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Test for "Obvious" Patents Questioned

bulled writes "News.com is running a story about a case coming before the US Supreme Court on testing new patents for 'obviousness'. The decision has potential to significantly impact the High Tech industry." From the article: "Several Silicon Valley heavyweights, including Intel and Cisco Systems, have submitted supporting briefs that urge the Supreme Court to revise an earlier ruling. That ruling, they claim, has helped make it easier to obtain patents on seemingly 'obvious' combinations of pre-existing inventions."

172 comments

  1. How about reforming patents all together... by pembo13 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    so that the only ones who can benefit from patents heavily are the "little guys". Big companies have little incentive to use patents in any other way except that benefits their bottom line. So just let the little guys benefit, and the public as a whole may just benefit some more. (I do not really consider lawyers to be part of the public - sorry)

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    1. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      so that the only ones who can benefit from patents heavily are the "little guys". Big companies have little incentive to use patents in any other way except that benefits their bottom line.

      The point of patents is to benefit the bottom line of the patent holder - doesn't matter if they're big business or and individual.

    2. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by fyngyrz · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I do not really consider lawyers to be part of the public - sorry

      Lawyers aren't the problem. Laws are the problem. Laws come out of legislatures, and legislatures are out of control, have been for decades. Speaking of the US, as a US citizen. Not familiar with other systems. Entirely too familiar with ours.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    3. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by SmokedS · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The point of patents is to benefit the bottom line of the patent holder - doesn't matter if they're big business or and individual.


      Actually, that's never been the stated purpose of patents. The government is not supposed to be in the business of enriching individual people or corporations, and they are well aware of it. The rationale for patents, as for any regulation, is to attempt to optimize the entire system. In the case of patents, by encouraging innovation. That's the party line, and pretty much every party around the world toes it.

      There's a bit of a problem with it though. There is actually little to no real evidence of patents being beneficial to the economical system. For any technological discipline. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence of it actually inhibiting progress in a number of areas, the most blatant case being software patents. Patents have become a tool for the large companies that are on top to stay on top, and not to have to actually compete on the merits of their products. The basic tenet in the belief of the beneficial nature of patents is the belief that progress moves along in giant leaps of imagination, or immensely costly research, that is so rare that it needs protecting. For the most part this is just not true. Progress is slow and gradual and constantly builds on existing solutions. Patents are not beneficial in such a system.

      The most popular poster child argument for patent proponents is pharmaceutical companies. "If there were no patents, no drugs would be developed due to the great cost, and where would we be then?" they ask. This doesn't hold up under scrutiny though. Analysis of the higher cost of patent encumbered drugs and the research budget of drug companies will show you in no uncertain terms that the state could spend several times the amount of money that the pharmaceutical companies spend on research, and our society would still save money because the price gouging is so brutal on patent encumbered drugs. The state funding drug research itself would also bring with it the not inconsequential benefit of the ability to concentrate on beneficial drugs, rather than drugs that will make a profit.

      There are actually few rational arguments for any sort of patents, and very substantial arguments against them. Overwhelming arguments in the case of software patents. However, the companies that profit the most from the oligopoly maintaining power of patents are among the most powerful legal entities, and lobbying groups, in the world. Just about everyone except for patent attorneys and mega-corporations with huge patent portfolios oppose software patents. In spite of this they almost got legalized in the EU, and the proponents of them are trying again from a different angle now. Frustrating to say the least.
    4. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Patents don't tend to benefit the "little guys" because the "little guys" don't have the time or money to invent and to then market the invention. No matter how you change the system, switch it around, any system that rewards invention will definitely reward the "big guy" over the "little guy".

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    5. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Bastard+of+Subhumani · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Lawyers aren't the problem. Laws are the problem. Laws come out of legislatures, and legislatures are out of control, have been for decades.
      The legislatures aren't out of control. The question is, whose control are they under?
      --
      Only three things are certain; death, taxes, and apocryphal quotations - Ben Franklin.
    6. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      You're quite right. My statement was based upon the idea that if they're not under the citizen's control, they're out of the constitutional realm of legitimate operations. But of course, they're under the complete and direct control of PACs and corporations. This is a miserable state of affairs for the citizens.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    7. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Kattspya · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's a link to a study that supports the OP: http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/again st.htm (PDF-warning)

    8. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have a few issues with this reasoning:

      If no patents existed, everything would become a "trade secret". Essentially, every factory would become a Willy Wonka factory, where no one knows how a product is created - it just pops out. Key technologies could be lost if a person dies or a factory burns down.

      Second, maybe I'm too cynical, but I see zero evidence that a government body could do as good a job with drug development as the free market. There are many, many failed drug companies - they took a risk on a new technology and failed. Politicians would be under fire for "wasting" money if they went down this path, and so government drug development would proceed down the safest path, where the employees and politicians would be as concerned about covering their asses as anything else. Not to mention that government departments tend to be chronically underfunded, full of corruption and nepotism, and very slow to react.

      I think that there needs to be an additional test for a patent: would it become a trade secret if it weren't disclosed in a patent? This would allow a novel manufacturing process to be patented (even the software controls!), but would prevent things like Amazon one-click. Presumably, Amazon would have done the one-click thing with or without a patent system... so why should they get the protection? How does society benefit? Many of these software patents are asinine because they are right out there in plain view, and there is ample incentive for the companies to do them without the patent system. Apple's "look and feel" is a prime example. Does anyone argue that Apple now spends less time on look and feel since Microsoft won that case?

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    9. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by quickgold192 · · Score: 1

      "If there were no patents, no drugs would be developed due to the great cost, and where would we be then?" they ask. This doesn't hold up under scrutiny though. But then you go on to say how if there were no patents the state could pick up the slack, thus invalidating your point. Patents *do* give pharmaceutical companies the incentive to spend massive amounts on R&D. Without them we would have to fall back on your socialist alternative.

    10. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention that government departments tend to be chronically underfunded, full of corruption and nepotism, and very slow to react.

      And companies aren't?

      Seriously, if all the screwed up shit out there actually managed to kill off all of the companies that were full of it, we wouldn't have Dilbert.

    11. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by russ1337 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >>"If no patents existed, everything would become a "trade secret". Essentially, every factory would become a Willy Wonka factory, where no one knows how a product is created - it just pops out. Key technologies could be lost if a person dies or a factory burns down."

      Once that first product 'pops out', reverse engineering kicks in. Take the 3M approach - they know their product will be copied so aim to be first and fasted to market to make their cash quickly by being innovative ahead of their competition. This gives the OEM a window in which to maximize their sales/profits, and promotes competition and technical innovation.

    12. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by MightyYar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No system is perfect, but it is much harder for a government to fail than a company. As bad as Dilbert's world is, it pales by comparison to the workings of a government agency.

      At any rate, even if Merck turns (turned?) into a big bloated mess, they still have the capital and opportunity to snatch up a small startup with promising technology. Many, many of these small startups fail - but many are also snatched up by the bigger guys. Thus, even when the big guys get bloated and unresponsive, bleeding edge research can still occur because venture capital will fill in the niche. Actually, this is a pretty nice arrangement, because the big, bloated company is probably very good at all of the bureaucratic stuff involved with testing and getting a drug approved with the big, bloated government. If government were the only game in town, there would be no venture capital to fill in the niche - and I'm not at all confident that the government would fill it themselves.

      I'm not one of these crazy capitalist guys, but I do happen to think that it works pretty well if you are willing to put up with the inevitable cycles in the market. Government is good for slow, plodding, and steady. For this reason, I happen to be fairly pro-free-market, except when it comes to critical infrastructure like food, water, sewer and electricity. Some free market is okay in these cases, but frankly I'm willing to pay a premium for my food if it ensures a steady, affordable supply :)

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    13. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by LaughingCoder · · Score: 4, Insightful
      ... the state could spend several times the amount of money that the pharmaceutical companies spend on research, and our society would still save money because the price gouging is so brutal on patent encumbered drugs.
      Are you serious? Remove the profit motive? State funding? Have you seen the condition of public schools in the US (hint, quality is awful and costs are sky-high)? Have you seen the condition of the roads and bridges? How would you compare the efficiency, cost-effectiveness and customer service of the US Post Office with Fed X and UPS? Let's talk about airport security. Or border security. Paragons of efficiency? While we're on the subject, how well run is the US Patent Office? You really think the government would do a better job of drug R&D? That flies against *all* empirical evidence of the last 500 years. No, if the state developed drugs we'd have $20 aspirin tablets and not much else.
      --
      The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
    14. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, that's never been the stated purpose of patents.

      Nor does it need to be for it to reflect how they work.

      The government is not supposed to be in the business of enriching individual people or corporations, and they are well aware of it. The rationale for patents, as for any regulation, is to attempt to optimize the entire system. In the case of patents, by encouraging innovation. That's the party line, and pretty much every party around the world toes it.

      The point of a patent is to impose artificial scarcity and hence increase an invention's value. Note that the "invention" is distinct from the ensuing "products".

      As soon as you take money out of the equation, however, patents are pointless. Ie: it's all about the bottom line.

      There are actually few rational arguments for any sort of patents, and very substantial arguments against them.

      The rational argument for patents is the same as the one for copyright - that there is no (known) better way to create value where it would not otherwise exist (ie: in the face of infinite supply). Patents in the real world are much less of a problem, however, because they are opt-in. There _is_ the significant flaw in contemporary times that patenting things is *way* too easy, and that some things which should not be patentable, are (your example: software), but that largely a flaw in the execution, rather than the concept.

    15. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Ours · · Score: 1

      Some other systems have a very nifty obligation to make common sense prevail.
      Where I live it's the case. It may sound obvious but it's missing from US/UK legislative system.

      --
      "You superiour intellect is no match for our puny weapons" - The Simpsons
    16. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      That's fine for certain products, but let's use Damascus steel as an example. We THINK we know how they made it now, but the secret was lost for over 300 years. This illustrates how reverse-engineering is not always sufficient to recover a "trade secret". If someone in India had patented Damascus steel back in 300 BC, the patent might have expire by now :)

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    17. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by jackbird · · Score: 1

      ...but the mine with the properly contaminated ore would still be exhausted, and we still wouldn't be able to make any.

    18. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Sure, the mine would have still been exhausted. But without knowing the process, we can't even be sure if we have it right even if we re-create the minerals in the "proper" ore, or if we find another deposit that we think is about the same. If we had a process, we could test our ore combinations against the known process to see if we get the proper result. Right now we just have to theorize.

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    19. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by unknownideal · · Score: 2, Funny

      In Soviet Russia... Oh yeah, that's right, Soviet Russia no longer exists. So much for leaving it to the state.

    20. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      And further, the two systems are not mutually exclusive! We can (and do!) fund drug research with public dollars, while letting private companies make money selling drugs that they have developed.

      Also, funding priorities will get just as screwed up with public dollars as with private dollars. Think of how much public money would get funneled into HIV, even though it is a very small problem - in terms of deaths - in the US. This is simply because HIV is "scary" compared to a heart attack or even cancer. In the private system, Viagra gets funded in the private system at the expense of some other medication... this is because Viagra is quite profitable. There is nothing wrong with keeping both systems in place - they have different strengths and weaknesses. The government can base their funding on lobbyists, and the drug companies can base their funding on bottom line.

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      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    21. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      >There is actually little to no real evidence of patents being beneficial to the economical system. For any technological discipline.

      Huh?

      http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&lr=&q=pate nt+%22economic+growth%22&as_ylo=2005&as_yhi=2006&b tnG=Search

    22. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      How would you compare the efficiency, cost-effectiveness and customer service of the US Post Office with Fed X and UPS?

      Customer service at the USPS has always been excellent in my experience. And given they're covering the costs while charging a pittance for delivery, I'd be surprised if their efficieny or cost effectiveness is worse than the other two.

      In my experience, they deliver faster than UPS Ground too. I've never used FedEx ground so can't comment on that.

      --
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    23. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by evil_Tak · · Score: 2, Funny

      The government is not supposed to be in the business of enriching individual people or corporations, and they are well aware of it.

      You must not be referring to the United States government.

    24. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      Big companies have little incentive to use patents in any other way except that benefits their bottom line.I suppose small companies have an incentive to use patents to create rainbows and help fluffy bunnies.

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    25. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 1
      Big companies have little incentive to use patents in any other way except that benefits their bottom line
      A patent is a government sponsored monopoly on an invention. They are a means of improving your bottom line. What else are you expecting them to do?

      So just let the little guys benefit, and the public as a whole may just benefit some more
      I don't see the connection between "little guys" and "public as a whole". Maybe you can explain further.
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    26. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by nine-times · · Score: 1

      cost-effectiveness and customer service of the US Post Office with Fed X and UPS

      I don't know... less than 50 cents for someone to carry a piece of paper across the country in a weeks time... that seems pretty cost-effective to me.

      In reality, a lot of scientific research is done at the university level. It's overly simplistic to think that we could simply abolish patents and, without the profit motive, get the same results. It's also overly simplistic to think that, if you drop the patent system, the human race will simply cease trying to cure disease.

    27. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the condition of public schools in the US (hint, quality is awful and costs are sky-high)?

      Costs are *much* lower than private schools. The cost per student in public school for educating that student is about half of the private school average. Or, look at Social Security. It may not have the best system for collecting and distributing money such that it is controversial, but the costs involved are much lower than private investment fund management. Compare the costs of SS to any mutual fund and you will find the government does it much cheaper. It i easy to bash government spending, but the government does many things better than the private sector, including education and money management. When you have the ability to look at the government's actions objectively, let me know and I'll bother to read past the first line of your rant.

    28. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by PsiPsiStar · · Score: 1

      The basic tenet in the belief of the beneficial nature of patents is the belief that progress moves along in giant leaps of imagination, or immensely costly research, that is so rare that it needs protecting.

      I think the original idea was that without patents, companies wouldn't release their innovations into the public domain.

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      ___
      It's the end of my comment as I know it and I feel fine.
    29. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1
      Big companies have little incentive to use patents in any other way except that benefits their bottom line.
      Gah! The big companies might make more money! Horrible! Seriously, I'm by no stretch a fan of patents as they are today -- but arguments like this aren't going to convince anyone who needs convincing.
    30. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by asuffield · · Score: 1
      ... the state could spend several times the amount of money that the pharmaceutical companies spend on research, and our society would still save money because the price gouging is so brutal on patent encumbered drugs.


      Are you serious? Remove the profit motive? State funding?


      The US is abnormal in that it doesn't do this (instead, leaving it to the medical insurance companies to finance research - the insurance companies pay for any research that looks likely to reduce costs of treatment, they don't care about patents). In most of the world, roughly all medical research is paid for by the government, from tax money, as part of the welfare state system (through a combination of direct grants, and artificially inflated drug prices when the welfare state is paying for the drugs).

      The research is still done by the medical companies, it's just paid for by governments. No profit motive. The company then patents the results of that research.

      He's serious. This is how everybody else does it (only the patent price-gouging bit remains a problem, so nobody's saving money).
    31. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by Irvu · · Score: 1
      Analysis of the higher cost of patent encumbered drugs and the research budget of drug companies will show you in no uncertain terms that the state could spend several times the amount of money that the pharmaceutical companies spend on research, and our society would still save money because the price gouging is so brutal on patent encumbered drugs.


      Actually the state does spend several times what the drug companies spend, at least in the U.S.. Here most if not all basic research, the kind that leads to new drugs, is funded by the National Institute of Health (NIH), The National Science Foundation (NSF) with additional funding coming from groups such as the Department of Agriculture (new crops and crop engineering), and probably the FDA. Certainly the spending of the first two (NIH and NSF) vastly dwarfs the spending of the private drug companies and is focused on developing new cures, new technologies, and the basic understanding of diseases that lead to new cures.

      By contrast most of the research funding from drug companies gets spent on things like Calculating Dosages, etc. Studies have shown that their spending on research is generally flat no matter what their profits are while spending on marketing absorbs big gains.

      Take AZT for example. AZT was developed by researchers funded by the NIH. Under the auspices of the Byah-Dole act it was then sold to a private company. That company then proceeded to ignore it. Later it was the NIH that discovered that such drugs might be useful for attacking AIDS and sent out a call for people with such drugs. Their call was ignored. It was an NIH researcher who (at his own risk) actually tested the drug on live viruses and proved that it would work. The company then patented their dosage levels in England, and used international IP laws to enforce that "patent" in the U.S. They have also been the ones clamouring to have "their rights" protected against cheaper copies being made in countries where AIDS has ravaged half the population.

      Another one, Viagra, also developed by the NIH and "purchased" by a private company under the Byah-Dole act.
    32. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by GWBasic · · Score: 1

      The need for patents is obvious: Let's say I spend a billion dollars developing a widget that costs 1 dollar to manufacture. In order for me to recoup my costs, I need to sell my widgets at 10 dollars apeice. The patent system prevents someone else from selling exact replicas of my widget for 2 dollars apiece.

      Granted, there are flaws. Perhaps the patent system should allow for compulsary liscensing schemes? Perhaps the length of protection should be negotiable? Perhaps it should be more difficult to get a patent?

    33. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by StikyPad · · Score: 1
      Take the 3M approach - they know their product will be copied so aim to be first and fasted to market to make their cash quickly by being innovative ahead of their competition. This gives the OEM a window in which to maximize their sales/profits, and promotes competition and technical innovation.

      You mean the same 3M that's arguing against patent reform?

      They argued that anything different from the Federal Circuit's test would erase the "predictability" they have come to expect in the patent application process and would inject too much subjectivity into deciding what is obvious.

      "Changes to such settled rules of law involve numerous policy considerations, which should be left to Congress rather than the courts," attorneys for 3M, General Electric, Procter & Gamble, DuPont, and Johnson & Johnson wrote in their brief.

      Above from TFA .
    34. Re:How about reforming patents all together... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Have you seen the condition of the roads and bridges?

      Most of the roads and bridges in the US are in excellent condition. Some states suck (Illinois, I'm looking in your general direction), but overall they're flat, smooth, and largely free of patchwork, which is much more than you'll get in most countries The US interstate system is one of the few successes of government, along with...

      How would you compare the efficiency, cost-effectiveness and customer service of the US Post Office with Fed X and UPS?

      Outstanding. I can get a package shipped Priority Mail for a fraction of what UPS charges, and I can mail 3 letters for just over a dollar, which is likely to arrive within 5 business days, or 1-2 business days for local mail. Fedex would charge $10, minumum.

      A 1'x1'x1' 5lb package from San Diego to Washington DC, door-to-door:
      Priority Mail: $12.80
      UPS 3 Day: $28.80
      FedEx Express Saver: $29.76

      And if you live outside of the lower 48, there's no comparison -- the USPS is the best deal going.

      That said, I don't want the government making drugs, but the interstate system and USPS are excellent value for the money.

  2. The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Most patents, especially for software, are obvious after the fact. Programmers look and say, man, that's so obvious!

    But is it? Look at the battery problem mentioned in the article. Now we look and say duh, of course it makes sense to wrap batteries in a metal cylinder. But until that point no one had thought of doing it. The solution stared at them in the face, but no one ever sat down to think it through.

    Same with a lot of software patents. Yes, when you look at them, they seem totally brainlessly obvious. But then why hadn't anyone thought of it until that point? Why did the idea not exist, or at the very least have a patent pending? Because until someone sat down and thought of how to best implement something, it simply hadn't been thought of seriously until then.

    Ask anyone who has submitted a patent application whether they felt their patent was frivolous. I imagine you'd find the vast majority of them holding the belief that they did something novel.

    1. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Bullshit.

      Hundreds of people submit patents that they know are not novel. Tell me the guy that patented the "Knork" thought he was the first person to put a fork and knife together. Their genius is realizing that such stupid things can be patented.

    2. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >> Programmers look and say, man, that's so obvious!
      I don't. I go, "Wow! That's pretty smart/elegant way to do so and so. I will keep that in mind if I happen to come across similar problem in the future."

      I am no opposer of software patents but all the software that is created is not patentable. eg. LZW compression falls into my classification of patentable software. so does mp3 format. iTunes sales/distribution model does not. online shopping and shopping carts have existed long before. currently i am working on a php script that reads my iTunes xml file and presents file metadata to the browser. later i plan to add ability to update the info through password protected page. probably no one has thought of it before this. but the idea or implementation does not involve enough innovation to be patentable. just because i am the first one to implement a way to doing something does not mean that the implementation is patentable.

    3. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by MemoryDragon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The once you have seen it and then it is obvious argument has been brought to the table ad nauseum, and no I do not buy it. First of all most patents filed have prior art to a big degree, secondly, what has happened in the recent past is that everything under the earth has been patented, third, once you face a problem and bring it in front of 100 guys to solve it 20 of those probably at the same time will find the most obvious way. So obvious really is obvious in most cases!

    4. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      total utter bullshit.
      Granting patents because the prior art is buried somewhere the patent office does not have access to is the problem. There is a patent by microsoft on allocating recently run threads on incoming I/O. is it something no body ever did? It is just that somebody did it but the prior art can't be brought out until microsoft sues somebody with the prior art.

    5. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by mpe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Same with a lot of software patents. Yes, when you look at them, they seem totally brainlessly obvious. But then why hadn't anyone thought of it until that point? Why did the idea not exist, or at the very least have a patent pending? Because until someone sat down and thought of how to best implement something, it simply hadn't been thought of seriously until then.

      Or maybe the first 10-100 people to think of it either thought it was so obvious that it wasn't worth trying to patent it or they wern't in the "patent everything" frame of mind. The problem with the issue of "obvious" is that it tends to be poorly documented...

    6. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by DMiax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's also the inverse procedure: everyone thinks something is obvious then comes One that says "it is not!" then patents it, despite the fact that he did not invent it and it is common practice or technology.

      Am I the only one who remembers an attemp to patent the wheel?

      Or Microsoft patenting desktop pager and XML?

      Most patents do not even come from the guy that invented the technology, funded research, or at least used it!

    7. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by shutdown+-p+now · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Yes, when you look at them, they seem totally brainlessly obvious. But then why hadn't anyone thought of it until that point? Why did the idea not exist, or at the very least have a patent pending? Because until someone sat down and thought of how to best implement something, it simply hadn't been thought of seriously until then.
      No, more often it's because something is so obvious, any sane person (who does not happen to be a lawyer) wouldn't even think it is patentable.
    8. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But is it? Look at the battery problem mentioned in the article. Now we look and say duh, of course it makes sense to wrap batteries in a metal cylinder. But until that point no one had thought of doing it. The solution stared at them in the face, but no one ever sat down to think it through.
      So one guy has a brain fart and now he can sit on his ass and impede human civilisation because of it? What ever happened to trade secrets? Copyright?

      Patents are not about encouraging "innovative" ideas. They are not about rewarding research. They are about granting monopolies to people who grease enough palms. That was their original purpose, and that, beneath all the layers of bullshit, is still their purpose now. To grant monopoly; unrestricted, pure and total.

      If you believe otherwise, then the marketo-psychic dominator troop have earned their pay today.
      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    9. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Purity+Of+Essence · · Score: 1

      Bingo! Give that man a cigar!

      --
      +0 Meh
    10. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by eklitzke · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with you completely.

      The amount of things that we take for granted is just enormous. Let me explain. Right now you are undoubtedly using a multitasking operating system, meaning that you can run more than one process at once. It is really non-obvious that such a thing is even possible, let alone can be done efficiently. For those of you who don't know how it is done (and I bet even on Slashdot, most people do not), how would you overcome this problem? How are you going to make sure that once the kernel gives a time slice to an application, the application will give it back? How are you going to make sure the application doesn't corrupt the location in memory the kernel resides on?

      Here is another, more basic example: writing. Homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years all over the globe, and only a handful independently discovered written language. To us it seems perfectly obvious that you can express spoken words in some sort of symbolic form and preserve it as writing, but this is not an obvious concept.

      Let me take the writing example one step further: what is the most obvious way to write a language? With pictographs/ideographs. Each word is its own character. The idea that you can express this written language purely with phonetic components is really a novel concept, even to me, a native English speaker.

      I am a math major, so my final example will be from that realm. Think about high school algebra. What does f(x) = x^2 look like? A parabola, right? That idea is a very recent development in mathematics (within the past few hundred years). The idea that you can do the opposite -- express geometric relations in algebraic terms -- was equally as innovative. To us it is obvious that you can interpret algebraic functions as curves or lines, that you can write a formula to express the area of something, and that you can draw mathematical structures. But these things are *not* obvious!

      The idea that I am driving at here is that there are many, many things that we consider obvious that clearly aren't. While I feel that many patents clearly are obvious, and that there is a considerable amount of patent abuse in the system at the present with respect to obvious patents (my current employer comes to mind...), it is really, really hard to say what is obvious and what is not when you have hindsight. If you were a programmer and only coded in C your whole career, do you really think that you would be able to come up with the idea of an object oriented language? Or the idea of automatic garbage collection? When someone comes up with a truly novel idea they deserve to be able to patent it. And while there is a lot of abuse in the patent system, I suspect that in many, many cases things that are now considered obvious were considered revolutionary at the time of their invention.

      --
      #include ".signature"
    11. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by bytta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are many kinds of patents.
      1. A simple (or complicated) way that works in solving some problem or is useful in some way, e.g. Metal wrapping for batteries.
      2. An obvious amalgam of earlier inventions, that does not really solve any problems, e.g. knork (which is just a modified http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastry_fork anyway )
      3. A relatively simple idea (often a rip-off of earlier ideas) wrapped in obscurity just to make it open enough to make everyone cough up some money for using it. E.g. "Click to buy"
      4. etc...

      To me - only category 1 is "inventions", and to me, only "inventions" are patentable.
      Most software patents mentioned on /. go into category 3 - some are in cat 1.

    12. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The thing is, ideas aren't patentable. Methods are. The test for obviousness should be, given the specs, can another programmer come up with the same implementation. For example, if someone said "invent a system that allows one-click purchasing", and the programmer can come up with the method described in the patent, the patent should be invalid as obvious. On the otherhand, if you say "an algorithm for compressing audio data", and the programmer can't derive MP3 compression, then that should be a valid patent. Note that patents don't cover the idea, just the method. A patent on "a method for compressing audio data" doesn't stop any other compression scheme - just the particular one outlined in the patent. Of course, bundled with this needs to be a way of preventing submarine patens a la UNISYS' LZW/GIF.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    13. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by MooUK · · Score: 1

      I've used a fork as a knife occasionally for years. I've seen sporks with a flat/sharper edge for cutting. So, yes, definitely not new.

    14. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by mark-t · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem with patenting methods that are implemented by software, however, is that all algorithms are simply logical steps... the fact that these steps are simulated at an abstract level within the cpu cycles of a computer is irrellevant, logic is an intrinsically mental construct, and they are ultimately just mental steps that ultimately involve no more than the appropriate sequence of logical AND, OR, and NOT operations on binary digits. Mental steps are not supposed to be patentable, so algorithms, regardless of how innovative they may be, should not be patentable. Software is copyrightable anyways, so the idea of patent protection should even at best be superfluous.

    15. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You could say the same about any physical invention; after all, an internal combustion engine is just a series of interactions between fundamental physical forces, just as an algorithm is just a series of logical operations. A physical device involves transforming and moving energy between its components, an algorithm applied to a computer involves shunting electricity around various gates.

      Copyright and patents don't offer the same type of protection, so saying algorithms are adequately protected by copyright isn't really accurate. For example, if someone copyrighted their MP3-encoding code, and I got my hands on it, I could implement the same algorithm in a totally different language, and it wouldn't be violating their copyright. Copyright protects a particular instance of a program, a patent protects the general principle. At the moment, there are implementational problems with both systems (insufficient obvious-testing for patents, infinite extensions for copyrights), but I don't see any fundamental reason why an algorithm should be treated differently from a physical invention, as long as it is sufficiently innovative, sufficiently non-obvious, and a working example is provided.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    16. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Duncan3 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, everything on /. is usually in

      #4. In widespread use for 10-20 years before the patent was filed.

      --
      - Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
    17. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Bloke+down+the+pub · · Score: 1
      What does f(x) = x^2 look like? A parabola, right? That idea is a very recent development in mathematics (within the past few hundred years).
      If Pythagoras' Theorem isn't a link between algebra and geometry, I don't know what it is. And it was around before he lived, which was two thousand years ago. Last few hundred years my arse.
      --
      It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
    18. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by idlake · · Score: 1

      Most patents, especially for software, are obvious after the fact. Programmers look and say, man, that's so obvious!

      Actually, the usual case for software patents in my experience is that people say "hey, I have been using that for years, how in the world can anybody get a patent on that".

      Furthermore, granting someone a patent costs society a lot; we should err on the side of granting too few patents, not too many, and the burden of proof that something is "unobvious" should be on the person filing the patent.

      Ask anyone who has submitted a patent application whether they felt their patent was frivolous. I imagine you'd find the vast majority of them holding the belief that they did something novel.

      I actually have a bunch of patents. I applied for them because my employer required it, and my employer required it for trading with other companies. I think the patent system should be changed so that what I hold patents on shouldn't be patentable. At the same time, I think my patents are better than the great majority of patents that are currently being granted.

      I've invented a bunch of things since then, which I think are considerably more useful. I still haven't patented, simply because there has been no point: as an individual inventor, patents wouldn't have helped me at all, and the cost of getting them is high.

      The patent system is broken; it doesn't help people who invent things, it only helps lawyers and big companies that want to keep new competitors out of the market.

    19. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Well, if you just translated it, it would be a derived work, and fall under copyright.
      If you implemented it from scratch from a mathematical description of the procedure, it should be fair game, irregardless of language.
      The mathematical algorithm can't be patented. That should imply that you can freely encode mp3 with a blackboard and a lot of spare time. Thus you should also be able to do the calculation with a straight-forward implementation on a computer.

    20. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by mavenguy · · Score: 1

      This story is a dupe but I'll comment further. I'll also make my standard disclaimer when discussing patents: I am not a patent attorney, but I am a former patent examiner.

      The point you make is known in the patent biz as "hindsight", and is commonly argued by patent applicants against rejections based on obviousness ( 35 USC 103). This, of course, is the crux of this issue;given a patent claim and a set of pieces of "prior art", no one of which describes the invention in the claim (which would render the claim unpatentable for lack of novelty (i. e., "anticipation") under 35 USC 102) how does one apply the law to render a conclusion. Of course, there's one additional factor, beyond mere descriptive disclosure of the "process, machine, manufacture, or composition of matter" (35 USC 101) claimed, and that is the mythical "person having ordinary skill in the art to which said subject matter pertains". In infringement cases, where there's real money involved ( the patentee/licensee and/or the accused infringer markets), expert witnesses can give testimony for either side in addition to the prior art entered as evidence.

      In the PTO during application prosecution, on the other hand, there is no access to expert opinions for the examiner. On average an examiner has on the order of 15-20 hours to work on a typical application (varies by examiner's level and the art he/she is assigned). This includes all handling of the application from initially reading it, searching for prior art, formulating actions, reading and responding to amendments and arguments presented by applicant, reading applicant's appeal brief and writing an examiner's answer in those cases where applicant appeals the examiner's rejection to the PTO's appeal board, etc. In this environment, the level of ordinary skill in the art must derive from the prior art references, themselves, and any conclusion of obviousness must derive from what the prior art references show.

      The determination, thus, rests with determining whether the things shown in one reference would be applicable to be used in another. In th past, patent examiners were often given great weight in making such judgments, although they had to be supported by some kind of reasoning. However, over the last few years under the judicial oversight of the PTO's appeal court, the previous Court of Customs and Patent Appeals (CCPA), now the Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit (CAFC) the ability of examiners to make such determinations has been limited, with the Court demanding that more and more of the rationale be expressly stated in the prior art themselves. If you assumed that, in each case, that the absolute best prior art has been developed this would tend to decrease the number of rejections that could be sustained, since even expert testimony would be questioned for not supporting their conclusions, or being biased, that is, the expert is using hindsight to reconstruct the invention and this is the main reason the case is before the SCOTUS. In the PTO there is the additional burden of increased searching to find "better" prior art; references that would be perfectly fine in supporting rejections made under the environment of years ago will no longer provide such support; the haystack gets larger (more and more prior art heaps on as time progresses) and the available suitable needles get fewer and fewer.

      The legal requirements derived and applied by the CAFC have not previously been tested by the SCOTUS; the leading case, which the CAFC has used as part of its legal reasoning, is GRAHAM v. JOHN DEERE CO. which, while setting out a ser

    21. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by hey! · · Score: 1

      Most patents, especially for software, are obvious after the fact. Programmers look and say, man, that's so obvious!


      I agree that is not a good test of obviousness.


      Yes, when you look at them, they seem totally brainlessly obvious. But then why hadn't anyone thought of it until that point?


      Usually because the conditions under which the solution is practical or necessary haven't occured up to that time. In the late 90s and earth 00s, there were a ton of software and business method patents of the form "use of wireless network for X", where "X" was something people had been doing all along. "X" had not been done wirelessly before becaue the digital wireless networks needed didn't have the requisite coverage or affordability.

      In fact, this technology squatting has lead the the phenomenon of the "intellectual property company". The business model is simple. Look at a technology that is rapidly maturing, and file a patent application for an obvious application of that technology just before it becomes practical. You get the patent, then await the wave of commercial applications of the "idea" that are certain to follow. Well after your victims have invested money and created a profitable products, you shake them down for a license fee.

      This is a form of intellectual property parasitism that depends on exactly the argument you are making: lack of prior art as evidence of non-obviousness. If that argument is true, then there is no need for a separate obviousness and prior art condition on granting patents. I would argue that in fact, lack of prior art has been improperly used as the sole test of non-obviousness. This confuses necessity with sufficiency, in effect the fallacy of confirming the consequent. If an invention is original, then there is no prior art; therefore [!!!] if there is no prior art, an invention is original. I see what I eat is the same as [!!!] I eat what I see.

      A better test of obviousness is whether, in a group of programmers faced with the same task but who have not seen the patent in question, the same solution comes up. This test could easily be used empirically. Hire a board of competent programmers who meet regularly to evaluate "problem statements". Their job is to create a number of possible approaches to solving the problem. If the prposed patent idea comes up, then it is "obvious".

      This test is only more practical and objective than somebody guessing whether they'd have thought of it themselves. It is not only better from a utilitarian justification of patents, it is even better under a property rights justification.

      If I have an aha moment, what moral claim do I have to own that idea? Only the claim that the idea is somehow a product of my unique character, unique experience, or both. To be sure, this is a weak claim, but let's allow it. If somebody else faced with the same problem has the same "aha", then it cannot be said to be a product of my uniqueness.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    22. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by ProppaT · · Score: 1

      The point you're missing is that some concepts are so simple that people do them and never think to copyright the idea/concept because it doesn't warrent a patent. Then someone, lets call him "Mr. Obvious," comes up and says "well hell, no one's patented this...lets see if it'll go through." Even though it's something obvious that people have been doing for ages, it goes through the patent office and this guy now has receives royalties on the idea for anyone who can't prove that they were doing this all along.

      It's true, a lot of things are obvious in hindsight, but a lot of things are also obvious from the getgo. One of the major problems is that patent offices don't always have knowledge required to make a ruling over whether a patent is legitamate or not.

      --
      Wise men say, "Forgiveness is divine, but never pay full price for late pizza."
    23. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Alioth · · Score: 1

      It's not really obviousness - it's got to be something that someone "ordinarily skilled in the art" wouldn't come up with. While how multitasking on a modern PC might not be obvious to the majority of people (possibly including yourself - applications on a modern OS do not give control back to the OS, the OS takes control back, that's why it's called pre-emptive multitasking), the idea of multitasking is probably pretty straightforward to anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of kernel development, or indeed anyone ordinarily skilled in the art of low-level programming on the machine architecture they are using (I'm hardly Super Programmer, but even I managed to make a simple pre-emptive multitasker on my Sinclair Spectrum as a teenager - once you understand IM2 on a Z80, and how the Spectrum hardware raises interrupts, then it's really not that much of a leap to make a simple multitasker. And looking back on it, my Z80 asm skills were actually very poor at the time, yet I could still concoct something that could time share a couple of programs).

      The trouble is (I think) that possibly patent examiners are considering software as just one field, so if it's not something that (for instance) an 'ordinarily skilled' web developer would come up with then it's something outside the ken of all 'ordinarily skilled in the art' software developers. The reality of modern software is completely different - there are many, many specialist fields. Many software patents are indeed obvious to those ordinarily skilled in the art for whatever specialization they do - but to someone with only general knowledge, look very innovative when they aren't.

    24. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The real point of patents is to encourage inventors to make their inventions public, with the understanding that they will be allowed to profit off them for a reasonable time, and then the public will own that invention, and it won't be lost as some random trade secret.

      The alternative to patents is not complete freedom of information, it's utter and complete secrecy. Companies would spend a fortune obfuscating their own code, and doing everything they could to prevent reverse engineering. You'd have to sign a hundred NDA's in order to get a contract to refill a soda machine at a big company.

      Not exactly a desirable course of events.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    25. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by hey! · · Score: 1

      Right now you are undoubtedly using a multitasking operating system, meaning that you can run more than one process at once. It is really non-obvious that such a thing is even possible, let alone can be done efficiently.

      I'm not sure this claim would hold up under historical examination.

      "Obvious" means "obvious to a normally skilled practicioner". Think about the problems of computer design in the 1950s and 1960s. Computers were built from discrete components, which made computers slow and costly. The combination of slow and costly means that every clock cycle of computation was, by modern standards, fabulously expensive. And it would be completely obvious to any ordinary practioner that an enormous number of CPU cycles are wasted by the computer during operations like IO. Since you've done everything you can to speed up the things the CPU is waiting on, the "obious" answer is to have it do something else useful.

      How to do this was far from obvious. That it should be done is, if you have read any of the literature of the history of computing, obvious.

      Here is another, more basic example: writing. Homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years all over the globe, and only a handful independently discovered written language. To us it seems perfectly obvious that you can express spoken words in some sort of symbolic form and preserve it as writing, but this is not an obvious concept.

      This is a curious choice for a straw man. I think nobody would disagree that had writing leapt from a single brain with no prior art at all, that would qualify as an act of originality. However like most very significant technologies, writing proceeded by a series of successive innovations, some of which were original, some of which were obvious extensions.

      A more interesting example could be made from a specific innovation within the development of writing. At one point it appears that trade deals were recorded by putting clay models representing the goods to be exchanged into a sealed earthenware container. However, it was not possible to confirm the contents ofthe vessel without breaking it and destroying the evidence. To avoid this problem, people began to scribe symbols on the outside of the container representing its contents. Eventually somebody realized that the contents of the vessel were redundant, and the modern contract was born.

      Was eliminating the contents of the vessel a non-obvious innovation? Certainly. Was it non-obvious? Well, there are two ways to look at it. Clearly it didn't occur to people right away, which argues for its non-obviousness. On the other hand, it seems likely that sooner or later somebody would come up with the idea.

      I am a math major, so my final example will be from that realm. Think about high school algebra. What does f(x) = x^2 look like? A parabola, right? That idea is a very recent development in mathematics (within the past few hundred years). The idea that you can do the opposite -- express geometric relations in algebraic terms -- was equally as innovative. To us it is obvious that you can interpret algebraic functions as curves or lines, that you can write a formula to express the area of something, and that you can draw mathematical structures. But these things are *not* obvious!

      That it is recent doesn't establish that it is non-obvious. The Greeks had very sophisticated mathematics covering both number theory and geometry. They methods very similar to those used in the calculus, so they were well aware of the connection between numbers and geometry. So why didn't they invent analytic geometry and calculus, having most of the raw materials? While Decartes was an original thinker, he surely does not hold a candle to Archimedes for mathematical originality, or even less towering figures such as Heron of Chios.

      One possibility is that they lacked all

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    26. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by sugarmotor · · Score: 1

      Well, most likely someone else would have thought of " wrapping batteries in a metal cylinder " -- There is hardly any effort involved in testing the idea either. So I don't think this is a good example.

      Stephan

      --
      http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
    27. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Jerf · · Score: 1

      I'm going to zig to every other replier's zag.

      Try this objection on for size: I'm supposed to be able to read a patent and implement the device. I recently saw Mythbusters do just that for a couple of old patents. But software patents by my estimate get you far less than 1% of the way to an implementation.

      A patent on the web would describe "a client machine that requests content from a server, and the server receives it." A series of further elaborations might be made mentioning that it could be cached, could travel over the internet, could travel wirelessly, etc.

      However, I guarantee you the patent won't contain anything like this, which is at least enough to implement it, even if it still only constitutes a specification with no code whatsoever. (That's the HTTP 1.1 RFC, so you don't have to follow the link.)

      There are a bare handful of patents this doesn't apply to, but all but one software patent I've ever read looks like this.

      The reason most patents seem so obvious is that the mere statement of a problem is hard to make interesting.

      The other basic problem is that to the extent that the difficult part is seeing a problem, many patents "patent" the only obvious solution. Realizing that people want a one-click checkout might be a good idea that nobody has. (Note the "might"; actually I think it's the obvious conclusion of a long refinement process of making checkout simpler, but maybe you disagree.) But once you say to me "Hey, I want a one-click checkout", the technical implementation is obvious. In fact, since there's only one basic way to do it it's actually even more obvious than a conventional checkout.

    28. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      In software new things mostly happen because of hardware getting cheaper. Cheaper hardware allows us to throw more resources (storage, memory, processor) at a problem that previously couldn't be solved with software due to cost.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    29. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by squiggleslash · · Score: 1

      I don't agree with you. I used to, but there's an issue with the argument. If it's simple, the chances are someone will think of it. Just because it's non-obvious doesn't mean that only the "inventor" would have thought of it independently. And if it's simple, the chances are that the majority of people who think of and use it will not believe it's patentable. And they'll rely upon that in their assumptions afterwards.

      And they'll get screwed. Because, as we all know, independent invention is not a defense against patent infringement. That's the entire point of patents. First past the post wins the game, even though most of us never realised there was a race or anything to win in the first place.

      The bigger problem isn't that the criteria for determining "obviousness" isn't narrow enough, it's that it's far too wide. Even programmers using what they think are advanced concepts are frequently using very obvious improvements upon existing techniques and concepts, or concepts that look like they're amazing new inventions when they're simply reflections of general technological advances. The most obvious, in my mind, is TiVo. It looks like an extraordinary new idea. Nothing like it existed before TiVo did it.

      Well, of course nothing like it existed before TiVo did it. Nobody was going to spend thousands of dollars on a low quality video recorder. TiVo came about almost immediately upon disk capacities and general compression techniques becoming suitable for producing a product in the $400 range that could record live video automatically in quantity, and could do a variety of very obvious things with that recording, including show it delayed to the user. Before the PVR, the technology to implement a PVR was too expensive.

      When you look at TiVo, you immediately realise that once the core concept - recording video onto a hard drive - is implemented, absolutely everything else - timers, pausing and rewinding live video, etc - are actually exactly what you'd get after playing with the design for a few days. They just follow on from the invention. You start by implementing something to do the recording, implementing obvious extensions of the VCR and computing technology like schedules. Then you think "Well, I don't want to actually wait until this is finished, can I start watching it now?" So you implement that, and implement the obvious features of being able to rewind and fast forward and pause up to the point at which it is recording. Then you play with that for a few days, and realise that there's no reason why the recorder can't be recording everything by default on the current tuner, so you can pause and rewind at any time, not just when you've prescheduled a recording.

      And lo, you have a very non-obvious looking invention where all you've done is actually follow the paths and the logic to its logical conclusion.

      Much of the "complex looking" patents today have to do with people determining what problems are going to need to be solved in the future, and then doing the research now. Usually the solutions are exactly what would have been invented when the problem was actually encountered, which means the patenter can then jump out and slap patent fees upon anyone who encounters the problem.

      What is the purpose of that reward? What did they add to society? If their entire model was based upon the notion that, in the future, when the problem is encountered, other people will solve the problem, independently, the same way, then how is their solution non-obvious? Is it non-obvious simply because they knew the problem would arise?

      In the end, the only conclusion you can draw is that patents are a farce. We need better ways of encouraging people to document their inventions. The kind of landgrabs that patents encourage are unhealthy, and they merely make the obvious more difficult.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    30. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      But, you see, that's not how patents actually work. These patent abusers ARE patenting the idea of "one click ordering", or "email over wireless", or "a pretty small keyboard you work with your thumbs", or (going old school) "longitudinal flight control of a powered aircraft". We're NOT talking about specific implementations. Any way of solving these problems has been deemed to be infringing on these various patents.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    31. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by mark-t · · Score: 1
      That should imply that you can freely encode mp3 with a blackboard and a lot of spare time
      Indeed.... in fact, you _can_.
    32. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      The solution stared at them in the face, but no one ever sat down to think it through.

      That's the key thing right there. If simply sitting down to think it through will (for a competent expert in the field) usually produce a given solution, that solution is obvious.

      Especially with software development, if you let every little creative step be patented, no-one will ever be able to do anything. By the standards of some of these patents, I come up with four or five amazing new inventions every time I sit down and write some code. I assure you - no possible simple combination of well known data structures with standard library functions is an invention. It doesn't become an invention when you add something common like a network, a database, or even both.

      It's like if a carpenter went to get a patent for using a nail to affix a piece of plastic to a piece of wood. "It's totally non-obvious, nails were designed to attach two pieces of wood!"

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    33. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      We have this thing called engineers. They are trained to solve this exact class of design problems. That's their job. If you call every little step they take in performing their job an "invention" and give the company that they work for a patent on it, well... that's absurd.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    34. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      You're wrong. Have a look at any patent, and after the abstract that gets everyone up in arms, there's a specific list of claims that actually specify what is being patented. And those claims always specify a method - even stupid ones like the "swinging sideways on a swing" patent. If you do the same thing, but don't do just one of the steps mentioned in the patent, you're not infringing.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    35. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      Right now you are undoubtedly using a multitasking operating system, meaning that you can run more than one process at once. It is really non-obvious that such a thing is even possible, let alone can be done efficiently.

      Its non obvious? when looking at a program as a stream of instructions, it just becomes a special case of multiplexing, which might have been non obvious at some point, but has been in use in for example the telecom industry since long before computers had enough memory and cpu power to make multitasking something worth considering.

      For those of you who don't know how it is done (and I bet even on Slashdot, most people do not), how would you overcome this problem? How are you going to make sure that once the kernel gives a time slice to an application, the application will give it back? How are you going to make sure the application doesn't corrupt the location in memory the kernel resides on?

      When I first tried to implement a form of multitasker I was 14 and all I was familiar with was a 6510 cpu in a C64 computer, and while the solution to protecting memory was obvious, it was not possible to implement it on that a C64 because it did not support a usefull way to manipulate memory addressing. Later on a C128 which had a mmu (abeit a very limited one), this became a bit easier, but it still lacked full memory protection.

      While my multitasker lacked any kind of priority management, the concept of a run queue and using some kind of timed interupt mechanism to take back control were basicly the first thing that came to mind for getting multiple programs running.

      Sure, someone came up with the idea first, and at the time, the usefullness of it was not entirely clear, and while the basic concepts are pretty simple, implementing them in a usefull way is not. Also, making a usefull multitasker involves a few other problems that are less easy to solve (scheduling and priority management for example).

      Multitasking existed way before anyone thought of the uses it might have on 'personal computers' if only because at the time personal computers were non existant, so the multitasking you are using on your pc is merely a new application of a pre-existing idea.

      As with many developments in software, implementation happened after it became a realistic option with regards to existing hardware. It became in widespread use when an actual application turned up that made it usefull, till then it had been somewhat of a solution looking for a problem.

      This is related to one of the imho biggest issues with 'software patents'. It is very cheap and easy to try many different things on a computer, which makes that many things are tried just to see what happens, and without having an intended application. This makes that many new ideas that turn up come in the form of discoveries, not inventions.

    36. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Um, no, I'm not. Go read about Glenn Curtiss and the Wright Brothers, and then we can have a discussion on the topic.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    37. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by 5pp000 · · Score: 1

      Ask anyone who has submitted a patent application whether they felt their patent was frivolous. I imagine you'd find the vast majority of them holding the belief that they did something novel.

      Yes, but in the software field, that belief is likely to be mistaken. A colleague of mine and I once interviewed a senior IBM engineer for a position at the startup we work for. He described a patent he held for a memory allocation technique. Both my colleague and I, being familiar with the garbage collection literature, knew immediately of prior art dating back to the late 1970's. The technique we were thinking of is not in any sense obscure -- in fact it is now used in practically all production-quality collectors for languages other than C/C++ -- but this senior IBM engineer was nonetheless, evidently, entirely unaware of it. My colleague and I were unimpressed by his ignorance of such fundamental work, but our opinion of him aside, the fact is that software is a vast field and one can't begin to keep track of all of it.

      I like what someone else here posted: a big part of the problem is that there is a burden of proof on the PTO to show that an invention is obvious, but there is no burden of proof on the applicant to show that it is nonobvious. In the case of the metal cylinder around the battery, the fact that no solution previously existed despite the economic importance of the problem counts as objective evidence of nonobviousness. Absent such evidence, I think the law should tell the PTO to take the safe course and reject the patent.

      --
      Your god may be dead, but mine aren't!
    38. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not with a computer, though. Because as we all know, everything is novel and nonobvious when done on a computer.

    39. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      What about it? Their patent described a method for constructing a flying machine. They didn't patent the concept of flying machines, they patented a specific method of creating a flying machine. Part of the patent office's job is to ensure that the claims of a patent are sufficiently narrow. You can argue as to whether or not the patent office is doing its job properly, but it reamins that, conceptually, patents are for specific methods and not general concepts.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    40. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      You clearly have no understanding of how this actually played out. The Wright Brothers patent was held to cover any mechanism of controlling an aircraft about its longitudinal (roll) axis. You can't have an airplane without roll control. Glenn Curtiss used a completely different (and arguably superior) technique that you might have heard of: It's called an aileron. The Wrights twisted the entire wing structure to provide (poor) roll control. The mechanisms were completely different, but the Wright's patent still very nearly put Curtiss out of business, until the US Gov't nationalized the Wrights' patent in the run-up to World War I, since the Wright aircraft were no longer state of the art, and they weren't interested in developing more advanced models.

      So, again, you're mistaken.

      "conceptually, patents are for specific methods and not general concepts"

      Concept != reality.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    41. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Except they weren't patenting roll control, they were patenting a method for creating a flying machine. One of their claims in that patent was a method of controlling the plane by adjusting angle of the wing. General concept: roll control. Method: adjusting the angle of the wing. They patented a method. It might have been too general, but it was still a method, not a concept. If Curtiss had found a way to implement roll control that didn't involve changing the angle of the wing, it wouldn't have been an issue.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    42. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why did the idea not exist, or at the very least have a patent pending?

      Because patents cost MONEY. $5,000 to $10,000 per software patent. Does everyone have cash like that lying around in a sock? I sure as hell don't. If you'd like to share, feel free to send me some. So gee, no wonder those free software coders aren't busy patenting obvious things. Monied patent lawyers are busily patenting the obvious, let someone to the hard work of actually manufacturing the obvious, and then suing them for a cut when "no shit Sherlock" sells. Then they have the absolute gall to bitch and moan when the Chinese produce it without paying them.

    43. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      "If Curtiss had found a way to implement roll control that didn't involve changing the angle of the wing"

      He did.

      "it wouldn't have been an issue."

      It was.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    44. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Ailerons still involve changing the angle the wing presents to the air. It wasn't.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    45. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      *sigh*

      No.

      Ailerons change the camber of a section of wing, changing its coefficient of lift. That does not directly change the angle of attack of the wing. (I make the generous assumption that you a) know what angle of attack is, and b) are in fact talking about angle of attack when you say "angle the wing presents to the air")

      You are arguing with somebody who has a much better theoretical, practical, and historical understanding of this topic than you do. You really ought to either a) stop arguing and start asking intelligent questions, or b) give up and argue with somebody more poorly informed.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    46. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Assuming your sig is true, you probably do know more about aerodynamics than me. I've been getting my information from Wikipedia, which states:

      "The technique of wing-warping is described, but the patent explicitly states that wing-warping need not be the only method that could be employed to vary the angle presented to the air by the outer portions of a machine's wings. The concept of varying the angle near the wingtips, by whatever means, is central to the patent. The broad protection intended by this language was important in the patent infringement lawsuits the Wrights brought and won against Glenn Curtiss and other early aviators who adopted ailerons while the Wrights continued to use wing-warping."

      I don't think the "angle the wing presents to the air" (I got the phraseology straight from Wikipedia) is talking about the angle of attack; I think it's talking about the angle of any part of the wing which interacts with the air - which would pretty much cover any change in the shape of the wing. Granted, that claim is fairly general, and maybe the patent office was wrong to approve a patent with such general claims. Maybe they should have restricted it to wing-warping only. But the claim is still for a method (controlling an aircraft by changing the shape of a wing), not a concept (controlling an aircraft). You can't patent an idea ("hey, let's make a flying machine", or "hey, let's compress audio data") and prevent anyone else from doing the same. You have to patent a method of implementing your idea, and only that method, not the idea is patented.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    47. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      Yes, my .sig is true. Yes, I know more about aerodynamics than the average bear. Yes, the angle of attack is the angle that the air meets the airfoil section. No, reading a Wikipedia article does not make you well versed enough on this topic to refute my argument.

      "You can't patent an idea ("hey, let's make a flying machine", or "hey, let's compress audio data") and prevent anyone else from doing the same."

      You keep saying that, and I keep telling you that that is demonstrably not true. The historical precedent I cite (Wright Bros. and Glenn Curtiss) is the specific example about which I know the most, but other examples from recent history are even more obvious (see RIM vs. NTP, RIM vs. Palm, Amazon's one-click, etc.)

      You are talking about the way patent law might should wanna oughtta be. I am talking about historical realities.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    48. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      You keep saying that, and I keep telling you that that is demonstrably not true. The historical precedent I cite (Wright Bros. and Glenn Curtiss) is the specific example about which I know the most, but other examples from recent history are even more obvious (see RIM vs. NTP, RIM vs. Palm, Amazon's one-click, etc.)

      None of those other examples demonstrate your point at all. Look at the one-click patent here. It consists of a series of steps that must be followed in order for this patent to apply. The client provides the server with personal information. The server provides the client with a unique identifier. The system associates the identifier with the information the client provides. When the client places an order, it also transmits the identifier, and an order is made using stored client details.

      If any of those steps doesn't match, the patent doesn't apply. For instance, if instead of the system generating a unique ID, I had a system that used a username picked by the client to implement a one-click purchase, the patent wouldn't apply. The concept of a "one-click purchase" wasn't patented, a particular way of doing it was. You can still make a one-click system, as long as you do it differently. (This patent is still stupid, because it's an obvious method, but that's neither here nor there).

      The same is true of the RIM/NTP patent case - their patent wasn't for "wireless email" it was for a method of providing wireless email. Email to wireless devices was around long before either patent - it was the method of pushing email to a mobile device (rather than periodic polling) that was patented.

      In my limited understanding of the Wright/Curtiss case, this is also true - the patent covered a means of implementing roll control, not the concept of roll control. It may have been that their method is the only known way to implement roll control (I don't know), and it may have been that their claim (changing the shape of the wing) was too broad and should have been narrowed (to indicate changing shape of the wing by wing-warping, rather than a blanket-covering of all methods of changing the shape of the wing). It may be a stupid patent in light of its application to aerodynamics, but it still only covered an implementation and not a concept, even if that implementation is the only known way to implement that concept.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
    49. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by Moofie · · Score: 1

      There is no way for me to argue this with you. I'm done.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    50. Re:The issue is obviousness *before the fact* by 644bd346996 · · Score: 1
      ... Right now you are undoubtedly using a multitasking operating system, meaning that you can run more than one process at once. It is really non-obvious that such a thing is even possible, let alone can be done efficiently.
      As others have stated, the idea of multitasking or multithreading is obvious and stems from a desire to use computer time more efficiently. From there, it is not a problem of whether it is possible to implement. The only challenge it to design the system such that multitasking software can be written for it.
      For those of you who don't know how it is done (and I bet even on Slashdot, most people do not), how would you overcome this problem? How are you going to make sure that once the kernel gives a time slice to an application, the application will give it back?
      Obviously, a timer can be used to suspend the current task and return control to the kernel. The CPU only needs to know how long to let the current task run and where to jump to when the time is up.
      How are you going to make sure the application doesn't corrupt the location in memory the kernel resides on?
      Give the CPU a table of which regions of memory are read-only when it is not in supivisor mode. There are dozens of obvious ways to implement such a table.

      I think that many of the advances in computer science are obvious advances. The field has developed in a relatively short timespan, and at a quick pace. But when you look closely, most of the progress is just standardization on ways of doing things. Once the idea of a struct is widespread, it is inevitable that somebody will want to bundle common operations with the struct. Hence, OOP. Deciding on the proper terminology, syntax, and metaphors is the hard part, but that can't be patented.

  3. Well, maybe.... by djupedal · · Score: 1

    Like most actions that measure, while things look tidy on paper, applying them is where the trouble shows up.

    As the example going begging here....just who gets to decide what constitutes 'obviousness'...?

    Because at the end of the day, we're going to be left with only those things that are SO obvious they don't need to be pointed out, and there goes the process.

    "One man's window is another man's door...one man's ceiling is another man's floor - one man's princess is another man's whore."

    1. Re:Well, maybe.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the problem is that rights on information are doomed to sink in various problems
      interpretation of information depends not only on its sender but on its reciever also
      if u dont understand chinese the text in chinese would be not obvious to you but simultaniously it would be plain clear to someone from China.

      same data can have multiple interpretation
      one single interpretation can be encoded in multiple ways

      i've heard ppl translating gene information into music and listening to it. Is that paticular big number a 'gene code' or a 'music file' ? It depends on interpreting program. Ultimitly our brain is interpreting program as well and each of us has its own

    2. Re:Well, maybe.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Asking for the status quo to be kept for those gaming the system is not an argument. Gaming is the right word, or perhaps gamboling suggests a rollback should occur.

      The court should toss out parasitic variations, moreso if one or more main ingredients are already patented.

      Patent a 'Vegiburger' or Mysteryburger because hamburger was already taken, reduces to the same- something edible between bread.
      Pedal = foot operated lever, analog, digital or wire, its a pedal.
      Thinking about this, adding explosives, spikes or cuffs to get car thieves is obvious, as is a vibrating massager.

      If ten subject matter experts were emailed or polled on 'is this obvious'; that is enough. If a patent references 20 prior inventions, that each references anoher 20 - is 1/401th originality deserving of anything?

      Time some truths were told, and ego's deflated.

  4. This is the only hope to strengthen patents by houstonbofh · · Score: 1

    We so desperately need this! When you can get a patent on anything, it makes patents in general worth less. This is why companies now collect them as armor. Hopefully the court will make them much harder to get. The effect will make the patents that are granted much more valuable. No truly innovative company can be against this. IP lawsuit companies on the other hand...

    1. Re:This is the only hope to strengthen patents by jbourj · · Score: 1

      Well, you're point is so obvious it hardly deserves consideration at the patent office.

    2. Re:This is the only hope to strengthen patents by donaldm · · Score: 1

      I agree that patent reform is way overdue but unfortunately there are too many corporations who will oppose it. A simple example of how a lawyer will present his client's case to a Judge is to question what is "Obviousness" and I can see this dragging on for years until these people get sick and tired of the money they will be given to oppose fairer patents.

      A good start would be to abolish any patents based on maths and logic (ie. software) but again there are far to many companies that would feel threatened by this.

      I think the the following end quote from the article says it all. Read "valuable" as "mutually assured destruction".

      "I don't think U.S. industry is going to stand for a huge cloud being placed on their valuable patent portfolio," said Mossinghoff, the former patent commissioner.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
  5. How about getting rid of patents all together... by hritcu · · Score: 1

    At least for Software it would make a whole lot of sense.

    --
    If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough. (Alan Kay)
  6. Why even allow any patents? by Karganeth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Patents have no point to them. I'm surprised that they're still around, because all they do is help companies create a monopoly over a product. The market suffers and the consumer suffers. There is less competition, which means the company owning the patent doesn't have to make it's product so much better. The only possible upside is that it would give inventors an incentive to invent things. Though why not just give them say 10% of what the product makes for the next 5 years or some other similar system?

    1. Re:Why even allow any patents? by moreon · · Score: 1

      Well, consider the drug industry. It takes, on average, 800 million to produce a new prescription drug. Plenty of research money ends up going down the drain without a marketable product to show for it. You need to give producers huge incentives (read: profit), to take on huge risks.

    2. Re:Why even allow any patents? by langelgjm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Patents have no point to them. I'm surprised that they're still around, because all they do is help companies create a monopoly over a product.

      That is exactly the point - a government enforced monopoly for a limited period of time. Without patents, any company could just come along and rip off your design, into which you poured time and money with R&D, and begin selling it, most likely undercutting you on the cost, since you are trying to make up your expenses.

      The problem is not the idea of patents - in theory, at least to me, they seem like a decent and necessary idea. The problem is that not all industries are the same, and current patent law is outdated for the software industry. What we need is for legislators to wake up and realize that a one-law-fits-all approach does not work.

      --
      "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
    3. Re:Why even allow any patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      patents had a point when they were first conceptualized. patents served two purposes: (1) grant the inventor a fixed amount of period of monopoly to recover the cost of investment in research (2) forced competitors to figure out new ways thereby encouraged innovation. this was until they started being abused. big companies now patent things to suck out every last possible penny from the market instead of stopping when enough has been gained to recoup research investment + to fund future research + operating costs. that's what is stifling innovation now. a lot of smart people just don't have enough money to get a license to use the patented thing. they have enough to get a couple of licenses but usually a significant work will require twenty licenses which is not affordable for most guys doing independent tinkering.

    4. Re:Why even allow any patents? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      It takes, on average, 800 million to produce a new prescription drug.

      This is not an inherent problem in such development. This is a problem that is a consequence of laws that require the drug companies to go through a series of very expensive, and often superfluous, steps. If they were allowed more leeway in producing drugs, and consumers were allowed more leeway in the choices they made about consuming drugs, a great deal of these costs would disappear. It is also a consequence of drug companies being vulnerable to litigation; part of a drug's development cost is the potential liability. Again, this is actually a legal problem, not an actual cost problem.

      You can compare this to the FCC's "type acceptance" requirements for starting a radio station. To do it the way the FCC requires, it costs about 100,000.00 to start a relatively low power FM station. Not counting the license. However, using carefully selected equipment and engineering skill, a radio station of higher quality, higher power, greater reliability and far less cost — just a few thousand dollars, certainly less than 1/10th the cost — can be put into service. The catch? It is illegal, of course. And of course, if you were willing to give up a few things — a bit of power, a bit of signal to noise at the audio input end, perhaps a little less sophisticated radiation pattern — the whole thing can be done for about $100.00 without interfering with anyone else in any way. Except for the government's interfering with the whole thing, of course.

      Anyway, back to drugs: Every time someone dies from X, where drugs for X are unavailable due to being deep into some FDA testing protocol, the point is made again. And ignored again. Also, the extended time frames for drug development are in many ways legal problems — submit form A to department B and wait for time T to proceed to the next step.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    5. Re:Why even allow any patents? by pakar · · Score: 1

      Well, change the patent-rules a little bit then.

      - Patents are valid for 3 years or until they have made a profit of more than 3 times the research-cost.
      - After 3 years it's the patent-holders responsebility to prove that they have not made more profit than 3 times the investment-cost.
      - At the patent-application they need to specify the research-cost, and if they are caught specifying higher numbers they would have to fine the specified amount.
      - If someone claims prior-art of a patent to the patent-office it's up to the patent-holder to prove that they where first. Not the other way around as it sounds to be today.

      This way we would offer the 'best' of 2 worlds. Patents for simple ideas expire quite fast but the more costly can be in effect for quite some time, and maybe even longer than they are today.

      I think a variation of this idea would give the companies the incentive to continue developing new things while still keeping the most rediciolus patents out of the patent-system, or atleast flush them out as fast as possible.

    6. Re:Why even allow any patents? by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

      It takes, on average, 800 million to produce a new prescription drug

      Only because the CEO of Eli Lily expects to take home almost $10 Mil a year http://www.investor.reuters.wallst.com/stocks/Offi cerProfile.asp?rpc=66&symbol=LLY&ID=28536
      The CEO of Wyeth expects to take home more than $5 Mil a year http://www.investor.reuters.wallst.com/stocks/Offi cerProfile.asp?rpc=66&symbol=WYE&ID=57228
      The CEO of Merck expects to take home almost $3 Mil a year http://www.investor.reuters.wallst.com/stocks/Offi cerProfile.asp?rpc=66&symbol=MRK&ID=136257
      The CEO of Pfizerexpects to take home over $3 Mil a year http://www.investor.reuters.wallst.com/stocks/Offi cerProfile.asp?rpc=66&symbol=PFE&ID=200397

      When the top executives account for such a sizable percentage (1 man takes home more than 1% of that $800 million) of the development costs, is it any wonder the costs are so high.

    7. Re:Why even allow any patents? by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      Why do people mod these comments up? How do these people see straight past all the good things about patents? I mean, it's kinda like abandoning your house because your TV is broken.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    8. Re:Why even allow any patents? by pipatron · · Score: 1

      That's because people like us has done a bit of research about patents, and how it affects invention and advance in technology.

      --
      c++; /* this makes c bigger but returns the old value */
  7. My simple "obviousness" test: by Jesrad · · Score: 1, Interesting

    My test is: get three experts in the field of application of the patent, have them read the title of the patent. If any of them guesses the method employed in the patent, send the application to the bin.

    On a more serious note, patents shouldn't be checked for "obviousness", they should be checked for ingenuity instead.

    --
    Maybe we deserve this world ?
    1. Re:My simple "obviousness" test: by Karthikkito · · Score: 1

      So just use ambiguous titles?

    2. Re:My simple "obviousness" test: by gsslay · · Score: 1

      They can't use that test. I thought of it first, I have a patent on it and they're not using it until I get paid.

    3. Re:My simple "obviousness" test: by MooUK · · Score: 1

      Don't they already do that with the entire patent?

      I wonder... How well would the following work?

      If your patent is ambiguous, confusing, and not clear as to what it refers (and I don't mean just to patent lawyers), it should be legally interpreted as meaning the least beneficial thing to the filers.

    4. Re:My simple "obviousness" test: by ralphdaugherty · · Score: 1


            So the test for obviousness isn't obvious?

        rd

  8. Better still, a test for dupes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Maybe the Supreme Court could hand down some judgment on duplicate stories on Slashdot? Like this one: http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/11/26/0719254.shtml from Sunday...

  9. Lionel Huts by poormanjoe · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    "You have some people in industry who say, 'Oh, come on--you've got to be kidding me," said Timothy Teter, a partner in the intellectual property practice at the firm Cooley Godward Kronish in Palo Alto, Calif. "This is something we wouldn't ever bother to write down because it's obvious, and we're in a fast-moving field."

    Obvious is something for the court to decide, but fast-moving field? So fast someone can't be contracted to document what you are doing at 70-80 words per minute. Or better yet voice recgonition.

    Can you imagine a wolrd without lawyers?

    --
    I want to be retired when I grow up.
    1. Re:Lionel Huts by toejam316 · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I cant even imagine what a Wolrd is. Maybe a deformed walrus? Only time will tell...

    2. Re:Lionel Huts by bcross · · Score: 1

      voice recognition?.. thats just too obvious! :-)

  10. Easy money by tttonyyy · · Score: 5, Funny

    1. Patent "obviousness" test algorithm
    2. Collect royalties recursively from patent office
    3. PROFIT!

    --
    biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
    1. Re:Easy money by DigitAl56K · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately there is already too much recursive prior art. See here.

    2. Re:Easy money by tttonyyy · · Score: 1
      Unfortunately there is already too much recursive prior art. See here.
      You've overflowed my stack, you insensitive clod!
      --
      biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
  11. Obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If someone invents a mouse with a button on it.....the first guy to put 2 buttons on it should NOT be able to pattent the idea. The software industry has been flooded with pointless pattents that don't require the least bit of ingenuity.... Like that pattent for the URL: Hello, has anyone ever heard of a file path?

    We all know that the Pattent & Trademark Office has let some ludicrous things be pattented lately.

    1. Re:Obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what about a man, who puts a scrollwheel there?

    2. Re:Obvious? by salec · · Score: 1

      What about me :), thinking of foot-mouse (slipper-mouse, pedal-mouse, ...) so disabled people can use it (or people with both hands - we can keep them on keyboard all the time)? It would be a sort of computer mouse (a pointing device), only suitable to be operated (slided) by foot, over the floor, or over a special surface or mat instead of over the desktop.

      Now, I don't think obviousness is measurable. "Foot mouse" IS VERY OBVIOUS, it just never (AFAIK) came to a mind (I admit, I taught of it this instant) and into a product.

      Perhaps better patent validity criteria would be: "how useful the invention is (why is it better and what good comes from using it - savings, quality, etc...)" and "what (equivalent) amount of worth (money, time, work) should patent protect (the very point of patents - protecting investments in research)".

      Besides, patents should be revocable if patent holder does not use it for the good of the public and his own but instead use it to fend off progress by sitting on it and not producing workable products offered to the public (i.e. a producer patenting better or competing product for the sole purpose of stopping others from developing better class of products that would put end to their product or industry, i.e. : energy efficient light bulb, electric car, ... etc. ).

      Is there a "proper" way to ensure your idea will stay patent-free without patenting it (provided it hasn't already been patented by somebody else)? I have heard about "prior art" but how do you make it ? Post idea in "classified ads"? Mail it to Patent Office and get a receipt? How come ideas from Sci Fi get patented (by readers) when there is prior art? Does prior art have to be in the form of a patent application? Are algorithms in Free Software code automatically prior art against patenting them subsequently even though they are not formally described as such?

    3. Re:Obvious? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, Arthur C. Clarke stopped any possibility of patents on geosynchronous satellites when he described them in incredible detail before they existed. Patents were attempted, and shot down because of his prior art. He didn't have to get his hands dirty playing with the patent office either, he just had to do the writing.

  12. Effort by little1973 · · Score: 1

    What about if the inventor has to show proof about his effort which made his invention possible? I mean if his invention is just a simple idea (like the metal wrapping of batteries in the article) with no real effort behind it then it is an obvious idea.

    The patent system compensates the inventor for his time and money to make the invention. If there are no such things behind an invention then what the patent system compensates for?

    --
    Government cannot make man richer, but it can make him poorer. - Ludwig von Mises
  13. For a more technical read on the case by almost+entirely+lega · · Score: 3, Informative

    http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=116463689942 5 is the law.com/Legal Times article on KSR International v. Teleflex, which will be argued before the Supreme Court today. As the article points out, depending upon how wide ranging a decision the Court issues, this case has implications for millions of patents, many of which have been considered unassailable, having stood up to years of attacks.

  14. obviousness (inventive step) has been legalised by Groote+Ka · · Score: 1

    Because people were continuously looking for arguments why 'a person having ordinary skill in the art' would not arrive at the invention. And apparently, lawyers/patent attorneys were smarter than judges in digging up arguments why something would NOT be obvious. In the end, it currently boils down to the person skilled in the art really requiring an incentive to combine (with neon signs indicated almost) two teachings for something to be not obvious. Little bit to far on, I'd say (even as a (non-US) patent attorney).

    How to proceed? Install a new standard? Sure, but not directly; gradually might be a good idea. The person skilled in the art is surely somewhat creative. If not, he would be a lousy engineer. This should also be taken into account when judging inventiveness/non-obviousness.

    How to put that in arguments is another, but rather difficult issue...

    1. Re:obviousness (inventive step) has been legalised by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Posting as an AC to protect my job :)

      The patent lawyers at the well known high tech company where I work say "Engineers aren't competent to decide obviousness. No matter how obvious the idea seems, submit it to our patent attorneys and let an attorney decide if it is obvious." The company gives a small bonus (several hundred dollars) just for submitting the idea, and a much larger bonus if the company actually files for the patent. Most engineers don't bother with the paperwork unless they think there is a chance the patent will actually be issued, but a few engineers are famous for submitting reams of obvious ideas because they can make better than $100/hour typing them out. The company seems to think that the latter group of engineers is serving the company better.

  15. Test for "obvious" problem by Dekortage · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the article: "Some say the lax rules have fueled the rise of patent speculators--disparagingly known as "patent trolls"--who make a living off predicting those incremental changes to existing high-tech inventions, landing patents and then going after companies for infringement."

    This seems to be one of the real problems with the patent system: abuse. If you can predict the incremental changes to technology, then it suggests some kind of obviousness, no? Perhaps we need a "business reality check" test for patents: if you don't make a serious attempt to commercialize your patented idea with X number of years, then your patent dries up (or at least your potential damages are capped at Z number of dollars). The patent system should exist to protect ideas, not to line pockets with gold.

    --
    $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
    1. Re:Test for "obvious" problem by seriv · · Score: 1

      It seems like this test is on the right track. I am not familiar with the current considerations the patent office makes when reviewing a patent application, but it seems like the patent office should review how much work the inventor(s) actually did on the area of research to which the patent applies. I think this test would bring the patent back to its true definition.

    2. Re:Test for "obvious" problem by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Or they could enforce the part that requires a working version of what you're patenting. You wouldn't be able to just predict what someone else will do and file a patent for it, you'd actually have to do it yourself. Predicting what someone else will do and getting a patent on it so you can later sue them is generally called abusing the system. Predicting what someone else will do and doing it before them is generally called being a smart businessman.

  16. Performing an action at a particular place or time by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

    Will this affect patents that cover taking an action (either patented or public domain) at a particular place or time?

    For instance, recording a music concert and burning CDs of it to sell there at the same concert.

  17. Why not look at what patents are supposed to be? by mjs0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At the end of the day the real test of whether something should be patentable or not should be related to the reason patents were instituted in the first place...to incent investment in R&D by rewarding that investment in innovation. The reward, in the form of artificial protection from competition for a limited time, is enough to ensure the investor(s) profit from the investment. Obvious or not, if a company or individual has invested significant time/money in a program aimed at solving a problem and come up with a new and unique (even if obvious by hindsight) solution they should be rewarded not for the idea, but for the investment, thus incenting investment in innovation.

    The fundamental problem with the patent system today is that it has been warped over the years into something it was not intended to be. Remember, the patent system is not something that has to exist; it is something that we as a society agree to have in order to incent individuals and companies to perform activities that are of benefit to society.

    There appear to be two basic uses for the patent system that unfortunately are sometimes at odds with each other.

    1. Reward investment in deliberate innovation...The benefit to society is clear...by granting a temporary monopoly on an innovation, individuals and companies are incented to invest in areas that would otherwise not have a decent return on investment due to the ease of duplicating any innovation.
    2. Retroactively profit from incidental innovation...The benefit to individual companies is clear in the form of profits...however the benefit to the general economy and society is less clear but possibly present in the form of eliminating duplication of effort. A company or individual can retroactively identify innovations (that were not the primary goal of the investment) and patent these in order to license the technology to others. The societal benefit of this activity is significantly lower than (1) and certainly does not require or deserve the massive incentive that a patent delivers in the form of a monopoly on that innovation.

    [Aside: When I worked for a large s/w company we were encouraged to regularly trawl through our developed code for potentially patentable algorithms, this is clearly a case of (2) not (1)]

    Surely the only useful purpose for a patent system is to incent companies to make investments that would otherwise not have been made. If a company got a clear benefit from an investment and would continue to benefit whether granted a patent or not then there is no point in society (i.e. the rest of us) granting them a patent! What they have is a trade secret that should be protected by other laws (copyright?); it should not be a patentable innovation. Other companies should have the right to make a similar investment to develop a similar solution (or license the technology from the original company if that is agreeable and makes more economic sense)

    Today, if a company has a trade secret that they feel they could make money off they typically have to patent the trade secret (even if only defensively) and then license it. This behaviour (licensing developed solutions) should be incented but not using the same system as that which incents investment in innovation.

    So here is my strawman proposal...

    • Patents should be returned to their original goal...a way to incent innovation by protecting those innovations that result from deliberate investments in R&D.
    • Institute a parallel system that allows companies to profit from incidental innovations if they have value. A way of facilitating the offering of such incidental innovations as commodities rather than legislating them as monopolies is what is needed and far more in keeping with a truly capitalist approach to this, i.e. let the market decide if the innovation is valuable. It would avoid the negative effect of a making these trade secrets patentable, which actually makes innovation in related areas harder to ach
  18. Patent rewards by GnuDiff · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Assuming for a moment that all patents (even software) are valid, there is still a basic problem with the patent system.

    The ultimate goal of a patent system is to benefit the society by encouraging invention. It does this by stimulating creative individuals. It seems that the individuals can now reap rewards, which are not proportionate to their inventions.

    Let the potential reward for a patent should be, for example, at the maximum ten times the investment costs for the invention; after the inventor gets this amount of money, his patent becomes public domain.

    So both for companies which invest in R&D, equipment, scientist salaries, etc, and the guy who thought of his knife+fork arrangement in his basement, their time and money are repaid tenfold - not a bad ROI, now?

    1. Re:Patent rewards by bcross · · Score: 1

      i believe the patent system is not only to encourage innovation but to give credit where credit is due. if i invent a completely original widget and it's the latest and greatest thing then i want to be compensated for it. i want to profit from it and my family should be as well. however if i take metal and wrap it around my leaky battery, I'm not gonna bother trying to get a patent. its a trivial idea and I'm sure i wasn't the first to think of it. i would just be the first to profit that isn't innovation, its just being first to the patent office.

  19. The is (so far) mostly a US problem by Terje+Mathisen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In most of the rest of the world, the required 'patent step' is significantly higher than in the US, where it seems to have been reduced to 'anything that at least some first-year students might not have thought about immediately'. :-(

    About 10 years ago I was asked to do patent reviews on a group of 10 patents which company A would like to use to sue company B:

    Of those valid US patents, 4 were really, really obvious, i.e. more or less the only reasonable way to solve a particular problem. AFAIK this means that the patent is automatically invalid, right?

    The next group of 4 all consisted of taking a standard textbook algorith, without _any_ additional tweaks, and implement it as a VLSI chip.

    The final 2 patents actually covered somewhat neat ideas.

    Terje

    --
    "almost all programming can be viewed as an exercise in caching"
    1. Re:The is (so far) mostly a US problem by Alioth · · Score: 1

      The USPTO knows it, too. A couple of years ago (unfortunately I can't find the article), someone from the USPTO said that they had a name for actually innovative patents - "pioneer patents". They said only 5% were "pioneer patents" - the rest were really not worth much in terms of innovation. Perhaps if the USPTO would only grant patents to these top 5% we'd be in a lot better shape.

  20. It's a perfectly reasonable patent by edwardpickman · · Score: 1, Funny

    I intend to fiercely defend my "On" switch patent. There is nothing obvious about pressing an "On" switch to start a computer as thousands of computer illiterates can attest to. I also plan to defend my plugging computer into wall socket patent. Thousands of other techically challenged have been aided by my patent on this process. My "On" switch patent on monitors is still pending but hopefully that should be approved any day now. It's horrible and unamerican challenging my right to patent everything in sight. Please remember to send me a dollar if you turned your computer on today.

  21. Book value of "Intellectual Property" by dunstan · · Score: 1

    The article skims the big vested interests who have an interest here. There are many, many big corporations whose book value is justified by the monetary value of their patent portfolio - or "Intellectual Property" as most of them call it. Any changes in the patent validity could have a huge impact on their share prices.

    Expect vested interests to dig their heels in.

    --
    The last scintilla of doubt just rode out of town
  22. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by rucs_hack · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With the current mess I would agree. However were the current tech market not so frankly corrupt, suing for a fast buck with frivolous patents there may be some merit to software patents.

    I would think that such patents should be reserved for seriously massive innovations, not navigating a menu or button placement ffs. As an example had Gary Kildall patented some of his (at the time) massive innovations, he might have been able to get a truly fair due, instead of being ripped off and left in the wake of vast corporations taking his work and making billions.

    We're all very familiar with his work now, but back then he was pretty much the only guy doing a lot of the work.

    Software patents are here to stay, but they're screwed up royally.

  23. Isn't it strange.. by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 0

    ...that once you understand something fully, it is obvious that it should be that way, but until you understand it fully, it is a mystery and confusing.

    Examples: Pythagorean Theorem, Fundamental Theorem of Integral Calculus, PnP junction, I could go on for ever (almost).

    My point, let's be very careful what we classify as obvious, someone may have spent a lot of time and effort making it that way, and I don't see why they shouldn't wreap the reward for doing so.

    1. Re:Isn't it strange.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We should also consider the driving force that an assured 17 years of exclusive hypotenuse length calculation monopoly was to Pythagoras. Why, if he didn't have that assurance of profit, I doubt he would have bothered at all.
      You know, a lot of mathematical breakthroughs today are made only because companies have poured billions of dollars into R&D, and it wouldn't be fair if other people could just adapt, extend and build upon those results without compensating the rightholders. Why, if mathematics hadn't been patentable, we wouldn't have any innovation in the field at all!

    2. Re:Isn't it strange.. by EMB+Numbers · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As others will surely point out, mathematics are generally not patentable today, and patents didn't exist when Pythagoras, Leibnitz and Newton were innovating. I wonder why they bothered to innovate then ?

      I don't know if the PnP junction was patented (by IBM?). All of the basic math and theory for what to do with collections of switches (like PnP transistors) was well know hundreds of years before the invention of transistors. Computers composed of tubes and/or relays and/or gears all existed.

      Was the flip-flop circuit patented ? Was the AND gate circuit patented ? Was the "while loop" construct patented ? Was the "if" statement patented (well, "if not" was patented by Microsoft!).

    3. Re:Isn't it strange.. by OneSmartFellow · · Score: 1

      Well, Pythagoras, Leibnitz and Newton were not corporations which invested share holder money to pay for the development of their work.

      They were 'free' to develop at their own pace with little to no pressure to produce a profit from their endevours.

      Times have changed, and laws change with them.

      I am not a big fan of the patent system as it now stands, but it does have a place in current society.

  24. Or... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's my favorite solution:

    The process continues on it's current course of those with money, influence, and important interests controlling it. Meanwhile, all of the irrelevant nerds that compose slashdot scream and whine about the end of the world in a display similar to that of watching someone sitting on a couch try to stop a moving car by grabbing on to the door handles. Completely oblivious to the nerds, the leaders of industry and the politicians will continue to do their dance while their lower class equivilents do their thing ignoring regulation and offshoring infringing production to country's that rightfully couldn't give 2 shits about american patents. *cough*china*cough*

    In short, all your base are belong to them. If it bugs you so much, beat them at their own game and change things. Otherwise, cope with your irrelevance quietly. I'm sick of the chicken hawking. Half assed heel digging just prolongs the bullshit. Become effective and turn things around or let things hit critical mass ASAP so I don't have to sit through the bullshit longer than necessary.

  25. my question by Nocturnal+Deviant · · Score: 1

    Is why they don't go over the old ones as well, there are quite a few bogus patents out there hampering development....

    --
    -Noc
  26. Not quite accurate. by WindBourne · · Score: 1
    1. The reason was not recover the investment costs, but to simply allow a little guy a chance to get it to market. If you read about the history, you will see that this was really about the little guy. Many of America's founding fathers were opposed to patents, but thought that a very limited system would help the little guy.
    2. And this is exactly the opposite. In fact, the congress knew that this would stifle innovation and that was why the very short limit of exactly 7 years. Franklin even came up with a number of inventions that he release on the market freely to help innovations. I am actually surprised that the OSS world has not come up with pointing out that openness was heavily used by such as Franklin.
    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  27. How about getting rid of IP altogether?. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We don't have to eliminate patents, just make it so that only individuals can hold them, and only for 5 years. No corporate ownership of patents and no passing patents on to heirs.

    How rich is a person supposed to be able to get for having a good idea?

    Same thing with copyright.

    If you think that would hurt innovation, you are underestimating humanity to your own peril.

    --
    You are welcome on my lawn.
  28. Medical research and patents by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    > The state funding drug research itself would also bring with it the not inconsequential benefit
    > of the ability to concentrate on beneficial drugs, rather than drugs that will make a profit.

    In most of the civilized world even the "private" medical research is tax funded, as a large part the medicine is financed over taxes. Cutting out the middle-men would be an obvious way to optimize the system for two reasons: 1) Public researchers have a much larger liberty to (and are strongly encouraged to) publish and share results at a much earlier stage than researchers in private corporations, where the final patent applications is usually the first publication of the research. 2) The current medical research is heavily unbalanced in favor of patentable items, starving out research in new uses for existing (non-patented or patent-expired) compounds for other diceases, as well as the effect of life-style changes and other non-medical treatments.

  29. Wrong question by srussia · · Score: 1

    "If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers." -Thomas Pynchon

    Once again, they've got us arguing about the implementation of a stupid idea (patents, i.e., state-enforced monopoly), rather than the stupid idea itself.

    ITSATRAP

    --
    Set your phasers on "funky"!
  30. Every program can be patented by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wrote about 70 lines of code to accomplish something simple and routine that every program of its type should do. My employer wanted to patent it. I told the patent attorney I hadn't invented anything, that I and every other competent programmer had done this many times before.

    The attorney said you can patent anything that is new and not obvious. Further, if someone hasn't patented it already, it's new. And if it was obvious, someone else would have patented it already.

    I replied that his interpretation means every program that hasn't been patented yet could be patented. He agreed.

    I told him "this is the lawyer's full-employment act." I would need two lawyers sitting behind my chair watching everything I type, to (a) make sure it wasn't patented already, and (b) patent it. He agreed again, and said it was a great time to be working in intellectual property.

    Of course, once my own thoughts are patented, *I* can't use them again on my next job!

    I quit my job and haven't written code for a corporation since. That was five years ago. The patent has been granted in the US and many foreign countries, and my name and home address have been shared with the governments of countries where in the past intellectuals have been "purged" for being too smart to swallow the party line.

    Posting AC, but it's too late for me, my employer already shared my private data without my permission, thanks to 70 lines of completely ordinary code I wrote one unlucky day.

  31. the real shame here by darkchubs · · Score: 1

    is that, it takes mega corps to initiate a review of these things, and the Irony that it was obvious that the obviousness was obviously overlooked.

    1. Re:the real shame here by geekoid · · Score: 1

      So the real question is: WHat's in it for them? And how does this impact the people?

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    2. Re:the real shame here by darkchubs · · Score: 1

      well, its not like they are pushing for a review of their patents :) but in general, a patent troll with poorly defined broad based or obvious IP will lye in wait till a larger corporation infringes, then drop some a million trillion dollar law suit and hope for a settlement. They don't generally sue the little guy as he generally cant pay up, and the lawyers work on collected winnings (usually in the small IP holding cases).

  32. UNISYS LZW/GIF NOT A SUB. PATENT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do some research into the term 'submarine patent': while it was questionably shadey in its select application, this particular patent was in FULL PUBLIC VIEW years - nearly a decade! - before gif's were mainstream web media.

    Slashdot might be filled with smart tech types, but you people are abysmal on the whole when it comes to outside knowledge, little better than halfass local TV anchors ad libbing words remembered from stories they didn't write.

    1. Re:UNISYS LZW/GIF NOT A SUB. PATENT by LordLucless · · Score: 1

      Yes, and they didn't enforce it until it became a de facto standard. That's the sort of behaviour that needs to be controlled.

      --
      Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
  33. Little or no evidence indeed by inviolet · · Score: 1
    There's a bit of a problem with it though. There is actually little to no real evidence of patents being beneficial to the economical system. For any technological discipline.

    Yes, little or no real evidence. Other than the whole economy as it stands today, with the recent decades of geometic growth -- unique in history -- in most sectors, including particularly the technological disciplines. If you insist that patents were irrelevant to that, you'll need some awfully compelling data.

    Of course patents get abused, but patents are (at heart) an incentive system. Any argument against them must solve the daunting task of providing or proving an alternative incentive that works comparably well.

    As well, consider that there are nearly eight million patents out there. What percent of them are acting as anti-competitive threats which a reasonable economist would object to? Whereas what percent of them are protecting past, current, and future research investments that bore fruit? If you insist that patents are more trouble than they're worth, you need to provide these numbers.

    --
    FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    1. Re:Little or no evidence indeed by evil_Tak · · Score: 1

      It is known that incentive plans do not work with respect to creativity, invention, and innovation.
      http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog00000000 70.html

  34. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by squiggleslash · · Score: 3, Informative

    Let's pretend you're talking about inventive rather than innovative, because I suspect that's what you meant (most people do), and "He didn't actually invent it, but he was the person who first packaged it in a form that got it into people's hands" doesn't strike me as something anyone has said patents should be granted for. Patents are supposed to go to the first person to invent something and take it to the patent office, not the first person to make it popular.

    I'm not really sure anything in CP/M qualifies as massively inventive. Kildall's CP/M became popular not because it was inventive, but because it was there. It was a simple program loader with a very small library accessable to loaded applications. Many of the fundamentals in CP/M went back to libraries that came with the Intel test rig he was programming.

    Yes, many aspects of it were copied into QD-OS (better known today as MSDOS), but these were compatibility hacks rather than functionality. Things like "System call 5 writes a character to the console" (or something, I forget which call did that.) FAT was copied too, but FAT is, frankly, obvious. I'm not sure how many other operating systems prior to CP/M used the same concepts, my guess would be many, but the Unix system we know and love isn't that different - the major difference is that the filenames appear FAT's equivalent of iNodes, rather than in dedicated directory files.

    Kildall would probably have disagreed with you anyway. The guy was a programmer through and through. Despite all the anecdotes, the major reason IBM didn't have CP/M86 for the PC was because Kildall wasn't that interested in it as a project. Had he been so, it would have been released a year or two prior, and Seattle Computing's QD-OS wouldn't have been written because the need for it would have been absent. If he'd been interested, when the IBM people knocked on his door, they'd have been treated as any other OEM, rather than a group needing an entirely new product.

    Kildall was interested in the things he was working on, much more so than maximising the money he got and controlling the market. Short of doing so defensively, as you would today, I doubt he'd have patented anything, even if something as obvious and derivative as CP/M had been patentable.

    --
    You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
  35. Opposition quotes by sadangel · · Score: 1

    A quote from the end of the article:

    "I don't think U.S. industry is going to stand for a huge cloud being placed on their valuable patent portfolio," said Mossinghoff, the former patent commissioner.

    Yet Microsoft, Google, Oracle, Intel, and Cisco, companies with immense patent portfolios are all completely behind changing the rules.

    I also got a kick out of the opponents who claim this will ruin the "predictability" of the patent request process. I suppose knowing you're going to get a rubber stamp is predictable and even equitable in its own little way.

  36. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

    I strongly agree. It's *possible* for a software innovation to be *truly* novel and warrant a patent, but this is extremely rare. The problem is that the patent office gives them away far too easily, and lets them be far too broad. Like you say, a patent should be for some world-chagning invention, meaning a way to keep the PTO in line would be to enforce hard limits on the number of patents granted per period so they must be judicious in deciding what deserves a patent. Also, they could test a patent by taking the problem it intends to solve, and asking someone in the field, "what are some ways to solve x?". If he lists the idea to be patented, it's probably obviousl.

  37. Um, the gov't does just fine thank you... by rsilvergun · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Many, if not most drugs are created based on studies and research done by the Government. The Government does the really expensive work, and release the research for free. Then drug companies take that and polish it up into a drug. Most of the cutting edge stuff gets done at Universities on the public's dime, because drug companies won't fund something that isn't going to be profitable in more than 7 years.

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    1. Re:Um, the gov't does just fine thank you... by MightyYar · · Score: 1

      Universities are not funded by the government. Even so-called "state" universities rely heavily on private and corporate grants and donations. In fact, a major trend in the last 20 years has been the partnering of universities and corporations, often with a commercial spinoff from the resulting research.

      The federal government certainly does subsidize drug research, and I'm not arguing otherwise. Only a fool would argue that the drug industry is completely left to capitalist forces - it is heavily regulated, and somewhat subsidized. I was just arguing that the free market does indeed fill niches that I don't think government alone is nimble enough to recognize, let alone fill. Patents are an important part of this niche-filling process, and even the universities would get much less money if IP rights could not be shared between the sponsers and the university.

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  38. How about a yearly contest? by stabiesoft · · Score: 2, Funny

    I say make it like the olympics. Each category gets say 50 patents/yr. A category would be say pharma, or chips, or fusion, etc. At the end of each year, the PTO, looks at all the submissions for the year and the top 50 get the patents. This would stop the dumb ones, (they'd never win) & make the good ones get even more noteriety. After all, one of the goals of patents was to make the technology disseminated. I ask, does ANYONE review patents for "Hey thats a great idea, I'd like to license and manufacture that?"
    Of course, software patents would just not get a category. Copyright is the correct way to handle sw.
    my 2 cents

    1. Re:How about a yearly contest? by soft_guy · · Score: 1

      This is a superb idea! This is one of the best ideas I have ever read.

      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
  39. One word: Ebay by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    who patented using the internet for online auctions. This isn't just obvious, it's using the a tool (The Internet), for it's intended purpose (near real-time communication). It's like patenting using a hammer to pound nails. Amazon's one-click is the same. I mean, who'd of though using cookies to track user state? Genius!

    --
    Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
  40. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by Elektroschock · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Patents are for inventions, not for 'innovations'.

    The best approach to solve the softpat problem is lobbying against them. The approach was succesful in Europe and is much cheaper than any fishy patent agreement deals.

    Maybe we need a different copyright style system for software designs. Patent law is designed for classical big industry needs, the individual inventor is a myth. No, you cannot fix patent law to serve software industry protection demands.

    Unfortunately US patent reform lobbyists go fishing red herrings. Novelty, Obviousness... That is not the way to solve the softpat mess. It is a label for a patent examination test, a dogmatic test which has nothing to do with your imagination about what you think is new or obvious. The 'person skilled in the art' is a legal fiction and does not refer to you.

    The problem can be solved but don't try to be smart when there is 'prior art' in patent reform. The inconvenient truth is that there is absolute no proof in economical research that the patent system works at all. That is a economist's credibility test. Most high ranking IP economists will admit it. What we further know is that in dynamic service markets patent law causes much harm. So let's talk about scope of patent law. Let's talk about governance of the patent system. Uhh, that hurts our poor patent institutions. The first step for the USA would be the application of a technical contribution test and a reform of the utility test. Then the USA, switched to first to file, could join the European Patent Convention which would help to solve a lot of problems.

    I know how to fix the system. All I need is ressources.

  41. 2 years to deliver product, then lose the patent by msobkow · · Score: 1

    Regardless of whether a patent is obvious or not, the creator should be required to provide an implementation of a software patent within 2 years or lose it to the public domain.

    The same goes for purchased patents. No implementation in a reasonable time frame, no patent.

    Limit the resale of patents. Initial applicant + 1 sale/transfer every 5 years. That will prevent the patent portfolio leeches from using patents and courts as a revenue model, because once they buy a patent, they have two years to implement. If they don't, it goes public domain, and they can't resell it once they've bought the rights.

    Take that, SCO!

    --
    I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
  42. Formula for Patent System by bdmarti · · Score: 1

    i = number of patents granted per year (estimate for next year) c = cost of running patent office f = small fee n = number of years a patent has been in effect All patents applied for would need to submit a cost of research and development. This cost would be auditable and failing an audit of research costs would also fail to get a patent. All patents would need to be renewed on a yearly basis. In addition, all patents would pay a yearly fee for the privilage of having a monopoly. This fee would be caluculated with the following formula: Fee = (f+c/i) * 2^n Such a patent fee structure would allow the patent office to run without any additional tax inputs. Further, the fact that the fee by definition excedes the cost of running the patent office would result in a surplus of funds for the patent office. These surplus funds would be spent each year by the patent office to "buy" patents into the public domain by paying back the research and development cost. The patent office could buy back lot's of small cost patents or a couple of big cost patents. The exponentially rising nature of the fee would serve to be a limiting factor in the continuation of buying a patent. Truly profitable patents would be paid for for as long as the monopoly was profitable and then when the fee wasn't paid they would become public domain. patents that aren't immidiatly profitable wouldn't likely be paid for by corporations, or if they were they wouldn't be paid for for long.

  43. Coming Soon? Idea Patentability by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2006/03/21/patents-contin ue-their-star-turn-appearing-today-at-the-supreme- court/

    Well, that case was heard by the SCOTUS back in March .. i don't think they've ruled on it yet. It's quite possible they may authorize the patentability of ideas and laws of nature.

    In which case I am writing a computer program that generates ideas. No longer will I need to do any research .. just spend a million bucks on patents hoping one or two may be true.

    For example, I'll make a program that says "orange juice causes cancer", "wine causes cancer" etc. Then, spend 100 million patenting 200,000 of these, or similar, statements. The patent office is not a peer review board, they aren't able to discern whether I did quality research or not (for example, ironically it was recently reported that the effect in the case before the SCOTUS may not be effective). Sure, this may cause some folks not to do research cause I'd be owning any truths they find out. But maybe a few would then hopefully if they find out something useful I can sue them for stealing my ideas.

    "promote the progress of the arts" Pfft.

    If the current case, "obvious combining of patents" gets approved. Well I have something for that too. Everytime someone comes out with an invention, I wont spend ANY money on development or research. R&D is for suckers. I will simply buy new (at $300 each) patents that combine a popular existing patent from the industry with the new one. Regardless of whether the combination is obvious. For example this case deals with having adjustable foot pedals in combination with some sort of accelerate by wire driving. Let's say someone invents an easier to use steering wheel. Well I'll be watching for the patent issuance. The day it's issued I will immmediately file for a patent on combining that with anti-lock brakes. Anyone who put that new kind of steering wheel on a car with anti lock brakes will owe me money!

    "promote the progress of the arts" Pfft.

    And yes. I am being sarcastic, cynical.

  44. Better yet by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can save money by NOT patenting the computer generated statements, but publishing it somewhere. On the web and let it get into the google archive. Since you have up to one year to patent it .. You wont have to spend any money just have to wait till someone else comes out with the research. This is also something Luddite or anti science nuts can do to prevent research without spending a dime.

  45. Re:Universties are not funded by the Government by mikeb · · Score: 1

    Depends which country you are in - maybe not in your country, but then 'my country' != 'world' for all countries I am aware of

  46. Re:Universties are not funded by the Government by MightyYar · · Score: 1

    My apologies - I often forget that the internet is a global forum. I was, of course, referring to the US. Your country, the UK, is following a similar path, though. Even flagship Oxford is only able to function as a result of private donations these days. I remember reading a blurb a few weeks back about how many universities in the UK have had to close their science programs due to lack of funding. There was some kind of emergency £75 million thrown at the problem, IIRC. I don't really follow affairs in your country much, but I like the BBC for it's world news coverage so I absorb some British news at the same time :)

    --
    W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
  47. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by nine-times · · Score: 1

    As an example had Gary Kildall patented some of his (at the time) massive innovations, he might have been able to get a truly fair due, instead of being ripped off and left in the wake of vast corporations taking his work and making billions.

    It seems to me that patenting massive innovations just means the vast corporations' lawyers have to work a little harder to rip you off and make billions off of your work. Either way, it probably won't be you that makes the billions. Your best hope is to settle for a little less than the millions they would have paid their lawyers during the law suit.

  48. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by rucs_hack · · Score: 1

    sadly true, would that it were not so

  49. Re: Pioneer Patent Pool by Anomalyst · · Score: 1

    So we take 4% of the total number of patents granted at the beginning of the millenium in 2001 and this becomes the total number of patents that will be granted per annum. On a quarterly basis Patent applications will be scored on their ingenuity. Top 4% are selected and are published for public review for prior art and other defects prior to final approval. The "Sturgeon's Law" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon's_Law remaining 96% are rejected. Resubmissions of rejects must wait 12 calendar months, rejection of actually selected candidates would go through something similar to the current resubmission process. Regardless, every resubmission doubles the application fee to motivate the applicant to do a proper and thorough job on the next try.

    --
    There is no right to feel safe thru security vaudeville at the expense of everyone's freedom, privacy and tax money.
  50. Kildall and CP/M by doom · · Score: 1
    squiggleslash wrote:
    I'm not really sure anything in CP/M qualifies as massively inventive. Kildall's CP/M became popular not because it was inventive, but because it was there. It was a simple program loader with a very small library accessable to loaded applications. Many of the fundamentals in CP/M went back to libraries that came with the Intel test rig he was programming.

    The fact that it was there at all was innovative. There was a time when serious computer professionals didn't think anything useful could be done with those toy "microprocessor" chips. If Kildall had patented it according to today's standard legal practice, he would've tried to get a patent for "doing something useful with a microprocessor".

    One of the things that was unique about CP/M -- and I would guess it was innovative -- was that it had some concept of device independance. It wasn't designed for a monoculture of a single machine architecture.

    Yes, many aspects of it were copied into QD-OS (better known today as MSDOS), but these were compatibility hacks rather than functionality. Things like "System call 5 writes a character to the console" (or something, I forget which call did that.) FAT was copied too, but FAT is, frankly, obvious.

    Uh... do you realize that the "Q-DOS" that Gates bought to repackage as PCDOS/MSDOS turned out to have been ripped off from CP/M? It was essentially an illegal fork of the code... that was proven in court later, you might want to try some web searches on this.

    Kildall would probably have disagreed with you anyway. The guy was a programmer through and through. Despite all the anecdotes, the major reason IBM didn't have CP/M86 for the PC was because Kildall wasn't that interested in it as a project.

    Actually, I regard that as just another anecdote. I've heard that he "didn't seem enthusiastic about it" or some such... but I don't think there's any way, realistically, that any of us can know what he might have said or done that might have have given the IBM guys that impression.

    Had he been so, it would have been released a year or two prior, and Seattle Computing's QD-OS wouldn't have been written because the need for it would have been absent. If he'd been interested, when the IBM people knocked on his door, they'd have been treated as any other OEM, rather than a group needing an entirely new product.

    Once again, I think your perception of the history on this sounds somewhat off.

  51. Re:How about getting rid of patents all together.. by foobsr · · Score: 1

    I'm not really sure anything in CP/M qualifies as massively inventive.

    Quote; "CP/M on the other hand is based upon the Operating System for the DEC PDP-10, "TOPS-10", at least concerning file and device naming conventions, as well as for some command designations. Other influences are less clear, but undisputable."

    There was indeed quite the same "look and feel" (or odd PDP logic - illegal UUO - unimplemented user operation (error - never got (really understood) that one):)

    CC.

    --
    TaijiQuan (Huang, 5 loosenings)