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Breaking Gender Cliques at Work?
An anonymous reader asks: "No-one likes finding themselves being the 'odd one out' of a clique, and gender barriers make them harder to break. The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
I can already foresee the "Quit being nerds and actually try to talk to her" posts already.
:o
She won't bite.
Registered Linux user #421033
I would suggest getting a lawyer because you should be able to have several sexual harrassment suits on your hands, you won't need to work there much longer.
All kidding aside, I have worked several times where there was one girl who joined the crew. It never really made a difference to me, I didn't sit there with my other male co-workers and talk about how she didn't deserve to be here and had to prove herself worthy or anything crazy like that. I never did anything special to make her feel welcome, nor should I have had to.
I have been on the other side of it though, when I was hired as the only in-house developer for a company and I was pretty much the only guy in an office environment with about 10 ladies. I never really felt out of place, but I had to put on headphones to get any work done because all they did was yak and gossip all day...
If you want to be social with the guys, talk about cool technology, fun video games, military hardware, or the latest in high horsepower vehicles. (Come on, if you're in technology, you should be interested in at least some of those topics?) That should allow the guys to relax a bit and forget that you're female. Worst case, stay on the job long enough and they'll get to know you.
What? I wasn't going to say anything. (AKAImBatman tries to look innocent.)
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
there's only 1 thing anyone can really do to break through cliques no matter what the gender boundries... be friendly. If you want to incorporate yourself into a boys only group, just be friendly and courteous. Try to find opportunities to make conversation and joke around. IT and computer people are usually introverted and aren't used to conversing with people of the opposite gender (and lots of times with people of the same gender) so it will be usually up to you to break that barrier.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
For the gals: Just show up. Us guys in IT will be more than happy to have some women around.
For the guys: Dont try and hit on the women, and they will hang around more often and for longer.
This all seems pretty obvious.
Perhaps there really is no clique. I mean, are they telling you they don't want to talk to you? Do they completely ignore you whenever you try to talk to them? Or is it just that they have completely different interests, and don't talk about the same things as you. If all the guys at work talk about the previous night's baseball game every day, then try to watch it, or at least the highlights, or at least figure out who played and what the score was. They're not going to stop talking about the game, or start watching Star Trek instead, just because one employee doesn't like baseball. Where I work, most of us have kids, and talk about them. However there's people who don't have kids, and probably feel left out of the conversations, but that doesn't mean the rest of us are going to change our conversations just to suit them. However, if they start up an interesting topic, there's no reason we won't join in.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
This is the important question. A group of friends shouldn't have to change to accomodate someone - if someone wants to be a member, that person has to be the one to change.
I have found that girls mesh very easily with the boys, provided:
1) The girl isn't ditzy or an airhead. Now, a girl in IT is highly unlikely to be this way, but smart guys tend to like to be around other smart people.
2) A lot of guys don't like the girls around because they feel really uncomfortable that they might say "the wrong thing", and the next minute they are having a "sensitivity training" session with Human Resources. Don't be emo. Please. Take a joke for what it is - a joke - instead of taking it personally. Bonus points for telling a few yourself, it will help us relax.
3) Give it some time. Like anyone new to a group, there is going to be some discomfort while everyone figures out what kind of person you are.
4) Feminism is okay - Feminazi-ism is not.
5) If someone does something totally inappropriate - you know what I mean - feel free to follow the chain of command and get the other person in trouble. Don't go overboard though. There is nothing worse than someone who takes every little thing out of context in an attempt to be the victim.
At the last company I worked, there were two females hired in an otherwise all male IT department. One was something of a tomboy and she was instantly accepted as part of the group. GREAT sense of humor. The other was one of those types that would whine to HR the minute she thought something "inappropriate" was going on (and, honestly, it never was - we were pretty well behaved there). She ended up being the one noone talked to unless it was necessary - but, somehow, it was OUR fault.
That said, boys and girls ARE different. I don't see anything inherently wrong with single-gender groups. It's natural.
Love sees no species.
Though I'm not a computer scientist I am a mathematician, another field inhabited by nerds with a large ratio of men to women. While there are definatly tensions created by this ratio I have never seen the men try to exclude girls or form a clique and not let them in. However, often shyness or lack of social skills will be interpreted by a more socially competent girl as a form of exclusion.
So if you are a girl I sugest just going up to them and being friendly. Likely what seems like exclusion is really just fear of talking to a girl or fear of looking like they are trying to pick you up. Often the prettier the girl the more she will intimidate the guys and the less likely they are to initiate conversation. Also remember that many nerds dispense with conversational niceities and tend to just launch directly into subjects they are comfortable with in conversation.
Going the other direction the big thing to avoid doing is glooming the girl, that is making yourself overly friendly and following her around in the hope that she will like you and start dating you. It won't work and it will make her uncomfortable around her. If you want to pick up a girl in this sort of situation be friendly but do so in reasonable doses and don't push yourself on her. Leave when the conversation naturally dies and if she seems to be recipricating your interest you can ask her out but don't follow her around just because she is nice to you.
In other words treat the girl as just another one of the guys. Don't worship her and don't ignore her.
Unfortunatly the biggest reason for gender tension I have seen is the catch-22 many tech girls find themselves in of wanting to be polite to nice but clueless nerds and fending off advances. Often this can make girls feel like they are under seige and make spending time with their male colleagues feel like walking through a mine field. Most nerd girls just want to be one of the guys (figuratively) and not have to worry about akward advances.
If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:
There are certain No-Nos when it comes to IT guys.
1. Don't dress like a skank. It will remind them of girls they've seen in pornos, and they will be unable to speak (let alone think) in your presence. They also won't take you seriously or want to be your friend because you have presented yourself as out of their self-esteem league.
2. Don't talk about their interests if you don't want to hear their opinion. Don't start a conversation about Dungeons & Dragons unless you've brought your dice and have your character already started. Don't bring up William Shatner unless you want to talk about the differences between Star Trek III vs. Generations.
3. Don't pretend to know something you don't. If you try to debate the pros and cons of Linux when you've never even used it, these guys will know. These guys are the ultimate IT-lie detectors. It only takes one question to discover you know nothing about something you claimed to.
4. Don't take on the nerdiest guy and try to "break his shell." That shell has taken years to build up: years of bullying and swirlies, years of pirating software and music, and years of being pushed and locked in lockers. Puberty has destroyed their self-esteem, and you pushing to get to know them is going to make them crazy.
The big yes's:
1. Be yourself. The age-old adage rings true once again. The more exposure they get to a normal girl the better they will be with other girls.
2. Be approachable. Put a nice sign on your door reminiscent of the websites they frequent. "Come in and get to know me." "Send me an email if you want to chat." "Hi, I'm Audj."
3. Bring food. Cookies, pizza, and caffinated soda will make instant friends.
4. Be nice. If they're annoying, take a deep breath and say kindly, "Oh really?" Continue the conversation and remember that you're doing women around the world a favor by introducing them to the female gender.
...to add to this comment. You should rarely attribute malice to a lack of male interaction. It typically only occurs in those groups which are "girlie" men - those particularly proud of their looks or physical prowess (ie - those which act more like females in their social interactions). As Batman said, find some common interests with your coworkers. Look for an excuse to go out to lunch with the group, even if you don't say much. Personal connection is all you need to make to be accepted most of the time. If you must, bring in some "trinket" that you feel might be a common interest - novel, magazine without "orgasm" or a photograph of any hollywood star printed on the cover, electronic item with "geek" quality. iPods don't count.
A word of warning, though - do not go outside your comfort zone. If you're not a Monty Python fan, don't quote them. If you don't get jazzed over hot rods, don't discuss 'em. Don't take up golf just to get in the mix if you're not an athelete.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I'm the only girl (and the team lead) in an all-male IT department. I've honestly never had any issues; it really does tend to be the women who are more cliquish than the men. In my experience, the best bets are:
1) Never flirt. It's just bad news all around,and encourages the office males to view you as a sexual being instead of a coworker. Not good.
2) Be friendly and just hang out. Go for coffee if they ask, invite everyone out for after-work beers. Ask if anyone's going out for lunch so you can all go somewhere together.
3) Be good at what you do. Do your work with care and deliver what you promise. Nothing helps break down barriers in the office like proving your worth.
4) Don't try to bullshit your way past someone who knows more about a given area than you do. One of my team members runs circles around me when it comes to java, I kick his ass at perl; it's all give and take, and we both know it. I give him the respect he deserves for that and don't try to pretend to know more than he does about java, and he does the same for me. Though, I think this goes regardless of gender.
Having said that, there are still areas of discrimination out there. The most telling comment I got was from the HR rep that hired me for my current contract. Her comment was something along the lines of "When I ask the guys if you're any good, they just say 'Yes, she really knows her stuff. She's good at what she does.' I knew that meant you were exceptional, because they didn't qualify it with 'Yes, she's good, for a girl.'"
The fact that there's still that kind of mentality in some places is just disheartening.
Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
I think I must break something to women readers (I know, all two of them ...):
... complicated, isn't it?
;)]
You will *never* be "one of the guys".
The men may find you attractive. They may not find you attractive. They may or may not do anything with either reaction (other than mentally note it) but a reaction *will* be there.
There will be potential awkwardness and problems (and, of course, potential joys) that simply don't exist between coworkers of the same gender. That's just how it is.
None of this, of course, means that you can't be great friends and coworkers, have a great working relationship, etc. But that phrase ("one of the guys") always worries me. If the guys at work are telling dirty jokes to you / with you (and you are going along with because you want to be "one of the guys") they aren't experiencing it the same way as when they tell dirty jokes with the guys. They're getting an extra thrill out of talking dirty with a woman. Bonus points because she doesn't even realize it. Extra bonus points if you are unavailable or married.
Of course, the ones who seem the least uncomfortable or awkward, *by the "one of the guys" standard*, are the ones smoothest at fooling you
But what do I know, I'm just an old-fashioned fossil who thinks that women should be treated with extra decency and respect. It's precisely because of that that I am not going to pretend that they are "one of the guys".
[Now a bunch of guys are going to post that this is bunk, it's just me, that *they* can see you as just one of the guys. Take careful note - they're the ones you need to watch out for!
I've been that one woman in the office of men before and from what I've learned you are probably not nearly the outsider you imagine you are. Most geeks whether male or female share a lot of interests, so just be patient and be yourself. Probably the biggest thing they want is reassurance that if someone slips and says something "off-color" it won't result in some sort of "clamp down". If you can just be a geek among geeks everything will be fine, but it takes a little time to establish that.
Caveat Utilitor
Have you ever seen an athelete and a non-athelete try to pick up golf? The athelete will probably have a handicap in the mid-teens by the end of the first summer of casual play, the non-athelete will take three years of casual golf to break 100, if they ever do.
Playing golf is not atheletic like running triathalons requires, however it does require a certain amount of strength, flexibility, and body control to play well. At least, well enough not to make a fool of yourself in front of coworkers.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
I don't think there's any one particular difference between men and women in the workplace just because it's "IT", and the department is all guys and one girl, or vice versa. I've been in both situations, and in both situations it only matters whether you can suck it up and be a person and get over your own machoism or feminism enough to just relate to other *people*.
So, if you're the only girl in a group of guys at work, stop whining and worrying about what they must think of you. You're a girl, and as such you need to realize that most dudes really don't overanalyze every word, smirk, and tone of voice used in conversation. You girls tend to do that, generally, but us guys don't tend to do that, so stop worrying so much about it!
If you're the only dude in a group of females at work, don't try to worry about who said what like your female coworkers will tend to do. Don't be a flaming a--hole with your machoism, but instead realize that you're gonna have to be a bit more empathetic, a bit more caring, and a bit more nurturing than you would around your buddies while playing poker.
And to all the others that say "be friendly", I agree, but take it one step further - be-friend others. Don't just act nicey-nice to others to "break in" to their group. Actually be their friend.
...what is even more interesting is that the question was posed to slashdot users who are the very people that are seemingly incapable of having valid "normal" relationships. I mean, after all, most of the people here work in the IT/Computer Sciences industries and therefore would be the exact demographic the poster is referring to when questioning the social motivation of similar personalities in a group.
Anyway, irony aside, the problem is not limited souly to gender differences. People are intimidated and fearful of what they don't understand. If you are new to a group/department, you are not understood by existing members of said group. Therefore, it is not unreasonable at all to expect to be met with a certain level of trepidation towards interaction on a non-professional/work related level.
That being said, there are certain stigmas related to sexual harrassment in the work place and many guys have either experienced the short end of that stick first hand or known someone who had that luxury. The stigma comes from many of those incidents being unjustified or unfairly accusatory. The bigger problem lies in the fact that many, many guys out there have no confidence in HR or managements ability to decipher the clues as to what really happened and treat those involved fairly. What ends up happening is some poor schlub gets shafted because some girl turned on the waters works and put the fear of lawyers into management. So they do what they think they need to do to avoid an embarrassing public display which could affect the bottom line. Said guy goes down in flames and his co-workers hold a vigil for him at a local bar and one more chapter of G.R.O.S.S. forms and the stigma of girls in the workplace expands.
Is it fair? No, not necessarily but you can't blame people who are often pegged as being "annoying" or "socially inept" or "misunderstood" for being gun-shy in the face of such a situation. I have seen it happen and unfortunatly the good, talented and skilled girls pay for the poor behavior of the less desireable co-workers.
What can you do to get past that stigma? No need to be crude and discuss genitalia of either gender. You're defintly not a guy so don't act, dress, talk or behave like one. Don't even have any silly ideals, crusades or over-bearing group building efforts.
Simply be yourself. You want to be part of "the guys" then understand this. The only thing "the guys" are is a group of friends with common interests. The comfort zone doesn't come from those common interests but rather from the fact that they have been working together longer and have probably had some high stress situations where they had to put out a "fire" so to speak or meet an impossible deadline that required long hours. Those periods of high stress really show who's worth what and create bonding experiences because they all know they can rely on each other. It's got nothing to do with whether you have twigs and berries or not so don't make it about that.
Do what they all did. Be yourself, behave the way you would with your female friends. Certainly don't go with the gender specific stuff but when you are all talking about a song you like or a car you like or a restaurant you like, you are doing what the guys are doing. They just use different words and mannerism. Also, being yourself is important. Don't blend in, group dynamics thrive on diversity, not similarities. You bring something to the table that no one else can, YOU! So be you, you're the best one at being you. If you try to be someone else, you will never be as good at that.
Lastly, step up, learn your job and do it the best you can. If they ask for people to stay late to help with a project, volunteer. If they have a difficult project that no one wants to do, volunteer. If you see a problem that you have experience with fixing, get with someone, share your ideas and make it work. If you make yourself part of the professional team you will become part of the non-professional team...whether you like it or not.
Above all, HA
It's those damn jealous wives at home that wouldn't understand...
;)
They make our lives as female techies at the work level "lonely" because the guys get into trouble if they talk to us.. and *gasp* if we happened to go to lunch with the lot of them, we MUST be sleeping with them.
We, the female IT Personnel, are forbidden territory.
ESPECIALLY since we understand what the guys do and their wives have NO clue.
I mean, what guy wouldn't want to be able to talk about their job and be understood for once!!
We are just plain dangerous to all the females in their lives...
Even if we are married or have a SO.
Kris
(bitterly aware of this issue from numerous experiences)
Remember when Windows were washed, mice were trapped and UNIX guarded the harem?
Which is that all that has to happen is the person has to "feel uncomfortable" -- that's it. It doesn't matter why they felt uncomfortable, whether misunderstood something they overheard, or even if their reaction makes any sense. When you set the bar that low (and we're approaching the Orwellian "thought crime"-level here in the States) a guy has every reason to avoid any interaction with women in the workplace.
I myself go out of my way to avoid eye contact with female employees when walking down the hallway. I do not attend group social events where women will be present, nor will I sit at a table in the breakroom where women are sitting.
They may feel ostracized or unwanted, but that's their bad luck. I have a family to support and a life to live.
Want to get along with "the boys", then act just like one of the boys. I've seen this work for my old girlfriend, who was fairly outgoing and not too attractive. It might not work if you are overly attractive, as geeks tend to be nervous around really good-looking members of the appropriate gender. I also worked with a very attractive software engineer at Intel (Hi Stacy!) who made a point of mentioning her boyfriend whenever we got into non-technical discussions; it helps to put others at ease if they know you're already spoken for. Other than that, if you're not fitting in, it's probably because you're holding yourself apart from others, not because they don't want to be your friend.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
A lot of posts have mentioned thing about worries due to sexual harassment problems. The 2 most well adjusted females in our IT department have managed to fit in pretty well pretty quickly. Whether intentionally or more likely just because of their nature they made it very obvious where they stood on sexual harassment issues. Some dirty jokes, lots of hanging out and BSing and it became pretty evident what you could or couldn't do.
Make it obvious, or even flat out state it. I will be annoyed and speak with you first if you do ??? and if you don't stop, I'll bring it up with management. If you do ??? It's going to management right away. Draw your line in the sand on what you will and won't accept. Some people think boundaries were made to be broken, but most of us are pretty content as long as we know where we stand and what we can get away with safely.
On a similar note, never date a co-worker, especially in the same department. I've seen it happen many times, and only once it didn't end very badly for everybody involved. It can hurt your career.
On a more general note, just be yourself. Find out what the cliques are, I'm probably in the gamer, geek, jetskiier & IT guys who have been around a long time cliques (each one has at least 1 female that I'd include as part of the clique). In each of the cliques, I have something in common with the other members, and more often than not we end up talking about stuff relating to the clique.
You may or may not end up having anything in common with the cliques, and it's probably best to not force yourself into them. If people are a gearhead clique, and your not at all into automotive stuff, trying to hang out with them will just end up making you feel like a 3rd wheel to both sides.
Find people who have something in common with you, often just being a fellow IT person can be enough. Be yourself, and let people know who you are and where you stand.
There are some people that are afraid of sexual harassment, and I suppose that some people are deathly afraid of it. (Like the friend of mine who is convinced that any woman on the street will accuse him of being her baby-daddy to get child support.) These people are afraid of everything and you don't want to hang out with them anyway...
... about how she felt about the day, about how so-and-so would look better in nicer clothes, etc.
Most likely though, you've just got to learn that male bonding is different from female bonding...
At my office, my goal for the day is to get as much work done with the least amount of communication with others as I can get away with. Unless the interaction is about something cool they found. Even then, tell the story and then get the hell out of my office - I got stuff to do.
When my wife started a new job last week, she complained that she now had an office (as opposed to the cube farm) and didn't have anyone to talk to anymore. So now she comes home and talks to me
We are both engineers, and both like similar things (she is a big SciFi fan) - we just talk about different things. I talk about things (which bores her to tears), and she talks about people (which bores me to tears).
I would simply assume that they aviod you because they avoid everyone not immediately needed for their current task. If they aren't talking about work, my bet is they are telling stories about getting too trashed at a LAN party. My suggestion is to simply understand these differences and play off of them.
#1 - Don't be offended by their stories.
#2 - Don't interrupt them when they are busy
#3 - They don't even know what feelings are, much less how to talk about them
#4 - Realize that 99% of non-informational conversation between men are dick size conversations... ie. this new Video Card makes my dick [n] larger than yours - my car has 50 more HP than yours - etc. Ok, not technically comparing dick size (I wouldn't recommend that conversation) but just male posturing to see how much cooler you are than he is.
#5 - The other 1% of male conversation is about Greedo shooting first. So know your Star Wars trivia. Wikipedia means you don't even have to watch it...
I mean, the entire basis for affirmative action is that certain identifiable groups are inherently disadvantaged when it comes to performing certain jobs
That is incorrect, in fact you've got it spetacularly backwards.
The basis for 'affirmative action' is that one group has historically been descrimated against (due to race, visible physical disability, gender, sexual preference, religion, etc.) despite not being any less able to do the job than other groups, not because they are disadvantaged in some way that makes them less able to perform certain jobs.
"The question is simple: what can a girl in IT do when she finds herself on the outside of those cliques of boy coworkers? Or inversely, what should groups of boys at work be doing to be more welcoming for that lone girl in the IT office?"
;)
I am one of those IT rarities - a female. And from my experience, this is my attempt to answer the question.
If you are a woman on the outside of the clique you are there for one of two reasons: Either these are men that don't believe a women can't perform in this field or they simply don't know how to respond to women, seeing as they are so frequently (sarcasm) working with them. If you are on the outside for the first reason, chances are you won't win them over at all, but if you do, it will be by showing them you know what you are doing and that you are not a bumbling, ditzy 'girl' hired to fill a quota. In this day and age though, I would hope it is the latter. Don't try to join the clique just to join the clique; do it because you have common interests and could actually have conversations with these guys on the same level. If you are trying to get in, maybe you should approach the group about doing lunch. If you feel isolated, then try to do something about it. If it fails, well at least you tried. You can't rely on them to approach you.
To the men - if she is an IT 'girl,' chances are she is not like most women anyways. I have actually found that I share more opinions with men than I do women. I myself tend to see many women as annoying, and ditzy and overtly obsessed with shopping and with whom I have nothing in common. However, the women I have met in my field, tend to be different. They are less petty and easier to talk with and who actually know their s***. If you get any impression she is like me, she should be easily approachable and easy to include in the group. Despite many previous posts to the contrary, chances are she wants to be treated as "one of the guys". And you may be suprised to find out, that its not that hard to do.
On the other hand though, being women in a male-dominated field does put some on the defensive (as the lawsuits would imply). I would have to agree with most of the previous posts about approaching her as a group or sending out the e-mail to do lunch. Lunch is a great ice breaker. If I was worried about being hit on, I would feel less intimidated by this approach. And to women in this position - calm down. Not every guy who approaches you is trying to get in your pants. Even though I am sure the thought may have crossed their mind at least once.
People on both sides of this gender thing just need to lighten up. Learn to relax. Thats probably a key thing to trying to include yourself/'the girl' in the group.
Any time you're the newbie in the group, it takes a while to figure out the social situation and build relationships with people, and while we should have gotten over this as a society, I suppose that's still harder if you're female. Sigh. Working with more mature people usually helps, and working with geeks can be ok if you're the type that shares geeky interests. Fortunately, as a newbie in an organization, there are *lots* of things to initiate conversations with people about if you need an excuse to do that, ranging from what's going on with your projects to where the staplers are to how the bureaucracies work to where people go out for lunch.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
Dude, he said feminists not lesbians!!1
p.s. I was going to say either "none" (citing lack of oxygen) or "Get your mind out of the gutter."
How is this modded "informative"?? Where is the information? I see an AC story with no names, places, or otherwise informative content--just a bullshit yarn that anyone with training in HR, management, or the law can see is exagerrated or made up entirely.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
For starters, referring to them as girls and boys is not a good start. Shows an unprofessional bias on the part of the submitter.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"Guys usually interact with others they feel comfortable with rather than explicitly ostracising others. "
That's how the worst high-school Heathers usually describe their own ostracism of others; they just aren't comfortable with the losers. Hell, it's how the British Raj and the East Coast WASP establishment usually described their chokehold on power: they just chose to interact with those "like us" rather than "not like us". Having this view of one's group doesn't prove anything about the group.
It does suggest that the group has enough power to not have to think about how power is divided, though. It's comfy to be the default case, like being IBM when "no-one was ever fired for buying IBM."
------
Incidentally, note that three of your four social topics (which I agree would work in most places) have not just techie content but I'm-aggressive content: they're useful for showing that the speaker is masculine-by-our-current-standards. If the social flow was just about proving how techie one was, pure science would be just as useful as a 'geek marker'. It isn't (we apparently think of scientists as asexual). Medical tech is pretty amazing, too, but doesn't have that locker-room flava.
In my kindly, forgiving moments, I assume that this sekret boyz club is due to pallid desk workers' worry over their own health and masculinity. When aggressive, I suspect that it's there exactly to make women "not like us", just as talk about polo and yachting can be used to shut newcomers out of the upper class.
Yes, because what YOUR HUSBAND does is the OP's friggin fault.
Unless you are here slamming your own brother or father or husband, how the fuck does your rant have anything to do with OP?
Fix your own shit. Don't bring your problems to work, and and deal with the job like everybody else. If you let your personal life interfere just (like booze, coke, meth, weed, or KIDS) it will cause problems. OP made sacrifices in their personal life for his job, as is their choice to do. I make sacrifices in my personal life for my job, as is my choice. If you make a different choice, don't expect to get handed the golden path to vice-President. Just be happy you could balance your life the way you wanted and you could spend time with your kids and STFU. Cuz that's the choice you made.
For fucks sake you are getting angry cuz the chocolate cake you ordered wasn't bannana.
My tip? If you're a guy working in a group with all guys and one female, DON'T use your meeting time to show your groupmates some porn you thought was "really awesome." I wish I could say I was joking, but this actually happened to me (the only saving grace is that this happened when I was still in school, not at work, but still).
Fitting in when you're a girl in an all-male environment can be tougher than a lot of guys would think, especially if you're not used to being "one of the guys." In my experience, it's easier to be "one of the group" if you eat lunch with your co-workers or go to happy hour with them. If they don't invite you directly but you hear them talking about it, then fish for an invitation. Be friendly and social.
The bonus is that there usually are other girls present at happy hour unless it's just your group going, so you don't get that weird "I'm the only girl here and they're all acting weird because of me" feeling. Be prepared that you may have to subtly move the topic of conversation away from sports.
Guys: be friendly to the new hires, whether they be female or male. Despite what you may think, you can say "hi" to your female co-workers without quaking in fear of a sexual harassment lawsuit. Just stay away from the porn, and you're good.
Then again maybe some men need to move the center of their attention from their groin to their brain.
It's funny how much I hear this from women who have no idea what it's like to be men. Did you know that, unlike you who become sex-craving (to be frank but polite about it) during a biological cycle or due to emotional stimuli, men's hormones flow all the time. Many of us would really prefer our eyes not be drawn away by the sight of a woman's torso, but that's the way our biology works. We're programmed to seek out and recognize possible mates. We only view women as sex objects if they appear to want us to view them that way, or if we truly are unusually chauvinistic.
Now however, I shall turn the onus back upon you. Dress to work, not to arouse! If you don't, you have no excuse with which to blame us for our captivity to biology. How can you dress for work? I have a simple heuristic definition for you: if the average male can look at you without losing his concentration to your body or becoming sexually aroused, you're decent. No need for ankle-length dresses or burquas.
I've heard women say that showing cleavage is just what makes them comfortable. I for one call that feminine wankage and won't put up with it. I shouldn't be looking at your body, because it shouldn't be exposed.
I initiate conversations, take a no-shit stance when meeting someone I haven't met before, and have no problem calling department meeting. I can talk sports when the topic's not work, and throw out bitingly sarcastic remarks with the best of 'em. In other words, I don't act like a meek little girl standing in a corner with my toes pointed inward all shy and waiting to be noticed. I basically act like a more feminine version of one of the guys without sacrificing my femininity. I dress very girly and am a lady in manners, though more masculine in mannerisms. It's a balancing act all but perfected by years of growing up in dresses while spending a lot of time with a dad who coached sports and played baseball himself and a brother who played sports, as well as studying martial arts with a group of guys. I am not afraid of guys (unless I'm attracted to him, in which case I'm the biggest wuss in the world). Simply being timid is probably the best way to become the one overlooked. Confidence gets you in the club.
It's a girl!
Suddenly I thought I was reading a comment from an altogether different Slashdot. How did this post get through Slashdots lame-posts-only filter?
Fordiman, your view is truely insightful, <cliché> had I mod points I would mod you up </cliché>.
My office has a 60/40 male to female ratio. Not that anyone is counting; as you say, we're all co-workers, and as is right in this elightened millienium, gender is irrelevent. We all get on with each other, and even socially it's a complete mix of genders (and orientation).
Maybe this gender divide thing is only prevalent in US offices?
-Jar.
Together, We Can Make Slashdot Better. I Do NOT Mod ACs. - Check Me Out
I have been the only woman many times in an IT department. You learn to talk sports (guy talk) and not take offense at things that are not sexual harassment.
But quite a few of these answers show why there is sexual harrasment rules.
Treating any co-worker like a person is a good start. You don't have to be a jerk.
An easy way to think about what you are saying is would you say this to your Mother or Grandmother and not get your mouth washed out with soap? Or how would you feel if someone said that to your girlfriend or boyfriend or your mother?
OMFG! Do you guys ever bother to listen to yourselves?
Some of the comments in this thread have been helpful and interesting, but the level of misogyny is shocking.
I am probably more introverted than most of the people around here, and that is really saying something. As such, I have zero prospects for getting a date. I will live, grow old, and die alone. I would like nothing more to have a wife and kids but that does not appear to be an option. Those aspects of life which other people seemingly take for granted are read-only for me.
That said, I do not fear, loathe or hate women the way some of you guys seem to. Women are indeed different from men. However they are not an alien species, nor are they infected with cooties. All this talk of feminazis and suggestions that all women are manipulative and would not hestitate to use bogus sexual harassment claims to get ahead is truly offensive.
We are all adults here (biologically, if not emotionally) and some of you guys need to start acting like ones. (Queue obligatory you must be new here comments). We have all got mothers , grandmothers, sisters, aunts and cousins who are female. Unless your family is truly dysfunctional, I doubt that you would claim that all of your female relatives are scheming, manipulative feminazis. As such, I find it hard to understand how you can generalize the behaviour of a few individuals to an entire group.
Gents, the office is not a locker room. We are supposed to be professionals and pr0n, inappropriate comments and behaviour have no place in a professional environment. The server room is not a private tree-house with a "no girls allowed" sign on the front door either.
I have found that if you treat people with the same degree of politeness and respect that you would like to be shown, they will respond accordingly. As a very shy person, it takes a long time for me to get to know and trust strangers to the point that I can be friendly with them, but I can always be polite. Good manners cost me nothing at all, and people tend to respond in kind.
Some of the misogynist comments are certainly attempts a humour or overt flamebait, but I get the impression that some of you are serious. You are giving fellow nerds a bad reputation.
I cannot get a date because I am socially inept, but I can take some solace that I am in better shape than those of you who fear and hate women.
(BTW - I posted this anonymously because I moderated some comments in this thread)
Also, -1 Flamebait to this article for assuming that being the 'only one' is a girl-only problem. Any new job comes with that feeling. It's just amplified when you're outside of your gender pool. Get over it, and get to work.
Indeed! Try being a male in education. Or in child care! Guys may think the new girl is hot, but I'd rather be gawked at than feared as an potential molestor or rapist!!
You're right. The girl techie can add panache to the department, bring that mod-squad-csi hip and mysterious thing to the server-room inner circle. The guys will like you if you're smart, if you contribute in substantive ways, if you're not reluctant to admit when you're wrong, or afraid to get your hands dirty running cable, if you are loyal, relate well with others, if you make the dept. look good to the suits--and--sorry--if you care about your appearance at least once every other week. Of course there are the occasional dix who will try to put you down, humiliate you in public, leave you out of the loop, discredit you, take credit for your work, etc., just because you're a girl. You need to play your cards carefully with these folks, strategize, be patient, don't be too quick to rise to the bait, don't seem defensive, but definitely be assertive and demand respect.