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China Creates Massive Online ID Database
schwaang writes that while the US continues to hash out concerns over the Real ID Act, which aims to create a national ID by standardizing state driver's licenses, China has already implemented a massive online ID database, which they say will help prevent fraud. From the Xinhua English-language site: "Anyone can now send a text message or visit the country's population information center's website, to check if the name and the ID number of a person's identity card match. If they do match the ID card-holder's picture also appears, said the Ministry, adding that no other information is available to ensure a citizen's privacy is protected. Completed at the end of 2006, China's population information database, the world's largest, contains personal information on 1.3 billion citizens. Giving public accessing to the database is also designed to correct mistakes if an individual discovers that their name, number and picture don't match."
China has already implemented a massive online ID database, which they say will help prevent fraud.
And by "fraud", they mean "democracy".
Push Button, Receive Bacon
This is a great way to do it, you have to admit. I wonder if they list all of us expats as well...
Thats gotta be a pretty massive database, any ideas about the tech running underneath?
liqbase
So China develops a national ID that ties a name and a number to a photo, can be corrected if its incorrect, and can't be used by the bouncer at the bar to get that hot girl's address and phone number, and we're still stuck on our useless social security cards and drivers' licenses? Clearly China has become the new overlords of freedom.
Who am I kidding? We all know that internally, China will use this database to track every citizens' whereabouts, who they are talking to, what they read at the library and most importantly whether you've bought milk recently or not.
They are not keeping this all secret. I don't think it's as big of a deal if we have access to and knowledge of what is kept in the database. I already know that I exist and that there are records of my existance. As long as there is no address or name alongside the picture I don't see this as a bad thing.
This kind of open ID database is not nearly as frightening as the ones being made of us without our knowledge or confirmation of facts pertaining to us.
once more into the breach
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
Some parts of Harvard such as the libraries call up one's picture as one enters. Harder to forge or distract the guards.
Actually, this is not all that far off from an "identity clearinghouse" idea I had a while back.
You voluntarily register in person with a government agency your name, address, and certain other personally-identifiable information of the sort that is required for a bank or other lender to grant you credit. When you apply for a new credit account somewhere, that lender sends a request to the government agency containing the PII that you provided to the lender. The government agency then contacts you to verify whether the credit request is valid. Then, the government agency responds to the lender, either stating that (1) the person is not in their records, (2) the person is in their records and has confirmed verification, or (3) the person is in their records and has denied verification. It would then be illegal for the lender to open an account for which the #3 response was given by the government, and the lender would be responsible for clearing up all the resultant credit problems.
In order to modify your data with the agency, you must show up in person at the agency's office with photo ID. If such a system were implemented in coordination with local DMVs, they could use the photos on file for your driver's license.
The government already has access to this data anyway, so allowing people to voluntarily put it to good use to stop identity theft is a good thing. The banks won't do it because the losses they suffer haven't reached the amount of money they think they'll lose if they start being more vigilant about credit applications.
When I've lived in a new place, including China, you are first hit by the sameness of people and places. Soon that fades into the background and you start seeing the differences among people and places.
It was a little harder the first time was there beacuse everyone wore those blue work clothes called Mao suits (some were green or gray!).
Then some Chinese say Europeans all look alike- European have yellow(*), curly hair and big noses. (* stereotype any hair color not black) Eye shape is a not a standard stereotype to them.
This is one of the warning signs that you spend too much time on Wikipedia.
You see, some pages on the internet don't have an "Edit" button you can click on.
If that includes the actions of those at the top. i.e. if I can monitor the actions of the Prime Minister and various top members of military and "intelligence" services; I'm not sure how much I'd mind, as in a population of 60mn how likely is it that I'm being monitored compared with those who are in the public eye (in other words those with power)? That would be real accountability.
If I have nothing to hide, you have no reason to search me
Giving public accessing to the database is also designed to correct mistakes if an individual discovers that their name, number and picture don't match."
Prisoner: Where am I?
Number Two: In The Village.
Prisoner: What do you want?
Number Two: Information.
Prisoner: Which side are you on?
Number Two: That would be telling. We want information, information, information...
Prisoner: You won't get it.
Number Two: By hook or by crook we will.
Prisoner: Who are you?
Number Two: The new Number Two.
Prisoner: Who is Number One?
Number Two: You are Number Six.
Prisoner: I am not a number. I am a free man.
Number Two: Ha, ha, ha, ha.
- Intro to "The Prisoner"
--
BMO
Things can be very convenient when your government has a centralized database of all of its citizens, and isn't hampered by things like:
Human rights
Privacy rights
Civil rights
Since anyone buying milk is probably not Chinese.
..........FULL STOP.
I feel like death on a soda cracker.
This is precisely what we should be shooting for.
Privacy is more about safety from prejudice than anything else. The important thing is that everyone loses it at once, no one has to go first, and everyone gets equal access.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I mean China is beating us in oppression..??! We gota' beat those F'in commies! We *need* Real_ID and RFID chips now, today.
(note to mod: This is satire)
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
A couple of quick observations from someone married to a Chinese national and has been to China five times. There are far fewer unique names in China both first and last and generally no middle name. Being able to uniquely identify people in China is a huge problem for private industry and government alike.
I am all for national ID cards and a central database for all citizen info. You provide this info over and over and over to various local, state, and federal agencies. How about just one yearly form you update at tax time? Want to live off the grid? Tough, get over it. We are long past the point where armed insurrection is going to change the American government. The only people that NEED to live off the grid are criminals (I know I'll get some angry replies to that). Lets get rid of black markets, gray markets, and illegal immigration. Need jobs filled? Then either give a decent wage or issue enough citizenships to fill them. Guest Worker program? Just an excuse the screw the working class by artificially keeping wages low, not to mention creating a whole new officially sanctioned underclass.
There are potentials for abuse to be sure, especially if third parties are allowed access (a practice I would like to see barred by law). But the gains to out society probably outweigh any theoretical down side. We're not talking papers you have to carry around or be arrested. We talking about a card you use when applying for jobs or bank accounts. I really don't understand all the hysteria surrounding the resistance to national databases or national IDs, though I'm sure some here will be all to anxious to enlighten me.
Letter To Iran
So, this seems like a good idea with potential terrible consequences. Let's say I've got a bot net of a million machines. We run the bot-net on the database pages, trying random numbers, gathering a database of names, numbers and pictures. Then I take these names, id numbers and pictures and start making IDs maybe? Or using photo recognition to classify people into different groups for spam/marketing purposes, or maybe by ethnicity by last name, or match it up to a directory service and getting addresses and all...
Of course, this could probably be defeated with enough, "Mother's maiden name?" sorta questions and all, but just seems like a ripe source of information that you may not want getting out. By itself, it's not so damaging, but paired with other resources, perhaps it's the last piece in a perfect identity fraud scheme.
This is merely a toy compared to what Google has on every US citizen. Equifax has the rest, and the CIA ties it all together.
The difference is what China has planned actually sounds useful to everyone, not just the watchers. An old idea, tried many times, but the bad guys want to be the only ones with that info.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I'm not so sure about this system. There must be errors in the database. What happens to the unfortunate individuals who don't match because of such an error? This also can be an easy way for the Chinese government to censor people.
If someone says something that the government doesn't like, they just insert an "error" into the database. Instant harassment that those poor individuals will have to go through before the error is fixed. Or even worse, the government could not admit to the change and simply lock the person up on fraud.
It is impossible to enjoy idling thoroughly unless one has plenty of work to do.
- Jerome Klapka Jerome
I feel like death on a soda cracker.
There is a picture of any German adult in some office at where he's registered. If the police needs to confirm your identity they can do so - and that's a great merit.
I'm currently living in the UK, where no ID cards exists. There are quite a few people around telling stories about that they need money and are willing to give it back to you later once they managed to travel back home / to their friends, etc. In Germany, you can tell them: Go to the police. Even if they lost their ID, the police can contact the city where they are registered and have them fax over a picture to prove peoples identity. The police will then be willing to provide the necessary help, even with money.
In they UK (and the US will be worse), there is simply no way at all to tell apart liars from people in need. I really hate this - if someone has a problem and asks for help, it needs to be sorted. This has nothing to do with Nazis, but with responsibility.
Of course, China might want to install its own big-brother database for reasons of central control and other fascist means. But I won't go into that.
Because the one thing that database won't do is help against fraudsters. Actually, it will help them. Contrary to ones belief, fraud goes up as more data about people is collected.
You'll notice that the credit-card fraud-rate is lower in europe, where we have relatively strong data-protection laws, than in the USA where personal data is protected less.
And any database which is generated will have its abuse (by users entering false data, by legitimate users using it for illegal means, by people illegally accessing it), the more it encompassess the more bodies will need access to it, the more it will be abused, and the first thing you will notice is a definitive increase in fraud.
So contrary to the common assumption that these databases will help to combat crime, they will foster crime.
"The more prohibitions there are, The poorer the people will be" -- Lao Tse
While it'd be better than a system where the government knows everything about everyone but the population doesn't, I still wouldn't want to live in a world without any secrets. Mob rule is not that much better than dictatorship, as there is far too much intolerance in the world. Think Salem Witch Trials, attitudes towards homosexuality, the Monica Lewinsky scandal, etc.
I'm also not a big fan of my actions being recorded. The problem with that is that it's too easy for someone who opposes you to take things out of context. A world in which everyone knows everything is a world which is controlled by the popular media. I also like the idea that I live in a world where I can make mistakes without everyone knowing about them.
Moving back to this program, I like the idea of being able to check that a name and an ID number match. Both of these items represent essentially the same thing. Adding in a picture I'm not so sure about.
China has massive class division between rich and poor. Rural dwellers are treated as second class citizens and mandated to have a city residence permit (which usually cost several times their annual income and can take months to get) to live in the city and earn a decent wage. There is currently a crackdown because of the Beijing Olympics and this may be part of it as another way to move the illegal rural people (the floating population) out of the cities. An ID card would make it easy to crosscheck with a database and then simply kick the person out.
I haven't yet seen people make the connection between such a database and a proposed US one meant to let employers confirm that their employees are citizens or legal residents. Right now our enforcement of immigration law is a joke because these people can find jobs with employers who look the other way when they use fake Social Security numbers, right? For once I'm going to say this database policy is a reasonable move. Of course China wants it for more than keeping out illegal immigrants from North Korea, but there really is a legitimate use for it in the US.
Revive the Constitution.