Slashdot Mirror
Schools Act to Short-Circuit 'Cyberbullying'
Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "So-called cyberbullying is a growing problem for school administrators, the Wall Street Journal reports. What may once have been snickers in the hallway can now be an excruciatingly public humiliation spread via email, text messaging and online teen forums. From the article: '"There's always the legal discussion of 'if it doesn't happen at school, can a district take action?'" says Joe Wehrli, policy-services director for the Oregon School Boards Association. "If a student is harassed for three hours at night on the Web and they come to school and have to sit in the same classroom with the student that's the bully, there is an effect on education, and in that way, there is a direct link to schools," he argues.'"
Shouldn't they be stopping *real* bullying, where someone gets beat up, before they try to tackle "cyber" bullying?
I mean, it isn't going to work... how do you stop people from talking to each other, and doesn't that raise ethical/censorship concerns? This just means that you don't have to be the biggest guy in school to bully somebody. Get an anonymous email and do it that way, and "we" get our turn bullying...
Seriously, you (a school) can't stop kids from using IM, E-mail, and forums. Only their parents can do that and most really don't care. The government trying to do that (even just for schoolkids) would be a huge step in the wrong direction as far as the first amendment goes.
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
The thing that I find somewhat amusing about the whole issue of "cyber-bullying" is that the online world is the traditional playground of geeks. Now those geeks are getting picked on in their playground instead of just the one at school - the difference being that in this playground, the geeks are the bigger, stronger ones. So, you decided to try to mess with me online eh? Lets see how tough you act when your Myspace page is filled with horse porn, and your parents' inbox is filled with spam from the darkest corners of the web, with your name in them. Still acting tough? Whoops, sorry, I guess my finger slipped and I sharded all your purples in WoW. And distributed your gold to everyone in Ironforge (you Alliance pansy). And got you kicked out of your guild. So, stop picking on me at school, and I'll stop destroying you at home and online. Deal?
There is no mod option "-1: Disagree" for a reason. "Overrated" is not an acceptable substitute. Post something instead.
If only. Sadly, its just that the bullies have learned to use a computer. Actually, to be more precise, they've learned to use the bare minimum of IM, E-mail and MySpace. Ask them to do anything else, and they'd probably implode.
Nothing is impossible. We just haven't quite worked out how to do it yet.
Anybody who manages to get themselves targetted and bullied online deserves to have their internet user license revoked, their AOL CDs smashed, and forced to take a defensive surfing class taught by Bobo the circus ape.
Here's a thought: How about they handle regular bullying, which happens in the school, before worrying about cyberbullying, which is more out of their hands?
The thing is, at least in my experience, bullies rarely get punishment for their bullying, even when the abused works up the courage to complain to someone. Some schools may have more things to worry about, like fighting, drugs, and gang-wars, but there are plenty that don't. Most of the teachers in these schools turn a blind eye to the problem right in front of them. I've only ever seen one teacher, aside from the school counselar, tell a student to knock it off. Vulgar slurs, personal attacks, and cruel nicknames may seem like something kids are "supposed" to do to each other, but it has longer reaching effects than most adults will admit to.
And, when doled out in large quanitities, can lead to Columbine-like events.
No, I don't have an answer for bullying. I wish I did. When ever a bully is punished for what they do, it's generally a detention, and then they're back dishing out more punishment because you turned them in. Perhaps some sort of humiliation for them, like having to wear a dress for a day, would help them realize what it does, but the parents would complain that their "darling angel" is being unfairly treated, and that would be the end of that.
So if they don't get punished at school, of course they're going to continue at home, because the parents tend to be oblivious to what they are doing. Even worse is that some of those on the receiving end of bullying at school will turn around at home and do cyberbullying. Often they'll target those who attack them at school, other times they'll go after the popular kids, usually anonymously. This gives them a feeling of control and power, the reverse of what they feel at school.
So take care of regular bullying first. Then you'll know how to work against cyberbullying, and in the process probably take care of some of it, too.
The whole concept of everything that could possibly affect a kid's education being the state's responsibility scares the hell out of me. Yeah, his point about after-hours bullying carrying through to the classroom makes a certain amount of sense, but frankly, I don't care.
We sometimes might eat food that doesn't conform to the district's nutritional guidelines. Is that the school's concern?
My kids get to play video games that the district would never allow. Is that the school's concern?
The rugrats might even play a game of tag in the yard, even though the district doesn't allow it anymore. Is that the school's concern?
No, no, and no. And neither is it the school's concern whether my kids are the source or target of bullying when they are not in school. Stay out of my living room! I am the parent here, not a well-meaning but fascist bureaucrat.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I'm not sure how things are working in other cultures, but in the U.S. part of our problem is bowing to the overly sensitive.
If we give our kids the tools to handle pressure, and the outlets to deal with it, they will be much healthier adults. Since the 1970's, we've psychoanalized ourselves into a morass or "feelings" and "inner child" excuses. We want to legislate and be protected from things that "offend" us. So, our children grow up, not being able to handle the pressure and they go to the extreme when they snap.
I'm reminded of the line in an Eagles song, "I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass." (Get Over It). The term now-a-days is "Man Up". If you went crying to school administration, or you father, they'd tell you to get tough.
If you don't teach kids how to deal with it, how to get angry, but control it, how to defend yourself, but don't start it then we will soon have a nation of people who shouldn't be allowed out of their homes.
I was listening to local talk radio yesterday and the discussion was about a Texas town where the word "nigger" was going to be outlawed. One of the callers couldn't understand why the radio host considered people a little too oversensitive to the word. The caller wanted all hateful words legislated out of usage because it was his right to be protected from them. He told the host that if someone used the word "nigger" on him, he would pull out a gun and shoot him. His inability to deal with the harshness of the world makes him see murder as a proportionate response to a racial slur. He literally said that in order to avoid him shooting someone, government should make a law against the slur so he could take the person to court. (Seattle Dori Monson Show.)
We need to teach kids to deal with it, react appropriately and proportionately and responsibly, and not expect to be protected from things that offend them.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong fix.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
/ignore
:)
Okay, so that wasn't exactly what he told me. But that's how it applies to internet bullies.
Bullies get their jollies by making you look little. They want to feel superior to you. If you just put every account they create on ignore and don't bother reading whatever crap they post online in an attempt to get a rise out of you, they'll get bored and go elsewhere. The problem is that a lot of kids think they have to argue back any time anyone says something about them. They can't shut up long enough to realize they are giving the bully exactly what he wants.
Favorite stunt against a bully: I once told a guy I'd let him hit me three times and if he could knock me down with any of those three punches I'd give him $20. Three hits later I was still standing and he was seriously reconsidering the idea of a fight. He was a wuss and I knew it
120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
I think I mentioned the Columbine shootings a few months back, and someone replied recommending Going Postal - Rage, Murder and Rebellion: From Reagan's Workplaces to Clinton's Columbine and Beyond. I read this last night:
Substitute "children" for "slaves" and "compulsory school" for "slavery", and this paragraph perfectly describes why the bullying problem perpetuates itself: "we're" currently incapable of recognizing how the institution itself creates the problem. Gatto describes the government school as "psychopathic"...
Later chapters are on the Columbine and other schoolyard shooters, but I haven't gotten there yet.
(p.s. If you see this, thanks for the book recommendation, Slashdotter, whoever you were...
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
You do not have the right not to be offended, and neither do children. In life, there are going to be many people who won't like you, and as such, you have to develop your own inner self independent from the opinions of others.
Now, if an adult hits an adult, he will be tried for assault. Similarly, if a bully attacks a kid or is found physically hurting him, taking his lunch money, etc. I think he should be expelled and sent to a military school, or better, his parents will have to pay the normal fine for assault (around a thousand USD) directly to the kid.
- pay attention in class
- don't run in the corridors
- attend the required lessons
they're teaching children how to behave. If you take your line to it's logical conclusion then teachers shouldn't step in when pupils are fighting because that's teaching them how to behave.90% of what you learn in school is about social skills, or 'how to behave'. Most of it you learn from your peers, but teachers, especially the good ones, will be leading the way.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
"Your son should know that lying will get his suspension extended. he keeps saying that you told him to hit the other child"
"Yes, that's correct"
"errrr...hmmm. Never got that one before"
Of course, these days, I would have been expelled, and my mother brought up on "conspiracy to commit assault" charges, while the jackass on the bus that was bullying would have just picked a new target.
there should be a teacher there to protect kids on the playground, but past a certain point, kids need to learn to stand up for themselves. When they get into the world, there will always be people that will attempt to bully them, whether it's their boss trying to get them to work unpaid overtime, or any one of a hundred other things in life. If they spent their childhood running to a hug consoler, they'll never know how to handle it in real life.
Any credible threat of or actual incident of physical violence are illegal here, so I don't see why they need a separate law or whatever to deal with any of that, just enforce the existing laws. I had to intervene in lots of fights because the admins didn't do anything at school. Isn't hitting someone still assault?
stuff |
Maybe this reflects one of the differences between the US and the UK. A significant portion of my education, back in the 60's, and of my son's education (ongoing) was/is related to social skills. I'm not saying that it's the schools responsibility to deal with episodes which happen at MacD's but that behviour will, inevitably, be part of a pattern which is repeated in school which is their responsibility, both social, and, in the UK, legal.
So, back in the real world, when my son was being bullied, both in and out of school, it was the school which dealt with it, in co-ordination with all the students and parents involved. It wasn't a witch hunt, it wasn't trial of the century, it was simply the forum where issues like that can be resolved in a non-confruntational manner.
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
"Deter". It's short, to the point, and has a precise and exactly conveys the intended meaning. "Short-circuit" is long, vague, and even given the benefit of the doubt as to its suitability, has a connotation of impeding a positive action.
Also, I'm better than you.
Acy
-- Too lazy to get a lower UID.
My dad tells me stories of when he was in school, that if you started teasing other kids in class, etc. teachers would bust you in the head with a dictionary. I am pretty sure that would stop just about any bully these days, from the shock value alone. I find it likely that a bully is getting no punishment at home, and I don't advocate physical punishment, but maybe the administration and law enforcement should step up punishment of bullies (hitting is still assault, right?)
stuff |
One of those was the teachers encouraging other students to laugh at you whenever you screwed-up.
Since I screwed-up a lot, I soon developped the ability to not give a rat's ass about what other people think of me, an ability that has served me pretty well in the decades since.
But of course, in a politically-correct ages, busybodies have to have something to do, too, no?
...for bullying to occur?
This statement illustrates the problem. Bullying must be tolerated for it to occur. The best person who can deny a bully permission to bully is the bully, himself. That's called self-control and if the bully had it, this issue wouldn't come up. So what's next?
Schools and parents think they can deny a bully permission to be a bully. They can't. They aren't there when the bad guy acts out. They can punish afterward but they can't do a damn thing to stop the bad behavior while it's actually happening. Like training a dog, if the conditioning isn't presented timely, it's useless.
No, there's only one person who can effectively deny a bully permission to bully: the victim. In real life, legal consequences and PC-nonviolent sensibilities be damned, the only effective way to change the behavior of a bully is for his victim-selection process to fail. When he comes across a "victim" who knocks out his teeth instead of cowering in fear, the bully will stop. (For the moment. He may have to be "conditioned" a few times before he truly learns to think before he acts.)
What amazes me about the quote above is that a victim would remain online for hours, getting bullied, while shutting down the bully is a simple matter of turning off IMs (or whatever channel the bully is using to reach the victim) and going on about ones business.
We don't need to protect victims by trying to defend against bullying. We need to teach victims how to short-circuit the whole process. They are the ones with the strongest legitimate interest in seeing the problem solved. They are the *only* ones who are in the right place at the right time to implement solutions. Hit back. Turn off IMs. Whatever, just stop being a victim.
Around age 40 or so there's a spike in contacts with people you haven't thought about since high school. I remember one particular email from a guy who in HS was a midlevel asshole in a group of likeminded young men who devoted their redneck lives to making mine suck. Anyway - flash forward a few decades and apparently these people crawl out of the woodwork, maybe it's part of their 12 step program. Who knows. He wants to be all cheery and shit and ask me to call and that happy nonsense. My response started with "I hope you fucking come home and find your whole family chopped up with power tools and stuffed in garbage bags you worthless piece of shit. I hope you drown in your own children's blood, just send me your address and I'll come by to make it happen." And went on for a few pages after that, closing with, "bone cancer isn't bad enough for for you, so go suck your daddy's cock in hell."
I hope that got the message across - I didn't want him to confuse me with someone who didn't want him burned alive while I laughed hysterically, drinking wine out his wife's severed skull.
BTW I am 100% ok with making credible, anonymous untraceable death threats against the people who torment my kids. If they want terrorism, bring it on. I'm crazier and meaner than all of them.
Why would he be working at McDonalds?
1. Tune them out
A. Don't bring your mobile phone/pager/blackberry to school, so you aren't checking IMs at school.
B. Don't post a MySpace site, or totally ignore other MySpace sites that are critical of you.
C. Set up blocks in your IM and e-mail so you don't get messages/mail from people who harass you.
2. Tell them to fuck off
A. If you have friends who keep telling you stuff like "do you know what so-and-so is saying about you?" and "did you see what they posted about you", you tell them "I don't give a fuck about what so-and-so says or posts, they're nothing but a sad loser."
3. Realize that once you get out of high school, no one gives a damn about high school. It is so not important. No one wears the letter jacket or the school ring beyond about the summer after they graduate. The opinions of those high school kids are less than worthless. Those people do not matter at all.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
...huh? Are you sure you replied to the right comment?
I, too, was bullied all throughout my childhood. I was always sick, and so I was always the smallest and weakest. Yeah, I got cuts and bruises. Do I still have them now? No. However, each and every experience as a child shapes us into who we are as an adult. As I got older, I got bigger. Before I knew it, I was the tallest person in the crowd, and people stopped bullying me. Just because the bullying had stopped doesn't mean the residual mental effects of past bullying magically disappeared. Physical wounds heal rather quickly, even deep ones. I wouldn't say the same thing about mental wounds, though, and just like a physical scar, a mental one is prone to reinjury.
Think of a domestic abuse victim, who constantly gets smacked across the face if they anger their abuser. The slightest raise in voice from the abuser would receive a certain response, probably in preparation to getting smacked across the face. Years later, this abuse victim is free of their abuser. They don't have bruises on their face anymore. However, when they feel they've angered someone, you can't possibly tell me they won't still get nervous and instinctually brace for a smack.
I'd say you are the troll here, unless you'd like to vindicate yourself, in which case, feel free.
Have you driven a fnord... lately?
You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.
i'm gonna guess you don't have a kid, never been bullied (at school or otherwise), and have never worked in or for a school of any kind.
if bullying is occurring between classmates, it's the school's business because it does have a direct effect on the school and schooling of all involved, no matter when or where the bullying is occurring. your mcdonald's example of cleaning up crap has nothing to do with being popular, the manager would generally assign that task to either the new guy or quite possibly do it himself (i wouldn't have someone whose normal tasks involve handling food clean up crap, you've obviously never worked in food service either). the reason the bullying is occurring in the first place is because those involved are classmates, not because they're just kids who happened to meet but go to different schools (which does happen in parks and playgrounds, but this isn't related to that). also, many times parents don't even know the bullying is happening. the school usually finds out because they can see the effects of it (and are generally more experienced with the effects of it and dealing with it than parents). so while the actions might be happening online from home, the effect is to frighten the victim while in the presence of the bully, which is usually at school. meaning, direct relationship to school.
please me, have no regrets.
What measures should be taken to prevent the 15-30 dead school children and whose fault is it that the kid took a black market AK-47 to school?
I don't think the schools should replace the ATF. Sometimes a fucking crazy lunatic will snap and go on a rampage. An incredibly small amount of bullied kids turn into homicidal lunatics, while majority do not. Let's skip the arguments about slippery slopes in security vs. freedom.
15-30 kids is a very small amount of people. An unfortunate tragedy that is the price of living the way we do. There are a vast number of ways we can reduce the number of deaths in the world, and they all bear their costs. Thus, a reasonable accounting of return on investment must be made. A human life has a price and we make that decision constantly.
For example, the computers we're posting on slashdot with could have saved an african kid from death. But we don't care. We like our computers. It takes about $200 bucks to fix a cleft palate so that a kid can live a normal life instead of being ostracized, maybe murdered for not having a minor surgery that would leave them looking completely normal except for a small scar on their lip.
That's the cost of a human life. Some human lives cost more than others, proximity is a huge factor in the value of a life. 15-30 dead kids vs. inconveniecing many many millions of kids.
Same deal with speed limits. More die the higher the speed limit is. Perhaps we have 1 person dying at a nation-wide speed limit of 10mph. How much is that life worth? This isn't a "slippery slope" example to ask "where does it end?" This is a specific example that is identifying the end-point, the value of a human life. Should we drop the speed limit to 5mph? We have to recognize that even inconveniences are too high a price to pay for saving a human life when the inconvenience is spread across a sufficiently large number of people. And just as an aside, let's weigh the inconvenience of the millions hit by spam, and the life of the spammer. I'm not saying he should be punished with death(not saying he shouldn't either), it's just something to think about.
Buying our way out of inconveniences with human lives isn't a new decision to be made, it's one that we've already made by living our lifestyle. Even living as a hermit in the woods has an economic cost of the lives that could have been saved by volunteer work.
Guns tamed the wild west, and they can do the same for schools. Let's reissue the "Peacemaker" as the "BullyKiller".
(This content is best consumed with a glass of water and a healthy sense of humour).
Let's start arming kids -- as soon as they start kindergarten, they receive a revolver and are trained to use it. Presto -- bullying and child abuse are a thing of the past.
You know that teasing and bullying aren't the same thing, right? In much the same way that spanking your child is different than beating him with a lead pipe, or that flirting with the cute girl at the office is different than dragging her into the forest and raping her.
I'd be surprised if you'd say this if we were talking about adults abusing children, or husbands abusing wives. Abuse is abuse -- it doesn't matter whether it's adults mistreating each other at work, playground bullies, or mommy coming home drunk and beating her son with leather belt for an hour every night. It has exactly the same affect, and the victim is just as deserving of protection and support. This is particularly true for children, who generally lack any means whatsoever of defending themselves.
Incidentally, do you know what happens if you ignore the people making fun of you in elementary school? They up the stakes -- spitting in your hair, destroying your belongings, physical assaults after school, framing you for vandalism ... I'm guessing that you were never really picked on. You can always spot the guy that wasn't picked on, because he thinks the "we all had it just as bad". Unless you were terrified of leaving your house and contemplating suicide because on non-stop harassment, you don't know shit. You're just as stupid and clueless as people that say that an abused wife should "just leave" -- with her two children, numerous injuries, and no income, in a society that despises single mothers above all other forms of life ... THAT'LL work.
People like you are why bullying still exists. This kind of stubborn refusal to accept that there is a problem, just because YOU didn't experience it personally, is ultimately at the root of most social injustices that exist in western society. People who have never had a mental illness think that depression is just "the blues", and people should just "get over it". People who haven't suffered a severe trauma usually think that post-traumatic-stress-disorder is just "nerves". And people who have never been bullied think that bullying is the same thing as the friendly teasing that everyone experiences. Sorry, it just ain't the case.
Seriously man, fuck you. I can't even imagine the kind of mentality that goes into such sociopathic disregard for the suffering of others.
I grew up a little too early in the 90s to be subject to cyber-bulling, but I was a victim of bullying for 13 miserable years. Trust me, it doesn't just fade. We can deny it all we want, try to be as manly as we want, but if you've ever endured more than a few episodes of bullying, you know how horrible it can be and how much the effects still linger under the surface. Even as an adult, I have trouble socializing because I go into every situation with new people expecting rejection, because that's all I got in school. It's bad enough when 800 students at a high school, middle school, or worse yet, elementary school where recess allows more physical interaction know how much of a target you can be. If the entire Internet community and news-watching audience knows because of MySpace or Youtube, I can see suicide being viable. Bullying isn't a joke, it's not merely a fact of life. It's a horribly destructive, mentally anguishing scenario that seems to have no escape. What's worse is when you've had enough and you retaliate. I only retaliated four or five times that I can remember, when I had truly had enough and snapped. Luckily I didn't break out the AK-47 (someone else in my district did in 1997, though, if you remember Heath High School). I only usually punched the guy once or twice, or in one instance all I did was scream "I'm going to kill you." In every instance I got an enormous punishment, much greater than the bully did. For example, the bully got detention one day, and I got alternative school for twenty days. In my school, if you defended yourself you were a goner. Not because the bully would royally pound you--because the school system would. Especially after the school shooting, they were zero-tolerance. The victim always gets the maximum punishment, the bully the minimum. It's a sad, sick fact of school administration. As far as school authority, in our district the school had "authority from when you entered the school bus until you entered the door of your house." This meant that if you got into a fight in your own yard, and the bus driver saw it, you were in trouble at school. Happened to me too! Some bully followed me home on my bike and started talking down to me, so I rushed him. The bus driver saw it and reported me. I can see how schools would have authority over this sort of thing--and it's no different than a workplace being able to fire you for off-work postings to the Internet that are related to work. What the child does online, if it involves the school in any way--then the school has some degree of authority.
Actually, I'd say that teachers do things like stop children from fighting and running in the halls and screaming during class because it creates a chaotic atmosphere where it is very difficult to coordinate the actions of 20+ people so that they learn a damn thing and can concentrate. A chaotic atmosphere also makes it more difficult to get everyone to safety in an emergency.
I'm a public librarian. I don't have the moral authority to teach my patrons how to act, but I do still set and enforce standards of behavior in the library so that the majority of the patrons can concentrate on their work and that when emergencies occur (like during a fire alarm), they know to quietly and calmly grab their items and go where I tell them. It's not a matter of my raising them. It's a matter of providing the appropriate atmosphere.
As to applying this to cyberbullying, that's difficult to do if it isn't happening on school grounds or at school functions. While schools may be able to counsel students, I'm not sure they can penalize them (or taht it would be appropriate to do so) for their actions outside of school. They can, however, make the appropriate authorities (parents or police, depending on the situation) aware of what is going on, and any areas where the bullying touches the school should be dealt with.