A Mac Fan's Take On Vista

Painfully Subjective Review by eldavojohn · 2006-09-28 02:50 · Score: 5, Insightful

I'll just out and say it -- Ken Mingis is just looking for bells & whistles. He's not in search of the 'best' operating system, just looking for the one that can waste CPU cycles while making the user ooh and ahh.

Here's something you could have figured out for me: how efficient are these effects? What's the net cost of having Aqua or Aero? Do these graphical interfaces leave sasquatch sized memory footprints? Are Gadgets & Widgets memory efficient? Does all this extra shit cause any more bugs than a regular operating system without them?

Big deal. Call me when you write an object review. I want to know which of these operating systems will run on my old ass laptop with a low end P4 in it. Not all of us have the new intel core 2 duos.

Congratulations, four pages of inundating me with ads, bitching about UAC & falling head over heels for Aero. Sounds like every other Vista review I've read.

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My work here is dung.

Re:Painfully Subjective Review by finkployd · 2006-09-28 03:23 · Score: 4, Insightful

Big deal. Call me when you write an object review. I want to know which of these operating systems will run on my old ass laptop with a low end P4 in it. Not all of us have the new intel core 2 duos.

Neither, you will run XP or Linux/Solaris/*BSD, those are your options. Or buy a new computer, which is really what they want.

To put it another way, Apple and Microsoft could very easily produce a modern *-lite version of their respective OSes and sell them to people with older or not maxed out hardware and probably keep a high percentage of the population happy with just that. However that will not help Apple (or MS's hardware partners) sell new machines that most people don't really need, so it will not happen.

Excluding gamers, developers, and people who work a lot with media (photoshop, video editing, etc), a 500Mhz box running windows 98 with office, outlook, and IE serves the vast majority just fine, but where is the profit in that?(*)

And even though Gnome and KDE are not doing much better, fortunetely there exists fluxbox and xfce for those who think an 1GHz P3 should still be usable as a desktop machine.

(*) note: windows 98 is criminally insecure, and not being patched anymore, I don't recommend you do this.

Finkployd
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by TheRaven64 · 2006-09-28 03:38 · Score: 4, Informative
Here's something you could have figured out for me: how efficient are these effects? What's the net cost of having Aqua or Aero? Do these graphical interfaces leave sasquatch sized memory footprints? Are Gadgets & Widgets memory efficient?
Here are some subjective comments from someone who operates two laptops - a ThinkPad running FreeBSD and a PowerBook running OS X - which I hope will answer your questions on the Os X side.
- Aqua is fast. All windows are buffered, and so dragging them around only causes a small CPU spike. This was bigger before Quartz Extreme, because it was all handled on the CPU. Now it's done on the GPU, and even my old S3 ViRGE could handle compositing opaque textures easily (the shadows around the edges, and any transparent windows require a little more power, but not too much).
- Aqua is quite memory intensive. A moderate size window is likely to require about a 3MB buffer. Assuming it's double buffered, guess 4MB (we'll allow for some smaller windows in the average). Now multiply that by the number of windows you have. You're looking at a lot of memory just for this. I don't know how much of it is VRAM, but on my system it amounts to more than my total VRAM so it can't be all unless they use some form of lossless texture compression.
- Widgets have a big memory footprint. Each one seems to have its own instance of the Javascript runtime (probably for security reasons). 20MB of real memory each seems a good approximation. Invoking the dashboard after doing other memory intensive things will cause a lot of swapping.
Widgets, I could easily live without. There doesn't seem much point in having them written in Javascript other than buzzword compliance. Let me write them in a language that doesn't require a hefty runtime (or, at least, one where the runtime overhead can be shared more efficiently), and I might change my mind.
Aqua, however, is worth the cost. Memory is cheap; this machine has 1.5GB in it, which is slightly more than I actually need (it struggles a bit with 1GB, I have some spare in 1.5GB), and it's a couple of years old. If the cost of a more responsive UI is more RAM, I'll pay it. When compositing support stabilises in x.org, I'll probably enable it there as well.
More bugs? Hard to quantify. I've encountered bugs in Quartz (a lot in Quartz 2D Extreme, which is why it's not enabled by default in spite of being faster), and I've encountered bugs in x.org. In a purely hand waving manner, I would say I've encountered more bugs in Quartz, but more serious bugs in x.org, so it probably evens out in the end.
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I am TheRaven on Soylent News
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by DurendalMac · 2006-09-28 04:05 · Score: 2, Informative

I've used the 10.5 developer preview, and while it naturally lacks a lot of system polish (a 38GB swapfile!), Dashboard is already eating far less RAM. That gives me hope for 10.5, especially since capturing any part of a webpage into a Widget makes it far more useful.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by cooley · 2006-09-28 04:45 · Score: 4, Informative

from the OP:
Hmmmm... Gadgets and widgets. What's that line about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?...

I'm so tired of hearing this. I'm not disputing that Microsoft took some good ideas from OSX for Vista, but one thing needs clarified. "Widgets" didn't originate in Mac OSX. I was using Konfabulator (now owned by Yahoo) Widgets in both Windows and OSX before 'Widgets" were part of the OS in either.

Seems like I was using gdesklets (more widgets) in Gnome before OSX introduced their Widgets, too.

Since the OSX Widgets are so similar to the pre-existing Konfabulator Widgets (and even share the same name) I guess I just assumed that Apple licensed the Konfabulator software (though I don't know that, it was just an assumption).

I'm not a fanboy of either OSX or Windows, so please don't take this as that sort of slam. I don't have a problem with people noting which ideas have been obviously copied, I just hate to see incorrect statements repeated over and over.

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Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by dal20402 · 2006-09-28 04:47 · Score: 2, Interesting

I quite like using OS X, but I have been very disappointed with its performance, even on relatively fast machines like my mum's G5 iMac, dual-processor G5 PowerMacs and Core Duo Minis (although my Mini is memory constrained with only 512MB). On my 1Ghz/768MB iBook, it's frustratingly slow to use more than one app at a time (and even the one can get chunky).
Not enough memory.
Just like Aero, Aqua is a huge memory hog. I'm happy to pay for additional memory as part of the "OS X premium," but the frustrating part is when older machines can't physically accept enough memory. I realize that those of you who created a VR world on your 16k calculator watch will keel over dead at the ugliness of these memory requirements, but I really don't care.
On a PowerPC machine, the sweet spot for everyday use with 3-6 apps open at once is around 1.25GB. On an Intel machine, memory requirements are higher. For OS X use without any virtualization, at least 1.5GB is needed; if you want to run Parallels and do anything useful (i.e. at least 512MB on the Windows side) you need 2GB. If, like on your Mini, you have integrated graphics, you pretty much want 2GB no matter what.
If you have enough memory, the CPU performance of the machine is far less important. A 400MHz PowerMac G4 with the max 2 gigs of RAM doesn't feel snappy (menus draw a little slowly, etc.) but it launches apps quickly, swaps between them quickly, and has no problem with all the eye candy. It would be less frustrating to use than a Core Duo Mini with 512MB RAM, and certainly better than a 600MHz P3 trying to run Aero.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by mbourgon · 2006-09-28 04:58 · Score: 2, Informative

"Widgets" didn't originate in Mac OSX. I was using Konfabulator (now owned by Yahoo) Widgets in both Windows and OSX before 'Widgets" were part of the OS in either.

The first place I saw widgets were in the NeXTStep OS, circa 1993. Mac OS X was not the originator, but it's what popularized it.

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"Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by BlueCodeWarrior · 2006-09-28 04:58 · Score: 2, Informative

And I was using Desk Accessories even before that.

(almost) Every idea works off of previous ones.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by tbone1 · 2006-09-28 05:00 · Score: 2, Informative

Actually, Konfabulator may not have been the first with the Widgets idea. I seem to recall Apple's OS 6 having this as well.
So the more things change, ...

--

The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-28 05:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

The crux of the Apple marketing campaign right now is to accuse Microsoft of copying Apple's amazing "innovative" ideas that, on average, aren't really Apple's ideas. You can't blame the poor Mac followers for sharing the gospel as Apple taught it to them. They don't know any better.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by cyber-dragon.net · 2006-09-28 05:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

Not disputing your point... but one thing you have to realize is what apple is good at. Making things work better and making things work RIGHT. They can take something like an OS or an mp3 player and add STYLE. Sure it has been done before but they do it the way you wish everyone else had done it and did not even know it until you saw theirs.

I am sure I will be labeled as a Mac fan-boy since no one could possible legitimately like a Mac, as opposed to windows, and it must be some form of brian washing.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by finkployd · 2006-09-28 05:36 · Score: 4, Insightful

What you miss, is those new UI features. Are they really that important?

A better question is: "without those new UI features, is Vista really that important?"

Most of the really cool features have long been stripped out of Vista, so you are effectivly paying a lot of money for XP+DRM, which is clearly the real reason for Vista to exist.

Finkployd
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by dan828 · 2006-09-28 05:40 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yep. And I've already been told by one of the Mac faithful about this great new feature that will be in Leopard called "spaces", where you'll be able to have multiple virtual desktops, not knowing that Linux has had such functionality for years.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by WageDomain · 2006-09-28 05:51 · Score: 2, Informative

Windows has this function too, you just can't access it with the out-of-the-box install, it requires a special addon to actually enable it. If I remember, what they did was write the code to implement it, then decided against it and removed any way to access it. Also, I'm pretty sure this was from Windows NT, so all NT based OSes potentially have this feature.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by Al+Dimond · 2006-09-28 06:22 · Score: 2, Informative

I've never tried this add-on, but a friend tells me it's totally half-assed. Not half-assed as in "it can't do everything FVWM can do", half-assed as in, "you can crash it by closing the GUI widget and then using the keybindings". Haven't tested it myself, but it's about what I'd expect after trying their mouse-focus add-on, which had race conditions in it (as of about a year ago). The Windows UI works OK; it would be better (for me) with multiple desktops and mouse-focus if they were done right, but they apparently aren't ready for serious use now and probably never will be.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by moosesocks · 2006-09-28 06:29 · Score: 3, Informative

Don't confuse Aqua with the Finder.

Apple users and Windows users alike agree that the Finder is a huge steaming pile of crap that should have been completely overhauled a few versions back. It's not multithreaded, it isn't particularly elegant, and hasn't really evolved much since the OS 7 days (yikes!).

If you're performing an operation within the Finder that hits some sort of bottleneck (ie. a slow network link, unresponsive storage device, etc.), the entire system grinds to a halt. Likewise, the Finder performs comprably on my 450mhz G4 from 7 years ago as it does on my Core Duo Mini.

Aqua itself is pretty snappy. If you're interacting with applications directly (and not the finder), the system is fast and responsive provided that there's enough RAM. The 7-year old G4 still runs all the day-to-day software I use regularly just fine. There's a bit of a lag for graphical stuff like Expose or drawing long menus, but I suppose that you could attribute that to the 7-year old graphics card. Mind you, this is a computer that shipped with MacOS 8.6 on it when it was new. The latest version of Final Cut Pro runs unbelievably fast on it, with almost no UI lag. Rendering is a different story, but of course, that's to be expected.

I'll agree that Windows is probably the "snappier" of the two operating systems when running a well-equipped system, although this would appear to be due to a single software bottleneck (the finder). Apple, however, has done an incredibly admirable job of supporting their old hardware with new software releases. Try running XP (or Vista if you're feeling masochistic) on a 500mhz Pentium.

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-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by Drakino · 2006-09-28 06:35 · Score: 2, Informative

Spaces actually interests me greatly and is likely to be the first time I use a virtual desktop. It finally advances the virtual desktop concept by also wrapping it around expose. Hit a key, and now you see every virtual desktop and can drag windows between them.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1254656550 190215821 is a video of it in action.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by SEMW · 2006-09-28 06:39 · Score: 2, Informative

Not to mention that Windows has also had virtual desktops since 2001 (although the implementation is admittedly inferior to Spaces). I assume Mac fanboys choose to ignore that since as you have to download it they regard it as 'not technically part of the OS'; but personally I'd rather have it as a free download than pay $129 for it...

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What's purple and commutes? An Abelian grape.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by noewun · 2006-09-28 07:21 · Score: 2, Funny

He's not going to benchmark filesystems (if he even knows what one is), he's not going to look into the granularity of file permissions, he's going to look at the surface and compare it to his favourite OS (which he most likely loves due to the "ohhs and ahhs" portions).

And 'cause he's a Windows user, so he's not going to include a review of the seven anti-virus and firewall programs he needs to patch the gaping security holes in the system. Nor will he mention the seven hours it took to get his digital camera to work, the three days he loses every month when WGA decides his machine isn't authorized any more, the install DVDs he keeps next to his machine for the monthly reinstalls, cause the best way to solve problems on a Windows box is to just reinstall the thing.
And he isn't a Linux user, so we don't have to hear him brag that he built a dual Opteron machine with a 2 TB RAID for only $6.50. Nor do we have to hear him tell us he can't believe anyone would ever pay for an operating system, even though he had to spend nine days crawling through endless Linux forums to find the obscure, cryptic shell command which will let his sound card work at full volume most of the time. And he will never brag that he feels sorry for people who are tied to programs like Office or Photoshop when there are open source programs out there which work almost almost as well for professional needs, such as making the posters of fat chicks in Sailor Moon outfits he prints out to cover the basement walls of his home.
And, yes, I know my generalizations are as stupid as yours. But my grammar's better.

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I am a believer of momentum and curves.
Re:Painfully Subjective Review by _Sprocket_ · 2006-09-28 09:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

The crux of the Apple marketing campaign right now is to accuse Microsoft of copying Apple's amazing "innovative" ideas that, on average, aren't really Apple's ideas.

As opposed to Microsoft's long-standing campaign of claiming everything it did as "innovative" despite various degrees of simularities to other-than-Microsoft examples.

Pot. Kettle. Black. Spiral spin.

Well... by e2ka · 2006-09-28 02:54 · Score: 4, Funny

What's that line about imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

I think it goes something like "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Re:Well... by Chacham · 2006-09-28 03:04 · Score: 5, Funny

I think it goes something like "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

I think it goes something like "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

--
Have you read my journal today?
Re:Well... by RorschachUK · 2006-09-28 03:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Here's a Google Video featuring audio from a Microsoft presentation of Vista's new features over video from OS X Tiger, showing that pretty much everything that was touted as new in Vista is already in Tiger. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-413444611 2378047444
Re:Well... by BrokenHalo · 2006-09-28 03:24 · Score: 2, Informative

..."Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"

Well, as far as I'm concerned, both UIs can just go suck my... whatever. I don't like either of them. Vista's UI is just more of the sameoldsameold slapped on top of an OS I prefer to shun, and Aqua (as distinct from OS X, which seems pretty good at its job) is an irritating pain to use.

Although I do own a (now aged but nonetheless functional) iBook G4 in addition to my desktop and server machines, I prefer to run Linux on it with Gnome as my UI of choice. Part of the reason for this choice is simply that I often prefer to work in maximised windows, and the Aqua UI, as far as I have been able to tell, only offers the option with a trackpad click on the appropriate widget rather than offering a hotkey or default action for the purpose. I know that might seem petty, but it's little irritations like this that make a difference for a lot of people. I am aware that Apple might have philosophical reasons for telling people to think the way they do, but I've spent too long operating with interfaces that are more customisable to fit comfortably into their little box.
Re:Well... by StarfishOne · 2006-09-28 04:01 · Score: 4, Funny

and I believe it ends with ", but originality wins the day" ;)

Missing out on the real features... by cybrthng · 2006-09-28 02:55 · Score: 5, Informative

I'm not going to copy and paste them here, but check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windo ws_Vista for all of the features & enhancements that really make vista what it is.

The new gui is just a fraction of what Vista offers and i'm amazed at home many people praise it or deteste it based on that single aspect alone.

UAC annoying? Not really, it finally juts alerts you to a change that affects your system as a whole. UAC used to be MUCH more annoying on previous betas but really is a non issue for most people on 5728 or higher because once your running there really isn't much you need to change and being alerted to changes that can impact your system is a good thing.

It takes 2 seconds to disable it if you don't like it. Windows R, msconfig, disable UAC, reboot.

Re:Missing out on the real features... by cybrthng · 2006-09-28 03:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

huh?

The home directory structre has existed in OS's long before OS X even existed. Not sure about the rest of your points as they seem really, really, really miniscule to base your entire OS views on. If you want to really see vista shine quite using the old stuff and try the new stuff. Computer Management - right click on Computer, Click Manage and give that a shot.

There are some new tools in seperate betas that really simplify management even more than what this does but i'm not sure if they will be in vista or a related download afterwards or part of the longhorn server release.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · 2006-09-28 03:10 · Score: 2, Funny

Where are the SCO lawyers alleging source code theft? This is prooooooooof

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sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
Re:Missing out on the real features... by oc255 · 2006-09-28 03:18 · Score: 5, Informative

Yes, home directories have been around for a long time. They moved C:\Documents and Settings\username to C:\Users\username which is the exact path of OSX if you switched it to a UNIX path.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by fomhoire69 · 2006-09-28 03:21 · Score: 4, Funny

Solitaire has been updated and rewritten to take advantage of Windows Vista's new graphics capabilities well thts sold me.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by Tim+C · 2006-09-28 03:29 · Score: 3, Insightful

I think quite a lot of people moaned about "Documents and Settings" because

a) it's quite a lot to type
b) it contains those embedded spaces that can be troublesome for the CLI and some older apps

Given that they wanted to change it, what else would you call it? And at the end of the day, does it matter that it's the same on OS X?

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It's official. Most of you are morons.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by LoudMusic · 2006-09-28 03:31 · Score: 2, Funny

It takes 2 seconds to disable it if you don't like it. Windows R, msconfig, disable UAC, reboot.

You said enough at "Windows are a misconfiguration". ;)

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No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Re:Missing out on the real features... by artemis67 · 2006-09-28 03:44 · Score: 5, Informative

You do realize that Konfabulator (which started out on the Mac OS) was nothing more than a return to Apple's Desktop Accessories, which premiered in Mac System 1.0, but Apple started to drift away from with the introduction of System 7? By Mac OS 9, DA's were pretty much dead, and with the introduction of OS X, gone altogether. Konfabulator may have had a lot of influence on the way Apple implemented Widgets, but technically Apple is only returning to a concept that they pioneered in 1984.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by whathappenedtomonday · 2006-09-28 04:27 · Score: 4, Funny

reboot.

Good thing that this particular feature remains unchanged.

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I hope I didn't brain my damage.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by Yaztromo · 2006-09-28 05:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

Given that they wanted to change it, what else would you call it? And at the end of the day, does it matter that it's the same on OS X?

I'd argue that yes -- yes it does. But perhaps not for quite the reasons some might expect.
Microsoft has long been about doing things ever so slightly differently in order to maintain a firm grip on platform lock-in as much as possible. They have done a lot of work over the years to try to mould user expectations in order to make it harder for them to move from Widows to another platform. And for many, many users, where to find their files and how to organize them is a HUGE part of this lock-in.
This seems to be falling to the wayside somewhat with Vista, however, and IMO that's a good thing for users (and for the record, I haven't used Vista at all, and am not a Windows user at all, so I'm going on what I've heard both here on /. and elsewhere). If Microsoft aligns Vista closer and closer to the way OS X does things, it will make it easier for Windows users to make the jump from one platform to another (from a usability standpoint). Someone trained on one system can use the other.
I wonder how long it will take before a user-friendly Linux distro decides to switch from "/home" to "/Users" to align with OS X and Vista (although obviously the entire "/Users" tree is a direct derivative of the way Unix and Linux have been doing things for ages, for many people naming consistency is very important. Far too many people out there don't have the memory capacity for naming that most of us in the industry have).
Yaz.
Re:Missing out on the real features... by I'm+Don+Giovanni · 2006-09-28 05:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

I wouldn't say that widgets are an intentional return to Desktop Accessories.
Desktop Accessories were a hack to get around that fact that pre-System 7, Mac OS was a single-tasking system. With OS 7, Mac OS because a true multi-tasking system (albeit, cooperatively), so they could do away with Desktop Accessories.

That being said, DOS had TSRs (terminate and stay resident) programs that acted like accessories. One could argue that Desktop Accessories were merely the GUI version of TSRs (I don't know which came first).

Anyway, Deskop Accessories and TSRs are so long ago, that who cares? In the modern era, Startdock and Konfabulator had desktop widgets long before Apple did. Hell, Win9x had them with Active desktop (dynamic HTML gadgets that ran on the desktop; there was a pretty popular one that provided realtime news, weather, and stock quotes, but I forget the name of it).

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-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000

Old Arguments. by jellomizer · 2006-09-28 02:57 · Score: 5, Insightful

Well that is the typical Windows vs. Mac Debate. Apple OS method is do what you need to do, and let the OS Do What it needs to do, and try not to step on each others foot. Windows is a working Microsoft Commercial for every feature that help you save time or protect you from trouble it is like Windows says "See Microsoft cares about you because we just protected you", While Mac OS X is more like go do what you need to do we will keep out of it and protect you when you need it, and we will only talk to you when we really have to. Even the Eye Candy. OS X eye candy is subtile while Windows is flashy. It is like a a man in a nice suit vs. a Pimp.

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If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.

Vista by cybrthng · 2006-09-28 03:01 · Score: 4, Informative

Runs on my XP 1700 as a "headless" media center server powering two xbox 360 and handling file share and windows media share for over 10,000 photos and about 7,000 songs. This machine has 1 gig of ram, several 250 gig hard drives and handles recordings with a single tuner at this point in time. Working on a second tuner that will run FireSTB to handle pulling hi-def from my comcast box.

I only have a geforce 4 mx 440 on thre so my score is 1.0 but everything that ran in XP is useable and same performance in vista.. i can swap out video cards and make the desktop fully useable with aero but i like it powering my extenders. Biggest thing i did was optimize the system for services, enable a large cache and dump my recordings on a different drive then what most of my pre-recorded stuff is and have a seperate boot drive as IO is where most of my latency is.

I will be throwing in an XP 2600 becuase i got one off ebay dirt cheap, but there you go. Vista works and it doesn't need a super system like you fellas seem to believe. Beta testers have it working on much lower end systems as well - just add memory.

Re:Vista by ozmanjusri · 2006-09-28 03:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Vista works and it doesn't need a super system like you fellas seem to believe.
Well, that's just wonderful for you. I'm very glad you've found satisfaction with Vista, and unsubstantiated anecdotes are always so valuable in helping us assess new products.
Umm, just one question, wtf did all this have to do with TFA?

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"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Re:Vista by cybrthng · 2006-09-28 03:57 · Score: 2, Informative

The 360s act as a media extender which allows me to use "Extend" media center in my bedroom and living room to use the functionality of the windows media center computer. IE, it allows me to watch/record/pause/rewind live tv, watch recorded shows, listen to mp3s, get weather, show caller id while watching tv, play slideshows, synchronize my usb cards, watch HD content.. (all with a remote control..)

Not only does it do the media center extender but when my wife is watching tv i can go into another room to watch what i want to watch or to play games.

You see to do all of the above on a computer you need a beefy computer.. a video card that can play HDTV as well as the 360 does would cost more than the 360 so i run that PC "headless" (i just remote desktop to manage it) and use it over the network or through the 360s'.

The windows media share exports my mp3 and image collection to WMP hosts that can connect in as well so you get the full library support through the network as well.. nice for my home office.
Re:Vista by Doctor+Memory · 2006-09-28 04:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're running beta software as your primary OS!
Chill, dude, he's running it on a media server. If it freaks out and melts down, what's the worst? He'll miss an expisode of Lost or something. It's not like he's hosting client apps or anything.

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Just junk food for thought...
Re:Vista by Achromatic1978 · 2006-09-28 11:53 · Score: 2, Funny

I found it amusing that he has multiple XBox 360s, huge music collections, multiple HDTV displays, and yet to run it all he's scrounged together an XP 1700+... :)

Flip3D is aesthetic? by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2006-09-28 03:01 · Score: 5, Interesting

I'm more enamored of Vista's Flip 3D feature, which basically takes all of the open windows on your desktop, stands them up on end and stacks them in a way that you can cycle through to the one you want to use. It's similar to what Apple's Expose does... Vista's method wins on aesthetics.

Ken, are you freaking kidding? Expose simply looks and behaves so much more efficiently and aesthetically. Try Flip3D when you have 20 windows open, and you'll get an obscured stack of windows that you have to travel through one by one, including the desktop (weirdly, Flip3D puts the desktop in there as a window too). In addition, there's no need to "cycle" through the windows in Expose, because it displays all windows at once. Flip3D is essentially a completely useless tech demo that's not that impressive. Flip3D doesn't win on anything.

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"Sufferin' succotash."

Re:Flip3D is aesthetic? by ZachPruckowski · 2006-09-28 03:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

Expose simply looks and behaves so much more efficiently and aesthetically. Try Flip3D when you have 20 windows open, and you'll get an obscured stack of windows that you have to travel through one by one, including the desktop (weirdly, Flip3D puts the desktop in there as a window too). In addition, there's no need to "cycle" through the windows in Exposé, because it displays all windows at once.

Very true. With a button press (or mouse squeeze on my desktop), I can see all the windows at once. So I'm a button press and a click (or a squeeze and a click) away from anything. However, with Flip3D, I'm a button press, a bunch of scrolling, and a click away from anything.
Also, Exposé is also useful if I need to see both windows at once, like if I'm typing something based on something I'm reading (summarizing news articles in my case) or if I need to compare 2 or more images for some reason.
Also, Exposé runs fine on a 1.33 GHz G4 with 32 MB VRAM (although most OS X eye candy like 64 MB VRAM), while Flip 3D will require 64MB or, more likely, 128MB VRAM.

Aqua, Aero, Terra, Pyro? by xxxJonBoyxxx · 2006-09-28 03:02 · Score: 2, Funny

Apple's UI is called Aqua. Microsoft calls its interface Aero.

OK, I'll bite. Where are the "Terra" and "Pyro" UIs?

Re:Aqua, Aero, Terra, Pyro? by talornin · 2006-09-28 03:33 · Score: 5, Informative

That would be "Ignis" UI. Pyro is Greek, Aqua, Terra and Aearo is Latin, thus Ignis is more apropriate ^_^

--
When in danger, whewn in doubt! Run in circles, scream and shout!
Re:Aqua, Aero, Terra, Pyro? by aug24 · 2006-09-28 03:45 · Score: 2

Well, pyro comes on laptops with Sony batteries, and 'Terra' is being made to work on O/S2.

Ubuntu will probably ship a GUI called 'Quintessence' as soon as they catch on.

J.

--
You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.

SUSE does it better by Alphax.au · 2006-09-28 03:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

An article written in May suggested that OpenSUSE 10.1 combined with Xgl will perform better with lesser hardware requirements and wins on several other fronts too. Plus, you can probably run it on your MacBook.

The problem is... by Spaceman40 · 2006-09-28 03:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

...that the major differences between XP and Vista are graphical. On my computer, I can't tell the difference in speed between XP (SP2) and Vista, but Vista sure looks prettier.

(Note: I only had it on my computer for about a day before switching to Ubuntu, which can actually use my sound card. Vista doesn't let you use any unsigned drivers, and Creative's 64-bit Vista drivers are beta and -- guess what? -- not yet signed.)

--
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Re:The problem is... by Spaceman40 · 2006-09-28 04:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

Have you used it? In comparison to OSX (and random distros of Linux, including Gentoo and Ubuntu) -- which is what the article was focusing on -- non-UI improvements merely brought the OS a little closer to the *nix variants.

I've seen the new control panel. I've heard about the code base. I've got a friend working at Microsoft who tells me about the stability, etc. You drop the average business user (my mom, for example) into Vista for a week and ask what's different, and they'll tell you about the UI.

But you're right, there are major differences underneath. I was comparing the final product to the other OSs I regularly use, and I just don't see it being something that'll be worth upwards of $75 to switch to.

--
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

UI ain't everything by Programmer_In_Traini · 2006-09-28 03:09 · Score: 2, Interesting

"I'm more enamored of Vista's Flip 3D feature, which basically takes all of the open windows on your desktop, stands them up on end and stacks them in a way that you can cycle through to the one you want to use. " ...geez, then we wonder why we gotta have a top-of-the-line PC with 1G of ram....just to run the OS smoothly. What happened to my good ole alt-tab and shift-alt-tab ? I dont recall having any kind of problem with that.

--
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen

Re:Flip is a matter of opinion by Tom · 2006-09-28 03:12 · Score: 5, Funny

Yes I know that the glass color can be changed, but no matter what it is still dark and depressing.

It's just there to get you in the mood. You know, if you're already depressed, then the first crash or 0day won't hurt so much. :-)

--
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org

Re:Despite the proof... by Tom · 2006-09-28 03:16 · Score: 2, Interesting

Not so sure on this. I've finally done the switch (though from Linux, not windos) with the new MacBook Pro. Intel was a reason, because I still keep a windos partition for Games until the Wii launches. I might not have switched if Mac had stayed with PPC.

Here's how I see it: Let people buy the new Macs because they can run Windos. Once they've seen the two in a direct comparison (running on the same machine), they'll appreciate OSX. Then they'll love it. Then they'll start to worship it. Then they'll wipe the windos partition in a night of frenzy and drunken fanatism just before they realize that they should've petitioned the makers of their favourite software before doing that...

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Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org

Re:Despite the proof... by 0racle · 2006-09-28 03:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

I guess you don't run applications on your systems, just OS's.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."

End the madness! by dave420 · 2006-09-28 03:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

Everyone seems to be seeing how OSs fare compared to each other, giving bragging rights to whichever one was the first to use various features, when that doesn't even matter in the slightest. An OS is to be used - it's not your child, you don't have to stand up for it. If it does what you need it to do, then it's great. I don't give a rat's ass who invented "windows flying around revealing themselves" first, I just care if it's of any use to me. It's an operating system, not a political statement. Fucking fanboys.

Security nags by dtfinch · 2006-09-28 03:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

The more you tighten your grip, the more star^H^H^H^Husers will log in as administrator.

Double plagarism doesnt count by Lanoitarus · 2006-09-28 03:29 · Score: 2, Insightful

Sure, gadgets are blatant knockoffs. But they arent blatant knockoffs of OS X widgets. Theyre blatant knockoffs of Konfabulator (Now Yahoo Widgets), which is what Apple knocked off too.

Apple fanbois dont get to complain about this one.
All MS did was copy Apples copying. Now admittedly, there are plenty of legitimant copyjobs going back and forth between both companies, but this isnt one of them.

=)

Re:Double plagarism doesnt count by Anonymous Coward · 2006-09-28 03:50 · Score: 2, Informative

*sigh*

I guess you've never heard of Desk Accessories, have you?

Hint, they were included with the very first Macintosh.

But, Gruber says it best:

"Bullshit. Dashboard is not a rip-off of Konfabulator. Yes, they are doing very much the same thing. But what it is that they're doing was not an original idea to Konfabulator. The scope of a "widget" is very much the modern-day equivalent of a desk accessory."
Re:Double plagarism doesnt count by mypalmike · 2006-09-28 05:16 · Score: 2, Informative

I guess you've never heard of Desk Accessories, have you?

Desk accessories were a hack to workaround the lack of multitasking in early versions of Mac OS. See MultiFinder.

Apple Widgets are a knockoff of Konfabulator because Apple borrowed the idea of writing little desktop applications in Javascript.

--
There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.

So Vista can look and act like OsX... by Thansal · 2006-09-28 03:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

... But can it look and act like Win2K?

I am a windows user (yes, I know I will be shuned for addmitting this), and my preffered OS is Win2K (it works for what I want it to, and that is primarily games).

Up untill recently I just ignore anytihng about windows that is not Win2K (I admit I have to use XP at work, but I have done everytihng I can to make it look and act like 2K). However, with more and more mention of games that will be "vista exclusives" I am starting to wory that I will eventualy actualy HAVE to switch (I stuck with DOS untill I had to use windows for games, then with 3.11 till I had to "upgrade" to 95 for games).

So for those that have been ussing Vista, Can you strip out all this silly extra garbage and make Vista look and act like 2K?
Can I make all the gadgets/widgets/whatever they are called quickly disapear and not waste CPU cycles?
Can I turn off all the bubbles and colouring and effects?
Can I make everything flat? (I like sharp edges, one of my largest dislikes about OSX/XP/others is this urge to make defaults rounded and pretty looking)
Can I make the colour scheames nice and simple? (a solid blue title bar?)

yup ,set in my ways, and loving it.

(btw, a quick link to all this info that I have probably missed would be highely apreciated).

--
Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.

Gadgets and Widgets huh? by celerityfm · 2006-09-28 03:35 · Score: 2

Yeah. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery huh? So Microsoft really likes Arlo Rose and Perry Clarke? Lest we forget that the Apple Widget Dashboard is a "total rip-off" of Konfabulator. Though there are dissenting views on this.

I used to feel bad for the Konfabulator team until they were bought by Yahoo- they finally got the attention they deserved.

--
...unfortunately no one can be told what The Mat^H^H^HGoatse is...they must experience it for themselves...

reboot? by codethreader · 2006-09-28 03:38 · Score: 2, Insightful

It takes 2 seconds to disable it if you don't like it. Windows R, msconfig, disable UAC, reboot.

It reboots in 2 seconds? Amazing. It'd be even faster if Microsoft could figure out how to make an OS that allows you to modify a configuration without requiring a reboot. Everyone else seems to have figured it out.

Newb by adavies42 · 2006-09-28 03:50 · Score: 2, Informative

Mac OS X users can now use the apple-tab key combo to move through open applications just as quickly as Windows users.

Whaddaya mean, "now"? To quote someone's sig, if I yell "Frog blast the vent core!", is Ken going to duck and cover, or will it be a whole cow-oncoming train thing? I'm strongly betting on the latter. We've had command- (and yes, it's "command", dammit, not "apple") tab since, what, System 8? The people who pass for Mac fans these days....

--
Media that can be recorded and distributed can be recorded and distributed.
-kfg

Productivity nitwit by CODiNE · 2006-09-28 04:01 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm more enamored of Vista's Flip 3D feature, which basically takes all of the open windows on your desktop, stands them up on end and stacks them in a way that you can cycle through to the one you want to use. It's similar to what Apple's Expose does. In Mac OS X, all of the open windows are arranged in a two-dimensional way that makes it easy to see what's in each one. But it's not as visually appealing.

Both do pretty much the same thing; Vista's method wins on aesthetics.

It may win on aesthetics, but that's ALL it wins on. Okay quick example here... this is early in the morning and I've barely begun to work at ALL, but I've already got Mail open, one email being written, 1 finder window, iTunes and 8 movies open in QT. (Gotta check last night's compressions in the morning) So that's 12 windows open here... not really that much but, let's say I want to go right back to the email. I can either Apple-Tab (4 times in this case) or I can hit F9 for all window Expose and them simply click it.

Now compare that to Flip 3D. I'm gonna flip through my ROLODEX? From all the videos I saw it appeared each window shows up separately(Thanks you spell check) so I would actually have to hit the flip key 12 times here? How is that better? It's not. Expose is O(1), Flip 3D is O(N). They definitely do NOT do the same thing, one shows you all your windows, the other buries them.

Here's how I think it went down. Rumors have been around for years about Apple's "Piles" and how they were going to be the next generation file system interface. Microsoft thinks they know what Apple's next big secret is, so they try to get a jump on them and release it first. Whoops... fooled you, "Piles" are actually part of "Stacks" and the light table mode in Aperture... now THAT is useful! (Check out Compare and Select videos 2 and 4 here.) Good thing they got rid of that stupid code name "Piles" :-)

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Cwm, fjord-bank glyphs vext quiz

Re:Despite the proof... by Apocalypse111 · 2006-09-28 04:01 · Score: 5, Funny

PC: Hi, I'm a PC.
Mac: Hi, I'm a Mac. Hey, what do you have there?
PC: Oh, just some games.
Mac: Oh neat. Can I play too?
PC: No.

--
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.

"doesn't need a super system"... Oh, the irony... by Dr.+Zowie · 2006-09-28 04:24 · Score: 3, Insightful

...XP 1700...1 gig of ram, several 250 gig hard drives ... I will be throwing in an XP 2600 ...

How zippy is your machine? An XP 1700 wita a gigabyte of RAM is capable of simulating regional weather patterns in real time, or of calculating about 10,000 lunar orbital injection trajectories per second, or of playing 100 competition chess games simultaneously, or of analysing and controlling traffic patterns in a mid-sized city core.

So, er, your 1700 *is* a super system. With that much horsepower at your disposal, you shouldn't have to wait more than 0.1 second to start up your favorite application. If you notice *any* lag before any dialog box comes up, you should be questioning why.

Re: A Mac Fan's Take On Vista.. by King_TJ · 2006-09-28 04:44 · Score: 2, Insightful

Who said this was supposed to be an unbiased review?? This is intended to compare and contrast Vista with OS X, and enlighten some of the non-Mac using computer users out there that some of Microsoft's "new features" aren't really so "new" to everybody.

In that respect, I agree completely with him.

Frankly, his review interested me more than the plethora of soon-to-come, objective reviews filled with benchmarks will.

I already own and use a Macbook Pro, and I was thinking about setting it up to dual-boot into Vista. (I have XP set up to boot via Bootcamp on it now, and that works quite well.) After reading about his power-management issues and problems with right-click support, I think I'll stick with XP on it for now, instead.

Re:It's the GUI that will sell 80%... by Mistshadow2k4 · 2006-09-28 05:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

The average Windows user isn't caring about or using what XP TRULY does different than 98SE except it looks better.

That's not true. What I heard more than anything else from the people using XP when it was new was that it wasn't crashing all the time and didn't need rebooting so often. (Of course, all that is true of 2000 as well, but these people were upgrading from 98.) Looks came in about third; stability was what experienced Windows people talked about the most. Believe me, I remember it well, as I was considering upgrading from 98 then myself as I was sick of its instability and everyone encouraged me to, but then I upgraded to 2000 -- after which, my response was, meh, cutesy interface, so what.

Nevertheless, we wound up getting XP early this year because there are a few high-powered games that require XP that my husband just had to have *rolleyes*. (I mainly use the computer for graphics & picture editing; imagine my surprise when I found that some of my favorite apps work better with 2000 than XP, even though those apps came out after XP!) But that brings up another point in the anti-Vista argument -- look how long it was after XP came out that there were XP-only games from game companies besides MS itself. People say only Vista will have DX10, but any game company would have to be out of their minds to trade the XP user base for the new Vista user base. And frankly, posts you see on every forum show how little interest there is in Vista; it's not just /., it's everywhere. Vista just doesn't offer enough compelling features to make XP users want to upgrade. Of course, new pre-made computers will come with Vista, but more people already have computers than in the XP days, so widespread adoption of Vista is definitely going to be slower than it was for XP.

--
I dream of a better world... one in which chickens can cross roads without their motives being questioned.

Yawn - Another Mac fanboy claiming Apple invented by I'm+Don+Giovanni · 2006-09-28 05:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

This would've been an interesting article is this guy didn't spend so much of it whining about Microsoft supposedly copying Apple (taking a cue from Steve Jobs' pathetic performance at the recent WWDC, where he spent a full 10 minutes whining about MS copying Apple, and continued the idiotic snide remarks throughout his "keynote", then proceeded to demo features that were ripped off from others, including Microsoft, without even blushing).

And the "evidence" cited to prove that MS copied Apple is so minor and trivial. I mean things like "Apple's UI is called Aqua. Microsoft calls its interface Aero. Hmmmm." What, does Apple have a trademark on four letter words beginning with 'A' now? And it's not like the user gives a damn what the UI is called anyway. The other things this guy cites are that close/resize buttons glow when the mouse hovers over them and Aero has photorealistic icons that scale nicely, etc. Oh really? Well, whoop-de-doo!! I guess any OS that incorporates good looking icons is stepping on Apple's toes, right? *yawn*

And what's all this talk that Aero copies from Aqua anyway? I've been using OSX since 10.0, and I've seen Aero. Regardless of whetehr a few things are similar, the overall look and feel are not alike at all.

And this is where this guy's arrogance really kicks in:

Note to Microsoft GUI gurus: Take a look at the latest version of Apple's iTunes software, the recently released Version 7. Gloss and shine are out, the 3-D sandblasted look is in.

Huh? Why, just because and Jobs says so? Give me a break.

--
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000

Finding the "best" is subjective, too. by Kadin2048 · 2006-09-28 07:00 · Score: 2, Insightful

Painfully Subjective Review
I'll just out and say it -- Ken Mingis is just looking for bells & whistles. He's not in search of the 'best' operating system,

You are correct, however the implication that looking for the "best" OS would have been less subjective is laughable. Any search for the "best" operating system is inherently subjective, because "best" is a totally subjective criteria.

Any time I see a review where someone is looking for the 'best' anything, where two solutions exist, is not going to be objective. If it was objective, then it would need to explain why both things exist -- which implies that there are people who find both of them to be the best, respectively (otherwise why would they be using it?).

Frankly, I didn't find his review objective, but I'll take blatant over veiled subjectivity any day. It's not like he tried to hide where he was coming from, or give it much of a journalistic, authoritative overtone; he just stated his opinion.

As someone with a similar background to the reviewer, his statements were valuable to me. Sometimes, a variety of biased but straightforward reviews can be far more elucidating than a probably-biased but totally opaque one. At least with something like this, I can say "okay, so he's coming to this from the perspective of a Mac user, meaning he probably thinks the way OS X works is generally OK..." etc.

--
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."

"Vista's method wins" Oh yeah, that's bias. by objekt · 2006-09-28 07:07 · Score: 3, Funny

Stupid Mac fanboys always saying Vista is better!

--
-- Boycott Shell

fuddoesnotmeanwhatyouthink (on fud/notfud) by Kristoffer+Lunden · 2006-09-28 07:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

We all need to start tagging the stories with "fuddoesnotmeanwhatyouthink" because I only ever see it used as "I like/don't like issue X" now. It means Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, and is very specific as a tactic to spread scary misinformation folks. It's not meant as a label for anything, *anything* that you disagree with.

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Spine World

Re:Mod parent through the roof! by MrBoombasticfantasti · 2006-09-29 05:34 · Score: 2, Interesting

Don't get your panties in a bunch. Parent made it very clear that current hardware (or even slightly older hardware) is actually unbelievably fast. It should be able to run almost anything you care to use instantly. Yet, for some reason, perceived speed (or responsiveness) hasn't improved in the last, say, 20 years.

Why is this? Because software is bloated and layered beyond reason.

To re-iterate the point I tried to make: current hardware is blistering fast, it's the software that's crap.

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!ERR: Signature not found.

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