Slashdot Mirror
File Sharing Ruled Legal In Spain
stupid_is writes "As a follow-up to a previous discussion a judge in Spain has ruled that under Spanish law a person who downloads music for personal use can not be punished or branded a criminal. This seems to be a teeny bit clearer than the first article, which points out that downloading is a civil, and not criminal, offense for individuals. The Spanish recording industry federation Promusicae is predictably a bit peeved, and says it will appeal against the decision." From the article: "The state prosecutor's office and two music distribution associations had sought a two year sentence against the man, who downloaded songs and then allegedly offered them on a CD through email and chat rooms. However, there was no direct proof he made money from selling the CDs. Justice Minister Juan Fernando Lopéz Aguilar says Spain is drafting a new law to abolish the existing right to private copies of material. Due to different regulatory regimes in Europe, the proceedings against file sharers differ greatly in each country. However, most European judges tend to take a harder stance on file sharing. Twenty two people in Finland were fined €427,000 last week for illegally sharing movies, music, games and software, while courts in Sweden also fined two men who had downloaded movies and music for personal use."
427,000 what? Penguins?
Everyone also needs to keep in mind that in most countries where these things are issues, the offenses related to downloading things versus sharing them are completely different. I don't believe anybody even in the US has been taken to court merely for downloading. It's always about sharing (redistribution). It's frustrating when the media tends to use the two things interchangeably.
It seems that he managed to dodge the Music Industry bull charging right into him, with a quick waist movement and a flourish of his red cape...
No sig for the moment.
As a record store owner, My business faces ruin. CD sales have dropped through the floor. People aren't buying half as many CDs as they did just a year ago. Revenue is down and costs are up. My store has survived for years, but I now face the prospect of bankruptcy. Every day I ask myself why this is happening.
I bought the store about 12 years ago. It was one of those boutique record stores that sell obscure, independent releases that no-one listens to, not even the people that buy them. I decided that to grow the business I'd need to aim for a different demographic, the family market. My store specialised in family music - stuff that the whole family could listen to. I don't sell sick stuff like Marilyn Manson or cop-killer rap, and I'm proud to have one of the most extensive Christian rock sections that I know of.
The business strategy worked. People flocked to my store, knowing that they (and their children) could safely purchase records without profanity or violent lyrics. Over the years I expanded the business and took on more clean-cut and friendly employees. It took hard work and long hours but I had achieved my dream - owning a profitable business that I had built with my own hands, from the ground up. But now, this dream is turning into a nightmare.
Every day, fewer and fewer customers enter my store to buy fewer and fewer CDs. Why is no one buying CDs? Are people not interested in music? Do people prefer to watch TV, see films, read books? I don't know. But there is one, inescapable truth - Internet piracy is mostly to blame. The statistics speak for themselves - one in three discs world wide is a pirate. On The Internet, you can find and download hundreds of dollars worth of music in just minutes. It has the potential to destroy the music industry, from artists, to record companies to stores like my own. Before you point to the supposed "economic downturn", I'll note that the book store just across from my store is doing great business. Unlike CDs, it's harder to copy books over The Internet.
A week ago, an unpleasant experience with pirates gave me an idea. In my store, I overheard a teenage patron talking to his friend.
"Dude, I'm going to put this CD on the Internet right away."
"Yeah, dude, that's really lete [sic], you'll get lots of respect."
I was fuming. So they were out to destroy the record industry from right under my nose? Fat chance. When they came to the counter to make their purchase, I grabbed the little shit by his shirt. "So...you're going to copy this to your friends over The Internet, punk?" I asked him in my best Clint Eastwood/Dirty Harry voice.
"Uh y-yeh." He mumbled, shocked.
"That's it. What's your name? You're blacklisted. Now take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store - and don't come back." I barked. Cravenly, they complied and scampered off.
So that's my idea - a national blacklist of pirates. If somebody cannot obey the basic rules of society, then they should be excluded from society. If pirates want to steal from the music industry, then the music industry should exclude them. It's that simple. One strike, and you're out - no reputable record store will allow you to buy another CD. If the pirates can't buy the CDS to begin with, then they won't be able to copy them over The Internet, will they? It's no different to doctors blacklisting drug dealers from buying prescription medicine.
I have just written a letter to the RIAA outlining my proposal. Suing pirates one by one isn't going far enough. Not to mention pirates use the fact that they're being sued to unfairly portray themselves as victims. A national register of pirates would make the problem far easier to deal with. People would be encouraged to give the names of suspected pirates to a hotline, similar to TIPS. Once we know the size of the problem, the police and other law enforcement agencies will be forced to take piracy seriously. They have fought the War on Drugs with skill, so why not the War on Piracy?
This evening, m
EAT THAT SHIT SGAE
The comparison with Finland is invalid since the sentence was given for filesharing and not for downloading files. Untill recently the legislation in finland was as clear about downloads (i.e. they were legal). Now we have the new european version of the DMCA and there haven't been any cases to test whether that status has changed. Since the legislation is essentially (supposed to be) the same throughout europe, I would guess that simply downloading stuff is still legal.
I am completely confused:
1) The first article doesn't say that.
2) The second article sort of *does* say that.
3) Assuming that file sharing really has been ruled a civil but not criminal offense, the "Ruled Legal" headline via the dimwitted Register, plagiarizing submitter and sleepy editor is completely false.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Twenty two people in Finland were fined 427,000 last week for illegally sharing movies, music, games and software...
Er, 427,000 what exactly?
Or perhaps 427,000 people were fined twenty two of something?
Jeez, color me confused...
Two years in prison for copying a few files. Sheesh.
Still, they're working hard to change the laws. What they want now is for downloading to be illegal, AND for a tax to be placed on all recordable media. If they manage to pass it then I'll be paying the RIAA for all the CDs I use for data backups, all the CDs which end up as coasters because I dared to touch the mouse while it was recording, etc.
No sig today...
We know the hive mind that is /. can't grok the difference between copyright, trademark, and patents, but I'd think the difference between uploading and downloading wouldn't be out of reach.
Oh well.
And before you reply, "but BitTorrent...," two points: 1) are there any torrent clients that do not allow the user to control uploading? And 2) if there are, so?
In the words of the parent poster, "Downloading != Sharing"
The Spanish recording industry federation Promusicae is predictably a bit peeved, and says it will appeal against the decision."
I don't know what they expect by filing an appeal.
I mean, nobody expects a Spanish inquisition.
Someone fetch the Promusicae the comfy chair or some soft cushions.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
In the USA, isn't copyright infringement a civil matter (hasn't it always been)? While this news article is nice and all, it still doesn't address the root of the problem: people are being treated the same way as murderers and rapists when they get caught with pirated stuff.
(Haha, the CAPTCHA word was "defense", how apt)
Anyone?
I'm starting to think I know where my next vacation is going to be. Interesting how Canada and Spain have moved into the forefront of the civilized world while the US declines into a fascist police state. I'd rather live in Vancouver than LA or New York.
Now if only the Asian countries like China that seem to have a defacto policy of legalized file sharing would ease up on their draconian drug laws they could form an international coalition of states that actually support the rights of citizens. Within the UN they could get together and offer to send troops in to the US to beat back the repressive dictatorship that has taken hold through the simple trick of owning the voting machines.
George Bush was never, in fact, elected president and the neocons deflected the weak criticism of this fact by committing a massive crime to change the subject permanently. It will take international troops on US soil to pull the US out of the swan dive towards fascism it is in. Just watch, the GOP is going to make an amazing recovery in the next week. It will be hailed as the Will of the People! I'm already hearing this bullshit from the regular suspect. Looks like the GOP really does have a chance after all. Last minute polls show amaing spikes in enthusiasm for the Republicans. This all seems so familar.
The sad thing is that there is no help coming from the likes of countries like China. They're not really an alternative in the sense that they once were. It is amazing that Spain and Canada are as liberal as they are but they're not going to help us in the US in any way other than being great tourist destinations.
All the bullfighting ballads you can download, for free!
Where were you when the voynix came?
Is that in spain there is "law" that allow the sgae and company (RIAA equivalent in here) to tax the cd's and dvd's with more than one euro each (in the case of dvd's), to "compensate" for loses due to piracy.
Just so you can understand better... last year they got 300 million euros just in that concept. And believe me, you can bribe a lot of people with that.
Oh, I almost forgot, that money is shared unequally among the capos of the SGAE, leaving all the other 80.000 members with nothing.
In fact, the U.S. Congress took Judge Stearns up on his suggestion, adding the concept of commercial value and intent to profit to the criminal portion of the U.S. Copyright Law in the No Electronic Theft Act.
I would not be surprised to see the Spanish law changed to close this loophole as well. {Prof. Jonathan Ezor, Touro Law Center Institute for Business, Law and Technology}
When will the large record companies, the RIAA, etc. figure out that music has evolved? Music is digital now which means it can be transfered on so many formats that it is impossible for them to control who has what. If everyone remembers, back in the days of tapes, everyone shared music. I remember borrowing tapes and making copies. I never bought music, I bought blank tapes. If a friend didn't have a song I wanted, I listened for it on the radio and recorded it off that (granted the quality sucked). This is basically the same thing as file sharing. Why were they not tracking down the millions of kids that did this in the 80's?
Freedom is a state of mind. A mind is a state of being. Stay the fuck out of my mind and my being. - Corporate Avenger
I don't know the US legal system but from what I understood, every law transgression is 'criminal'. In most EU states, the 'criminal' label describes only the most serious violation. There are less serious violation, not called 'crimes' (I think you would translate it by 'offense') that are still illegal but the difference IIRC correctly is that you cannot be sentenced to jail for an offense.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
...but have no place to go, now you have a place to go!
Run with the bulls and download music and movies!
all the CDs which end up as coasters because I dared to touch the mouse while it was recording, etc.
how old is that burner that you don't have buffer-underrun protection? i haven't had a coater in 5 years due to a buffer underrun (liteon 482448s burner), though i have had a couple due to other factors such as the power browning/blacking out at bad times (i need to get a UPS) or the burning software crashing or whatever.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
When the musical artists of Spain cry out in anguish, suffering their poor fates, who will hear them?
Who will aid these poor souls, the noble artists who wish only to create beautiful works of musical art?
Who will avenge them upon the uncaring souls who insist on simply taking what they want?
El Kabong, that's who! <ka-bong!>
---GEC
I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
"Filesharing is theft. Plain and simple"
Once we peel back the "plain and simple" affirmation, we find an entirely incorrect statement. It is technically and legally impossible to steal via p2p.
"As a record store owner, My business faces ruin"
Why say records when you mean CDs?
"CD sales have dropped through the floor. People aren't buying half as many CDs as they did just a year ago"
Where is the blame being helped in iTunes, which is NOT filesharing, but is definitely eating into your business? Also, did you ever think that your unwillingness to serve your customers is part of the problem? I bet there might be a Wal-Mart nearby that will sell someone a CD at 10:30 at night, but you are could not be bothered, so you open late and close early.
"take yourself and your little bitch friend out of my store - and don't come back." I barked"
I wonder what else is going on there, if this indicates your basic attitude toward customers.
"Some people are offended by my blacklist system. I may have made my store less popular for pirates and sympathisers, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make to save my industry from destruction"
BR> So, basically, you are the captain of a sinking ship. Not only is the ship sinking, but you are down in the bilges with an axe chopping holes in the hull so it will sink faster. Tell me, have you hung the big sign "F*** OFF, CUSTOMERS!" in the window yet, or is that going up next week?
Where were you when the voynix came?
We fed the troll, but I have seen attitudes like this expressed elsewhere, expecially with so-called "mom and pop" stores that have terrible customer service and rip you off and then whine and blame Wal-Mart when they have to close.
Where were you when the voynix came?
Had you been paying attention to slashdot for a while, you'll notice a copy and paste of a particular sob story about their CD store.
I'd pull up the reference from the meme section on Wikipedia but someone has been busy merging articles and deleting information. *coughs*
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
Maybe your customers aren't buying CDs OR pirating music. I'd bet there's a good chance they took their money online to iTunes or Napster. That's not piracy, it's just a newer and more preferred method of buying music. Besides they don't have to deal with asshole clerks at the counter, either.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
pwn3d ... :)
[1] Not a typo.
Nope, no sig
Fuck man, that is either not well thought out or you are some kind of wingnut extremist. What the last minute adendum to the NET Act --and it was a last minute adendum to the original bill-- which you refer to did was to claim that transactions that were completely non-commercial should be considered . . . wait for it, yeah that's right --commercial!
That is absurd. That is nonsense. That is assinine and that is currently the law of the land in the US and you're saying that Spain should then adopt this same absurd premise that non-commercial IS commercial. That would be some brilliant fucking advice. NOT.
Okay, now how do I get a Spanish IP address?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
In Common Law, this ruling would have made a precedent which other judges in further cases should follow. In the Spanish system, judges are only required to follow what is stated in written law; rulings for previous similar cases are used only as a guide, but are not mandatory.
'I have to kiil abysmal sales and practical purposes handy, you are free win out; either the If you do not Are a pathetic person. Ask your not going home end, we need you
Yeah, that's true about the sentences in that finnish case, but you got to understand there is three levels in finnish court system. They were convicted in the lower level where you usually argue about speeding tickets and such. If somebody is not satisfied with the judgement then the case will go to higher level where way more things are taken into consideration until it is judged what the consequences are. So, that this case will go to higher law system and it might happen that the case is dropped.
So much has been said about illegal sharing of music and movies, yet still people seem to confuse the two separate terms "sharing" and "downloading".
Sharing is one thing and downloading is another. In some countries downloading isn't a crime against humanity (as RIAA would like us to believe), but sharing is (not against humanity anyway). One news story I saw lately, was about how police arrested 10 or so people for "pirating" movies and music and that they even confiscated a dedicated ftp server, however no-one accually said, that all of those arrested were sharing their music, not just downloading it. In Poland it's forbidden to share copyrighted material, but law doesn't say anything about downloading so you can use rapidshare or even p2p clients, as long as you have sharing disabled. Still, even popular news sites (some of which have mixed opinion on sharing) post articles clearly stating, that downloading mp3's will get you in jail. So please note the difference between sharing and downloading, because sometimes is a big one.
This brought a smile to my face. :)
Scientists need to be able to access the work of those who have gone before, collaborate with their contemporaries, and publish their works so that others may build on them.
In fact, many scientists are paid according as how many references their publications get.
In this sphere, being obstructive like saying 'file sharing is illegal' is not going to allow progress to happen.
So, I understand the point about the commercial music sellers. But please understand that commercial music is a luxury; I might spend spare money on it, or I might not.
But please figure that not all human endeavours are helped by locking down the Internet so that it can't be used.
There is a Euro sign infront of the number (if you can't see that, time to upgrade your browser ;)
The Euro is the name of the currency the European Union is trying to make the common currency of europe. Many countries are in the process of getting rid of local currencies in favor of the Euro.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Depends on how much you infringe.. htm
If you pirate more than $1000 worth of copyrighted works during any $180 day period, then it's criminal. Otherwise it's civil.
See
http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/17usc506
http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap5.html#506
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
The Finns who were fined an assload of money were admins of a popular torrent tracker (Finreactor). They got busted in late 2004. People who were charged only for uploading (not admining the tracker) were acquited, mainly because it was hard to prove what and how much they uploaded.
It must be noted that, while the sentence mentions "sharing", it doesn't mention P2P networks or anything. Moreover, what this guy did was to contact other people on "chats" (I don't know if he was using MSN or IRC or some other thing) and he was exchanging files with other people he met through email messages and normal mail (yes, they were sending CD copies to each other). This might have affected, I suppose, the outcome of the case.
In the newspapers yesterday they mentioned what's described in TFA, but today we were delivered the other side of the story, with the RIAA-equivalent organizations saying this doesn't set a precedent and that it was not very important due to the facts mentioned above. Nor that I agree with them or something, but it's nice to have both sides of the story and full information about what the guy was actually doing.
ffs, why must people persist in using "file sharing" and "illegally copying copywrite material" as synonyms? It's like saying that "driving a car" == "breaking the speed limit". Yes, you *can*, potentially, choose to do illegal stuff with file sharing utilities, just like you can, potentially, choose to break the speed limit when you drive your car. But that does not mean that one implies the other!
...I think people are going to have to go back to making their own music again.
Do not mock my vision of impractical footwear
The structure of the recording industry have changed under the last decades. Almost every one today can own the recording equipement, so what is important to those few companies is to own the legal rights on the recorded piece of art. When our politician will give away the rigth for the people to do private copy, as in Sweden today or maybe in Spain tomorrow, they just sign a blanck check to those companies and don't give a dime for the rights of their own people. Hoppefully, many musicians understand that much better as our politicians and we have today more and more independant recording labels. The future of the recording industry is with those independant labels. See http://www.iaspm.net/recordingindustry.htm for a briefing about the recording industry structure and http://www.matcallahan.com/ The Trouble with Music for the point of vue of an artist:
"Making music is a process as old as the human species,which means that if the music's in trouble because humanity as a whole is in trouble. The Trouble with Music speaks to those troubles and it maps a way out. It's invaluable."
"Like the replacement of essential nutriment by junk food, music lovers are expected to surrender their critical faculties and consume the phony McMusic that can be more effectively controlled and profitably sold than the genuine article..."