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Vonage Loses VoIP Case With Verizon
cdrudge writes "A federal jury on Thursday said Vonage Holdings Corp. violated 3 of 5 patents of Verizon Communications Inc. and ordered the upstart Internet-phone company to pay $58m in damages as well as 5.5% in royalty fees per month per customer. Verizon said it would seek an injunction to block Vonage from using its patented technology. The jury did reject Verizon's claim of $200m in damages and that Vonage deliberately violated Verizon's patents. As you might expect, Vonage said it would appeal the decision and seek a stay if an injunction is granted. Judge Claude Hilton set a hearing for March 23 on whether to grant an injunction."
Guess I'll hold off on switching to Vonage for a little bit longer...
Another win for the little guy! It's always nice when the system works.
Create debt. Maintain debt. Keep people in debt. Work them until they die of debt.
How does this judgement affect the greater system?
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing," said John Thorne, Verizon deputy general counsel, in a statement. Yeah, for whatever company holds the patents. Using this same logic, wouldn't it help everyone a whole lot more if whatever technologies that are patented were allowed to be used by anyone? I hate patents.
Buckethead
I'm hopeing a company(Vonage) dropped alot of cash in political coffers. Not that I'm a care about that particular company, but this might be big enough to be the catalyst for serious patent reform that we so need.
We are all just people.
I have searched around and can't find the patent numbers that Verizon is claiming Vonage is violating. Anyone have a link to them or their numbers?
What a sickening outcome - even more sickening is it is just another in an endless farcical parade of patent lawsuits that show no sign of stopping.
"Vonage was told to pay 5.5% in royalties each month for each customer."
Wow, 5.5% for each customer you say? With 2.2 million customers that works out to 12100000% per month! Seems a little harsh if you ask me!
How can vonage claim patents on connecting things to the phone network ? Of course the TFA might be oversimplifying a bit.
I don't often see these things as groups of rich guys trying to screw each other over. Usually these things are a sign of rich guys meeting on the golf course and saying,"You know, if we make it look like we're at each other's throats, then we could slowly and carefully raise the monthly rates on the millions of investing idiots who take the news at face value every morning."
Which group of rich guys did this benefit? Even rich guys stratify. Usually the stratification of rich guys gives insight into upcoming political posturing. Which politicians now find themselves in the group of rich guys with more money as a result of this ruling? Is this ruling balanced by any other recent rulings which might have moved money in a different direction?
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
I read a few articles on that news this afternoon but they are mainly aimed at the financial aspect of the story. I'm still trying to find what exactly are those patents and what are the larger (if any) implications for VOIP in general. Open Source Software like Asterisk could eventually suffer if Verizon begins a patent war and Vonage was only this first victim.
Traditional carrier are having a hard time adjusting to new technology and they will try anything to keep their old ways to stay relevant. During the last few years this happened in many 'traditional' sectors, music and movies being two of them. In the long run, they will adjust or die but for now all of those dinosaurs are desperate to keep their heads above the water. The crippled patent system is their flotation device...
This quote is from CNN's article on the subject coming from a Verizon lawyer:
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing. Verizon's innovations are central to its strategy of building the best communications networks in the world,"
Enough said!
"Patents encourage and protect innovations that benefit consumers, create jobs, and keep the economy growing," said John Thorne, Verizon deputy general counsel, in a statement. "Verizon's innovations are central to its strategy of building the best communications networks in the world."
.. um ... keep the economy going and create jobs? Why not just do the sensible thing [sadly in this case] and either buy out Vonage, or license the patents to them.
So they want to put Vonage out of business to
Though, the idea of "phone calls over the net" isn't exactly non-obvious or new. It would have been nice if the article could cite the patents they are violating....
Oh well..
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Ideal:
Person A has a brilliant, rare idea. Person A invests years in refining and expanding said idea. Person A goes out and patents said idea. Person A opens a business with said idea, reaping customer praise and financial reward.
The patent has encouraged creativity and expanded the market.
Reality:
Person A has a somewhat obvious idea. Companys B, C, D, and E without investing in refining or developing the idea run out and patent said idea. Patent is granted to Company B (and sometimes C,D,and E too). Company B sits on patent, preventing anyone else from opening said business in order to protect the large profit margins on their current offering. 15 years later Company B sells the rights to said patent to Clearinghouse F. Clearinghouse F takes the broadest possible view of said patent, and sues everyone in the business. Years of fun in courthouse G ensues.
The patent has prevented the use of the idea or object patented, and has been used to bleed money from companies who do produce things.
The ______ Agenda
How is Vonage supposed to have any revenues if an injunction is imposed? I suppose they could write some new code that doesn't infringe on the patent, but how would Verizon have any claim to the revenues?
they have the worst customer support (Bob aka Habib in India),
Ah - you've never been a verizon customer then.
Constant overbilling, random shut offs of additional services, fees to reinstate the randomly shut off aditional services, $3000 cell phone bills because they accidentally deleted your voice plan from your cellphone account, $2000 data bills because they accidentally deleted the data plan from your blackberry.
I don't get it..
i havent seen any stories about any cases of good old fashioned "jury nullification" since the civil rights era when it was used to protect racist groups and institutions...
i don't get it.. it's ok to use jury nullification to beat up on african americans but its not to tell a near monopoly "no, we won't allow you to destroy one of your very few competitors"?
I think we need to start a new biggotry movement that somehow involves monopolistic patent trolls.. then we'll see some action.
VLC FOR MAC IS DYING! IF YOU DEVELOP, PLEASE SAVE IT!!
>> I cannot even conceive of using 500 minutes in a single month.
Hmm, so you don't have teenage daughters, then?
(Sorry, this is Slashdot. Slashdotter's are not supposed to have girlfriends or wives, therefore children [at least living with them] are relatively unlikly. Silly me)
"Cats like plain crisps"
The article claims that Vonage was in violation of "3 out of 5" patents owned by Verizon, but does not list any information about the actual patents except to claim that they dealt with call waiting and voicemail. I did a little research and was unable to find any reference to these patent numbers. Does anyone have any more information on the patents or their actual numbers or the court filings?
Why is Vonage taking the flame for VOIP? Isn't there other buisnesses out there that allow people to use the public phone lines for comunication from computer to phone. I use skype which does not have a monthly payment(12 months for $24 for an phone number and voicemail)and 2 cents a minute for calls made in the US. Also, I do enjoy the video phone functionality of it.
Maybe some of these?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
I have been a Verizon customer for years.
I have only had 2 problems with them.
The first one, they came out spent 4 hours going over my IN HOUSE wiring and helped solve an issue...NO CHARGE.
The second one involved an email issue, which was solved in under an hour.
Plus, while I was under a contract for my DSL, the change my price from 29.95 to 14.95. No change in service. That was over a year ago and it's still 14.95
I have never had a problem with my Verizon cell service.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Agreed, I have been VERY satisfied with my vonage. I've had it for 2.5 years. I moved out of the US to a small caribbean island last year. I brought my Vonage modem with me when I moved. It works perfect from here. I have two vonage lines running over my business cable line. I kept the same numbers I had when I lived in the US. So my US family members and in-laws and Customers can make a local call and get me 3000 miles away. Vonage == money well spent.
"I cannot even conceive of using 500 minutes in a single month."
You obviously don't have a wife and a teenage daughter.
This is essentially the end of VoIP if this decision holds. Basically, Verizon claims patents on connecting a VoIP line to a PSTN line and on common billing methods for phone service. Verizon was the first one they went after because they are the most high profile. Expect them to leverage this victory to take on anyone else offer VoIP to PSTN service.
With this decision, Verizon has just derailed the horde of VoIP startup/conversion trains rolling down the tracks into the future. I picture a caped, curly-mustached Verizon villain with a box and plunger detonating a high bridge made of glass fiber.
--
make install -not war
Look at these patents:
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6137869.PN.&OS=PN/6137869&RS= PN/6137869
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6104711.PN.&OS=PN/6104711&RS= PN/6104711
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6282574.PN.&OS=PN/6282574&RS= PN/6282574
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6298062.PN.&OS=PN/6298062&RS= PN/6298062
t ahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm&Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&r= 1&l=50&f=G&d=PALL&s1=6359880.PN.&OS=PN/6359880&RS= PN/6359880
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
So basically any VOIP system utilizing a database to authenticate callers and bill them for usage is infringement. Amazing.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
VOIP DNS.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
Same.
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
Voice mail / call waiting / call forwarding I assume. Now this is proprietary because it's been ported to VOIP systems?
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?u=%2Fne
This looks more applicable to wireless networks; I wonder how it applied in this case.
Top of the page. It's a small PDF, and the patents are near the back. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to find and read (and understand) the patents yourself.
This is bullshit.
I say we should boycott Verizon and refuse to pay any outstanding verizon bills till they back off.
Surely Verizon wasn't the first company to do VoIP. They've patented hooking voip upto a PSTN. Which is the only way that VoIP can work in a mostly PSTN phone system.
Is Cisco's PSTN gateway next? Are they going to sue AT&T/SBC, SuddenLink, RoadRunner, Northland, COX, or the countless others doing the *exact* same thing?
Can someone please slap these trolls with prior art to nullify the patent and take the ammo out of these bastards patent gun. Can you hear me now? Good.
I call shenanigans, get your brooms.
Run a dial-up modem over it.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
I was a Verizon Wireless Customer for 5 years, and my phone bill was never the same month to month. Though they always had an excuse for it when I called. Most of the time it was not going over on minutes. Features I didn't remember getting added to the account, etc etc. That and you can't change your features without signing a new contract. It's a trap from hell, I'm glad to be out of it.
I switched to an inferior local service (cricket) just because they charge me the SAME amount every month. And that to me is more important than nationwide coverage.
The patents in question seem to have claim to have invented VOIP in 1999. However, the free world dialup project has been around since 1995. Also, back in 1998-1999 I remember Microsoft was offering free PC-Phone calls to the US using MSN Messenger. Their partner was charging for the same service. I think that would certainly qualify as prior art.
You also don't beat up ones that the jury (if there is one, I didn't RTFA) are most likely to be using personally or see as "The Good Guys". ie. Don't beat up on Skype. There are a lot of people who use Skype personally and a jury of those people would likely feel that they'd personally lose out if Skype got damaged. Rather beat up on someone else.
Then there's also the concern with legal fees etc. If you take them all on at the same time, you invest a lot in legal expenses. You're exposing a lot of cash. Rather expose a smaller amount of cash at a time.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
You are a poor uninformed soul just like those who think "Google isn't paying for anything". Of course they pay. The pay for the internet access to transfer their data, your VoIP data has to be carried to some system of theirs and then converted to a standard POTS signal (of course they somehow have to have a way of doing all that and I'm sure Verizon isn't going "HEY... We can give you local numbers for free!".
Everyone pays for everything, there is no free. When will you people quit saying that "it's free"?!
Isn't she right upstairs?
I've actually never been taught anything thing about patent law or patents in school. So yes, schools are teaching something.
As for the article you linked to, I believe there's a big difference with some guy coming up with a novel idea and patenting it and making his bucks. Where it gets crappy is when companies start to patent broad or obvious ideas rather than a very specific thing like intermittent windshield wipers. Then things like this with Verizon and Vonage arise where Verizon now has Vonage by the nuts. This seems totally counterproductive. Jobs will probably be lost and Verizon will tighten its grip on the market which isn't good for customers.
Then again, what do I know?
Buckethead
I'm a Verizon customer and have noticed none of that (been with them for 23 months now). Best service coverage in my rural area (though Nextel is on par), and when I had trouble with my phone mic not picking up, I took it into one of their local stores and an onsite technician had the little bugger ripped apart, fixed, and reassembled in less than 5 minutes. Even though the phone was under warranty they didn't check it or ask me for any info. Just fixed it and handed it back.
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
Vonage's businss model depends on Verizon, SBC and the other existing phone companies. It depends on utilization of their facilities without paying anything for the use.
I'm sure Vonage has bandwidth bills to pay. Every VOIP installation is sitting on some ISPs line (like Verizion, SBC and other existing phone companies) which said ISP is getting paid money for.
This is not very far from the net net neutrality debate. I pay Verizon cash money for a rated connection to the internet. Should they be allowed to tell me what kind of packets i can put on the line?
Vonage's businss model depends on Verizon, SBC and the other existing phone companies. It depends on utilization of their facilities without paying anything for the use.
I call bullshit.
Vonage doesn't pay for the line, the customer of both Vonage and the ISP pays for the line. If the ISP isn't getting what they think they should get for the traffic, they should jack the rate to their actual customer... the person with the DSL or Cable connection.
The user pays the ISP to get to Vonage, not the other way around.
The whores get mad when the sluts give it away for free.
Heh. I wish. Unfortunately, your parents pay for internet access. It's not free...
:P Trust me on this, it sucks to get old.
Internet access, water, electricity, TV, newspaper and even garbage. You wouldn't believe all the kinds of things adults have to pay for.
What's that sound?
Vonage's business model evaporating.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.