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More Videogames, Fewer Books at Some Schools?

A News.com article highlights a plan that may please word-weary students: more games, fewer books in some educational settings. That's one plan put forth by some educators who feel that current learning plans don't fully engage today's classes. By offering real-world dilemmas in a virtual setting ('discover why fish are dying in a park'), teachers hope that games will turn kids onto the idea of learning, and eventually lead them back to books. The article covers several of the projects geared towards exploring this idea, as well as research on the subject. "A game designer, Salen is working with a group called New Visions for Public Schools to establish a school in New York City for grades 6 through 12 that would integrate video games into the entire curriculum. 'There's a lot of moral panic about addiction to games. There's a negative public perception, and we know we have to deal with that. But teachers have been using games for years and years.'"

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  1. My take on this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a brilliant idea. Obviously there are many things to be concerned about... it's not necessarily a good thing to just get games so that the kids will be entertained, but to get them to learn something, to develop thinking skills, and to keep them interested in the subject being taught.

    Obviously when talking about games, and school, many of us think of calculator games. For the most part, the use of graphing calculators to play games has just been a way for students to not be bored during class, or for the lonely students to not be bored between class. There are also many calculator games that serve educational purposes in some ways, and they can easily be implemented in the classroom, since the a lot, if not the majority of high school students already own a graphing calculator.

    The purpose of going to school isn't necessarily to learn, but also to learn how to learn. And there are many puzzle games that help that cause - they develop the brain in ways that traditional school just can't do. Reading helps the memory, but playing puzzle games help the way the brain actually approaches certain problems and situations.

    There is a certain level of interest that is absolutely necessary in order for a student to learn. The difference between the gifted students and the not so gifted students is generally their interest level.

    Generally what I saw when I was in high school was that the teachers always fought against the use of graphing calculators (especially playing games on them), but if I ever become a teacher (which I probably won't, and this might be the reason for that), I will utilize the technology available to the greatest extent, and gaming will likely be a part of that.

    And... a poll:
    Do you think your education would have been better had the teachers utilized games in order to help the students understand?

    Yes,
    Maybe.
    They DID! and that's why I turned out so great!
    They DID! and that's why I turned out... the way I am...
    No.

    1. Re:My take on this... by ClaraBow · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with many of your assertions, but as an educator, I see too many students in middle school and high school who lack basic reading and writing skills. It is extremely important for students to have a strong foundation in cultural literacy and in the "basic skills" or it becomes extremely difficult for students to succeed. It takes hard work to become proficient in reading, writing, and arithmetic. It seems to me that too many young people today want everything to be fun and easy.

    2. Re:My take on this... by LBArrettAnderson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I agree. I would say that this would be a "subject to subject" thing. In English and language classes, the students should be reading and writing. In math and science classes, I think the "gaming" principal would apply better. Perhaps that would make them hate their language classes even more, but their problem solving skills would imrpove greatly. I don't know if there would be a way to incorporate the "gaming" into math and science and still allow the students to have an interest in reading and writing for their english class.

      I agree that reading and writing is much more important than math and science in the real world... unless you are going to work alone. Communication is vital to being successful, and if people think you're stupid because you can't spell, you're screwed (please don't point out any spelling errors in my post; it would be funny, but I know I'm not perfect... I'm working on that as well).

    3. Re:My take on this... by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree that reading and writing is much more important than math and science in the real world...

      Your employer does too. That way he can pay you for 30 hours when you work 40, and you'll never know the difference. And let's not EVEN get into telephone bills.

  2. is this bad? by User+956 · · Score: 5, Funny

    A New.com article highlights a plan that may please word-weary students: more games, fewer books in some educational settings.

    Look, I learned everything I need to know about the Great Western Expansion by playing Oregon trail. Such as, it is very easy to die of dysentery.

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:is this bad? by the_humeister · · Score: 4, Funny

      Look, I learned everything I need to know about the Great Western Expansion by playing Oregon trail. Such as, it is very easy to die of dysentery.


      The part that irks me is that no textbook I've seen ever mentions that farmers who made the trip successfully were awarded triple bonus points at the end.
    2. Re:is this bad? by PhrankW · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As she was being home-schooled, my daughter also first learned about the Western Expansion by playing Oregon Trail. She also learned that you do much better in the game if you always get as much information as you can from those who have gone before.
      Actually, I suspect the best use for videogames in education is as bribes. Once a student shows he has learned the material
      taught in a class, he doesn't have to sit still watching other students fail to learn, but can have a little fun while playing games, reading a book, shooting baskets etc. Never happen, but an interesting concept

    3. Re:is this bad? by thinsoldier · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually during the summer between 4th and 5th grade I met a family who every other year made their kids attend summer school so that when regular school started they would be well ahead of everyone else. The benefit the kids saw in this was the freedom to stay home from school sometimes 3 days a week if they felt like it. And even though the missed days had an adverse effect on their report cards due to school rules regarding perfect attendance, they were still the top students in their school up until the 6th grade. So really they worked longer and harder so they could take whole days off to stay at home and play.

      From the article: "games will turn kids onto the idea of learning, and eventually lead them back to books."

      I normally laugh at these silly suggestions to replace books with software and games but that line there made me realize something. My little brother is far from a good student, but the amount of time and effort and research and reading and not taking he puts into learning the latest video games is at least 5 times more work than he ever puts into book reports, essays, or coursework. Even I actually spent every free moment I could for 5 months mastering Killer Instinct back in the day. I've had jobs doing pc repair, graphic design, web design, and programming and I must honestly say that I would know NOTHING about computers or the jobs I've had that relied on computers if it weren't for:
      Doom, Quake 1, Duke Nukem, Redneck Rampage, zsnes, mame, mugen, starcraft, sim city, quake 3, half life, descent, unreal, ut99, and others, and the countless mods and scripts and skins other extras related to many of them. PC Games taught me how to tinker, how to learn via trial and error, how to research, the basics of how to code, the power of simple text files, how to fix and upgrade a machine just to play a game, art and design, what makes a user interface useful, how to type, and probably lots of other stuff

  3. Discover why fish are dying in a park? by Timesprout · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thats easy, its cos I keep rail gunning them.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
  4. A good way to teach programming.. by SpaghettiCoder · · Score: 5, Interesting

    .. by introducing principles in games like ZZT, for instance. ZZT came with ZZT-OOP (ZZT Object Oriented Programming Language) so that you could create your own rooms with puzzles involving monsters that interact with the player and other monsters (or other objects). Each monster could be programmed with its own set of instructions (where it's told to start or react to specific events). ZZT is a great teaching and learning tool. I have 2 decades of programming experience (starting with BASIC on an 8-bit Amstrad), and the stuff I did as a child left the deepest impression (although it was, unfortunately, the BASIC language). So teach them when they're young.

    1. Re:A good way to teach programming.. by Bemopolis · · Score: 4, Funny

      I also learned a lot from ZZT-OOP — women have legs and know how to use them, and they're crazy 'bout a sharp-dressed man.

      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
  5. I object. by sakusha · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I strenuously object to the hasty, ill-concieved rush to computerize education by turning everything into a video game. Pretty soon, everyone will think science only takes place inside a computer. Let me give an example.

    One of my favorite childhood memories was going to the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Up on the second floor, there was a permanent display of historic scientific apparatus, like a Wimshust Generator about 20 feet in diameter. I went back to visit it about 10 years ago, all those exhibits were gone, replaced with computer kiosks. Really BAD computer kiosks, uninspiring, ill-planned junk that had all the bells and whistles, but little educational content. I thought about the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on developing and deploying those horrid, amateurish kiosks, and how they replaced a whole museum wing that represented the technological development of America, and I can only consider it the greatest educational tragedy I ever saw. I remember being inspired, as a little child, seeing those monuments to science, but that will never happen again. And it's a damn shame.

    1. Re:I object. by aztektum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe kids would engage more if parents weren't so focused on satisfying every little whim and fancy of their kids anymore. Turn of MTV, limit their playtime on the Xbox and make them go do some real world shit, like play outside, or hell even board games require more attention span.

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    2. Re:I object. by Jack+Action · · Score: 2

      I had the same experience when I went back to visit the Royal Tyrrell Musem in Drumheller, Alberta -- perhaps the premiere dinosaur museum in North America, if not the world -- and was shocked to see how it had changed in the fifteen years since I'd been there.

      I had the same experience as the parent -- the well-made dioramas and informative visual displays and had been replaced by literal flashing lights, kiosks, ominous music and so forth. I actually did learn something, but that was from an old exhibit that was in a wing slated for renovation and covered in dust (and one I remembered from my last visit) -- it probably isn't there now.

      But I think the clock will eventually start swinging back. Why go to a museum to look at a computer/video? Just watch it over broadband. If the museums want to keep their doors open and attract patrons, they'll have to resurrect their old mandate (if any of the old currators are left alive).

  6. Fewer books? by Etherwalk · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "Fewer books" is not the right answer. Educational videogames can be a lot of fun--I'm reminded of Rocky's Boots (digital logic for kids) or Fraction Action (Okay, so graphics have improved over the years)--but "Fewer books" is almost always the wrong answer. There are so many incredible books out there--books that are written with beautiful language, books that can be enjoyed and explored.

    (On a tangent, schools which assign BAD books to be read are pretty criminal--there's so much good stuff out there the last thing you need to do is assign a book that's going to turn someone off of reading before they've graduated grade school.)

    I applaud the use of video games for education--and I have no problem with having video games to play, for children or adults. But how much would we gain by simply having a month each semester, or each year, when all the children at a school were told "No television and no video games." With more books assigned in that period--even if it's a question of asking each student to pick five or ten books out of a hundred choices. Television and video games are more immediately engaging, and maybe you need to starve someone of them for a little while to make them be more willing to try a book. If there's nothing else to do, even the most avid watcher of cartoons might eventually pick up a book and read for a while.

  7. Re:Saturday Night Live Syndrome by Etherwalk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    National Endowment for the Arts Report: Reading At Risk

    That's the first study that came to mind. Granted, it's not necessarily reflective of the quality of someone's education that they choose to spend their time doing something other than reading--but when reading as a whole declines, there's a whole wonderful part of culture that becomes diminished, in a way, by the shrinking community. Not to mention that the potential readers lose out. Other mediums have good stories too, and ones well worth listening to, and things to learn and to enjoy--but reading is at least as important, and in many ways more so in that it stimulates the imagination.

    Also, ask a teacher from inner-city schools thirty years ago for their horror stories... and then ask one from inner-city school teachers today.

  8. Why are we doing this? by SavedLinuXgeeK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This seems like a never ending cycle of catering to attention deficient children. Western culture is so much more media driven, than ever before, that attention spans are dwindling. There is a reason we didn't need jazz up science 100 years ago to get people interested. That is because science is interesting. If we start catering to an inability of focusing and building desires by yourself, we are more hurting the children then helping. They will get to a point where they expect everyone and everything to cater to them, especially if they show a lack of interest about something. It just seems like a bad idea. It almost seems like dropping computers altogether, and getting back to basics in a way that forces them to focus would be of utmost benefit. The only downside is the lack of information sharing that the internet brings, simulation capabilities that computers offer, and disability services that computers give.

    --
    je suis parce que j'aime
    1. Re:Why are we doing this? by thrawn_aj · · Score: 2, Interesting
      +1. Parent has the right insight into this. At what point in this charade are we going to expect the students to show some initiative for their own education? This disease is spreading right upto high school and even unto college now. If it takes such extreme measures to get students interested in their own education, perhaps we should rethink our goals here. Have a merit based education system (golly gee what a novel concept :P) and impress upon the students the reality of the outside world. Given a choice between "burger-flipping" and "professional career", I'm sure even the most ludicrous inhabitant of the "entitled generation" would get motivated =D. An education is simply an environment wherefrom the proactive student can extract the skills one needs to fulfil his/her goals in life.

      The following is addressed to the disaffected student:

      <rant>
      Have trouble getting motivated in class? Feel the teacher is not doing his job? You have a brain, use it. Go to the library, hop on the internet (or into the tubes :P) and learn FFS. Demonstrations and compaints and whining are all GOOD things and they will make society a better place (no sarcasm there). However, none of those things will help YOU learn at this moment. So, you don't like the way a teacher teaches or feel he's incompetent? (This is quite possible and entirely plausible.) Do what we used to do - OWN the subject and then attempt to display that teacher's ignorance in open class, keep him on his toes. Ask the difficult questions, point out logical flaws. After all, that is the ultimate purpose of a course - to attempt go beyond what your teacher knows. If a subect fails to motivate you, there's always pleasure to be gained in treating it like a sport and showing your coach the time of his life *evil grin*. Heck, it works for sports, and no sport even has a meaningful goal to begin with :P. Academics could be a sport in itself, at least there's some things you can walk away with at the end. Does this make you a nerd? Possibly. Should you care? That's upto how much importance you attach to peer pressure. I think if you have the right attitude towards learning (for instance: I'm gonna learn this stuff with or without the teacher's help), no one can stop you from understanding ANYTHING. So, seriously, let's stop with the "decelerated pace learning". Video games! Humbug!

      </rant>
    2. Re:Why are we doing this? by blacklint · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Science sure is interesting when shown to be. And, in case you wanted to know, i'm a current high school student (at a Catholic school).
      -------
      In my middle school, a retired teacher came back to teach an extra science course before regular classes started. He taught us all kinds of things, all hands on. We soldered together electronic kits, dissected animals (including a shark one of his friends caught... who needs preservatives), fermented wine from raisins, distilled it into alcohol, then burned it, made a barometer by pouring mercury into tubing, showed that there is a limit to how high you can lift water through suction by running a really long straw to the roof and having us try, exploding hydrogen balloons, and more...

      Much of this wasn't exactly "safe", but that's what made it exciting. We all missed a bit of sleep in the morning, but loved it. Mr Zucca, you will always have a place in my heart.
      -------
      In either 7th or 8th grade (or both, I can't remember if one was outside of class time or not), one entire trimester of science was dedicated to doing a science fair project. Both of mine were on coilguns. Although I got a lot (and I do mean a lot) of assistance from my father that most kids wouldn't get, I can say that I learned a lot about electricity and magnetism. Winning 1st at county and 3ed at the regional science fairs wasn't bad either.
      -------
      Skip forward a few grades to my current junior year, in which my school entered the FIRST Robotics Competition for the first time. In this competition I learned way more about the disciplines involved in building a robot than I could have otherwise. Mechanical engineering, electrical engineering, building a drivetrain, pneumatics, sensors, control systems, just everything. Teamwork, planning, meeting deadlines, working with your allies, strategising, and emergency last minute repairs are all part of this competition. And as the team's programmer, I got my introduction to writing code for embedded systems, a field I may end up pursuing.

      We all had a blast designing and building our robot during the six weeks from the kickoff to the ship date. Not much else would keep us at school until eight or nine at night while learning the whole time. Seeing this thread has made me realize what FIRST is really about; Dean Kamen's (the founder's) speeches now make sense. It's about getting us interested in science and technology, and that's exactly what it does. If you happen to be in a position where you could support this organization, whether you work in a high school (or even middle school... look into the FIRST Lego or VEX challenges), a company that can provide parts or sponsor a team with the support of engineers, or hold a public office, I would strongly advise you to look into this great organization.

      And in case you are wondering, I'm on the FIRST Robotics Competition team 2144 from Sacred Heart in Atherton, CA. Our RadBot ended up being the highest seeded robot built by a rookie team in the Silicion Valley Regional, coming in at 11th out of 48 attending teams. We even got to be one of the 8 teams to pick our alliance members going into the finals. Victory in our first quarter final against the number one seeded alliance, when Woodside (team 100) fell over, was one of the greatest rushes in our lives. They came back strong and won the next two matches (moving on to the semifinals), but this competition was easily the most exciting thing I've ever done.
      -------
      So back on topic, student involvement is the only way to way to keep kids interested in subjects. Simply having books just doesn't cut it. And as much as I loved the Oregon Trail in elementary school, more games isn't the way to go. Hands on activities and larger projects are. In some subjects (sciences especially), this is relatively easy. In others (such as history or math) it's harder, but still doable. Small things like trying to make a hypercube out of pasta and marshmallows can make all the difference.

  9. Language skills are still key by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reading and writing are *so* passe, but if you look at Information Age jobs, these skills are absolutely critical. Beyond jobs, literate citizens are key to a functional democracy. The diminishing of information literacy in America proceeds apace, and our cultural and political life suffers as a result. We expect less and less of ourselves, and we pass that on to the next generation.

    Games are great. I grew up playing them, and I still play them. But games aren't a replacement for the tried and true combination of reading, writing, and hard work. Wrapping learning in a sugary coating may make it taste better, but that won't make it nutritional.

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
    1. Re:Language skills are still key by value_added · · Score: 2, Funny

      Reading and writing are *so* passe, but if you look at Information Age jobs, these skills are absolutely critical. Beyond jobs, literate citizens are key to a functional democracy. The diminishing of information literacy in America proceeds apace, and our cultural and political life suffers as a result. We expect less and less of ourselves, and we pass that on to the next generation.

      Literate citizens? You're trying too hard. What's wrong with the current system where everyone depends on their television to provide them with everything they need to know?

      Televison is part of our culture, like apple pie. Everyone owns a TV, but not everyone has time to read. Ever hear of the phrase "a picture is worth a thousand words"? Anyone campaigning for elected office, for example, already know they need to raise millions to fund campaign commercials and they're already in the habit of doing so. Not taking advantage of big business (who are always ready and willing to contribute ever-increasing amounts) seems contradictory to our free market economy. If you have lots of money to contribute, why shouldn't you get a bigger say?

      I don't about you, but I work hard for a living. I can come home and turn on Fox News and get the important issues of the day summarised for me. That's what the information age is all about.

  10. Models. by headkase · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Calling a virtual-model a game only serves to denigrate the whole concept. :p Really, interacting with a model sounds a lot less cool than "playing a game" but it is a much more accurate description. Controlling a simulation in this sense sounds, if done properly, like it could be a very engaging form of learning versus rote memorization of books. Complimenting traditional studies this might actually be able to accomplish it's goal: engaging developing-minds in ways linear text doesn't.

    --
    Shh.
  11. Mod as Funny, not Insightful... by Pollux · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It may sound humorous, but the parent makes an important point that these educators don't seem to understand. Kids see games as entertainment, and they will only engage themselves insofar as they remain entertained. In Oregon Trail, there was always that option to "Talk With People," where you would learn historical facts and viewpoints, but that only slowed me down from getting to Oregon. The point I'm sure the parent post was trying to make was that kids only absorb information in a game when it's directly a part of gameplay, and even then, they're only snippets of information. (To be absolutely honest, I still don't know exactly what dysentery is, even though I can attribute probably 500 character deaths to it over my lifetime of playing Oregon Trail.)

    I think many educators do not understand that engagement in a game does not mean a child will be learning anything from it. Here's the difference:
    • When a child is engaged in learning, learning is the goal they set upon themselves, and they seek information to further their understanding of what they are studying. Since learning is the goal, information they find on their research brings them further to their goal.
    • When a child is engaged in a game, winning the game is the goal they set upon themselves, and they seek information to further their understanding of what they are playing. Since winning is the goal, information they find during their gameplay brings them further to their goal.

    The information you gain when playing a game is very fragmented, because you only absorb enough that you need to get you closer to winning. As the parent poster noted, you don't know what dysentery is, you only know that it's bad and it kills your characters.

    Teach these kids how to learn, not how to play a game. (Perfect example: MadTV Hooked on Phonics Parody)
    1. Re:Mod as Funny, not Insightful... by Traa · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...To be absolutely honest, I still don't know exactly what dysentery is...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysentery

      You feel any better now that you know what you made 500 virtual people go through? ;-)

  12. I object for a different reason. by khasim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Games are written. Just as books are written. And the writer has his/her own biases.

    If you read a book, you can read two books. You can read a dozen books. You can find the biases.

    If you play one "educational" video game, you've pretty much played them all. There aren't very many. So you'll be stuck with whatever bias the person who wrote it had.

    That's not education. That's programming.

  13. graphing calculators by AdonaiElohim · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's slightly off-topic, but my question is: Why are all students expected to buy graphing calculators starting in like 7th grade? I'm a teacher at a school where it's MANDATORY for all middle school students to purchase a graphing calculator. The most complex thing these students do with these arcane hunks of plastic is play some sort of tetris game and painstakingly spell out obscene messages to each other. It's been going on for like 15-20 years now and I don't get it. Maybe twice a year someone does the extra credit problems and graphs a couple of parabolas. They're utterly useless for almost everything that school students do. I did quite well on the AP Calc test without ever touching one. Why should every parent toss $100 in the toilet (or send it to Texas, which is worse) on a baffling, never-used brick of never-touched buttons?

    Note: I'm not a technophobe. I'm fully in favor of every student having a laptop now or in the near future. But I've been really perplexed by the whole graphing calculator thing for years now. It just seems like a huge waste of money for a tool no one uses. Why not force all students to buy defibrillators and bone saws for health class while we're at it?

    1. Re:graphing calculators by JRaven · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why are grade-schoolers expected to buy calculators? Beats the bejesus out of me.

      I've taught undergraduate mathematics going on ten years now, and for the vast majority of the courses (including calc, vector calc, diff eq and linear algebra) my students aren't permitted calculators on either quizzes or exams.

      Calculators are a crutch. They teach students to shove numbers into a magic box and just accept whatever comes out. In a perfect world that wouldn't be the case, but until the students have a solid grasp of the material it's far too tempting for them to just memorize some calculator mojo in order to get by.

  14. Games have their place in education by Canordis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Games are a media, like books and film and images, and each media has its strengths. Books are good for teaching because (Besides touching on literacy skills), they can be read over again, at the reader's own pace; films are good for teaching because they compress information relatively densely, and are much better at giving a sense of scale or displaying events than a book (What's better? Telling people about the size of the universe, or showing them Powers of Ten?).

    Games are good for helping students understand complex systems by interacting with them. Being able to play with a historically accurate strategic wargame is more interesting, and provides a deeper insight, than just reading what happened during a war. Being able to watch small simulated lifeforms reproduce on a screen is a stunning display of natural selection. There are some subjects which are better explained through a particular media.

    --
    I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it.
  15. Fundamental issues with gaming in education.... by davecrusoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Ok, so a caveat: I was a researcher of educational gaming... but I quit the field when I realized how poorly gaming could translate into the kind of learning that kids need to succeed in the world. Some questions to consider:


    How do you transfer game learning to test contexts? After all, standardized tests matter to governments. If you teach in one context, it is very hard to utilize the skills in a different context. Moving from screen to paper is, for instance, tough.

    A game requires simplification. What happens to history when it's all burnt into a 15 minute game? While simulations can be helpful for testing dangerous or invisible things (such as genetic combinations, hazmat training or airplane simulation), they're generally poor at proving background.

    Some educational games are built on a research base. For instance, there is a math game that will build upon a learner's growing base of rote-memorized solutions (automaticity; measured in Sec. to answer) by scaffoling new and old together. These games are few and far between. MOST games are simply multiple choice, or weird adaptations of Doom-for-math-learning.

    End point:

    Does what we can teach through gaming actually matter in real life? What does, and what doesn't? Therefore: what should we continue to teach with books and discussion, and where can gaming be used positively?

    Anyhow, that's some general food for thought... without raising issues of gender bias, stereotype threat, etc etc.

    1. Re:Fundamental issues with gaming in education.... by Bat+Country · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Any problem which can be defined as a conflict which requires learning a skill or collection of facts can be made into a game. The question isn't how good can a game be at teaching, but how fun can a good teaching game be made?

      The Carmen Sandiego games for instance were exceptionally good at providing trivial geographic and historical knowledge, but poor at providing a comprehensive amount of information about any one problem. However, they encouraged initiative in problem solving, proper time management, attention to minute detail, and improved short term memory. These are things which many people are seriously lacking by the time they reach their senior year in High School.

      There are some subjects which will probably never translate well into a pure video game context, but other subjects (such as chemistry, biology, ecology, and miscellaneous cognitive skills) do in fact translate quite well into a video game environment.

      Is a child going to memorize his phosphates and salts because he has to in order to pass an exam? Or will he memorize them because they're important building blocks for more complicated chemicals which s/he can use for various uses in some cleverly designed sandbox-style game?

      Say what one will about the historicity of what children brought from Oregon Trail, but it was useful for learning resource management, thrift, rationing, and learning a bit of how ridiculously hard it was to cross the USA before motor vehicles and a good interstate freeway system.

      It's not useful to dismiss gaming as being worthless for education merely because some subjects don't translate well into a gaming-based lesson. Children have been participating in role playing games and board games as part of their school curriculum for decades, and learning social dynamics and leadership through playground games for centuries. Games are unquestionably useful for training - the only problem lies in identifying the proper way to implement learning games in order to maximize learning value without making the experience tedious.

      --
      The land shall stone them with the bread of his son.
    2. Re:Fundamental issues with gaming in education.... by Torvaun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What happens to history when it's all burnt into a 15 minute game?
      You make the game longer. Example: Where in Time is Carmen Sandiego. Fun. Educational. The biggest issue is that this is still trivia, not knowledge. 1969, Neil Armstrong lands on the moon. Nothing about why the Space Race happened. On the other hand, that trivia is exactly what you need for standardized tests. So, while the education may decrease, the test scores will probably do even better. I am against this move, and not just because I'm appalled at the levels of literacy I run into on a daily basis.
      --
      I see your informative link, and raise you a pithy comment.
    3. Re:Fundamental issues with gaming in education.... by cgenman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Caveat: I've always wanted to get into educational gaming, but never have.

      Fundamentally, gaming can teach one thing: the game. Number munchers was very good at teaching how to quickly solve math problems while avoiding ghosts. Sim City taught resource management in a constrained system, as well as the civic arrangements that the city bothered to model.

      In other words, gaming teaches you HOW to do something. And if how you do something requires knowing facts, ala Carmen San Diego, then those facts can be levereged in as a secondary learning effect. Or your implements that you use might require knowledge... what they do, why they're there, etc. But gaming is not about facts, largely. It's about optimizing for a viable solution when an optimal solution is not apparent. In other words, if you wanted to teach airflow to kids, you could show them diagrams and sheets and stuff, or you could have them build an airplane in software and see how far they all fly. In the former case, they might memorize the theory. In the latter, they'll gain an intuitive sense for the forces involved.

      It doesn't make sense to offload some things onto gaming. The raw facts of history, for example, is generally poorly taught by gaming. Just look at all of the world war 2 games out there, and how little the players understand the intricacies of that political and physical conflict. But by the same token one only has to look as far as Sim City players to see people beginning to come to grips with the intricacies of local politics. And no matter how many training videos you show someone, they're really not going to become good drivers unless you put them in front of a simulator.

      Really, the question should be "how applicable is this particular subject / piece of information to teaching this subject." If you wanted to teach how a nuclear power plant works, a videogame about a nuclear meltdown would be entirely appropriate. If you wanted to teach about immigration patterns in the US in the 1700's, videogaming would be less useful.

      Gaming is the ability to poke at something and have that change the outcome. Again, this is perfect for finding out how something works. This is not so useful for learning what happened. If that's your goal, just make / use a video.

      To those who say that the kids never remembered the extra historical facts from Oregon Trail: How much of the other junk you learned at that time do you remember?

  16. Reality Check Time by MBCook · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Kids learn better by engaging them. Kids are engaged by video games. Thus, kids will learn better from video games,

    I know I look forward to learning about Greek Mythology from God of War II.

    Seriously though. I'm all for engaging kids. The better job you do, the more likely they are to engage themselves and learn on their own. You know one thing that doesn't engage students? Spending all your time teaching to a standardized test. Why go outside and show kids plants, plant a little garden, let them learn from that. Instead, we can just show them a picture in a book and force them to memorize what geotropism.

    Let's not forget that as you dumb down the curriculum and spend more time going over and over the same stuff so that all the kids can memorize it for the test, the kids who are smart (and already got it) and even those who are just normal (and got it 6 times ago, unlike the kid in the back who eats paste) are getting bored and tuning out. You may get them back, or they may learn that "school is boring".

    I like the idea behind "No child left behind." I think holding teachers accountable, as radical as that may be, is a good thing. It's just too bad that everyone decided to implement it by teaching to the test all the time. I remember when I was in elementary and middle school. They would teach us stuff, we'd learn, things were good. There was usually at least something interesting. Until that time of year. Yes, time for the CAT (California Achievement Tests) or whatever other yearly test we used. For the month before the test they did nothing but teach to the test, which was boring to no end since it was always below the stuff we were currently learning.

    More hands on lessons. That's what schools need. Hands on stuff, experiments, field trips.

    How many people here think they would even remember what the Oregon Trail was if it wasn't for the game? How many people here remember all the historical stuff from the game, and how many just remember seeing how fast you could get your friends killed or trying to get a tombstone so you could write something on it.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    1. Re:Reality Check Time by mctk · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I'll agree to this "holding teachers accountable" business if I get to hold my school district accountable. You can "hold me accountable" if:
      • I get to charge the district for all my overtime. I'm contracted for 37.5 hours a week. I work an average of 52 hours a week. The longest break I get is 20 minutes, if I lock my door shut during lunch period. I get time-and-a-half for the three to hours I put in every Sunday.
      • I get to charge the district for all of my personal money I spend on supplies. This includes tissues, pens, pencils, notebooks, markers, batteries for calculators, cleaner, and pies (for pi day!)
      • My school gets a full time counselor.
      • I have an administrator who does more than stop by for 13 minutes, then leave a two page report, highlighting mostly, the lack of student work on my walls.
      • I have time to sit and talk with my colleagues about students, school issues, and curriculum planning. "Time" is defined as contiguous periods longer than 7 minutes in length.
      • The school district agrees that art is an integral part of the curriculum and begins bringing back art offerings to every school.
      Whew. Sorry. Rant. Yes, hold teachers accountable. Honestly, I don't mind. I'm proud of my work. However, teachers are not the problem. A good 85% of us are working to the threshold of exhaustion all year.

      We should think about the university system. Why don't we yell about holding professors accountable? Cause if they suck, you go to a different school. I think we need to look into bringing that model to public schools.
      --
      Paul Grosfield - the quicker picker upper.
  17. Re:Best idea ever by FiloEleven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Exactly. Many people think too narrowly about video games in school. There's little point in deathmatch Quake in the classroom, but something like Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney is almost ideal. Phoenix Wright requires a lot of reading and also makes the player exercise critical thinking, e.g. "what in this witness testimony contradicts the evidence I have?"

    We also shouldn't forget multiplayer games - we've been playing those in gym class for years! A fun game with a competetive aspect will be well-received for sure.

    As others have stated, I don't like the "less books" part of the bargain. Different things require different teaching methods, and I don't think games are appropriate tools for a whole lot of 'em. Games' strength as a teaching tool lies in logic application, and their weakness in teaching facts. If video games are to be used in school, serious thought needs to be put into finding out where they are appropriate and engaging.

  18. Yeah, because... by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 3, Funny

    > It seems to me that too many young people today want everything to be fun and easy. ... back when I was young, we wanted everything to be boring and difficult!

  19. lazy teachers, lazy parents, lazy kids by misanthrope101 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Kids want to be entertained, not taught. Parents want their kids to have good grades and they don't want to hear, ever, from a teacher that their kid isn't trying, is not keeping up, and so on--the "there are no bad students, only bad teachers" mantra. Teachers have to work with the kids every day, their employment can be affected by complaining parents, and ultimately they, like everyone else, are going to take the path of least resistance.

    We are gutting education to the extent that it won't be verifiable anymore. If you reduce education to a videogame, you can't very well test on it, and you won't have quantifiable data to point to to show that little Johnny is an idiot. They'll dazzle you with buzzwords about emotional intelligence and self-esteem while fighting standardized testing. I don't blame the teachers all that much--they are subject to the demands of parents, and parents have long brought their power as consumers and taxpayers to bear on the school systems. The parents don't want to fault their own little angels because to do so would call their own parenting into question. It isn't even about the kids.

    Frankly, we shouldn't even have computers in the classrooms until high school. It should be all books, chalkboards (cheaper than dry-erase boards/markers) and that's it. Kids need to read. For that matter, adults need to read. But will it change? I doubt it. Parents view teachers as their own contracted employees. Even when I was in high school back in the 80s it was changing--one of my best, most challenging teachers was fired becasue parents complained.

  20. About time already ! by unity100 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Now see, in 15th century printing press and the paper were the big thing - new technological stuff that made it possible for knowledge to be more easily transferred. This has resulted in the world we know today.

    Today, we have graphics, sound, internet, computer. These are the big thing now.

    We need to use them just as people used printing press back then - as the primary source of spreading information, and education.

    There is a forced inclination to think that 'people should read books'. We have to give that up. The book concept is being conferred much more importance than the value it provides as a medium. It can easily be said that the importance conferred comes more from traditional conditioning of 'books are good' (correct at any date pre-1997) than the actual value books carry in disseminating information and education today.

    Visual aids are ALWAYS better. This is why we had illustrations on any printed material during the course of history whenever it was possible. Today we have virtualization, games, sound, graphics, anything you can imagine to make the utopic futuristik education themes in sci-fi movies come true.

    And we should do as such, for faster, better and less stress-inducing teaching of children.

  21. More like if parents actually had time for the kid by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    More like if parents actually had time for the kid. Now I know that an anecdote isn't exactly data, but let me tell you how it worked for me.

    I learned to read and write long before I got to school, because my grandma took the time to teach me that, and to make it interesting. I can't remember much from that age (she started with it when I was 2-3 years old), but from what I'm told it involved pictures of animals whose name started with that letter, and stuff like that. Kids are pretty much pre-programmed to hang around and learn from a parent or, in this case, substitute parent, so playing some game with letters with grandma and getting lots of attention, hey, it must have been fun times.

    I already had basic understanding skills in English and French by the age of 7. No, I couldn't have written Les Miserables, but it was a start, you know? Grandma is again responsible for French, using some Pif comics as material. Kids like to be told stories, you know? _Illustrated_ stories with a cat and a dog doing mean things to each other? You tell me if that doesn't sound like fun. Plus, again, hey, I was getting lots of attention from grandma. Mom and her English language tapes are responsible for English, but again, some time doing it together was involved. (It worked too. I think I'm doing decently in English, wouldn't you say?)

    Incidentally, in school, I have grandma to thank for another piece of wisdom, which strangely enough the school didn't teach me. School told me to just keep reading something again and again until it's memorized. Except at some point you feel like your head is numb, and keeping at it any longer isn't getting you any further. It just gets you more frustrated. I can see how lots of kids just concluded that learning is boring, and gave up. Grandma gave me this little piece of advice: so take a 10 second break. Nowadays I know that that's just enough to flush the brain's shortest term buffer. Why couldn't school teach me that? She also helped check my homework and stuff.

    At some point, you know, a kid gets to ask stuff like "why is the sky blue?" My parents, bless their nerdy souls, gave me some physics books. You'd be surprised how I could accept the real explanation just as well as other kids accept the fairy tale versions. The whole family, all the way to the great grandma, also were always available to talk about it, which is always a plus. In retrospect, it might have been a tad boring to listen to a kid ranting and raving about a transformer, but someone or another always had time for that. I should be thankful.

    Dad also helped provide some maths knowledge needed there, such as teaching me to do a derivative, and how to get there by way of really small delta X... in elementary school. It helped with, for example, understanding mechanics early.

    Computers... ok, now for that one I didn't need any special encouragement. It was experimenting with something and seeing some results, which is fun. Still, in retrospect, it wasn't as much spontaneous interest in programming, as Dad showing me how some small BASIC programs are entered and run. I was pretty quick to get interested from there. At some point, basic was kinda slow, so Dad gave me the CPU instruction set manuals and a very quick introduction to Assembly. And to translating it all to hex by hand, because the old ZX-81 had 1k memory total, and an assembler just didn't fit in there. It would be another half a decade until I understood _why_ assembly is faster than BASIC, or how does the computer understand either of them, but it got me happily coding away anyway.

    By contrast, the things I was the _least_ interested in was the stuff that just came pretty much by royal decree, so to speak. (Not meaning actually from a king, but from any authority figure, parents included.)

    So exactly what are you going to solve by just turning off the TV? "Young man, go to your room and don't come out until you've done your homework." Damn, if that had been all the parent input and attention I got, I'd probably be w

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  22. Re:How will they ever learn to study?! by subsonic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I agree with your line of thinking. Part of the trouble in having literate students is not just that they are not able to simply read, but they don't even know where to begin to search for information on their own. OK, sure you can tell them that Google has everything, but then they don't know how to critically analyze the sources of their information. Part of literacy is being able to think critically about what it is you are reading/watching/listening to. This is a critical step that many teachers and schools are now being forced to gloss over, simply in order to teach dogmatic standardized-test-answers.

    It is one skill that you can teach kids that they will end up using regardless of anything else they do in life.