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Munich Finally Starts to Embrace Linux
sankyuu writes "After years of rumor and vacillation over fear of patents, the city of Munich has decided to trickle in its first 100 linux terminals. The floodgates are scheduled to fling open by 2008, when 80% of government PCs should be running Linux."
Meaning the 80% of government boxes running Linux will be supplied immediately by a floodgate that's scheduled to open on that year itself?
Amazing.
Welley Corporation - SLM Scammers
The current projected costs are 35 Million Euros (up from 30 Million) to convert 14,000 computers.
2,500 Euros per computer.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
They fail to mention how many government servers have been running linux behind-the-scenes for years. Changes are, at least a handful. I realize the excitement of this is in bringing Linux to the desktop, but people aren't always aware of its presence, even when quietly surrounded by it. Now I don't have any facts on Munich's server architecture, so I could very well be wrong.
Snarkiness aside, I think this is a cool project. It'll be interesting to see who else follows Munich's lead, and what ol' Ballmer aims to do about it. Maybe he'll chuck a chair (doh.. there's that snarkiness again... time for me to creep back into my hidey hole).
Support a true independent artist - Leila Lopez
The article keeps emphasizing how hard it has been so far (to move over 100 computers, and 200 by the end of the year).
After reading all that, this seems like a lie:
"Schiessl said it would be impossible to migrate all users to open source, but that 80 percent would move across by between late-2008 and mid-2009."
It should be noted that Mayor Christian Ude's PC is slated to be among the first batch of systems to run the Debian-based Linux-desktop Munich will be using.
Windows 2000 - from the guys who brought us edlin
Heh. Misread that summary as "Linux urinals". I was wondering what sort of benefit Linux could bring to the porcelain pots.
But seriously, I am surprised more governments don't move to Linux as a terminal/front end solution anyway. With more services being handled on central computers far away from the actual customer access points, it doesn't really make sense to have full-featured OSes put in place only to hobble them with security software. It is better to create simple remote terminals which can run programs remotely over the network, saving hardware costs and reducing IT headaches.
Linux, of course, is not a hobbled OS by any means. Rather, it is up to the OS configuration expert how to set up the terminals and restrict the installable files from the outset. Compared with trying to tie down a Win98 or WinXP box, this is much easier. Especially considering the latest distros' ability to easily customize the OS during installation (with very good pre-configurations) and system cloning tools, Linux ought to be at the fore of any IT decision maker's list. Not to mention that installation and additional licenses cost nothing, it makes sense that governments would look to Linux.
the standard configuration will be Debian GNU/Linux 3.1, KDE 3.5 and OpenOffice 2.
however, the main reason for the delays and the slow roll-out are that a lot of custom applications had to be ported and for some existing client/server apps interfaces had to be created from scratch.
cheers from Munich,
Andreas
Why Debian? Not that I'm implying that Debian is a bad distribution but isn't SuSE HQ practically in their back yard (Nürnberg) ?? Or has Novell uprooted SuSE development and moved the entire outfit to the USA ??
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
They tried. They gave them every chance to come up with a better operating system. They even delayed the switch to Linux by many years to give them a chance. Even now, they're giving them until 2008 to get at least some share of the cake.
But Microsoft just couldn't get Longhorn ready in time.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Some Open Source headways in Europe, indeed, can clearly be seen in EU site.
Quite heartening indeed! Maybe the big conservative companies will finaly notice this trend. I am sure Microsoft did.
I am not Remy Mouton, unfortunately: http://remy.mouton.free.fr/art/
They're taking a big one-time hit although. Once they've rewritten/replaced all their software and migrated their data the cost to add new units will be significantly lower.
I agree with you and I don't understand why so many people assume that a migration from a Windows infrastructure to an OSS one will cost €0.00? If Munich is going ahead and doing this in the first place they might want to make some fundamental changes to their IT infrastructure since they will be ripping the guts out it anyway. Take for example the proposition of replacing dumb Windows PCs that just stand around all day giving users access to a single application (Why pay a Windows XP license for every one of those PCs?) with Linux based thin clients. In this case they might be factoring the replacement of some quantities of computer equipment and infrastructure changes into that figure of €30 million. Then of course there are the costs of testing the whole system, the costs of writing custom software to aid in the migration of entire data bases, websites and other applications previously hosted on Windows 2003+MSSQL+IIS to open source platforms, porting custom made GUI applications/clients to Linux or replacing them with new webapps. I can see why the costs would go up but in the long run I agree with you that their costs should go down as a result of this measure if they handle the project properly which, admittedly, is asking a lot of a German bureaucracy. I would really like to see a financial breakdown and progress report of this project when they are done, this project is really interesting due to it's scale.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
The cost of switching would apply both in both directions of an OS migration. What Linux has in it's favour is that it's support for Microsoft closed formats (e.g. via Openoffice) is far better than the reverse. Once documents are in open formats it's hard to make a case to back out.
I do wonder whether we'll start to see Microsoft supporting these Open Standards as a way to ease the migration path back - supported of course by heavy subsidies on licensing.
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
This has to be strongly related to recent EU regulations regarding Microsoft; okay, so they're no longer recent, but they recently threatened to enforce them.
Cornholio is a prophet.
...not to go back.
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
The sentence should read, "Munich Finally Starts Implementing Linux."
The embrace happened a few years ago. It's (Linux) implementation is what has just happened. By the way...does anyone know whether it's KDE or GNOME at the forefront here?
You obviously have little experience with IT and logistics of IT. At my work, they charge over $3500 (in Norwegian money) internally just for setting up a new computer with network. So if this is the total cost, I'd say it is actually pretty cheap considering they don't need to upgrade licenses once the transition has been made. New PCs can simply be cloned without the headache of licenses, and then upgraded with nightly jobs. However, there'll still be lots to pay in the support and administration.
Do you really think 40-60k salaries are based on small figures? Not so in big companies. You'd be surprised how much money it costs for a big company to pay just one extra person, with support and computer and all personell administration. Even if you hardly see the "work" being done yourself.
Probably won't be doing much migrating next month.
Munix?
Meta will eat itself
How do you spend 35 million, or 2500 per workstation, to migrate it all to debian? I could call a few friends and we'd do it for half the price. The only logical explanation is that they're also replacing the hardware, but there is no mention of it in TFA.
my capcha was condom
I hope the Germans have a better missile defense system than we do. Intercontinental Ballmer Missiles (ICBM) incoming!
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
My God...all those poor people's heads spontainiously exploding...it'll be a janitoral nightmare! We have to stop those terminals!!!
How is that flamebait? I was only quoting what I read off my Linux box' screen...
After staying in Germany, people seem to get y's and j's all mixed up...
I have never been satisfied with OpenOffice. There's always something I need to do that doesn't work right or documents don't look right, etc. I really wish it was an office replacement, but it's not. I guess if everyone uses it, then it doesn't matter since it handles it's own documents fine... It will be interesting to read about for sure.
Reality is nothing but a collective hunch.
2,500 Euros per computer
The cost are so high because somewhere between 100-200 third party applications have to be rewritten since these applications are currently Windows-only applications. Most of this rewriting will be done with Java, so it's just a matter of time when the next rewrite will come.
Only 80% of the computers will be switched to Linux because several of these third party applications can't be rewritten since it would be too expensive or no knowledge is around. There's some expectation that once in the future all these cases will finally become obsolete but nobody tries to give an estimate when.
O. Wyss
See http://wyoguide.sf.net/papers/Cross-platform.html
There are a lot of Microsoft sales and marketing employees in Munich (well over 1000). If all those non-technical goverment employees turn out to be happy with their new unfamiliar Linux desktops, then it will truly be a revolution, and might cause many very good sales people to desert Microsoft and setup competition.
On the otherhand, if they mostly don't like the experience then it will get rapidly and publicly tossed out by the next goverment, and will likely set Desktop Linux back 10 years in Europe.
Frankly, I would not bet on Linux in this situation. To my experience modern German Beauracrats are poor-learners, unmotiviated and like to complain about things. The fact that the project has got a lot of bad press, was initiated by an overly-idealogical Red/Green alliance, and has been running late bodes ill. And I read that it cost almost double what Microsoft claimed their solution would have cost. The latter is probably standard sales propaganda, but most people believe what they read.
By the end of 2008 we should know how it turns out.
for the price of free, OpenOffice is at least a hundred times better than MS office (or should I say a hundred dollars better). I also actually prefer the look of Open office now anyway, it just seems to be a lot crisper. It sure could use some work in its menu systems, simply because it has so many powerful options and they're not always in the expected place, but getting used to it doesn't take too long.
as for format differences of files, blame Microsoft for creating a propietary file format and locking you into paying for a product that you could otherwise get for free (aka openoffice.org)
The problem is that Microsoft have kept the details of their proprietary file format secret. There is no way for OpenOffice to properly implement it.
OpenDocument specifications are available and anyone is allowed to implement the format, so it is up to Microsoft to make their software work properly.
Can I suggest, rather than making up nonsense words, use an existing word? I think "encouraging" fits in the context of your sentence, and has the significant benefit that we already know what it means. Dean
The subject who is truly loyal to the Chief Magistrate will neither advise nor submit to arbitrary measures (Junius)
Specially if you deduct from this cost the scheduled expenditure during the normal life of a system.
But no, the Windows apologists (I feel tempted to call them appeasers, since it is a nice little dirty word you can throw at your ideological oponents nowadays with marvelous results) never mention that there is a cost to be met there anyway, no matter which infrastructure one uses.
But I guess many US citizens (at least half of them) o no longer understand these finer points of good governance (hint: in a democracy cst is not everything. Cheapest is not always better because there are political ramifications of technological decisions).
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
All that "IP" contained in MS products has to be paid for.
When you stop paying for that you pay for local people's skills, not for marketing scams in order to milk the same code for all what is worth it selling it in who know how many unnecessarily diferentiated versions.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
By adopting open source solutions, Munich is incentivating the creation and growth of a local market for training is incentivating a word?
For years and years my grandson the computer genius (he answers the phones when people have broken computers) has been pestering me to "upgrade" my computer to this linux thing. Now, he's smart and all, but I keep telling him - "not yet." Well, today is the day I've been waiting for. I've been keeping my eyes on the newspapers, waiting to read a certain combination of words - "Munich Finally Starts to Embrace Linux". Now that Munich, my "guidepost" to all things important in this world, has shown me the way, I'm finally ready for linux on my desktop.
Red Hat
SuSE (Novell)
Sun
IBM
HP
DIY (if you want to and can afford it)
and many others.
You can migrate a working solution from one provider to another when you want to, if you want to and you have competition for your custom which drives down costs.
With MS software you upgrade when they tell you to what they tell you in the terms that are most convenient to them because there is nobody out there that can provide an alternative solution (unless it has become a piece of cake to move stuff out of IIS or MS SQL servers, which I venture to say it hasn't).
The formats in Linux based solutions are all open. SO if one company gives you the cold shoulder you take your fully accessible data (including documents, go on, check how OpenOffice stores data) and go and play elsewhere.
If MS would tell you you can't use their software (because perhaps you are fed up with the insecurity and forced upgrade cycles) you would look to all your data in arcane formats that would be unreadeable.
And last but not least, why so many people are absolutley not bothered by doing bussiness with a company that once and again is breaking the law or testing it to its limits? Most sane people don't trade with persons or companies with a doubtful reputation, but MS being a market leader seems to have carved a little place in the hearts of many people no matter how many immoral or illegal actions they commit.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Who cares about Munich, apart from Oktoberfest?
Dont mistake the EU for the government or administration of Europe. Germany is very much an independent country with its own political structure and system. The EU court is located in Luxembourg where it tries cases of unionwide importance. Everything else is left to the national governments and the local legal apparatus. The EU system is NOT like the federal government of the US (yet).
"Besides, I'm uncomfortable with that as an explanation."
Too bad. It probably played a big part in picking KDE over Gnome.
My guess it probably went something like this.
German guy: We need to move to Linux.
Expert: What desktop do you want to use?
German Guy: Umm... We want to use Linux.
Expert: No you have to pick which user interface you want for the desktop.
German Guy: What are my choices.
Expert: Well you have a lot of options but KDE and Gnome are the two most popular.
German Guy: Okay what is the difference?
Expert: Well KDE was started here in Germany and....
German Guy: Will it do what we need?
Expert: Yes it should.
German Guy: Okay lets use KDE.
Not really anything evil about it KDE is a good desktop and has German roots. If you have two "equal" choices then it is human nature to go with the native suppler.
I think that Gnome is the better work environment but then KDE feels a lot more like windows. It could be the comfort level of KDE was why they went with it.
The other reason that someone might pick KDE over Gnome is QT.
QT is object oriented and frankly a really nice development environment. Much better then GTK and I am using GTK right now. It maybe that they found it easier to port their applications to QT than to GTK. Logical then if you are going to use QT you might as well use KDE so you can take full advantage of the QT/KDE integration.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think a lot of people are overlooking the fact that managing PC-like hardware as thin clients (using either Linux or Windows) does not mean they qualify as "PCs". The thin client experience of having little-or-no control over the software and data on your desktop is not really a part of the PC movement, which championed user-installable software (and even sneakernet) over networked terminals and centrally-controlled software.
People eventually brought PCs into the home because they felt like they had some control when using them at work. When their "DP" department was beng recalcitrant/lazy, they could use PCs to end-run around the mainframe culture.
A thick client is somewhat more 'personal', having significant local data storage.
In any case, Linux advocates shouldn't necessarily look to these municipal and corporate desktop conversions as a large-scale expansion of OSS into PC operating systems and culture. We should continue to ask whether a common platform for personal computing has emerged, one that facilitates independant (non-repository) software distribution on CDs and single downloadable files. Otherwise, Linux terminals might come to be synonymous with cost-cutting measures that can stifle worker innovation, suitable for people with menial jobs like cashier or data clerk.
Lots of muslims with modpoints, apparently...
Let them show that we're not afraid! If we're afraid to lose karma, the terrorists have already won!