MySpace Not Guilty in Child Assault Case

An anonymous reader writes "The Washington Post reports that a Texas judge dismissed a $30 million case against MySpace for their role in a child assault case. 19-year old Peter Solis lied about his age on MySpace to gain the confidence of a 13-year old girl. The judge ruled, 'To impose a duty under these circumstances for MySpace to confirm or determine the age of each applicant, with liability resulting from negligence in performing or not performing duty, would of course stop MySpace's business in its tracks and close this avenue of communication.'" What do you think? Good call?

Comments

What do you think? Good call?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep.

Texas Judges

[Ice Wewe]

Good for MySpace, I'm just surprised he didn't get the death penalty!

Re:Texas Judges

[pak9rabid]

Excellent choice. Parents need to take responsibility for their poor parenting instead of trying to blame it on external sources.

Re:Texas Judges

[PFI_Optix]

Race statistics on current Texas death row inmates:

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/racial.htm

Compare that to the race statistics for murders nationwide that *should* be available here:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/violent_cri me/murder_homicide.html

I say should be because I can't currently view the page...my office's content filter doesn't like it. It should show that roughly half the murders committed in the US were committed by blacks, the other half by whites. Hispanic is not considered a race by the FBI, and are grouped in with whites--you'll need to account for that when viewing the table in the first link.

It would appear that the death row in Texas fairly accurately reflects national murder trends, with blacks grossly overrepresenting themselves by commission of the crime.

Tangent: There are roughly six times as many whites in the US as there are blacks. According to the FBI statistics, they split the murder statistics equally...making a black person six times more likely to commit murder than a white person. Of course, some 85+% of their victims are black; as a white man, I'm six times more likely to be killed by a white person.

Right now some people who know me by a different name from a different web forum just figured out who I am :D

Re:Texas Judges

[Pojut]

You do realize that a parent can take steps to keep their child safe without actually harming their progress, yes?

Take my parents for example. When we got the internet in my home for the first time, my computer was moved to the family room. My parents didn't stand over me watching what I did, but they at least were in the same room when I was online. In addition, they would check the history to see where I had been.

As time went on, they began trusting my judgement more and more. My mom even had one of her friends start talking to me without telling me who she really was in an attempt to see if I would give out sensitive personal information. When she was satisfied that I wouldn't, the computer was moved back into my room and I was allowed to have privacy online (yes, that means they also stopped looking at where I was going.) Every now and then, either she or my step-dad would pose as a random person in an attempt to make sure I was still being safe with my conversations (I was a chat room fanatic for a while).

Exactly 1 year after we got the net (8 months of which the computer was in the family room) and for my 12th birthday, they bought me a brand spankin' new computer and VERY rarely checked on me again...I think the last time they did was when I was 14 (I'm 23 now, for reference.)

So you see? Parents can ensure their kids are safe without being imposing. When we first got the 'net, they sat me down and explained what is ok (first name, age, state, etc.) and not ok (last name, full address, phone number, social, birthdate, etc.) to tell people online.

It worked splendidly.

Re:Texas Judges

[PFI_Optix]

Black people get blamed for a lot they didn't do and can't afford fancy overpriced lawyers the whites can. Is it any wonder we blame them for murders they didn't commit to ease our own burden?

Uh huh. So basically five out of six black convicts were framed for crimes committed by whites? Gotcha.

For proof, look at any confirmed serial killer, they are always white. Now ask yourself why that isn't the case in normal murders. Does it make sense? No.

Hyperbole, and grossly inaccurate. It's hard to get good statistics on serial killers, but I'll agree that whites dominate the category. Of course, serial killers are a specific kind of murderer with radically different motives than an armed robber or jilted lover. The profile for a serial killer generally indicates a measure of wealth...it seems that poverty produces few serial killers. Last I heard, blacks were three times more likely to be poor, so of course their serial killer rates are low.

Like with Hurricane Katrina, it takes disasters like this to show how rasist society really is. When a cop is looking for a murderer, he's 10x more like to detain a black person than a white person. Now ask yourself why do all the convicted "murderers" are black.

Proof? Proof? Proof? (/Ben Stein)

I suspect if you could administer a 100% accurate lie detector test, the black populations would be cut by 80% in prisons and the white population would skyrocket.

And I suspect if you actually put any stock in what you were saying, you wouldn't be posting AC. I also strongly suspect that all your statistics are hand-delivered by a proctologist...they were too deep for you to find without help.

Here's my typical rant on this topic:

There is a culture in America that appeals to the poor urban population, a population that is steadily becoming black in most of the country. It's a culture that glorifies violence, demonizes education, and preaches that success can only be had through conflict or physical prowess. It, like a lot of cultures born out of poverty, keeps those born into it uneducated and poor. The difference between this and other poverty cultures is that violence is a major part of daily life, and that is carried by those who rise out poverty--just look at professional athletes and rap stars. Because this culture maintains ignorance and preaches oppression, no outside influence is going to undo it. It's up to the millions of blacks in America who want the same things the rest of us want to put a stop to the cycle of poverty, ignorance, and violence that is plaguing them as a people.

Moo

[Apocalypse111]

So, now that we have seen "common sense" used in a court case, can we use this as precedent for all future rulings?

Re:Moo

[Karganeth]

Common sense in a courtroom? Now thats an oxymoron.

Obvious

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

What do you think? Good call?

Is the phone company responsible for verifying the age of people talking so a 19 year old can't lie to a 13 year old and then commit a crime? How about newspaper personal ads, are the newspaper's responsible? What ISPs who provide e-mail accounts? You know those companies that create voice boxes for people with throat cancer? Are they responsible for verifying the age of the person using them so they cannot be misused for this same purpose?

Blaming the medium or the tools is just plain stupid. This was, of course, a correct decision

Re:Obvious

[orpheum]

Absolutely it was a good call. Personally I'm sick and tired of parents assuming that organizations are going to take care of them and protect them from every single little thing that might hurt them or their family members, children included. If you can't teach your own children common sense on how to use a communication medium as volatiles as a website, then perhaps you shouldn't have an Internet connection in the first place. Even if you have anti-virus, anti-spam, anti-spyware, anti-phising and pop-up blockers installed on your computer doesn't give you the right to click on that link that says "Anna Kournikova naked! Click here!" or to assume that anyone you meet on a site like MySpace.com is legit. You seriously wanna go ahead and meet someone in person? Do it in a public place and only after you've spoken to them for several months on end.

Re:Obvious

[gergoge]

There isn't a difference. Any information provided is user-submitted. If I find your home phone number, call it, and tell you I'm really a sexy 17 year old blonde girl looking for some good lovin', and you buy into it, everything at fault here is due to my lying to you, not the telco.

Re:Obvious

[drinkypoo]

Blaming the medium or the tools is just plain stupid. This was, of course, a correct decision

I've got an even better comparison. Do we sue the city when someone is raped or molested in public? The technology exists to prevent it - just cover the streets with cops! Of course it would be horribly expensive, but the fact remains that we have the ability to stop if if we make some hard decisions, that will utterly cripple our city, drain the coffers, and make life basically unlivable. But we can stop public rape!

But of course that would be utterly ridiculous, and the only reason that a lawsuit like this can even proceed is that it's computer-related, and most people have no clue about computers, so they are afraid of them, and that fear can be used. Kind of sounds like something else going on in our (American) society right now...

Re:Obvious

[Phat_Tony]

It can not be as general as "all websites have common carrier status," like all phone companies and all package carriers receive, because there are plenty of legitimate web business models that work on the opposite presumption. For example, this is more or less the case with true.com. Their whole thing is that they are trying to check people's identities to prevent jerking around with fake identities on dating sites. Now, I"m not saying they should be liable, but suppose that at some point the problem on myspace grows and becomes more serious, and some startup comes along with the business plan that they'll attract business, particularly from minors who's parents point them there, by guaranteeing the authenticity of their account holders. The whole point is that they check all of this for the safety of users who cant or won't take appropriate precautions and watch out for themselves, making it a safe, or at least safer, community. You can't let them be automatically exempted from responsibility for user verification too just because they're a website, if they're selling user verification as a product. Common carrier status for all websites would amount to legalizing breach of contract, or at least false advertising, for this kind of company, basically making their potentially useful business model worthless because it would be unenforceable.

As long as websites aren't advancing claims regarding user authenticity, then I think they should have common carrier status. But the entire web shouldn't automatically receive it, it depends on the context. Caveat Emptor for any site that's not making specific claims regarding the authenticity of their content. For sites making claims, it would be taken on a case-by-case basis, and there may well be reasonable grounds for complaints and lawsuits.

Re:Obvious

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

There is a significant difference. THe phone company doesnt list your age and gender....

Suppose I list a business number as Paul's Adult Entertainment, but I'm only 13 and my real name in Cindy? Should the phone company check to see if I'm an adult male? Do they have to?

...nor does it do peer to peer networking.

The phone company does peer-to-peer networking as much as MySpace does.

My only dismay at this judgement is that that the reason is interferring with MySpaces business, rather than assert user responsibility.

Responsibility lies with the creep that molested people.

The 13 year holds some responsibility and that should be noted.

Ethically, perhaps, but legally this is not so. 13 year olds have no legal rights, thus have no legal responsibilities. Until they are granted the right to free speech, and the right to sleep with anyone they want, and the right to go wherever they want, you can't hold them legally responsible for saying the wrong thing, going somewhere they should not, or having sex.

As for the ethics, I'm of the opinion that it is all of society's responsibility to protect and teach children until such a time as they can take responsibility for themselves. The responsibility in this case is with the parents of this child, who are supposed to be responsible for them and with the molester.

Re:Obvious

[Rogerborg]

Speaking of asshats, if you read on, you'll find the actual important precedent in the ruling:

"If anyone had a duty to protect Julie Doe, it was her parents, not MySpace."

placing blame

[physicsboy500]

In the end, according to the judge, "If anyone had a duty to protect Julie Doe, it was her parents, not MySpace."

It's really amazing what's passed off as someone else's fault when the blame should have been placed on the people passing it. Congrats to the judge for making a great call and boohiss to the parents for trying to close down our beloved myspace...

home of over a million unread emo thoughts.

Yep, the only call

[stratjakt]

This is like suing blockbuster because my membership card says "Gulliver" (which isn't my name - but they didn't check!), and somebody were to accept my (written in ink) blockbuster card as some form of ID. Say the bank were to loan a hundered thousand dollars to "Gulliver McMadeUpName", and then sue Blockbuster when I defaulted.

This was a ridiculous and frivolous suit. MySpace has no obligation to verify the truth of any information any random person posts. They aren't bondsmen.

The ramifications if this were taken seriously would be huge. Every web forum, including slashdot, would have to perform thorough background checks with 3 forms of government ID, before accepting members.

Re:Yep, the only call

[stratjakt]

Actually, I had a thought.

I should file a 30 million dollar suit against slashdot, because someone put up a link that said it was an article about the SCO/IBM lawsuit, but was really a picture of a mans grotesquely distended asshole.

Same thing, really.

I TRUSTED YOU SLASHDOT how could you let this happen.

Re:Yep, the only call

[robbiethefett]

oh, sorry about that, that was actually an artist's rendering of the security in window's vista.

Re:Yep, the only call

[stimpleton]

"...but was really a picture of a mans grotesquely distended asshole"

Link please.

Thumbs up

[argStyopa]

It's a good call.
It's the parent's responsibility to keep an eye on their kid, including their internet activity (even if that is inconvenient or time-consuming for the parent).

Suing Myspace is like suing the phone company - they're only the medium, ma'am.

yes, good call

[AxemRed]

I don't see how it's a company's job to keep people from lying on the internet. If it was, AOL's chat rooms would be in a lot of trouble...

Bad reasoning

[mrchaotica]

Although the judge's conclusion was correct, the reasoning he applied was flawed: it's not that MySpace shouldn't be liable because its business model depends on it, it's that MySpace shouldn't be liable because it's the parents' responsibility to care for their kids, and MySpace isn't anybody's parent.

Re:Bad reasoning

[mrchaotica]

And so what? If that were the legal requirement, then the only proper course of action would be to enforce it even if it did result in MySpace having to shut down. Lucky for us and MySpace, DOPA (or "son of DOPA") isn't law so it wasn't a requirement (and therefore wasn't enforced).

But the point is this: any kind of concern for "business models" is entirely irrelevant regardless, because it's the court's job to enforce the law, not give corporate handouts!

About time ...

[gstoddart]

This ruling, hopefully, will stop all of those propositions the government keep trying to make to ensure that everyone will somehow be responsible for ensuring that children don't get onto their site.

This seems to finally accept that it's just not possible to correctly validate the information that everyone gives you online.

For the same reason they won't be able to identify when people claim to be younger, they won't be able to stop kids from saying they're old enough to be there.

Depending on the level of court making this decision (and wether or not this establishes precedent) this might make it more difficult to sa, for example, that porn vendors are responsible for confirming that all applicants aren't kids or registered sex offenders. It's simply not possible to do it.

Cheers

you know

[TheCarp]

I really want to know more about the psychology of this and how it comes about. I mean... who wants to be with a 13 yo anyway? Though, 19 meh... I have known 19 year olds who have dated 13 year olds, its usually a case of an overly marture 13 year old and an immature 19 year old. Hell, one of my best friends today was 19 and dated my sister when she was 14 and going on 15.

I can attest that at 19, he wasn't quite at her level then. At 28, he still isn't now, but thats another story :)

But I digress... and far. This is an issue of assault more than age. Who cares how old he was? What he did was wrong at any age where the person can tell right from wrong. I really don't see how age verification will help. 13 year olds arn't that hard to talk into doing things that their authority figures don't approve of, hell he might have had an easier time with his real age... 13 year olds think 19 year olds are cool and mature.

The reason I say I want to know more about it, was I saw those dateline shows where they caught and outed a bunch of guys who did this stuff and interviewed them. It was sobering. Sobering that it was happening, and sobering to see these guys interviewd.

They seemed.... mostly normal. The only thing really different about them seemed to be that they seemed rather socially undeveloped. I really got the feeling they were going after young easily influenced girls because, they seemed to lack the social skills to get a girl their own age. As a slashdot geek, I am pretty familiar with some of the behavious.

I guess what bugs me, is I saw myself at different points in my life in their stories and thought, that with a slightly different values, and influences in my life, could I have been one of these guys showing up at a 13 year olds house with a six pack of cheap malt beverages?

While its easy to deamonize people who try to do, or do bad things, and we have to deal with this from a criminal justice standpoint when it happens. However, shouldn't we be looking at our society and how we can help to not create people who are in the situation where a 13 year old starts to look like a viable option?

It seems to me like these guys needed something. It wasn't a 13 year old girl they really needed, but it wasn't anything that time in jail was going to fix either. Most of them had even seen the show in the past, so the threat of incarceration certainly wasn't stopping them.

I think it behooves us to understand these issues at a deeper level, and try to solve them from their source rather than their symptoms.

-Steve

Re:you know

[stratjakt]

One episode of that show bothered me a lot, usually I actually "enjoy" it, in the sense that I see predators get what they deserve. Sick dudes showing up naked, expecting to meet an 8 year old boy, etc.

One episode, however, had them posing as a 15 year old girl. Just under the legal age of 16 - I remember them distinctly saying that, in the chat, something like "i'll be 16 in a month". They engaged in lots of explicit chat, and "come on over and visit me" type stuff with an 18 year old guy, some kid who'd just joined the army.

They grilled the guy forever, and portrayed him as some kind of sick monster, but I sat there watching this going "hey, the guy talked to someone only 3 years younger, every bit his peer, who actually enticed him over". At 18, I might have done the same thing. In fact, at 18, I did do the same thing (hit on 15/16 year olds). I hope that kid got a good lawyer, and I hope that lawyer successfully argued entrapment.

In reality, he was probably never even charged - lost aren't, the "evidence" they gather is usually pretty shakey heresay type stuff.

It just took the whole question of "child predators" out of the world of black and white, and slapped a nice thick coat of grey paint on it. Ever since then, I view that show (and programs like it) as witch hunts.

Re:you know

[TheCarp]

Or speaking of being "wired that way"

These guys are "wired normal". A Paedophile is someone attracted to pre-pubecent people.

13 is pubecent... a guy attracted to a 13 year old is a male animal attracted to a fertile female animnal.... he is doing exaclty what millions of years of evolution taught him to do and society tried to unteach.... and on some level... failed.

I think thats my real problem. There is grass on the field. a 13 year old girl will often have a strong sex drive. The few women who I know that have been really open and honest about their teenage years have told me they would spend hours masturbating at that age.

Now I know 13 year olds in our culture are nowhere near as mature as they could be...and in terms of their maturity, probably far behind in the area of sex compared to other areas, since our culture seems hell bent on intentionally retarding their growth. (and thus leaving them even easier prey)

However.... I do think we have to keep nature in mind when we look at these crimes. Should it be illegal? Yah probably. Is it wrong? Yah usually. How bad is it? I don't know, I mean... I have a problem faulting people for just... being what they are.

Besides, I think its far healthier to start young than late. More so for men than women since there is still alot of social expectation laid on us, and starting mostly in my mid-late 20s, its been quite an uphill battle to become more normal and make sex part of my life. I wish to the gods I don't believe in that I had started at 13.

-Steve

Frivolous suits

[TheMeuge]

Myspace is not liable for this any more than the phone company is liable for the prank and threatening phone calls. I don't know about the rest of the /. community, but I am dead tired of the continuous attempts to impose liability on the carrier for the content. This goes to the very core of undermining the openness and freedom of the internet, as a neutral medium for communication and sharing of information. Verdict for the plaintiff would have been a horrible precedent.

Re:Frivolous suits

[DerekLyons]

Myspace is not liable for this any more than the phone company is liable for the prank and threatening phone calls. I don't know about the rest of the /. community, but I am dead tired of the continuous attempts to impose liability on the carrier for the content.

If MySpace was a carrier - you'd have a point. But MySpace has nothing in common with the phone company (while the ISP providing acess to MySpace does). Don't confuse levels.
 
I if built a building - and allowed kids to come in and hang out, decorate, dance, whatever... Under the law I'd sure as hell be liable if a adult or older child was preying on younger children in my building - but the transport system they used to get there wouldn't be. (Check out the legal concepts of in loco parentis and attractive nusiance.) Why should MySpace be any different?
 

Verdict for the plaintiff would have been a horrible precedent.

On the contrary - a verdict for the plaintiff would have been a wonderful precedent. Why? Because it would establish that the owner of a space is responsible for what happens there of he can reasonably prevent it. Whether that space is physical *or* virtual. It's the same as the pool in my backyard - if I don't take adequate measures to limit acess to it, then I am liable if a child drowns himself in it. (Hence, my backyard is fenced and has a locked gate as per code.) I don't see whay virtual spaces should be exempt from the same kind of regulation.
 

This goes to the very core of undermining the openness and freedom of the internet, as a neutral medium for communication and sharing of information.

On the contrary - reasonable regulation and openess and freedom are not mutually exclusionary. Consider the Federal highway system - anyone can acess it and go anywhere it goes as and when they will. But they may not drive on in such a fashion as to endanger the life and health of others. I can use the telephone system for a variety of purposes, entertainment or business - but I may not use telemarketing except under a fairly strict set of circumstances.
 
And if you want the internet to open and free - then that applies to spammers and sites that open a dozen pornographic popups when you visit it as much as it does to MySpace. You can't have it both ways.
 
And I find it bitterly amusing that the same Slashdot community who wants to put the blame on the parents in this case - raises a huge outcry whenever someone floats the idea of logging software as limiting the rights of the child. You can't have it both ways folks - either the parent is reponsible for the behavior (and thus has the authority to limit those rights), or they aren't and don't. Responsobilitiy and authority are twin sides of the same coin.

Re:Frivolous suits

[SatanicPuppy]

I think most people here rightly believe that the best way to deal with your children is not to go all "big brother" on them, and install monitoring software and cameras, but instead to take the time to foster the sort of relationship with your child that makes those measures unnecessary.

That being said, I don't know of anyone here who disputes that parents have the right to do those things should they choose to do so.

And the internet is held to a vastly different standard of proof from a physical building...In the case of a physical building you can quite easily require identification from every person before they gain entrance. On the internet, there is no way to make sure that the information which you collected accurately represents the person who is using your service. No way. To hold MySpace accountable for user created content when they have no possible way of accurately identifying their userbase is absurd.

To hold them accountable would literally kill the internet in this country, because every site could be held liable for every post, and, even more frightening, all real world actions that occur because of that post.

Excellent ruling.

Re:Frivolous suits

[rifter]

And I find it bitterly amusing that the same Slashdot community who wants to put the blame on the parents in this case - raises a huge outcry whenever someone floats the idea of logging software as limiting the rights of the child.

We don't raise outcry when parents log their kids' behaviour. Hell there have been a good bunch of threads where slashdotters discussed keylogging spouses/[boy|girl]friends. What we tend to object to tends to be more of the following:

1) Porn blocking software that blocks legitemate content, as when, for instance a major software package that is supposed to be blocking porn, etc was blocking things like the Democratic Party website.

2) Laws requiring bad software like the above to be installed in schools and public libraries. I don't think most of us mind the idea of schools and workplaces blocking porn as long as that is really what they are blocking. But in the case of libraries there is the question of blocking adults from things that are either inappropriately flagged or might legitemately be inappropriate for children yet are legitemate research sources for adults or even perhaps teenagers (teenagers make this sort of thing more complicated, which is just another reason to hate them :D ).

3) Logging and such by entities other than parents, especially of adults. Context determines how egregious this is.

Still, I'd say of all these things the one most likely to find a majority of slashdotters up in arns is the wrongful blocking of information, especially in the educational and research setting (like schools and libraries). I doubt you could find a majority of slashdotters opposed to the idea of parents being given *working* tools to stem the tide of pornography flying before their toddlers' faces. There might be a significant number who will say they don't want to overtly block their own children from any part of the net, but I doubt that the majority here really believes we should prevent parents from being able to do it if they choose to. Even so we don't like the idea that the parent who wants to keep their kid from seeing tubgirl will end up inadvertantly and unknowingly keeping them from seeing the world wildlife foundation website or wikipedia or something just because some asshole knowing their database is secret slips that kind of junk into the list of offending sites to be blocked.

Re:Frivolous suits

[SatanicPuppy]

So every site, including this one, that posts anything that anyone finds objectionable, or that some (bad) parent blames for their child's misbehavior or misadventure should be held legally accountable? Nice way of passing off all your responsibility on to a third party. I'm wondering where you draw the line...If a guy chats up your daughter in the mall, should mall security have the authority to shoot on site, or would you just shock her with a nice taser jolt from the electric chastity belt you're making her wear?

And, even better, you want the government to have the authority to do witch hunts through ISP subscriber lists trying to find illegal material, and you don't see anything at all wrong with that? Very nice.

There are certainly a lot of privacy advocates here, and I'm generally considered a bit fringe because I don't believe in a right to privacy anywhere outside of your personal property/personal space.By comparison, you're not even on the same planet with the rest of us. Take your distopian nanny state and go move to china or n. korea if you don't like it here.

Re:Frivolous suits

[SatanicPuppy]

Still doesn't matter, because, after you've checked the ID and verified they are who they say they are, they leave, and then later, someone logs on using the login information you gave to the person who presented their ID.

How do you know it's the same person? There have been more than a few password hacking scams; how do you know that the user today is the same as the user yesterday?

I'm not sure how you can call MySpace and YouTube monopolies...Both companies are leaders in a crowded field, with a very low barrier to entry. MySpace is cool now, but "cool" is ephemeral, and I'll wager that they are as well, to be replaced by the next big thing with the kiddies. YouTube has the potential to survive, but it's so mainstream it leaves plenty of room for niche competitors.

I'm tired of everyone blaming their children's behavior on everyone but themselves. It is not MySpace's job to be your babysitter. It is your job to monitor your child's behavior, and if your child meets a guy online, travels three states away and then gets raped, my question is, "WTF were you doing that whole time?"

Re:Frivolous suits

[gump59]

I if built a building - and allowed kids to come in and hang out, decorate, dance, whatever... Under the law I'd sure as hell be liable if a adult or older child was preying on younger children in my building - but the transport system they used to get there wouldn't be. (Check out the legal concepts of in loco parentis and attractive nusiance.) Why should MySpace be any different? Both the original analogy and yours are both off. What you describe sounds like a day care center or place specifically for kids to hang out. You ask the question of "why should MySpace be any different?"

Well, the answer to this is because it is different. It is a place for *anybody* to hang out. Kids, adults, goatherder from Somalia, Eskimo after a seal hunt, and I suspect even my pet cat on a particularly creative day. If you leave your kid unattended at a local recreation center pool, or county fair, or shopping mall and he/she gets chatted up by some perv who gets his/her phone number, then calls and arranges to meet him/her at a later date at a different location are you going to sue the rec center, fair, or mall?

MySpace is a public forum. And just like any other public area out there, real or virtual, the owner of the space does not suddenly become responsible for parenting your children the moment they set foot in it.

Re:Frivolous suits

[Fastolfe]

I if built a building - and allowed kids to come in and hang out, decorate, dance, whatever... Under the law I'd sure as hell be liable if a adult or older child was preying on younger children in my building - but the transport system they used to get there wouldn't be. (Check out the legal concepts of in loco parentis and attractive nusiance.) Why should MySpace be any different?

This seems to fit the definition of a mall. Kids go there to hang out, and the girls and boys get dressed up to show off for each other. They shop or talk at the food court. Same thing, right? How often do you see malls getting sued because their 13 year olds met a 19 year old there? Are you saying you'd prefer to see people carded whenever they walk into a mall, and the adults separated from the children? Maybe you should propose that at your next city council meeting. Think of the children!

Because it would establish that the owner of a space is responsible for what happens there of he can reasonably prevent it.

Fortunately, the legal standard isn't just whether the harm can be reasonably prevented. You also have to consider whether or not a duty of care exists. You have a duty to keep people away from a public nuisance (such as a fence around a swimming pool). You have a duty to keep your public space safe for public use (such as by keeping walkways free from ice). The word "reasonably" in your statement is the key term here as well. It is unreasonable to expect the operator of every public park, every mall, every stop light, bus stop, bowling alley and bingo parlor to card everyone, and monitor the behavior of the people there to ensure they aren't talking about doing something improper. If you disagree, you are more than welcome to change what's "reasonable" in your community. It's a jury that decides how these terms are applied, after all. One community's "unreasonable" may not be the same as another's. That's by design.

The mere fact that a space can be used as a place for meeting or discussion doesn't make it an attractive nuisance. You must have skipped this day in law school.

Consider the Federal highway system - anyone can acess it and go anywhere it goes as and when they will. But they may not drive on in such a fashion as to endanger the life and health of others. I can use the telephone system for a variety of purposes, entertainment or business - but I may not use telemarketing except under a fairly strict set of circumstances.

Nobody's arguing that laws or regulation aren't needed. But attacking the medium has a substantially different effect than attacking the offenders. When you attack the medium, you require the operators of the medium to do your policing, and when you hold them to high standards (such as carding everyone and isolating age groups), that may drive expenses unreasonably high.

You give the highway system and telephone systems as examples of where regulation is present and doesn't seem to hurt our freedoms. You forgot to suggest that the highway and telephone system operators be held liable for the illegal activities that occur over them. Should the US be liable for every case of drug trafficking over the highways? Should the telephone system be liable for every drug deal done over the phone? When you suggest that the operators of these systems have a duty to prevent these things, can you imagine the expense that would be necessary to achieve that? This is unreasonable.

You can't have it both ways folks

Perhaps it's a different group speaking up on either situation? You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the "Slashdot community" is perpetually in consensus.

Bear in mind that before we had MySpace, we had places like bowling alleys and the telephone for kids to meet and communicate with adults. No parent can be perfect with their oversight of their

In Loco Parentis

[tiberus]

This is a sick thing that happened and I think the guy should be jailed for life or worse but, what were the parents doing?!? I have to teenagers and while I won't delude myself in thinking I know everything that goes on in their lives, I have a fair idea about most of it (I hope).

I am in my son's WOW guild so I know them, I play Halo on occasion (it sucks getting my ass kicked so much) with him and his other friends. They are welcome in my house as long as they follow the rules.

I know my daughter likes manga, anime, country music, who her friends are, know their names and individual interests etc. etc.etc. Quality time is total b#$$s%^&, you have to spend time with them and know what is going on in their lives.

Wonder if her parents ever looked at her MySpace to see what she thinks, likes or is worried about...

MySpace it not at fault here, something is/was going on in that girl's life that put her in a position to want to go off and meet someone without telling her parents or at least without escort. The ball was not in MySpace's court.

No kidding..

[CasperIV]

I'm glad a judge had common sense on MySpace's behalf. People want to shift blame to the medium used for the meeting, not the people in the real world who are at fault. The only people to blame in this case are the parents and the guy who committed the crime. It was the parent's job to know what their child was doing and to prevent her from meeting people like this. The world is full of bad people, but it's the parent's jobs to protect their children. Of course, this in no way removes responsibility for the crime from the guy. All I'm saying is that HE is responsible for committing the crime and the parents are responsible for not preventing their child from falling victim to him.

Article details are wrong

[Hentai]

Actually, the guy didn't lie about his age - the *GIRL* did. She was 13, but claimed on MySpace - and presumably, in person - that she was 18. Kinda puts his actions in a different light, doesn't it?

Re:Article details are wrong

[TheCarp]

Thats pretty obnoxious. Actually this stuff tends to be shakey anyway since the definition of "assault" isn't what one expects it to be. I mean, most people, even in terms of non-sexual assault, don't really understand the difference between say "assault" and "assault and battery".

Admittedly I was ignoring the fact that "sexual assault" includes "consensual" sex if the law says one of the parties "couldn't consent". The difference between everyday and technical legal use of terms can be head spinning.

There was a case not too long back where an underage girl got into a bar with a fake id, was picked up by a major league baseball player (ok this was maybe 6-8 years ago... doesn't seem that long ago).

Even though it was in a bar, and even though she had used fake id to get in, he was still convicted. Don't know if he appealed or the conviction got overturned, but I do remember being rather incensed that such a moronic verdict was handed down.

-Steve

Re:Article details are wrong

[Hentai]

You CAN'T get that overturned - it's called "Strict Liability", and it means that even if there is NO WAY YOU COULD HAVE KNOWN that she was underage, you're STILL a filthy pedo who deserves to get butt-raped by Bubba.

Bad Job, Judge!

[Se7enLC]

The judge ruled, 'To impose a duty under these circumstances for MySpace to confirm or determine the age of each applicant, with liability resulting from negligence in performing or not performing duty, would of course stop MySpace's business in its tracks and close this avenue of communication.'"

So you're telling me that you had a chance to finally get rid of the atrocity that is MySpace and you DIDN'T???

Reasoning

[bigdavex]

To impose a duty under these circumstances for MySpace to confirm or determine the age of each applicant, with liability resulting from negligence in performing or not performing duty, would of course stop MySpace's business in its tracks and close this avenue of communication.

Hmm, MySpace's business model would collapse if we rule against them. Therefore, it must be OK.

Right decision, wrong reason.

Ruling seems to be lacking something

[harves]

It's odd to say it, but I don't think this ruling is "right". Particularly not the precedent that it sets. The judge expressed concern for MySpace's business future and for the other users of the service. Seriously, this is not "common sense", this is "big business rules".

I *do* think that the outcome is correct - but the wrong reasons were given. The correct reason would have been more directly related to the notion of personal responsibility. Not this "MySpace can't be responsible, because, oh gosh, they'd lose money if they were" crap.

Common sense my arse. The outcome matches common sense, but not the rationale. I just hope it's not used as a precedent.

Re:He Lied, She Lied

[robbiethefett]

you mean two ugly, desperate people will go on the internet and lie to each other in a desperate attempt to get sex? now, you've got to be pulling my chain.

Re:great parents

[drinkypoo]

Negligence != fault. It was the pedophiles fault. My single parent mother worked two jobs to support her two boys. There was no way she could monitor our every move. (it's amazing we survived!)

A parent doesn't have to monitor a child's every move to protect them. All they have to do is be honest and open with them and give them the information they need to protect themselves.

I can't speak for any other kids, but I stopped listening to MY parents because they were hypocritical, and otherwise generally full of shit. My dad would tell me not to smoke, but he would smoke in the car when he was taking me places and not stop when I asked him to, and as a child I was actually allergic to cigarette smoke. My mom would make up answers to questions to which she did not know the answer, maybe she thought it was fun or her insecurity would not allow her to not know the answer. Regardless, I rapidly stopped giving a shit about my parents' opinions and formed my own decisions. I am lucky enough to have been a pretty bright kid and to have been very into reading, and to have read a lot of books with very positive messages, and this served me a whole lot better than it could have.

If a parent treats a child with respect, the child will respond with respect. Unfortunately, most parents (including mine) didn't really get that. They were only concerned with me respecting them. They didn't really put effort into going the other direction until I was already an adult. But then, I moved out of the house when I was fifteen and moved in with my (considerably older) girlfriend. So they kind of had to wake up and accept that I was not their little boy any more, and in fact had not been for many years.

Funny how when something happens, everyone claims it was the parent's fault. Yet when something that would help the parents do their job, like tracking devices, XXX domain names or age limits for video games, people here scream LIBERTY and talk about what a bad idea it is. *Note, I am not endorsing tracking devices, XXX domain names or video game ratings. That's another discussion.

That's funny, because your comment very much makes it seem like you ARE endorsing these things, because you see the denial of these things as denying parents tools that would help them do their job, and you began the sentence with "Yet" as if you were denying that standpoint.

Incidentally, tracking devices exist now and if you can get your kid to wear it and not pass it off to another kid, that's cool, but they will eventually figure out a way to get the thing off. It's a big ugly watch-thing that locks onto their wrist. Better hope it doesn't get caught in anything.

What?!? No one's reading emo thoughts?

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes me so sad for all the little emo boys and girls. I think I'll go cry and maybe, you know, cut myself a little.

oh really?

[mhokie]

then who should?

Re:oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's up to the parents. It's their responsibility to either arrange for their kids to be taken care of, or even better, teach their kids how to make intelligent decisions on their own (assuming the kids are old enough).

Really, parenting shouldn't be about keeping the kids on lockdown and watching their every move so they don't get hurt or in trouble. That just fosters resentment and results in kids who grow up unable to think for themselves as adults. It certainly doesn't prepare the kids for life in the real world.

Parenting should be about teaching the kids to make the right choices for themselves, even in the absence of direct monitoring or guidance in a given situation. The parents can't possibly watch their kids or arrange for monitoring 24/7, and that's the wrong way to approach the problem anyway. I'd much rather have kids who are taught to think for themselves so they'll be able to properly handle a new situation that's never been addressed by the parent. I think way too many parents do not grasp this important point, and this is ultimately where many of them fail.

Communication sites

[nightfire-unique]

Communication sites like myspace (though not myspace in particular) are too important to the human race to damage over the abuse of one person. People are abused day in, day out, around the world. Closing or damaging myspace's ability to permit free communications will not solve this issue.

We must move forward as a species - not backwards. Our future lies in free exchange of ideas and communications, and anything that works contrary to this should be opposed.

We're a planet of billions. Keep things in perspective.

Re:Oblivious

[Qzukk]

if you dont have their number already?

Man, if only someone put together a list of phone numbers and published them... let's say in a big thick book. Then they could sell ad space and make millions!

Modern parenting needs fixing!

[marquinhocb]

So, this court case wasn't so much for MySpace, but for all online communities. I myself am not a MySpace fan, as I think they do nothing to help protect its users (See my journal about their lack of ingenuity and innovation).

However, this call was a necessary one. Although social networking sites should do what they can to help protect its users, they can't be held responsible for lousy parenting!

In today's society, everyone is always trying to blame someone else, or sue someone else. No one takes the blame for what they've done and the mistakes they've made to cause badness. And who pays the price? Well, sadly, one of the people who pays the price is kids. What happened to the day when parents' top priority was their kids? Nowadays, parents are more concerned with money and the "easy way out", than taking care of their kid.

Why on earth was a 13 year old girl able to talk to some stranger online, meet with him, without her parents ever knowing? Yes, the guy is a scoundrel. Yes, she was just a little girl. But why weren't her parents there to protect her? Why weren't they there to know exactly what she's doing online, talk to her, find out why she feels the need to meet people online (probably lonely, not many friends at school, not many boys interested in her at school, etc.). And not just confronting her and telling her "you're grounded, no more internet". They need to find out the cause of her feeling she needs to do this, and try to help.

Lastly, not every guy online is a scoundrel. Maybe this Pete Solis was, but if the girl's parents had been there to talk to her, and maybe even offer to go meet this guy with her - what kind of guy who's looking to assault a 13 year old would agree to that? He would bail out in a second, while on the other hand any guy who has a shred of decency would accept. That's the other problem with parents these days - they automatically assume the worst, and of course teenagers know this. So the teenager has no way of trusting their parent, because they know that just bringing this up with them will mean "no more internet".

So, the real issue here is, why are parents allowing their young girls to get conned online, and what are we doing to resolve this issue?

Hell yeah

[norman619]

I find it sick that parents will try to cash in on their own failure as parents and the misfortune of their child. Why seek 30 million? Why not seek criminal charges if they truly feel the operators of myspace were resp for what happened to their child? 30 million is a money grab. Seeking criminal chrages is seeking justice. Two very different things.

While I don't agree...

[Elemenope]

That your other post should have been modded troll, you are still incorrect. This line of thinking does not give itself over to slipper-slope thinking, because societies, including ours, have the legal capability to decide where certain responsibilities shift from parent to child. Before that line, it is the parents' responsibility for the child's behavior. After, it is the child's. Charles Manson, for you example, was an adult when he committed his crimes, and so was legally responsible for them, and his parents really don't enter into the picture, except perhaps for psychological curiousity's sake.

Re:While I don't agree...

[TheLink]

What practical purpose? Well if little Johnny has been going about murdering people, it'll be practical to take measures to reduce the odds of little Johnny doing it again, no matter whether the parents are to blame or little Johnny is or even it's actually the "system" which messed up little Johnny.

Whereas for stealing bubblegum, it's a lot easier for "Society" to say to little Johnny: "Bad boy, don't do it again!", and then tell the parents "Hey, you're supposed to stop little Johnny from stealing stuff!". And as far as I know, in many countries there are special places that little Johnny can get sent to (away from parents) if little Johnny doesn't stop stealing stuff AND it is still considered not "right" to send little Johnny to prison.

Like I said, a society will still have to draw arbitrary lines. Not saying they have to draw lines for everything (sure hope not!), but my point is, for practical reasons you are still going to have to draw a fair number of arbitrary lines, stupid as they may seem.

When does a embryo become a fetus, a baby, a child, an adult? When does a mix of water + flour + eggs + sugar + heat + etc become cake? When someone eats a small piece and says it's cake? When you stick a fork in it and nothing sticks to the fork when you pull it out? But what if you have 10000 different cakes made by different bakers, and you have to decide what can be legally called a cake?

There'll probably be lots of disagreement where that line is and people might get it badly wrong, but whatever it is, even if most people think it's "right" it'll still be pretty arbitrary - such is the world we live in.

Idiot people!

[bgibby9]

The problem is, people feel that just because it happened through MySpace, that they should somehow by liable for it. To be technical, it actually occurred because of the people responsible for establishing and maintaining the networks over which the two people connected, and therefore the people who invented Ethernet were also responsible for allowing this to be possible.
Terms and Conditions exist for a reason, so do Fair Use policies.
I'm sick of idiots thinking that the world is to blame for their stupidity!

Re:Texas Judges/culture

[dj_virto]

I agree absolutely. It's all about the culture. It has nothing to do with race, EXCEPT that people who see themselves as a certain race decide or are pressured to decide that they should be in a certain culture because of their race. Actually, I hesitate to even use the term race, because genetic studies are showing that every modern "race" is actually a composite of the earliest groups. Modern "races" have varying degrees of relation to each other, so for example a 'black person' who has ancestors who re-immigrated to Africa from the middle east might actually be ethnically closer to a 'white person' from Lebanon than to another 'black person'. Also that Lebanese 'white person' might have very little in common with a Swedish 'white person'. So as many people have known for a while, race is mostly an artificial social construct.

The very important super extra critical idea everyone needs to get somehow, is that you are free to join any culture you want.. Want to be an up-tight protestant disciplinarian but your skin is really dark? That's ok! Want to be cyberpunk?.. well that demographic is already open to anybody, though some ghetto people might not realize it because they are functionally illiterate. Etc..

Then, we can go one step further and criticize cultures for their failings, perhaps even combine the best aspects of different cultures. How about combining the work ethic, systematic approach of anglo-american culture with the care for your wife and family from mexican culture.. lose the isolation and lack of solidarity from anglo culture, lose machoism and the pressure for total conformity from mexican culture, compromise and just have 2 kids.. what do you get? A better outcome for all. I'd bet on it.

Multiculturalism is a dead-end street because it commits you to absurd ideas, for example you'd have to say that the ghetto gang culture of macho violence is as hunky-dory as anything else, because it's right for them, within their own culture, and follows the rules which the majority of their subgroup has effectively agreed to. Hey if you think that right and wrong are totally relative, and you think it's just fine and dandy if someone gets shot, or lives in fear of getting shot, then this view makes sense. To me, it's pretty nutty.

It also had an inherent contradiction. Everyone's culture is equally as good, so everyone is as likely to be successful. But, at the same time, multiculti advocates want to say that everyone's culture's way of life is just as healthy as anyone else's. So a culture that does not think it is important to read to or otherwise educate your kids (especially girls) is somehow as likely to produce a successful citizen and also can't be criticized for not reading to their kids? Am I missing something here? Or is the key that multiculti argues ultimately that a sub-literate person who lives on nothing but second-hand folk knowledge and knows little about anything outside their subgroup is just as good as anybody else? So in other words, an anti-social gangsta from the ghetto who looks after his peeps and is fairly likely to bust a cap in your ass for complaining about his nightclub-class radio playing 12 hours a day is someone you're just as happy living with as someone who has been training from day 1 to be quiet, thoughtful, and kind? Does that make any kind of sense?

No..... and it's the culture at fault. It's time to take culture off the holy dais where it sits, untouchable. Let's get religion down while we're at it and kick both balls around. We're not going good places otherwise.

-p

Re:But...

[sumdumass]

What are you uggesting? We should look at monority's more to salve all our violent crime? Or should we let the majority of the minority convicted offenders go to improve the ratio A bit?

The facts are that the types of crimes blacks tend to commit that lend themselves t the death penalty by far out number the same for whites. This isn't neccesarily racist either. Living conditions tend to dictate the types of crimes people are invovled in. Poor people commit different styles of robery then rich people do and so on. This isn't to say that the say crime and way it was commited cannot be the same, it just isn't always. Now, If i was to ask you who was more likley to kill someone durring a robbery? How about a car jacking? How many prominent blacks walking through a poor area get mugged because it is thought they have money? Now whites? You watch cops on TV, who is the most likley types of person to run? How about shoot back at the cops of do something that might get an officer killed?

Education, living conditions, social pressures, money and numerous other things that could be bad choices cause the type of crimes and how it was commited to be different. These differences can often be the difference in life or the death penalty. There is nothing racist about it. Even the fact that a better defence sometimes results in less severe punishments aren't racist.

What is racists is, looking at the numbers and claiming something that isn't there. The solution isn't letting letting a bunch of minorities go because they commited a certain crime a certain way. And it isn't convicting the oposite race of more crimes when they didn't commit them or commit them in the ways the laws says is most deserving of the seath penalty.