Slashdot Mirror
Germany's New Internet License Fee
PapayaSF writes "Beginning January 1st, Germany will require payment of a license fee of 5.52 euros a month on computers and mobile phones that can access TV and radio programs over the Internet. Like the current TV and radio license fees, the money will support national and local public TV and radio stations. German companies with many computers are predictably upset." I'm not sure if this is the same story we discussed in 2004. Did this original fee go through, and this is another fee on top of the original?
There are a few ways that a business computer could be made unable to receive TV or radio streams. Are these sufficient to avoid the tax? Enquiring minds want to know.
I wonder who is so stupid to pay for something they dont use? :)
sex is better than war!
Once they own you, they throw commercials at you. Don't ever pay for something when they show commercials.
Note: This is a flat fee. Every corporation has to pay it only once, regardless of the number of computers.
There's a similar update of the laws in Sweden. This may very well spread to a lot of countries.
Will the next big thing be an ISP which doesn't give access to the website's of the nations public TV and radio stations' websites?
Or will even The Pirate Bay and Google Video be recognized as sites where you can access TV and radio programs, thus making any such attempts from the ISPs worthless?
.. as in the story from 2004, they just reduced it a bit after a truckload of protests during the last 2 years.
Maybe a bit more background info from Germany here: this fee is used to support the state-owned radio and TV stations, the privately owned stations don't see a cent. This is supposedly to guarantee the higher-quality broadcasts from the state stations as opposed to the low-quality, market-driven programs from the private stations.. but as somebody who doesn't watch state TV as a principle, I won't pay this s**t.
Of the in Japan that nobody gives a flying fuck about. From this page: Q. Do I have to pay the NHK man? A. The NHK man is a representative of Japan's state-run television station who goes door to door trying to collect NHK fees, a bi-monthly tax of about 2000 yen that everyone who owns a colour television in Japan is required by law to pay. They are generally very aggressive and threatening, usually sticking their foot in the door so that you can't close it on them, and somehow giving you the impression that dire consequences will ensue if you do not pay promptly. The truth is that although there really is a law, a lot of people in Japan completely ignore it and you can too if you want to. Telling them that you do not watch Japanese TV is not an acceptable excuse, because the law says that everyone who owns a TV has to pay so the best way to get rid of them is to just refuse outright. They are not going to have you arrested and they cannot garnishee your wages so if you don't watch NHK, so you don't have to be intimidated by them. Nor do they have any right to enter your apartment, so if you tell them that you do not have a TV there is no way for them to charge you (be careful if you have a satellite dish though). I predict a similar fate for this one. These laws really are stupidly cussed laws, and everyone knows it. The only thing is that you can actually see if someone is using the internet really easily, unlike a simple TV picking up radio waves. By the way, if this whole NHK tax thing is a big rumour or it's long done with or something, please inform me :)
Like the current TV and radio license fees, the money will support national and local public TV and radio stations.
Shouldn't the money go to supporting internet related media, like podcasts? If I don't have a TV, why should I be forced to pay taxes that support it?
-Grey
Silver Clipboard: Time Management Tips
It is in fact the same story. In 2004 the introduction was first discussed, and now it's reality. It's a little more complicated than stated in the blurb though. If you are already paying the fee for a TV set, you have not to pay for the computer. But businesses normally don't operate a TV set, so they are now hit by the fee.
The fee is due not for watching TV, but for "having a TV set ready for reception of a TV signal". Because the public TV programming is available as an IP stream, every computer that could be hooked to the Internet is "being ready for reception". And don't try to argue that your computer is running Linux and thus not "ready". It is able to run an operating system that could display the TV stream, even though it is not running it right now.
In general you have to pay the fee only once, independent of the number of "TV ready" equipment you are using. Only if you have some private radio/TV sets and some in your business, the fee is due twice (a car radio in a car used for business for instance has to be paid for in addition to the one in your home).
Why doesn't Germany license the internet like Car Driving. ie To use the internet you have to pass a Test and the pay renewal fees every couple of years.
Positives from a government point of view:
1)Eliminate/reduce clueless users supporting spam/virus writers/bot-nets.
2)YAT Yet another tax for the government
In germany,
...
if you own a device that is capable of receiving public tv or radio than you must
pay a fee of 17.52 Euro/Month (for tv and radio) or 5.x for radio.
But you have to pay only for one device even if you own more.
This money is used to fund the state owned public tv and radio stations across the country
To my knowledge, we have the worlds most expensive public tv with a annual budget of
8.2 Billion Euro where 6.5 Billion Euro are coming from the fee (2004 data).
In 2004 the ingenious people of the public broadcasting sector realized that there are
now some people watching tv using their computer and thus are not required to pay.
They got politics to define computers, mobile phones etc. with internet connections as "novel tv devices"
with the intention of getting the people to pay that dumped their regular tvs for
computers.
For some reason this legislation was postponed until 2007 and is now coming into effect.
Particularly annoying is this new fee for companies. Especially small companies as you
have to pay for tv devices used by the company an extra time. This means that if you
work from home and have payed already for your private tv you will have to pay again for
your business computer with an internet connection.
This created some offroar now because since around 2005 a company is mandatorily
required to do the tax stuff via internet, and therefore by law must have a computer
with an internet connection.
The offroar was ongoing and recently the public broadcasting people have agreed to lower the
fee for internet computers from 17.52 (the tv and radio fee) to only 5.x which is the
fee if you have only one radio.
For me, running a small business from home, that means I will have to pay about 23 Euro
a month for public broadcasting
It is called "GEZ Gebühr" (fee for the GEZ, the Gebühreneinzugszentrale - Central for fee collecting, a divison of the public broadcast services ARD and ZDF), everyone in Germany has to pay the GEZ fee to receive radio broadcasts (reduced fee, about 5 Euro per month) or TV and radio broadcasts (full fee, about 15 Euro per month). It does not depend on the number of devices, you have to pay 15 Euro no matter if you own one TV set or 10.000. Some group of persons may apply for exemption.
The original idea of the "internet fee" was that you could receive internet streams from the websites of the public broadcast services with an internet capable device (not only PCs, but also UMTS mobile phones), so a PC would be equal to a TV set (yes, that's how german politicans think) and you have to pay the full GEZ fee. It simply does not matter if you actually do receive those streams, all that counts is that you are able to recevie them.
After lots of complaints from nearly every organisation, the "internet fee" was changed to the reduced radio fee. This does not affect common households, because they usually already pay for receiving radio and TV broadcasts, so the PC is "just another TV set". But each and every company that uses even only one PC now has to pay 5 Euro per month for the ability(!) to receive TV and radio broadcasts via internet. A related information: The german tax authorities force you to use an internet capable PC for your monthly tax declaration, so nearly every company now has to pay the GEZ fee.
Tux2000, nearly becoming mad during the attempt to translate this nonsense into english
Denken hilft.
Beginning January 1st, Germany will require payment of a license fee of 5.52 euros a month on computers and mobile phones that can access TV and radio programs over the Internet. They're working on something like that in America. Except instead of the fee going to the government, you pay it to Verizon corporation.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
This hysteria is typical of slashdot and a load of rubbish; Here in Switzerland Computers with internet connections have paid the radio/tv tax for years now, and the sun still shines over the alps. The German law is exactly the same as the Swiss one and works like this:
Each household pays a monthly or quarterly bill to the state run TV and Radio stations. They pay the same amount no matter how many computers, TVs or radios they have. The bill is one single price per household.
Each company pays only one bill no matter how many computers or TVs they have. It is NOT based on the number of computers.
Slashdot and its sensationalist attempts to gather hits and therefore drive up ad revenue make their comments on any news event seem very hypocritical.
The fee is, in fact, not only the same as the one of 2004, it is also the same as the standard radio fee.
Which means that anyone who already owns a radio won't pay anything in addition.
The fee affects two groups of people:
a) Those who have neither radio nor television, but a PC or mobile.
b) companies, which usually fall into group a) if you want to be nitpicking.
Since I fall in group a) I will be engaging in civil disobedience next year. Many others will, too. It'll be interesting to see how that goes, because despite their advertisement, the GEZ (the company that collects the fees) does not, in fact, have any powers to actually do their job. They can send you nasty letters and that's about it. They can't enter your house if you don't let them in, for example. They can't return with police to force their way in, even if they claim they can.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
Needless to say, if the fee is supposed to be justified by the "programming being made available to everyone (with a license)", then it would really have to be
- available (under load - and that means during the evening news or blockbusters, and even at the end game's last minute of a soccer world cup)
- free of Digital Restrictions Management (if only to ensure anonymous access!) and not tied to any particular operating system, let alone a closed-source and expensive one
- at a fee that is substantially lower than for conventional over-the-air transmissions, as the receiver rather than the sender pays almost the entire distribution/infrastructure this way! (Everyone look at your ISP bills, in particular volume-based ones, or care to compute how many TV sets a day you could buy from the fees charged by German wireless operators for receiving IP streaming video, and Internet access in general, on your mobile phone...)
Three more things to consider:So the businesses' outrage at these surreal fees is quite justified.
If you already own a registered radio or TV, you are not going to pay additional fees anyway. Only those who are not registered yet will be affected if they own an Internet capable computer. Firewalls, filtering ISPs etc. are very unlikely to help - the fee collecting agency GEZ has been (in)famous for interpreting such obstacles their way consistently in the past (1), and has been successfully suing unregistered TV watchers. This is all regulated by a public broadcasting law for which the Prime Ministers of the German states are responsible. Resistance is futile. :-(
In the old days when the public TV and radio stations offered more sophisticated broadcasts it was OK to pay these fees IMHO. But nowadays these public stations suffer from decreasing watcher and listener numbers, and try to resemble the private TV and radio stations more and more. There's less and less differentiators that warrant such fees - except maybe the news on ARD and ZDF and the folk music broadcasts if you like them. The radio stations play the same pop and chart crap as everybody else – so-called "Dudelfunk" (roughly translated "tootle radio"). In the Munich/Augsburg area, there is a single radio station that has all the good rock music – but outside of Augsburg you can receive them only via the Astra Satellite, i.e. not when travelling by car (no Sirius offering here, folks). I have stopped listening to the radio (except for the news at times) long ago. >8-(
(1) They aren't dumb. It's too easy to use a web proxy outside of the ISP's realm in order to bypass any firewall rules. Except if ISPs start filtering the actual content but this requires much CPU and is senseless once you start using SSL.
open (SIG, "</dev/zero"); $sig = <SIG>; close SIG;
If this tarrif existed in the states it would literally cost me about $200 / month. Between game consoles, clusters of mac minis, laptops, rack-mount machines, media machines, cell phones and whatnot... Yea, I am a little gadget crazy, but perhaps I am just an early adopter...
We are asymptotely approaching a time when everything is connected to the Internet. If my toaster is connected to the Internet and has audio capabilites (and therefore theoretically capable of receiving and playing audio streams), would I have to pay the license? What about my fridge (many people already have Internet connected fridges with displays)? My washing machine? My iPod?
This legislation is astonishing. People will stop buying gadgets in Germany if every gadget has a state imposed monthly tarrif associated with it. It makes much more sense to simply impose a household tarrif (or even an individual yearly tax).
This smells like an underhanded way to get the masses to come out in favor of DRM in Germany to me. DRM presents a solution to the gadget tax!!! Hurray for DRM!!!
Politicians and Corporate interests are evil when combined.
It is your personal duty to fight for what is right on a daily basis. Ignoring injustice is identical to approving
Germans must love to pay taxes. They have the beloved Kirchensteuer, or "church tax," which amounts to 8 or 9 percent of taxable income for the 28 million German Catholics. Protestant, Orthodox and Jewish wage-earners also pay a church tax for their churches and synagogues. The German Catholic church was handed a cool $11 billion last year by the German Government and brought in another $5 billion on its own. That's an awful lot of money for an organization of just a few thousand priests - barely 150 new priests are joining the Catholic church annually in Germany these days - the average age is over 60! So what in hell are those old geezers doing with all that dough? And why do the Germans put up with such nonsense?
This tax is absolutely shocking.
So, you're sitting there, minding your own business, and the State comes along with what is an absolutely disgustingly expedient excuse of a reason - "your PC is capable of running Windows and is capable of receiving IP and so can be used to view public TV and radio, so you must support that public TV and radio" - and then takes your money.
It's a money-grab. It's simply a method to extract money.
It is utterly, utterly disrespectful to the people the State is supposed to represent; they're not being treated as people, but as wallets, to raid.
It's also absolutely insane from an economists point of view. Taxation inherently discourages growth. There are ways to tax which minimize discouragement. It is absolutely insane to tax in any other way. This tax is criminally stupid.
Finally, the simplest and most profound issue is that this event has *happened*, with all that it illustrates about the relationship between the German State and the people comprising that State.
Originally the amount set was the same as for the TV license, then it was reduced to the same amount as a radio license (17 reduced to 6 I think). There were some of good reasons for this:
- by being so greedy, they had alienated everyone
- the TV programs are not available on the net, or they are available in such poor quality that a PC is no substitute (unless a TV card is installed, but that is a different situation)
- radio programs are streamed to the net in decent quality
Really they should either scrap this fee altogether or only demand it if the radio fee is not being paid.ZDF (= 'Second German TV') is the problem with the second solution - they are a pure TV company who do not have radio programs so they would lose out - and pure greed militates against the first solution. Back when this fee was originally voted on, the German Government were complaining about the 'take whatever you can get' mentality. Well hello guys, look in a mirror.
The GEZ?
Aldi (a sort of WalMart selling groceries + all sorts of special offers) had a special offer selling TVs a couple of years ago. The TVs were boxed up and sold without being displayed. The GEZ wanted a TV license fee for each TV Aldi was selling, even though those devices were not hooked up. The GEZ won the court case. Consider them a mafia with the law and the courts in their rather deep pockets.
This fee is imposed at each location rather than on each device. So far.
As others have said here, businesses have to have internet-capable devices to submit tax-returns.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
2. If you already pay for radio or TV, you don't pay for your computer
3. The fee is the same as for radio, it was reduced from the much higher one for TV because there were a lot of protests and because they finally had to admit that currently only radio can really be received via the internet
4. A company only pays for one computer (if they don't already pay for TV or radio) per site
5. If you already pay for TV or radio but you use your computer for business, you have to pay for it.
In particular point 5 is a big problem: Small shops and people running a business from home will have to pay an additional fee even though they usually don't use the computer for receiving radio or TV. This is particularly stupid because the state requires businesses to deliver their tax forms electronically, basically forcing them to have an internet connected computer for which they then collect a fee.
(OK, it's not the inland revenue who collects the fee but a separate entity called GEZ, but it's the government that passes these stupid laws.)
The reasoning is that without the ads, the fee would probably be 600/yr instead of 200/yr.
So how do the BBC charge a lower fee, provide more channels of higher quality, run Europe's most popular content-based website and make more original programming, whilst not having advertising on any of their (license-fee-supported) channels?
PenguiNet: the (shareware) Windows SSH client
And for TV its not 5 Euro, its more in the range of 20 Euro.
... it anoys me to much to get ripped off liek this.
There are attempts to stop that, but likely they fail. If that is not from the table I will leave this country
o I don't own a TV set
o with a computer you actually can't watch TV, as no single station is even broadcastin into the internet (except some news every 2 hours for 5 or 15 minutes)!!
o it would be totally simple to use an authentification schema so that only ppl who pay hte fee could recieve (download/stream) TV
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
A "license" gives you some (more or less useful) liberties for what you pay. In contrast, the German government forces this fee on everyone that merely owns a radio, TV or "internet-capable computer" (which includes things like cell phones!). It doesn't matter if you want to actually access the contents, the mere possibility of doing so is enough for them to ask the money.
:-(
For me, a modern solution would include some settop-box for everyone that wants to access their contents, and they get a card to access it if wanted.
Comparably, I could put up the software I'm writing on the internet, and ask money from everyone that _could in theory_ download it.
This whole thing is hillarious!
- Hubert
If there is any further derision of state-funded broadcasting on Slashdot, and talk of "not paying for stuff we don't use" then the British Broadcasting Corp. will send the bailffs over to confiscate the pink Monty Python foot "funny" icon (plus any reference to Spam not concerning canned meat), along with all sigs containing quotes from Hitchiker's Guide, Red Dwarf or The Office. Plus any stories linking to BBC news - but then, that's biassed state-run propaganda, whereas everybody knows that you can trust Fox.
Meanwhile, in the supermarket: "Yes, I know that my grocery bill is $100 but, by my calculation, $5 of that goes to fund commercial TV via advertising campaigns, and I only watch bittorrents of Doctor Who, so here's $95".
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
The term used for justification is Grundversorgung (basic supply with news) really pisses me of. The first thought is, why should I pay for something, regardless wether I'm using it or not. Exspecially cable-modem users will be ridiculed (who will open the phone-line for 1 Euro/hour to listen to internet-radio?).
Basic supply with news only is required because of possible catastrophic event. But this fee should be paid by every citizen equally, because the emergency plans include sending around police cars with megaphones. Why is there no GEZ-fee on using megaphones??? Ok, better don't remind them. Where I'm getting my day-to-day news from on the other hand, should be my decision.
An internet connection is not necessarily a channel for "Grundversorgung" (what about washing machines with internet connection?). You have to pay already only if it is possible for you to access these channels (which are not only news like tagesschau.de but also come with a lot of other crap no sane person would pay for and which is not accessibly by internet anyway). The GEZ is extending its mandate way beyond basic supply with news and expects to get paid for it by mandatory fees. No thanks!
Effectively, in Germany, there are a couple of country-wide TV channels and then a channel per state. Unlike the UK where the regional specific production, in most cases is limited to a news show or two sharing a slot in a common national channel, the German system has almost completely different programming, sharing only the national news. That costs. The thing is that on my cable, I get most regional TV (WDR,SW3, etc)as well as my own (HR3) so I do get more choice.
See my journal, I write things there
Although I do not support that fee, this is not a big deal. Two reason: First: In germany, you pay a fee if you can receive some publicly funded tv or radio stations. If you pay that fee already, you do not have to pay the extra fee for the internet pc, because it is included. The money is then used to fund some tv and radio stations, which are usually of a really good quality and have little advertising before and none after 20h. The news show "tagesschau" for example is by far the most popular tv show in germany. The prices: If you have a radio (and/or an internet pc), you pay 5 euro something per month. if you have a tv, it's about 17 euro per month (radio/internet included). So: You only pay the new internet fee, if you do not have a radio and you do not have a tv. Second: If you don't want to pay, then simply say them you neither have a tv nor a radio/tv. They then come bugging you at the door, but they have no right to enter your house or apartment and even if they see a tv/radio/computer while you opened the door, it could be your neighbours machine. There is absolutely no legislation that is able to force you to pay.
In fact it is important to note that the license is covering Radio,TV,PC usage in a housenhold. If you are a pair living together but not married or registered as a pair, you will usually have to pay at least twice as two housenholds.
Then, the radios that are being taken to work should be licensed extra. Nowadays, when almost every modern mobile phone has an ability to receive TV programs, those should be licensed extra. Also the car radios would incur additional license fees this way or another.
Let's say you are a student and financially independent, but still live with your parents (and were using their TV or radios), you will then also have to pay for your Laptop.
A company has to pay for every location it has PC's installed. Say, you are a insurance broker, living with a partner but not married yet, having a separate office, and a car-radio. Your partner would be financially independent from you, but I calculate the costs for you two combined. You would also have a clerk, doing backoffice for you on your laptop on a separate location (e.g. at his home).
Here is a rough calculation of what you family have to pay every month
1. TV at home 17Eur
2. Radio in your partner's car 5EUR
3. Radio in your mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
4. Radio in your partner's mobile phone/ability to receive TV 5EUR-17EUR
5. PC at work 5EUR (as it is registered on your company)
6. Your clerk's PC 5EUR
something like 40-60 EUR in month - 600EUR a year, and that from your after-tax income!
My comment to the new law itself is that they just have to secure the source of income for their public broadcasting production for the times when people will start to throw away broadcasting TV's. Just this year Deutsche Telekom is rolling out an ip-based Triple-Play network, making usual broadcasting televsion in Germany obsolete. Almost every house in Germay has a last mile connection from Deutsche Telekom.
...a stunned silence fell upon the hall.
It is 6 Euro now. But it will triple to the TV fee soon enough. I don't own a TV set or Radio. I listen to some internet music stations from live365.com. And still, I will now be required to pay. Furthermore. businesses have to pay for each of their stores. Take the big consumer chains. ALDI, Lidl, REWE. They have thousands of stores. Also anyone self-employed has to pay twice now.
From 1st January 2007 every household in Denmark that has a PC and an Internet connection will have to pay a "media license" of DKK 2090 (EUR 280) annually, even if you don't use your Internet connection to watch TV streams from DR (the national Danish TV station).
The FAQ (in Danish) is here.
It sucks.
Unselfish actions pay back better
Thats plainly wrong as it is to fund the TV Program, not the distribution technology. The internet technology is already funded by the users via access fees. And by the way, it is a fee, not a tax as it is assigned to a specific use. A tax by definition is assigned to the general account of the state and not bound to specific use.
Came to the US in 2004. She says that she told the authorities she was ejecting.
They replied that, while changing continents was all very interesting, it didn't disprove her ownership of a TV or radio in Germany. (When she was a student in Ulm, she reports that they came by almost monthly, demanding entrance to inspect for gadgets).
She eventually had to cancel the bank account the authorities were tapping to stop the pain, after she had left the country.
My sister-in-law, still in Old Europe, is currently forced to prove that she doesn't own any of these gadgets.
Probably a libertarian argument in here somewhere...
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
Good for you! It's time to stand up to overbearing governments with their continual hunger for more control, more power and more money. You are taking a great stand (though it might be more effective to stay and try and influence future tax policy of Germany). When will countries learn that freedom of the people (in all ways including financial) is the most fair way of running a country. Why let the government decide what to do with your money? Do they know better what someone needs than the individual themself?
-> Sometimes, you just gotta break free from the shackles of proprietary code.