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Mid-Range Accounting Solutions for Linux?
markdavis asks: "For Linux to really succeed in business, it must first have support by vendors for the core financial applications: General Ledger, Accounts Payable, Accounts Receivable, and Payroll/HR. I am the IT Director for a long-term-care medical facility (400 employees) and found out a few weeks ago that the vendor that supplies our GL, AP, HR, and Payroll software is dropping support for Linux, in November (after using them for four years). They code in Progress and have decided to convert to a proprietary web GUI (IIS + IE6 + ActiveX) rather than use Progress + Apache + any browser. This means we either abandon Linux, or we are in the market for new accounting software modules (I bet you know which is my preferred choice). Does anyone use Linux server AND client (or web browser under Linux) software for financials in a medium or smaller/medium sized organization? If so, what do you use? Do you like it? What problems did you have in using it? What other advice can you give to someone trying to use Linux in this manner?"
All businesses require the core accounting functions, mentioned above. Most companies also require 'industry specific' software which is customized for their industry. For example, in healthcare, AR (Accounts Receivable) is VERY different from all other industries. It is 2007, so hopefully the Linux choices for at least the core, non-industry specific financial software have improved since our last search, four years ago.
have been working on an RFI/RFP (Request for Information/Proposal) and identifying as many possible vendors as possible. I have searched through hundreds of vendors so far and identified 39 possibilities, but could always use more."
have been working on an RFI/RFP (Request for Information/Proposal) and identifying as many possible vendors as possible. I have searched through hundreds of vendors so far and identified 39 possibilities, but could always use more."
For Linux to really succeed in business
Why do people so often preface Linux questions with things like that? "For Linux to really succeed in business" "For linux to succeed on the desktop".
Linux is succeeding in many aspects. Success doesn't have to mean 90% of the market share.
Anyway, that pet peeve aside. Take a look at compiere. Only drawback that I see is that it requires a non-free database to run on top of.
"If they have both, tell them we use Linux. And if they have that, tell them the computers are down." -Dave Chapelle
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Oracle offers a few packages that do all the things you mention - and will run on a variety of platforms. They have versions of at least two of their products that are tailored for small to medium business. So you could take a look at: http://www.oracle.com/applications/suites.html
I've never worked with any of their small business stuff -- so I can't recommend it, just pointing it out.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I wonder how compatible IEs4Linux would be with your current vendor?
e
http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Pag
:wq
I think just about everything is now covered in LedgerSMB or the project from which it was forked - SQL-Ledger. My business has been using these systems for the last four years and has found them to be stable, flexible and reliable.
The back end runs on an Apache server with PostgreSQL underneath. The client side can be just about any browser platform (including Lynx). There are online demos where you can test most of the functionality before deploying in your own network.
HTH.
Burns: We're building a casino!
McAllister: Arrr. Give me 5 minutes.
Maybe you're a bit small to use SAP? If so, there's always Sage, but I think you're stuck with a windows frontend there.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
google
has lots of suggestions. If you are looking for midrange you can buy lots of great packages that come with support and you can even demo most of them before you buy.
If you are looking for 100% free then nothing exists that you will want to use, I strongly suggest you pay for your accounting software.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
The organization that I work for uses QAD - its a progress based ERP package for manufacturing, so I don't think its what you are looking for. All our users ssh via putty into the Linux server to get to the progress/4GL apps.
You said it yourself: Web Apps are the obvious answer. I build enterprise apps base on OSS and while there are solutions out there (GNU Enterprise, Compiere) a good modern zero fuss turnkey kit doesn't exist. It's the same as with proprietary Enterprise Software. They're all so hermetric and well entrenched in their market that they couldn't care less about getting agile.
Get youself an OSS savy webapp developer/consultant, have him look at your data and build what you need to fill the growing gaps. If you tell him to build around standards, use existing components and foster an OSS spinnoff from the deal you'll be doing some good along the side. A good professional progammer that isn't arrogant with management and accounting will speed up internal processes for you along the way as a bonus.
Option: Then again you might just go and talk with your vendor. 400+ people isn't a small company and if you catch the right people you might even convince them to rethink their 'Active X ERP' strategy.
Yet then again: Who in Gods name builds an Enterprise Application requireing Active X??? Might aswell drop the vendor all together...
The farthest I'd go in the Web interface is use Flash (and only optional) to ease the pageflow pain. And I'd only do that because I've built ERP Apps before using flash and - believe it or not - they work pretty well on Linux, OS X and Windows. If you know what your doing. Which, sadly enough, only very few Flash devs actually do.
Another big thing of course is using Open Office as the corner stone. Can hardly go wrong using that.
Utter shameless Plug: If you need consulting or evaluation on the matter of OSS (web) ERP I'd be glad to help. You'll find my contact data on my Website under 'Kontakt'. I'm in Germany but I've allready done successfull ERP projects across the pond (entirely remote) and allways am glad for projects that cross-fund web-bases OSS ERP. I'd love to get an occasion to give OpenLaszlo a try on this.
Why don't you do your homework and narrow the field down to 3 or 4, before you send out an RFI/RFP?
I'm amazed that you have 39 choices, and you are looking for MORE!
I put my vote in for TinyERP.
It's easy to use, there are great demo's online, and it does everything, multi-platform support, interfacing with eCommerce engines, invoicing, orders, crm, etc...
1. Quasar Accounting. Much like QuickBooks, includes AR, AP, GL,
Inventory, Fixed Assets (if I remember right). Written in C++ with a
Linux server (talks to Postgres or Firebird or Sybase) and a C++ GUI
client based on QT (so it runs Windows and Linux). Drawback: they are
good at supporting it - esp if you buy a support contract - but they've
been promising the next major upgrade (1.5 from 1.4.7) "any day now" for a
few months. It's GPL, though. http://www.linuxcanada.com/
2. OpenBravo. This is a Spanish ERP solution, based on Java (tomcat or
jboss) and presents a web interface. Has GL, AP, AR, as well as CRM.
I've only played with this a bit but the learning curve is much closer to
vertical here. http://www.openbravo.org/
The only thing missing from those solutions is HR / Payroll, but for that
you could go to an outside company. There are payroll companies that
handle enterprises of all sizes, from 2 employees on up to tens of
thousands.
http://demo.openbravo.com/ OpenBravo is the only one I've seen that looks promising. Compiere was incredibly difficult to setup, I never actually succeeded. Try the demo link above. Don't even think about using Sage products. They are TERRIBLE! I speak from experience here. They were written using 20 year old "Business BASIC" language. They are not even truly client-server applications, they use file sharing and locking instead. Very unreliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProvideX
Death is life's great reward. R. Hoek
I would go with KCML, it has been running since 1974 and is still what we use... (I hate it, I wish it were dead) Seriously it sucks.. I used viewpoint at one company it was a windows SQL App , pretty cool, but a behemoth...
Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit!
I hate to sound so negative, but don't expect a vast range to be Free (either beer or speech). The problem of accounting is fantastically boring to most computer people, the code is 90% boiler-plate stuff and if you're going to generate tax paperwork for directly from the package it will require extensive localisation.
Bottom line, it's the kind of thing which is very difficult to persuade people to code without paying them. And the itch-scratching crowd which starts a lot of Free projects doesn't tend to work on such projects.
Which is not to say there aren't commercial solutions to the problem.... but don't expect a lot of choice in the way of community-driven solutions.
For midrange businesses, you do have some alternatives. Some examples:
- On the proprietary-source side you have AccPac with both a Linux server and a Linux client version.
- On the open-source side there's SQL Ledger and GNUCash.
- On the mixed side (the Point-of-Sale component uses proprietary software in it) there's Quasar.
I don't mean to denigrate your choice of architectural platform, but you don't indicate your level of authority/ approval of this sort of thing. I'll just sketch out how it works for very large companies and you can cut out the middle layers for your own purposes.
Accounting, as a department, would work with IT to locate the best application for their requirements, with respect to the following: 1) fitness with current or predicted ERP solution(s) if extant, so you don't buy something that doesn't work with SAP, for example; 2) fitness with current architectural plan or standards, so you don't bring in an AS/400 into a Windows-only shop or a one-off solution (i.e. requiring an Oracle database in a DB2 shop); 3) fitness with what other parts of the company are using, so you don't duplicate the efforts of another part of your company.
I could only imagine a scaled down version, but it will probably be something like this: the IT person charged with finding the app should bring in an accounting rep right now, such that the rep has the authority or can acquire the authority to purchase a solution. Then your IT point man should be pulling down all viable candidates that fit the constraints, and then running demos and shootouts based on real user requirements (I'm assuming IT has their requirements being met during the selection of candidates).
I wasn't seeing this in the original request, and I've been through enough of these to recognize when a solution may be getting anointed without enough due diligence of the other, more critical issues. Sorry to break it to you, but if the best package for your business happens to be a Windows-only app, you need to get over your Spheniscidaen bias and do the right thing by your accounting folks. The best app for them may not be the best app for IT, but that's why you get paid the big bucks, fella.
-BA
The job of the accounting department (like any end user) is to write the specification. "We need GL, A/P, A/R, payroll, federal and state taxes, etc.", with additional constraints as required. Must support million+ records. Must support multiple concurrent users. All of the fun domain stuff.
And that's it. If they say "we need package XYZ", they're as off-base as a technical person saying that they must us the Simpson-Barr deprecation schedule for domestic exotic livestock.
The tech people must consult with the accounting department, of course, since both groups need to keep training and maintenance costs in mind, but the final word has to be the CIO/IT department since they understand the cost of integrating the application into their existing shop. The cost of the software itself is usually trivial compare to the human costs and there could be a 100% markup on one package over a nearly identical one if one requires staff obtain and manage hardware outside of their usual expertise.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Looks pretty black and white to me.
A) Switch OSs. This makes the users and the company happy and saves the company thousands of dollars compared to...
B) Switch Applications. This makes one whiny IT guy happy and will cost the company thousands of dollars in lost time and effort making the conversion and retraining.
Looks like "dump Linux" is the smart choice here.
And the guy (or two) to lift a hammer weighing sixty-odd pounds.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Take a look at http://www.conetic.com/ -- Conetic Software's web site. Conetic developed - C/Books - a suite of nine accounting modules that are fully customizable. The extensive suite of development tools (both for windows and Linux) allow the system to modified to the businesses unique needs; they even have a Web database proxy server to allow a secure method of making the accounting data available via the internet. As for the client side -- C/Books can be accessed via a native Linux GUI client, a windows client and character based terminals. Conetic has supported Linux since 1992 and currently supports several linux platforms -- 32-bit & 64-bit linux. The best part is the pricing module. Conetic products are licensed by concurrent number of users -- so price should not be an issue.
I have a client which is an accounting firm in the US. They primarily use Thompson's Creative Solutions, which they use for both payroll and general ledger for a variety of clients.
I've seen worse software - but I've also seen MUCH better. It seems to be written on an Access base, which I think is the root of most of the problems. It no longer just randomly crashes for no reason, but it still occasionally decides to corrupt a data file for no apparent reason. (To date this has been recoverable...) Network performance on very fast machines and switched fast ethernet is terrible - even though it's only single-user on a given client. And of course it's Windows only. (Although we use a little Samba server, which otherwise performs quite nicely)
I'd love to recommend a move to a cross platform solution - but frankly I'd love to move to anything that didn't suck as much, even if it still required a Windows client. But obviously the needs of a multi-client package aren't the same as a solution sold to in-house accounting at a midsized business.
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Don't overlook manual methods.
People used to have to do their accounts before computers were invented. They managed fine. Don't assume that you have to use a computer; the simple fact is you don't. Everyone should learn to do their accounts by hand first, before they're allowed anywhere near a computer. Also, non-erasable pen and paper have one obvious advantage that you can't get with a computerised system: there is no UNDO function.
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
We aren't talking about a mom and pop shop. We are looking at a 400 person company. Manually compiling the payroll alone would be cost prohibitive.
Not to mention since he's a health care provider, the company is required to file their A/R electronically by HIPAA.
If you were actually doing your job - your preferred solution would be that which was better for your employer. Instead, what's clear, is you place your own religious beliefs ahead of any other consideration.
TinyERP - http://tinyerp.com/ - email me for support options....
The GPL, for those that truely understand.
Does this have something to do with Penguins?
Switching OSes means the users and the company have to adjust to a new OS instead of a new app. Would that be your choice if it'd been a Windows app moving to Linux? Think about it -- would you rather learn a new app or a new OS?
Also: Long-term, switching OSes means they have to pay for Vista (thousands of dollars for 400 users, unless they get a deal), and they have to keep paying the Microsoft tax for new versions. It seems very likely to me that if this establishment is around for very long, the sheer cost savings of sticking with the OS that's free forever will offset retraining -- even assuming they go for a proprietary app.
And realize, you're advocating ActiveX. Is that really what you want people to use? I mean, all other things equal, would you advocate IIS+ActiveX (oh, and hold everyone back to IE6, when IE7 is a "critical update") over Apache+standards?
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
You have an existing accounting system that works, and the only thing that would change is that they wish to use Windows instead of Linux as an OS?
And you're suggesting moving the entire accounting system into a new software package just so you can keep it in Linux?
I'm betting you haven't discussed this with your boss, or with anyone who has ever moved accounting systems between packages.
Keep what works and don't complicate people's lives. Instead going on wild goose chases, take a couple of days and learn the basics of administering the new Vista or XP box.
Three Squirrels
1) The IEs4Linux FAQ says that "ActiveX may not work with some special cases" not that it does not work. Best to just test it in this particular instance.
2) Switching to a couple of IIS servers and installing IE on the 400 Linux desktops is easier then switching 400 desktops to MS Windows.
3) As others have mentioned, it is not about the success of Linux, it is about freedom. The poster is quite happy to use a proprietary accounting package to store and manage the data. Does not sound like an attractive nor wise decision.
How often is sticking with a vendor who drops a supported platform better for your employer? How often is being forced to switch platforms just to stay with one vendor better for your employer? Doing that would be fanatic.
One option that I've heard of that runs on Linux (and many other platforms) is Southware.
Have you taken a look at NOLA? It looks (from the outside) like something you could work with.
http://www.nolapro.com/
Also check out this site it has alot of options listed http://www.aaxnet.com/design/linuxacct.html
I wouldn't want to switch to windows either.
Just a few points-
:)
IEs4Linux is a neat thing (all of WINE, in general), but it is not terribly reliable, uses a lot of resources, and if there were even the slightest problem we would get zero support from the application vendor. Plus, that doesn't help with the server side (which is just as important).
We have 400 employees, and 150 users (not 400), and 130 thin-client Linux-based desktops.
Yes, it is about freedom- freedom to choose the server and client platforms. It is especially important when our whole system is already based around the platform of our choice (Linux). But the cost of that "freedom" is throwing away 80% (?) of the possible vendors, who don't support the platform. Nothing in life is free
I would give the highest preference to any vendor that met our application specifications and also supported all (reasonably all, anyway) platforms. The open/closed nature of the software application is mostly not important to us, as long as we have reliable support (training, improvements, patches, diagnostic, regulatory compliance changes, etc).
this guy is looking for an accounting solution.....
now there one thing the "move to windows" crowd are forgetting this is an accounting solution....a solution for accountants...
option 1
burn huge hole in the bank, and pay the micro-mafia tax.
or
option 2
new accounting software modules, cheaper and quicker then installing windows on any number of computers
now if you were an accountant which would you go for?....in terms of money having somebody develop new software for your company or switching to better software might be cheaper then being exploited.
i mean its the whole total cost of pwnership debate with the cost factor thrown in for good measure
"Stallman says add to this code and you are one of us. Gates says use this code and you belong to us."
It wouldn't take much for Quicken to get Quickbooks running nicely under Wine, at least a 2003 version I have runs almost perfectly under Crossover.
I know it doesn't help our non x86 bretheren but with just a little tweaking here and there Linux desktops could finally have a good small business accounting system.
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Nope - if you read the fine print, apparently the company is not only ditching Linux, they are ditching Progress (whatever that is some ancient 4GL?) and rewriting in
Take Acenza for example. This is workflow system (sorta, missing a few features), that the company discontinued in '06, wanting it's customers to move to their *Enterprise* product, which is much better.
But I was talking to one of the original developers, and he said they probably have it on tape, when the Acenza salesperson mentioned, just a couple years before, how the company was really supporting the product, how much they were putting in to the product, etc etc. Right.
Here's a very cool system:
Apache Open for Business Project
http://ofbiz.apache.org/
From the site:
"The Apache Open For Business Project is an open source enterprise automation software project licensed under the Apache License Version 2.0. By open source enterprise automation we mean: Open Source ERP, Open Source CRM, Open Source E-Business / E-Commerce, Open Source SCM, Open Source MRP, Open Source CMMS/EAM, and so on."
.. we have several good browser-based accounting software systems, that is usable with Linux or whatever. For example Netvisor has integrated electronic invoices, banks (bank statements, payments, direct debit payments..), goverment e-services, invoice/document scanning by 3rd parties, ledgers, accounting of course, controller reporting and analysis, budgeting and a lot more. Though this does not help much, because it's localized in Finland (and semi-localized in neighboring countries), and Finland has a lot more advanced banking/goverment e-services infrastracture that in the states..
You people deal with checks? Amazing...
If the UK is anything to go by, Payroll is the big stumbling block for running a full accounts system on Linux desktops. The government is always tinkering with the employment legislation, introducing new benefits and then removing them two years later. The commercial payroll software suppliers, and I'm thinking particularly of Sage here, have to stay on top of these changes, modify the software as well as the parameters every time there's a budget. They then have to roll out the changes to all customers in time for the new tax year and the updates MUST work. I just did a quick search on Sage's website and got the message "There were no results returned for your search criteria 'linux'." The accounting systems barely change at all so that's a much easier proposition. I'm curious now, has anyone in the UK got a payroll solution running on Linux desktops? (I'm talking native apps, ignoring wine for the moment)
I have a small software shop. I use nolapro. It's a hosted service and runs in any browser. I've used it a lot on Linux w/ firefox. The system is too complete for me, I don't use a quarter of it. It has everything you're asking for. I think they give free trials, so it's worth trying out.
Citizens Against Plate Tectonics
You have apparently heard there's something called HIPAA. Good for you.
...
"Since he's a health care provider, the company is required to file their A/R electronically by HIPAA"
Why anyone thinks this is beyond me; why they'd be so foolish as to post it as a truth statement?
HIPAA does not just cover computery goodness. HIPAA also covers what staff say in public corridors. It covers medical records - paper or electronic. It covers FAX machines, for goodness' sakes.
It's possible that a large place with a lot of private-pay patients would indeed have AR and GL that would include HIPAA protected information. But that would be true whether the info was stored on paper, electronically, or by searing it in 6 point font onto the backsides of you and all of your spawn unto the 8th generation and keeping you chained in a malodorous pen out by the loading dock, periodically swilling you with waste from abscess drainages.
All of which would be fine ways to store the data, and the last might be an excellent way of speeding our fiscal audit. I'll have to look into the cost of bringing in a branding kit with movable typefaces.
This is a full featured accounting package that runs on Linux and other things. In Linux, it is character oriented. The package is designed to be customizable.
Apache has the Open for Business project (http://ofbiz.apache.org/) for high-end CRM/accounting integration. Opentaps (http://opentaps.org/) packages it with a low-end setup overhead.
People who start small businesses often have some unique product or widget (pun intended). Most of them don't have extensive training in accounting, so they think "Accounting! That's something I have to do as a small business owner." So they go look for accounting software for their computers. Or, they hope for the day they'll be large enough to justify the expense of hiring an accountant.
Like most people who have computers purchased or ordered with the Microsoft OS pre-installed, they have been brainwashed regarding security threats and can become paralyzed with paranoia regarding software installation. But they still continue to cling to the Microsoft way; they do so because they don't know any better or that the essential concept of "competition" among businesses and how competition is facilitated by innovation and hindered by lack of information. But who competes with Microsoft? Perhaps I'm idealist, but I really think there should be another option for people who don't want to feed the big dudes in corporate and governmental bureaucracy or the marketing hype and associated with the iPod generation.
Quickbooks is set up to be idiot-friendly, run like an installation disk . . . like people who go to have their taxes done by H&R Block or Jackson-Hewitt sit through an interview process or "consultation" are essentially just answering questions they could answer online. Tax accounting is the least logical form of any accounting. (Interesting side-note: the last place I interviewed for a job, it became OBVIOUS to me that the person interviewing me had not even read my resume, which she obtained online, or the "questionnaire" I'd subsequently filled out at her company's request prior to her interviewing me. That interview went bad fast.) Why should people be subjected to such redundancy? Hey, if you can read and type and comprehend, you've got some marketable skills. Headhunters don't like me when I tell them I prefer to not print out my resume, as it's easily available and viewable just as I have formatted it online.)
The people at the top of the income brackets usually try to figure out some way to keep people working in the lowest income brackets working in those low income brackets for as long as possible using various tax deductions. I've heard from the mouth of one CPA (former inlaw -- reason for the formerness of the relationship; would you be interested to know that he is married to a realtor?) something quite unethical regarding printing out of receipts which do not exist in order to claim the tax deduction and for the purpose of "itemizing deductions"! And they do it because they think they can get away with it at the expense of the less fortunate, all the while claiming a "tax deduction"!
If a company -- moreover a "staffing company or agency!" -- doesn't even have a website, or if that website has a glaringly amateur webpage spelling error for one of the most important words to people seeking work in their specific , I think there's a reason for concern.
So, and Why On Earth is there a technically-literate class of homeless people in this country?