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Is Computer Programming a Good Job for Retirees?

braindrainbahrain asks: "Ask Slashdot has been rife with career advice lately, so maybe I can get some too. I hit a milestone recently, the big five oh, and the realization of retirement is starting to settle in. The trouble is, I don't want to sit around, play golf, or even travel that much. I work in a technical field, but I have always enjoyed programming. Indeed, I do it as a hobby. I wonder what you readers would think about programming as a post retirement job. It seems well suited for a retiree, one could do contract work for a few months of the year, in some cases work from home even. By way of background, I have worked in hardware engineering for a very long time, and have pursued graduate study almost regularly (two Masters degrees so far). Should I begin preparing for a post-retirement career in computer science?"

147 comments

  1. That depends by plover · · Score: 5, Funny

    Should I begin preparing for a post-retirement career in computer science?

    I don't know, are you willing to relocate to India?

    --
    John
    1. Re:That depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Parent is right on point.


      I've worked on the periphery of coding jobs for years, code OK myself, wish I could do more - as it's what I love.


      But our office is currently staffed with H1Bs from South Asia for new programming chores, and I've heard that most of the US Citizen programmers in the company will soon be joining you in sudden retirement.


      For me that means that I'm probably doomed to either standing outside the programming window and looking in, or working in a job where I use my best business insight to guide programmers (who are probably working elsewhere - and it's not just India any more - South America is coming online).


      Maybe that's a better course for you, too.


      As James McMurtry says: "We can't make it here anymore...".

    2. Re:That depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, you know what would be even more fun and rewarding? Lobbying! Yeah, lobbying your country's politicians to introduce heavy tariffs on foreign technical workers.

    3. Re:That depends by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I REALLY wish people would start to learn the difference between CS and Software Engineering...

    4. Re:That depends by 6Yankee · · Score: 1

      That depends

      Honestly... Someone asks about retirees and the first reply is a joke about incontinence.

      I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you!

    5. Re:That depends by Haeleth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hey, you know what would be even more fun and rewarding? Lobbying! Yeah, lobbying your country's politicians to introduce heavy tariffs on foreign technical workers.
      Sure, if you want all the companies to move overseas instead, while you simultaneously spark a major trade war with every emerging power.

      If you care about the American economy, on the other hand, your time would be better spent working out why companies want to go to the considerable effort of hiring foreign workers instead of using the local talent. Then maybe you could start lobbying your fellow Americans either to acknowledge that their pay demands are unreasonable for a commodity skill like programming, or to go out there and get the extra skills and experience they must lack, if jumping through bureaucratic hoops to hire an H1B is the most appealing prospect.
    6. Re:That depends by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 1

      He IS from India. I mean, come on, two masters? What red blooded native born American is going to be that naive?

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
  2. You can't teach an old dog new tricks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

    And in dog years, you are 350, which is very very very old.

  3. Overqualified by EveryNickIsTaken · · Score: 3, Interesting
    "By way of background, I have worked in hardware engineering for a very long time, and have pursued graduate study almost regularly (two Masters degrees so far)."

    Good luck getting a response to your resume with that background. Companies will see your credentials, assume they'd have to pay too much since you're "overqualified" and instantly send you a flush letter.

    1. Re:Overqualified by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

      Most companies don't bother to respond at all these days unless the response is positive. Rejection letters are a thing of the past.

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    2. Re:Overqualified by sottitron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Might not be the case if he has a cover letter that concisely states your salary requirements and explains that he doesn't really want to retire into a golf, travel, or idle lifestyle.

    3. Re:Overqualified by Glonoinha · · Score: 3, Interesting

      He may be overqualified on paper to work the sort of entry level jobs that would be a good start for him, and under qualified to justify the kind of money a corp might envision him wanting - but if he is 50 and retiring loves to do this as a hobby (and has some serious fiscal reserves, the kind that makes doing it as a hobby viable) - he may be just the kind of man we want teaching our next generation of entry level developers.

      Think about it - how many of us started out on machines that booted directly into a shell that had BASIC built right in, let us start 'coding' little mickey mouse programs, and we spent hours and hours copying BASIC programs from magazines into our little 1MHz 6502 based computers with 32k of usable memory (if we were lucky) - but we were making the baby steps necessary to become true programmers. How many of us could bang out a bubble sort in at least one language by the time we were 15? How many 15 year olds do you know now than can do it now?

      If the OP wants to make more money, not sure I can help him.
      If the OP wants to make a lasting and meaningful contribution - buy (or fish out of the trash) and refurb a dozen computers that are so old they don't even qualify as door-stops (ie TRS-80, C=64, VIC-20, PC-AT class machines in the MHz (not GHz) class with floppy disks and dot matrix printers and CLI tools like DOS 6.22, GWBASIC, the DOS versions of FoxPro, Borland's Turbo Pascal and C++, some terminal emulation software and dial-up modems, maybe even an assembler and the source to some of the really old viruses, and a ton of old magazines with source code in them so the kids can copy-type in the source, see what it does.

      To paraphrase a touching scene from '13th Warrior' - a man whose coding skills lives on in an entire next generation of software engineers, this is a wealthy man indeed.

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    4. Re:Overqualified by 4D6963 · · Score: 1

      Most companies don't bother to respond at all these days unless the response is positive. Rejection letters are a thing of the past.

      Funny, because out of all the relatively large companies (most of the time 100+ employees) I have contacted, on the rougly 200 letters I've sent I received maybe 60-70 rejection letters. Much more than I'd ask for.

      --
      You just got troll'd!
    5. Re:Overqualified by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      How many of us could bang out a bubble sort in at least one language by the time we were 15?
      I still can't write a bubble sort off the top of my head. I know Insertion Sort is harder to write, but I can always figure it out, because I remember why the algorithm actually works. I was 17 when I took Pascal, and doing homework assignments a few months ahead of where the class was, so when I got to the sorting assignment (which I'm sure was intended to be solved with a bubblesort), I thought about what I did when I had to physically sort something, and reinvented Selection Sort. Of course, now that I've been taking CS classes for 13 years, when I have to physically sort something it looks more like a cross between Merge Sort and Radix Sort.

      and a ton of old magazines with source code in them so the kids can copy-type in the source, see what it does.
      Did this actually work for you? I have a little after school computer class around fourth grade where we typed in code listings on Commodore PET's and 64's, and then watched them run. Since the teacher never explained why any of it worked, I assumed computer programming was beyond me, and wrongly dismissed it for the next seven years.

    6. Re:Overqualified by Glonoinha · · Score: 1

      Did it work for me? I firmly believe that it's the only real way to get started. Kind of like the first few years of cooking, where you simply follow the recipe and put in a cup of flour, a tablespoon of baking powder and a handfull of chocolate chips, etc - you don't learn to cook by reading, you learn to cook by cooking.

      And odds are, when you were eight years old computer programming was beyond you - it involved concepts way over your head. So was cooking, but that doesn't mean you couldn't open a bag of pre-mixed ingredients, add a cup of milk and pop it in the oven to make some tasty cookies. As I recall, when I was eight years old I wasn't particularly good at the syntax of English (my native language), much less a computer language.

      Assuming the code is good, clean and representative of good practices in the first place, though - simply copy-typing it in and getting it to run, a couple hours per week (ok let's be honest - little compu-junkies like me did it 20+ hours a week) and your brain will recognize patterns, cause and effect, and the next step is taking what you have there and tweaking it to do what you want (ie, changing an 'if' statement in a program so you can get past that set of code and run the part you want.) The step after that is breaking down what you have into the pieces that do different things and actually constructing small programs of original design and intent, made of parts you reused from previous working applications. Finally you go on to just sitting down and cranking out code. And once you know what code can do, the next step is designing your (larger) applications around the functionality that you know you can apply using the tools (code) you know and have available.

      Imagine where you would have gone had you just kept on banging on that PET / 64, copy typing in code that you didn't quite understand (and letting the natural evolution I described above happen for those seven years.)

      --
      Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
    7. Re:Overqualified by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      I firmly believe that it's the only real way to get started.
      Maybe if you don't have a teacher. My high school Pascal class didn't operate that way at all. We started with a basic "Hello World", then put the "Hello World" string into a variable, then did it in a simple for loop, etc.

      Imagine where you would have gone had you just kept on banging on that PET / 64, copy typing in code that you didn't quite understand (and letting the natural evolution I described above happen for those seven years.)
      Probably nowhere. I don't learn that way. I have coworkers who obviously do, and they'll get up to speed with a new tool faster than me, but I'll be expert at it long before any of them.

      Also, doing things I don't understand has absolutely no appeal for me, so it likely would've further entrenched the idea that I don't like programming.

    8. Re:Overqualified by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      The reason you can't do a bubblesort is because you probably haven't really played with the alogorithm or you don' know the algorithm.

      As for whether typing in magazine listings will help one or not depends on whether or not the person asks the next question which is "What does this do and how does it do it?" Once one does that and then work with the code to determine the answer, one has learned the code.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    9. Re:Overqualified by Doctor+Faustus · · Score: 1

      The reason you can't do a bubblesort is because you probably haven't really played with the alogorithm or you don' know the algorithm.
      I have understood the algorithm; I just can't remember why it works for more than a few weeks, for some reason.

    10. Re:Overqualified by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

      I sent out over 1000 cover+resume packages between Jan 2002 and Aug 2004, and I think I received around 20 or 25 rejection responses in total, most of those in response to paper/snailmail applications.

      Not a very large percentage as far as I'm concerned. But it may depend on the positions you're applying for. I was mainly looking for programming or PC/Network support postions.

      --
      Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
      The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
    11. Re:Overqualified by JWSmythe · · Score: 1


          You're so right. Well, actually the first reply is right, they won't even contact you.

          I'm having that problem now. Not that I'm over educated, but I'm over experienced. I guess the years that I've been doing my work overshadows most other people.

          Unfortunately, I'm to the point that I *NEED* a job. I don't care if it's a lower job, under someone who doesn't know half of what I know. Eventually they'll move on or be fired, and I can move up to a position I deserve. :) For now, as long as it puts food on the table, it's all I need. My ego can rest quietly for a few years before I feed it again.

      --
      Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
  4. Absolutely! by Overzeetop · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As everyone knows, those of us who are trying to make a living and save for retirement just love to have retired folks enter our field and offer their services at "hobbiest" rates. Yeah, top of our list for things that make our day. You know, keeps us on our toes - makes us more competitive.

    There's nothing like having to compete with someone who (a) doesn't have a family to support (b) a mortgage to pay (c) has a pention/retirement income and - this is the one that gets us all warm and fuzzy - is getting paid the same Social Security check that we spend 15% of our paycheck supporting, and will not exist by the time we retire.

    I just want to be the first to say - "thanks".

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:Absolutely! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Compared to the 3,000,000 starving Indians who will do the same job for $1/day, I don't think you've got a whole lot to worry about from the submitter.

    2. Re:Absolutely! by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't code. In fact, I do something that typically requires local expertise. Still, it happens in a lot of places where there are retirees who think and extra couple thousand bucks might be nice, so they enter the market. And they put someone out of business as a result. But, hey - they manage to fill their time so they weren't bored.

      Again - this hasn't happened to me, but I know certain places where this has occured (can you say Florida?).

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    3. Re:Absolutely! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So? Supply, demand, prices, etc?

      Are you saying they have an obligation to be idle so some schmuck who can't compete can get work? Communist much?

    4. Re:Absolutely! by arminw · · Score: 1

      .....I do something that typically requires local expertise.....

      If you live in a small community, word will spread if you are willing and able to solve the many problems people have with their computers. It will make you many friends and perhaps a few dollars. Keeping older computers out of landfills by making them still useful to their owners is a good deed for the environment as well.

      --
      All theory is gray
    5. Re:Absolutely! by DuckDodgers · · Score: 1

      Let's generalize your wisdom:

      Nobody should be willing to work in the field I am in for less money than I want to earn, because the competition hurts me.

      Is that about right? By the same logic, people who have higher standard of living costs (maybe they live in the Silicon Valley or just prefer to commute in a Rolls Royce) are getting screwed over by your existence in the work force. If you want to keep older folks out, maybe you should be fair and remove yourself from the job pool too.

      It's simply supply and demand. If you don't like it, maybe you should join organizations trying to switch the international capitalist markets to another economic model: socialism, communism, participatory economics (aka ParEcon), or something similar. As long as you work in a somewhat capitalist market (I realize it is not purely capitalist/laissez-faire), the same right you have to compete for jobs at a certain level extends to anyone else.

  5. That depends on if you like to wirte TPS reports by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    and sit though meetings all the time read Dilbert for more info about this type of work.

  6. No... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its my chosen field of study, i dont want you to go taking up the jobs before i graduate :(

  7. Too soon to say by Oswald · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ask me again in 20 years. I'm going to retire from my first 25-year career in 2008. After that, I plan to spend a lot of my time programming for fun and (meager) profit. If I never accomplish anything more than contributing to open source software, I'll still have a good time. If I actually make a career of it, so much the better.

  8. Great - more low priced competition by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's bad enough with college kids and qualified immigrants working for peanuts, now we're going to have people who don't need the money at all? (PS - I'm 100% in favour of college kids and immigrants - I think immigrants are exactly what USA and Canada need - just puh-leeese charge a competitive wage and stop fucking this profession over!)

  9. Just great.... by rice_web · · Score: 3, Funny

    Even more competition in the workplace? Oh hell no....

    While we're pondering cre-azy ideas, how about we revive that euthanasia debate?

    --
    The Political Programmer
    1. Re:Just great.... by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      Or from the other viewpoint, how about some infanticide.

    2. Re:Just great.... by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Infantacide destroys the future. Patricide (euthanasia) destroys the past.

      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
  10. I wouldn't do it. by Bluesman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have a rule.

    Anything that you enjoy doing instantly becomes much less fun the moment you are doing it because you are required to, for whatever reason.

    If you enjoy programming as a hobby, why not just continue to do it as a hobby? There are plenty of open source projects that would benefit tremendously from having an extra hand, especially one that doesn't have many other commitments. There are so many projects I wish I had time to work on, but other obligations get in that way. The time you have is such a luxury.

    --
    If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    1. Re:I wouldn't do it. by Mattintosh · · Score: 2

      You, sir, are a diplomat. Given the tone of the rest of the posts in this discussion, yours is quite remarkable. You don't just back up the other guys in saying "we'll stay off your lawn if you stay out of our jobs", but you give an actual valid reason for him to do so. Kudos.

      Oh, and to the "old" guy, this guy has the right idea. Retirement isn't about travel or golf or lounging around growing mold. It's about doing what you want to do after doing what you had to do. If you want to do some dev work, do it. Don't let the geeks and suits tell you that you can't, won't, or shouldn't.

      Interestingly enough, as I type this, the quote at the bottom of the page is "You need more time; and you probably always will."

    2. Re:I wouldn't do it. by Achoi77 · · Score: 1

      In agreement with the poster above, the last thing you want to deal with especially when you are nearing retirement, is to continue on with the stress and drama of the office politics. If you love to code, by all means go all out and start doing it 'full-time.'

      That way you can do all the work you loved doing previously, and at the same time you can free your hands of all the nitty gritty /dirty world of business that prevents/slows you from doing the stuff you love in the first place. You can perfect your code and not worry about shipping a half-assed product because of impossible time restraints or other considerations.

      Unless of course, you're into that :-)

      if it's incentive or motivation that prevents you from getting any 'work' done(because you have all the time in the world to do it, no deadlines, nobody breathing down your neck), then perhaps something else is on your mind, but you're not letting yourself admit it.

      Or maybe you're just lazy. (not that there is anything wrong with it!) :-P

      once you're retired, you have the opportunity to create whatever you want to create! Do it the way you want to do it!

    3. Re:I wouldn't do it. by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Anything that you enjoy doing instantly becomes much less fun the moment you are doing it because you are required to, for whatever reason
      That was not my experience. I still love
      programming, even doing it as a job. *Dont*
      tell my boss... :-)
      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    4. Re:I wouldn't do it. by wrook · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree with this advice, but maybe I'll put a bit of a spin on it. Writing Free software doesn't *have* to be done as a hobby. You can make good money from it. As an older person (geez, as a 40 year old, 50 doesn't really sound so much older anymore :-P ), you probably have some decent business experience. I would leverage this experience. And if you have some financial security, there's no reason you can't just take some risk and start working for yourself.

      Many people are confused about how to start a business around Free software. The very best resource I've found is this short chapter written by Michael Tiemann:

      http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/ti emans.html

      This is from the guy (along with 2 buddies) that turned a $6,000 investment into $600 million of Redhat Stock. Not only that, but he somehow managed to get an executive position there as well. Along the way, they made their fair share of money (by the end of their first year they had sold $725,000 in contracts). IIRC, Cygnus was pulling in about $32 million a quarter when Redhat bought them.

      My favorite quote: He's discussing using the GNU manifesto as a business plan. "if everybody thinks it's a great idea, it probably is, and if nobody thinks it will work, I'll have no competition!". As it turns out, I think he was right on both accounts. In fact, I'm still hard pressed to name more than a handful of companies who operate in the way that Cygnus did. So much opportunity wasted...

    5. Re:I wouldn't do it. by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      I actually enjoy programming more. I think its because what Im doing has purpose instead of just doing little things here and there.

      Its funny, because at one point I resisted taking a job in programming because I thought it would be less fun that way, and I wouldnt want to do it at work and at home, too. I dont do nearly as many personal projects now, but I definitely have more fun.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    6. Re:I wouldn't do it. by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      I have not thought of it that way, but you have hit the nail right on the head.

      Been doing it professionally for more than 12 years now, still loving it.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    7. Re:I wouldn't do it. by plover · · Score: 1

      Anything that you enjoy doing instantly becomes much less fun the moment you are doing it because you are required to, for whatever reason.

      Actually, I have had the opposite experience. I advocate doing what you love; if someone is willing to pay you for it, so much the better! I feel really bad for the people who wake up each morning and head off to a job they hate.

      --
      John
    8. Re:I wouldn't do it. by dwarfking · · Score: 1

      Another option to consider is offering to do development work for non-profit charity groups. Many of them can benefit from systems, either custom written or created from various open source offerings, but have little in the way of budget. They usually aren't target clients for the group that is telling you to 'stay off their lawn'.

      The upside of working with these groups is you're usually working with people who aren't there just to get a paycheck, they believe in the work they do, and that attitude in others can make for a pleasant work experience.

  11. Open Source! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I would highly recommend open source. An open source tool that I use regularly has a retired contributor whos input is highly valued, appreciated and eventually incorporated into the product. Compare that to $CORPORATION which will axe you at the first chance. There is no other option.

    Indeed I wish I could contribute to my favourite open source projects when I retire.

    For a list of open source projects, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open_source_s oftware_packages

    I bet there would be a bunch of stuff to make a hardware geek like you giddy!

    Best of luck and congratulations!

  12. Where are you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Depends on which country you are located in.

  13. Hmmm by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If you are retiring at 50 you have serious financial security. So I suggest you treat it as a hobbie instead of job. Do it for yourself, not somebody else. Maybe it will turn into something that makes money for you. But if you do it for some company then they own your work. Give yourself more freedom.

    Of course, if you manage to find a company that you mesh with and the projects you work on are the same thing you would do by yourself, then by all means, go for it. The team envrionment can be rewarding.

    Just try to get out of the cubicle as much as possible. You'll be dead in ten years if you don't. Or close anyway.

    TLF

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    1. Re:Hmmm by timpaton · · Score: 1
      If you are retiring at 50 you have serious financial security.

      He may be faced with two financial options:

      • remain a wage-slave at his current job until he's 60 to accumulate enough wealth to see him through
      • quit his current job at 50 and do something that he enjoys more, even if it means working until he's 70 in order to keep bread on the table

      I don't think "retire at 50 and live a life of leisure for the rest of my days" was ever raised as an option.

  14. Go for it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you like problem solving, like to learn new things, enjoy working with computers, then definitely go for it.


    You didn't mention if you can survive off your current retirement savings, but if you can that I think there's even more reason to do it. You'll have the flexibility to offer your services to groups that usually can't afford to hire expensive programmers (think non-profit national science organizations, smaller mom and pop shops, etc...) or you can contribute to open source projects.


    I think the best part of it, though, is that if you try out a certain technology (say web programming) and hate it, then you can jump to something else. There's nothing forcing you to have one speciality and you can figure out the skills required once you have a solid enough foundation (there is so much information available online and it's usually free).


    Only you know if this type of thing fits you. But I will say that if anyone tells you that you're too old, or that your brain isn't flexible enough, pay attention to what they say and the prove them wrong.

  15. Enjoy your life. by tempest69 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Ok, first off, programming for someone else is really a test of patience. While programing on its own is a great endeavour, having someone tell you how it should work will be as bad as whatever you're dealing with as an electrical engineer.

    That being said, if you love code, then delve into open source, find something that you want to fix and fix it. It will feel great. If you really enjoy programming you can just keep going. If you need to find some spare cash, then you can point to your hobby work that is in the current distro of Centos or Ubuntu. And wind up with a survivable paycheck, or you can marry the feilds you know and wind up with a big ole paycheck. It is relativly hard to find a programmer with masters level domain knowlege in two fields. Ok its not that hard, if flash more than $50/hour

    Good luck

    Storm

  16. Yes! by turgid · · Score: 0

    I'd say it's an excellent occupation for retirees. After all, anything that fills your time that doesn't involving driving around at 45 miles per hour in your Nissan Micra on the public highway, or taking all lunch-hour to cash your pension at the post office, is surely a benefit to society.

    1. Re:Yes! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > driving around at 45 miles per hour in your Nissan Micra

      Hey! We're not all like that!

      I'm at least in the upper 3-4% of driver speeds on average, and probably the upper fraction of one percent around corners, where those huge lumbering SUVs wallow around so slowly. There's a cloverleaf near my house where I can't ever remember someone keeping up with me, in 8 or 9 years of driving in this area. But then, I have a really good suspension and sticky tires. I'll wump any 25 year old punk ricer around that thing. :)

      Retiree != slow driver. Although surely many are.

    2. Re:Yes! by turgid · · Score: 1

      Heh :-) My cynicism gets the better of me. In 18 years, I'll be 50. The rate time goes past now, it'll be the blink of an eye. I don't seem to be making a good job of my life so far.

  17. Ugh, the hobbyist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some of the worst code I've seen has been written by old guys who really approach their job as "hobbyists" as opposed to professionals.

    If you're willing to start out as a total junior, getting paid next to nothing (because next to nothing will be expected), and you're will to LEARN and do it the way you're ASKED to do it, then sure.

    Otherwise, forget it, I wouldn't recommend it.

  18. Computer science!=programming by plopez · · Score: 1

    That's the first point I would make. If you like hardware then a CS AI pursuit might be robotics. You would probaby need a phd to pursue it seriously. If you just want to do some programming I would say find an OSS project, or create one, and do it as a hobby. Do not, however, get caught up in commercial software develoment as that would make your retirement very unpleasent.

    --
    putting the 'B' in LGBTQ+
    1. Re:Computer science!=programming by Shados · · Score: 1

      Well, the awkward thing is, while for every definition of it, Computer Science is indeed != Programming, in the common vocabularies lately (including in schools!), it is. Its sad, and it annoyes me, but we can't do much about it. A lot of (even prestigious-ish) universities call their Software engineering courses "Computer Science", or have software engineering classes as part of the CS department. (Almost) all companies that are looking to hire programmers fetch computer science graduates, etc. There is a very very clear cut line between computer science and programming/software engineering (and even the later two have quite the difference, though are more related), when it comes to theory and all. In the practical world, aside for the minority who come out of high end schools and are lucky to find a job as a computer scientist (where they most likely wont do -any- programming), virtually all computer science graduates end up programmers.

      And its easy to see why: very few schools offers undergraduate software engineering degrees. So if you want to be a programmer with a diploma, computer science is usualy the way to go. Awkward too, since that makes for a lot of CS majors who don't really use what they learned, and a lot of underqualified software engineers.

    2. Re:Computer science!=programming by pyite · · Score: 1

      Awkward too, since that makes for a lot of CS majors who don't really use what they learned, and a lot of underqualified software engineers.

      It's so true. I'm an engineering applied sciences major (left MechE after I decided that the MechE curriculum didn't allow me to take as many math classes as I wanted to). I had always maintained and was somewhat pedantic about the programming/computer science difference. After taking a software engineering class in EE/CompE department, I came to understand the even further intricities of development. Software engineering is a cool thing and it's a shame that so many people graduating and becoming programmers have no experience with it whatsoever.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    3. Re:Computer science!=programming by Shados · · Score: 1

      Indeed. The problem stem from the fact that people think (rightly so) that one should be taught generic concepts as to not be died to a certain environment. Which is great, but then they pushed it too far. Its possible to come out of some of the top CS schools (from which Microsoft, Google, IBM, you name it, hire a TON of people for programming jobs) without even knowing what a design pattern is.

      Because of that, currently at my job Im quickly becoming the guru of software developement, even though I just have an associate degree and a few years experience, because I specialized myself in it. I work in a very large IT department for a fortune 500. So the concept is totally insane: I'm self taught! But its not that Im good: its everyone thats worse, since they all did pure CS degrees, and the seniors all got promoted to various analyst/project manager positions (but I was semi-recently hired, so that leaves...me).

    4. Re:Computer science!=programming by tverbeek · · Score: 1

      ... aside for the minority who come out of high end schools and are lucky to find a job as a computer scientist (where they most likely wont do -any- programming), virtually all computer science graduates end up programmers.
      They do? I have a CS degree, and despite spending a lot of time coding in college, I don't do much of it today. Other than hacking a little HTML and PHP, my job is mostly system administration, network maintenance, training, support, and building the occasional system out of spare parts. I'm about as fluent in C as I am in Spanish (which I haven't used since college either). Looking through my CS department's alumni database, I do see a lot of people in programming jobs, but plenty of other positions as well. Not that I'm complaining that my college education was inapplicable (the skill of problem-solving is always applicable), but I'm neither a programmer nor any kind of "real" Computer Scientist (e.g. research, theory, teaching). I'm a CS grad whose jobs have all involved hardware and people more than code. And I'm far from the only one out here.
      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    5. Re:Computer science!=programming by AlXtreme · · Score: 1
      Interesting thoughts, and I agree with you: software development isn't being taught (well). The problem as I see it is that the mediocre developers get their degrees and leave for a company. Like you did, very few of those actually get to grips with proper software development. Unfortunately, the people ending up teaching software development have even less affinity and experience with software development than your average programmer.

      After having completed an AI degree and wrapping up a CS degree with a pinch of software development beside my own consultancy company, all I can say about SD is: those who can't, teach.

      --
      This sig is intentionally left blank
    6. Re:Computer science!=programming by Shados · · Score: 1

      My apologies, my point was that they didn't end up as computer scientist. I mistakenly dumped all non-"pure CS" jobs in the programming category. Silly me. I had in mind, when I posted, my fiancee's school (she went to CMU), where in the last batch of data they have, something like 80% of the students got hired for software engineer position. Half of the rest was like (going from memory) related jobs, a few like you in admin and whatsnot, then you have 1-2 that do actual CS (My numbers are wrong, because I didnt see it in a while, but you get the idea).

    7. Re:Computer science!=programming by tverbeek · · Score: 0

      Ah. I understand now. But I suspect the same pattern applies to most academic disciplines: you get a minority who go on to further develop that field of knowledge, and the majority go on to actually do something practical. :)

      --
      http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    8. Re:Computer science!=programming by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      It is very common for people in IT/programming to believe they are the top shit. I'm not saying you are or you aren't, but I'm just saying is all.

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
    9. Re:Computer science!=programming by Shados · · Score: 1

      You're absolutely right! God thing I specifically said I wasn't good, else some people might get the wrong idea. Oh, wait...

    10. Re:Computer science!=programming by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

      Oh sure, 'it's not that you're good, it's just that everyone else is worse'. Yeah, everyone else is worse. Do you also think everyone has it in for you?

      --

      --

      WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  19. Some keys to success by heretic108 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Some keys to success:

    1.  
    2. Confine yourself (at least 80%) to work that you actually love. If you commit to doing stuff you don't enjoy, you'll be very prone to burnout.

    3.  
    4. Be independent, find and exploit market niches; your independence can give you an operational agility long lost by larger outfits. If you keep your overheads down, you'll have good margins on all kinds of enjoyable 'nickel and dime' jobs, and be very competitive against larger operators.

    5.  
    6. Always keep your eyes open to gaps in the market

      --
      -- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
      1. Re:Some keys to success by SheeEttin · · Score: 1

        I think you skipped a a few steps.

      2. Re:Some keys to success by chromatic · · Score: 1

        Maybe #7 is "Don't tell everyone everything you know."

    7. This association is not correct... by d2_m_viant · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is Computer Programming a Good Job for Retirees?

      Should I begin preparing for a post-retirement career in computer science?
      ...computer science != programming
      1. Re:This association is not correct... by Darkn3ss · · Score: 1

        Yes, it really is. In computer science, you learn HOW to program through learning algorithms and given a spec, you do it from scratch. Computer Engineering on the other hand, is, we have a problem, how do we come up with a solution? Computer Engineers architect what the program looks like, how things interact, etc. They essentially create the spec's that the computer scientists end up programming. Granted, some companies call CS majors engineers for whatever reason they have, and in some schools, a CS degree carries more weight than an Engineering degree, but not from the type of schools I would ever hire from. Sorry, but the association was actually correct.

      2. Re:This association is not correct... by dubyadee · · Score: 1

        Computer Science is a form of applied mathematics. Computer programming is an implementation which can be performed by skilled tradesmen if the computer scientist (assuming the problem is difficult enough to require one) can specify the solution. Many computer scientists program or know how to program, but not all do and it is not a requirement.

    8. I suggest unpaid, open source, work by ClosedSource · · Score: 1

      If you're over 50 it's tough enough to find a programming job even when you are highly qualified. I don't think very many companies would be interested in hiring you unless they make a practice of hiring retirees for other jobs in the company.

    9. Ever think about Teaching? by quizteamer · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I know you mentioned that you have two Masters. Assuming that they are in a technical field, have you considered teaching? Many community colleges hire part time people who have come out of industry and have the proper degrees. It is tough work, but can be rewarding with a good group of students. I wouldn't suggest High School work (the Certification process is lengthy and it isn't part time work), but teaching programming at a local school could be an alternative to a job in programming.

      --
      Live Long and Prosper
      1. Re:Ever think about Teaching? by Ray+Radlein · · Score: 1

        Let me second this post. Not everyone has the temperament for teaching, of course, but if you do, then small technical colleges and night schools are a terrific environment for part-time teaching. Coming in cold, they would probably want you to teach some kind of "Computer literacy" course (or perhaps some application-specific training course like "MS-Office for Beginners") just to see how you teach, before they turn over a programming class to you; but IMHO it's a great experience.

    10. On the contrary by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      I should have completed my thought. This would be a wonderful thing to get involved in on a personal level. Do some OSS stuff, go help the local charity that doesn't have the cash to pay for a support person. Get involved in the community.

      But please don't take your pension and my social security and offer services which are priced lower than normal wholesale costs. In the international arena it's called dumping and it's illegal. Remember - this guy is being supported on SS (or will be in a few years - by the time he's worth anything) - so it's not exactly apples to apples.

      And I'm not really worried that one guy is going to topple the system. It's more a suggestion to the retired community as a whole - please don't go competing with the working folk for "real" work. Get out, enjoy yourself, channel your efferts into making the community better. Who knows, maybe if the baby boomers tried a little harder to work on their communities, there might not be quite the need for all the taxes we pay to keep those things going on the public dole. (Now I am waxing theoretical!)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
      1. Re:On the contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

        Get out, enjoy yourself...

        What I think you're missing is that no matter what your job is, if it involves computers and IT, someone, somewhere, will enjoy doing it for free.

        That's going to be a "problem" for everybody from musicians to Microsoft employees, as more and more grunt work is automated and more and more individuals are empowered to do whatever they want with their lives. Based on the sentiments in your posts about not wanting to compete with people who don't really need the money or the work, I'd say you are the very model of a modern Don Quixote. You need to change your attitudes at a very fundamental level, or the rest of your life is going to suck hard .

        I'm not trolling, or kidding for that matter. Find ways to deliver value that only you can bring.

      2. Re:On the contrary by jrockway · · Score: 1

        And I'm not really worried that one guy is going to topple the system. It's more a suggestion to the retired community as a whole - please don't go competing with the working folk for "real" work. Get out, enjoy yourself, channel your efferts [sic] into making the community better. Who knows, maybe if the baby boomers tried a little harder to work on their communities, there might not be quite the need for all the taxes we pay to keep those things going on the public dole. (Now I am waxing theoretical!)
        Why don't you STFU and do the same?
        --
        My other car is first.
      3. Re:On the contrary by putaro · · Score: 2, Interesting

        Supported by Social Security? The maximum monthly payment from Social Security is $2116. I don't know about you, but that's a lot less than I'm making monthly right now. If my investments don't pay off well, I'm going to be coding at 75 just to keep afloat. The whole concept of retirement is going to have to be rethought as we move past the era where the number of younger workers greatly exceeds the number of retirees and as life expectancy after retirement age increases.

      4. Re:On the contrary by crimson30 · · Score: 1

        "Supported by Social Security? The maximum monthly payment from Social Security is $2116. I don't know about you, but that's a lot less than I'm making monthly right now. If my investments don't pay off well, I'm going to be coding at 75 just to keep afloat. The whole concept of retirement is going to have to be rethought as we move past the era where the number of younger workers greatly exceeds the number of retirees and as life expectancy after retirement age increases."

        Are you saying that you can't survive off of $2116 a month?

      5. Re:On the contrary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

        Maybe because he's at a different stage of his life and has a family to feed, a mortgage to pay, etc...?? But no, you obviously didn't think of that, you just had to spout off an insulting command instead.

      6. Re:On the contrary by putaro · · Score: 1

        There's a big difference between surviving and living the way I would like to. This is not a knock against Social Security. It's not supposed to be your entire retirement plan. In many parts of the country, $2116 a month does not go very far. I'm currently living outside of the US but when I move back I'll be living somewhere in California. The apartment I used to live in in SF that was around $1200 a month back in the mid-90's is now over $3000 a month. Even a lousy apartment in a bad neightborhood will set you back $800.

        If I have a choice between working to have a decent lifestyle and staying in a skid-row apartment or living in west BF I'll take working.

      7. Re:On the contrary by crimson30 · · Score: 1

        To each his own, I guess. I would much prefer not working. To the extent that I moved out of California (used to live in Mountain View) and have barely worked in the last 4 years.

        Unless you have opportunities to make extraordinary amounts of money in SF, I don't know that I'd pick SF in particular as a place to live (SF is nice... but at what cost?). Why not someplace like Monterey or Santa Cruz? You know, nice, but lacking the completely insane high cost of living.

      8. Re:On the contrary by Money+for+Nothin' · · Score: 1

        $2116 = $25,392/year = $12.70/hour (at 2000 hours/year = 40 hours/week * 50 weeks/year).

        The poverty level for 2006 was around $18,300 (IIRC).

        $25k/year isn't bad for somebody who isn't doing a damn thing to earn it. That's more than a relative of mine made in a large midwestern city as a full-time secretary in a doctor's office - and she had to support 2 kids.

      9. Re:On the contrary by putaro · · Score: 1

        Well, SF is my home town for one. I do have opportunities to make obscene amounts of money in the Valley as well. Or not as is often the case :-). Monterey and Santa Cruz are only cheap by comparison to the rest of the area - when you look at the rest of the US they're still pretty expensive and I don't think you're going too far on $24K a year.

      10. Re:On the contrary by putaro · · Score: 1

        $25K a year as a gimme is not a bad thing at all. If anything, I think that SS should be indexed so that people who have the means aren't drawing it. However, poverty is not a virtue in my book and if I can avoid it I will (I can honestly say that I have been rich and I have been poor - rich is much better).

    11. Let me answer with... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      A resounding NO! You see, some of us are finishing up school, and about to enter the workplace, and um... yea just don't do it! The following code snippet might explain: //please set the following flags:
      if (this.getAge() 23) {
                this.jobSecurity(true);
                this.jobCompetition(false);
      }

      1. Re:Let me answer with... by gangien · · Score: 2, Insightful

        //please set the following flags:
        if (this.getAge() 23) {
                  this.jobSecurity(true);
                  this.jobCompetition(false);
        }
        Horrible code.

        • You should explain why you'll be setting stuff not asking someone to set it.
        • Why are you using the this reference?
        • The method names should really be given the "set" prefix.
        • Don't use magic numbers, that "23" should be at least a constant. Maybe even better would be a property (or the equivalent for whatever language you're using.)
        • The context of the current object for age and then job security and competition seem bad, you should consider refactoring your code so perhaps something like getJobMarket().clearCompitetion();
        • I'll give you a pass on the HTML stripping the '<' sign. At least I think that is what you intended, but you're code is very unclear so I'm not positive.

          I know it was a joke.. but...
      2. Re:Let me answer with... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

        Jesus. Have you ever seen a real vagina in its native habitat?

    12. whatever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      start: 2012

      start 117 MB update @: 10.17

      cumulative: 678 KB / sec.

    13. Do you want Full-time vs. Part-Time work? by billstewart · · Score: 2, Insightful
      After my father "retired", i.e. told his company he was retiring and wanted to start taking his pension, he worked there as a consultant full-time for a year or two before cutting back to half-time, and it took him a couple of years to _actually_ retire. But he was a research chemist, and research is the kind of thing you can do part-time.


      Professional programming usually isn't part-time work, at least if you're working for a company that's producing a product to sell as opposed to doing in-house projects to support other activities. It's typically feast-or-famine schedule, with the usual deadline crunches. Now that the 90s boom is over, there may be less of the 80-hour-week-deathmarch kind of thing going on, and programmers may be more likely to have lives rather than being 25-year-olds with an infinite tolerance for caffeine, but that still tends to be the environment.


      So if you want to work part-time, you'll need to look a bit longer for a gig than if you want to be full-time. On the other hand, if you want to work occasional full-time gigs, then contract/temp work does fine for that. Or if you want to do sysadmin work, that's often flexible about schedule.

      --

      Bill Stewart
      New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
      1. Re:Do you want Full-time vs. Part-Time work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

        > Professional programming usually isn't part-time work...

        I disagree. From what I've seen more programmers spend time doing maintenance and adding features or reports than writing new software. In many companies there is a need for ongoing support of a piece of software that doesn't require enough changes to justify a full-time employee.

    14. Mature attitude needed in IT by myowntrueself · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The enterprise IT world *needs* people with mature attitudes.

      I'm a sysadmin, not a programmer so this may come across off-topic, but there is a lesson to be learned with respect to mature vs *cough*immature*cough* people in the world of IT.

      Most of the people working in this area at the moment are very young and enthusiastic. Thats not a bad thing in itself; its bad when they start 'playing' with systems on which other peoples livelyhoods depend.

      They are often people who think its ok to introduce fascinating new technologies into the enterprise machine room because they *love* to tinker with shiny new stuff "ooooh Linux iscsi on all our servers! Wheeeee!!!".

      Its bad when you have IT professionals who so love fixing computer problems that they don't mind being woken up by a pager at 3am; for them its a wonderful opportunity to wrestle with a computer problem.

      The mature attitude says that computers should not wake people with a 3am pager call; they should not go wrong in the first place. It says that you should not introduce bleeding-edge technologies into important systems. It says that stability and reliability are very important.

      Same sort of thing applies to coding I guess, but not being a coder, take no notice of me.

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
      1. Re:Mature attitude needed in IT by ErichTheRed · · Score: 1

        The enterprise IT world *needs* people with mature attitudes.

        I totally agree with everything you mentioned. Our company tends to be very bleeding-edge; the sysadmins I work with want to install every single new technology the day it goes beta. It's encouraged in the name of "innovation", which I agree with. However, people need to learn to build stable systems that don't die unexpectedly in the middle of the night. Ripping out Solaris in favor of Linux? Fine, just make sure it's rock-solid and thoroughly tested.

        Our developers are already hounding me to publish a standard Vista system so they can get coding. I've tried to explain to them that we spent 5 years getting XP to the point where it's stable and we know how things are configured. (Yes, I do desktop work; I like pain.)

        It's impossible to accomplish in IT, but it would be nice if there were a PE license for software engineers. Once a PE in another branch of engineering puts their stamp on a set of plans or a design, they're legally responsible for Bad Things that may happen. That would definitely encourage dilligence.

      2. Re:Mature attitude needed in IT by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Insightful

        the sysadmins I work with want to install every single new technology the day it goes beta. It's encouraged in the name of "innovation", which I agree with.

        What you have to do when talking with management about such issues, is to liberaly use such words and phrases as "untried", "untested", "unproven", "not ready for the enterprise".

        You have to make sure that the people above you are made totally aware that if they settle on some unproven solution that any downtime or other problems that result will be their responsibility.

        You have to spell this out to them and make sure that you do so in front of other people, not in a private, closed-door meeting.

        Theres nothing that scares the bejeesus out of management quite so much.

        --
        In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
      3. Re:Mature attitude needed in IT by CptNerd · · Score: 1

        I just wish the people in charge of hiring understood this. I'm into month 6 after my last contract, and all I get is la-de-da and "we'll contact you when my hiring manager give the okay" and "oh, that project was put on hold" and "well, we can only pay $30/hour for a senior developer (which I would take in a hearbeat now, BTW). The positions I'm seeing claim to want senior people, which would imply may years experience, but they're unwilling to pay more than entry-level or slightly better wages for that experience. Frustrating. I'm seriously looking to try finding a job at Wal-Mart or McDonalds or somewhere, just to pay the rent.

        --
        By the taping of my glasses, something geeky this way passes
    15. Programming at 50+ by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It is working for me. I started programming after working in chemical R&D for 25 years partly because I felt it was a less demanding career, and one that has more flexibility when I got to retirement. I started programming in early 2000 as a Perl web developer for a small boutique consultancy, learned Java, PHP and a few other things on the job, and for the past year or so have been working as an architect for a mid-sized company. I am 57 years old now. One thing that has been a big factor in my success is simply being able to communicate in English. There are a lot of good programmers out there who for one reason or another can't translate what they do into a coherent sentence. Another thing that has been helpful is a strong educational background - when you are in the job market it really opens a lot of doors even if you are an older person.

    16. Yes, and use your powers for good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      How about this?

      Start contributing to Open Source/Free Software projects that interest you as a way to do good while developing your programming skills. Making minor fixes or enhancements to other people's code is a great way to learn.

      Leverage your hardware engineering background to contribute to open source device drivers for useful devices. When you've mastered that, continue on into the Linux/BSD/whatever kernel(s), where your background will continue to be an advantage. Your maturity would be valuable (and maybe even valued :/ ).

      After a while, you'll have a reputation and an honest-to-goodness portfolio of code you can point to on your resume. If you want, you can leverage that for consulting gigs - just the sort of short-term commitment that's perfect for your situation, I'd say.

      I'm about your age, but not in a position to retire (as in: I'll probably be greeting you at WalMart in 20 years :), but this sounds like a nice way to go, to me at least.

    17. Good idea, but will others think so? by ErichTheRed · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here's the problem with programming and IT jobs in general. The people actually doing the work tend to be young. I'm 31, and I'm already starting to see the shift in opinions of my work as a sysadmin. (You know you're old when people out of school have never seen a command prompt before...)

      I'm guessing this will change as the profession matures. However, today is not a good day for older workers in the tech field. Too many people don't realize the value of life experience. Also, employers don't want to hire older workers because they're afraid they won't be able to keep up with younger peers. Older workers also demand higher salaries, which IT is not willing to pay in most companies.

      I agree that retirement is going to be a lot different for our generation. I really can't see myself on a golf course every day or working as a greeter at Wal-Mart. Hopefully the tide will shift a little. I already see businesses less willing to put up with IT failures caused by "new, cool" systems. Maybe a little standardization and movement towards a "information systems engineering" profession will help.

    18. Retiree???? by ChengWah · · Score: 0

      What do you mean too old? Half your luck if you're thinking about retiring at 50. Some people keep working all their lives. Not that 50 is too old to be a programmer, or at least I hope it isn't, because I'm 50. I now telecommute from a rural/coastal setting, working as a consultant/programmer to a few firms, and make a very decent living. Highly recommended.

    19. Academia by Improv · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would suggest you take an academic programming job -- it'll probably be more intellectual and better paced for your interests. Academia tends to be better for people who have broad job interests/skills than the private sector, and the retirement benefits will be better as well.

      --
      For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    20. Games are fun by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you're looking to do something as a hobby, programming small games can be really fun. There is an constant stream of new problems to solve interleaved with lots of tweaking settings to get the feel just right. What I mean is that it is a fun, challenging hobby and ultimately you have something you can take pride in and show off (or not).


      Additionally, given that your background is hardware engineering one idea would be to pick up a PS3 and try developing via the linux distro. Probably, for programmers with a traditional background this would just be an unnecessary pain, but Cell is definitely an interesting hardware architecture if you are a little crazy (eg. hardware guys)

    21. ...computer science != programming by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      At the undergrad level it is.

      And, just what natural laws is compute "science based on?

      Yup, computer science isn't a science: it's really logic and language.

    22. I wouldn't do it-BOING! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Anything that you enjoy doing instantly becomes much less fun the moment you are doing it because you are required to, for whatever reason."

      In other words don't get married.

    23. Good luck with that by stonewolf · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have a masters in CS, 30+ years programming experience, lots of business knowledge. You name it, I pretty much have it. I was laid off on my 49th birthday. That was 5 years ago. I can not buy a paid programming job. The only serious contact I have had in the last 3 years was with a company in India that was desperate for experienced people. Moving to Bangalore is not an option for me right now. The contract market has dried up.

      I work on open source projects. I do some writing. I took the courses and passed the tests so that I can teach in the public schools. I haven't been able to find a job there yet. There are a lot of people like me chasing too few teaching jobs. I do teach part time at the local community college. But, very few people in the US are interested in learning programming right now. I have only had 6 students in the last 3 semesters. I teach and code when I can. I was thinking about going to law school. But I do not have the money and I would have to move which is not an option right now.

      So, all I can say is good luck with that.

      Stonewolf

      1. Re:Good luck with that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

        I also had a similar experience. After a major company layoff I tried to find contract gigs since at 45 I wanted a little break; basically a part time job or work half a year and then take a few months off. There were no jobs like that out there. I think that ship sank with the tech bust. Only the typical 60+ hours a week salaried jobs existed, and even those were hard to come by.
        So I do not think you can really be a retiree computer programmer unless you are willing to do charity work for a school or open source project. Anybody willing to pay will want your heart, soul, and massive overtime.

      2. Re:Good luck with that by deodiaus2 · · Score: 1

        Part of the problem is that we programmer look to recruiters for our next assignment. This is really tough, first because recruiters are flooded with resumes. Secondly, recruiters tend to drive down the rate and take their 20% overhead cut. How many times have recuiters told you flat out that the rate is such and such.
        Getting programming work really means getting to the person who NEEDS the work done. This takes a lot of effort and making enough contracts until that person is found. It takes cold calling, and a certain sence of persistence. I am guessing that "finding work" CONSUMES 50+% of one's time. Unfortunately, this also means that we spend a great deal of time doing something which we are not good at doing. We probably are good programmers because we honed our skills in that endevour, and shunned our people skills.
        Not that its easy and definately not that its fun, but to land work, it takes an incredible amount of time searching for the opportunity. Unfortunately, the only way I know how to approach this is through the age old technique of cold calling. It is boring and has a low return rate. Worse, sometimes it leads to project which we are not interested about, but might take because it is some income.
        Just my 2 cents!

      3. Re:Good luck with that by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1

        First off, good luck yourself.

        Perhaps my perspective could help. I only have a few lowely AAS degrees combined with credits toward the CS. I've been at my current job, apps programmer for about 5 years, and had pretty much the same job for 3 years at a different company before moving. Most of the jobs I have applied for, and the 2 I have taken have been with small-medium size companies. The demand for programmers at these companies is very overlooked. Especially in manufacturing shops. Companies that have grown themselves from the ground up usually develop a unique mode of operation that suits them. Cookie-cutter scheduling and inventory management programs often don't fit their needs well. There are also alot of automation to be done in all sorts of areas.

        As a small/medium business programmer, I have developed bigger projects like a server side PHP Inventory/QC management system (prints inventory tags too, pretty cool), a few VB (recently converted to .NET)design performance programs for our products, a .NET sales and scheduling tool, a VB (not yet converted) document viewer and search tool, and even web site development. Not to mention alot of misc DB work on purchased software. Now, I'm not a master of CS, but I found developing an inventory system very fascinating work. Getting the PHP server to print to 2 dozen thermal printers around the shop floor (and send them to the printer closest the user without having them have to specify their location each time) was a pretty interesting task. Using Solidworks libraries to automate CAD development was challenging and interesting. The cooling programs were a whole heck of alot of work. But in the end, you end up with all these nice curve fitting and printing classes, polynomial curve fitting libraries, CAD plugins, etc. It's great work, IMO.

        Especially at a smaller place where you are in charge of the programming, there is alot of freedom and job satisfaction. In a growing company when you can see filing cabinets dissapear and productivity pick up as a direct result of your work, it's very rewarding. Some of the ads for DBAs and programmers for these smaller, non-tech companies are actually great jobs that can be far more rewarding than one would think.

        I have seen alot of these jobs around. They would be perfect for someone who wants to program and have a bit of freedom in doing so. That's just my $.02. In my area (Northern MN), they would be very happy to find someone with your education and experience. Heck, I had several offers with just AAS degrees and no experience.

      4. Re:Good luck with that by stonewolf · · Score: 1

        Hey, Thanks for the info.

        I would jump at a job like those you describe. Almost all my experience has been in small start up companies. I have worked at 5 start up companies. I have actively been looking for companies like that. I have been turned down for those jobs and the reasons are usually that 1) I am over qualified, i.e. they assume I will leave at the drop of a hat and 2) I am over 50.

        The second one can be a killer for small companies. First off, they usually believe that you have to very young to be any good at programming and they look at what I would do to their health care costs and they lose all interest.

        Stonewolf

      5. Re:Good luck with that by ObiWanStevobi · · Score: 1

        Well, then they have yet to learn their lessons. Wait till they pay a vendor or contractor to do something for them only to find they get little or no support, or extremely overpriced support. We've proven many cases where having an in-house programmer can be much cheaper than buying or contracting software. Especially when you have to employ a full time DBA to manage an overly complex application that you are already paying liscensing and support costs for.

        But I do know that second one is a killer. I was later told that one reason I was hired is because I was engaged and bought a house in the area, which made them feel comfortable I was going to stick around. I would seem to think a 50 year old would be much less likely to up and leave than a kid right out of school though. I know they won't hire young engineers here for that reason.

        Anyway, I truly do wish you the best of luck. I'll also add that Minnesota seems to have quite a few of these jobs popping up from time to time. There just aren't alot of programmers that stay up here.

      6. Re:Good luck with that by hogfat · · Score: 1

        Sounds illegal to me.

    24. 68.4% of statistics by ishmaelflood · · Score: 1

      are made up.

      I think I'll add yours to the list.

    25. Excellent idea by ishmaelflood · · Score: 4, Funny

      The competition from Sudoku-playing denture-suckers should reduce the wages for this essentially clerical job down to a realistic level. Their maturity will ensure that they need less admin than the whippersnappers, so wages for IT managers should drop as well.

      Sadly, since they will tend to drop dead during a project, the lost art of commenting code will need to be reintroduced. In order to make sure that this gets done each senior citizen/coder will be assigned an unemployed baby-face, who will make cups of tea, issue pills, and remind them not to dribble on the keyboard. Every hour the baby-face will insist that the old codger comments the previous hour's work, and archives it.

      One day the fossil will collapse across the desk, at which point the baby-face will push the body to one side, and take over the programming job. She, in her turn will be assigned a baby-face.

      1. Re:Excellent idea by mikael · · Score: 1

        Sadly, since they will tend to drop dead during a project, the lost art of commenting code will need to be reintroduced. In order to make sure that this gets done each senior citizen/coder will be assigned an unemployed baby-face, who will make cups of tea, issue pills, and remind them not to dribble on the keyboard. Every hour the baby-face will insist that the old codger comments the previous hour's work, and archives it.

        I thought that was called "Extreme Programming"?

        --
        Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    26. Talk about Quixotic... by C10H14N2 · · Score: 1

      "I'm not trolling, or kidding for that matter. Find ways to deliver value that only you can bring."

      In other words, "I am an unique and beautiful snowflake, you're a replaceable part." Well, hon, short of selling your spunk, there's nothing you can provide that is of truly "unique" value...and what quantifiable uniqueness there is for your, uhm, "genetic material," I highly doubt there is a premium in the market that could replace a salary even if you were able to produce it like water from a fire-hose.

      1. Re:Talk about Quixotic... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

        My point exactly.

      2. Re:Talk about Quixotic... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
        Not to put to fine a point on it but people who are willing to help other people for free, are a good thing (as long as their help is not on sold at an enormous profit by some asshat).

        The open source community is available for any retired computer programmer to publicly display their coding skills. A venue where the best programmers demonstrate their coding mojo and the unique values they bring open source projects.

        The big difference between proprietary software and open source, open source actually does value everybody, programmers and users alike can all contribute to open source projects in what ever way they are best able for the greater good.

        --
        Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    27. How can you retire and still work? by Larry+Lightbulb · · Score: 1

      Perhaps it's an American language thing, but I've never understood how someone can be retired and still have a job - to me retirement means stopping work and getting a pension, if you start working again then you're no longer retired.

      1. Re:How can you retire and still work? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

        I think it means that while you still work you are no longer dependent on your job. My grandfather was retired but still worked at my dad's store a couple days a week, probably to spend some more time with him while helping him out.

      2. Re:How can you retire and still work? by mikael · · Score: 1

        Many companies have (or had) final pension schemes where the monthly payment was based on an average of the salary of the last few years wrorked.
        Usuallly, the pension scheme had a minimum number of years service (and in come cases a compulsory retirement age). Once a person retired, they are
        free to do what they like with the money. Many people would find second incomes through hobbies like antuque dealing - go through the second hand
        stores looking for items of value to be traded on Ebay.

        --
        Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    28. Take into account health and personality by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, more experienced workers need less training. But, they are also less likely to be willing to learn new styles. I've worked with quite the random group of people for a while, I've seen and worked with all types. Yes, you sometimes have to fight to get a young technician to learn something new. But, even after fighting and convincing an experienced person they need to do something differently, they often will not. Are you willing to listen to criticism? Do you have a lot of baggage? I don't care if you are young or old, if you can't deal with a job you should gracefully exit.

      Also, health is very important to intellectually demanding jobs. I've seen people become diabetic and become worthless in technical jobs, even if they are taking care of themselves. If your mental capabilities are random because of sugar high/lows, you will struggle to do any long tasks. And, what about your vision? I've seen very capable technical people who stuggle at a job, after they go far sighted. It get's hard to keep track of windows and read code, if you can only focus on one small part of the screen at a time. It's incredibly frustrating to deal with someone to can't read the computer screen or follow what is in front of them. What about carpal tunnel?

      In the end, any career change means a serious period of self introspection. Are you really capable of change? Of accepting styles which may run counter to your own? Are you up to the task, health and personality wise? This is true of young and old, and you only know yourself. I'm sure everyone here as been burned by both unhealthy or stodgy young or old co-workers. In the end, it is best to talk to your friends. You are more likely to get a job, and get real feedback, if you have a decent group of friends and contacts.

      Good luck.

    29. It won't be easy by Simon+Brooke · · Score: 1

      I'm 51 now, I've been programming for twenty-two years. I expect to keep programming till the day I drop, because I don't have a pension (my own choice). But the industry thinks it wants young people, and doesn't value experience. And it particularly won't value experience which you have gathered as a hobbyist. Having said that I don't think it's impossible. Experience genuinely is valuable.

      --
      I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
    30. alternative by treak007 · · Score: 1

      You could always devote your time to programming open source software. Maybe get involved with sourceforge, or helping with bug patches, rather then programming for a company.

      --
      Klingon Software is not released, it escapes, inflicting terrible damage onto the enemy as it does
    31. I absolutely love my job... by cmeans · · Score: 1
      The way I look at it, the only things I'm paid to do, are the things I don't really like/want to do. The rest of the time I'm doing what I love, and don't have to be paid to do it. Well, you know what i mean.

    32. NO!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Retire for chrissakes! Jesus! You people are already bankrupting Social Security, now young programmers can't find a freaking job because of you old codgers...

      I hear WalMart is looking for greeters...

    33. Go for it.... by humblecoder · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not clear whether or not the original poster will be needing to work for the money, or whether the income will be just a nice retirement bonus.

      If you don't need the extra income, then there are no shortage of outlets where you can "scratch" your programming "itch". Contribute to an open-source project (or start your own), write some useful piece of shareware, write some business applications for your local non-profit organization, teach programming at a community school, etc. None of these avenues will provide much income (if any), but it does allow you to take your hobby to the next level.

      If you are looking to actually make money out of your hobby in retirement, my advice would be to leverage your pre-retirement vocation. There is a branch of software development known as "embedded programming", which is writing software for special-purpose hardware devices. As a hardware engineer, you probably have a lot of knowledge that would be very attractive to a potential employer. Also, you probably have contacts from your hardware days who might be able to help you land a job in this area.

    34. TEACH by Dukebytes · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I am 40 years old. Been working my butt off for 23 of them... When I hit 50+/- I plan on going to a nice little community college and teaching for "retirement".

      Like me, you sound like you won't be happy at all not working. I really can't think of myself as being out of a job, not even when I am 60+. So I plan on teaching.

      You have the required education, and just so much more real world knowledge than 80% of the instructors out there today. PASS IT ON. I have taught part time in the past on and off for 5/6 years. It is a lot of fun, it keeps you sharp and the students love you because, you are for real and not just from a book.

      If you code after you retire, it will get to be another full time job and who wants to deal with dead lines, time lines, requirements, and boneheads that don't know what they are talking about etc... Doesn't sound like retirement to me... If you go the teaching route, maybe a few bad ass kids in the bunch here and there, but everything else is set up, its not that hard and can be a blast.

      You won't make a lot of money, but pick a good open source project and code for it as a hobby, and go teach to make a little cash and really feel good about helping all the young geeks out there ;)

      duke

      --

      FreeBSD: Nothing runs like a daemon with a pitch fork.
    35. Do what you love... by amagine · · Score: 1


      If you have a passion, follow it. You will find others with your passion, and with their help find a way to continue with your passion. It does not hurt to just show up someplace that has an interest for you, offer them your services, probably as 'part-time' since you are retired you are very flexible with pay and hours.

      As an employer, I do prized a good skill set, although, I must say skill set is nothing if a person has no passion to work.

      Ha! I used to drop off resumés at various biz's untill I found a place with an 'atmosphere' that I liked. I would then get the phone number of the person who's job it was to hire, and make it a point to phone them back asking, "What time do I start work tomorrow?"

      As a retiree the ball is in your court, you have the upperhand, because you have something employers want. Passion. Just remember that.

    36. Sure. For example, by CptPicard · · Score: 1

      In Korea, computer programming is for old people!

      --
      I want to play Free Market with a drowning Libertarian.
    37. Programming in real life != programming for self by jimicus · · Score: 1
      AFAICT it's not been said yet - perhaps most of the programmers here assume you already know, or haven't really considered it yourself.

      In the real world, software development is frequently boring.

      Sure, solving problems is fun. But 70-80% of the time, the things you're working on are something like:

      • Debugging code - either your own or someone elses. If you find this boring or monotonous, software development probably isn't for you.
      • Trying to make sense of other people's code. A lot of college courses don't really go into much detail in doing this, which is a shame because it's a large chunk of the job.
      • Writing boring boilerplate code. After all the interesting problems are solved, there's still a lot to be done in tying all the solutions together. A lot of business applications (think payroll, accounting, pensions, stock control) consist of almost entirely boilerplate code and simply aren't very sexy to write - this is why Linux is and always will be "undready for the enterprise" - at least until such time as the commercial vendors providing such applications find it's worthwhile to port their software to Linux.
    38. Social Security by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      But please don't take your pension and my social security and offer services which are priced lower than normal wholesale costs. In the international arena it's called dumping and it's illegal. Remember - this guy is being supported on SS (or will be in a few years - by the time he's worth anything) - so it's not exactly apples to apples.

      First if someone's retiring and is going to collect Social Security then they paid into it. Next, if they had instead of paying SS tax, they had invested the same amount of money throughout their working life they actually be ahead of someone would paid SS tax. If a person saves and invests just $2000 a year from the age of 18 to 25 when they reach 65 they have almost a million dollars invested with an ROI of 10%.

      Falcon
    39. Would it be a good job? by TaleSpinner · · Score: 1

      Sure. Provided you can get past the rampant ageism among employers who dislike hiring anyone with grey hair - partly because they don't want their insurance premiums to go up, partly because older programmers get paid more for their experience, and finally because they prefer college-hires with more "up to date" "skill sets". As if.

      1. Re:Would it be a good job? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

        Not always the case. My employer, a Bank, prefers the grey hairs since it means: Discipline, respect for authority, seriousness to get the job done, and generally not "gung-ho".
        More companies prefer companies who can develop, and not just code.

        They prefer the grey-haired suits more than the Jeans & T-Shirts gang, as the greys do not come with a terrible hangover on Monday morning, nor do they fly off at 3.30 PM on a Friday evening.

        --
        "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
      2. Re:Would it be a good job? by hyperstation · · Score: 0

        Not always the case. My employer, a Bank, prefers the grey hairs since it means: Discipline, respect for authority, seriousness to get the job done...

        funny, where i'm from it means old age or bad genes.

    40. Programming is not like plumbing. by Malkin · · Score: 1

      What's important to understand is that there is room in programming for both big ticket senior programmers, and low cost junior programmers. A company that tries to staff up with only one or the other does so at their own peril. Senior programmers are needed to architect things, to understand the whole system, and to solve the big, nasty, mind-bending problems. Junior programmers are needed to do the less intensive tasks that would be a waste of a senior programmer. Going without senior programmers could result in a lower quality product, more time spent, or possibly worse. Going without junior programmers will both increase your costs, and wreck your programmer morale.

      So, he should price himself according his skills and experience. Just being cheap isn't inherently bad, unless he's trying to get senior-level work.

      Now, he did mention possibly contracting, and that's a bit different. If he wants to try to undercut the entire population of Bangalore, then more power to him. At this point, undercutting will only take jobs from undercutters.

    41. Is computer programming a good job for anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Answer: No!

    42. feedback by 22_9_3_11_25 · · Score: 1

      blindingly bright green type, never got past that!

    43. Freelance programming by JestersPet · · Score: 1

      Since retirement is more about working because you want to and not because you have to, I'd encourage you to follow your ambitions. You have nothing to loose & everything to gain from attempting to get into the programming field.

      I would suggest freelance programming as a route to take. It offers you the chance to cherry pick the jobs you think you can do, and the flexibility to work from home/the beach/golf course as you please, and at your own pace. It may not pay stellar wages, but it does give you a little cash in your pocket to augment your retirement fund.

      If you find your skills in programming are not up to snuff for the stuff available, you can take programming classes at your leisure to augment your skills, and work the freelance stuff as time allows. The really big bonus is that if you find that you don't want to continue this course of action, you can stop at anytime, not inconvenience anyone and follow whatever new itch you have.

    44. "The big five oh" by jagne · · Score: 1

      Steve Jobs is 52. There's a world of opportunities out there.
      Don't close your mind to a "retirement" mindset.

    45. Keep on Truckin by alteredego12345 · · Score: 1

      I say as long as you have the desire to do it then whats really to stop you ? Like you said you can basically work from home and while you're waiting for reitrement you can start by writing small apps on the side, give snippits of code to tutirial websites, things like that. Overall I say just go for it because reallym 50 is the new 30 man !!!

    46. Totally missed the sarcasm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You wouldn't happen to be in the US on an H1b would you?

    47. I know an old programmer.... by barfomar · · Score: 1
      I know an old programmer who bought a trailer equipped with a french frier and pop dispenser.

      He sells french fries made from unpeeled potatoes in a paper cup for a $1.50, pop for $1.25 and looking to buy another trailer or two. Makes over a $100K (much of it tax free) in about 4 months a year, traveling to county fairs. Goofs off the rest of the year in Florida.

      Its a dogs life for that 4 months, but you if your could put up with, hiring a couple of kids to do the grunt work, it might be OK.

      While (open){
      Put potato on slicer;
      Push slicer handle down;
      Fry potatoes;
      Fill cup;
      Give change;
      }

      I'm going to bid on the route when he "retires". Funnel cakes and elephant ears sell well too, but are more work.

      Beats working for some pointey haired boss. FTM!

    48. Code as Commodity by NicknamesAreStupid · · Score: 1

      My first computer was an IBM/370 with OS/VS2. Back then, code was scarce and even fair programmers such as myself could get a great job. Today, code is as plentiful as bad air and, often, even lower quality. The problem is that code is like news or natural gas -- it is considered a commodity. And commodities that are necessities only demand a premium if there is a supply shortage.

      If you want to code, write applications that people want (not just need). Real time apps are a good idea but might not pay that well and can be a rat hole. Killer apps are those things that take the mundane and make it amazing. A good example is Smokey City Design's Panorama Factory. Better than anything Adobe has, this app can sew shots together like a Seville Row tailor.

      Of course, if you are going to sell apps, you need to be a businessman too. Lastly, code is like news in that it gets old and loses its value quickly. If you are thinking of being a contractor, be sure to get a separate agreement for maintenance and make sure it is hourly with no caps.

    49. Open Source Software by virtigex · · Score: 1

      Contribute to a OSS software project, or start one of your own. Think of it as an on-line resume, if you ever want to get a real job. Meanwhile, hone your skills, join a community and contribute to society.

    50. You left out some important facts by arete · · Score: 1

      I realize the g-gp was a joke, but since the parent wasn't, I'm responding to it.

      Right now there are US tax BENEFITS to outsourcing. That simply shouldn't be true; I've never heard any justification for it except to line the pockets of the companies large enough to do it a lot.

      Companies with US employees pay a tremendous amount for healthcare, in great disproportion to the quality of care we get. a) I'm not saying we need national healthcare, but we at least need enough regulation of this critical industry to prevent by the insurance companies the anticompetitive practices that today rule the industry. b) To keep good jobs here, a greater proportion of this burden needs to be borne nationally. (That also doesn't mean the system has to be nationalized; tax revisions would be sufficient for part b.)

      Fixing these things isn't a tariff per se, but it has the tariff effects the gp was looking for compared to today's status quo.

      Of course, there are other important changes that could be made - a fair fraction of outsourcing fails, not because somewhere like India doesn't have quality people, but because the lowest bidding contractors aren't the highest-quality people available. So better corporate responsibility for these failures - both a) responsibility to consumers for inferior products, services and especially privacy violations and b) responsibility of officers to shareholders for the failed outsourcing projects, where "everyone else was doing it" isn't a good defense.

      --
      Looking for freelance Actionscript (Flash/Flex) or ColdFusion work and/or freelance developers. Email me, put Slashdot
    51. Retirement programming by Sqreater · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding? The 25-year-old Masters of the Universe won't hire you. Period.

      --
      E Proelio Veritas.
    52. My take by Austin+Milbarge · · Score: 1

      I think it's great that you want to start a new career. There are two basic ways to go about it. Working for a company or working on your own. Working on your own is not always that easy because it's sometimes hard to find work. You can always advertise in the local paper, perhaps building websites or creating databases for local small businesses. There are also websites I've seen that let you bid on development jobs, although I have no experience with this. Bottom line you'll have to keep at it and have patience.

      As for companies hiring developers, it's unfortunate that you'll hear a lot of people complain that there is no work because of outsourcing and that the Indians are doing everything for 10 bucks and hour. I'm not saying outsourcing isn't a problem but lets face it, today's companies have smartened up quite a bit. What I mean is, they're not willing to hire programmers who've just learned to code last last year by buying a Microsoft Visual Studio book and following examples. That was the 1990's when every schmuck started a company and paid programmers six figures hoping to make millions on Java applets. The days of VB programmers getting 100k/year are long over. Today you gotta be good, you gotta be flexible and you gotta be your own best salesman. Also understanding the company you work for and how your efforts will fit into their business, in my view, is very important to getting ahead. Oh, I almost forgot. Stay away from recruiters if you can help it. Recruiters are mostly a bunch of phony dick heads that exist to make money by wasting your time. Trust me, try to meet the potential employer on your own if possible. Good luck!

    53. You won't like it by Jerim · · Score: 1

      There are two problems with the programming market today. Number one is management. Any sort of IT work, including programming is immediately considered an expense, to which it must be managed. Management will usually put some very strict time frames on projects, with no breathing room. Next, you probably will have difficulty getting any of your questions answered, as most projects have shifting goals. Management will also be expecting you to immediately know what you need to do and how to do, as to save time and money. You probably envision it as a learning adventure, where you will be able to pick up things as you go. Management isn't going to be interested in hiring someone who can "come up to speed." They are going to want someone who hits the ground running. Maybe you know everything you need to, maybe you don't, I don't know. All I can tell you, is that most of the time, "I can learn" is not a valid response.

      Number two is co-workers. Most of the IT professionals out there are very competent nice individuals. However it is the bad apples that ruin the industry. You basically have two types. The guy who knows his stuff backwards and forwards, but doesn't have the time or patience to even talk to anyone who doesn't know as much as himself. He puts himself above the "peons" and will regard everything you do and say as prime examples of how stupid you really are. The other bad apple is the employee who may or may not know what he is doing, but uses a combination of buzz words and posturing to give his bosses the impression that he is a great employee. These are the guys who will scrutinize everything you do for flaws and wait until the next team meeting to elaborate on how "Jim" is an awful programmer. Not to mention that as a contractor, the company will have someone on their staff review your code. Guess how many times they will find nothing wrong with it?

      Of course, your experience may vary. On the whole, I have found the industry rife with very aggressive people. I understand most career fields have their stresses, but I believe the IT has more than its fair share. From bosses who are going to mistrust you from day one, to co-workers who are usually more interested in getting you labeled as a failure than in getting work done; the IT industry is just in a very poor shape. Did you see the post about old people drooling on keyboards? That is the maturity/attitude that most of your co-workers will have.

      Perhaps you are envisioning a situation where fellow IT professionals work in a spirit of cooperation to help each other learn and become better through the mutual sharing of knowledge. Well, that just isn't going to happen. So unless you are very confident in your abilities, don't mind putting up with the daily drama and are willing to fight back against false allegations, I would pick something more relaxing and fun. Teaching was thrown out; and I think that would be a good choice. Or if you really want to expand your programming prowess, find a small open source project. Most of the time, the people working on that project are more than willing to help; you won't find much in-fighting there.