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Data Centers Breathe Easier With Less Oxygen

PC World is reporting that some companies are looking at a new method of fire protection in their server closets, oxygen-deprivation systems.""Wood stops burning when the oxygen content falls to 17 percent and plastic cables between 16 to 17 percent, said Frank Eickhorn, product manager for fire detection at Wagner Alarm and Security Systems GmbH in Hanover, Germany. Wagner makes electric compressors that use a special membrane to remove some of the oxygen from the outside air, a system the company calls OxyReduct. The excess oxygen is exhausted, and the remaining nitrogen-rich air is pumped inside the data center."

78 of 392 comments (clear)

  1. That's pretty hot by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...er, so to speak. But it can't hold a candle to the burning excitement of watching pasty-faced geeks burn out, run out of steam, and pass out in a low-oxygen environment.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  2. Does the BOFH know about this? by spun · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hehe, I can just picture Simon locking someone in one of these and slowly dialing down the oxygen until he gets that raise or perk or whatever he's after.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Does the BOFH know about this? by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Bastard Operator From Hell, Simon Travaglia. A system administrator turned humor columnist who writes stories about what all sysadmins wish we could get away with. You know, murdering our boss with the Halon system, getting end users to stick paperclips into power outlets, that kind of thing. Published semi-regularly at theregister.co.uk.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  3. Safe to work by stanmann · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, its safe to enter, but how long, 1 hour, 3 hours 6 hours 8 hours. The article doesn't mention.

    --
    Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
    1. Re:Safe to work by scheme · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, its safe to enter, but how long, 1 hour, 3 hours 6 hours 8 hours. The article doesn't mention.

      RTFA, the oxygen content in the air would be the same as living at around 2000-3000m which people certainly do without ill effects.

      --
      "When you sit with a nice girl for two hours, it seems like two minutes. When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it
    2. Re:Safe to work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Well, it does say that it's like being at an elevation of 6000 ft, which is a perfectly habitable environment indefinitely. Takes some adjustment, but basically harmless.

      But, that must be making some assumption about the actual elevation of the datacenter. If the datacenter really is at 6000 ft. (it would be close to that, for example, in Denver, CO), then what is the effect of the reduced O2 concentration? At what point do you have to pressurize your datacenter to make the reduced O2 concentration safe?

    3. Re:Safe to work by ad0gg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not only can it prevent fires but it also help systems administrators train for the olympics.

      --

      Have you ever been to a turkish prison?

    4. Re:Safe to work by nsayer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Remember Apollo I?

      There's a difference between pressure and partial pressure of oxygen. Reduced PP inhibits fire and FEELS TO HUMANS like being at altitude. Fire burns at altitude because the PP of o2 is the same. Humans feel like the PP is reduced because there's just fewer oxygen molecules (along with fewer of everything else).

      My wife has COPD. She has an oxygen concentrator (really, it's just a nitrogen separator. It removes a large chunk of the nitrogen from room air and sends the rest of it down a tube to her nose). We have to post warnings in the windows and the like because the increased oxygen saturation near her when she's using her concentrator makes things that aren't usually flammable quite a bit more so - the exact opposite of the concept described in TFA. An ordinary bic lighter can become quite a sight when you aim the output from the concentrator at it (don't try this at home, kids).

    5. Re:Safe to work by SEE · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your lungs are mostly worried about the partial pressure of oxygen; .16 bars is what you need. Your lungs don't care too much if that's .16 bars of 100% oxygen, or one bar of 16% oxygen, or two bars of 8% oxygen. The level of concentration of oxygen doesn't matter too much, just the pressure of oxygen to drive membrane gas exchange.

      Fires, however, do not have gas-exchange membranes like your lungs, making the partial pressure less important, and the concentration more so. 8% oxygen at two bars is less supportive of fires than 100% oxygen at .16 bars.

    6. Re:Safe to work by swillden · · Score: 2, Informative

      Fire burns at altitude because the PP of o2 is the same.

      Huh? ppO2 is *not* the same at high altitudes. At 0.7 atm (~10,000 feet above sea level), pp02 is 0.7*0.21 = .14 as compared to 0.21 at sea level.

      And, in fact, fires do not burn as well at high altitude. As someone who does a lot of camping above 10,000 feet I can tell you that fires are much harder to start and require much more air flow than they do at lower elevations. Boy Scouts are taught to use a "log cabin" structure for a campfire at high altitude, rather than the "tepee" structure that works well at low altitudes. The log cabin has large gaps on all four sides and at each level of the structure, to draw in enough oxygen for combustion, but those gaps also diffuse the heat and make it harder to get the sticks hot enough to burn. The tepee concentrates the heat better, but doesn't provide enough airflow at high elevations.

      My wife has COPD. She has an oxygen concentrator (really, it's just a nitrogen separator. It removes a large chunk of the nitrogen from room air and sends the rest of it down a tube to her nose).

      Yeah, those things can be dangerous. I know someone who opted to put a log on a burning fireplace while wearing an oxygen tube (though hers was from a tank of pure O2, not a COPD) and ended up with 3rd degree burns over a significant part of her body, because in the oxygen-rich air her clothing became extremely flammable. I'm sure you and your wife aren't so foolish, of course.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  4. The benefits of CO2 by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Funny

    TFA is way too complex. There are much simpler ways to handle the problem. The oxygen levels in many major cities are below 18% already. Just let CO2 levels keep going up, this will push oxygen percentages down a tad more, and we have no more computer fires.

  5. Re:But... by Doddman · · Score: 2, Funny

    Space suits would be an immediate answer

    --
    If creativity is the field, copyright is the fence.
  6. Oh great! by zappepcs · · Score: 3, Funny

    Now mountain climbing, hang gliding, and other low oxygen sports will be important on my resume!!

  7. IT workers first day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just imagine the new employee first day:
    - Here is your cube
    - Here is your chair
    - Here is your scuba gear ...

    1. Re:IT workers first day by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Make that an SCBA (like a firefighter wears), the 'U' in Scuba stands for underwater. ;)

  8. Re:Mechanical Halon? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It doesn't bind to the oxygen so much as just displace it. Halon is heavier than oxygen and just pushes it out of the area. Halon is dangerous though because if there are people in the room when it goes off they won't be able to breath.

    This whole idea doesn't seem that great. So what if something shorts out and sits there glowing red and no one notices? You sure as hell notice when something starts burning but something could be slowing frying multiple components before anyone notices because there would be no signs.

  9. Re:But... by j1m+5n0w · · Score: 4, Informative

    How could you work in a datacenter with no oxygen[?]
    From the article:

    At 15 percent oxygen, it's safe for humans to enter. The lower oxygen content of the air is similar to being at an altitude of about 6,000 feet, Eickhorn said. He demonstrated with a lighter inside a sealed atrium Wagner has on display at Cebit. It won't light.
  10. Breaking news: by solevita · · Score: 3, Funny

    Fire needs oxygen. More on this one as it comes in.

  11. Re:But... by Reverend528 · · Score: 5, Funny

    How could you work in a datacenter with no oxygen

    SSH?

  12. Time for carbon monooxide detectors by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Informative

    Although I'm sure this is safe for day-to-day operations (for low-altitude data centers) and will prevent a self-sustaining blaze, I'd bet that a smoldering powersupply would convert an unpleasant fraction of the low-oxygen atmosphere into carbon monoxide. Oxygen-staved combustion tends to produce this deadly gas (which kills by binding to hemoglobin better than does oxygen)

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Time for carbon monooxide detectors by mgv · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also, oxygen-starved combustion have a tendency to react almost explosively to a sudden oxygen-feed.
      Like, say, someone opening the server-room door.


      That won't cause a sudden oxygen feed. The pressures in the two rooms would be the same, just a different oxygen percentage.

      There would be a slow diffusion oxygen in.

      Michael

      --
      There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
  13. It would still smoulder and smoke by nietsch · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The lower oxigen content just means that fires will not selfsustain. But if you have an external source for energy input, like the short you mentioned, thngs will still get hot and start to smoke. The chances are just a bit better that it does not cause a full-on fire.
    You are not supposed to be working all the time in the serverroom anyway, it's much too noisy in there and your 200Watt of heat production would be much better used to warm your office.
    In other words: you would have noticed that fire too late anyway if you had to rely on the amount of smoke coming from it.

    --
    This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
    1. Re:It would still smoulder and smoke by falcon5768 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      HAHAHAHAHAHAH I wish I could quote this and give it to my boss....

      Not only do I work in the server room... we have CUBICLES in the server room with the network admins office RIGHT NEXT TO THE STACK. Needless to say, I cant hear the secretaries phone ring anymore.

      --

      "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

  14. Re:But... by slashbob22 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wonder if I would be allowed to wear flippers and my spear gun?
    I suppose thats in case the Barracuda firewall dives on you?
    --
    Proof by very large bribes. QED.
  15. Re:Datacenter / ski resort by Drawkcab · · Score: 5, Informative

    Its not exactly the same as being at 6000ft, its just similar from the perspective of how easily a human can breath. Higher altitudes have the same percentage of oxygen in the air, they just have lower air pressure, meaning less of all of its components. The lower altitude air will still be higher pressure, but with less oxygen. In terms of breathing, we just care about the partial pressure of oxygen, but thats not all that matters when it comes to whether something will burn.

  16. "Hostage" by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Shut up. We must conserve the air for as long as possible."
    "How long have we got?"
    "Minutes."
    "How many?"
    "I'll let you know."
    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  17. Perfectly safe. by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Funny

    Just your memory doesn't function as well, so you better make all the passwords really simple.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  18. Not limited to low-oxygen... by sczimme · · Score: 4, Funny


    But it can't hold a candle to the burning excitement of watching pasty-faced geeks burn out, run out of steam, and pass out in a low-oxygen environment.

    Watch an out-o'-shape pasty-tubby try to ride a bicycle some time: with all his belabored breathing, one would think he was climbing Everest instead of pedaling on level ground.

    I, of course, am in perfect shape, with nary an ounce of extraneous tissue to be seen...

    *looks around furtively*
    *runs away*
    *collapses after 30 yards*

    --
    I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
    1. Re:Not limited to low-oxygen... by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Atkins diet is a load of crap because the body needs carbohydrates.

      The body does not need carbohydrates. Your body can run fine on ketones. In fact, the brain operates more efficiently on ketones than on glucose.

      People have been living on this diet for a lot longer than it's been sold as a weight loss plan. People with certain types of seizures which cannot occur unless brain glucose is over a certain level live on it all their lives as a means of controlling seizures.

      In addition, and this is one of the essential arguments in favor of the Atkins diet, this is more or less the diet that several peoples evolved to eat. Not everyone, of course; it depends largely on the domesticable cereals which were present where those peoples lived.

      Finally, the Atkins diet does not completely contraindicate carbohydrates. You are expected to keep your intake low during the induction phase, but after you have lost weight you can if you like add in carbs until you begin to gain weight, then dial them back a bit and hold them there. For some people this is hundreds of grams a day, for some people only a couple of dozen. But the simple fact is that the Atkins diet does not prohibit all carbohydrates and your ignorance in this area is substantially telling.

      Would you like to state your next objection so I can debunk it as well? I may not get to it today, but I can go on like this for weeks.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    2. Re:Not limited to low-oxygen... by mfrank · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Atkins works great if you have low "metabolic resistance", where your metabolism shifts to burning fat and protein when your blood glucose levels fall below a certain level. I lost 35 pounds in 6 weeks doing it (10 pounds in the first week alone, not counting the two days it took for my glucose levels to drop to mostly nothing). If you don't have low metabolic resistance, it's going to be painful and it's not going to work.

  19. Re:But... by fredrated · · Score: 2, Informative

    Been to 6000 feet and cooked many meals there on a camp stove. At 11,000 feet as well. Fire burns at that altitude just fine.

  20. Poisonous exhaust by youthoftoday · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We had a similar issue when with the proliferation of large power-stations: water was pumped into cooling towers and then dumped in rivers. The cooling process de-oxygenated the water and this obviously meant the 'poisoning' of rivers (fish unable to breathe etc). We have a similar situation here. Only this time, the facility actually holds on to the oxygen. Why not mix it with the exhaust air (I'm sure it's not completely recirculated?) and avoid the potential for a similar situation. I know TFA says it's beathable, but it's worth considering the option nonetheless. Not all animals are humans. Remember what scale datacentres operate on, and which direection they're going in (they're not getting smaller). Has the potential not to be a significant issue...

    --
    -1 not first post
  21. What fun by Experiment+626 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Not only are server rooms windowless, freakishly cold, and with uncomfortable chairs, but now they asphyxiate you too.

    1. Re:What fun by stefanlasiewski · · Score: 3, Funny

      Chairs? You have a CHAIR? You have SPACE in your server room for a chair? You lucky dog.

      Heck, I count myself lucky if I can sit on a stepstool, and twist my body 45-degrees to reach keyboard tray propped on the server 18 inches above my shoulders

      I don't want oxygen, but I do want one of your fancy, schmancy chairs. I bet it even has a back!

      --
      "Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
  22. Boss in a Gingham dress by Dogtanian · · Score: 5, Funny

    Just imagine the new employee first day I can see this whole process being abused by somewhat amoral bosses:-

    Boss (on telephone to sysadmin in data centre): "I'm sorry Dave, but your recent conduct just hasn't been acceptable. I've decided to invoke the disciplinary procedure, and having discussed this with Mr. Flibble we've decided that this warrants 2 hours of W.O.O."
    Sysadmin: "What's W.O.O.?"
    Boss: "With ... out ... oxygen. No oxygen for 2 hours. That'll teach you to be a git."
    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  23. Re:But... by jandrese · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's because your fuel doesn't need higher concentrations of oxygen to ignite. With other materials that is not necessarily the case.

    Still, I've been out of breath plenty in datacenters after pulling long lengths of (heavy) SCSI cables. I can't imagine trying to do that in an O2 Poor environment.

    --

    I read the internet for the articles.
  24. Easy solution by tsstahl · · Score: 5, Funny

    Redesignate the open floor space as the management conference room. The oxygen will be sucked out in no time.

  25. Re:De"bugger" by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

    Why not lock the machines in a vacuum chamber and watercool? Or even full liquid immersion for that matter.

    We don't do immersion because it doesn't work over the long term. In the short term, it's fine. Even in a closed system, though, degradation of components leads to the contamination of the coolant, which then must be cleaned.

    Cleaning is itself a problem. All filters wear out, and no filters are perfect. The closest things you get are distillation, or reverse osmosis filtering. Distillation requires heat, and to clean that much water, too much heat will be needed. Reverse osmosis filters waste water, so the system won't be closed. In short, full immersion cooling is just a bitch.

    Liquid cooling is fairly reasonable, but it has its own problems as well. If you have a centralized pump and centralized cooling for the coolant, then a leak anywhere is a leak in the entire system. If you don't, then you have a jillion pumps and radiators and all kinds of other crap to fail.

    So liquid cooling is to be avoided in general, and full-immersion cooling simply isn't feasible.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  26. Re:But... by jtev · · Score: 4, Informative

    No, we exhale about 19% oxygen normaly. The bigger problem with rebreathing your own air is the buildup of CO2. That's why the astronauts on Apollo 13 were more worried about their scrubbers than their oxygen supply.

    --
    That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
  27. Re:Heh by ray-auch · · Score: 2, Funny

    > Third; how much would a brain damaged BOFH cost you?

    Dunno, are you assuming a brain damaged beyond the capability to enact revenge (which is pretty low-level wiring in the BOFH brain), or not ?

  28. Great by GreggBz · · Score: 3, Funny

    Great, now I have to wear a wireless bluetooth headset AND an oxygen mask when I'm on a tech support in the Data Center.
    The guys in HR already call me "space man."

  29. Re:Add Lighter Fluid by cmowire · · Score: 2, Informative

    Partial pressure of oxygen determines combustability.

    Amount of oxygen determines breathability.... which is how you can breathe astonishingly low pressures of pure oxygen in a space capsule.... till it catches on fire and makes a tasty dish of seared astronaut....

  30. Re:I call bullshit by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I saw this comment and saw that someone else had already explained this to someone else that had asked the same stupid question. But since you were modded up to +5 I guess I'll deal with this instance. The air in the data center at sea level with 14% oxygen has approximately the same amount of oxygen per cubic foot as the rarefied air at ~6,000 feet. Why? Because the air is denser. Note that TFA never claims that it is the same percentage of oxygen, only the same amount. These words mean entirely different things.

    If you are a native english speaker, shame on you! You have no command whatsoever of your native language.

    If you are not a native english speaker, I highly suggest that you return to your studies, because this language is stupid and you need more help with it. Don't feel bad - it happens to people of all countries who are trying to speak it. Including those who grew up speaking it.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  31. Optimal by phorm · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This might be safe for humans, but is it optimal for normal functioning. With a lower oxygen content, won't your lungs need to labor more to recover oxygen, and/or wouldn't your work ability be impaired somewhat (sleepiness etc) but the oxygen-poor air? This would be especially true if physical labour was required, for example lifting heavy servers on/off racks.

  32. Re:I call bullshit by stratjakt · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, at 6000 feet there is still the same percentage of oxygen in the air, but at a lower pressure. This removes oxygen from the air. For a same volume of space it would have as much oxygen as a similar volume at 6000 feet.

    Something will burn with the lower concentration of oxygen, but would be much less likely to ignite into open flame. It'd smolder slowly, and give you much more time to react to it.

    It's a confusing analogy to explain a simple technical concept, because tech writers assume everybody is beneath their intelligence. Like putting too much air in a balloon.

    --
    I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
  33. Re:But... by pavon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's because your fuel doesn't need higher concentrations of oxygen to ignite. With other materials that is not necessarily the case.
    That is definately not the correct explaination, as wood and plastic cables burn just fine at 6000 feet. I grew up at 7000+ feet, and had just as much fun with magnifying glass as any other kid.

    AFAIK, the percentage of oxygen is no different at altitude than at sea level, it is just the pressure of atmosphere is lower. So if I had to wager a guess, I would say that combustion is dependant on concentration of O2 per mass, and respiration is dependant on concentration of O2 per volume, which is why a smaller percentage of O2 has a greater effect on combustion then on respiration.
  34. Re:Mechanical Halon? by beadfulthings · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think he may have been on the whacky-weed. The drill was always the same--everybody out, last one out the door hits the big red button for the Halon. It was just by the door and was protected under a plastic shield so you couldn't just bump into it by accident. Of course those were data centers constructed as the Earth was still cooling and before the dinosaurs became extinct. We were also entrusted with (or encumbered by) massive tape reels--one per drone--and expected to keep them safe until everybody could assemble and regroup. Just grand carrying one of those down five flights of steps from a computer room that was unaccountably located on the top floor of a building.

    --
    "Here's what's happening. You're starting to drive like your Dad..." - Red Green
  35. This was great for non-smokers on a submarine. by Chyeburashka · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A few decades ago I served on a submarine. The oxygen generator stopped working for a while, and for operational reasons we couldn't snorkel for fresh air. The percentage of oxygen dropped below the point where combustion is supported, so the smokers were out of luck. People's lungs respond to the partial pressure of oxygen in air, not the absolute percentage, so the crew including myself were fine, since we were only at about the equivalent of 10,000 feet (US units). I always wondered wouldn't it be safer from a fire prevention standpoint to always operate like that.

    1. Re:This was great for non-smokers on a submarine. by jonwil · · Score: 3, Interesting

      More to the point, why are they even allowing smoking in the closed environment of a submarine in the first place?

    2. Re:This was great for non-smokers on a submarine. by Chyeburashka · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Fires burn just fine at 10K feet.

      Sorry, but that fact is not relevant here. See many other postings regarding that in this story. Having a partial pressure of oxygen "equivalent to 10,000 feet" but with a "normal" atmospheric pressure, translates to an oxygen percentage of about 15%. The total atmospheric pressure at 10K ft. is 10.1 psi. Normal air at that altitude is still 21%, so things burn normally as you irrelevantly pointed out. Big whoop. Some people (especially young Navy kids) can function quite well at 10K ft. equivalent for quite a long time. (150 kPa O2 vs 210 kPa O2 partial pressure). Others will suffer the effects in the article you linked to. YMMV. But cigarettes won't stay lit in 15% O2 unless you're dragging really, really hard. Believe me, it works. Not that you would want to go through this experience for long though. Headaches were common, and the tobacco junkies quite unbearable. The A-gangers got the O2 generator working after a few miserable days. Go put yourself on the dink list, skimmer!

    3. Re:This was great for non-smokers on a submarine. by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      More to the point, why are they even allowing smoking in the closed environment of a submarine in the first place?

      No kidding! Can you imagine the kind of power it'd take to drive the air scrubbers for something like that? You'd have to plug them directly into a nuclear powerplant or something.

      The reasons they'd allow smoking in that environment are that 1) in the scheme of things, the extra cleaning capacity needed to get the smoke out of the air is trivial, and 2) submarines are not exactly conducive to sanity, and the last thing you want to do before locking a smoker in a tiny underwater can for several months straight is to take away his calming influence. Actually, #2 is a far more important consideration than you might initially think.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
  36. Re:Mechanical Halon? by Big+Bob+the+Finder · · Score: 4, Informative

    Halons work to extinguish fire using several mechanisms. Oxygen displacement- not absorption or binding- is one of them, but if this were the only factor, then dry nitrogen, carbon dioxide, or other inert gas would work just as well.

    There are four things required for combustion: oxidizer, fuel, heat, and a chemical reaction that is self-sustaining- the "chain reaction," in which free radicals are formed. Halons work by kicking off chlorine, bromine, or fluorine radicals in the heat of the fire, ending these reactions. Unfortunately, the same properties that make this class of compounds so wonderful for extinguishing fires is also what makes them so good at terminating the production of ozone.

    I also seem to recall something in my distant past as a fire instructor that halons as a group have a fairly high specific heat, meaning they carry away more heat from the fire; this is a relatively minor factor when compared to things like water which have high specific heat and very high heat of vaporization. Water is surprisingly good at putting out electrical fires; energized systems can be handled by using distilled water, as was done at Browns Ferry nuclear power plant in Tennessee in 1975. But it's messy and doesn't fight "three dimensional" fires very well.

    Replacements such as FM-200 and Novec 1230 that do not survive long enough to reach the stratosphere have been made and are now available. They are comparable in effectiveness to more traditional halons (Halon 1211 and 1301), and Novec is shipped as a liquid rather than a compressed gas. This makes it safer and less expensive to transport. Being fluorinated molecules (no chlorine, just fluorine) less phosgene is produced during a fire, which is a good thing.

  37. Re:Add Lighter Fluid by Gospodin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Except that ppO2 = amount of oxygen (i.e. a ppO2 of 3psi is the same amount of O2 whether there's also a ppN2 of 12psi - roughly the composition of air at sea level - or it's pure O2). What you're thinking is that relative oxygen content determines combustability.

    --
    ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
  38. It isn't just the oxygen partial pressure. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 4, Interesting

    People cook out up in Estes Park at 9-13K all the time. Maybe dude needs to refill his lighter...

    It isn't just the partial pressure of oxygen that's important for fire. It's also the partial pressure of nitrogen. Nitrogen cools the reaction without contributing to it.

    So having the partial pressure of oxygen appropriate to 6,000 feet while having even greater than sea-level partial pressure of nitrogen could well keep a fire from burning (at least in some fuels) and make it much harder than usual to get one started even in things (like magnesium) that would be happy to burn in this atmosphere (or even in pure nitrogen).

    Meanwhile the human body is mostly interested in the partial pressure of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Walking into the data center would be like suddenly going from local altitude to 6,000 feet (minus the ear-pops and potential for a case of pressure-related issues). You'd run a little less "brightly" than usual. Live in such conditions 24/7 for a month or so and you'll build up additional hemoglobin in your blood until (like people who live at altitude) you're just fine. (I don't know if you'll get back to "full power" living in them 8/5, though.)

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  39. Re:Mechanical Halon? by ElectricRook · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I worked in a USAF sim that had halon under the floors, but no chilled air flow under the floors, and the floor tiles had no vents. One day the fire alarm tech accidentally triggered the halon, and the air pressure under the floor tiles lifted the tiles up and off of their frames. And it blew all the under floor dust up into the room. I think it was $10K to replace the two tanks (1988). The programmer in the room at the time said it sounds more like a bomb than a hiss.

    This incident occurred the day after we had a power supply convert itself into a "smoke generator", around midnight at shift change. It filled the sim with smoke. We ran in from the maintenance shop (through the sim was the way out too) the boss pulled the halon dump handle, and nothing happened. That's "Oh Shit" night, followed by a "Oh Shit" day. I think the fire alarm guys had a "Holy Fucking Shit" week.

    --
    - High Tech workers, please say NO to Union Carpenters, their Union sees fit to control our compensation.
  40. Re:But... by bendodge · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It think it's the ratio of nitrogen to oxygen that matters, not the pressure.

    --
    The government can't save you.
  41. Re:I call bullshit by inviolet · · Score: 2, Informative

    Does this mean that things don't burn above 6,000 altitude? I guess that I just imagined having camp fires above 8,000 feet in the Rockies. I saw the remains of a wooden building at over 14,000 feet that had burned to the ground. Something doesn't smell right with this article.

    At 6,000 feet or wherever, the oxygen concentration is still ~20%, albeit at lower pressure. This new product doesn't reduce the air pressure, it reduces the oxygen concentration. The effect on a human is approximately equivalent to being at 6,000 feet, but not exactly. In any event, it'll be a minor difference to you but a major difference to a fire.

    Think of it in reverse: you can breathe oxygen at 100% concentration and not feel a whole lot different, whereas wood and plastic burn like gunpowder at that concentration.

    --
    FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
  42. Boss as HAL 9000 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dave: Open the data centre door Hal
    Hal: I'm afraid I can't do that Dave.

  43. Re:The Ideal data center would be filled with Heli by geekboybt · · Score: 2, Funny

    And your data center will float, too!

  44. Re:Mechanical Halon? by pentalive · · Score: 2, Interesting

    protected under a plastic shield so you couldn't just bump into it by accident


    In a place I worked the computer room had a halon system. One day at shift change one of the operators caught a backpack strap on the mushroom button (even under the plastic mollyguard).. tore the button right off.

    His first mistake was trying to put the button back.... whooosh!

    halon stinks hours later.
  45. Excellent, until somone opens the cabinet door.... by CFD339 · · Score: 4, Funny

    Imagine your glowing red hot but not quite burning cable inside a low oxygen cabinet. The equipment isn't working well, some some poor tech is sent to fix it. Said tech opens the cabinet, introducing a lovely fresh mix of 21% oxygen into the cabinet, at which point the superheated pyrolized gasses mix with the oxidizer and you get what we in the fire department like to call...FLASHOVER....it's very bad for the complexion.

    --
    The problem with quotes on the internet, is that nobody bothers to check their veracity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  46. People vs fires by Jeff1946 · · Score: 2, Informative

    People depend on the partial pressure of oxygen, fires the percentage. Thus on US submarines we let the sailors breathe down the oxygen to about 19% before turning on the oxygen generator to keep it at this level. Generating oxygen for people by water electroysis is energy intensive and requires about 500W per person. Now back to fires. As other smart readers of /. have pointed out fires burn at high altitude. In this case the percentage of oxygen is the same (20.9%) as at sea level but the partial pressure of oxygen is reduced which affects people to some degree depending on the person and work load. For the system described in the article one would need to use caution if it was used at high altitudes to make sure that people were not in an environment too low in oxygen. In the "good old days" most sailors on submarines smoked and could tell when the oxygen level was down because they couldn't light or smoke their cigarettes. Another aside: the Apollo moon capsule was maintained at about 3 psi of pure oxygen in space. They used lower pressure so the walls of the lunar lander could be very thin, I believe about 0.02 inches thick. The astronauts worried about accidently kicking a hole in the wall. This way the partial pressure of oxygen was the same as on the ground. The original design had the system on the ground at 100% oxygen for simplicity, with of course tragic results...it was modified to begin with normal air then change to 100% oxygen at lower pressure after launch. It was assumed that fires wouldn't burn in space because there is no convection due to zero g. This is flawed because fans are used to circulate the air. Fire in an environment where you are trapped is always a great concern.

  47. Re:But... by akeyes · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now we can ask for that remote control (VR?) robot to do this work for us.

    We'd better buy 2, so we have a backup robot to repair the main one if it breaks down.

    Better buy 3, in case number 2 goes down when repairing number 1.
  48. Re:Mechanical Halon? by fuego451 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Halon 1211 (Bromochlorodifluoromethane) and Halon 1301 (Bromotrifluoromethane) have been banned in most countries since 1994 (The Montreal Protocol, as stated by the AC below) because they were found to deplete ozone.

    As has already been stated, Halon worked as a fire suppressant by displacing oxygen, thus disrupting the fire triangle (fuel, oxygen, heat). Also, in the presence of any remaining flame or smoldering debris, Halon oxidized into other toxic gasses including phosgene which is very, very bad stuff and was used as a chemical weapon during WWI.

    Like Carbon Tetrachloride extinguishers before them, Halon extinguishers had too many bad attributes; what we in the fire service would call, "Ethyl-Methyl-Bad-Shit".

  49. OSHA safety standards by SamShazaam · · Score: 2, Informative

    In the US, OSHA safety standards require supplemental oxygen if the oxygen percentage drops below 17.5%. Defying this standard risks a worker lawsuit and some very nasty regulatory fines. Testing with gas monitoring equipment will be required to prove the oxygen level if it is ordinarily below the requirement. At some point, some one must do some work on the equipment. A human at rest may be able to survive quite well at lower oxygen levels but a person doing work may need to consume a higher amount.

  50. Inergen by greyspacealien · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Inergen is an inert gas fire suppression system that does exactly the same thing with a much smaller environmental footprint. The gas is generated with similar equipment, and then stored in bottles (similar to Halon et. al.) and then when a fire is detected, the room is flooded with said gas. The installed system is also much less expensive than the equipment.

    See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inergen

  51. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by nwbvt · · Score: 4, Informative

    From TFA:

    At 15 percent oxygen, it's safe for humans to enter. The lower oxygen content of the air is similar to being at an altitude of about 6,000 feet, Eickhorn said. He demonstrated with a lighter inside a sealed atrium Wagner has on display at Cebit. It won't light.

    They are not talking about oxygen free rooms. Yes, as your article says, breathing pure nitrogen will kill you as humans don't run on nitrogen. But that does not mean a high nitrogen content would be dangerous. Otherwise you would die as soon as you breathed a breath of Earth's air which is, by a long measure, mostly nitrogen. So your article really has nothing to do with this subject. Its sort of like giving a story of how 900 degree temperatures inside a cremation furnace affect the human body and using that as an argument on why people shouldn't be allowed in houses with the heat turned on.

    --
    Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  52. Wood by proxy318 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wood stops burning when the oxygen content falls to 17 percent
    Ah, that's perfect for all those wooden servers we've got in the back.
    --
    Saying your "phone ran out of batteries" is like saying your "car ran out of gas tanks".
  53. Re:Not passing out the whole point of this by honkycat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Also, it is significantly better to have as much oxygen as possible while preventing fire -- flooding the center with pure nitrogen would be deadly unless you stopped while there was still enough O2 to breathe. According to the warning signs on the doors of the labs where I work, two breaths of pure nitrogen will knock you unconscious without any warning at all. Death will follow quickly...

  54. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by purduephotog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    *sigh*

    I *realize* they aren't talking about O2 free rooms. Perhaps I should have picked a better article closer to nitrogen asphyxiation then one advocating it's use for the death penalty. My bad.

    I was *trying* to point out that you don't want to get too carried away by 'inerting' areas because there are consequences- while you may become sleepy and tired from CO poisoning, or disoriented, hot, and suffocating from CO2 poisoning, people will not experience warning symptoms with N2 poisoning- they'll simply keel over. That's it- zip, nada- I'm all for fire-safing server rooms (GO HALON!). No motive to discredit this technology- and no interest IN discrediting it. Just simple information that your average person might not have known about...

    And you'll get into trouble with the N2/O2 becomes about 95%- there's not enough O2 partial pressure (Depending on your lung capacity and general health) without the addition of helium- that N2 has to dissolve somewhere, too...

  55. Re:But... by swillden · · Score: 5, Informative

    It think it's the ratio of nitrogen to oxygen that matters, not the pressure.

    Nope, it's the percentage of oxygen and the pressure. Multiplying pressure by percentage for each gas gives you the "partial pressure" of that gas, and it's the gradient of partial pressures that determines rate of absorption. Well, to be precise, gas in your tissues (lung tissues, blood, etc.) has "tension", not pressure, so it's the difference between the partial pressure of the gas in what you breathe and the partial tension of the same gas in your tissues that determines absorption rate.

    To live, you need a ppO2 within a certain range. IIRC, between about 0.05 (5% at 1 atm, or 10% at 0.5 atm, etc.) and 2.4 (pure O2 at 2.4 atm, or 50% at 4.8 atm, etc.). Below that range, oxygen doesn't diffuse into your tissues fast enough to supply their needs, above that range the oxygen begins to damage the tissues, in an effect known as oxygen toxicity.

    SCUBA divers who go to great depths take bottles with very low percentages of oxygen, low enough that the gas would be marginal for survival at the surface. They do it because at, say, 20 atm (600 feet), normal air has a ppO2 of about 4.2, far, far above the safe level. A 3% O2 mix at 20 atm, however has a comfortable ppO2 of 0.6. Since the deep mixes aren't breathable in shallow water, such divers either carry multiple bottles of different gas mixtures (don't mix 'em up!) or else have pre-positioned staged for appropriate depths.

    Going the other direction, pilots, astronauts and mountain climbers spend time in environments with very low pressures, low enough that the ppO2 is not survivable (or at least is not conducive to strenuous activity). So they breathe high concentrations of O2, usually from bottles of pure O2.

    Cardiovascular efficiency also plays a major role here. Good cardiovascular health means both increased lung surface tissue for absorption and higher-volume blood flow for delivery of absorbed gases to the tissues which in turn absorb them from the blood (mostly according to the partial tension gradient with a tissue-specific absorption coefficient). So, people with good cardiovascular health can survive lower ppO2 levels.

    Nitrogen has no effect on any of this, except as a gas to fill up the non-oxygen part of the mix, and, for divers a gas that will be absorbed under high pressures and released from tissues as pressures decrease. "The bends" is just nitrogen coming out of solution too fast and forming bubbles which block blood vessels.

    CO2, on the other hand, is poisonous. I don't recall what the levels are, but above a certain ppCO2, you pass out and then die. CO2 must be removed from your breathing gas. This isn't an issue for open circuit SCUBA divers, whose exhalations float off to the surface, but it's important for rebreather divers and, obviously, for astronauts and others in sealed environments.

    Bringing this back to the topic at hand, 17% O2 shouldn't be a problem for anyone of normal cardiovascular health unless the data center is located on a high mountain peak. Someone who has some lung injury or deficient circulation wouldn't want to work in such a data center, but most such people routinely use a nasal flow of pure O2 anyway so, again, it shouldn't be a problem.

    --
    Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
  56. Re:I call bullshit by man_ls · · Score: 2, Funny

    So if a fire starts, then it's like a balloon, and then something bad happens?

  57. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by nwbvt · · Score: 5, Informative

    "I was *trying* to point out that you don't want to get too carried away by 'inerting' areas because there are consequences- while you may become sleepy and tired from CO poisoning, or disoriented, hot, and suffocating from CO2 poisoning, people will not experience warning symptoms with N2 poisoning- they'll simply keel over."

    You will only get the "simply keel over" effect if oxygen levels are 0 (or close to it), like if you suck on a hose spouting pure nitrogen. The same thing will happen if you start breathing pure CO2. If you are in an environment where your body cannot get the oxygen it needs, you will simply die. If on the other hand you get a more gradual fall in oxygen levels (which would be the most common failure scenario here, as well as in most everyday situations where CO2 levels rise), you will feel side effects first. And anyways, as long as you have reasonable safety precautions, its still not going to rise to the level of "They'd better make damn sure NO ONE can defeat the safeties to get into that room", like you said in your first post. I mean if you are going to keep people out of any enclosure where there may be a drop in oxygen levels, you would also have to keep them out of houses and apartments that are heated with natural gas (which may result in a methane leak).

    "Just simple information that your average person might not have known about..."

    I'm pretty sure the average person knows you need oxygen to breathe.

    --
    Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  58. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by John+Frink · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Since we're talking about how much oxygen is in a room I think I should point out that the standard atmosphere is around 21% oxygen and 78% nitrogen and 1% other.

    --
    Who is this Jimmy character, and why was he cracking corn in the first place?
  59. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by The_Wilschon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Three breaths, huh? He must be a really slow breather. I could hold my breath for longer than it would take any normal person to take three breaths, with absolutely no danger of passing out, much less dying. N2 is inert. It is not poison. The worst it will do is displace oxygen, giving about the same effect as holding your breath. Since your brain can survive for I believe about 7 minutes without oxygen (although anything over what, 2 minutes I think, tends to cause some brain damage), you'd have to remain in a very low oxygen or oxygen free environment for that long before you'd have really serious problems.

    --
    SIGSEGV caught, terminating

    wait... not that kind of sig.
  60. Re:But... by orzetto · · Score: 3, Informative

    Both you and the parent post are right, in a way.

    it's the difference between the partial pressure of the gas in what you breathe and the partial tension of the same gas in your tissues that determines absorption rate.

    Nitrogen does nothing, but it is in the way. Oxygen has to diffuse through nitrogen to get to a place where it is consumed, and diffusion is a relatively slow process (yes, I am a chemical engineer, and I did run Stefan-Maxwell simulations).

    Say you have a total pressure of 20 kPa, 100% oxygen. If oxygen is consumed at point X by a reaction (I will drop the issue of products diffusing out), all other oxygen around will rush to the spot unhindered (pressure is fast: actually the limit would be the speed of sound). If you have dry air atmosphere, you have 20 kPa oxygen and 80 kPa nitrogen. If oxygen is consumed at point X, nitrogen will accumulate there since air as a whole, not oxygen only, are dragged to point X, and only oxygen is disappearing.

    So, yes, what counts for reaction rate is the partial pressure of oxygen, but in many cases (and fires are one of these) diffusion limits how fast oxygen can get to the reaction, so you cannot just pretend you do not have an inert gas in the way.

    above that range the oxygen begins to damage the tissues, in an effect known as oxygen toxicity.

    In fact it is even worse than that, at 100 kPa oxygen (~one atmosphere of pure oxygen) flesh burns "vigorously", as my buddy's professor in combustion used to say. That's why you are not allowed any sort of lighter or match in a hyperbaric chamber, as people inside would burn as gasoline.

    --
    Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
  61. Please read a physiology textbook. by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Three breaths, huh? He must be a really slow breather.



    Not really. It takes about 20 seconds for blood from the lungs to reach the brain. If the blood is desaturated, you'll pretty much pass out instantly when this happens.



    N2 is inert. It is not poison. The worst it will do is displace oxygen, giving about the same effect as holding your breath.



    No. No. No. It's absofrigginlutely not the same. If you hold your breath, the blood can still take up oxygen from the air in your lungs, and the partial pressure of oxygen in the air in your lungs drops very slowly.

    If, on the other hand, the gas in your lungs contains no oxygen (i.e. the partial pressure of oxygen is zero), then the blood will actually release oxygen instead of taking it up while travelling through the lungs, effectively becoming desaturated.


    Roughly twenty seconds after you start breathing a gas mixture without oxygen, desaturated blood will reach your brain and it's lights out. Period.

  62. Re:They won't pass out- they'll die. by Cyberax · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No, breathing center in the brain detects only high CO2 levels. There are secondary effects of low O2 level, but you won't have enough time to feel them. Besides, these effects are subconscious - you usually don't notice them.

    To quote http://www.csb.gov/safety_publications/docs/SB-Nit rogen-6-11-03.pdf :
    "Breathing an oxygen deficient atmosphere can have serious and immediate effects, including unconsciousness after only one or two breaths."