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Court Rules GPL Doesn't Violate Antitrust Laws
unix4reel writes "Internet Cases reports on a new decision from a federal court in Chicago holding that 'the GPL and open-source have nothing to fear from the antitrust laws. The suit was against IBM, Red Hat and Novell, arguing that by distributing Linux for free, they offered products at an unbeatably low price (free), thus discouraging new market entrants and stifling competition. The court took a different view, focusing instead on how the GPL fosters new development."
This just goes to show you, that the GPL is well written! Take that Microsoft!
Who's "plaintiff Wallace"? The Spam King?
Long live common sense!
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
The suit was against IBM, Red Hat and Novell, arguing that by distributing Linux for free, they offered products at an unbeatably low price (free), thus discouraging new market entrants and stifling competition.
Wrong, free is not unbeatable; they just need to pay the end user top use their software!
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
I would contend that OSS released under GPL does have a price.. that is, accepting of the GPL itself. I think that you will find that some people may find that a steep price indeed.
If the Court makes a mistake that fundamental -- the idea that you can't charge for software derived from other GPL software -- then we should all consider ourselves lucky that the opinion in toto was correct. IANAL, but doesn't this kind of "bug" open up possible avenues for appeal?
For anyone who doesn't know yet, there was a database error, and we can't reply to eachother until it's fixed. It will take a few hours.
There is a story about it on the main page, please stop asking about it.
The goodness of this victory is diluted by the fact that Wallace didn't have the money to properly argue his case. As such, it doesn't have much value as a precident. If someone with big bucks was making the argument, and if the GPL was being defended by someone with no resources, the decision could have gone the other way.
Note that the bully boys of the RIAA always go after people who don't have the resources to defend themselves. Even then they lose the occasional case. Justice in this country goes to whoever can hire the best lawyers.
Am I cynical? Yep.
What will he troll the usenet about now?
This should have been a really easy case in which prove a lack of harm to the marketplace: simply copy the GPL software released by IBM, Red Hat, and Novell onto a DVD, write your own label on the disk with a Sharpie (Sam's Software Stack, perhaps?) and then sell it to someone right there in the court room and ask the judge and the defendants if there is anything in the GPL license or the law which makes that act illegal. Case closed.
(IANAL)
It sounds like the case didn't deal with the GPL directly. The case dealt with selling software below cost. This is important, because in some states it is illegal to sell commodities below cost. (This was to deal with Wal-mart offering loss-leaders and driving small companies out of business). So it is a valid question to ask: Is it legal to sell software below cost? The court found that unlike commodities, the software industry can thrive with companies offering free software. That makes sense to me.
To put a fine point on this, it has little to do with the GPL (a copyright) since this was not an analysis of copyright. And it had little to do with open-source, since I can sell open-source software. It deals with free (as in beer) software.
So, some guy with no legal case loses to IBM's well paid legal team.
IBM has both the law itself, and reams of money on their side. The other guy doesn't.
This is about as close as it gets to an "open and shut" case.
What's this? A court that gets it and actually understands technology issues? Amazing.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Umm, if you think that someone with no resources could be successfully prosecuted for violating antitrust laws, you probably don't understand antitrust law at all. If you're too small to harm your competitors though anti-competitive activity, then by definition you can't violate antitrust law.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
Unless you are comparing it to the BSD license, then there is no price. The GPL only restricts how you may redistribute the product. Most commercial software cannot be redistributed, so this is a non-issue. The GPL in no way inhibits your abilities to use the software.
That is exactly what I am comparing it to. I am saying that the GPL has a price for certain "consumers", namely those that want to use the software as part of a bigger product.
GPL licensed software might be incompatible for me, because I may not be able to accept the license for a myriad of reasons. Therefore, there is ground for competition. I likened this to the "price" of the software.
Challenging the GPL on those grounds was doomed to fail, because the GPL's intent, and the intent of copyright are the same.
From the good ol' Constitution, Section 8:
"Congress shall have the Power"... "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries"
The whole reason we have copyright is to promote the useful sciences and arts, which is exactly what the GPL is for as well, they simply use different methods.
Not Spamford. Sounds like another "entrepreneur" who's considerable initiative and risk appears to be the extremely dangerous task of filing lawsuits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Wallace_(plain tiff)
It simply isn't American to charge nothing for nothing! How could they rule that it's ok to give stuff away for free?
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
Free isn't an unbeatably low price. You could always pay people to use your software.:p
Admittedly, I didn't RTFA, but if the summary above is at all accurate, and part of the argument is that GPL software being "sold" for free prevents new competition, then isn't the entire argument obviously flawed? Microsoft, Apple, Oracle, Blizzard, Adobe, etc. all make a killing on non-GPL software; is someone really going to try and tell me that GPL licensed software has made it too hard for them to compete?
Besides, Linux "vendors" are really in the support business. Nobody is stopping anybody from opening up their own support business for any distro they want. It can't even be argued that the 'vendors" have some sort of unfair advantage because of exclusive access t5o the source code... because they are required to distribute it, for free, to anyone who wants it. Even direct competitors! The only barrier to entry for me from slapping a decal on my car and declaring myself a traveling Linux support tech for hire is that, well, I'd be a thoroughly useless Linux support tech. And blaming that on IBM just won't fly no matter how good my lawyer is.
Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
This is the same person that unsuccessfully sued the FSF, also for alleged antitrust reasons.
The interesting point the court made is that antitrust law is made to protect consumers, not businesses. Selling below cost violates antitrust only if it's part of a plan to drive out your competitors and jack up prices later. Since the GPL doesn't allow the 'jack up prices later' part, there's no anti-trust harm to consumers, and no grounds for action.
was Grommit also a plantiff?
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
And you would be wrong, since accepting the GPL is not required to receive or use GPL'd software, by the terms of the GPL itself. It is only required to have the privilege of modifying or distributing software distributed under the GPL. Its not an EULA. You lose no right that you had without the GPL when you accept the GPL, you simply gain limited privileges that you did not have before.
Sorry, because of the database error we can't reply in a thread so I'll just reply here.
geoffspear wrote: "Umm, if you think that someone with no resources could be successfully prosecuted for violating antitrust laws, you probably don't understand antitrust law at all. If you're too small to harm your competitors though anti-competitive activity, then by definition you can't violate antitrust law."
IANAL but I don't think your statement is entirely accurate. I don't think a monopoly has anything to do with how much money you have or earn from your product. I could be wrong and if so I hope an actual lawyer will correct me but I believe that a monopoly is based on how much of a market share you control.
It would seem intuitive that if you controlled a monopoly share you would have lots of income from that share but in the case of Open Source many companies give the software away for free and earn their income through support services/contracts etc.
In a case like this your product could hold a monopoly share but if your services were not bringing in any money you could still be dirt poor.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
Pay people to buy it.
Or, under some definitions, sell below costs ala XBox360, PS3, Zune...
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Offer a consistently superior contract. In the OS business would, offer a consistently superior product for free, and charge for a good service contract.
Reply to this.
While this may have been a fairly gentle attempt at testing the GPL under antitrust, I doubt the GPL would be in much danger regardless of who it faced. There are enough people with investment (monetary, ideological or otherwise) in the survival of the GPL to stump up the cash should it depend on it. If we all gave a fiver...
Python coder | PyQt Applications | Writer
IANAL, but a law student. If the judgment is in your favor, even if all of the underlying facts or statements by the judge are incorrect, you cannot appeal. So, even if the judge misstated the GPL, the fact that he ruled in the favor of the parties defending the GPL means that they can't appeal to get his statements fixed.
http://bgcommonsense.blogspot.com
> Under the upcoming GPL v. 3, accepting e.g. a GPLd webserver will force me to distribute the source of my programs that run ON TOP OF IT
Pure and unmitigated bullshit! That's not even possible, since the GPL doesn't force anything! It relies on copyright law for its teeth, and your programs on top of the web server would not be derivative works as defined by copyright law, so there's no way for the GPL to affect them! What will change in the GPLv3 is that if the webserver (or a webapp) comes with a built-in option to download its own source, you will not be able to remove that option, and must ensure that any modifications you make to the server (or app) itself are reflected in the source that gets automatically downloaded, but there's absolutely nothing about magical "infection" of unrelated products. And that only applies to programs which already include the option to automatically download their own sources--a pretty small list indeed.
Where do people come up with this crap?
There are a number of reasons this is not legally required. Number 1, a document produced using a program licenced under the GPL does NOT constitute a derivative work, and as such, these documents are not required to be licenced under the GPL. Number 2, the GPL does not give the user an obligation to distribute his or her work. Admittedly, it's not ideal, but you would not be required to release copies of anything. You could keep all of the document on your computer, and then not be subject to the terms of the GPL. This is purely hypothetical, and assumes that any document produced would be subject to the GPL, which it wouldn't. Joe Innes
The suit was against IBM, Red Hat and Novell, arguing that by distributing Linux for free, they offered products at an unbeatably low price (free), thus discouraging new market entrants and stifling competition.
But when Microsloth did that with IE, it WAS so construed.
The antitrust laws are sufficiently plastic that any activity could be ruled illegal under them.
Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
Anonymous Coward asserted:
"The goodness of this victory is diluted by the fact that Wallace didn't have the money to properly argue his case. As such, it doesn't have much value as a precident. If someone with big bucks was making the argument, and if the GPL was being defended by someone with no resources, the decision could have gone the other way.
Note that the bully boys of the RIAA always go after people who don't have the resources to defend themselves. Even then they lose the occasional case. Justice in this country goes to whoever can hire the best lawyers.
Am I cynical? Yep."
You and a lot of other people will be rereading bits of this opinion for years. It was written for law school textbooks as much as it was to dispose of this case.
First off, it was a Court of Appeals decision, not a trial court. Second, it was Frank Easterbrook, a very well known and somewhat regretfully, well-regarded senior judge. He is a big in the Law and Economics school of judges and other judges pay attention to his stuff. He doesn't cream the plaintiff on something mundane like standing or another procedural issue. Instead, he deals clearly with the most basic antitrust and GPL philosophy issues imaginable. And he gets it right.
Ahem, please remove all copyrighted artwork and trademarks before redistributing.
But your point is well taken, The playing field is leveller(?) than ever, and I believe the Judges were able to come to that conclusion.
GPL wins in court, was there really ever any doubt? Uncertainty? Fear?
Feeling a little pollyanna after recent events?, maybe.
OSGGFG - Open Source Gamers Guide to Free Games
Why does it even matter what the court thinks about beneficial or detrimental effects to the software business? There are some folks who work on software in their own time and release it for free. Who will deny them their right to release whatever they own for free?
What's next? A writer releasing short stories or books for free... Will we also need a court musing about whether this is violates antitrust law?
This case should have been thrown out in the beginning.
Its too bad the court could not further rule that wallace is also an idiot.
honestly the GPL hating pricks out there need to STFU. on the one hand they put out bullshit "proving" that linux costs more, on the other they go to court claiming linux is unbeatably cheap - make your fucking minds up.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
But Microsoft claimed that the total cost of ownership for Linux is higher than that of Windows.
....consumer choice becomes illegal.
For that is what teh GPL is alll about.... comsumer choice, be the consumer a developer or an end user
http://search.messages.yahoo.com/search?.mbintl=fi nance&q=walter_oak_night&action=Search&r=Huiz75WdC YfD_KCA2Dc-&within=author&within=tm
Or use this url:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/t9uxc
Otherwise known as "how so many brain cells can get so much wrong"
Laughter inducing.
--
BMO
Sanford Wallace, the "spam king".
Daniel Wallace, who might have helped FSF by giving them a valuable prior case.
You don't have to accept the GPL if you are an end-user.
The only people who have to worry about the GPL are those who are going to redistribute the code.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but it was *against* IBM, Redhat, and Novell.
The little guy with no resources was suing them, not the other way around.
"If God had intended us to walk he would not have invented roller skates." -- Willy Wonka
Yes, and it literally couldn't be the other way around; Microsoft couldn't try to sue a little guy with no resources for selling GPL'ed software based on antitrust law, because by definition nothing the little guy with no resources does can possibly violate antitrust law.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
So you are saying that you are writing software that depends on some free software and you are mad that you can't use the free software in your non-free software? If you're a good software developer, then you can rewrite it.
To be honest, I think the GPL actually protects re-users because otherwise copyright would work against them. The Linux kernel, for example, contains the original work of hundreds of individual developers, each of whom has copyright over his code. If you use their code without agreeing to the GPL, well, you're using a lot of copyrighted source code without the authors' permission, aren't you? In fact this is how GPL challenges against companies like Linksys and Cisco have worked:
And that's how it's gone, every single time.Copyright can be use for both good and evil. But copyright protection these days is usually a synonym for profit protection.
This is not my sandwich.