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Repair Computer, Repurchase OS?

Posted by Cliff on from the doesn't-sound-fair-does-it dept.

An anonymous reader asks: "Recently, I have been bit by a computer repair on an e-Machines computer that involved a system board replacement. Though this was strictly a repair, not an upgrade, neither MS or e-Machines will provide for activation of the system. Why should a user have to purchase another copy of XP after repairing a computer? The system board is listed on the e-Machines website, but costs 4x what an off-the-shelf board with the same chip-set/capabilities costs, and furthermore is not actually available. The e-Machines rep even said repurchasing XP was my only option. This seems to me patently unfair and of questionable legality. Is it possible that there are enough disgruntled consumers bit by this problem to generate a class-action lawsuit?"

39 of 453 comments (clear)

  1. Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by Randolpho · · Score: 5, Informative

    Seriously, have you talked to Microsoft yet? I've had the same or similar problems in the past, and had no trouble getting a new key issued. Just call them up. They might surprise you.

    --
    "Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
    -Marilyn Manson
    1. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Ditto. It's easy and takes around 15 minutes - call the 800 number that the activation screen presents to you, put in the number that it gives you, wait for it to say it cannot activate it and for it to bring on a real person for further help, explain what happened and they'll provide you a number for that. Works like a charm for me.

    2. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by FoamingToad · · Score: 4, Informative

      Agreed. Talk to them. What does the OP have to lose?

      In fact I recently had a pretty identical case to the original poster's query. A friend's e-machine had a blown mobo + processor due to a faulty PSU. I changed the parts across, booted, hit the product activation, phoned the Freephone support number and I didn't even need to speak to a person - the IVR system doled out a new activation code with no hassle.

      Admittedly, if the activation hadn't gone as planned I'd just have dug out my VLK edition and performed an in-place upgrade...

      F_T

    3. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I deal with this frequently.

      Try to activate online
      When it rejects and gives you the phone number, call it
      Enter the confirmation ID

      When you finally get someone from Bangladesh on the phone, they will ask if this is the first time it's been activated, and how many computers it's been installed on.

      REGARDLESS of what work you've done, tell them "It's a reinstall after a virus infection.. This is the only machine it's installed on"

      They'll give you a long ass number to punch in, and you're done.

    4. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're right.

      The article poster might want to refer to this page on computer repair, which covers the OEM license. Generally, Microsoft will not require a new OS license for a motherboard replacement that is truly a replacement (i.e., same OEM/model). If you're trying to replace the box with a non-OEM motherboard, you're hosed, because this is not in compliance with the OEM license agreement, which is different from the retail EULA.

      If you're replacing with the same/equivalent OEM motherboard, then just state immediately that the repair/upgrade was made in compliance with the OEM EULA right away, as this will save you a lot of time and hassle.

      --
      My blog
    5. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by Jesterboy · · Score: 3, Informative

      One thing is, the people in India handling the activation really don't care too much, and, as long as you don't volunteer certain information, will happily hand out the magic 42 digit number that makes everything work. I've even used this to transfer an XP OEM license to an entirely different computer (shhh!).

      However, it sounds like the problem is coming from the install media; perhaps a partition on the drive that copies over a disk image, or maybe an OEM install that checks for the correct hardware? I think the best thing to do would be to go download/find/borrow a real Windows XP disk of the correct "flavor"; probably Home, possibly Media Center, etc. If he does have the actual disk, he could try creating a pre-install environment using BartPE and then adding in the extra drivers for his mobo, but it's probably better to just find a disk.

      Once he actually gets it installed, he'll probably have trouble activating it, which will involve calling Microsoft and going through the following song and dance:
      1. Give the computer your product key.
      2. It will fail, and transfer you to a representative.
      3. They ask for the last 6 digits you gave to the automated system; give it to them and state you are reinstalling Windows XP.
      4. They will ask you several questsions, answer as follows:
      a) Is it installed only on this computer? Yes.
      b) Did you pirate the software or (sometimes) are you using the same OEM disk? Yes.
      c) Are you reinstalling Windows XP? Yes.

      Usually at this point they will give you the magic 42 digit number to make your computer yours again. Occasionally, they will ask about hardware upgrades, in which case you have two options: 1) tell them the truth and don't get your copy to activate, or 2) outright lie. If your scruples won't let you do the latter, you can tell the representative you have something else to go do (probably true), and call back later, hoping for a less diligent employee. As I stated above, I've used this process to switch Windows XP Home OEM licenses to computers with entirely different hardware, so I can't imagine a motherboard giving you too much trouble.

    6. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by gEvil+(beta) · · Score: 4, Funny

      b) Did you pirate the software or (sometimes) are you using the same OEM disk? Yes.

      Sounds like a brilliant plan.

      --
      This guy's the limit!
    7. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 3, Funny

      Just hit random numbers until you get a real person. Or punch the keypad a few times with your fists. At least that way you can get out some of the frustration while you're at it. :D

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    8. Re:Have you actually talked to Microsoft? by FoamingToad · · Score: 3, Informative

      I thought it was 6 * 7 = 42 digits, this may be why you're failing. Sorry, couldn't resist.

      I found that the system had a bit of trouble recognising two subsequent instances of the same digit, and slowed down my input a bit. Sure, it was a bit tedious, but got an activation code from the IVR just fine. However I did notice the automated line was more than a bit glitchy with dropouts and distortion on the line - it's the type of thing the telco I used to work for wouldn't have considered acceptable.

      F_T

  2. IIRC.... by Churla · · Score: 4, Funny

    If I recall correctly there are ways to get around this by calling actual MS support. Usually this involves being the "bullying customer" some. But they will do an over the phone registration. I had to do this when I had to replace the MB in my mother-in-laws computer.

    P.S. - This should also blossom into a beautiful flame war, I would recommend hot cocoa with marshmallows for viewing it.

    --
    I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
  3. They have no way of knowing. by phorest · · Score: 3, Informative

    They simply have no way of knowing.

    That's always a problem with OEM OS loads.This Quick Reference Should clear up some issues for those who are not already aware.

    I always figure in a new OEM copy whenever a board goes. You'll waste more time than is neccessary to try to save $139.00, but you saved a lot of money buying that replacement board from NewEgg. It sucks but other than sending it to (in this case EMachines) neither Microsoft -or- EMachines have no idea what happened to your hardware that your OEM OS is tied to.

    --
    God: When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
  4. Call for an activation code... by VitrosChemistryAnaly · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've had copies of XP that MS wouldn't activate over the web. What did I do? Call the number they give you. The customer rep will ask why you need to re-activate XP. I just say that I did a reinstall. That's it. I've never had problems the 10 or so times that I've done it.

    Have you actually called MS? It's pretty friggin' easy.

    --
    "It's a tarp!" -- Dyslexic Admiral Ackbar
  5. Ask to talk to their manager by halivar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's amazing what you can get if you just bitch enough. Sometimes it's easier just to add another activation to a license to shut someone up.

  6. It depends.... by jizziknight · · Score: 3, Funny

    If it was a direct replacement of the board (same model number, chipset, etc.) and the hard drive was not affected by the repairs (you didn't have to wipe the drive for some reason), you shouldn't need to reinstall the OS at all. If you installed a different board than the original, you might be SOL. If it were me, I'd plug the drive back in and boot up and see what happens. You might get lucky and everything would work fine.

    Now if it's a WGA problem, that's a different story. You'll have to call Microsoft up for that one. Assuming you're not an ass when you call up, you shouldn't have much problem getting them to issue you a new key or something.

    --
    Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
  7. Read your license agreement. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You should do whatever your license agreement says you should do.

    If you can't understand your license agreement, get a lawyer to help you read it.

    If you don't like what it says, get a different OS vendor.

    And please don't mod me down for trolling - it really is important for people to understand the licenses for the stuff they buy - otherwise groups like the RIAA can walk all over everyone. If people started taking EULAs seriously and tried to understand them, more companies would start using reasonable EULAs.

    1. Re:Read your license agreement. by Intron · · Score: 3, Informative

      ProCD, Inc. v. Zeidenberg decided this in 1996, even for an EULA that was not visible at the time of purchase. Great when the store won't accept returns of software that has been opened.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
  8. Time for a new computer by SeaSolder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, if the replacement MoBo costs about 4x what other boards cost, then it is likely in the multiple-hundreds of dollars to replace the thing. My suggestion would tell eMachines to go to "the hot place downstairs", and purchase a new computer from one of the larger manufacturers. You can get them relatively inexpensively, and hey, you could even get one loaded with that abomination called Vista! On another note, you could also repair the computer, and use it to play around with Linux. I have noticed though, that a number of the budget manufacturers don't even include recovery disks with their computers, but rather they have a "recovery partition" on the hard drive. So this is all well and good, until the HD crashes, and your recovery partition is gone. I suppose this is just another case of "You get what you pay for".

  9. Just pirate it by Rix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's less work.

    1. Re:Just pirate it by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In fact the ease of doing the illegal thing is probably slowing the uptake of Linux. If Microsoft were to become even more aggressive in enforcing its licensing provisions, and as well increasing OS prices, we would no doubt see more people and organizations turning to Linux.

      The trend seems to favor this; every time I see a news item on Slashdot along these lines I give a small cheer. Let's hope that MS and DRM really make stealing Vista a much bigger big pain in the neck.

  10. Re:increments by PFI_Optix · · Score: 4, Informative

    My current XP license was originally installed on this:

    Intel D850MD motherboard
    Intel Pentium 4 2.2 Ghz CPU
    512 MB Rambus
    Radeon 7000
    80 GB Western Digital HDD
    CD-RW
    DVD-ROM

    I then replaced the motherboard with a Soyo P4S Dragon Ultra (or something like that) and bought generic DDR RAM.
    Then I bought a GeForce 5200 FX
    When my motherboard's AGP port got flaky, I replaced it with a Soyo P4S-D
    Then I added an Adaptec 1200A and two Seagate 120 MB HDDs on RAID 0 and reinstalled my OS on them
    When my 5200FX was damaged by THAT AGP port getting flaky, I bought an Abit IC7-MaxIII and went with a different Radeon 7000 due to budget constraints.
    I finally got around to getting a better CPU--a P4 3.0E and switched to high-end Corsair RAM.
    Then I bought a Radeon X850 Pro as the last semi-high-end component to go in this system prior to a planned upgrade and switch to Vista this summer.

    Some time In there I replaced my optical drives with a DVD+-RW, and several small hard drives have been in and out to back up data as I changed partitioning schemes twice.

    I've had to call MS three times to have the license reactivated. All three times I've explained that I was replacing bad components or upgrading various things, and all three times they've not given me any grief on reactivation. The anonymous submitter is either doing something wrong, is clueless, or is trolling.

    --
    120 characters for a sig? That's bloody useless.
  11. Re:increments by 'nother+poster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, since many motherboards also supply your network and video IDs then a MB swap changes quite a few "major components" as far as XPs key checker is concerned.

  12. Not an activation issue by Joe5678 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Judging from all the people telling him to get a new activation key from Microsoft, the summary isn't very clear, but this guys problem isn't an activation issue (I think). It's the fact that his OEM Windows disc will not load because it's now detecting that it's not an e-machines computer anymore. e-machines is the problem here.

    1. Re:Not an activation issue by Loki_1929 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You're probably right, but he's still not completely out of luck. If he can get his hands on a Windows XP disc that's the same version (ie Home/Pro, same SP number included, etc) as what was originally installed, he should be able to use the OEM key included with the machine to get Windows installed. He'll then have to call Microsoft and tell them the hard drive went bad, mainboard was replaced, etc, and he should have a fully functional standalone Windows XP installation.

      Vis-a-vis the licensing, Microsoft can blow it out their ass. You purchase a license to run Windows XP when you buy the system, meaning you've paid money to Microsoft. Microsoft can throw all the legalese garbage into the EULA that they like and a court will tell them just where to stick it if they try going after someone doing what I just described above.

      --
      -- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
    2. Re:Not an activation issue by Endo13 · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're probably right, but he's still not completely out of luck. If he can get his hands on a Windows XP disc that's the same version (ie Home/Pro, same SP number included, etc) as what was originally installed, he should be able to use the OEM key included with the machine to get Windows installed. He'll then have to call Microsoft and tell them the hard drive went bad, mainboard was replaced, etc, and he should have a fully functional standalone Windows XP installation. Actually, it's even easier than that. All he needs do is get his hands on an OEM disk for whatever version of XP he has a key for (most likely XP Home). XP install keys differentiate only between Home, Pro, or Media Center, and then between OEM or Retail. Nothing else matters. I work at a PC repair shop, and I've reinstalled WinXP on Dells, HPs, Compaqs, Emachines, and more very often. I use the same disks for all of them, unless the customer happens to have the disks (or restore partion on the hard drive) provided them by the manufacturer.

      When it comes to activation, it will most likely tell you that your product key is invalid. I'm not sure exactly why (my best guess is that they use some kind of generic volume key when they install it the first time), but all you need to is click the "Telephone" button, hit the drop-down menu for your country, and then dial the toll-free number provided. (1-888-571-2048 for USA) You'll get an automated system that blathers on until it finally says "ok, let's get started." At this point, hit 0 on your phone (the system will tell you something like "I see you would like to talk to a representative blah blah blah"), then hit 1. This will connect you to a live human (in India I believe) who can talk more or less plain English, and at any rate understands the numbers you tell them a great deal better than the automated system does. They'll ask you for the first 6 numbers, tell you they need a few seconds to validate it, then they'll ask you some questions. (What software are you activating today? Is this the first time you are activating this software? On how many other computers is this software installed?) After one or two of these questions they'll ask you for the rest of the numbers (you don't need to read the first 6 again). Then they'll say they need a few seconds to validate those, and ask you a couple of the questions (which may or may not be the exact same questions they asked you 30 seconds earlier). Then they'll read off the confirmation numbers 3 at a time, which you'll type in the boxes, and that's pretty much it.

      --
      There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
    3. Re:Not an activation issue by Fez · · Score: 3, Informative

      Even better: The phone system says to *tell* it the numbers, but the numbers on the phone keypad work. They even work for yes/no 1=yes, 2=no. I hate, hate, hate voice recognition systems. Being able to just push the digits like mad is much easier, and speeds the process way up.

      After punching in the numbers, the system still fails to activate -- because Microsoft locks major brand OEM keys to a single automated activation -- but then you do not have to repeat all 50-brazillion digits vocally to the person on the other end.

      I'm not sure where Microsoft's call center is for that, but I suspect they have several. Once I got into a queue where the recording and the person on the other end both had very British accents.

      And now back to the topic at hand: I've seen many motherboards replaced in OEM PCs, and never had a problem getting a key from Microsoft, but I also used generic OEM media and not the CD provided by the manufacturer.

  13. Easy compared to what? by babbling · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When you say it's "easy", are you aware that previous versions of Windows didn't even need a special key that depended on hardware, and that you didn't need to call Microsoft to ask "can I please install the copy of Windows I purchased from you a couple of years ago?" only to be interrogated about why you need a new key.

    I'm sure it's easy relative to what they could put you through, but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"? Especially when Microsoft have gone out of their way to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

    1. Re:Easy compared to what? by n2art2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You cannot be absolute with a relative word. The use of the word "easy" is an opinion and thus relative to the one making that opinion. I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but can we please not berate the grandparent for his use of the word "easy" when you obviously want to attribute it to a state of absolute that the word itself cannot attain.

      Meaning. . . . Get over it.

      --
      Self proclaimed wannabe geek. You know how it is. Most of us who read this stuff probably fit in that category.
    2. Re:Easy compared to what? by Buran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not only that but what about hearing-impaired people like me who find the phone an aggravation and want to be able to do it all online because it's a lot easier to read than it is to listen? Why can't we use the OS' automated activation tools? Why are we in some cases forced to call?

      Seems to me like someone might have a good ADA case here -- why should I not be allowed to use something legally purchased because I am forced to jump through hoops that I can't jump through because of a physical disability? To me, this is as bad as a failure to install a wheelchair ramp.

      --
      i am a soviet space shuttle
    3. Re:Easy compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plus, the windows activation screen provides you with a TTY number to call if you are deaf.

    4. Re:Easy compared to what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Isn't it great that the dishonest people with the pirated copies never have to worry about their activation keys? It's just the folks that do things the right way that get hosed.

    5. Re:Easy compared to what? by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And what if halfway through the call, suddenly an asteroid falls into their living room and then their phone line is cut off!

      Seriously, I know Slashdotters are anti-social and hate talking to people, but can the damned excuses. Either you can use a phone, or you can use TTY. You can come up with crazy situations all day long, but it all comes down to that.

      --
      Comment of the year
    6. Re:Easy compared to what? by Gr8Apes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >>but can we please be absolute when using the word "easy"?

      Actually, speaking absolutely, it *is* easy. Relatively speaking (in relation to how we think it should be) is when it becomes difficult. Actually, it's unbelievably complicated. Why do I need to call anyone when installing software? Needless complications imposed by the manufacturer is why.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    7. Re:Easy compared to what? by MightyYar · · Score: 4, Funny

      So THAT'S why ATMs don't consist of just a big pile of money and a clipboard...

      --
      W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
    8. Re:Easy compared to what? by doctor+proteus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Good point. I work on a blue water sailing vessel with three or four PCs and it is an absolute nightmare if we need to reinstall windows or even adobe creative suite whilst in the middle of the Atlantic. Not to mention data calls are either too slow to do online activation, or cost $14 per minute for single channel ISDN. On top of that we go through so many hard drives due to the boats constant slamming and movement that we are often asked why we have activated so many time in the past. All I can think is why do we have to spend even more money on satcom charges to install licensed software?

      Inevitable solution? (Other than decent backups) simply use a pirated copy and WGA crack. A sad state of affairs indeed.

    9. Re:Easy compared to what? by justfred · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Thus we have the inherent problem of most, if not all DRM - it makes things harder and more annoying for legitimate users, while crackers/thieves/mass copiers will easily find a way around it.

      Personally I have less of a moral problem "stealing" things that are locked down, than things that are opened up. I pay for shareware and most of my entertainment. But having to jump through hoops to run Windows? That's why I recommend Unix or MacOSX. That and the fact that they're so superior.

      Maybe Microsoft could spent more time properly engineering their software in the first place to make it worth buying, and less time trying to keep legitimate owners from "stealing" it?

    10. Re:Easy compared to what? by try_anything · · Score: 5, Funny

      making a phone call and talking to someone for a few minutes is not actually hard

      If that were true, we'd all be out flirting with girls instead of fiddling with our computers and posting on Slashdot.

      (Just kidding, in a yeah-but-maybe-there's-something-to-it way.)

  14. You are screwed.. by daniel422 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I just went through this fiasco while repairing a mobo failure on an HP Media Center PC. As with most OEM PCs these days it came pre-installed with everything and featured only a recovery disk (disc image) for system restore. Changing, upgrading, or altering many of the components onboard (particularly the motherboard) will result in this disk becoming useless. If you read Microsoft's ifo regarding OEM distributions -- they are totally OK with this. THe OEM is only required to provide a recovery disk that lives and dies with the computer (which is practically defined as the motherboard). The OEM install and recovery disks are keyed to some identifier in the motherboard, which requires some hacking to use. I wound up purchasing a new OEM version of Media Center (since they don't make a regular version) from NewEgg and reinstalling everything.
    I was pretty pissed. I felt like I had paid for this OS in the first place, I should have the right to reinstall it as necessary -- from hardware changes/failures/upgrades/whatever. It turns out you don't with most OEMs. A recovery disk is all they are required to provide.
    Here's the link to the forum over at thegreenbutton.com (Windows Media Center site) that tells my tail of woe and what I learned.
    http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/160224.asp x
    Basically, you're screwed without at least on OEM copy of Windows. Then you can at least hack it. If all you've got is a recovery disk than you are hosed. THe same goes for all software that is preinstalled on your drive. You got Word preinstalled? And you changed your mobo? Whoops--it's a new computer now! No software/OS for you!
    I'd love to hear if someone's challenged this in court -- it seems pretty anti-consumer, although I'm sure OEMs save a ton of money and hassle with recovery disks....

  15. Re:eMachines by walt-sjc · · Score: 5, Funny

    I'm having serious doubts about eMachines computers.

    Really? You are having doubts about the quality of one of the least expensive computers on the market???? I'm shocked. Totally shocked. I would have never expected in a million years that the quality of such a low-priced, low-end machine wasn't very good....

    I think you should immediately turn over the machine to the Geek Squad, and pay them big bucks to tell you that, indeed, the eMachine is a pile of crap. Those guys know. They are experts after all...

    What? Was that a little too sarcastic?

  16. It's like I said by tkrotchko · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For all intents and purposes, there is no pirating of Windows XP. Yeah, sure, there is a handful of people who build their own and of those, a handful pirate Windows XP.

    But if you have a Dell, HP, IBM, Lenovo, eMachines, regardless of what MS says about activation, that machine is licensed forever. It has to be, since none of those machines offers machines to the U.S. public without Windows. And yes, I'm aware of the Dell "N" series. I don't think it makes any difference.

    That's the lie of the statement that 25% of all Windows installs are illegal. How can that be when almost every computer already comes with the license.

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you