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Mark Shuttleworth Tries To Lure OpenSUSE Devs
polar_bear` writes "A lot of developers are angry at Novell for its deal with Microsoft, but is it fair game for other vendors to try to capitalize on dissatisfaction with Novell? Apparently, Mark Shuttleworth thinks so. Shuttleworth sent an invitation to the openSUSE developers list inviting developers 'concerned about the long term consequences' of Novell's deal to participate in Ubuntu Open Week and consider jumping ship to Ubuntu. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu developers are not amused."
The idea of inviting developers to jump ship is too... un-Linuxy. OSS in general is not about getting the most developers, nor is it about sucking projects dry when they make an alliance with the heart of all computing evil. OSS is about choice. If developers are really unhappy with the alliance, they will jump ship themselves.
Why not targeting many Microsoft developers instead? That would help everybody in the FOSS community.
If any number of them were going to jump ship, wouldn't they just create a new distribution. They could recruit people from the Fedora team, Trustix Secure Linux, and Ubuntu.
I'd call it STFU linux.
--
Sometimes people are as stupid as they look.
A game has objectives and is competitive, anything else is just play
Did you really think there wouldn't be any?
you had me at #!
I don't see an issue with this. Mark's note was well written, and simply mentions that there are alternatives. It was not malicious or derogatory. As for trying to poach developers, you don't think the like of Novell and RedHat aren't doing that all the time? At least Mark is doing it out in the open, instead of using agents, ie. recruiters, to do it.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
No big deal. I mean really, they're not trying to hire them. They're trying to convince these guys to work for them for free instead of the other guys. The "invitation" is an invitation to go to some classes so people can learn how to get accepted to work for free. I can't believe people do this.
Certainly, some developers are not at all pleased with the Microsoft-Novell agreement. Mark is just letting them know they're welcome :P
Anyway, I don't see why this is 'un-Linuxy'. Competition helps OSS thrive, and if you can convince developers to work on your project, why wouldn't you?
Would you really like to invite MS to sue the crap out of every ex MS developer claiming code taint?
:-)
No? Didn't think so either.
Insert
I don't think that Mark was saying "Hey, come to Ubuntu, we need more developers" or "You should leave Novell now!". It appears to be more of "Hey, if you're leaving, our distribution has got big fast and there is always an opening for someone we know is good at what they do". Well at least it appears that way to me - just a statement made with good intentions that may have been interpreted by others in a different way. Happens all the time...
:(){
On one hand this post is blown out of proportion, probably just because it was written by Mark Shuttleworth. Whether he actually intended in his post to lure devs from openSuse to Ubuntu is hard to tell... If he had only posted "Hello", the fact that it's the openSuse list and the poster is the Big Man of Ubuntu would still make people believe he had an evil agenda, or whatnot.
On the other hand, as you will find out if you follow all those links in TFA+TFS, it appears *someone* at Ubuntu decided to ship binary drivers by default (!) in the next version of the OS. Now that is just wrong, for so many reasons. In any case, it doesn't show Ubuntu a pure-FOSS supporting distro. Some claim the decision was made with little or no community input.
And while the Novell/Microsoft deal is little more than corporate FUD, the binary driver issue and the world's most popular desktop disto's handling of the matter, is crucial. We need to pressure the hardware companies to release drivers, and Ubuntu may soon brutally undermine those efforts.
Mark, leave openSuse alone and do something about the binary driver issue. Please.
I am amazed that comments on his blog post are being deleted. I posted one around noon remembering him that ubuntu 6.10 uses novell software (gnome 2.16, which includes mono) and that he should be pushing novell to back out of the patent deal with microsoft instead of luring opensuse developers.
Open Source Java Web Forum with LDAP authentication
Someone sent an amusing response to the ubuntu mailing list:0 6-November/022578.html
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/20
Fabio Aquotte
The best part; OpenSuse's satirical response _____________ Kubuntu Edgy User
Did Microsoft hold secret talks with Novell prior to any public announcement to any agreement?
:) Google for yourself and see, there are a lot of juicy articles out there on this. And yes, I know about Xandros, my point is about where Corel Linux was headed.
If so, I would hope openSUSE developers would be more concerned about this, rather than a clearly *open* offer from Shuttleworth. I used SUSE for several years prior to Novell coming into the SUSE picture, before I switched to Ubuntu Linux.
I said it before and I'll say it again, I think Mr. Shuttleworth is brilliant.
Look, if Microsoft wanted to bring Windows and Linux together, why didn't they do it when they partnered with Corel around six years ago? (if, indeed, it was a partnership, correct me if I'm wrong please) Does anyone remember Corel Linux? It, like Ubuntu, was a Debian based Linux distribution, with an easy to use graphical installer! And this was around six years ago! (There was even a Corel Linux for Dummies book, check Amazon dot com and see for yourself) Anyone who wants to gain an enlightened perspective can google about Corel Linux and Microsoft and inform themselves. Here are a few important articles:
"Corel Sells Out To Microsoft"
"Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal" @ CNN 10/16/2000
"Microsoft Faces New Antitrust Probe Over Corel Deal"
"Government lawyers want to know more about a deal in which Microsoft gave Corel, perhaps best known for its WordPerfect program, $135 million in exchange for 24 million shares of Corel stock last October." "After the investment, Corel announced it would retreat from developing software designed to run on the Linux operating system, which competes with Microsoft's Windows operating system." - quotes source
"Microsoft Litigation" List - Educate yourself
I ask you: Who do YOU trust?
Do you want open meetings and discussions? Isn't that what an open source community thrives on? Or do you want secret meetings?
For those of you who would rather crack chair throwing or developer jokes and ignore the issue, read for yourself in an interview with Bill Gates dated 11/17/2006 where he mentions Novell, indemnification, and the word pioneering all in the same reponse to a question:
"Gates on Vista, Linux and more"
History repeats itself, and I believe, in my opinion, we're seeing it happen right now. IMO the Corel/Microsoft events in history should not be ignored. In fact, I suggest they be looked at again closely and compared to the present Novell/Microsoft events for educational purposes.
There's more at stake with the Patent Agreement than just some money changing hands. From what I understand, under the MS/Novell agreement, there would be a potential opportunity for maliciously inserting copyrighted material into the codebase of whatever OSS projects Novell is working on. The codebase could find it's way into other projects too, creating an unintentional derived work off proprietary code. This is why everyone is getting so pissy about the whole thing. There's an Open Letter to Novell on Bruce Peren's website filled with a bunch of sigs of people telling Novell they want nothing to do with them because of this. I posted this link in another comment yesterday. I'm not affiliated, I just think it's worth knowing about, and signing if it suits you. http://techp.org/petition/show/1
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his emphasis
Ok, there's two, warring stereotypes here. First:
Did anyone else picture that being posted by Sir Fauntleroy Etherbottom III directly after his monocle flew right off into the crumpets?
"I dare say, this Shuttleworth fellow is the worst kind of bounder. This sort of thing is just not done!"
Second:
"Stuff like what Mark did"
Ok, Cletus, simmer down! Y'know cousin Mark ain't been right lately, not since his ol' smell hound done up and runned off.
there is no need to sign your posts. this isn't usenet. your username is right there above your post. stop it.
I've spent a good weekend of my life trying to get the wireless working with Fedora Core 6, along with Ubuntu; you're really going to attract developers with the half assed, half baked crap that seems to being pushed out by the opensource developers? get the damn product working properly, then maybe those "Microsoft developers" will view Linux as a viable platform to develop on, rather than some operating system for those who wish to waste a whole weekend on trying to get the damn parts working properly.
As for Shuttleworth, its about bloody time he piped down from his grand standing and actually got his damn distribution working correctly out of the box rather than jumping on every Microsoft and competitior bashing bandwagon that goes past his doorway, and instead, actually correct the deficiencies in his distribution; like the lack of WPA configuration and setup - no wpa-gui sucks, its broken and doesn't work.
The day I can dump a ditribution on his oh-so-generic laptop (Toshiba A100) and everything works out of the box, without distorted sound, constant wireless network dropping - then Linux will have made a success on the desktop, until then, it'll be relegated to the server and the desktops of those with way too much time on their hands.
Yeah, I'll get marked down, and a jihad declared on my ass because I *dare* question the almighty penguin agenda, but for christ sake, part of being an adult is accepting praise as well as acknowledging deficiencies and correcting them as they arrise - something which the Linux/OpenSource community is no very good at.
... is EXACTLY what would benefit Microsoft the most. Sowing the seeds of paranoia and distrust WITHIN your enemy's community is a classic tactic.
This is a sig. It is like every other sig in the world, except that it is mine, and it is different.
Microsoft cannot defeat FOSS through their traditional means.
Microsoft has to, somehow, put a cage around it. It can be a big cage. It can be a HUGE cage. But Microsoft needs to put a cage around it.
Microsoft is trying that with this "patent agreement". It (with Novell's support) splits FOSS into two groups: "Microsoft supported" and "lawyers may sue you".
That gives Microsoft another chance to move the people from the "lawyers may sue you" group into the "Microsoft supported" group. And once they're there, they're in the cage and Microsoft can alter the rules how ever they want, whenever they want.
Which is why I have a problem with Novell's "patent agreement" with Microsoft. Particularly with how Novell is marketing it in Europe where they are pushing the "patent protection" as an important "feature" of SuSE.
Mark said something a little brassy that needed to be said.
Each of us must decide if the Novell/Microsoft deal changed the way we fundamentally view Novell and Suse. That is even more true of anyone developing a platform that is a part of this deal.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
For better or for worse, GTK is a very attractive GUI toolkit for commercial developers to code with. Hence, Sun, Redhat, and (recently) Novell all write their apps in GTK and use Gnome for the desktop environment. In fact, until very recently Suse was a holdout to this rule, and was very KDE and Qt centric. I would wager that Gnome has seen much more code from Redhat (and Sun) than it has from Novell. And Gnome is still very much a free desktop environment.
As an aside, I would like to point out that despite great protest from KDE fans, it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars. Trolltech aside, Gnome and GTK have the most commercial support behind them, and that support is really translating into a huge amount of momentum for Gnome. I have long been a Gnome user, and I remember just a few years ago when the number of KDE users vastly outweighed the number of Gnome users, and now it seems just the opposite. Given this trend, and they heavy investment that Canonical has made in Gnome, it really doesn't make sense for them to switch desktop environments.
#include ".signature"
Derivative works of copyrighted works are not allowed at all without permission of the copyright holder anyways... the fact that the copyright holder says that derivative works can be freely created without royalty as long as they are put under the same license is not denying anybody any rights they would have otherwise had. People who bitch about how viral the GPL is should take a long hard look at this fact.
Besides, since the GPL's strength comes from Copyright, and Copyright can't protect ideas, so there's nothing to stop you from learning something from a GPL'd work and then reimplementing the ideas yourself, free of any constraints of the GPL, as long as you don't actually copy any previously copyrighted content that was covered by the GPL (but that has more to do with copyright than the GPL).
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Ubuntu is sort of close... but by refusing to have anything proprietary it will never "just work" because graphics drivers and such aren't free as in beer yet.
Ubuntu 7.04 will have proprietary drivers installed by default to make way for AIGLX and Compiz or Beryl. And they are free as in beer, but they're not free as in speech.
There's a pretty big controversy a-brewin' at the wiki about the decision, but I think it's justified. Some compromises have to be made in order to survive a proprietary world, and it's still primarily free software. I don't want Ubuntu to be left behind as the last major OS without a compositing window manager after Vista launches. What really concerns me is how this'll go over after the Kororaa controversy.
..of SuSE. SuSE looks good, mature, polished, professional, industrial, etc. It is not secret that SuSE always looked darn good. Unlike some other distros. Strongly IMO the GNOME themes that come with SuSE are very polished and not lacking in any department, an evidence of professional work.
Remember when Mr. Shuttleworth was calling for developers to improve the looks of Ubuntu? Well this is the same call. Let's get them when they are pissed. They got evident skills.
it looks like Gnome is winning the desktop wars.
Oh great! I just switched to KDE. That just figures.
P.S. I'm glad you said the number of KDE users outweighed the number of Gnome users, and not KDE users outweigh Gnome users. I'm a little sensitive about my excess poundage.
When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
It looks like that in one year your advice to some novice at slashdot.com will read: ''You should have known that mentioning Ubuntu, Novell, Xandross, Freespire, Linspire or Lindows as model distros in Slashdot is karma suicide!''
O, Tempora! O, Mores!
How was it off topic? It looked very on-topic to me.
Either way, Mark Shuttleworth wasn't being malicious. He wasn't trying to offend anyone. Moral rights are subjective things, and clearly this didn't offend his own morals, so he wasn't abusing anyone's trust.
And if that means that you have to compromise the licensing on someone else's code then that's a sacrifice that you are willing to make, right? Why not go the whole hog and just pirate Windows?
For reference: http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/ols_2006_keynote.h
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are illegal."
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are unworkable."
"Closed source Linux kernel modules are unethical."
Why would it not be? For that matter, why would it not be okay to post a single, polite message along the lines of "Hey, we're doing great things over here and have openings if anyone's interested" even if the deal hadn't been made?
Spamming the list with repeated messages would be wrong, as would making threats, lying, etc. I don't see how a single, polite invitation to switch groups would be wrong at almost any time, though.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
He was referring to Shut The Fuck Up And Dance, the new Monkey Boy distribution that is better equipped than any other to take over the DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS, DEVELOPERS and ultimately win the war against Microsoft on MS' own terms by embracing and extending the Redmond tactics as their own.
Spine World