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Robocabs Coming to Europe

Roland Piquepaille writes "Almost all of us can recall both good and poor memories of taxi rides when we arrived in a city we didn't know. This is why a short article from Spiegel Online, 'Bringing Robot Transportation to Europe,' caught my eye this morning. It briefly describes the European 'CityMobil' project which involves 28 partners in 10 countries at a cost of €40 million. This project plans to eliminate city drivers and three trial sites have already been selected. For example, in 2008, Terminal 5 in London's Heathrow airport will be connected to the car park by driverless electric cars along a 4-kilometer track. Read more for additional pictures and references about this project to make the roads in Europe's cities more efficient."

176 comments

  1. Robo-what? by vistic · · Score: 2, Funny

    Did anyone else read that as "Robocrabs" and imagine some nasty STD of the future?

    1. Re:Robo-what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, but I did read:

      Roland Piquepaille writes:

      "Here's a link to a story that I found. My blog entry is fucking useless, as 90% of it is the quoted article, but here'$ a link to it anyhow."

    2. Re:Robo-what? by Simon80 · · Score: 1

      I read it as robocops, lol..

    3. Re:Robo-what? by sanoBabun+httpishwo- · · Score: 1


      aren't there enough appus around ?

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      -- sig
    4. Re:Robo-what? by croddy · · Score: 1

      all i can think of is douglas quaid ripping the head off the johnnycab.

    5. Re:Robo-what? by johansalk · · Score: 1

      Nah. They never think of it; no one has a chance of getting an STD here.

    6. Re:Robo-what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're not the only one.

    7. Re:Robo-what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey asshole, that was Arnold!

    8. Re:Robo-what? by FusionDragon2099 · · Score: 1

      It's nothing compared to Electro-Gonhorrea, the Noisy Killer.

    9. Re:Robo-what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, that was Arnold, wasn't it... but what was his character's name... hmm... I can't quite remember.. was it?-- wait, was it... DOUGLAS QUAID?!

      Numbnuts.

  2. haha it is true! by macaulay805 · · Score: 4, Funny

    In Soviet Russia, car drives you!

    1. Re:haha it is true! by Sillygates · · Score: 1

      I'm failing to see how this is an electric car system, they just seem to be less efficient, smaller airport tram cars. Am I missing something?

      --
      I fear the Y2038 bug
  3. I totally remember something like this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    "You're in a JohnnyCab!"

    1. Re:I totally remember something like this! by voice_of_all_reason · · Score: 2, Funny

      'rop me orf a mah hice ear the tar London.

      "I'm sorry, could you please restate your desination!"

    2. Re:I totally remember something like this! by xanthines-R-yummy · · Score: 1

      Meh. That's pretty good. You should've titled your post as "I totally recall somthing like this!"

    3. Re:I totally remember something like this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      first thing I thought about when I saw this. Total Recall.

    4. Re:I totally remember something like this! by dswensen · · Score: 1

      "How do they work?"

      "The door opens... you get in." *rolls eyes*

    5. Re:I totally remember something like this! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'm sure you can remember it for him wholesale?

    6. Re:I totally remember something like this! by Stonent1 · · Score: 1

      "Hell of a day, isn't it?" Then you answer and it rolls its eyes.

      Johnny Cab

  4. When you pay the fare it says by BeeBeard · · Score: 1

    "Thank you, for you're cooperation."

    1. Re:When you pay the fare it says by PoprocksCk · · Score: 3, Funny

      You're welcome. And yes, I am cooperation.

    2. Re:When you pay the fare it says by BeeBeard · · Score: 1

      It's a dark day when a man can't cut and paste a simple Roboquote off of some randomly googled fansite without fear of grammatical errors.

    3. Re:When you pay the fare it says by TCM · · Score: 1

      It would help if he himself could write the language. Then he could correct it and not have fear.

      --
      Of course it runs NetBSD. BTC: 1NT7QvbetmANwaMzhpVL6
    4. Re:When you pay the fare it says by cparker15 · · Score: 1

      You know, I have been wondering this for the longest time. How do you cut and paste from a Web site? I can only ever seem to copy and paste...

      --
      Have you driven a fnord... lately?

      You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.

    5. Re:When you pay the fare it says by nacturation · · Score: 1

      You know, I have been wondering this for the longest time. How do you cut and paste from a Web site? I can only ever seem to copy and paste...

      That explains why the Wikiquotes site has been getting shorter and shorter...

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  5. Arnold by andrewman327 · · Score: 1
    Ever seen "Total Recall"?


    "[...] driverless electric cars along a 4-kilometer track."
    How is this different than EWR's monorail or other systems? I fail to see how this is a true automated cab system.

    --
    Information wants a fueled airplane waiting at the hangar and no one gets hurt.
    1. Re:Arnold by timeOday · · Score: 1
      How is this different than EWR's monorail or other systems?
      I don't know about EWR, but this appears to be a point-to-point system, which navigates to where you select instead of having preset routes and switchovers. And it means you ride by yourself (or company of your choosing) instead of 60 anonymous people. Incidentally, eliminating the "mass" from "mass transit" also makes a much smaller target for terrorism.
    2. Re:Arnold by kfg · · Score: 1

      They've invented the MIT Model Railroad Club.

      KFG

    3. Re:Arnold by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      How is this different than EWR's monorail or other systems?


      This system will allow you to gawk at a chick with three boobs while you ride.
    4. Re:Arnold by Barryke · · Score: 2, Informative
      Not exactly a cab, but also an interesting automated transport system:

      Phileas is the name of a new public transport system which is developed and built in Eindhoven (the Netherlands) by APTS. It is an electrically driven road vehicle with properties of a bus, tram or metro system. It allows several driving modes found in these vehicles:
      • Manual control with the use of gas pedal, brake and steering wheel as in a normal bus.
      • Semi-automatic control with computer controlled lateral tracking as in a tram or metro. The Phileas' electronic navigation system is guided here by a chain of magnetic bars hidden in the road surface.
      • Fully automatic control which additionally controls speed and smooth 'landing' and departing at bus stops. In this mode the drivers' main task is the supervision of the system and to take over control when necessary. (i actualy did see one read the newspaper while driving..)
      The Phileas has an electronic lane assistance and precision docking system, which can be used on routes specifically prepared for this purpose. In these routes, a trail of magnetic reference markers will be laid in the road surface.

      http://www.apts-phileas.com/
      (checkout Concept and Infrastructure)

      http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phileas_(OV) (dutch)
      --
      Hivemind harvest in progress..
    5. Re:Arnold by rapidweather · · Score: 1
      Of course the Walt Disney World Monorail System is not pilotless, but can be a thrill to ride on.
      Late at night, when the Park is closing down, visitors are shuttled back to their parking lots to go to their cars and go home.
      Aware that everyone wants to go home now, the Pilots really punch the throttle on the monorails to get that accomplished.


      Hang on to your hat! They'll show you what these babies can really do!



      Great fun for everyone.

    6. Re:Arnold by buswolley · · Score: 1

      Thank you for being the first intelligent post.

      --

      A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.

    7. Re:Arnold by Bryansix · · Score: 1

      This describes Personal Rapid Transit. The system at London Heathrow is will be called ULTRa. The difference is that the terminals where you enter and exit the cars are off the main roadway. This way you can get to where you are going but nobody else needs to stop to let you off. Your car simply exits the roadway to a station or terminal and then once you depart it waits for a new passenger. If one does not come in a specified time or if another car is already waiting then it jumps back on the roadway in the next open slot between cars. This is much more effecient then a monorail where you have to wait for the train to come back by your station and then you have to stop at every station between where you got on and where you are going.

    8. Re:Arnold by Zzootnik · · Score: 1

      Actually, I keep thinking of something else I saw a WDW-- or at least Epcot. I haven't been there in I don't know how many years, but at the time, it was called "Weedway". Basically just a series of Small 2-4 person electric teacup-sized enclosed seats that ran along an elevated track at something slightly faster than a brisk walking pace. If they enclosed them just a bit more to cut down on wind resistance (so they could pick up a bit more speed), I can easily see these things taking off-- as soon a some big metro actually installs a set...

      --
      Sig currently under construction. Mind the gap....
  6. Ineffective by bendodge · · Score: 0

    Robot taxis have to be able to drive. So far, only a few cars have been able to do that, and that was in the desert with a truck-sized load of equipment. So don't expect them soon.

    --
    The government can't save you.
  7. The future is here by lazybratsche · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think this marks the point where the future is right now. Or will be in three years. If it works. Hopefully. Either way, at least in principle, automated traffic like this could be faster, safer, and more effecient. And if this particular project doesn't work out as hoped, the next one will.

    1. Re:The future is here by Killshot · · Score: 1

      No, the future will never be right now.

    2. Re:The future is here by MustardMan · · Score: 1

      Maybe next to a black hole...

  8. Packet Networks by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    I'd love to see tests of robocars on subway tracks. Start with just GPS on the usual cars, to integrate live positioning into the signaling/switching system. Then put GPS on some empty cars steered from the central signaling/switching control stations. Then let people request destinations from originating stations. First big chains of cars carrying people between their shared endpoints. Then little individual cars between points. At first filling the spaces between traditional trains on traditional lines.

    Eventually the "circuit switched" subways will be replaced with much more efficient, safe packet switched trains. Which link up along their shared segments for greater efficiency, but connect custom paths on demand.

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    make install -not war

    1. Re:Packet Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hey da vinci, Do you plan on harnessing the suns power to run the transceivers need in each car? You are under how man kilo's of pipe and dirt?

    2. Re:Packet Networks by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Hey AC, you're redundant.

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      --
      make install -not war

    3. Re:Packet Networks by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1
      I'd love to see tests of robocars on subway tracks.
      You mean like line 14 of the Paris metro?

      From the article:

      It was the first automated line of Paris Métro. Before being put into commercial service, it was known by its project name, Meteor, an acronym of Métro Est-Ouest Rapide.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    4. Re:Packet Networks by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Yes, exactly like that, to start. NYC would also like "therefore it is often the only line to run normally during labor strikes", especially after the last strike that gained little while covering the MTA management's $1BILLION theft while raising fares again.

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      make install -not war

  9. Along a track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You mean, like trains and subways?

    1. Re:Along a track? by kfg · · Score: 2, Funny

      You mean, like trains and subways?

      With sufficient research ( and government grants) scienctists hope to invent something they call a "trolley," although I think the idea is perhaps too futuristic and we aren't ready for it.

      KFG

    2. Re:Along a track? by Peyna · · Score: 1

      So, are places like Dayton that still have electric (trackless) trolleys ahead or behind the times?

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      What?
    3. Re:Along a track? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering it's in Ohio and no one wants to live there, I'll say behind.

    4. Re:Along a track? by kfg · · Score: 1

      Dayton exists in an alternate universe, where the laws of time and space as the rest of us understand them do not apply.

      KFG

    5. Re:Along a track? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2

      nope. trains and subways transport groups of people, not individuals. This means they have to run along a corridor and to a schedule. This system transports individuals, which means it can run on a grid network rather than just a corridor, which means the system can take you directly where you want to go rather than having to change lines.

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      Deleted
    6. Re:Along a track? by Kasis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, along a track, like a taxi cab. Err... And between two predefined points, like a cab... Taxis are exactly like trains you know :)

    7. Re:Along a track? by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      I know that some cities have automated trains and/or subways, but in NYC the subways still have drivers and (I'm giggling) conductors. Yes, people who stare out the side of the train and close the doors... gotta love unions. Door closing technology will someday improve to where it is safe enough to replace the manual switch, I guess. Then maybe they'll be able to get rid of elevator operators, too. :)

      The funny thing is, the trains operated by Port Authority at JFK and Newark airports are 100% automated. The commuter rail systems running into NYC are even worse, with multiple conductors walking down the aisles manually collecting paper tickets and punching holes in them! I'd point to the DC Metro as an example of how this could be done efficiently without conductors.

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  10. You're in a Johnny Cab ... by willtsmith · · Score: 1

    I wonder if it will have an animatronic driver with minimal voice recognition just like the movie. ;-)

    --
    -------- -------- Support Wesley Clark for president!!!
  11. GPS - Eh? by reality-bytes · · Score: 1

    A spanner in the works of your plan...

    GPS tends to be a non-starter in subways or any covered area ;-)

    --
    Ripping an new rectum in the fabric of spacetime.
    1. Re:GPS - Eh? by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Yes, you're right. I used GPS without thinking about the coverage.

      NYC subways are outdoors quite a bit, outside Manhattan. Under cover they can use other location tech.

      The subways should use realtime location data anyway, so we can look at realtime maps and ETA estimates to plan our trips.

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      make install -not war

  12. I, for one... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... welcome our new taxi-driver robot overlords!

    Just hope they don't use Vista for voice recognition, or it will drive you to your aunt's house, instead of your mom's.

  13. Total Recall by FalconDelta · · Score: 1

    "You're in a Johnny Cab" While I doubt the cabs envisioned in this plan will possess the enraged mind of a serial killer like in the movie, and by serial killer I'm referring to corrupt and otherwise mysterious government or non-government agencies, I'm not sure what advantage they're going to have over other forms of transportation. I think the cabs might be a good idea if they were servicing people who were going to many different destinations - why do we take real cabs? because we're not always going to the same place that the bus or train is going to. I think the real advantage of this system would be to allow users to access many destination points along a given track. But the shortness of this track, as well as the limited number of destinations, makes me wonder why someone thought that little pod-cars would be better than a train/monorail as others have suggested. The pod-cars are cool enough, but let's build a city around them, not just a single end-to-end terminal run!

  14. Already done by dayid · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So you mean by 2008 we'll have reverted back to trollies and cable-cars? Perhaps people will even ride in electric vehicles that carry 30 or more people! Then everyone can get there for a tenth of the price! Oh wait, no that's a bus...

    1) Take age old idea.
    2) Do the same thing only with added benefit of key words.
    3) Sell it as a new idea
    4) Get fools to buy it.
    5) PROFIT!!

    Yeah, that's right, no "?????" step here.

    1. Re:Already done by evil+agent · · Score: 2, Informative
      So you mean by 2008 we'll have reverted back to trollies and cable-cars? Perhaps people will even ride in electric vehicles that carry 30 or more people! Then everyone can get there for a tenth of the price! Oh wait, no that's a bus...

      For God's sake, you didn't have to even have to RTFA. All you had to do was read the summary:

      This project plans to eliminate city drivers

      I don't know where you live, but I haven't seen many trollies, cable-cars, buses, cabs, trains, or really any vehicles that are driver-less.

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      End transmission.
    2. Re:Already done by kfg · · Score: 1

      4) Get fools to buy it.
      5) PROFIT!!


      The great thing is that in 50 years you'll be able to sell the same fools cabs again, then trollies, then cabs, then. . .

      All my life's a circle, sunrise and sundown. . .

      KFG

    3. Re:Already done by wwwillem · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I don't know where you live, but I haven't seen many trollies, cable-cars, buses, cabs, trains, or really any vehicles that are driver-less.


      Don't know where you live :), but many US airports nowadays (Denver, Atlanta spring to mind) have a no-driver subway system to interconnect the terminals. Or the light-rail that interconnects SFO with the rental car garage. Those systems run pretty smooth. I personally trust a computer more to "stop for a red signal" than a driver, that maybe had a fight with his dear one the night before.


      For the rest this topic is IMHO pretty much crap, because a taxi brings you from anyware to anyware and even more from door to door. Don't think that these pilot projects are getting anyware close to that. What most airports need is a railway connection with the downtown they belong to. But because all around the world the taxi operators (not the drivers but the license holders) are one big mafia with good connections into local politics, that hardly happens anywhere.


      Yes, I know the many exceptions (Amsterdam, Tokio, Heathrow), but I know 10x more cities (Singapore, Toronto, La Guardia, Denver, Vancouver, Mexico City, etc.) where you can absolutely forget it to have decent public transport from the airport to city center. In many of those cities a subway/metro/lightrail system comes even close to the airport, but just doesn't bridge the gap of "the last mile".

      --
      Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
    4. Re:Already done by drsquare · · Score: 1
      Then everyone can get there for a tenth of the price! Oh wait, no that's a bus...

      You haven't been on a bus lately...
    5. Re:Already done by Hadlock · · Score: 1

      you can add DFW airport and the Miami, FL financial district to that list. The latter has been running for close to a decade now. i once saw a trolly open and close it's doors 20 times in a row due to a bug in the software, but other than that it's pretty freaking great. dfw's trolly system was just installed a year or two ago... but i've never used/seen it, despite flying from dallas to miami twice a year. maybe i'm just in the wrong parts of the terminal(s).

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    6. Re:Already done by brainburger · · Score: 1

      The Docklands Light Railway in London is driverless. It is a fairly complicated network too. http://www.tfl.gov.uk/dlr/pdf/network/zones.pdf

    7. Re:Already done by DDLKermit007 · · Score: 1

      Fine by me personaly. I can reliably get to places quicker by well done public transport in cities like San Francisco & LA. Good public transport is FAR better than the current system of everybody hop in thier car and scramble from generally the same location to a destination thats usualy in the same general area. I live in Las Vegas and I try to not leave the house from the hours 6am-9am and 4pm-7pm. Having to get around by car here is horrid and the transit system is abysmal for being a "tourist hot-spot." This project however looks like pork. It's a flipping train system for 1-6 people at a time it looks like. You get the negaives of a public tansit system with little energy efficiency.

    8. Re:Already done by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      ...For the rest this topic is IMHO pretty much crap, because a taxi brings you from anyware to anyware ..
      --
      In NYC only if you speak Urdu.

  15. A more insightful article.. by rufusdufus · · Score: 4, Informative

    I found a more insightful article that explains the advantage of this system over existing airport shuttle systems:
    The difference for passengers will be not so much the journey time - which will be about four minutes - but how long they have to wait. Instead of huddling under a shelter for as long as 20 minutes as they currently do waiting for a bus, the pod will be at most a minute away.

    1. Re:A more insightful article.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No kidding. Why the hell is slashdot linking to Piquepaille's blog? All he does is quote the article he links to. A link to another article (such as your link) might have been a lot more useful.

      He's an advertising whore, and deserves to be pointed out as such every time his "submission" appears on slashdot.

    2. Re:A more insightful article.. by Kasis · · Score: 1

      That makes more sense.

      So what happens when two planes land and 200 people are waiting to get to the car park? Will there be 50 pods arriving within a minute?

    3. Re:A more insightful article.. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      Compare with the bus in the same situation. 20 minutes wait and only handles 40 people per trip. 100 minutes later...

      The performance of the system depends on the numbers of pods and the numbers of berths in the stations. If there aren't enough pods, buy some more. The nice thing is that the incremental cost of a pod is a fraction of that of a bus.

      In reality people have to wait for their luggage, go to the loo, go have a coffee, take a taxi, get picked up or take the train to the city centre. They rarely go do exactly the same thing at exactly the same time.

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      Deleted
    4. Re:A more insightful article.. by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      And bus load times are the pits at airports. It takes forever at each gate to pick everyone up since they all have luggage. By the time you've stopped at every gate, your travel time is much greater than 4 minutes!

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    5. Re:A more insightful article.. by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      There's actually some open-source simulations out there of that kind of situation. One of them is iTS, which wasn't too hard to use.

      Anyway, it's not too bad. It depends on the size of the system and number of cars, and the number of ports available for loading. It can beat typical shuttles fairly easily, though of course there will be wait times. Airports don't actually seem that bad; there's enough steps involved that there's always a stream of people moving about, the people from one plane are quickly dispersed. A more challenging situation is something like a stadium game letting out, when you really get huge numbers of people leaving at exactly the same time. But of course, no system works very well in that case.

  16. annoying. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's not a taxi at all. it's a 4 km. rail. last time i rode a taxi, i gave the driver an address and the driver took me there, then i paid. this won't do any such thing, therefore to mr. european designer i have to say : YOU FAIL IT!!

  17. Fuck Roland Piquepaille by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    And the blog he rode in on.

  18. How is this not just a fancy commuter rail? Am I missing something?

    1. Re:Er.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This lets you avoid people better.

  19. Re:another Piquepaille adwhore submission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    where do you tag /. articles? where do you read others' tags?

  20. Rapid Urban Flexible (RUF) is better by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 3, Informative

    The RUF is a better system than this. First, because it's dual-mode: you can drive (compatible) cars up onto the guideway. Second, because cars are privately owned (in addition to cars owned by the system operator and run as taxis within the system), the system operator will not have to come up with all the capital needed to run the line .... just the guideway and whatever number of taxis they want to run.

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
    1. Re:Rapid Urban Flexible (RUF) is better by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The RUF project has been around for a long time, but the problem seems to be that they don't know where to start. They seem to have the goal of reforming the infra structure of an entire city in one go. Perhaps this could have been done in a strongly centralistic state like the former Soviet Union, but in the modern capitalistic world it is not possible. The RUF people never really adapted to the truth and started looking at realistic scenatios.

      Nevertheless it is a beautiful idea...

    2. Re:Rapid Urban Flexible (RUF) is better by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

      No, Palle is aware of the chicken and egg problem. That's why he has the MaxiRUF. Take a project like Atlanta's proposed light rail system. Instead of building light rail, build a RUF and run MaxiRUFs on it. You get a higher level of service because the MaxiRUFs can leave the guideway, plus people can buy a RUF of their own to commute.

      I've proposed to him that he also might be able to find a city with high property values reasonably close to an area with cheap land. Build a RUF guideway from there into the city, and include the price of a RUF vehicle in the house. Riding on a RUF is not like riding a train. First, it's single-seat door to door. Second, you are in your own vehicle and can nap or do work without distraction or insecurity. Third, you have broadband Internet.

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      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
    3. Re:Rapid Urban Flexible (RUF) is better by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 3, Informative
      From an engineering perspective RUF takes on all the engineering burdens of each form, and combines them. The rail system has to carry cars that are engineered for the road, and typically much larger. Or, even worse, rails engineered for buses which are much larger than anything PRT would carry. A RUF rail system has to take into account a larger variance in vehicles and maintenance; while you can require regular inspections, with private vehicles it's not possible to get anywhere near the quality control that you can get with a controlled system with strict and automated maintenance schedules.

      Cars, in turn, have to have all the same complexity they already have, and add the control systems for the tracks as well as seperate track wheels. Each car must still have a licensed and insured driver. Each car is going to have to park somewhere, which is not free. Capital costs of the RUF system are carried in part by private users, but only one of the smallest portions -- the largest portion of capital cost goes into creating the rail infrastructure.

      PRT's advantages have to do with its scope. The rail required for PRT vehicles is substantially easier to build, install, and maintain than typical rail, because the load is so much less. Elevated rails carrying tens of tons of weight must be large and bulky, and are very expensive to construct. But because the vehicles on a PRT are required in numbers relative to the number of riders, and wear out relative to how many passenger-miles they go, the cost is directly related to the fare income, so that cost is one of the smallest hurdles for the system compared to the rail infrastructure. PRT is optimized for decreasing the cost of that infrastructure.

    4. Re:Rapid Urban Flexible (RUF) is better by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

      Okay .... then PRT inherits the worst characteristics of cars and trains. PRT doesn't give you a single seat from home to office (until the endgame when PRT extends out into the suburbs). You don't have your own vehicle, so you must bring all your possessions into the PRT AND you must be careful to collect all your possessions when leaving. PRT vehicles travel slowly relative to cars, trains, and RUFs, increasing travel times. PRT stations have to be engineered for the peak load; imagine the PRT station that serves Yankee Stadium. The traffic density is limited by the switch transition time, since potentially every other vehicle might be entering or bypassing a station.

      The PRT is only as useful at the extent of its guideways. Without guideways, you can't use a PRT vehicle. A RUF vehicle doesn't need to use guideways. PRT station density must be much higher because everything must be within walking distance.

      One point you got wrong: the MaxiRUF is about the size of a big van. The extra load requirement on the guideway isn't that much greater than an equivalent RUF train. Of course, PRTs cannot form trains because of the switching requirement at stations.

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  21. New Face on Old Idea by kahrytan · · Score: 1


      This is just a old transportation with a new spin. It's not an automated cab. it's just a smaller train.

    Cabs do curb side service from your current location to your destination. Besides, I am glad cab drivers are safe and able to keep their jobs.

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    \
    1. Re:New Face on Old Idea by Fred_A · · Score: 1
      Besides, I am glad cab drivers are safe and able to keep their jobs.
      You don't get it, the point of the whole "new economy" thing is that now the cabbies will finally be able to get that job as a robotics designer they always wanted to do.

      Or did I miss something ?
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  22. Hmm... by evilviper · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Thank you for riding with Johnny Cabs.

    --
    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  23. It's Called PRT by dreadlord76 · · Score: 3, Informative
    1. Re:It's Called PRT by ms1234 · · Score: 1

      Although not personal, Chicago O'Hare has something similar I remeber, moving from one terminal to another. Also the Helsinki metro will most likely move to automated trains (without drivers) an a few years.

    2. Re:It's Called PRT by lagfest · · Score: 1

      And if you don't want to wait a few years, the Copenhagen metro is fully automated. http://m.dk/en/welcome

  24. We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart taxis by TomRC · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Robots aren't very good drivers yet.

    What we need are really cheap taxis that people can rent with a credit or debit card, drive a short distance, and pretty much just jump out and leave them. They need to be about as cheap as shopping carts - and even designed to fold up like shopping carts, so they can be racked conveniently in a compact space.

    You'd probably rent the right to keep one at home over-night. You'd drive it a mile or two on surburban streets to a bus or lightrail terminal, where you'd rack it and get your "taxicard" back. Ride the transit, get off within a mile or two of where you need to be. Grab another taxi-cart, insert your taxicard, drive to your final destination. Rack it up with dozens or hundreds of others in the taxicart stall, and get your taxicard back again.

    Reverse that, when going home. Each Taxicart stand would have extra taxicarts, and a computer system would note when a stand runs out completely, so that a couple of extras could quickly be delivered there. In the rare case that you arrive somewhere with an empty taxicart rack, you can punch a button to have one delivered, and get a credit for your inconvenience of having to wait.

    The taxicart would be all electric, with maybe a 15 mile range, probably about 25mph maximum speed. It would re-charge while racked up. It'd also have a small tank of water - in the summer that'd be frozen (while on the rack) to provide maybe half an hour's air conditioning. In the winter, it'd be heated, for about the same duration of heat.

    It'd be computer tracked with wireless and GPS - so the central computer could track units that get stalled. If you need to go somewhere without a rack, and leave the cart there, you could punch a button and pay to have it picked up - trucks would drive around just for that purpose - and again get your taxicard back. It'd have a plug too, so you could charge it up if necessary.

  25. Another interesting article by Rolland Piquepaille by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously... does this guy have some sort of mental problems? He grabs every crappy article with stupid claims such as that egyptians already used nanotechnology just because some compounds they used to dye their hairs had particles as tiny as 5nm dia.

    Then, as a proof that lightning does strike the same spot twice, another stupidity submitted by him to ./ manages to make it to the front page. This time a press release that just uses the name "taxi" for what is commonly known as "trolley", with some added buzzwords.

  26. Aww man.... by shakezula · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I got nine kids to feed...

    --
    I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
  27. Bring it on by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    I have long thougt that owning cars is silly -- most cars are used for commuting. They drive for a few minutes, they sit, they drive for a few minutes, they sit. All those parking spaces -- streets in US residential areas are twice as wide as tey need to be so everybody can park their commute vehicles.

    I figured sooner or later it would come to robotic cars -- you ave an appointment for your commute, the robocar drives to your home, picks you up, drives you to your workplace, drives away. No need for parking spaces, no need to produce nearly as many cars, and of course it would be extended to other uses, so you would always get the best car for each purpose, rather than trying to buy a car which will serve all your needs, even tose you seldom do like moving furniture or bringing home 1000 pounds of planting soil.

    Me likes robocars.

    1. Re:Bring it on by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

      Twice as wide?

      Try 3-4 times as wide.

      A robocab can be 1 passenger and if so they need only be about 3 feet wide. Since a robocab can be counted on to move in a predictable fashion I see no reason why three (3) of these little cars might occupy one of our current lanes. Then we have the issue that the Robocab's might not need to be parked. This still will leave room for another lanes with two, four and 6 ++ passenger models.

      There is just so much that can be done if we have a small efficient car that moves in a predictable fashion and doesn't need to be parked for hours on end.

      Huge improvemnts of efficency can be gained.

    2. Re:Bring it on by DrScotsman · · Score: 1

      The parent and grandparent have a great idea, but there's still one thing that needs to be countered - people vandalising or littering in these things.

      Maybe they could install cameras in all of them and have a nice complaint system (i.e. customer complains, check camera for previous customer, issue heavy fine - kinda like DVD rentals). But unless this is actually enforced, there's nothing to stop you entering a robocar with something nasty in it. Such as McDonalds :-)

  28. that's not the only place where we need them! by Desolator144 · · Score: 1

    British people are always driving on the wrong side of the road so it's good if they can replace cabs with robot ones, lol. But we also need to replace every single Illinois driver with a robot because damn, those people don't know how to drive. I'm from Wisconsin btw :-D

    --
    now stop reading and go play Dance Dance Revolution!
    1. Re:that's not the only place where we need them! by Danga · · Score: 1

      But we also need to replace every single Illinois driver with a robot because damn, those people don't know how to drive. I'm from Wisconsin btw :-D

      I live in Chicago and we think Wisconsin drivers are horrible. We do like to drive fast and cut people off though, I admit that.

      --
      Hey, there is only one Return and it's not of the King, it's of the Jedi.
  29. Don't need that either by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Think what life would be like if no one needed to actually own their own car, if all car needs were met by robotaxis. I mean with enough of them around that you could pick one up within a minute at most. You would call for one on your cell phone -- it would use your cell phone location to know where to pick you up -- you'd say or type in the address -- when you get there, it charges your cell phone or robotaxi account or whatever -- it goes away to serve somebody else.

    You could get by with one tenth the number of cars on the road today.

    You could eliminate most parking at offices and factories and in residential areas.

    You could reduce te number of cars sold every year by a factor of ten.

    They could mostly be electric, thus quieter and centralizing the smog makers at power plants.

    You could always get a vehicle more suited to your immediate needs. No need to buy a uge general purpose SUV or minivan or pickup just for the occasional furniture move or picking up loads of potting soil.

    I am all in favor of tese robotaxis.

    1. Re:Don't need that either by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You could get by with one tenth the number of cars on the road today.

      You'd have exactly the same number of cars on the road as you have now.
      Unless you increase the number of passengers per vehicle, or decrease the number of powered trips (bicycles/feet), it would be the same number of trips here and there. There might be fewer vehicles in total circulation, but the number in motion at any one time would be the same. There would, of course, be fewer sitting around in driveways and parking lots.

      You could reduce te number of cars sold every year by a factor of ten.

      Wear and tear. If you and 9 other people in your neighborhood all used one car, how long would it last at 200,000 miles per year?
      Who mediates when all 10 of you need to get to work at the same time, in different places?

      They could mostly be electric, thus quieter and centralizing the smog makers at power plants.

      This has zero to do with power source. Electric could happen with or without robocars.

    2. Re:Don't need that either by drsquare · · Score: 1
      You could get by with one tenth the number of cars on the road today.

      You need to do your sums. There would be just as many people going to exactly the same destinations as before, so there would be no reduction in traffic.

      Your system would mean there would be a massive shortage during rush hour (and no reduction of congestion), and a massive surplus during quiet times.

      In fact you would be ADDING to the traffic: as well as the usual journeys, you now have empty taxis going back and forth to pick people up.

      You could eliminate most parking at offices and factories and in residential areas.

      Suppose I have things such as shopping, gym gear, fishing gear etc? A parked car doubles as a storage space.

      You could reduce te number of cars sold every year by a factor of ten.

      That is not a benefit.

      They could mostly be electric, thus quieter and centralizing the smog makers at power plants.

      Any car could be electric, automatic taxi or privately owned. This is not relevant.
    3. Re:Don't need that either by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Agreed except for:

      "This has zero to do with power source. Electric could happen with or without robocars."

      If the payoff for an electric car is 5 years for a private owner, and the public cars are used 10x more, then the payoff for the public cars would be more like 6 months... It might be a no-brainer to go electric with a 6-month payoff.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    4. Re:Don't need that either by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      You could get by with one tenth the number of cars on the road today. You'd have exactly the same number of cars on the road as you have now.
      You could actually have less cars on the road at any one time, though 1/10 is clearly an attempt to say 1/10 as many cars total, as most cars are just parked, not being used. Parked cars take up a lot of valuable space, not to mention an unused capital investment, so it is useful to reduce total numbers.

      It's likely that there would also be less cars on the road at any one time. Car sharing systems like Zipcar find that users use cars maybe 25% as much as they did before...? I don't remember the exact amount, and it's something they brag about in some forums and not others. Basically, if the cost of car use is entirely incremental -- you pay the real cost of every trip -- people won't use cars as much. But if you pay for most of the costs regardless of any trip (up-front cost of buying the car, plus up-front cost of insurance) then there is an incentive to make use of your investment by driving more.

      Even moreso, with a taxi-like system people will use cars less, as many trips do not form a circle coming back to the original location. You could use public transit in one direction and not another. Or bike, but use a car if the weather gets bad by the time you are ready to come home. By actively choosing a car on each leg you won't bring your car around on trips simply because it may later be required. The availability of car-like options without the investment of a car increases the value of other types of transportation.

  30. More Roland? Jesus! by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 0

    What is this? The fifth or sixth Rolad story in the last 30 days? Hey Slashdot editors, good stories or bad, give OTHER people some front page space!

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    1. Re:More Roland? Jesus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relax, they're just giving him a chance to do a good one. He's getting better with practice - this isn't TOTAL crap like some of the previous tries. A couple more tries and he'll get one right. Then he'll be done.

    2. Re:More Roland? Jesus! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      After being the #2 submitter at 312 submissions? http://slashdot.org/hof.shtml - it's still ad whoring.

  31. Is this scary to anyone? by trevor_hellman · · Score: 1

    When I think of an airport, I always remember how it is impossible to walk around. Not the terminal per say, but walking from the airport to somewhere off the airport terminal. (I distinctly remember the lack of walking areas in Sacramento). Anyways, I could see something like this making it even more difficult to walk around. Maybe nobody cares anymore, but I really enjoy a walk and I would hate to see that option disappear.

    Trevor

  32. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    "They need to be about as cheap as shopping carts - and even designed to fold up like shopping carts, so they can be racked conveniently in a compact space."

    Dude, if you have to be unrealistic in your ideas, go all the way to personal transporters: "Beam me to work Scotty!"

    If you want to see a realistic implementation of your idea (minus the folding cars -- forget rentals, if those were possible, they'd be in every household in Japan), look at http://flexcar.com/ -- the weakness is that you have to return to your origin, so that it is not appropriate for commuting or going to the airport.

    Anyway, robots are fine drivers if you take the variability out of the system. Presumably, that's why these are on rails, to simplify the system to the point where they can navigate without too much risk of disturbance.

  33. Re:Another interesting article by Rolland Piquepai by larry+bagina · · Score: 1

    ScuttleMonkey and Zonk are to blame, IMO. CmdrTaco has stated that he thinks Roland's "submissions" are shit.

    RoboEditors that posted links for popular digg stories would be more effective (and have less dupes).

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  34. Monorail be better? by Mike_ya · · Score: 1

    How about some sort of monorail system with several 'trains' for the airport instead of using 19 separate cars. Looking at the pictures each car holds 4 people, with luggage that would be tight, totally of 76 passengers being moved at a time. People come in by the plane load much higher volumne than what the people movers can move quickly. The cars will be 'bumper to bumper' anyway when traveling. When the transport breaks down half way to the car park then what, get out and push? Hope someone is monitoring the transports?

    1. Re:Monorail be better? by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      This particular system can move 4800 people per hour. Monorail which would fit in the same space can only handle a fraction of that and is far more expensive to boot. When a pod breaks down half way to the car park the remaining pods can re-route through one of the other lines. What do you do when a monorail breaks down?

      --
      Deleted
  35. Already done in Malaysia by cdn-programmer · · Score: 3, Interesting

    At the international airport in Kualua Lumpur they have a robot train to pick up passengers and take them to another terminal. Here in Canada I felt like I was in a cattle corral with customs cowboys standing behind two way mirrors with prods ready.

    This train of course runs on a set track but it does illustrate the idea.

    I think this is a good development. I share the optimism of many experts who suggest we are already at or near peak oil. Currently we produce about 85 million barrels per day and at this point Saudi Aramco has admitted Ghawar is in decline up to 8% and the country as a whole is declining 2%. They join Kuwait which announced last November that Bergan is in decline. The next largest fields are Canatarrel and DaQing and these are in about a 14% decline along with Bergan.

    These top four 4 feilds collectivly produce about 12-15% of the worlds conventional oils and they just illustrate the problem. Most countries and most oil fields are presently in decline.

    The Jack#2 well announced by Cheveron last week may hearld in a new field potentially with 3-15 billion barrels. If so then this feild may be able to produce 750,000 barrels per day by the 2010-2015 time frame.

    By 2015 if we subscribe to the idea that we're going to lose 5% production per year from the current 85 million barrels produced per day, then by 2015 we'll be short well over 15 million barrels of Oil per day (BOPD) of production compared to today. Tar Sands may add 2.2 million BOPD or even more. The Cheveron/Devon discovery may add almost another 1 million. But 85-85*(0.95^10) is a loss of 31 million BOPD and thus with this rough rough calculation I've already factored in everything we are likely going to be able to do and still some.

    The bottom line is we need to cut consumption in a big way and the sooner the better. A HUGE percentage of the liquid fuels consummed, especially in the USA, is totally wasted. SUV"s sit six (6) abreast in grid lock traffic with their stereos cranked up and their air conditioners blasting. If we were to factor in the waste of people's lives - spending hours commuting to a job that may amount to little more than beauracratic paper shuffling, this alone might be considered the crime of the century.

    But what we are doing to our planet and our future is even worse. All of that fuel wasted while commuting (often 1 person to a truck) is not available for useful purposes like industrial, chemical feedstocks, or by farmers to produce food.

    Robocabs, if they are fuel efficient and small and sized for the job are an obvious answer.

    Currently the USA burns over 20 million barrels of oil per day. If we get the SUV's off the road and replace them with a "Jonny cab" (from Total Recall - its a RoboCab) then we save lives because we get stupid drivers away from behind the wheel, we cut commuting time because the commute can be organised in a far more efficient manner than just plain old grid lock, and we might save enough fuel to save our precious butts in the process.

    The thing is this fuel crisis is likely to be fully recognised as the beginning of a fundamental change to the human condition by 2010. Its still a few months to a few years off. Oil prices in the $70 range are the harbinger of things to come. We're ok for a short while. Next year we might not be so lucky.

    1. Re:Already done in Malaysia by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only is commuting a waste...why can't we have cargo public transportation, which would send goods you buy online, in local shops, to your doors within an hour or so (instead of you having to get into your SUV and drive to the mall and back for a 20 pounds of goods), or even supply stores. It would be less expensive for businesses not to own underutilised delivery vehicles if there was a comercial "city bus line" or even a cargo subway trains circling around. Of course, loading and unloading must be authomatic and much much faster then today.

    2. Re:Already done in Malaysia by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

      Excellent IDEA.

      A pneumatic tube transport might work. These are used in Factories but if tubes are built large enought to hold your average grocery bag and large enought to hold a case of wine or a case of beer - then one could simply order it up and its dropped in the tube and a computer delivers it to your abode.

      A well desgined system could move the product fast enough that the beer would still be cold by the time your domestic robot receives it and puts it in the fridge for you.

      This would give a whole new meaning to the idea of ordering some beer and a Pizza.

    3. Re:Already done in Malaysia by 8ball629 · · Score: 1

      This is already done in... most airports I've been to in the US as far as connecting terminals as you stated.

      It really doesn't seem like much of an advancement in technology to me or even something to feature anywhere. It looks like all they are is a small, automated monorail.

    4. Re:Already done in Malaysia by fithmo · · Score: 0
      "Robocabs, if they are fuel efficient and small and sized for the job are an obvious answer."

      Yeah, robot driven future cars are waaaaaaaaaay more obvious than just improving and encouraging use of current public transportation systems.

      The general consensus in America (esp. for those SUV folks you were talking about) is that public transportation is a slow, dirty way for disgusting old and/or poor people to get aproximately where they're going.

      I think robot taxis are cool and all, but I think we need to put some effort in to improving public transit and its image (in the states, at least) or people are just going to want personal SUV robochauffeurs.

    5. Re:Already done in Malaysia by Danga · · Score: 1

      At the international airport in Kualua Lumpur they have a robot train to pick up passengers and take them to another terminal.

      Chicago O'Hare has something similar as well:

      http://www.airwise.com/airports/us/ORD/ORD_09.html

      I have never used it to go between terminals but it is nice to use to get to/from the long term parking lots. I have been using it for years and never had a problem with it.

      --
      Hey, there is only one Return and it's not of the King, it's of the Jedi.
    6. Re:Already done in Malaysia by Danga · · Score: 1

      I copied the wrong link in, the following link is more informative: http://www.ohare.com/ohare/parking/parking_ats.sht m

      --
      Hey, there is only one Return and it's not of the King, it's of the Jedi.
  36. Re:Another interesting article by Rolland Piquepai by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ScuttleMonkey and Zonk are paid by Roland to post links to his AdBlog.

    CmdrTaco may genuinely believe Roland's submissions are "shit", but he knows they aren't worthless, as Slashdot no doubt also benefits financially from Roland and his scams in some way or other.

    Deny the above as much as you like ScuttleMonkey, Zonk, CmdrTaco et al, but you're wasting your breath---we know the truth already.

  37. The past is here, only more intimate. by IANAAC · · Score: 2, Informative
    Most major urban areas have public transportation which covers 95 or so percent of the land area. This is just a more intimate version of good old public transportation.

    Show me a robo version that can take me from any point in the city to any address in a forth-ring suburb and I'll be impressed. A 4 Km track is no different than two subway stops in any city.

    1. Re:The past is here, only more intimate. by legoburner · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree with you, and have been hoping that some day they start doing this in denser areas. Being able to use advanced routing methods to move people from A to B in place of the inefficient and unaware cars and buses of today would be very useful. There are a few problems I can think of that need to be sorted out to get this to work properly though:
      - Efficient routing around disasters, with breakdown detection to prevent a single system failure from breaking the entire network.
      - Some sort of weight detection system to ensure that people do not leave anything on the vehicles (bags, bombs, etc). Normally a driver would point these things out but automated systems lack that ability.
      - Some sort of 'digital nose' type device to detect the vehicles which have stink bombs, vomit, and whatever other lovely smells that can be accrued by frequent usage in a densely populated area, and allow the vehicles to be removed from service and cleaned instantly.
      - Decent integration with pedestrians. They need to be able to go as fast as possible so that fewer vehicles are needed, but must not clog up roads for traffic and pedestrians. Ideally some sort of sunken road could be used where appropriate perhaps, allowing large boulevards at ground level, and enabling their usage in pedestrianised areas.
      - Easy to use for disabled people.
      - Free or cheaper than driving a car or taking a bus.
      - Must run at all hours, not be limited like public transport is, as this encourages people to either stumble around cities drunk after clubs close, or sometimes risk driving home.

      That is all that I can think of right now, anyone got any others? A private public-transport would be very welcome.

    2. Re:The past is here, only more intimate. by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      - Efficient routing around disasters, with breakdown detection to prevent a single system failure from breaking the entire network.
      I would expect this to be fairly easy. Many breakdowns could be avoided with on-board sensors which could detect problems, and automatically send the vehicle to a maintenance point after dropping off the passenger. In cases when tracks are offline (a broken-down vehicle, the track needs maintenance, etc) because there's redundancy in the rail system it should be easy to route around. Notably traditional rail mass transit has little redundancy, and so even expected events like maintenance can cause the system to go down or have severely degraded performance.
      - Some sort of weight detection system to ensure that people do not leave anything on the vehicles (bags, bombs, etc). Normally a driver would point these things out but automated systems lack that ability.
      That would be interesting. Probably even a well-designed interior could make forgotten items more obvious, though detecting deliberately forgotten items like a bomb would be good. This could make the system quite resistent to terrorism -- no more dangerous than someone blowing up their own car on the highway, or themselves on a street (which is dangerous, of course, but public transit give a terrorist more leverage). Even without this, I don't know if it would be anymore dangerous than the status quo.
      - Some sort of 'digital nose' type device to detect the vehicles which have stink bombs, vomit, and whatever other lovely smells that can be accrued by frequent usage in a densely populated area, and allow the vehicles to be removed from service and cleaned instantly.
      I think the plan here is to allow passengers to reject a vehicle. After being rejected, a vehicle would go to the maintenance area to be cleaned, and another vehicle would show up in its place.
      - Decent integration with pedestrians. They need to be able to go as fast as possible so that fewer vehicles are needed, but must not clog up roads for traffic and pedestrians. Ideally some sort of sunken road could be used where appropriate perhaps, allowing large boulevards at ground level, and enabling their usage in pedestrianised areas.
      Almost all these systems use elevated rail, so there's no integration. I've seen articles about a couple low-speed at-grade systems, often used for things like parking lot shuttles, guided by radio transmitters embedded into the road. Elevating the rails makes the safety issues a lot simpler, especially interchanges, though a novel at-grade system could have some pretty substantial benefits if it could be made to work.
      - Easy to use for disabled people.
      This is a common feature. Elevated rails require elevators in stations; otherwise it's just a matter of making them big enough to accept a wheelchair. For people with other disabilities that make them unable to drive (e.g., blind) it's a perfect system.
      - Free or cheaper than driving a car or taking a bus.
      It's hoped that these systems could be self-supporting, even including bonds to pay for infrastructure, while still having reasonable costs. This is in contrast to typical mass transit that isn't anywhere near self supporting and still isn't very cheap. Cars are difficult because the incremental costs are quite low, but other costs are quite high. This makes it difficult to compete with cars when someone already owns a car.
      - Must run at all hours, not be limited like public transport is, as this encourages people to either stumble around cities drunk after clubs close, or sometimes risk driving home.
      Because the cost of running the system at late hours is very low -- no extra drivers, no large but mostly empty vehicles -- there's no reason the system can't be 24 hours.
  38. Robocops by Universal+Indicator · · Score: 1

    Glancing over it quickly, I thought it said robocops! I could just imagine them catching computer viruses and creating deadly "bot-nets" heh

  39. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by dcmeserve · · Score: 1

    I've heard there's a system somewhat like this, in Holland, I think.

    It's called "bike stealing."

    --
    "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
  40. Simulated driver by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Funny

    So are they gonna pipe in mid-eastern music, garlic smells, and strange bead thingies dangling from the mirrors to give it the real cabbie ambiance?

    1. Re:Simulated driver by cdn-programmer · · Score: 2, Insightful


      So are they gonna pipe in mid-eastern music, garlic smells, and strange bead thingies dangling from the mirrors to give it the real cabbie ambiance?


      Probably not. If you listen to "Time" by ELO, they'll probably make the driver a red head, blonde or brunette depending on your taste and probably track your preference. She'll have a sweet voice and will not be inclined to argue. Next she will be just the right blend of demanding but nice. You can paraphrase this to mean "Stimulating".

      Alas, as the say in the song - She might be perfect "But she isn't IBM".

      Since I use an IBM PC 101 KB I know the tactile feel of something from IBM. There is nothing more pleasant on the planet. Now if IBM would slip the VM technology of the MainFrames into my little 'puter so I have full virtualization and can run several Linux and OpenBSD operating systems along with the winders (ugg) stuff - then I would fall in love.

      I had to put up with a very nicely engineered and very expensive NEC special order KB for a number of years until I managed to lay my pinkies on the IBM KB. I use to love the song by ELO and now I know why.

      IMHO the technology of yester-year will not be able to match the joys that await us. Hense I always tell anyone not too familiar with a computer or new thechnology that "Great Joy's await you!"

  41. Uh oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Never go for a ride in Release 1.0.

  42. RoboCop by 8ball629 · · Score: 1

    I can see it now - robot taxi drivers.

    After defeating OCP and preventing the Delta City project from happening, Murphy (RoboCop) decided to settle down and become a taxi driver in Europe. He never realized that he would be competing with other retired robots for fares such as Optimus Prime and #5.

    "Dead or alive, you're coming with me."

    Ultimately, most people go with RoboCop.

  43. Personal rapid transit - not robocabs by Master+Of+Ninja · · Score: 1

    I can't believe that the summary didn't include the above title. Personal rapid transit (PRT) is what people have been calling it for years, and is slightly different from the "robocabs" (think total recall) that it has been described as. The PRT system seems like an excellent solution for urban mobility from reading the articles on wikipedia, but it looks like there might need to be some heavy investment first. It's a good idea to check the wikipedia article (and the links of it) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_rapid_transi t.

  44. Sounds complex by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1
    Oh I don't mean the technology needed to implement it. I mean getting the public to actually use it without getting confused by high tech like the door button.

    The dutch rail network has some lines wich split at a point so that the first half of the train goes in one direction and the last half in another. It is on a couple of lines, ALWAYS happens and is very clearly announded and printed on the signs. And each and every ride people get it wrong. Not every day, every single ride. Can you imagine the mess if a train is made up out of random parts going to random destinations?

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Sounds complex by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The point is that the passengers don't know anything about the routing, including how trains combine and split. A passenger at a station presses their destination on a system map, and gets a magstripe card with their car's ID# printed on it. The map sends the request for a car, which arrives with its sign showing its ID# and destination station. The passenger gets in, inserts their magstripe to confirm, the doors close. The car zips them to their destination, routing/combining automatically according to the system's state. They get out. If there's another passenger waiting for a car there, the car's sign changes to the new ID# and destination. Or it zips to whichever station requires it.

      The passenger just presses a map, gets a card, sees a car, gets in, inserts card, gets out, next. Much simpler than planning the route, including transfers.

      Especially in NYC, with our many split-second decisions between different lines/routes, express/local, empty/full (of thugs), dirty cars. The Dutch rail systems I've taken don't have those problems (OK, maybe some thugs, but they were Romanian or New Yorkers ;). This kind of system could so much more efficiently use our rail capacity in our gridlocked city that we should pour $BILLIONS into bringing it online.

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    2. Re:Sounds complex by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      You get on any pod and your ticket tells the pod where you want to go. Simple.

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  45. Hope! by NexFlamma · · Score: 1

    I'm hoping this project is wonderfully succesful.

    If they can make a system of automatically piloted vehicles within the ancient, twisted roads of Europe, it would be almost effortless to convert a similar system to the (comparatively) modern roads of America. Given our vast stretches of highway, an automated system could make long distance road travel less expensive and almost as effortless as train or even plane travel.

    And your car probably wouldn't want to inspect your shoes before you get in either.

  46. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by jhermans · · Score: 1

    That already exists - I drove one yesterday (Antwerp, Belgium). Not electrical though, it was a regular car (Ford Focus).

    It's car-sharing : if you need a car, you rent one for the time you need. You can pick one up from a few points around the city, and you have to leave it back there when you're finished. If you want to keep it longer (overnight, or when you need it for a weeekend), just keep it. You're paying with a special card (in this case, a RFID card), so that only authorized persons can borrow one, and you will be charged with the numbers of kilometers that you use.

    It's a kind of automated car rental company, with a membership card.

  47. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by TomRC · · Score: 1

    Dooooood! Learn to recognize hyperbole!

  48. 4 kms by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 1

    The fact that the car park is 4kms from the terminal building tells you all you need to know about Europe.

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    1. Re:4 kms by Danga · · Score: 1

      What airports have you been to? Most large airports I have been to in the US have the long term parking about that far away. As long as there is easy to use transportation to/from the parking lot then I don't see it as an issue.

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      Hey, there is only one Return and it's not of the King, it's of the Jedi.
    2. Re:4 kms by Toreo+asesino · · Score: 1

      I can assume you've never been to Europe then, let alone Heathrow airport?

      In fact, what airports have you been to where car-parking is all within 4km of the airport?

      Idiot.

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      throw new NoSignatureException();
  49. YEah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    a 4 minute bj!!!

  50. The difference is that it transports *individuals* by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    NOT groups of people. It's a crucial development in public transport, and it's better than a computer driven car.

    Transporting individuals means:

    You can go directly or nearly directly to your destination.
    You do not have to stop at intermediate stations to let people on and off.
    You do not have to get out and change to different lines.
    The transport pods wait for you, they don't run to a schedule so you don't have to wait at a station.

    Being a form of off road transport means that:

    It can be non stop.
    There are no intersections.
    There are no traffic lights.
    There is no traffic congestion.
    The average speed is remarkably close to the maximum speed of the vehicles.

    The result is that for the average case, this form of transport is several times faster than other forms of public transport and importantly because of the non stop nature of A->B and the high average speed, it's faster than the car.

    Taxi2000, an American equivalent to the ATS Ultra system has a capacity of 7200 vehicles per hour, it's the equivalent of a 3 lane motorway direct to the end of your street. But because the vehicles handle individuals, they are small and light the underlying guideway is also correspondingly light and therefore far cheaper than motorway, or conventional rail. Transport researchers have known since the 1960s that this is close to the optimal form of transport, unfortunately the computer technology to do it hasn't been available until recently.

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  51. The fact that it moves *individuals* is crucial by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Use your head rather than your mouth, just for a second and think about the implications.

    If you move a group of people.

    The vehicle has to be big. It has to be heavy.
    The underlying infrastructure to handle the vehicle has to be big, heavy and expensive.
    The vehicle has to run along an average route, it can't go direct to your destination. You almost certainly will have to change vehicles to get to your destination.
    The vehicle has to run to a schedule which means you have to wait for it.
    The vehicle has to stop at every station along the route to let people on and off. This kills the average speed.

    These are fundamental features of all forms of transport which move groups of people and fundamentally their performance sucks very badly indeed because of these features.

    The system mentioned and others just like it completely remove these limitations to performance by transporting individuals rather than groups.

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  52. will it be as reliable as .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    Will it be as reliable as when they automated the baggage handling in Denver Airport. How will the driverless cabs respond to unplanned events like breakdowns or an obstruction. I once asked the conductor on the driverless docklands light rail what happens if there's an obstruction. He replied that well then we hit it.

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    1. Re:will it be as reliable as .. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

      "I once asked the conductor on the driverless docklands light rail what happens if there's an obstruction. He replied that well then we hit it."

      And that differs from which type of train?

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    2. Re:will it be as reliable as .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well i would expect so. Surely this can be done and i'm sure it can be done quite well. However usually it's just a prestige project. Like the driverless Shuttle service called Phileas that we are supposed to be having since 2003 in Eindhoven, The Netherlands.
      AFAIK, the coaches still don't drive. The service was started at some point in 2004, WITH drivers.. (doh, thank you legislation monkeys) and then discontinued until later notice after solving "some problems".

      http://www.humanhub.nl/BRT.html

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  53. Re: by dimethylxanthine · · Score: 1

    I don't see how this is going to help prevent and solve unemployment. Most importantly, I don't think I would want to be taken somewhere by a piece of hardware, that I can't even ask a question, directions or some piece of information available exclusively to local humans (Could you take me to the nearest supermarket, pharmacy, whorehouse first, please?), and less so if it's running software, that's bound to have bugs...

  54. counterpoint by way2trivial · · Score: 1

    or it can be small and continious.

    people movers can hold 1-5 and go every thirty seconds, and change destinations on the fly.

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    every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
  55. Profitability of public transport by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1
    This kind of system could so much more efficiently use our rail capacity in our gridlocked city that we should pour $BILLIONS into bringing it online.


    I disagree. I agree that the system(or one based on the same principles) could as you say make more efficient use of the rail space and make a huge difference to traffic congestion. But... It should be privately financed, it's one of the few public transport systems which can be profitable.

    Almost all existing forms of public transport are heavily subsidised by the taxpayer, 50% or so is common. Ironically this makes new transport systems like Ultra or Taxi2000 more difficult to implement. The key is less subsidy, not more. Sell off the rail system, including rails, stations and make it pay for itself. Ultimately this is going to mean a roll out of a PRT like system by the private sector, either in direct competition with rail or by the rail companies replacing traditional rail, and it'll be done faster, cheaper and more efficiently than a government would.

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    1. Re:Profitability of public transport by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      Nice in theory, but NYC tried that and it failed. The wasteful redundancy of NYC's 2, then 3 subway systems is still with us, preventing incompatible lines from connecting, forcing extra support systems. While still private, the systems didn't serve the city, but just the "lowest hanging fruit".

      There's room for only one rail system. It's a "natural monopoly", which is always best run by a government accountable to the people. Maybe we could try competing car systems, something like the taxi fleets on the city roads, though that cartel is extremely inefficient, and the #1 contender to lock up the new rail traffic.

      There's so much public benefit that public subsidy is public investment. After trying privatized rail in NYC for several decades, we learned that public rail was better for the city. If private systems are so much more efficient, they'll compete and win. After they already failed, I doubt it.

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  56. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have this in London, www.streetcar.co.uk. They claim that you'll never be more than 5 to 10 minutes walk from a car.

  57. Subway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I ride the Metro, you insensitive clod!

  58. Personal Rapid Transit systems by rwa2 · · Score: 2, Informative

    These have typically gone by the name of PRT - "Personal Rapid Transit" systems. Google it for a lot more information on what these systems can ultimately achieve.

    Back in the 70s, the big systems companies (later to be consumed by Raytheon, Boeing, etc.) was working on these mass transit systems to improve on some of the deficiencies of existing busses, subways, light rail, cars, taxicabs, etc. Ultimately they got out of the business by the 80s... I suppose municipalities aren't very visionary about such things, and it's probably much easier to just pour money into building more roads and federally-funded highways and pass/hide the vehicle costs to people to buy and maintain cars and not bother worrying about traffic congestion or pollution.

    Anyway, there are a handful of PRT companies today (Ultra, Skytran, Taxi2000) still trying to push these systems out. Unfortunately, they seem responsible for lots of astroturf propaganda sites that all look and sound exactly the same. But ultimately, the decision to fund and build such broad advanced and integrated municipal systems are highly political. Yuck, politics.

    So the only systems that seem to have a chance of being deployed are targetted towards campuses and airports. The only PRT-like thing in existence is a little 3-station tram system built by Boeing for WVU http://faculty.washington.edu/~jbs/itrans/morg.htm

    But looks like Ultra is finally succeeding in putting more modern systems in Dubai and Heathrow. It's kinda ironic that these campus transit systems are primarily designed to shuttle people to and from a car parking lot :P

    Oh well, one of these days we might have something that look and function a bit more like the PRT as shown in films like Minority Report. But it will take some visionary public officials to make it a priority, as well as some visionary systems engineering to define interface standards so the system can be smoothly maintained and upgraded over the decades. At least high fuel prices and increasing concern with environmentalism and sustainability may actually raise the public consciousness about this soon.

  59. Re:The difference is that it transports *individua by sandmaninator · · Score: 1

    Off road transport also means great expense to install new lines "direct to the end of your street". More useful would be robotic cars that follow magnets laid in the street like the poster below describes.

  60. yes, let's think about this for a second... by tompee · · Score: 1

    Firstly, vehicles and associated infrastructure to move lots of people in one "hit" may be heavy and more expensive, but transport of this type benefits from the economy of scale and is more energy efficient. It's cheaper to run a single 8-litre, 6 cylinder diesel engine that shifts 50 people than to run 25 x 1.5 litre, 4 cylinder petrol engines to shift the same number (two passengers per car).
    Add the overhead of a driver for each vehicle, and you can see it really does make a lot of sense to run busses.

    Secondly, in the example quoted (the electric cars at heathrow) the route to the carpark is the same for all passengers, so the problem of not being able to "split up" and take passengers on individual routes does not exist.
    The destination is also the same for all passengers, so the problem of stopping every now and then to pick up and set down passengers along the way (and this slow the trip down) doesn't really exist.

    1. Re:yes, let's think about this for a second... by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1
      "but transport of this type benefits from the economy of scale and is more energy efficient. "


      Only with high occupancy, close to 100% full. That only happens during peak periods. During other times the costs and inefficiency of accelerating and decelerating a large heavy and nearly empty vehicle are substantial, never mind the environmental cost of the rail infrastructure. Because of this the schedule has to be set to minimise the losses outwith peak periods, making the system even less desirable. And in any case, Ultra in particular is more efficient than LRT even during peak periods, it's easily more efficient than the buses.

      The system we're talking about is electric and driverless so your comment about the cars doesn't really apply.

      The destination is also the same for all passengers, so the problem of stopping every now and then to pick up and set down passengers along the way (and this slow the trip down) doesn't really exist.


      This is only stage one. Subsequent stages will add another 500 pods and will connect all of the terminals and all of the car parks. There are 14 car parks and 5 terminals. In addition there are several set down and pickup points within each car park. The car parks at Heathrow are large and a group mover would exhibit the set down/pick up performance problem.

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    2. Re:yes, let's think about this for a second... by tompee · · Score: 1
      Only with high occupancy, close to 100% full. That only happens during peak periods. During other times the costs and inefficiency of accelerating and decelerating a large heavy and nearly empty vehicle are substantial, never mind the environmental cost of the rail
      Close to 100% full? I don't have any figures to dispute this, but somehow I doubt you have any to prove it either. In the example I used above (1 big diesel engine vs lots of little petrol motors), 50% occupation would still have been at least as efficient as having a car for every two passengers
      The fact that this example used combustion engines is irrelevant. I could have illistrated the same point with a large electric bus (say, 400kw motor) vs many small electric cars (say, 75kw motors). Energy is energy. The point I'm making as about the economy of scale you get with one big, powerful vehicle that moves many people vs many little vehicles that move a few people each.
      You could automate the eletric bus as easily a you could automate each of the cars.

      Railways are cheaper to build than roads. And they are a more efficient way of making contact with the ground (narrow wheels), which means less drag.

      I'll concede that the "on-demand" nature of having pods ready to go when you are ready to go is more convenient and may save passengers the 5 or 10 minutes they would otherwise have to wait for a bus, but I can't see how anyone can say it's more efficient in terms of energy and maintenance overheads.

      I tell you what would be energy efficient - having one bus stop at each car park and getting people to WALK to their cars. The nature of flying means that not many people are going to have a 500kg of luggage to take to a car, although I'm sure the inconvenience would be truly terrible. There could be a few pods for the elderly and disabled that are local to each park, which take them from the bus stop to their cars.
    3. Re:yes, let's think about this for a second... by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      Close to 100% full? I don't have any figures to dispute this, but somehow I doubt you have any to prove it either. In the example I used above (1 big diesel engine vs lots of little petrol motors), 50% occupation would still have been at least as efficient as having a car for every two passengers
      A comparison of energy use per passenger-mile, and a graph of the same with PRT included.
      The fact that this example used combustion engines is irrelevant. I could have illistrated the same point with a large electric bus (say, 400kw motor) vs many small electric cars (say, 75kw motors). Energy is energy. The point I'm making as about the economy of scale you get with one big, powerful vehicle that moves many people vs many little vehicles that move a few people each.
      Where does this magical economy of scale come in? There's no economy of scale in physics. Weight costs energy. Stopping costs energy. Big electrical motors aren't particularly more efficient than small motors.
      Railways are cheaper to build than roads. And they are a more efficient way of making contact with the ground (narrow wheels), which means less drag.
      They are cheaper? This PDF shows rail as about 5x more. I don't know if I trust that PDF, but clearly rail is more expensive. The tolerances are much lower. As for drag, yes, iron-on-iron wheels cause less drag. They also mean that the grade must be very even, which is part of what makes rail more expensive to build, and part of what keeps rail from serving many areas without tunneling and other expensive infrastructure that only takes the rail further from people. Rails also have very poor braking, which is why they can't safely coexist with other traffic, also making them very expensive.
      I'll concede that the "on-demand" nature of having pods ready to go when you are ready to go is more convenient and may save passengers the 5 or 10 minutes they would otherwise have to wait for a bus
      It also costs you time on the bus or train waiting at stops that are not your own. The El in Chicago goes at about 15mph net. In Manhattan it is faster to walk than take the bus. The more convenient you make the stations, the more stations, and the slower the system; it has lousy scaling properties. Mass transit is really, really slow.
    4. Re:yes, let's think about this for a second... by tompee · · Score: 1
      A comparison of energy use per passenger-mile, and a graph of the same with PRT included.
      Nothing in these graphs mentions the occupancy rates, which route selection and timetable management would affect a lot. Note that the most efficient mode of transport in BTU's per passenger, behind the "Skyweb" system (and if this information is being published by skyweb, forgive me if I take a bit of a "wait and see" stance on the figures they quote for their system) is... intercity bus!
      Urban buses are listed as the the most inefficient, and this would be due to the frequent deceleration and acceleration of the mass of the bus and passengers.
      As I said, a bus from a terminal to a carpark does not need to stop along the way, giving it an efficiency close to the "intercity bus" figures in the graphs you quoted. People can walk to their cars. They're not going to have a lot of luggage (because they have just flown), and surely two or three bus stops in the car park could drop people off reasonably close to their cars, and not cost too much energy. For the disabled, elderly, there are other solutions...
      Where does this magical economy of scale come in? There's no economy of scale in physics. Weight costs energy. Stopping costs energy. Big electrical motors aren't particularly more efficient than small motors.
      It comes from reduction in "infrastructure" (by which I mean the weight of the vehicles components) per passenger. A bus that carries ten times the number of people as a car does not have to be ten times as heavy or have an engine ten times as large as a car. It does not have to consume ten times the energy to move ten times the passengers, because the weight of the passengers is only a small paprt of the weight of a vehicle.
      You also get savings in drag. Unless ten cars can travel within a few feet of each other to get the maximum benefits of the preceding cars slip stream, then the total drag-resistance that the engines have to overcome for all passengers is less in the bus than for the cars. A bus or train only has to punch one hole through the air.

      I was not saying that large electric motors are more efficient than small ones. I was just saying that the above-mentioned economies of scale apply equally to combustion-engine-drive or electric-motor-driven vehicles.
      This PDF shows rail as about 5x more. I don't know if I trust that PDF, but clearly rail is more expensive. The tolerances are much lower. As for drag, yes, iron-on-iron wheels cause less drag [but the iron manufacturing is expensive].
      5 x more in initial costs according to the PDF. When it comes to moving mass from point A to point B, rail is very efficient. Therefore, I think the total cost of ownership would be more favourable.
      Like yourself, I don't really trust that PDF anyway. For starters, it contradicts the previous links you gave me which show urban busses as being the most inefficient form of transport in BTU's per passenger. The PDF says urban busses are cheaper per passenger than rail... if it is, it's only because the true costs of energy haven't be realised yet.
      There are quite a few other fallacies in that document (eg "trains can only go 55mph, which is slower than a bus, therefore rail is slower". Ignores traffic, number of stops etc. Stupid point), which make me highly suspicious of an agenda and frankly I just don't believe much of what it contains because of that.
      and part of what keeps rail from serving many areas without tunneling and other expensive infrastructure that only takes the rail further from people.
      I'm not trying to say rail or bus is a silver-bullet solution for all transport problems.
    5. Re:yes, let's think about this for a second... by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1
      Nothing in these graphs mentions the occupancy rates, which route selection and timetable management would affect a lot. Note that the most efficient mode of transport in BTU's per passenger, behind the "Skyweb" system (and if this information is being published by skyweb, forgive me if I take a bit of a "wait and see" stance on the figures they quote for their system) is... intercity bus!
      I'm pretty sure they take into account average occupancy rate in the U.S., so for instance about 1.1 people ride in each car. Intercity travel tends to have very good occupancy, as prices are adjusted to keep occupancy high and seats booked ahead of time to also encourage good occupancy. Commuter rail also has good occupancy, because they tend to not run a very complete schedule, only running when there's a lot of passengers. A transit system that doesn't serve most of the people most of the time can have better occupancy, because it can pick just the most successful routes. Such a system also happens to be lousy, and still requires everyone to own cars.

      A bus system in an airport would not have good occupancy. It would have to run for the full schedule when flights were arriving and leaving. It would have to have to keep a frequent schedule, as high wait times aren't really acceptable, especially for arriving passengers. And indeed, you look at airport shuttles and it's not uncommon to see a bus late at night with just a couple people on it.

      When it comes to moving mass from point A to point B, rail is very efficient.
      Moving mass, sure. People? No, not very efficient at all. People aren't actually very massive -- mass is the least of the problems involved with moving people. In fact, all the mass in mass transit is the train car (or bus) itself, I don't think human mass ever gets above 50% of the total, even at the most peak times.
  61. OT: No such thing as an oil crisis by sgtrock · · Score: 1

    I, for one, welcome our Kiwi sewage to oil overlords. :)

  62. No, I don't understand, tell me..? by fantomas · · Score: 1
    "The fact that the car park is 4kms from the terminal building tells you all you need to know about Europe."

    No, I don't understand, tell me.
    - In Europe cars are not as important as in other places?
    - In Europe land is more heavily built up than elsewhere so they have to put car parks where they can?
    - In Europe they don't help car drivers much?
    - In Europe they put their emphasis on better public transport too and from airports so you don't really need a car? ... look forward to hearing from you...

  63. What about prostoalex by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1
    After being the #2 submitter at 312 submissions? http://slashdot.org/hof.shtml - it's still ad whoring

    So at #1 by a sizable margin over Roland, that makes prostoalex the uber ad whore?

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    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  64. Re:The difference is that it transports *individua by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Robot vehicles which run on normal road will be subject to the same performance problems of cars. They will have to stop for traffic lights, intersections and will be stopped by traffic congestion meaning the average speed is dreadful, a substantial investment in upgrading roads with no performance benefit. Plus the complexity of the road network means that sophisticated AI which doesnt exist yet would be required to handle unforseen events.

    You are quite correct that there is a substantial infrastructure investment required but it's a fraction of the cost of a road, a tiny fraction of rail and we can do it today.

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  65. Re:We don't need robots - we need shopping-cart ta by Incadenza · · Score: 1

    Basically your are describing 1998 technology, the Swiss CityCart. Which was in itself a progression of a Dutch experiment in 1972, the Witkar.

    Be warned: both projects were ended quite quickly. There are a lot of technological, social en political pitfalls on the way.

  66. Rail is just one of many forms of transport by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    It isn't a monopoly, it doesn't even carry a particularly large percentage of journeys, around 10% usually. Sure if you take it out of context and look at it without comparison to the other forms of transport which exist it is a natural monopoly. In reality there are viable alternatives which mean it isn't a monopoly situation.

    Alternatives include buses, taxis, trams, private automobiles, bicycles, motorcycles, prt and feet. Subsidising rail simply reduces the investment the competition will make in their services and makes change to a better more optimal system less likely. Subsidising rail actually reduces the diversity of transport alternatives because the competitors can't compete.

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    1. Re:Rail is just one of many forms of transport by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      No, the rails are a natural monopoly. And it certainly does carry a large percentage of journeys. Are you actually familiar with NYC and our subways? We're talking millions of riders per day. And in Manhattan especially, other than feet (no subsidy or services, beyond sidewalks - another government "natural monopoly"), there's no better way. All those other vehicles are worse in every way, for everyone but the rider.

      Eventually these packet cars should convince us to automate roada taxis. The city should still operate the natural monopoly of the roads, with privatized cars, like now. But of course we also tried privatized buses, which still compete badly with city buses. Not economically, but service quality.

      Transit competition and monopolies in many forms have been tested in NYC. Government monopoly wins. The problem is entirely in the state grabbing the power, which happened when NYC went broke in the mid-1970s and never returned, away from the city and its riders. That state MTA is the problem that's kept the system problematic. City control is more accountable to the riders, while avoiding the redundant waste and inequitable service to the city as a whole that competition proved. The only real change the system needs is returned control to the city government. I wouldn't be surprised if the new governor, Spitzer, does exactly that. I'll be applying for the job running it :).

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    2. Re:Rail is just one of many forms of transport by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1
      No, the rails are a natural monopoly. And it certainly does carry a large percentage of journeys. Are you actually familiar with NYC and our subways? We're talking millions of riders per day. And in Manhattan especially, other than feet (no subsidy or services, beyond sidewalks - another government "natural monopoly"), there's no better way. All those other vehicles are worse in every way, for everyone but the rider.


      I agreed with you on the rails being a natural monopoly if taken out of the wider context of other modes of transport. I'm not particularly familiar with the NYC subway, but am intimately familiar with the London Underground which provides a similar service for a similarly sized population. I think you'll find that the ridership of neither is representative of rail services state or country wide.

      Look if the alternatives are worse in every way, then people will continue to choose the subway over the alternatives whether subsidised or not.

      But of course we also tried privatized buses, which still compete badly with city buses. Not economically, but service quality.


      As I said, it's extremely difficult to compete against someone who's subsidised. They can be cheaper, hire more staff to provide a better service and still charge less money. The result being that the commercial service, starved of cash provides a poorer and poorer service, eventually fails.

      Transit competition and monopolies in many forms have been tested in NYC. Government monopoly wins.


      Inevitably in terms of cost for the ridership certainly. Transport investment though will inevitably stagnate, alternatives will be excluded and tax payers will pay hundreds per year to subsidise a service they rarely use.

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  67. Q/A for jerks forcing CabBot off road or fast stop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sounds cool... although I fear the day that it is illegal to manually drive your car... *BEEP* Your ex-girlfriend has filed a report on you *BEEP* driving to station...

    I hope they are also doing every conceivable test they can think of where one driver forces the CabBot off the road into another driver -- or forcing the CabBot into a quick stop, causing another driver to rear end the CabBot. I can see this happening alot especially when CabBot is empty between fares. Maybe bonus points for getting two CabBots to run into each other when empty?

    Although maybe in a CabBot I'll be able to drive over 5 miles an hour in the city! *drives around small child pushed off of sidewalk*

  68. What am I not getting? by tonymus · · Score: 1

    These cabs are driverless...what's to keep passengers from having sex and urinating/defecating in them? At least, with privately owned taxis, the owner will occasionally hose out the back seat...

    1. Re:What am I not getting? by Ian+Bicking · · Score: 1

      Ideally the system is set up so a user can reject a car -- it will then be sent in for maintenance/cleaning, and the user will just wait for the next car.

  69. Ruthless by floki · · Score: 1

    Doesn't anybody think of the poor young people studying philosophy, psychology, journalism, dramatics and ancient numismatics? Where should they get a decent job now?

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  70. ATC Re:Already done by sita · · Score: 1

    I personally trust a computer more to "stop for a red signal" than a driver, that maybe had a fight with his dear one the night before.

    Well, you don't need driverless trains for that. Most modern railways, trams etc use automatic train control that will bring trains to a halt if there is a red signal (or another train on the same control section etc etc). Of course these systems have problems braking for people, cars, deers and other obstacles that don't have transponders which is why you still require drivers on many trains.

  71. Personal Rapid Transit by another name by Internet+Dog · · Score: 1

    More information on the concept of Personal Rapid Transit sytems is available here for your enjoyment. The The Advanced Transit Association is an industry organization with many members from the PRT industry. The organization has a History of Personal Rapid Transit available.

  72. yes and no by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 1

    There would be some extra two way traffic, but by definition, if traffic is returning to pick up a second commuter, then not all commuters are on the road at once. Considering how long the commute traffic lasts around here, I'd guess only 25% or so are on the road at any given time, and even if the robotaxis had to make a round trip for each with the return trip being empty, that's still half the cars you'd need total.

    Besides, as someone else pointed out, by on the road I meant both parked and traveling, and part of the goal is to get rid of a lot of asphalt and parking lots, which robotaxis would do just fine. Even if the freeways were left intact, residential streets wouldn't be lined with parked cars doing nothing useful, and buildings wouldn't be surrounded by acres of parking lots doing nothing useful. I wonder what percentage of cities is wasted just parking cars? 20%? A lot, anyway, and that's what it would be wonderful to get rid of, in addition to reducing the amount of money wasted buying cars which do so little useful work by being parked so much of the time. And people would get the car needed for the task at hand, not the general purpose car which has to cover so many possibilities and thus is almost always bigger than needed.