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Concern Over Creating Black Holes
Maria Williams writes to tell us about worry surrounding the impending startup of CERN's Large Hadron Collider. Some fear that the device, in creating mini black holes, could jeopardize Life As We Know It. While the tiny black holes should evaporate quickly — throwing off so-called Hawking radiation that can be detected — CERN software developer Ran Livneh reminds us that "Any physicist will tell you that there is no way to prove that generated black holes will decay." The LHC site assures us there's nothing to worry about. The flap is reminiscent of the time the Relativistic Heavy Ion Collider went live. The worry then was that "negative strangelets" could gobble up the world.
Thanks.
For those who don't know, in the John Titor story, the CERN LHC allegedly lays the groundwork for using artificial black holes as part of a time machine (made for the military by General Electric, of course!).
(And no, John Titor is not a real time traveler.)
For example:
Along with the prediction of World War III, another notable prediction is that of a Civil war in America, which was predicted to begin in 2004, around the time of the presidential election, and would escalate until 2008, which, according to Titor, "[is] a general date by which time everyone will realize the world they thought they were living in was over."
Even statements like this are subjective and many people still choose to believe; I'm sure there are many slashdot readers (judging from the kind of posts I see here) who believe we are currently in a nascent "civil war" and that, indeed, the "world they thought they were living in was over." This is all typical vague crap that can be viewed a variety of different ways, Nostradamus-style, and never soundly disproven, conspiracy-theory-style. Even now, people are arguing that John Titor's visit may have allowed us to "change our future". Yeah, because the mental giants who believe the John Titor story have had a huge impact on things.
...
It's quite impressive how many people actually believe this tripe, though.
Nothing for you to see here. Please move along.
It's already begun!
m-
You catch enchiladas by picking them up behind the head and holding them underwater until they don't kick anymore -VeGas
As long as Gordon Freeman is there to watch over the experiment, I think we'll all be okay. Maybe.
I hear the Vortigaunts are our allies.
The worry then was that "negative strangelets" could gobble up the world.
You see, the problem is that we could all get sucked off before we know what's going on.
Summation 2
Seems to me that the only real problem with blowing this sort of thing off by saying "this is just like last time when we tried something that had a small chance of destroying the world and it worked out okay then" is that you really only have to be wrong once.
"Oh shit! Yeah, our bad -- man, are our faces red. Sorry about that, everybody."
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Well, it beats being hit by a bus....
Standing at the pearly gates it would be a great converstation starter... "oh yeah? I was killed by a black hole...."
....Hard On Collider? I think I'd prefer an earth swallowing black hole.
The black holes would only eat up Kurt Vonnegut. However, the efect would be the same as if they ate up the whole world, since it's all a figment of his imagination.
Bruce Perens.
Being cautious about a potentially real issue is one thing, but of course the big issue here is that collisions of similar energy happen, if not commonly, at least not entirely rarely due to cosmic rays. If the world could be destroyed by the side-effects of such a collision, we wouldn't be here to be nervous about it.
I've had this sig for three days.
Watch out if you let the Technocore help. Can we farcast off of Old Earth yet?
(see "Old Earth": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperion_Cantos)
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Of course there's a way. Empirical research, just like they're doing. First you make a black hole, then you see if it expands until it destroys all life on earth. Simple, straight forwards, effective.
Where are they? Gone.
Civilizations routinely destroy their home planet by creating miniature black holes thereupon whilst trying to figure out what makes them tick. Technology advances faster than democracy, and it has never yet in the long history of the universe been put to a vote.
If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.
Some scientists were very concerned the first atomic bomb would produce so much heat it would ignite the atmosphere and burn the entire surface of the earth. Fortunately it didn't happen. But it's good that people bring up these ideas so we challenge assumptions and try to be safe while still advancing science.
Developers: We can use your help.
This is the reason that the Earth entry was changed from "Harmless" to "Mostly harmless".
Kindness is the language which the deaf can hear and the blind can see. - Mark Twain
...Yet
Edward Teller speculated that an atomic weapon could ignite the atmosphere. Another physicist discredited and disproved the idea, but the fear wasn't laid to rest until the actual weapons were used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Project (wikipedia, blah blah blah)
Cthulhu Saves.
While the tiny black holes should evaporate quickly...
The biggest word in that sentence is should.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Primary cosmic rays impact the earth all the time, and these often have far higher energies than even our largest particle accelerators are capable of producing. For any experiment we attempt, we can be reasonably sure that colliding cosmic rays have already produced the same results, sometime within the past few billions years. If we could create massively destructive black holes through our particle accelerators, one would expect that stray cosmic rays would have already done so.
It's natural to fear what you don't understand. It might even be a quality of a species that determines its success as many things in nature are quite dangerous. For better or for worse, mankind has this built in as a default setting no matter who you are whether you're fearing a black hole or suffering from xenophobia.
I am not a physicist but I think the fears here are quite unfounded. All the math and theory point to a black hole having a finite event horizon. If the black holes they are producing are microscopic and last relatively little amount of time, they shouldn't be very dangerous. I think this has been covered before.
It is interesting though, because I believe a black hole's event horizon has a radius proportionate to the amount of mass it consumes. I believe that if you make them small enough, however, they don't last long enough to expand. I would be concerned if they were attempting to make massive singularities to destroy garbage heaps with these but I don't see how those would be possible to create as the only known method is to accumulate so much mass in such a small volume that gravity crushes it into a singularity. My understanding of the collider is that it smashes particles together at a fast rate and, as a result, very tiny and brief black holes may result. As this article states:
People will, as always, fear what they don't understand so I believe it's hopeless to quell all fears about physics research. I'm sure a lot of people are concerned about this being the next "atomic bomb" technology. Where we "drop" black holes on enemies. Though that doesn't really make sense, it still could have military applications such as creating electromagnetic devices that are so strong they displace gravity and aiming them at your enemies. Sure would make for a cheesy sci-fi book whether it was true or not!
My work here is dung.
This type of fear occurred many times during the nuclear physics history, when higher and higher energies were explored. The answer against fears of unknown catastrophic effect has been that some cosmic rays are much more energetic than any artificially accelerated particles (10^21 eV for some cosmic rays in comparison to the feeble 10^12 eV in today accelerators such as LHC). For sure the Earth and the Sun did already receive zillons of cosmic rays without disappearing...
For example, there are as yet little-understood phenomena that can accelerate particles six orders of magnitude faster than anything achievable in a lab. Try reading about Ultra-high-energy cosmic rays.
More specifically read the story of the Oh-My-God Particle. This was a proton detected in October of 1991 that had an energy of 3.2 * 10^20 eV. The equivalent energy of a baseball thrown at 55 mph... all in a single proton travelling at 99.99999999999999999999951% the speed of light!
While something travelling that fast has little probability of interacting with anything you could imagine the surprise if one of those hit you! I think that the fact we are alive with such powerful forces already at work in our universe means we have little to fear.
I work one of the LHC expirements (low-level grad student, no one important), and this is utter crap.
Yes, there are physicists who are concerned. There is a chance that this could happen - one of those "if everything we know about high energy physics is completely wrong, this could happen". There is an approximately equal chance that Pat Buchanan will be nominated as the Democrat candidate for president in 2008. No physicist can prove that this won't happen - just like no physicist can actually prove that Superman doesn't exist.
Unfortunately, it's about the only way a reporter can "sexy up" a story about a particle accelerator. I can't wait to see the headlines in 2007 - "Will the Earth end tomorrow?" (subheading: "Respectable scientists say 'No'").
What will happen?
We'll all die. Simultaneously. Noone will feel anything.
What's the big problem aside from the end of the earth?
"Has anyone seen my car keys? I set them right next to the collider."
This reminds when I read Brian Greene's Elegant Universe, he mentioned that there was a possibilty of creating another Universe when (if it were possible) smashing together Superstrings. Something like that, I'm not sure where I put the book.
before the big asteroid or comet comes. Or the sun goes red giant. Or the sun shoots off enough matter to defeat the ozone and expose us all to radiation. (Yes, I have heard this one.) Oh, or Yellowstone goes all explosion on us and brings about a second ice age or something. (There was a Docu-drama on this one.) Oh, or maybe the moon can be partially destroyed and threaten to crash into earth. (Reference to a ABC Family comedy or in some ways to Cowboy Bebop). Oh, or nuclear winter. I am sure I forgot some.
But better us then nature!
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Knowing the government and their previous actions on subjects like this I think they have already experimented with the mini black holes. Most scientific information that would give the general public a stir is withheld for many years until the people are ready. I believe that black holes are not time traveling devices, but more of a door to a new universe. Black holes suck in anything and everything, including light. Our universe started from a Singularity in which matter was infinitely compressed and space and time was infinitely distorted. Black holes compress and distort matter and time. Put two and two together and what do you have? The birth of our universe. I believe our universe was born inside of a black hole and that we are currently living and evolving inside of it. Thus means every black hole we see out in space possibly is a gateway to another universe. Tell me what you think?
working in a small cubicle, doing nothing that will ever even change the world, while these guys are working on a project that could destroy the world! I'm so jealous... I've made bad choices.
...that the world won't end as a result of this experiment. Any takers?
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
I don't know how old Hogan's book is, but in 1990 or so David Brin wrote
Earth
where an artificial black hole grows out of control and slowly eats the planet earth from the inside out.
Thats Fermi's Paradox!:
h tml
"The story goes that, one day back on the 1940's, a group of atomic scientists, including the famous Enrico Fermi, were sitting around talking, when the subject turned to extraterrestrial life. Fermi is supposed to have then asked, "So? Where is everybody?" What he meant was: If there are all these billions of planets in the universe that are capable of supporting life, and millions of intelligent species out there, then how come none has visited earth? This has come to be known as The Fermi Paradox.
Fermi realized that any civilization with a modest amount of rocket technology and an immodest amount of imperial incentive could rapidly colonize the entire Galaxy. Within a few million years, every star system could be brought under the wing of empire. A few million years may sound long, but in fact it's quite short compared with the age of the Galaxy, which is roughly ten thousand million years. Colonization of the Milky Way should be a quick exercise."
http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/cosmo/lectures/lec28.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
Oh god, oh god, we're all going to die?
Reminds me of the boot Thrice Upon a Time by James P. Hogan where one of the scenarios is the world is destroyed by a CERN fusion generators that uses inertial confinement and ends up producing mini black holes as a byproduct.
"Condoleezza" - two Es, two Zs, just remember "very EZ".
Ahhh, so that's what happened to her teeth...
See Doomsday Fears at RHIC in particular the reference Review of Speculative "Disaster Scenarios" at RHIC
i\hbar\dot{\psi}=\hat{H}\psi
There is an assumption in all of this, that the singularity is a point in space/time. This is how it is normally considered, but it is by no means the only interpretation that would be valid. Evaporation only applies within this assumption because entropy can only ever increase and the entropy of a physical point singularity that did not evaporate would be a constant. If a singularity does not exist as a point (there are other solutions, such as a "Kerr Ring Singularity") or doesn't actually exist as a physical entity at all (see below for a trivial theory where that would work), then all bets are off.
This is a "just for amusement" theory, for the sole purpose of illustrating a singularity that would not violate the second law of thermodynamics and still not evaporate. Let us say that a singularity does have infinite gravity at the point at which it "exists", and that the curvature of space/time is a direct function of gravity, then what we call a singularity would not actually exist as an object. At all. What you would have is a "well" of essentially zero diameter where the sides were orthogonal to space and along the axis of time in a negative direction. The notion that "space and time end at a singularity" would not be true to an observer within the Universe, as they would not experience the well as anything other than a continuation of space. However, space would then not be simply-connected and it would be mathematically possible to show that there were mathematically definable points within an otherwise well-defined region that could not be reached.
Now for the well itself. It cannot stop within the universe, because there are no forces along that axis. F=ma, so if F=0, then a=0. Nor can it continue forever, because it's going along the axis of time and time does not continue forever. There is exactly one place such a well could terminate, that being the moment of the Big Bang. (It stops there because there's nothing more to travel along.) It would be an express trip, there would be no possibility of getting off anywhere else. So it's just as well that, if this correct, anything that fell in would be crushed into quantum foam. Nothing else is going to fit in a well of zero diameter. Hawking's theory of imaginary time becoming real time would certainly fit this description.
This theory would require that (a) black holes can only ever expand, (b) hawking radiation would contain equal numbers of particles and anti-particles (which would explain why we have such trouble finding any), (c) the recently-proved Poincare hypothesis does NOT apply to space/time, as it is no longer simply-connected, and therefore the Universe is NOT topologically equivalent to a hypersphere (which is going to upset the Chinese and Russians no end), and (d) the Hubble constant absolutely must be below 1.
(That last one might not be obvious, so I'll explain. This theory recycles matter and energy through time to the big bang. Since you have a Universe's worth of matter/energy, you would not need inflation theory - which is "good" because inflation is an ugly hack whose chief benefit is that it works vastly better than every other mainstream theory in existance. But you can't guarantee that the whole Universe is recycled if the Universe is open. You can only guarantee 100% recycling if every possible photon and every possible particle is absolutely
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Back then, the "republican" conservatives opposed the expansion of slavery and made freeing the slaves a goal. I believe they actually won the election before the civil war. Techically, Lincoln started out as a "whig", although by then the whig party was split along pro-slave/anti-slave lines and most of the anti-slave whigs (including Lincoln) became republicans by the time of the election.
Often, the pro-slave ex-whigs called themselves the "conservatives" (in an attempt to reconcile the whig party), but they mostly just teamed up with the democrats in the south and of course the democrats lost that antebellum election and the conservative "republicans" won.
Perhaps you can make the case that technically the north-conservatives won and the south-conservatives lost, but I don't think that makes your case...
Every black hole in existence in the universe is a result of some fairly advanced civilization reaching a point where each eventually says "Hey, let's build a Large Hadron Collider and see what happens".
The rest, as they say, is astronomical history....
Why does this keep coming up? Natural ultra-high energy (UHE) cosmic rays have vastly higher energies and do no such thing. The highest-energy cosmic ray recorded is 300 EeV (that's exaelectron-volts -- 3 x 1020 eV. We get showered by these cosmic rays all the time; if high-energy particle collisions were going to make miniature black holes which somehow don't evaporate and kill us all, then it would have happened long before the Earth finished forming.
For the black-hole-fearing crowd... RIAA/MPAA morphed into a black hole a long time ago.
If not then I might go on with my life and not to bother with this.
If he is worried then I guess I should stop saving for my retirement fund.
Exactly. And here's me thinking all the negative strangelets just hung out on MySpace.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
The remaining six paragraphs (!) are not even wrong. You're not a physicist, are you?