Slashdot Mirror
Chinese Ban Internet Rumors
dptalia writes "Chongqing province in southwest China has just passed a law fining people who post malicious rumors online. An individual can face fines of 1,000 to 5,000 yuan ($630) and an organization can be fined between 3,000 and 15,000 yuan."
Nothing for you to see here. Move along.
Duke Nukem Forever is going gold next week.
Oops, that one is going to cost me a lot of yuan.
Damn. I was hoping this could herald an end to bogus virus alerts and urban legends.
Are we sure this isn't just a rumor???
Great Intellect...
...how do you do decide what is (or isn't) a malicious rumor? I'm sure the Chinese government knows very well.
FUD, Trolling, Flames, Flame-Wars, dupe-posts, Bad Wiki repotage, and general spamming?
I think we're going to need a rate card for all this...
Oh the other hand, if more governments took up the cause, think of the revenue! The US could pay off it's national debt in 48 hours.
Coooool.
Ok gents, so what rumour are we starting this week?
* China Buys, Loots Taiwan in Second Life
* Wen Jiabao is also my father
* Tangshan is bigger than Tianjin... at heart
* Norman Bethune was gay
* Shijiazhuang: the next Hong Kong
They would be branded at evil dictators for telling their citizens what to do,say,see and read. Maybe someone should sprinkle the magic democracy fairy dust in their eyes. -1 flamebait. :(
The legislation also includes fines of 3,000 to 15,000 yuan for "organizations distributing defamatory material", the paper said.
Sooooo, does this mean they are going to fine the republican party every time they make a new advertisement?
Chinese whispers
A good friend of mine who use to be a journalist in China talked about a few months about how the freedom of speech isn't as abridged as we'd like to think of it in the west. He had mentioned the biggest part was that you can't talk about people from a perspective that can ruin their reputation because it is a big part of their culture (as it is in many parts of Asia).
Most of the time, this rule is the one invoked when censoring something...talk bad about the gov't, you are implicitly impugning someone. Its horribly implemented with no safe guards (especially since employers can be fined and employees can be jailed), but I can see why the sentiment is good.
I've had my name slandered several times in the past over the internet. I don't know why the slashdot crowd gets up in arms when someone patents something by appending On The Internet, but if you state this in terms of other non-rights they get upset. I'm not stealing if I'm Stealing On The Internet. It isn't slander if I lie about someone and defame their family ON THE INTERNET.
Most of the time, if speech like I've had to endure were put up in a newspaper, my rivals would have lost a house over libel. If they would have done it at a public gathering, it would have been slander. (and if they merely mention it to a neighbor, well, thats an out and out lie that I can handle on my own). People don't see the value of reputation anymore in the west. People are too selfcentered and care nothing about anyone else -- until it happens to them (for my part, I've never said anything online or in public that wasn't backed up by non-ambigious documentation and even then, I've tried to talk to the other party personally before I have done so).
So I'm all for China stringing up anyone that ruins someone elses reputation through rumor. The US just passed the 300 Million mark this weekend. China has 1.5 Billion. Personally, I think we have enough idiots on this planet and wouldn't shed a tear about the few that want to throw unsubstantiated lies about others online. Have solid backing evidence...I'm all for it...Publish what you got. Pure out and out rumor...you need to leave.
this article is a malicious rumour and you have been fined accordingly. Please pay 15,000 yuan.
Summation 2
OK. And in the US, you can sue someone into the ground for posting malicious rumors against you.
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
We could out-source their rumor making, off shore it for them. I could make online rumors for the average mainland chinese for a fraction of the cost. They would be good rumors too, the kind you'd never get it you off-shored to India or Malaysia, quality rumors like "Low Ping has small nuts", or "Mai Ass is huge".
Task Mangler
I hear there's rumours on the Internets...
Sent from my iPhone
Chinese bans the internet
The Chinese government is disappearing the homeless and polical dissidents, and in a rather mysterious coincidence, is now providing more citizens than ever with government subsidized meat.
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
This is the country that calls anything that it doesn't like a state secret. You can get the death penalty for leaking a state secret. For example: http://www.amnesty.org.uk/actions_details.asp?Acti onID=157 They really don't like it if you complain about things like police brutality. That makes you a terrorist. Police brutality is a state secret after all.
So this new law will get you fined if you point out that a corrupt official who is supposed to only earn the equivalent of $10,000 is driving a new Mercedes.
I titled my post "This is China". I am by no means implying that they are the only bad guys on the block. At least one other country has recently passed a law that removes people's right to due process and virtually legalizes torture.
For China, this is especially worrisome, because not only is the social order hurt, but the government as well. They're mostly worried that a particularly outrageous false rumor might force the government to change in some way. Note that this was done by a single provincial government - the lower ranks of government are particularly threatened. The Chinese government isn't a single monolith - the different ranks of government can be quite independent of each other. This article should have been titled "Chongqingnese ban internet rumors". But, after living in China for a while, I no longer expect the news that I read to be accurate in any way, nor do I expect that people who give me the news to care that they are not accurate.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
No rumors? 1 billion blogs fall silent. Is it okay if they just copy American rumors and circulate those?
RichM
Data Center Knowledge
I'm too lazy to look it up, but some months ago Slashdot had a story about how an internet rumor in China just about destroyed the lives of 2 people. An angry husband posted that his wife was having an affair with another man he had a grudge against. None of it was true, but the good Chinese netizens who read it didn't bother to question it. After all, if someone said it on the internet, it must be true! They found out where the man and woman worked who were accused of having an affair and people showed up to harass them for an affair that they weren't even having. The husband eventually admitted it was all a lie, but only after a lot of harassment was done towards his wife and the other guy. Similar stories have been reported in other Asian countries where angry netizens decided to start harassing people over articles they read about online that they had no way of knowing whether or not they were even true.
I don't know why so many people believe everything they read online. It's not just in Asia. Some years ago I worked as a civilian computer programmer for the US Air Force. Roughly around 1995 or so, at my former base basically everyone got an internet connection on their PC and they believed every rumor that came out. If someone said it in email, it must be true because nobody would ever lie in email, right? One of my former co-workers used to send me copies of emails he got where I would see over 100 people on the CC: line about some wild rumor or another that they were aboslutely convinced was true. My favorite was the story about some guy waking up in a bathtub full of ice minus his kidneys. All of these emails would say to send the message to everyone you knew to warn them about whatever the rumor was. After a year or so, it got so out of hand that senior management basically had to pass an edict forbidding people from sending this stuff out to massive distribution lists on the base and they finally got it under control. Even today, my retired uncle believes every single negative rumor he reads. I used to reply to his emails and send him links to snopes.com refuting his emails, but I just gave up when he told me that it wasn't his job to verify the truth of what he passed on. He was just passing on potentially "helpful" information and it was up to recipient to determine if there was anything to it or not.
...MySpace reported a massive fall in traffic from Chinese ISP's......
does anyone else find it funny that a nation who's name is synonymous with evoking the thought of rumors is trying to stop them?
-Sj53
Bush suspends Habeas corpus. Coming to your area: gulag!
"John Spartan, you are fined one credit for a violation of the verbal morality statute."
No. the chinese have better english than taco
If it would keep down the number of e-mails starting with "FWD:fwd:FWD:fwd:fwd:FWD: I normally don't send this, but, this has to be true!" that find themselves into my inbox, I just might support this in the U.S.!
*I kid, I kid...*
Because the Communist Party never has to worry about winning elections.
There goes Digg China then...
In Soviet Russia, rumors ban you!
I first read it as: (Chinese Ban Internet) Rumors
but when I RTFM I see it is actually: Chinese Ban (Internet Rumors)
Why is this flamebait? I don't want to hijack this story, but I think that we should first look to our own government before starting to criticize others'. We have an election coming up where 80% of all votes will be cast on electronic voting machines operated by a private company. I shouldn't need to mention what kind of affiliation the owner has with the Bush Administration. We're being spied on, can be held indefinitely without a reason why or any contact with the outside world...I hope the people with their heads in the sand realize what is happening around them once they come up for air...
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
They said malicious rumours. Guess who gets to decide what's malicious?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
If a law allows the government to lock up people that "behave immorally", soon the government will stretch the meaning of the word 'immoral' from 'having sex on the streets' to 'showing a patch of skin'.
The real problem in fining people who make "defamatory comments or remarks, launch personal attacks or seek to damage reputations online" is that this is obviously also open to such a flexible interpretation (albeit a bit more subtle than the above example).
Subjective law allows for abuse and therefore always *will* cause abuse.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
If you take into account the cost of life in China and the average income, 5000 yuan is more like $6300 than $630. That is *a lot* o money.
Why exactly was this modded flamebait? Poster but makes several valid points about human rights in China and doesn't deserve to be modded down IMHO.
Maybe I'm missing something, but don't a lot of countries have libel / slander / defamation laws?
An internets free of women.
Not in China...
Maybe the news about the law itself is a rumour. So the Beijing Govt can go fine itself.
Chinese ban internet rumors. Americans ban internet gambling. What's next? Some fool nation will ban internet pornography? Oh, wait....
Are you...Are you some kind of genius?
No, ma'am, I'm just a regular Slashdot reader.
Me?
Theres information you want to be distribute, for the good of the whole society, that are distributed ONLY by rumors. A democracty may survive with rumorus banned, because there are lot of stuff that can be official. But a tirany like the china one, I think will absolutelly need rumors, because most rules are not writted.
-Woof woof woof!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Nice post- do you even remember what this story was even about after that pointless, offtopic rant? Or did the "bush" bulb go off in your head and send you into a blind frenzy? Seriously now, you're talking about voting fraud in the US in a story about China limiting internet rights. Clinton pissed on free speech by having the 9/11 docudrama censored, why not mention that instead?
Just because you preface something with "I don't want to hijack this story" doesnt mean you didnt want to hijack this story.
China, yep, still a communist dictatorship. This is news for geeks in the same sense that "Today, Microsoft and Bank of America made a lot of money, and many dragons were slain in WoW... ON THE INTERNET" is.
Help poke pirates in the eyepatch, arr.
I meant women talking, not pr0n. Don't get me wrong ok?
George Bush has just announced that a new law is in effect: Anyone caught talking about Lindsay Lohan's boobs will be fined one-million dollars US.
This isn't about slander and defamation laws that exist in the real world.
This is about provoking the slashdot, "free speech no restrictions", "can't contol us", "I hate China" crowds.
The real concern IMO isn't the theory of punishing liars, it's the massive potential for abuse.
This potential for abuse of restricting legitimate speech is the fundamental reason for promoting free speech.
I guess we'll find out if CmdrTaco or dptalia get fined...
Better adjust that tinfoil hat so that it can better hide you from the black helicopters ...
You heard from George Bush himself that there are rumors on the internets. China is just heeding his words and putting them into action.
mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
this is just terrible. 'orkut' is facting similar trouble in india.
China or the Bush administration's vision for America 2008? Today President Bush responded to this news, saying - "War! Terror! The American Way! Axis of Evil! Freedom! Democracy! Stay the Course! God Bless America!"
all your rumor belong to us ...
....rumours spreads you
Eclipse PDE and Me
Yeah, I can think about a lot of spams that are complete b.s., most especially the variants on "company X will pay $10,000 for every forwarded email to you (or some sick kid with 3 heads and 18 toes in Nigeria, etc)" or "the post office is going to levee a charge of $0.10/email on each message sent to cover decreasing postage usage"
Do those count as rumours, and would they be fineable? Unfortunately most of them I don't get from Chinese, but those that spread them need to be hit with a stupid-stick.
You shouldn't be flamebait. I find it shocking and appalling that this hasn't been on fark or /. before.
I describe it to my friends like this:
"Did you hear that the US officially disbanded?"
If you cannot ask "Hey, why am I in jail?", you have no freedoms. Every single right in your Bill of Rights was removed by removing HC. Anyone suspected of being a terrorist can be put in jail, indefinitely, with no legal councel. How is that part of a free country?
(HC has been on the books since the 1200s, and is part of the legal system of every country with a Common Law - basically every civilized nation in the world. Even IRAN has it (on paper). )
Oh, and if you haven't done anything wrong, remember that violations of the DMCA can be considered terrorist activities. Nice job hacking your Tivo, Gitmo Boy.
Without Habaeus Corpus, your country is fascist. End Of Story.
You might argue that it's a valuable tool to help eliminate terrorists. Yes, it is. So is just summary execution without trial. You could also murder their children and spouses. You could gun them down and seize their computers. These aren't tools that civilized countries use. That's the downside to our systems - sometimes you KNOW that an asshole has done something, but you can't prove it. You have to let him go. If you have to use torture, secret prisons, and indefinite incarceration, then give up - you've lost The War.
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
Not to feed the trolls, but criticizing Clinton for the same things Bush is doing is kind of ironic don't you think? Maybe we need more people pulling others' heads out of their collective parties' asses instead of (quite symbolically) being hypocrites.
"You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
Here's Princeton's Analysis of those voting machines.
Sleep tight.
http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting
---
ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
I bet they'll try and fine slashdot for posting this :-P but seriously, if they don't plan to fine foreigners then I doubt they'd be able to tell the difference between a chinese citizen using a proxy and a real foreigner as long as they don't use their real name. And if they do plan to fine foreigners, it's on now!
Is it just me or is it not going to upgrade to Vista in here?
It is a municipality that is at the same hierarchical level as a province.
Do not anger the worm.
I heard that Wang Yang, Communist Party of China Committee Secretary of Chongqing province, can't have an orgasm unless he kills a dog.
That's just what I heard.
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
If only /. was constructed with paradox-absorbing crumple zones!
In one sense this is good. Rumors can be a very bad thing in how they can destroy a person's life. However, what if the person is mentioning the rumor for discussion? The article mentions the language say "defamatory comments or remarks, launch personal attacks or seek to damage reputations online". It seems to be keeping it to personal levels. I hope that is the way it works out legally.
Have you read my journal today?
So this new law will get you fined if you point out that a corrupt official who is supposed to only earn the equivalent of $10,000 is driving a new Mercedes.
It's probably just a cheap knock-off made in China out of plastic.
way to stop people from making crap up.
best idea ever.
Exactly the line of reasoning I took. Depending on how it's written, and if enforced fairly, it's a great idea. We've gone way too far into the absurd end of freedom of speech. What the people who favor this fail to see is:
1) It really can screw people up.
2) There is almost a backlash that goes waaaay back the other direction.
And they'll both be your fault if you're one of the folk pushing for "anything goes".
You believe in anarchy of speech? Fine. Just remember, teh door swings both ways, and when it's going the other way, it packs one hell fo a wallop.
...Microsoft would have to re-think their whole marketing strategy.
...and I can tell you there's no such thing as Bar-tender rum hours around here...
>Most of the time, if speech like I've had to endure were put up in a newspaper, my rivals would have lost a house over libel.
Newspapers carry an impression of credibility from the fact that they're edited and are big established institutions. Posts on a message board are obviously a single person's output and most of us take them with grains of salt. If someone on Slashdot tells me that you did something bad, like starting a war of agression, I won't think less of you. If the Washington Post and LA Times say the same it will hurt your reputation more.
Libel laws are also designed to compensate for inequality of access. Centuries ago, if you picked a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, you'd be squashed like a bug. You didn't have access to the same channels being used to insult you. On a message board you reach exactly the same circulation as your critic/stalker/investigative reporter/whatever.
Not to mention that if a free country passed a law like that, then the meaning of "malicious rumor" would be "whatever a jury says it is, subject to instructions from the judge about previous case law". In non-free countries, that could change to "whatever the government says it is".
In China where the population is so great it threatens to flip Asia over, dumping it's contents into the Pacific, a rumor (based on solid evidence or not) can get a person killed. Now, barring that assumption, there's also the assumption that rumors make it difficult to keep things in an orderly state and with so many people, as we've seen, if an orderly state isn't kept people riot and eventually kill each other.. which does tend to bolster the previous assumption. On an individual level where stupid emotions are one's personal emperor this amounts to outright oppression... on the other hand, on the macrocosmic scale this is an effort to keep the stupid monkeys from screwing everyone else over.
Granted the powerful will use this to shield themselves from harassment and having to own-up for wrongdoings, but it will also shield many others from having to own-up for things they haven't done. One would hope...
I hear there aren't rumors on the Internets.
Posting malicious rumors is libel and can leave you in an actionable position, landing you in civil court if someone is mad enough at you and can figure out who you really are. I'm assuming the way this is handled in China is that it is more like a criminal offense (since the punishment can include detention). It's hard to compare since Chinese legal system is rather unique, sort of a combination of philosophy and Civil law.
But the point, before I got side tracked, is that having a monetary punishment for libel is pretty normal and accepted in the world. It's not like people are getting canned, although I'm not happy that there can be detention as punishment for this.
“Common sense is not so common.” — Voltaire
I wonder if the law includes 'rumours' like noticing that everyone in a certain neighbourhood has come down with a severe fever and cough, and that it seems to be spreading wildly?
Apparently WHO has an entire office dedicated to monitoring these sorts of rumours, as the Chinese government is less than forthright.
"Malicious Rumors" is ChiCom speak for information that they don't want the outside world to know about, like the 10s of millions who died in famines in the '50s and '60s, and the present persecution of Christians and fulang gong. The term was used in a recent charge against some people who let the world outside know about the ChiComs destroying a church building, for instance.
This isn't about urban legends, but about totalitarianism.
Check this out:
2 66.htm
;-)
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1769
It's a story about how the Chinese police beat confessions out of the nearest, convenient innocent bystander. Won't let their family see them. Kill them without giving notice, either with a bullet to the back of the head or by lethal injection, so they resell their organs. China is the biggest organ resale market in the world; $100K will get you some poor bastards liver. Check the story; That's on the Australian Government's New Service (like the BBC). Mind you, the Australian Government has been sucking upto China big time lately. Money is money after all, and blood washes off all so easily.
One day, not too soon I hope, the Chinese people with rise up against their communist overseers and overthrow them in an orgy of blood and violence. What goes around, comes around baby.
Some come on you communist bastards. Come and get your 50 yuan fine. But first you'll have to speak to my lawyers, Smith & Wesson.
Nukes duke YOU!
For instance, a lot of Americans don't like the existence of laws about incitement to racial hatred in the UK. That wouldn't exempt you from obeying these laws while in this country, and this would apply equally to using a UK ISP while you were here.
On a more trivial note, I understand that you have an offence called "jaywalking" in the US that you can be fined for. I find this utterly absurd, but it doesn't mean I can ignore it while I am in the US.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Modern China is neither communist nor dictatorship. It's closer to fascist oligarchy. It's dramatically different than what it was 15 years ago. Economic freedoms have increased dramatically, but the civil rights conditions haven't improved much.
___
It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.