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Store Says DRM Causes 3 of 4 Support Calls

Carter writes "Ars Technica is reporting that Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores, has found that 75% of its customer support problems are caused by DRM. Users have frequent problems using the music that they have purchased, which has led Musicload to try selling independent label music without DRM. Artists choosing to abandon DRM in favor of good old-fashioned MP3 have seen 40% growth in sales since December. Good to see someone in the business both 'gets it' and is willing to do something about it."

155 comments

  1. These Are Desired Problems by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Curiously, the article doesn't mention any specific problems. I'm racking my tiny brain right now to think of some problem that isn't desired by the RIAA.

    I submit to you the anecdotal evidence of my sister's "iPod." She purchased songs through iTMS and attempted to move the DRM'd files onto her SanDisk MP3 Player. Then she wondered why it didn't work. It didn't work because the files have digital rights management & only brand specific players will play it--and vice versa.

    You know, right now iPods are probably the most popular portable music device. But I don't know of any other music download DRM services that they work with. So if some third party download service called Musicload is reporting that 75% of problem calls are DRM related, I'm going to wager that every single call went a little something like "Do you have an iPod?" "No." "I'm sorry, iPod doesn't support our DRM." (or the German equivalent). In fact, on their site, I don't see an iPod as being supported.

    I think a DRM standard that everyone adopts would avoid these issues but I don't forsee that happening in the future. It benefits Apple somewhat because they can have a great service or a great player and reap the market. I don't blame them, however, because they do a fine job on both ends. I am concerned about any sort of free market existing here.

    In the end, the RIAA wants these problems. They don't want you docking a player with many computers and soaking up the files. They want one player associated with one computer associated with one account and any attempt to anything else should wipe everything off the face of the planet. Why? Money. Somehow the consumer no longer has a voice.

    --
    My work here is dung.
    1. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Interesting

      DRM and it's monopolizing ability will be gone by the end of this decade.

    2. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Informative

      In fact, on their site, I don't see an iPod as being supported.


      From the Musicload site:

      TIPPS
      Kein WMA mit iPod!
      Kein WMA mit iPod!
      Der iPod unterstützt leider nicht das populäre Windows Media Audio (WMA) Format von Microsoft. Musicload empfiehlt deshalb Mobile Player zu kaufen, die WMA und MP3 Formate abspielen können.


      Auf Englisch (my translation):

      IPod unfortunately does not support Microsoft's popular format, Windows Media Audio (WMA). Therefore, Musicload recommends that you buy a Mobile Player which can play WMA and MP3 formats.

      Specifically, Musicload's offerings are in WMA unless they fall in the subset of non-DRM'd media now available -- so no iPods is right on the mark.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    3. Re:These Are Desired Problems by danpsmith · · Score: 1, Redundant

      I think a DRM standard that everyone adopts would avoid these issues but I don't forsee that happening in the future. It benefits Apple somewhat because they can have a great service or a great player and reap the market. I don't blame them, however, because they do a fine job on both ends. I am concerned about any sort of free market existing here.

      Don't worry, a free market for this otherwise DRM'd material already exists. And they are selling their "warez" at bottom barrel prices!

      --
      Judges and senates have been bought for gold; Esteem and love were never to be sold.
    4. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      DRM and it's monopolizing ability will be gone by the end of this decade.
      Oh, thank god! I was worried that the RIAA would continue to rape me and the artists like they have been for the past 30 years. But now this anonymous coward has reassured me that it will not last past 2010!

      I can't wait for 2010. No more DRM and I'll have my flying stainless steal DeLorean!
    5. Re:These Are Desired Problems by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      There are services such as eMusic.com that sell music without DRM. This gets rid of the whole problem with music not playing on one player or the other, because MP3 plays on just about everything, even the iPod.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and they are kicking the people who make original new content in the nuts every time they do it.
      The warez providers are just thieving leeches, to refer to them in any other way is just plain old innacurate.

    7. Re:These Are Desired Problems by tanguyr · · Score: 1

      Yeah, about that flying DeLorean... I'm afraid the boys down at the tool shed have run into a hitch. Don't worry, they tell me they can fix it, absolutely nothing to it... but we might be just a little bit late with the delivery.

      --
      #!/usr/bin/english
    8. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Seumas · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't buy CDs anymore, unless they are to support a band I'm interested in and it is the only way I can purchase them. First thing I'll do is run home and rip them so I can add them to my digital collection, which is how I listen to 100% of my music.

      I don't buy anything with DRM. If there is DRM, I'm more likely to just get it from bit torrent or a Russian site. It will have much higher quality, too.

      However, if you have good music and the money is going to you and I can get it simply via digital download, I'm all over that. I won't pay a dollar a song on iTunes and have never used that. For a buck a song, I might as well just go buy the CD and rip them myself so I don't have any DRM restrictions in the first place! But if you have unrestricted, quality MP3s available for a simple download (like Anders Manga, The Low, etc) I will gladly pay $10 or $12 an album and - quite recently - have a number of times.

      I think this goes to support the growing swell of "I'm willing to pay if you're willing to give me what I want".

    9. Re:These Are Desired Problems by HunterZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hence the phrase "defective by design"

      http://defectivebydesign.org/

      --
      Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
    10. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Courageous · · Score: 1

      Curiously, the article doesn't mention any specific problems. I'm racking my tiny brain right now to think of some problem that isn't desired by the RIAA.

      The support phone call. Each and every one of them is like tick after tick after depressing tick of red ink.

      C//

    11. Re:These Are Desired Problems by J0nne · · Score: 3, Insightful

      WMA is popular? Since when?

    12. Re:These Are Desired Problems by rudlavibizon · · Score: 1

      Auf Englisch (google translation): TIPPS no WMA with iPod! no WMA with iPod! iPod unfortunately the popular Windows Media audio (WMA) does not support format of Microsoft. Musicload recommends to buy therefore mobile Player, which can play WMA and MP3 of formats

    13. Re:These Are Desired Problems by bberens · · Score: 2, Informative

      I realize this tripe argument is often dragged out and people are tired of hearing it but I'm one of those users who, on occasion, will buy a license but run a warez version because the copy protection makes the product difficult to use.

      --
      Check out my lame java blog at www.javachopshop.com
    14. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Brad+Eleven · · Score: 1

      Somehow the consumer no longer has a voice.
      It seems to me that the consumer isn't the customer with most modern media:

      • Television: the customer is the advertiser
      • Film: the customer is the theater (although there is reselling)
      • Music Store: the customer is the store (isn't that how sales are calculated?)

      By "customer" I refer not so much to the direct revenue source for the media creator/owner as the primary influence entity. If I like a song, film, TV show, etc., about all I can do is to buy one or more copies. Compare/contrast to YouTube and friends, where popularity is all about something akin to voting.

      It's not simply a matter of middlemen, e.g., the actual consumers (you and I) are not involved in the creation and distribution of the product. It looks like the corporations are out of touch with What's Actually Going On.

      What a shocker. Next thing you know, they'll be found to have been paying their executives Too Much Money. Now that would only exacerbate the problem by further isolating these important decision makers from reality.

      --
      "Press to test."
      (click)
      "Release to detonate."
    15. Re:These Are Desired Problems by nuclearspike · · Score: 1

      Ok, maybe he's not right about 2010, but Dec 12, 2012 is the end of the world, so in that respect DRM will be gone. :)
      Oh no, look out! a google search for 12/21/2012

    16. Re:These Are Desired Problems by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      except, of course, the iPod can play mp3s.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    17. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Nushio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Somehow the consumer no longer has a voice. "

      We still do. We speak in the only language they understand. Money.

      Speak with your wallets, not your voice.

      --
      Check out Unsealed: Whispers of Wisdom! http://unsealed.k3rnel.net It's an action-RPG about Open Sourcerers.
    18. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Red+Flayer · · Score: 1

      Almost all of Musicload's selection is not offered in mp3. Hence, the support calls when people download WMA media and it won't work in their iPod.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    19. Re:These Are Desired Problems by geekoid · · Score: 1

      You know, I went there and then went and looked at there letter.

      It really shows how ignorant they are. I wonder if the people who crafted that letter have even read the DMCA?

      Point 1 and 2 ignore the fact that if they don't DRM content, the provider will just say No. They won't even consider it until they have a sizable revenue history to look at the loss they wuld aquire if Apple stopped selling music and movies.

      Point 3 would be bad becasue the safe harbor provision would go away, making ISP's liable for any content users post.

      OTOH, it's a great band wagon to jump on because the market seems to be getting rid of DRM anyways.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    20. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Indulge me. I'm feeling anti-MS this afternoon)

      See? It wasn't the DRM that was causing the problems! It was that EE-vil Microsoft!

      Really- WMA? There should be absolutely no problem, 'cause it's Play For Sure!

    21. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 1

      My guess is you have a hundred different "playsforsure" players. Thing is if you are a music store and you want to sell drm'd tunes you can't actually support the ipod because its proprietary.

    22. Re:These Are Desired Problems by bendodge · · Score: 1

      Personally, I really like WMA's lossless compression, because it is fairly efficient and "normal" people can play it (and it doesn't have to have DRM).

      --
      The government can't save you.
    23. Re:These Are Desired Problems by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Now if you can only convince all the studios to allow their stuff to be released as mp3's, we'd be set.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    24. Re:These Are Desired Problems by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately is doesn't get rid of the problem of eMusic having a VERY limited selection.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    25. Re:These Are Desired Problems by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I think this goes to support the growing swell of "I'm willing to pay if you're willing to give me what I want". I couldn't quite tell from your post -- does this mean you're willing to steal if not? Or just that you will do without? (Hopefully the latter, as a significant number people choosing to do that and /not/ stealing is the only way to really show the industry that they're wrong.)
    26. Re:These Are Desired Problems by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      It has a better selection than most brick and mortar music stores. Oh wait, you want to listen to Britney Spears and other top 40 bands. Sorry they don't have that, but they do have a very good selection never the less.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    27. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      I submit to you the anecdotal evidence of my sister's "iPod." She purchased songs through iTMS and attempted to move the DRM'd files onto her SanDisk MP3 Player. Then she wondered why it didn't work. It didn't work because the files have digital rights management & only brand specific players will play it--and vice versa.
      That's exactly why I haven't ever bought something from iTMS and won't buy DRM encumbered files. I still own the first CD I bought. It's a Herbie Hancock album that I bought over 21 years ago. It still plays in any CD player without problems. If I buy a song or album off of iTMS, how do I know that I'll still be able to play it 10 or 20 years from now?
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    28. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Personally, I really like WMA's lossless compression, because it is fairly efficient and "normal" people can play it (and it doesn't have to have DRM).

      1) Not all WMA players support WMA Lossless.
      2) Apple Lossless is just as efficient, can be played by "normal" people, and doesn't have DRM.

    29. Re:These Are Desired Problems by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      I think this goes to support the growing swell of "I'm willing to pay if you're willing to give me what I want"

      I'm pretty sure that's how the free market has always worked. It is not a new thing.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    30. Re:These Are Desired Problems by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      I still own the first CD I bought. It's a Herbie Hancock album that I bought over 21 years ago. It still plays in any CD player without problems. If I buy a song or album off of iTMS, how do I know that I'll still be able to play it 10 or 20 years from now?

      The truth is that the vast majority of music purchases don't last ten or twenty years. How did you know that CD would last so long? Nor do most people buy it with the expectation that they will even want to listen to it decades later. So, to be fair, your concern is not one that is shared by most people -- which is true of almost every practical criticism of DRM.

      Realistically, the only thing effecting the playability of your purchased file is the longevity of Apple or whomever might obtain the right to iTunes' authorization system should Apple go under. I would equate this with the risk taken when investing in any other format -- 78s, LPs, 8-tracks, cassettes, MiniDisc, LaserDisc, CDs, DVD, WMA -- it's different, but not strikingly so. You can't "know" with certainty that any format will last any length of time. There is no special reason that FairPlay-encrypted tracks won't still be playable decades from now.

      This is, of course, ignoring the fact that you would have ten or twenty years in which to back up your purchase on a DRM-free CD...or two, or three, or a thousand.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    31. Re:These Are Desired Problems by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Heh, really. It reminds of how the car dealers would and buy and sell amongst each other to show how "good" business is. That why you gotta buy this great bargain right now. It won't be here next week. They don't tell you it's two lots down the street. It's ok. You didn't want that oil burning piece of junk anyway.

      --
      What?
    32. Re:These Are Desired Problems by iamacat · · Score: 1

      Backup to CD option allows you to treat iTMS tracks as either low-quality (if you recompress) or space consuming DRM-free music. The same can not be said about iTunes movies. Not only you are unable to make a backup, but you may not be able to play them NOW on a new computer without Internet connection. Effectively you are paying for a product with no guaranteed useful lifetime.

    33. Re:These Are Desired Problems by webheaded · · Score: 1

      I.E. Windows and Microsoft Office. The most annoying activation schemes I've ever encountered. I laughed at my friend's dad trying to get Office to work on his computer and told him that my pirated version worked so much easier.

      --
      "Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
    34. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Matt+Perry · · Score: 1

      How did you know that CD would last so long?
      I didn't know, but I fully expected it to. This was reinforced by the care and handling instructions in the CD insert, like most from that era, which listed the proper care and handling of the CD and ensured that it was last for a lifetime if handled properly.
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    35. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 0, Troll

      The support calls are probably due to how much WMA sucks ass compared to Apple's DRM. At least Apple's DRM *works*. (And cross-platform, too.)

    36. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Great, now all you have to do is convince the other 300 million people in the US to do the exact same thing you do!

      Why do people post stuff like this? Does it advance the discussion? Sure, you have a great attitude towards DRM and happy happy, but how does that solve anything *for the general population?*

    37. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And had CD players gone the way of the 8 track?

    38. Re:These Are Desired Problems by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > But if you have unrestricted, quality MP3s available for a simple download (like Anders Manga,
      > The Low, etc) I will gladly pay $10 or $12 an album and - quite recently - have a number of times.

      You pay money for music that's been lossily compressed? Man, that's one place I won't go.

      I just buy the CD, rip to wav files, import them into my music database, make sure the metadata are what I want them to be, and then encode to FLAC for scrobbling purposes. (If I didn't use the Last.fm service, I'd just leave them in WAV format, like I used to do. It's not like hard drive space is prohibitively expensive, when an entire CD is less than a gigabyte.)

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    39. Re:These Are Desired Problems by elrous0 · · Score: 1

      Well you'll get no argument from me that top 40 is crap. But the truth of the matter is that is what the vast majority of people actually listen to and want to buy.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    40. Re:These Are Desired Problems by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Backup to CD option allows you to treat iTMS tracks as either low-quality (if you recompress) or space consuming DRM-free music.

      We're talking about keeping the music in a playable form for decades. "Space-consuming" is meaningless in that context. At the very least, it's less meaningful than what "space-consuming" means in the context of any physical media. Furthermore, my post was mostly about why you probably won't need to do this at all.

      Not only you are unable to make a backup, but you may not be able to play them NOW on a new computer without Internet connection.

      You may not be able to play a CD now without a CD player. So what? Get a CD player. Get an internet connection. Clearly they are not hard to come by -- you had to have to have one to make the purchase in the first place.

      Effectively you are paying for a product with no guaranteed useful lifetime.

      Most products you buy do not have a guaranteed useful lifetime. If you expect them to last a certain amount of time, it is from experience and understanding of the limiting factors. To reiterate my point from above, the only limiting factor in the case of iTunes purchases is the Apple's continued existence, or more specifically, the continued existence of the FairPlay authentication system. I do not see tying ones expectations for the useable lifetime of these purchases to this factor as significantly more "risky" than tying them to the longevity of (say) 8-track cassettes, or 5.25" floppy disks.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    41. Re:These Are Desired Problems by iamacat · · Score: 1

      You may not be able to play a CD now without a CD player. So what? Get a CD player.

      True, but after you borrowed your friend's CD player for an hour, you can easily play music on a tape or MD. If I can borrow my friend's computer with iTunes and transfer the movie to tape or DVD, this will solve all my problems.

      Most products you buy do not have a guaranteed useful lifetime.

      Don't know, most of mine come with a 3 year warranty. And after that, if they break down, I have an option to repair it myself or bring it to a 3rd party shop. I can not just write my own AAC player or download one from sourceforge after I buy a new computer and Apple's DRM servers are no longer up.

    42. Re:These Are Desired Problems by Darby · · Score: 1

      Somehow the consumer no longer has a voice.

      The "consumer" has never had a voice, since they are just things whose job it is to consume whatever shit is getting pumped out.

      Back when people were customers or, heaven forbid, *citizens* they did.

      Hell, you even refer to yourself as a consumer. That's how far downhill we've come just in my lifetime. When I was a kid, I don't remember any business having the audacity and contempt to refer to the people whose custom their business depends on by such a derogatory term.

  2. I dont get it. by brian.gunderson · · Score: 5, Funny

    I personally don't understand why everybody hates DRM so much. Let's consider the needs of the handicaped for once.

    --
    Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
    1. Re:I dont get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Coward: One man may toast his muffins before the fine fireplace of privilege, whilst another contracts pnuemonia in the knackers of non-entity. Get back to non-entity coward.

    2. Re:I dont get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Sheesh.. you don't have the slightest idea what people mean when they talk about DRM.

      See? It's already in the Linux kernel!

    3. Re:I dont get it. by slashdotusername · · Score: 1

      Just ask Superman - it's not easy being handicaped. That handy cape gets in the way sometimes!

  3. 'Bout time by BloodyIron · · Score: 0, Redundant

    'Bout time

  4. Four? by Das+Auge · · Score: 5, Funny

    Four support calls isn't really that bad...

    1. Re:Four? by SPQR_Julian · · Score: 1

      Is it bad that I wondered how 75% of anything can ever be equal to 4?

    2. Re:Four? by Darby · · Score: 1

      Is it bad that I wondered how 75% of anything can ever be equal to 4?

      16/3?

  5. The wrong person is "getting" it by Overzeetop · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This store is taking a realistic look at their support costs, and has determined that a particular "feature" is costing them a lot of money.

    Woohoo. Great. Little happy dance. Big fucking deal.

    They aren't the ones who are pushing DRM. They ahve it because without it they wouldn't get the major label tracks which (I presume) form the bulk of their income. This isn't hurting the labels who are requiring the DRM, its simply sqishing the middle players. Now, this is certainly better than just squishing the consumer, but it's still a far cry from leverage to affect change where the change can actually occur.

    --
    Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    1. Re:The wrong person is "getting" it by croddy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The stores that are pushing the DRM-encumbered media are complicit in pushing DRM. They've chosen willingly to push this technology, and that doesn't make them the victims. They're merely the little dog, racing around the bigger one as it rips at the consumer's jugular.

  6. Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by Intron · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Odd name for a movie store.

    Anyway, I've returned a DVD because it wouldn't play on my computer. Not surprisingly, it was due to DRM. If the stores lose money trying to sell it, then they will stop carrying it.

    --
    Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    1. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very few stores even let you return a DVD that fails to play properly after you opened it except in exchange for another DVD which might end up having the same problem playing if your issue playing is caused by DRM.

    2. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by jabuzz · · Score: 1

      Except in the U.K. and I suspect the rest of the E.U. by law any vendor of goods *must* take back faulty goods and offer a *full* refund. They may try and play hard ball, but in the end they will have to give way because it is the law. There is no exception in the law for CD's or DVD's because the user might have copied them.

    3. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by elrous0 · · Score: 1
      It used to be worse. Their original slogan was "Let us shoot a Musicload right into your ear!"

      It sounded a lot better in the original German.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    4. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I know you should be modded insightful by rights, but a lot of how well this works in practise (particularly with large chains) is going to depend on how clued up the store manager is with regard to the law.

      More often than not, the answer is "Not very". And the training is "when in doubt, refer to company policy" - and I've seen plenty of examples in recent years where company policy is in complete contradiction to statutory rights.

    5. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by digitig · · Score: 1

      More often than not, the answer is "Not very". And the training is "when in doubt, refer to company policy" - and I've seen plenty of examples in recent years where company policy is in complete contradiction to statutory rights. Yes, but in my experience if you know your ground they'll cave in. I've had just this problem with Asda (the UK Wal-Mart subsidiary) and I just kept asking to speak to somebody who could "override company policy and give me my statutory rights under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982, the Sale and Supply of Goods Act 1994 and The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002". The clerk on the counter eventually called the manager who gave me the refund.
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    6. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by Builder · · Score: 1

      I've tried exactly that track with Tesco here. In the end I walked out with the DVD and no money back. They would not budge.

      So I called the DTI, who told me to call consumer direct (on an 0870 number no less!). Consumer direct told me that because the goods were opened and not in a saleable condition, the vendor was not obliged to take them back.

      I explained that the goods did not work with my equipment, but that didn't make any headway.

      So I gave up.

    7. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by digitig · · Score: 1

      "Did not work with my equipment" could have been the problem. IANAL, but IME "Not fit for the purpose for which it was sold" might have got you further. Failing that, there's always the small claims court -- assuming that there was a genuine issue with the DVD and you're not trying to use it on a DVD player with a different region setting to the local one.

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    8. Re:Musicload, one of Europe's largest movie stores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the odd name is because it's from Germany, specifically the Deutsche Telekom. And Germans can't speak English worth shit. BTW: musicload sucks big time.

  7. I don't believe their data by giorgiofr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Simply put, the user is too dumb to realize they even have a problem, let alone link it to DRM. Nobody knows what DRM even is, there is no awareness at all. 'nuff said.
    As a side note: why don't the famous musicians dump their majors and start selling mp3s independently? I would suppose they'd earn much more.

    --
    Global warming is a cube.
    1. Re:I don't believe their data by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Might work if you own the studio and what not. But if you have no money and need access to a quarter of a million dollars worth of recording gear ... what are you going to do? The problem is they don't break away from the recording companies soon enough...

      As for people not knowing what DRM is ... I'd say that's a bit reaching. Most people who have used itunes or DVDs are at least aware of "something" which makes it harder to use things as you'd think you could (re: skip the ads at the start, or copy the itunes files to other machines).

      They might not know the intricate details about how the DRM "unworks" the system, but I think they're at least aware of it's presence.

      Tom

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    2. Re:I don't believe their data by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Artists can't dump their labels. Once you sign a contract with a label your pretty signed your life to that label for life. There isn't much you can do to get out of working for them.

      A label can dumb an artist. However how many bands do you know have switched labels?

      none that I know of maybe someone else knows where to look.

      The only thing left to do is to make DRM look bad. Which isn't that hard. heck just look at all the problems they are having trying to get HDCP to work properly.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    3. Re:I don't believe their data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why don't the famous musicians dump their majors and start selling mp3s independently? I would suppose they'd earn much more.

      It is called a contract; not to mention the exposure that the major labels can bring to the table. If you already established; you might be able to go it alone.

    4. Re:I don't believe their data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I doubt most people will know it's the DRM, but the support people will and that's where they'll get the statistics from.

      Customer: "The song i downloaded doesn't work on my MP3 player!"
      Support Person: (Thinking) "DRM again..."

    5. Re:I don't believe their data by tomstdenis · · Score: 1

      What? You can leave a label, but only after the term is up. If you sign up for 4 albums, your next 4 albums belong to them. At the end of that time you don't have to re-sign. Most probably don't switch labels because things are working out [re: cocaine supply is steady].

      The problem is the bar to get into the field is high. Not only do you [normally] need talent, but you also need gear and people who know how to use the gear. unless you're sitting at a piano or playing an accoustic on your own it's fairly costly to produce an album that people will buy in sufficient numbers to make a quality life from.

      So most people take their talent and let a label handle the rest.

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    6. Re:I don't believe their data by UncleTogie · · Score: 1

      However how many bands do you know have switched labels? none that I know of maybe someone else knows where to look.
      Never heard of Paul McCartney? While I may not like her work, I've heard of Jessica Simpson.

      These examples were found within 2 minutes of looking. Try checking a little more closely next time before you post.
      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    7. Re:I don't believe their data by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Plenty of artists have switched labels. Frank Zappa, John Fogerty, John Lennon and Paul McCartney all come to mind. If you switch before you've delivered your contractual obligation, you may be sued, or at the very least forfeit some monetary amount. Labels usually dump artists simply because they aren't selling enough records to meet contractual obligations.

      I'm not defending record companies here. They're crooks through and through, and have been for decades. They'll lie, steal and cheat at the drop of hat, and the contracts that they have pushed artists into have been repugnant, though it's more difficult nowadays because tales of how people like Bo Diddley were ripped off by thieving companies are legendary. But changing labels, once you've fulfilled your contract, is simply a matter of finding someone else to sign you up.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    8. Re:I don't believe their data by croddy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As Dick Dale said:

      Don't sign with a label; don't sign with a record company, because the minute you sign your name, you will lose all the rights to your music, and you will never see a dime. So what you should do is build up your following by continuously playing. Save up your money and record your own stuff and your own CDs, and then learn to market yourself. Sell your own CD's right out of your vehicle, right out of your show, just like Johnny Cash sold his records right out of the trunk of his car. ... If you sign with a label, the label will take it all, and you won't see one nickel. And that's the reason why labels will give you a million dollars up front... they'll invest four million into you and they'll take about fourteen million making that kind of money off of you and you'll end up owning them two million. So you'll never see a dime of anything that you do. And when you start to make money for the company they make you record another song, so that you will go back in the hole again, the company does. So that's the reason why you'll never see a dime in royalties. You'll be lucky if they even give you thirty-five cents a record. Whereas if you make and sell your own CD, whatever it costs you to make the CD, above and beyond that you'll put in your own pocket.

      This is a guy that's survived a shark bite, beaten cancer, and has been supporting himself playing music since the early 60's. Anyone who tells you that you need a major label to promote your work is either ignorant or actively trying to defraud you.

    9. Re:I don't believe their data by toadlife · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If they go independant

      * Their music will *never* be played on mainstream radio ("payola", though in more subtle forms, is very much alive today)
      * Their videos will never be played on Music Channels like mTV
      * Their CDs will never be sold in major music stores, or sold on major online retailers.
      * As a result of the aforementioned, they will never be able to to gain much exposure, and thus never be able to sell many concert tickets, which is the biggest revenue stream for most musicians.

      In short, going independent is a sure way to not make much money.

      The entire music industry is a cartel, much like the DeBeers diamond cartel. Like DeBeers has with diamonds, they have near complete control over the production and distribution of their product. This allows them to manipulate both supply and demand, which in turn, allows them to sell their product for more than it would be worth in a truly open market. Because of the control they have over every aspect of music production and distribution, third parties are not able to make much money selling music unless they join the cartel.

      Currently the music industry is trying to further limit distribution of their product via DRM. This further increases the profit margins because consumers cannot resell their DRM locked music, like they can used tapes or CDs. DeBeers has done a similar thing - though by different means (obviously you can't put DRM on a diamond), and been very successful at it over the last century.

      I know the DeBeers/Music Industry analogy isn't perfect, by DeBeers is the most successful cartel ever so I imagine every cartel looks to it for "inspiration".

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    10. Re:I don't believe their data by Sique · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Simply put, the user is too dumb to realize they even have a problem, let alone link it to DRM. Nobody knows what DRM even is, there is no awareness at all. 'nuff said. Do you actually think the customers call support and tell them: "I have an incompatibility between the used DRM on file ABC and player XYZ, because the used DRM Coding BlaFasel v1.04.02 is not recognized by the player firmware 2.42!" If they had a clue like this they wouldn't call support in the first place.

      No. The statistics come from the resolution put into the support ticket. And those resolution was found by the support people probably after lengthy discussions with the customer to find out what actual release of which software player he was using, what make of hardware player he bought, how to update it, which DRM version of which music file finally got running on which configuration.
      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    11. Re:I don't believe their data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Simply put, the user is too dumb to realize they even have a problem"

      I bet when the music doesn't play they realize they have a problem.

    12. Re:I don't believe their data by cyberchondriac · · Score: 1

      I think this especially rings true today where DAWs are commonplace (ProTools, Cubase, etc..) and the Internet is an effective medium to distribute music.
      The model is changing, or at least, it should be. Eventually, record companies will either go bye-byes, or merge into movie production houses where blockbuster movies are still ventures that can't be done on a shoe string budget, consistently. Maybe some year even the movie studios will go bye-byes too, depending on how graphics tech and hardware continue to evolve, with all virtual actors and voices.

      --

      Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
    13. Re:I don't believe their data by DrBdan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If they go independant
      ...


      I would agree with everything that you said if you change the word "go" to "start". As people have already stated it is very difficult for a new band to get access to equipment, recording time, media exposure etc without the help of a label. That is a large part of why new bands usually jump at the chance to join a label.

      On the other hand there are a number of large bands that could potentially go independent now and do just fine. A prime example is Radiohead, who are in fact not in a contract right now but I bet when their new album is released it will get just as much hype as the last one. Of course the majority of bands aren't big enough to sustain a large fanbase without a big label or are locked into multi-album record deals, which is why the labels are able to take advantage of so many bands. That's my two cents at least.

    14. Re:I don't believe their data by hazem · · Score: 1

      Like DeBeers has with diamonds, they have near complete control over the production and distribution of their product. This allows them to manipulate both supply and demand,

      I definitely agree that their control over production and distribution allows them to manipulate supply. But I'm not sure I see it on the demand side. Sure, they can make ads to try and get people interested in diamonds, but I don't see how they have any more control over demand than a non-cartel.

      Am I missing something?

    15. Re:I don't believe their data by toadlife · · Score: 1

      Marketing is a powerful tool for manipulating demand. DeBeers did it by convincing people that diamonds were rare (they are not) and that "Diamonds are forever", i.e. you shouldn't resell a diamond. The music industry does it via their stranglehold on distribution and marketing channels. In the case of music for most people, the vast majority, if not all music that they want it fed to them via traditional marketing channels like radio stations and music channels. Really shitty music can become popular if you play it enough.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    16. Re:I don't believe their data by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What would you do to change the situation, to break up the recording industry cartel?

    17. Re:I don't believe their data by equex256 · · Score: 1

      * Their music will *never* be played on mainstream radio ("payola", though in more subtle forms, is very much alive today)
      * Their videos will never be played on Music Channels like mTV
      * Their CDs will never be sold in major music stores


      If more artists goes indy, especially as more artists starting out, that has been exposed the the whole 'intarweb' thing, radio & TV's will be left with old stuff on old record contracts that old people without internet experience can listen to and buy in "legacy shops".

      or sold on major online retailers.
      * As a result of the aforementioned, they will never be able to to gain much exposure, and thus never be able to sell many concert tickets, which is the biggest revenue stream for most musicians.


      No, the entire thing will be decentralized and leave the middle men out. Everything, including online broadcasting will be happening online between artists and maybe their webmaster (who also announces the tourdates) and the internet savvy public doing it.

      The need for record companies, cigar-wielding managers, FM radios and TV's will disappear. (ofcourse to great panic in the established industry, wich is why all this DRM/RIAA stuff is happening)

    18. Re:I don't believe their data by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I don't think it would really cost that much to make an album. Most people wouldn't care about the quality if the music is good. Studio time is expensive, but if you priced your music cheaper according to the quality, you should be able to make pretty good money at it. Let's say you sell an albums worth of songs for $5. And lets say you sell them on the internet. Let's say you sell them online in MP3 format. Assuming you sell 10,000 copies, that's $50,000 in your pocket. Minus expenses, which if you record the music in your garage, and pay your monthly hosting fee of $7.95, then you've made quite a bit of money. And that's not even counting money made from performances.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    19. Re:I don't believe their data by Dave+Walker · · Score: 1

      * Their videos will never be played on Music Channels like mTV

      MTV is playing music again? When'd that start?

    20. Re:I don't believe their data by toadlife · · Score: 2, Insightful

      An established artist going independent still entails a certain risk. Why go independent when you have the leverage to sign contracts that are more favorable to you, and still get all the benefits of belonging the cartel?

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    21. Re:I don't believe their data by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Seems a number of local bands I know are making a decent living, but it's not quite Gene Simmons type stuff. The difference is that the system you support has a few HUGE stars, and no one actually works for a living. The one I'm a fan of has musicians actually playing music to make money, just like all of us having to work to make money, day in and day out. You do your job well, entertain people, and they will reward you. If not, learn how long to leave the fries in before they burn. It's a self-adjusting system, and works pretty well on the whole.

    22. Re:I don't believe their data by Lifyre · · Score: 1

      In rebuttal for pretty much everything you've said I respond with 2 words. You Tube (.com) Shit even my little sister was making fun of you. I now return you to your regularly scheduled and hopefully more intelligent program.

      --
      I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
    23. Re:I don't believe their data by mackyrae · · Score: 1

      You find an indie label. They're all over the place. Fat Wreck Chords, Anti-Flag Records, Aardvark Records, No Cover Productions, Overground Records, Clear Blue Records, whatever. Or you pay for time in a recording studio yourself, and sell the tracks at 75 cents each with no DRM, make your own cds and sell those...the same way ANY independent band does it! Why would you need $250,000 for recording? You don't have to buy the stuff, just rent the room and record it. Some indie production studios want you to get the best sound you can and charge per song instead of per hour.

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    24. Re:I don't believe their data by mackyrae · · Score: 1

      Reel Big Fish were dumped by Jive because they weren't making any money (geez guys, maybe if you actually promoted them in some way they would), so they said good riddance and recorded a live album called Our Live Album is Better Than Your Live Album, and did all that stuff the label wasn't doing for them. For the first time in a decade, they had an ad in a magazine! AFI was told by the owner of Nitro Records (I forgot his name now) that they were getting too big for the label (predicted how big the 6th album would be--not hard, the 5th went gold and hit the charts immediately, for someone on an indie label that's good) so they released them from the label and told them to find a label that could handle the volume of sales (they picked DreamWorks because they agreed not to give the band orders about what to do to their sound).

      --
      look! it's a bird, it's a plane, it's....a girl? yes, a girl browsing Slashdot on Linux
    25. Re:I don't believe their data by unitron · · Score: 1

      If not, learn how long to leave the fries in before they burn. It's a self-adjusting system, and works pretty well on the whole.

      Then why are french fries served underdone almost everywhere?

      --

      I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

    26. Re:I don't believe their data by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Because people fail at being fry cooks as often as they fail at being musicians

    27. Re:I don't believe their data by Reziac · · Score: 1

      It's not that the users goes "The DRM won't let me play it!" As you say, most have no idea that DRM is involved at all.

      Rather, the average user goes "Why won't your fucking file work on my computer? What's wrong with you people? What a ripoff!" And then tech support gets to waste time and money trying to help them work around the problem.

      I vaugely recall reading that the average tech support call costs the average company a total of around $2/minute (most of which is infrastructure and overhead, not the tech's wages). Even were the cost just a few cents per minute, it still only takes a few minutes per sale to completely negate the retailer's profit margin on a sale as small as a piece of music.

      And if 3/4ths of their calls are generated by issues with DRM -- that's a needless expense they'd rather do without.

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  8. Could be a way to protest DRM by thewils · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Phone for support, act dumb. Drive that 75% up to 95%. If the cost of providing support exceeds revenue, maybe DRM will be dropped.

    --
    Once I was a four stone apology. Now I am two separate gorillas.
    1. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by MrLeap · · Score: 0

      That seems like a pretty misleading way to protest. You might want to consider being ashamed of yourself.

    2. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by cliffski · · Score: 1

      If the RIAA stooped to such stupid tactics, it would be slashdot front page news OMG LOOK AT TEH MAFIAAAAAAAA for the next 6 months.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    3. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Americano · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Phone for support, act dumb. Drive that 75% up to 95%. If the cost of providing support exceeds revenue, maybe DRM will be dropped.

      How is this informative? If you want to succeed in driving online music sales out of existence, which will in turn cause the RIAA to scream even more about piracy, and start slapping even more people with lawsuits, then great.

      How about, if you don't like DRM, you don't purchase music from artists & labels which support DRM? Shift that money to indie labels & independent artists that don't use DRM, and suddenly you'll see small labels become much more influential. You can drive a wedge into the recording industry associations by spending your money on labels that do business in a way you agree with; fucking over the resellers and driving them out of business is not the way to reach any desirable end state.

      I don't care if Jessica Simpson is offering to personally give you a hummer for every DRM'ed track you buy... if DRM (or more precisely, the lack of it) is important to you, then don't buy it .
    4. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by greginnj · · Score: 1

      That seems like a pretty misleading way to protest. You might want to consider being ashamed of yourself.

      Considering ... considering .... done! Nope, I'm not ashamed of myself.

      Just out of curiosity, have you contacted the RIAA and suggested that they might want to be ashamed of themselves for randomly proposing settlement fees to people who haven't even violated DRM?
      --
      Read the best of all of Slash: seenonslash.com
    5. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by geekoid · · Score: 1

      Man, the replies to your post really show how the art of the effective protest is gone.

      Not buying won't work. The demographic of people who won't buy is small enough and easy enough to chalk up to 'lost sale due to piracy'.

      The people with the real power are:
      A)The group that get signed. They could make 'no drm' as part of the contract.
      B)retails who buy the discs for resale. If they say 'no DRM' it would go away as well.

      Both theose group nede to relize the labels need THEM, not the other way around.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    6. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Jtheletter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that the labels will see lower sales (from people buying indie labels/bands) and still scream "piracy is eating our profits!", so there needs to be an added step of not buying DRM'd music and telling the RIAA labels at the same time so they know WHY they lost a sale. Plus it's a non-solution for people who actually like a particular artist. Yes, a lot of mainstream RIAA-label music is pop crap, but some of the artists are worth listening to, so what do you do if you still want music from $ARTIST but still want to vote with your dollars? (leaving out the argument about how this wouldn't then be a boycott, but not everyone wants to do a wholesale boycott) The parent poster's solution was actually not that bad in that respect. You buy the music you want, but make it clear to the distributor, and therefore eventually the label, that you are not pleased with the DRM by harrowing their support with DRM related questions. Then the distributor sees their support costs going up from DRM, and tell the labels that DRM sucks.

      The more pessismistic view is that there will always be enough ignorant or indifferent consumers of RIAA music that a personal boycott, even with telling the labels your reasons, will have little effect because of the huge number of consumers who don't care and will buy anyway. It's not enough in this situation to just not buy RIAA music, you have to make it affect their bottom line, and in such a way that they can't ignore/hype it as "economic effects of piracy". Driving up costs that are tied to specific metrics (aka can't be written off to piracy) like tech support is one good way to get the message across. To keep up the boycott aspect for those willing to do so, buy it, pursue support, then return it stating clearly your reasons for doing so.

      --
      -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
    7. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Corporations have no shame, why should we give them that advantage?

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    8. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by slashdotusername · · Score: 1

      ...or support will be dropped.

    9. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Americano · · Score: 1

      Except that the labels will see lower sales (from people buying indie labels/bands) and still scream "piracy is eating our profits!"

      Which they still have to prove to sue people. If you have no music from the artists on that label on your computer, that's going to be pretty hard. Not to mention the fact that other indie labels reporting record profits will make it pretty hard to convince anybody with half a brain that piracy is rampant, and is destroying the entire recording industry. But even in spite of this point, I do agree -- telling the labels why they're losing a sale is quite important. Write a letter, make a call, sign a petition, by all means.

      Plus it's a non-solution for people who actually like a particular artist. Yes, a lot of mainstream RIAA-label music is pop crap, but some of the artists are worth listening to, so what do you do if you still want music from $ARTIST but still want to vote with your dollars?

      Then your principled stand for buying DRM-free music is not a principled stand. You're telling the record labels, "Well, I don't like DRM, but I *really* love this song, so I'll stomach the DRM you want to ram down my throat just this once." You tell the labels it's okay to do that, and you tell the artists that it's okay to sign to labels that do this. The point of this is, "How to get rid of DRM." If you want to get rid of DRM, and not just whine about it endlessly on /., you start by hitting the labels where it hurts: their bottom line. You refuse to support artists that sign to labels which refuse to release DRM-free tracks. I don't care if it's the second coming of Jimmy Page, you tell him, "Hey sorry, if you were selling your music DRM-free, I'd buy it. Until then, sorry... great music, enjoy hearing it on the radio, but until it's DRM-free, you won't get a cent out of me."

      What you're proposing as a way of getting rid of DRM is pointless, because the MUSIC STORES DON'T CONTROL THE DRM. THE LABELS DICTATE THE TERMS. All you will succeed in doing is putting distributors out of business. And what the recording industry will do with THAT tidbit will be to trumpet, "Ha, see? They tried selling DRM-free music, and it wasn't a viable business model!"

      The more pessismistic view is that there will always be enough ignorant or indifferent consumers of RIAA music that a personal boycott, even with telling the labels your reasons, will have little effect because of the huge number of consumers who don't care and will buy anyway.

      Quite possibly. But if YOU are buying your music DRM-free, and helping to support a separate musical ecosystem in which songs are sold without DRM, why should you care if other people are ignorant and indifferent to the fine nuance of DRM policy? You can evangelize all you want, and I think it's a good idea... but if at the end of the day, you're not encumbered by DRM, why do you care? Don't support companies that do business in ways you don't approve of. If you're worried about endangered dolphins, you don't buy tuna from companies that don't practice dolphin-safe fishing, regardless of how much you like tuna, and you spread your message to the people around you in the hopes that they will be as equally motivated. It's really that simple.

      To keep up the boycott aspect for those willing to do so, buy it, pursue support, then return it stating clearly your reasons for doing so.

      So let me see if I've got this straight -- buy the music, giving the record company & distributor a chunk of cash -- in effect, a short term loan they don't have to pay interest on. Harass the distributor with spurious questions about DRM, and then "return" the music and demand your money back in a huff? Who's out more -- you, the distributor, or the record label? I'd say you've lost the most because of the simple amount of time it will take you to do this, and you still don't have the song you

    10. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "Which they still have to prove to sue people"

      They have to prove it to _win_ a lawsuit, not to file one, and in civil suits, "proof" is simply a preponderance of evidence, not the "beyond reasonable doubt" of criminal law. If your main goal is intimidating people, then the act of filing a lawsuit may be more than sufficient, especially if their lawyer tells them that it will cost significantly more to fight the case than accept the proffered settlement.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    11. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by jonadab · · Score: 1

      > Which they still have to prove to sue people.

      Umm, not very familiar with the legal system, are you. You don't have to prove *anything* to sue somebody. Once you have already filed the lawsuit, then the court asks you to present evidence, but if you don't have any, you can just drag your feet until the defense runs out of money to pay their lawyers, and then you can force them to settle or, if they refuse, drive them to bankruptcy with legal expenses.

      The only time this doesn't work is if the defense can actually afford *more* money for lawyers than you can (see, for instance, SCO versus IBM).

      --
      Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
    12. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Jtheletter · · Score: 1

      Before I get into this response I should preface this all with the fact that I don't buy any music unless it's from a band at their concert, and even that is a rarity these days as I'm so busy. I haven't bought a CD from a store since about 2001, and I get most of my new music from indie artists on the Web like MC Frontalot and the occassional track from songfight.com. And while I loathe DRM and its negative consumer effects, and the general anti-consumer and monopolistic practices of the RIAA labels, I'm not on any sort of declared boycott of their products. In practice then, I'm already not supporting them, so let's not get personal in this conversation and start basing arguments on what you think my actions are or are not. I'm going to play devil's advocate in my arguments even though I think we're both agreeing to a large extent. Partly because I love playing devil's advocate, someone has to, and partly because I think a lot of the arguments against DRM/RIAA presented here leave out a lot of edge cases that are relevent to how this all plays out in the real world. OK, that said, here's some thoughts in response to your post.

      Which they still have to prove to sue people. If you have no music from the artists on that label on your computer, that's going to be pretty hard.
      You got a bit off topic here, for once we're not talking about the P2P lawsuits, however as others have pointed out, they don't need any more evidence than an IP address to bring a suit against you, which immediately places a financial threat of a couple thousand dollars (in lawyer fees or settlement) on the defedant. My point was that w/o informing the RIAA why they are losing sales they will announce more losses from piracy. This isn't something that is done without intention or effect on their part, it is in fact the justification they have already used before to go to congress and get anticonsumer legislation like the DMCA passed. The numbers were inflated and laughable then, but the representatives bought it anyway, why would it be any different in round 2, 3, 4? Congress has yet to demonstrate that they are onto the RIAA's game here, if the industry whines about more losses to "piracy" and has lower sales numebrs with handwaving backing up the reasons, I'm inclined to think they will still be believed, just like the first time. That's the danger, they will use the lower sales numbers to justify more restrictive laws/regulations unless other data points to obvious alternative explanations.

      Then your principled stand for buying DRM-free music is not a principled stand.
      See, this is the part of the conversation that doesn't actually apply directly to ME. I'm neither taking a stand, nor being hypocritical since I parenthetically pointed out in my original point that I understood that someone buying from even one RIAA artist would technically NOT be making a boycott. So we're on the same page here. But what I was getting at was one of those real world cases. Avg Joe may decide he's against DRM, but even before DRM was an issue he really like Arty McGee who was and still is on some RIAA label. Now, let's also suppose that Arty McGee is under contract and short of financially destroying himself, can't break ties with the label for a couple more albums. That's the reality, and where it becomes a problem to tell people "simple, just boycott". The artist is stuck, so they can't listen to their fans votes against DRM without breaking their contract, and the fans were fans before this whole DRM thing pitted them against their favorite artist. In my experience most people aren't willing to do a proper boycott, it's just not enough of an issue for them. And even if they are willing to do so, they're weak willed and still want to get music from their favorite artist, they're stuck. Those are the people we need to get in on this fight, there needs to be a critical mass of consumers, even if all the slashdot readers executed a perfect RIAA boycott - which I think functionally many of us already do - it wouldn't be eno

      --
      -- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
    13. Re:Could be a way to protest DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't I just buy the track for the hummer, then phone in and complain about the DRM later? Please? A hummer for the price of a music track is pretty hard to pass up...

  9. Apple iTunes by interiot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So why doesn't Apple do this? They talk the talk, saying they think DRM is harmful, yet all of their music is DRM'd, even from artists who don't want their music to be. And the article also says Musicload did this specifically because it's in heavy competition with iTunes, and thought it would give them an advantage (which it has). So when will Apple step up and allow specific artists to go DRM-free too?

    1. Re:Apple iTunes by robinsonne · · Score: 1, Insightful

      So when will Apple step up and allow specific artists to go DRM-free too?

      Right after Apple allows interoperability between their other products and other manufacturers'.

    2. Re:Apple iTunes by interiot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Setting up the technical and support structures for interoperability is a huge deal though, and it's not the sort of thing you can try on a limited basis, or back out of shortly after, without pissing off a lot of people and organizations who have put a lot of effort into setting up new code and new organizational structures.

      On the other hand, allowing selected tracks to go DRM-free is less of a big deal. It probably requires some code changes to iTunes, and requires some legal discussions with the specific artists and their labels, but it's easy to do for a small set of tracks, and they can always back out if they want to.

      So, if Apple does steadfastly refuses to take even the smallest steps towards removing DRM for a few select tracks, then that means Apple's exhortations on the downsides of DRM was either hot air, or just another chess move as part of the back-room negotiations with the music companies (along the lines of Viacom suing YouTube).

    3. Re:Apple iTunes by geekoid · · Score: 1, Informative

      or maybe they just don't want to breach there contract and have the labels pull all the music?

      naw, must be some huge conspiracy.

      If you note, the article says are pulling DRM from indie music. Apple wants to sell popular music. Two different beasts.

      Steve Jobs had no reason to say he wants to get rid of DRM if it wasn't true.

      I would also like to point out that any company that includes IN THE PRODUCT a way to bypass DRM really isn't a fan of DRM.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    4. Re:Apple iTunes by interiot · · Score: 1

      From TFA:

      iTunes Store does not offer DRM-free music despite the fact that many artists have requested it

      iTunes does carry indie music, so Apple does have lots of people they can negotiate with without the major labels getting in the way. For instance, all of CDBaby's catalog is available on iTunes. [1] [2]

    5. Re:Apple iTunes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However, if you were a soulless avaricious executive, and insisted on DRM, you'd want to insist on all stores selling DRM'd music. You wouldn't want your DRM-infested music sitting next to music without DRM. It'd clue people in that DRM isn't necessary, and isn't good for them.

    6. Re:Apple iTunes by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      So when will Apple step up and allow specific artists to go DRM-free too?

      When the major labels cease to require it. Until then, those artists and labels are free to sell DRM-free elsewhere. In fact, it's rather hypocritical to continue selling through iTunes if you're opposed to DRM on your music, but people do it. Without the major labels, Apple doesn't have much reason to expend the effort to segregate their sales.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    7. Re:Apple iTunes by dr.badass · · Score: 1

      Apple does have lots of people they can negotiate with

      Apple doesn't "negotiate" with indie labels. There is one deal, take it or leave it. That deal is largely defined by what Apple negotiated with the majors. Right now, and for the foreseeable future, that deal includes DRM.

      --
      Don't become a regular here -- you will become retarded.
    8. Re:Apple iTunes by Stinking+Pig · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Because, in the immortal words of Al Franken, they're lying liars who lie. They're getting called out for their monopolistic behavior in the EU, and they're pointing the finger at someone else while they squeeze another few years of lock-in out of the folks who buy in to the system. DRM will be removed from iTunes when an external force makes it happen, and then Steve Jobs or his replacement will play the saint and parade his "great achievement" all over the news.

      --
      "Nothing was broken, and it's been fixed." -- Jon Carroll
    9. Re:Apple iTunes by Builder · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Steve Jobs LIED in that article. He sells music today WITH DRM that the artists are quite happy to have sold without DRM (as evidenced by sales elsewhere).

      Steve Jobs has a very good reason to say that he wants to get rid of DRM... multiple european countries considering sanctioning his products here.

      The guy is a major part of Disney now, and Pixar before that. He's been massively into DRM for a lot longer than just the iTunes store lifetime.

  10. Going Out on a Limb by asphaltjesus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    And stating this isn't directly the entertainment conglomerates fault. It's a disingenuous game for sure.

    I think the Entertainment conglomerates can plausibly claim at the PHB level, "there's no DRM standard and that's not our fault." This way they can maintain chaos and gain total control of the digital distribution channel when they pick a winner.

    It also means that whoever is making these DRM schemes has to do a really good job creating code that has _lots_ of error condition controls. Which I just don't see anyone doing.

    The end game is the media conglomerates to win unless the copyright law is meaningfully overhauled.

    --
    Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
    1. Re:Going Out on a Limb by geekoid · · Score: 1

      End Game media conglamorates loose.

      No DRM can be effective. So they acn pick a 'winner', but then an hour later it will be cracked.

      Copyright is changing. The laws aren't changing, but less and less people put up with it. You can have all the copyright laws in the world, if enough of the people break them, then it is, in effect, gone.

      The new defacto copyright will be all about whats worth the bother to put on line.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
  11. used CDs work by digitaldc · · Score: 5, Funny

    I have given up on downloaded music these days, if I really like a band I'll buy a new or used CD, and definitely never use iTunes.

    Next thing you know, we'll be getting out the microphone and rip a song right from the loudspeakers - oldskool.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:used CDs work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Why on earth you'd wanna use a microphone and speaker? Sheesh all you need is a jack => jack cable anyhow. No matter how hardd copyprotection is hard to crack all you need is a ghettoblaster and a inline on your soundcard. For what? 2-4£ you can copy anything.

    2. Re:used CDs work by neomunk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, see, the whole point of modern DRM is that a signal can't GET to a regular old audio-out jack without being downgraded significantly. It's the whole "Trusted Computing" thing. You'll have digital bits screaming out of that jack, and you can't make any sense of it (without cracking it, which is illegal, in the U.S. at least). Only after it's actually INSIDE the speaker itself can it be trusted to be turned back into a real audio waveform, and only if the speaker (and every other piece of hardware in between it and the source) checks itself out regularly to make sure there aren't any unexpected voltage drops or other signs that could be indicative of a tapped line somewhere.

      It's completely obnoxious in both scale and obtrusiveness, technologically speaking.

      And WE get to pay for it! Don't we all feel warm and fuzzy now, knowing we're paying for people to protect themselves from us. God knows -I- can't be trusted with something as powerful as a nsync album, and I should have to pay to make sure that very complicated steps are being taken to make absolutely SURE I don't do anything dangerous with that music-like-abomination.

  12. Deutsche Telekom interest in DRM? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Musicload is owned by Deutsche Telekom, who also own T-Mobile USA.

    T-Mobile USA won't support non-DRM'd media out of the box (for ringtones!). I think a couple executives (and a few board members) are going to have to have a conference call and try to figure out DT's position on DRM.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    1. Re:Deutsche Telekom interest in DRM? by Dog-Cow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Leaving aside the idea that different companies, even when owned by the same parent, may have different views, there is no contradiction here at all. For T-Mobile, DRM is making them money. For Musicload, it costs them money. You are thinking in terms of whether DRM itself is bad or good. Businesses don't. All they care about is how DRM affects *their* bottom line.

    2. Re:Deutsche Telekom interest in DRM? by RingDev · · Score: 1

      And hopefully in response to any attempt to force DRMs on their sales DT will spam David Hasselhoff's latest album to all of their voice mail boxes.

      -Rick

      --
      "Most people in the U.S. wouldn't know they live in a tyrannical state if it walked up and grabbed their junk." - MyFirs
    3. Re:Deutsche Telekom interest in DRM? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      All they care about is how DRM affects *their* bottom line.
      Right. And parent companies have to consider whether their subsidiaries' activities negatively impact other units' profitability.

      T-Mobile not supporting non-DRM'd music may increase support expenses at Musicload, as customers try to buy newly available non-DRM'd music at Musicload and experience problems. A CBA would determine if the support for those customers is cheaper than the increased profits from sales of DRM'd music; if not, then these subsidiaries should figure out a better way to work together.

      This is an example of the opposite of syngergy -- we have here two parts whose total value is less than the sum of each part.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    4. Re:Deutsche Telekom interest in DRM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      which is strange, b/c i have tmobile, and currently use a plain old mp3 as a ringtone.
      maybe not the carrier, but the phone? if the phone doesn;t support mp3, then damn sure it won't be able to use an mp3 ringtone..

  13. Pass the cost on by gelfling · · Score: 4, Funny

    Make the media more expensive. Drive out your own customers. Complain there aren't enough people in the known world to sue. Lather rinse repeat.

    1. Re:Pass the cost on by IvanTheNotSoBad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This really should be modded insightful instead of funny. It appears to be the actual business plan of a lot of these companies.

  14. Worked for me, entirely by accident. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1) I buy CD from Amazon.

    2) CD turns up, but is an "enhanced" CD.

    3) The first CD I try it in (an old Redhat PC) doesn't recognise anything. The second (Windows XP) shows only something like "playme.exe", which I unsurprisingly decline to run.

    4) I complain to Amazon, asking where the music is.

    5) Amazon (it appears) don't actually read the email but send a replacement

    Obviously I could have gone back to (4) again, except that in the meantime I'd found a PC that recognised it (more recent Linux distribution). I gave the duplicate to a friend.

  15. Mein Gott! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Musicload's offerings are in WMA

    DRM'd and sonically inferior? I can see why their customers are unhappy.

  16. "Music Load" by Aqua+OS+X · · Score: 1

    By all accounts I really should have some sort of semen related "Music Load" joke, but I can't think of one at the moment.

    --
    "Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
    1. Re:"Music Load" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Then I guess you've blown it.

    2. Re:"Music Load" by delinear · · Score: 1

      Maybe throw in some reference to Ballmer squirting his music load at random females... I dunno, I'm punned out, too.

  17. 3 of 4 because of DRM by Tanuki64 · · Score: 1

    Fine, it was to be expected that DRM causes trouble. But what causes the other 25% of the support calls, which are not related to DRM? The DRM problems are easy to solve, just drop DRM. The other 25% are much more interesting and knowing them might help improve usability.

  18. That's a huge deal. by geekoid · · Score: 1

    the label can talk all they want, but the bottom line is: "If the labels customers(retailers) don't buy their product, they go out of business.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:That's a huge deal. by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      That's very true. The retailers want it both ways, too. They want unencumbered product to reduce costs, but they also want the product the big labels market because that's where the money is.

      Thing is, they don't really have that much leverage against the labels because the labels have a monopoly on their products. You can't just go somewhere else and pay for the latest Beyonce hit like you can go buy corn or beef. Right now the retailers would prefer no DRM, because they think that would make them the most money. Labels want DRM because they think that's how they will make the most - and no amount of whining by the retailers is going to change their minds if they keep getting checks at the end of the month.

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
  19. #1 question by geekoid · · Score: 1

    How do I fit the cd AND my coffee cup in the holder?

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:#1 question by Tanuki64 · · Score: 1

      Ok, if this question is asked more often, than only sell slot-in drives. Problem solved. ;-)

  20. While the story is about DRM'ed music... by 93+Escort+Wagon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am often surprised at how few people realize their DVD player's "problems" are, more often than not, related to Macrovision's content protection. I suppose technically it is an issue with the DVD player, since it's not handling the Macrovision stuff gracefully; but by and large the general public just seems to think that DVD players suck - and they blame the hardware manufacturer rather than the MPAA.

    DRM needs to die. Its only real-world impact is to inconvenience those of us who try to do things legally - certainly the pirates aren't being overly inhibited.

    --
    #DeleteChrome
  21. Ah, but who decides an album is done? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The record label.

    IIRC this is what happened to George Michael.

    If you're in for 4 albums and the first/two is/are good but you don't fit the coming demographic they don't want to let you go but they can make more money for less with someone else. So they have you record tracks for an album. The tracks won't "work" as an album, so more have to be done. But there's problems with getting your time booked. We'll sort it out. More tracks. More criticism and "please go and do better" and more blocks on booking time.

    You're still waiting for your third and fourth album so you can move on. You may even get your third one out, but you'll never get to release your 4th. You're more valuable being kept away from the competition than you cost to keep hanging on.

  22. Yet another reason to pirate by gekoscan · · Score: 0

    I mean, nothing is simpler than just downloading the song you want. =) Until the musicians all get on mySpace and I can pay them directly, I will continue to pirate. RIAA death.

  23. Ah, naturally. by alisson · · Score: 1

    Apple doesn't "get it" because it's lawyers are perpetually concerned with annoying little flies, such as the RIAA, pulling their entire stock. What sillies, we all know the RIAA never wins cases! /sarcasm
    (Or was it?)

    1. Re:Ah, naturally. by adah · · Score: 1

      What sillies, we all know the RIAA never wins cases!

      RIAA even does not need to win! Letting people know that it is suing old ladies may make people hate it, but also make people fear it.

  24. FNAC also sells unprotected music by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, they are not the only ones. FNAC in france ( http://www.fnac.com/ ) already offers a pretty large catalog of unprotected MP3 music downloads, in addition to its standard DRM enabled WMA files. It seems that DRM is dying a painfull and slow death (not that any of this is relevant after DRM got cracked)...

  25. Proof that DRM is Good For The Economy(tm) by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

    Think of all of those (foreign) Customer Support personnel who will be thrown out of work when their company drops DRM. If it wasn't for DRM they'd be begging on the streets for the money to buy supper (not to mention music CDs).

    --
    Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    1. Re:Proof that DRM is Good For The Economy(tm) by jZnat · · Score: 1

      You do know that's just an example of the broken window fallacy, right?

      --
      'Yes, firefox is indeed greater than women. Can women block pops up for you? No. Can Firefox show you naked women? Yes.'
    2. Re:Proof that DRM is Good For The Economy(tm) by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

      You do know that that's just a joke, right?

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
  26. DRM or Windows? by Orig_Club_Soda · · Score: 0

    I say its Windows/MS that is to blame. We need Apple and Sony's tech call records.

  27. emusic.com is already DRM free by RogerWiclo · · Score: 1

    I just subscribed to http://emusic.com/. EVERYTHING they sell is DRM free, everything is sold as MP3. You can sign up for a trial and down load 25 songs. If you don't like it and cancel with in 2 weeks you get to keep the 25 songs for free. If you do like it keep your subscription. For $10 a month you get 30 songs. That's less then 35 cents per song, a third that cost of other online stores.

    That's the good news. The bad news is that you won't find many major labels because major labels won't allow their songs to be sold in MP3 format. However, from over 2 million songs to look through, it didn't take me long to max out my downloads.

    If you do sign up you can also find free tracks. For example, this 2 disk album with 38 songs will not count against your downloads http://www.emusic.com/album/10992/10992865.html/

  28. Also, pirated versions are always superior by Von+Rex · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not only are the pirates proceeding full speed, the pirated media is superior to the original and hence more valuable. Examples:

    Music -- No DRM, can play anywhere, any number of times, no restrictions.

    Movies -- You can copy only the main movie so it starts up immediately without the need to even touch any controls. No menus, no half a dozen previews, no FBI or MPAA warnings. And absolutely nothing, anywhere, that is "unskippable".

    Games -- No CD checks. No hunting through your house to find a CD just so you can play an old game that's already fully installed. No losing your purchase because the disk is damaged.

    So, the current option offered to people who want to be legit is to buy overpriced stuff that's a pain in the ass to use and isn't as functional as the free pirate versions. What a surprise that so many people opt out of that deal.

  29. Protest to your local retailer by Reziac · · Score: 1

    If the RIAA listens to ANYONE, it will be to their retail distributors. And from what I know of the local-retail-music business, that's damn little already, tho still more than they listen to end users. And the RIAA can't very well accuse their retail outlets of being dirty internet pirates.

    So... If local retailers stop carrying RIAA/DRM'd music, that sends a much louder message than anything that consumers, even collectively, could manage. And local retailers DO listen to their customers, because otherwise pretty soon they don't have any.

    So instead of telling the faceless RIAA cartel (who couldn't care less what you think) why you no longer buy their product, tell your local retailer that you'd really like to buy $ALBUM, but you won't so long as it's DRM'd. THEN BUY SOME UNENCUMBERED MUSIC FROM THAT LOCAL RETAILER, so your favourite retailer sees that you're not just a cheapskate, you're really willing to buy good products, when they exist.

    --
    ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?