Slashdot Mirror


Why the Semantic Web Will Fail

Jack Action writes "A researcher at Canada's National Research Council has a provocative post on his personal blog predicting that the Semantic Web will fail. The researcher notes the rising problems with Web 2.0 — MySpace blocking outside widgets, Yahoo ending Flickr identities, rumors Google will turn off its search API — and predicts these will also cripple Web 3.0." From the post: "The Semantic Web will never work because it depends on businesses working together, on them cooperating. There is no way they: (1) would agree on web standards (hah!) (2) would adopt a common vocabulary (you don't say) (3) would reliably expose their APIs so anyone could use them (as if)."

179 comments

  1. Far out! by neonmonk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thank God for Web4.1!

    1. Re:Far out! by Threni · · Score: 3, Funny

      > Thank God for Web4.1!

      Software development is getting worse. x.1 of anything is as bad as 1.0 used to be. You'd be advised to wait for Web4.2 or at the very least Web4.1 Service Pack 1.

    2. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Part of the reason that software development is getting worse is because of all the layering that is being done these days.

      Yes, some degree of abstraction and layering is necessary when developing software. But it must be kept to a sane level. These layers must be developed, ideally, by the very same people or project group, to help ensure a certain level of quality. And sometimes when our layering tower gets too tall, we need to kick out the middle.

      Take a typical Web site today. It involves HTML and JavaScript, which is displayed by a web browser. If you're using a browser like Firefox, your web page is in turn displayed via XUL. XUL runs on top of the Gecko rendering engine. Gecko runs on top of a toolkit like GTK+. GTK+ runs on top of GDK and GLib. GDK runs on top of Xlib. Xlib runs on top of C standard library and the underlying operating system. Only now do we get anywhere near the actual hardware.

      So we end up with an extremely tall serial tower, where failure occurs if even just one component runs into trouble. The Semantic Web is partially susceptible to this sort of a problem, too. Look at its technology stack. If any one of the libraries that implements such functionality fails, your whole Semantic Web stack fails.

    3. Re:Far out! by JackMeyhoff · · Score: 1

      No, the main reason is reinvention of the wheel and too many egos and managemnet want more in less time with less people and its a BLUE COLLAR JOB, its not rocket science anymore, its like building a house, get over yourself.

      --
      http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
    4. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I beg to differ, the problem is that it is indeed a white collar job, but put in the hands of blue collars like cheap monkeys on typewriters (hence the result).
      It may not be rocket science, but it still is pure logic.
      And casual people and logic don't mix very well.

    5. Re:Far out! by alexwcovington · · Score: 2, Funny

      Except Google, where everything is in permanent Beta!

      --
      (It's never too late to join the Renaissance)
    6. Re:Far out! by Dausha · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Personally, I'm holding out for Web 4.79.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    7. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So much for that Object reuse eh, like lego bricks was it? I say you are full of shit. We dont make things small and general enough to reuse we just keep building from the ground up because they are "techies" and must have gadgets and techie shit. Sorry, I beg to differ. I work for Microsoft and our stuff is shit for this very reason. Our commitments mean we have to "build" and build and create and build in order to get a good review, we cannot colloberate, thats not going to get our bonus!

    8. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'We dont make things small and general enough to reuse '
      Yes we do: that is called an API....
      And if you work at Microsoft, you are probably the one supposed to make those API, so yes YOU have to build and build and build those lego bricks for me....
      Guess you don't understand your own work..

    9. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Personally, I'll be happy when Web3.11 for Workgroups comes out.

    10. Re:Far out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) I dont work on SDK's, what I do is consume those API's, and 2) You have obviously no idea what its like to work with PM's, PUM's etc at MSFT

    11. Re:Far out! by bbtom · · Score: 1

      The Semantic Web layer cake isn't a technology stack per se. There are many ways of implementing each of the pieces in the layer cake.

      The following things are what I'd say are currently necessary: URI/IRI, XML and namespaces, the RDF model. Query has been implemented quite neatly with SPARQL but it doesn't require that one have ontologies already in place. Yes, ontology-aware SPARQLing is useful as it solves the Tower of Babel problem to some extent, but it's not necessary.

      How we get to Trust does not have to be through Signature and Encryption. For instance, OpenID as a part of the Semantic Web is something I'm very interested in, and I think will play an important part - certainly in the application I'm building.

      Dave Beckett puts it brilliantly:

      The semantic web is: a webby way to link data. That is all.
      Everything beyond that is entirely optional fluff: data vs metadata, syntaxes, ontologies, query languages, rules, logic, ...

      Also, a lot of the parts are fairly immune to breaking. URIs don't 'break' that easily. I can't quite imagine what the alternative would be. The whole thing written in C? Maybe Assembly? Doesn't solve the design goal... :)

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    12. Re:Far out! by inKubus · · Score: 1

      Thank God for Web4.1!

      You, sir, have just coined a new "Slashdot Meme".

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
  2. So let me get this straight ... by kalidasa · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One of the problems is lack of standardization, and one of the symptoms is Yahoo! normalizing Flickr's user accounts with its own?

    1. Re:So let me get this straight ... by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      Lack of standards isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes it's easier to write your own protocol, then to write a standard protocol that could encompass all possible future uses. Working with things like EDI which attempt to standardize everything can make things more difficult than just working out at method that works for exactly what you need it to do.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    2. Re:So let me get this straight ... by asninn · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I was wondering about that as well. I like and use Flickr a lot, and Yahoo really hasn't changed it much; there are some things I dislike (the integration of the Organizr with Yahoo maps, for example, which are vastly inferior to Google maps both in terms of slickness and accuracy[1]), but I can understand why they want to consolidating "old-school" and newer Flickr accounts into one system instead of operating two different systems at the same time, and I have no idea how anyone could construe that to be an example of the alleged failure of the semantic web.

      Seriously - the semantic web doesn't even exist so far, and even if it did, what would the backend used for signing in to Flickr have to do with it? I just don't get it.

      1. YMMV if you're from the USA or Canada, but I'm not, and I can definitely say that Google Maps provides a much better experience for me.

      --
      butter the donkey
    3. Re:So let me get this straight ... by geoffspear · · Score: 1

      Yeah, they've "ended Flickr identities" by making you log in with a non-Flickr Yahoo account instead of your non-Flickr email address, while keeping the same Flickr username, URL, and photos. I know I feel my identity was wrested away from me. Web2.0 is dead, and I'm going to get my revenge by moving all of my crappy photos to a broken site with like 5 users. That'll show 'em!

      --
      Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
    4. Re:So let me get this straight ... by Larry+Lightbulb · · Score: 1

      Making your own protocol is only good for a on-off job with a limited and predetermined set of users; once you have to exchange data with a lot of systems you need to have a standard. When writing software to send data between suppliers and supermarkets I could look at the Tradacoms standard and be sure what fields were manditory, the type of data they held, the length, etc, and I didn't have to make a new version for each one.

    5. Re:So let me get this straight ... by Slightly+Askew · · Score: 1

      I had to read your first sentence several times before I realized that you meant "than" and not "then". A little justification for the spelling Nazis, as this post was somewhat incoherent due to the spelling error. Surprisingly, the sentence was still grammatically correct with the spelling error, which was probably the reason it took me a moment to catch it.

      --
      Public use of any portable music system is a virtually guaranteed indicator of sociopathic tendencies. -- Zoso
  3. It will fail for other reasons too by jrumney · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The semantic web will fail because it is too complex and noone outside the academic community working on it really understands it. The ad-hoc tagging systems and microformats Web 2.0 has brought are good enough for most people, and much simpler for the casual web developer to understand.

    1. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Jellybob · · Score: 1

      Web standards are doing a lot to create a semantic web without people having to think about it. We're fast moving from "this is a big red piece of text" to "this is a heading" thanks to CSS allowing us to state that headings should be big and red.

      I doubt we're ever going to be in a position where every site is marked up with RDF metadata, but a lot of sites are now offering APIs that are good enough to do the job, sure we're unlikely to have a universal API that allows us to query any website on the internet and extract the data we're looking for, but realistically what would that actually gain us?

      Services such as Froogle provide a bridge between your average e-commerce site with products listed on it, and microformats are going a long way towards allowing people to build sites that are semantic enough to do the job - for example, most people aren't interested in getting the About Us page of a corporate site, they just want the contact details.

      I think we're going to see a lot more almost-standards around the web, which provide a common way to mark up certain parts of a page, without having to go to the trouble of adding RDF metadata to everything that gets built.

    2. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by tbriggs6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Have you ever read the original presentation of work by Codd on relational databases? How about the RFC standards on TCP/IP? How about the original presentation and arguments on the inclusion of Interrupts in a processor? Boy, those were so easy to understand and obvious that they were even published at all. The process of science is to push the state of the art; which by definition is new and novel. This is the job of the computer science researcher. It is left to others to examine the research and reformulate in terms that mere mortals can understand. If you understand the concepts behind the OSI layers, Lambda expressions, or symmetric multi-processing, thank a computer science educator who abstracted and distilled the hell of the science and research and packaged in such a way that you can understand it and maybe even use it. To claim that failure is imminent because the current presentation of the Semantic Web is too complex is nonsense.

    3. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by steevc · · Score: 1

      Since I first read about the semantic web a few years back I've been hoping that some of it's ideas would take off. I've created my own FOAF file, but it's only recently that a couple of geek friends have created theirs that I can link to. I know a few social network sites generate these, but they may not be able to link to people outside that network. The project site does not seem to have been updated in a couple of years. There's the usual problem of nobody daring to publish an email address for fear of being spammed, although FOAF caters for SHA-1 checksums to reduce the risks.

      I've also played with http://geourl.org/. I see a few sites using it, but, again, the homepage is not being updated.

      Cory Doctorow wrote about Metacrap in 2001. Has much changed since then? There is the risk/certainty that companies/spammers will create fake metadata to attract the clicks, but perhaps someone can come up with a trust system to avoid that.

    4. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by crimperman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We're fast moving from "this is a big red piece of text" to "this is a heading" thanks to CSS allowing us to state that headings should be big and red.

      Fast? CSS has allowed us to do that since 1996! :o)

      I doubt we're ever going to be in a position where every site is marked up with RDF metadata, but a lot of sites are now offering APIs that are good enough to do the job, sure we're unlikely to have a universal API that allows us to query any website on the internet and extract the data we're looking for, but realistically what would that actually gain us?

      People used similar arguments for HTML standards when the (first) browser wars were on. The purpose of a standard is (supposed to be) that sites interacting with each other (as is an ideal of Web 2.0) can do so without specific coding for each site you interact with. Hence RSS aggregators can grab any RSS feed and display it. If "Web 2.0" is going to be as useful as the web itself then it needs to avoid splitting into different APIs and formats.

      I think we're going to see a lot more almost-standards around the web...

      And, for me, this is part of the problem.
    5. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Niten · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You're missing the point. It's not that the current "presentation" of the Semantic Web is too complex; the problem is that actually creating the Semantic Web is too complex a task for most Web content creators to be interested in.

      Essentially, the Semantic Web asks users to explicitly state relations between concepts and ideas to make up for our current lack of an AI capable of discerning such things for itself from natural human language. But let's face it, the average Joe writing his weblog or LiveJournal entries - or even a more technical user such as myself - would generally not be interested in performing this time-consuming task, even with the aid of a fancy WordPress plugin or other automated process. This is what the parent meant by saying it's just "too complicated".

      The way to realize the Semantic Web is to advance AI technology to the point where it becomes an automated process. Anything less would require too much manual labor to take off.

    6. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is capitalism, and the incentive it creates to screw people over for profit rather than co-operate for the common good.

      Technology isn't going to overcome that problem. We need a new economic system.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    7. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by bbtom · · Score: 1

      That sounds just like a big user experience problem. There is nothing technically wrong with the data model, it just needs to have people design decent, usable interfaces and make the experience of using the system easier. That, combined with motivation - putting incentives in front of people to make data available. Sounds enough to keep the Silicon Valley type startup culture rolling for a few more years... :)

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    8. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by EastCoastSurfer · · Score: 1

      And the common good does what in this case?

      If search engines start using semantic tags to prioritize their results then people will start semantically tagging their data. Time is a finite resource and people need incentives to spend their time tagging their site semantically. This has little or nothing to do with a particular economic system.

    9. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by jav1231 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yeah because what we really need is some kind of forced cooperation mechanism! Fuckit, how about a standardizing board that dictates it! Yeah! As long as it's not the government because that would contradict my hippie tendencies.
      You drink too much, or not enough. I'm not sure which it is with you but you're not drinking the right amount.

    10. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by KjetilK · · Score: 1
      They are two quite different things. Microformats and tagging is for making data available and simple one-data-source applications. And it is very useful for that. The Semantic Web is a consistent data model and more elaborate data access methods for larger things that involve multiple data sources.

      Also, GRDDL has just made microformats a part of the Semantic Web, and I have just created a system to marry taxonomies and folksonomies, (i.e. big controlled vocabularies and tags).

      There is no conflict here. People can safely use microformats for a lot of stuff (even when it doesn't make sense! :-) ) and tags are more useful than not annotate. It will all be a part of the Semantic Web, but microformats and tags far from realise the goals of the Semantic Web.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    11. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      No, I would say a forced co-operation mechanism from a democratically elected government would be ideal, actually.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    12. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by h2g2bob · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't write off RDF completely. It's slowly creeping in (emphasis on slowly :-). But it is creeping in - the creative commons tags come with rdf stuff, which Google and others can pick up on if you do a "creative commons only" search.

      Really I don't understand what people are so worked up with about RDF. It's just the XML version of the meta tags you get at the top of html documents. Some things read those and make decisions based on them, just like RDF.

    13. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      About the most structure you can impose on average Joe's blog is title, content and maybe a few tags - to a computer it's just a big boring blob of text. Joe's blog isn't really a significant use case for the SW.

      Where RDF really shines is things like a company's catalog, or the movies that are playing at a theatre, or a list of registered sex offenders. The data is already there, it's being published in HTML - all the SW is really about is publishing that data in a more structured format.

    14. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      Essentially, the Semantic Web asks users to explicitly state relations between concepts and ideas to make up for our current lack of an AI capable of discerning such things for itself from natural human language.


      Well, no, it doesn't.

      While that may be a practical necessity with most existing tools (just as in the earliest days of the web, end-users hand-coding HTML was a practical necessity), what the Semantic Web is about is standardized ways of exchanging such descriptions, just as what the plain-old-web is about is standardized vocabulary and protocol for exchanging hypertext.
    15. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by CodeBuster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Essentially, the Semantic Web asks users to explicitly state relations between concepts and ideas to make up for our current lack of an AI capable of discerning such things for itself from natural human language.

      The problem here is trust. All of the previous features of the web, whether it is javascript or metadata or something else, have invariably been abused by those seeking to game the system for profit. The semantic web is asking the marketplace to state relations in an unbiased fashion when there are powerful economic incentives to do otherwise (i.e. everything on the semantic web will end up being related to pron whether it actually is or not). Indeed there are entire businesses devoted to "optimizing" search engine results, targeting ads, spamming people to death, and other abuses. The problem was that the people that designed and built the initial web protocols and technologies did not account for the use of their network by the general public and thus did not take steps to technologically limit abuses (their network of distinguished academic colleagues was always collegial after all so there would be no widespread abuses). The semantic web will fail precisely because human nature is deceptive, not because the technology is somehow lacking.

      In fact, this whole discussion is reminiscent of the conversation that Neo has with the Architect in The Matrix Reloaded. The Architect, as you may recall, explains why a system (the Matrix), which was originally designed to be a harmony of mathematical precision, ultimately failed to function, in that form, because the imperfections and flaws inherent in humanity continuously undermined its ability to function as it was intended. The same general principle is at work with the Semantic Web, the perfect system could work in a perfect world, but not in our world because humans are not perfect.

    16. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by DragonWriter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem here is trust.


      I agree on this much.

      The semantic web is asking the marketplace to state relations in an unbiased fashion


      I don't think it really is. Its certainly asking people to make claims about resources, but those claims themselves are resources that may be the subject of metadata making claims about those claims. How people (or automated systems) treat particular claims on the Semantic Web can certainly depend on claims made about those claims by particular other sources of metadata. Trust is an issue, sure, but the Semantic Web itself also provides the framework on which to build a distributed system for resolving issues of trust.
    17. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Gospodin · · Score: 1

      Sure, but if they're democratically elected and they have unlimited power (to "force cooperation" it says in your Constitution, but of course this really means unlimited, period), then what stops them from setting the rules so that 51% of the electorate isn't a little more equal than the other 49%?

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    18. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by BalkanBoy · · Score: 1

      This is why companies like Powerset are successfully raising money (http://venturebeat.com/2007/02/12/powerset-raisin g-more-money/) to implement natural language interfaces to engines like Google's. Google currently uses statistical analysis and relatively simple parsing/indexing of documents of the keywords you type in the search box (and of course, PageRank, their key invention), to get you results. And it does a decent enough job at it.

      The next step up from this is to implement natural language parses (i.e. spoken/written English will be used to ask "the Google" or the next "Oracle" (no pun to Larry Ellison)) that will be mapped ever more precisely to documents containing relevant information, and your searches will get even better, more specific results back.

      The keyword here is "mapped" - how does one map natural language queries (questions or statements) to documents? That's the job of academia, creative entrepreneurs/engineers, etc. There are already huge inroads made into this area by Cyc Corp (cyc.com), for the last 10+ years, Powerset is another one (I have yet to see a demo of their stuff), and I hear Google is also looking at NL processing...

      So instead of typing "knight night difference" (which will get you Knight Rider results), you could type "What is the difference between a knight and a night?" and get a document that describes the etymology of both words, the semantic differences, etc. This is probably a long stretch from now, but it is possible to generate somewhat meaningful answer to queries like this, nonetheless....

      The tagging (categorization), of documents is, I believe, a necessary step toward providing better results to any types of queries, so the final approach will be something like tagging (possibly all) existing and future documents with meaningful (or better yet, standardized) 'semantic' tags that can describe anything and everything in any language, whether it is a concept or a physical reality, as well as improving the NL parsers to be able to interpret/parse those tags and provide meaningful answers to a question. This is just my intuition, plus a 10 year experience as a software engineer talking, so I could be wrong as I have no huge formal experience in this area of linguistics as others may have...

      I don't think the web is doomed or has reached its potential yet. It may take YEARS to get to the point I just described above, but I think I'll live to see it (I'm 31...).

      --
      'A lie if repeated often enough, becomes the truth.' - Goebbels
    19. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      Enlightened self interest.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    20. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are several semantic tagging efforts out there. Rich Tags for example. In fact, the little buggers are springing up like the measles.

      Never seen one achieve a successful user evaluation, however.

    21. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      No, the problem is capitalism, and the incentive it creates to screw people over for profit rather than co-operate for the common good.

      That's the short-sighted view of capitalism by people who don't understand game theory.

      Technology isn't going to overcome that problem. We need a new economic system.

      That's non-sequitor. Odds are fusion power, robotics, and AI's will overcome the problems of labor as a finite resource and energy as a finite resource. As long as you can live without your own palace (resource are still limited to what we have planetside), in that world you can basically have whatever you want. In that model, capitalism isn't as interesting.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    22. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem may in part be due to capitalism but I've run into problems even with internal company projects trying to establish ontologies. Getting everyone to agree on the OWL formats is almost impossible as everyone has their own goals. I was working on a project where users could create observations and the amount of effort to create the entities and the relationships by the user is painful. I pretty much needed a way to go from natural language to the instances fully populated.

      Jim

    23. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      I understand game theory. I disagree with the conclusion.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    24. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1

      I understand game theory. I disagree with the conclusion.

      Are you sure? I wasn't talking about whether you understand game theory - merely that those who believe that capitalism is best served by screwing the other guy out of resources don't.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    25. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by tenco · · Score: 1

      human nature is deceptive Proof?
    26. Re:It will fail for other reasons too by sfmarco · · Score: 1

      It might not be too complicated. It depends what the benefits are for the writer to connect it's journal entry to a standardized vocabulary.

      The good news is that over the years vocabularies for particular domains have been developed. Probably the vocabulary definitions of Doug Lenat's Cycorp would be of most interest. He has hired many linguistics to define a common vocabulary for every day use. There is an open source version available at http://www.cyc.com/cyc/opencycOpenCyc.

      I can imagine that a semantic web of 'open knowledge' can be created, similar how wikipedia has created a free encyclopedia. Secondly search engines will become much better in finding what you are looking for, if it is able to traverse a semantic web. Just the distance between words on a page might become less effective the more content becomes available.

      An author that writes reviews about 'Anthrax' might find it off his interest to attach the word to the music vocabulary entry, if he was writing about the music band.

  4. Web services by Knutsi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Doesn't Web 2.0 reach a "critical mass" as some point, where busineese will no longer be able to not cooperate? Of course, it all gets very fragile even then...

    1. Re:Web services by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      Exactly. There's a hidden assumption in the question that the Web is now and will continue to be run by businesses. Anyone who's been around long enough knows that most of the trends seen on the Web today were set forth years before any businesses started showing up. The businesses started following the trends then and they will continue to follow the trends set in motion by the pioneers of the Web, as long as they continue to reach critical mass.

    2. Re:Web services by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Doesn't Web 2.0 reach a "critical mass" as some point, where busineese will no longer be able to not cooperate? Of course, it all gets very fragile even then..."

      That is the problem, the whole idealogy of competition is antithetical to further human development and that is the truth. Many great projects are TOTALLY self actualized. i.e. wikipedia, digg, etc. Human beings as a race need to grow up sometime, they can no longer act like barbarians only concerned for the concerns of themselves, truth is most human beings "will", in that the quality of choices they make and opinions is little more then that of glorified bacteria.

    3. Re:Web services by Jessta · · Score: 1

      Everything that is old is new again.
      We already solved the interprocess communication issue.
      But now that our processes are being run on many different machines, by many different companies, all of which don't conform to any kind of standard, and the user has no control, we need to solve the issue again.

      It's going to be fun to see the mess.

      --
      ...and that is all I have to say about that.
      http://jessta.id.au
    4. Re:Web services by Bacon+Bits · · Score: 1

      Only in the case where service users are also service providers. If websites out there all use Google's API and Google finds that they are losing money by losing direct traffic, they will truncate their API or drop the service.

      No for-profit business is in the business of providing services for free. What they will do is give you a free lunch in exchange for picking up the dinner bill.

      --
      The road to tyranny has always been paved with claims of necessity.
    5. Re:Web services by quanticle · · Score: 1

      >>Doesn't Web 2.0 reach a "critical mass" as some point, where busineese will no longer be able to not cooperate?<<

      That could happen. However, in order to reach "critical mass" you need to have some number of businesses cooperating (and profiting from the cooperation) so that other businesses see the advantages of following open standards.

      On the other hand, if "pioneer" companies like Google, Yahoo, and others fail to cooperate, then the odds of Web2.0 reaching critical mass are much reduced.

      --
      We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  5. "Why the semantic web will fail" by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...says the guy who's blogging this opinion...

    1. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by linvir · · Score: 2, Interesting

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_Web

      http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Semantic.html

      http://infomesh.net/2001/swintro/

      Nothing on any of those pages indicated that blogging is an inherent part of the "semantic web". As best as I can tell, the semantic web people want there to be some kind of SQL language for websites, so you can type "SELECT `images` FROM `websites` WHERE `porn` > 0 AND `price` = 0 AND `subject` = 'shitting dick nipples'" instead of going to Google or something.

      I guess it'd be nice to end my dependance on GOOG, but I think this naysayer guy with the blog makes some good points.

    2. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 1

      Sure, but everyone knows that blogging has stemmed from the Semantic Web. Just one of the various 'what you do' things that people now do on the web.

    3. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by tbriggs6 · · Score: 1

      Love the imagary your post conjures; where is that bleach to pour into my mind. I must agree with you though, blogging is not inherently part of the SW; it is part of BBS systems. Good lord, what is old is new again. Blog posts are just mesasge forums where you are your own sysop. As far as the semantic web does go, it is not simply for supporting some new fancy SQL. In fact, the purpose is to support representation, consumption, and reasoning about knowledge. Knowledge != Data. In your "interesting" example, we would use the semantic web to represent exactly what properties make something an image (knowledge representation), allow our agents to collect information about things that directly satisfy those properies (consume knowledge), and to infer that others things which satisfy those properties are also images (reasoning). You may have a rule that says an image is a file on the web with an MIME type of image/jpg I may say that an image is a stream of bytes which begins with "GIF87" (or whatever the header is for a GIF file). If our reasoner can infer our two descriptions describe the same things, then it can infer that the set of all images is the union of our two rules. Thus, our agent has created NEW knowledge that we never put into the system.

    4. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Semantic Web was first proposed by Berners-Lee in 1999. According to Wikipedia, blogging first gained in popularity in 1994. Care to explain how blogging "stemmed from" the Semantic Web 5 years before it was even proposed?

    5. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      For some reason, it keeps spitting 4chan out as the answer.

    6. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    7. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I thought the "blogging" comment was supposed to be a jab at the idea that some random blog bost has merit as a newsworthy article. Most blogs are basically opinions, conjecture and ramblings of a person that is not likely to be an expert on the question at hand.

      I never really thought of blogs inherently being semantic web, it doesn't have to be, and that didn't occur to me when I read the grandparent post.

    8. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 1

      Blogging's popularity took the rollercoaster when the Semantic Web got rolling - you're not seriously arguing that Web 2.0 does not have a part in the huge use and success of blogging, are you?

    9. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    10. Re:"Why the semantic web will fail" by ilovegeorgebush · · Score: 1

      hah!

      I made a funny little joke and you started pointlessly questioning me, so I felt compelled to humour you :)

      Have a nice day! :D

  6. The real reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    The researcher is just annoyed because no one sent him invites to Gmail.

  7. Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by patio11 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It was created to solve a problem we had when everyone was using Hotbot and Altavista, but people are trying to introduce it into a world where everyone is using Google. (And Wikipedia. And all that Web 2.0 junk.)

    I don't need you to mark "This page is a REVIEW of a CELL PHONE that has the NAME iPhone" anymore. All I need to do is Google "iPhone review" or hop on over to Amazon. Problem pretty freaking solved from my perspective.

    1. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Scarblac · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Just not true. For one thing, Google's results are much too noisy. For another, it relies on keywords occurring on pages, and that's rather primitive (it's not always trivial to find good keywords, and even then you might miss the one page your were looking for because they used a synonym or misspelled it).

      But the most important reason is that it would be much cooler to have a web where you could say "give me a list of all the goals scored by Romario" and have it list them for me. I don't care about pages, I want information, answers to questions. That's what the Semantic Web is supposed to be a first mini step for.

      --
      I believe posters are recognized by their sig. So I made one.
    2. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by lundqvist · · Score: 1

      The whole place is too complicated now anyway. I long for the early years of simple searches getting direct results.

    3. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      You're absolutely kidding me, right?

      When was the last time you attempted to search for a product review and didn't have to sift through a crapload of spam and sales responses?

      Not to mention now there is so much crap out there now that the odds of a page having all of my search terms on it, and still being completely irrelevant (or spam), is pretty high.

      Being able to specify the type of result you want (review, sales, etc) would make search actually useful.

    4. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Chris_Jefferson · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All those spam and sales people will probably still tag their page with "review", the same way people used to stick anything and everything in META tags. The semantic web won't make people tell the truth about their pages...

      --
      Combination - fun iPhone puzzling
    5. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Wah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      For one thing, Google's results are much too noisy. For another, it relies on keywords occurring on pages, and that's rather primitive

      No it doesn't. The genius of google was that it relies on people linking to pages talking about keywords. And uses various tools to identify and promote good linkers.

      But the most important reason is that it would be much cooler to have a web where you could say "give me a list of all the goals scored by Romario" and have it list them for me.

      That's a curious thing to ask for, since the first google result is a story about how there is a good bit of controversy surrounding Romario's "1,000" goals. The problem is your request is to vague and doesn't define all the words within itself (i.e. does a goal scored as teenager in a different league count?).

      This goal is quite a bit higher than many realize, as you could get 10 people (5 of them experts) in a room and they wouldn't necessarily be able to agree on the "right" answer.

      To ask, or even demand, that computers do the same task as a background function is ludicrious, IMHO (at least when applied to a universal context).

      --
      +&x
    6. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by asninn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Google is actually somewhat fault-tolerant when it comes to spellings - it doesn't just offer suggestions along the lines of "did you mean FOOBAR" when it thinks you mistyped something, it also includes spelling variants in your search results by default. I can't come up with a *good* example right now, but for a bad one, try to search for "head set" (sans quotes) and observe that you also get hits for the word "headset".

      I do agree about noise, but only to the extent that the spam sites and the like you get when searching for, um, certain terms are annoying. Outside of that, the sites you cast aside as irrelevant may well be what someone else was looking for, and that's doubly true for queries that are not as specific as "give me a list of all the goals scored by Romario". I sometimes look up error messages etc. on Google, for example, and any mailing list archive where they are mentioned might have the solution I'm looking for. I'm not sure at all how the semantic web would deal with that kind of query.

      --
      butter the donkey
    7. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      miss the one page your were looking for because they used a synonym or misspelled it

      I consider this proofage for why the Grammer Nazis will once day rool the werld.
    8. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by MrNonchalant · · Score: 1

      That's what the trust systems for the semantic web are for.

    9. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

      >> For one thing, Google's results are much too noisy. For another, it relies on keywords occurring on pages, and that's rather primitive

      > No it doesn't. The genius of google was that it relies on people linking to pages talking about keywords

      Being a gigantic web circle jerk doesn't make the results any less noisy.
      It just makes popular stuff more "popular". If you aren't searching for the
      latest craze all the cool kids are talking about, you can spend a fair amount of time
      crafting keywords to filter out the popular noise from what you are after.

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    10. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by KjetilK · · Score: 1
      Google is an excellent example why this isn't solved. So, my employer wanted to link to some of our partners. We have a really high google rank. But we couldn't do that, because google would punish us because they think we're getting paid to link to our partners. Google is actually broken.

      What is broken about it? The thing is that google thinks that the link has semantics, and the PageRank algorithm is totally based on that flaw. A link doesn't have any semantics.

      So, what have we done about it? RDF is actually the simplest thing that could possibly work: Instead of just a link between two documents, there is a triple, where the semantics of the link is defined.

      For a lot of businesses, this flaw of google is a problem, because you cannot talk about things that google thinks is spam.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    11. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      Exactly. The biggest problem with the generic search engines today is that they don't separate content from page layout.

      A good example of this is a product page that contains the words "add review". If the site in question has a decent page rank, it may appear high up in the google listing when someone searches for 'review "product name"' even though the page in question doesn't contain a single review. This isn't a problem for popular items that have reviews on big review sites that are assosciated with the word "review", but for rarer items it quickly becomes a waste of time.

      Generic search engines are plain inferior to focused search engines that extract specific data from the sites they scan.

      Focused search engines have several problems of their own though.

      * They require special coding for each website they scan. -- This is what the semantic web would help with.
      * The focused search engine may include fewer websites than the generic engine. -- The semantic web could also help with locating websites also.
      * There aren't search engines for all subjects.
      * Finding a focused search engine may be as much trouble as finding what you search for in the first place.

    12. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by anomalous+cohort · · Score: 1

      I don't care about pages, I want information

      I don't think that everyone would agree with that. I don't believe that the semantic web is about data aggregation as much as it is about context sensitive search.

      If you were correct, then the semantic web would not get adoption until the data aggregation function could honor the syndicator's financial need to display advertising. That would be very tricky. The syndicator would no longer be able to make any promises to the advertiser regarding placement. That would have a chilling affect on the most predominant business model on the web.

    13. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      I think the problem is that it's not being done well enough to do something like what you want.

      Another problem with the way you want to do is that the sites that have this information want you to go to them. If you visit them, they get ad impressions, possibly ad clicks and some attention/notoriety/fame/etc. If there's no attention and no money to be made because some other service has slurped your information, then it's often not worth puting up the information in a manner that's easily & automatically slurpable so that the user never has to visit the site that has the information.

    14. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by KjetilK · · Score: 1
      Of course, the failure of the meta element is one of the most important lessons learned, and one of the reasons that semweb geeks like myself aren't all that fond of microformats.

      There's a company called Segala and their main business is to use semweb technologies to make people tell the truth. And I think they are doing a good job.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    15. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Google fails badly whenever searching for e.g. Linux specific stuff. Let's suppose I want to know if hw (or sw) FooBar works in Linux. So I enter "Linux FooBar". Unfortunately there are millions of pages which have Linux noted on a sidebar, invalidating my search completely.

      Altavista used to have (still has?) "NEAR", so I could search "Linux near FooBar" and the hits were much more reliable.

    16. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Thuktun · · Score: 1

      But the most important reason is that it would be much cooler to have a web where you could say "give me a list of all the goals scored by Romario" and have it list them for me. That's a curious thing to ask for, since the first google result is a story about how there is a good bit of controversy surrounding Romario's "1,000" goals. The problem is your request is to vague and doesn't define all the words within itself (i.e. does a goal scored as teenager in a different league count?). That's a matter for the questioner to deal with. Humans can sometimes figure out what you /really/ mean when you ask an ambiguous question like that, but the questioner getting the proper result really relies on him/her having the clarity of thought to ask the right questions.
    17. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Jesus_666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How is the Semantic Web supposed to mitigate those facts? As far as I know it still relies on the site telling the world what it is about - and just like I can put "horny schoolgirls viagra playstation ponies" in an invisible <div> I can surely publish an RDF document stating that my website is about sex, naval warfare and Segways. We don't get less junk, we just get machine-readable junk.

      Also, false advertisement aside, when requesting a listong of everything pertaining to, say, "Alice Cooper", how do you deal with the thirty million hits for websites that offer Alice Cooper lyrics? Of course you can construct complex queries, but that's also possible with Google.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
    18. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by AuMatar · · Score: 1

      I think you're full of shit. I have never had a search in google not find exactly what I want in the first 5 results. You're either lieing to jump on the anti-google bandwagon, or suck at creating querries.

      --
      I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
    19. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by MarkGriz · · Score: 1

      Just because your google search results are always spot on, doesn't mean I'm wrong, lying, full of shit, or suck at creating queries.
      In fact, I've gotten pretty damn good at creating queries to filter out all kinds of crap (most notably ebay and other shopping sites).

      Don't get me wrong.... I'm not anti google at all. I use Google dozens of times a day and most often it finds what I'm looking for.
      However, for something more esoteric, you might have to retry your query many times over, changing a word here or there until you hit
      what you are after. Google is good at finding matches for particular words and exact phrases, but sucks at inexact phrase matches that would
      be considered very similar to a human. It would help even more if google did some type of thesaurus lookup on your search words, substituted
      similar words, and reran your search with those words as well.

      --
      Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
    20. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      If you spell your queries right, you do get millions of hits. Your approach is original though.

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    21. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by TuringTest · · Score: 1

      how do you deal with the thirty million hits for websites that offer Alice Cooper lyrics? Of course you can construct complex queries, but that's also possible with Google.

      The difference is in the interaction initiative. With Google you have to construct a complex query from scratch, by combining logical operators (AND, OR) and filters (+, -), and you have to decide which keywords to include.

      A semantic search, on the other hand, will suggest relevant terms related to the main item - this allows to refine the query with the best elements of context. In your example of Alice Cooper, it would provide several alternatives for refinement - lyrics, songs, biography, pictures... - terms which could be added or filtered out.

      Faceted search is usually a better query method than Google's "command line". Semantic Web would create automatic faceted searchs for all kind of information.

      --
      Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
    22. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by try_anything · · Score: 1

      Thesaurus lookup would come in handy once in a while, but much more often I use specific language to get the hits I want. When I know a word that is mostly particular to one group people or one style of writing, I can use it to limit your searches. Until we reach the point where a search engine can understand the intent behind different search terms, I'd much prefer a stupid tool that trusts my word (yuk yuk) and doesn't use its "intelligence" to draw in a bunch of results I'm trying to leave out.

      The problem with the Semantic Web is that it can't decide whether to enable dumb, limited, ad-hoc models of intelligence -- traditional, logical programming in which data and behavior are precisely specified -- or a general-purpose semantic model using original reasoning about discrete concepts. The first option has been happening for years in small, unexciting ways and will not be advanced in any way by the Semantic Web. The second is a perennial pipe dream of AI. Maybe the global scale of the internet, the masses of data and computing power, will finally make this dream a reality, but we have no good reason for believing so. More likely we will end up with tools just smart enough to be useless, like a search engine that always uses thesaurus lookup.

    23. Re:Reason #1 the Semantic Web will fail by Jesus_666 · · Score: 1

      Don't several search functions already suggest refinements? eBay does this by, as does Google Suggest.

      --
      USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
  8. Corporate Self Centeredness by ooze · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Only way to set an industry standard is, to get so fast so big in a new market/technology that everybody has to follow.
    Problem is, when you get so big so fast, there are almost neccessarily major flaws in the designs.
    Problem is, you never get rid of them again.

    --
    Just because I can imagine doing a hippopotamus, doesn't mean I'd like to do it.
  9. Google by c_fel · · Score: 1, Insightful

    What are those rumors about Google who would be closing their search API ? Are we talking about the boxes we can put on our sites to make a search in Google ? I thought the add shown besides the results were their main revenue : Why the hell would they close it ?

    --
    I hate all sigs, mine included.
    1. Re:Google by discord5 · · Score: 2, Informative

      What are those rumors about Google who would be closing their search API ? Are we talking about the boxes we can put on our sites to make a search in Google ?

      No, this is about the SOAP API being replaced by a less flexible AJAX API. Never used either of them to be honest, but that's because I don't have any real need for them. When it comes to the content of my own websites (or rather my customers websites), I'd much rather prefer relying on my own database than an index google made.

  10. Why the future tense, anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Is the semantic web supposed to be a success in the present times?

  11. Why it will fail by squoozer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It might fail for the reasons given (no I've not read the full article yet - naturally) but personally I think it will fail simply because it's too much work for the amount of payback. It would be great if one day magically over night all our data was semantically marked up but that's not going to happen. The reality of it is that we will have to mark up the majority of content by hand. Even then inter-ontology mappings are so difficult that I'm not sure the system would be much use.

    Perhaps worse than that though is the prospect of semantic spamming. It would be impossible to trust the semantic mark up in a document unless you could actually process the document and understand it. What would be the point in the mark up in that case?

    --
    I used to have a better sig but it broke.
    1. Re:Why it will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      personally I think it will fail simply because it's too much work for the amount of payback. This is the reason, the people don't understand it. It's like giving a fusion reactor to a cave man. No love.
    2. Re:Why it will fail by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      It would be impossible to trust the semantic mark up in a document unless you could actually process the document and understand it.


      A major point of the semantic web is that semantic markup about a resource can be provided anywhere else on the (semantic) web. You may not trust the markup in an unknown document about which you know nothing, but you may be able to trust the markup about that documented provided by a trusted source. And, if you apply some rules for delegating trust, you may automatically provide a degree of trust the the semantic markup in a document that a source that you explicitly have given a degree of trust asserts is trustworthy.

      Trust is certainly a problem with the Semantic Web (and the regular web, and email, and lots of other things on the internet). But its not an intractable problem, and indeed its a problem that the Semantic Web itself provides a framework for addressing.

  12. Yes. Also... by Zarkonnen · · Score: 1

    I agree that the Semantic Web people haven't read their epistemology texts. Here's an interesting article on this topic, explaining how essentially, all this "web-of-meaning" stuff was tried by NLP/AI researchers decades ago, and plain does not work.

    The article concludes that a "weak" version of the semantic web may be possible - no clever inference or anything, just a set of data interchange standards. Which is basically the XML / data interchange standards bit of Web 2.0.

    But as the blog entry says, even that might not happen due to commercial interests. The obvious (and oh so Slashdot) thing to say at this point is that we need open, not-for-profit data interchange standards - but of course the commercial sites would then refuse to use them. Or if they did, they'd probably try to embrace-and-extend them.

    1. Re:Yes. Also... by zoobsolar · · Score: 1

      I was going to mention what you said "...NLP/AI researchers decades ago, and plain does not work." Thanks for posting that link.

      If companies dont want to work together? Failure.

      If standards aren't defined within groups working together? Failure.

      If anyone thinks "web 2.0" is a technology and not just some media hyped buzzword? Failure.

      The ideas behind web 2.0 are nothing new. Ancient thought even.

      If you want to stay ahead of the curve, write your own software/web-based applications and then no worries when the big boys pull the plug and/or start charging to use their currently free publicly available API.

  13. the real reason? by eokyere · · Score: 1, Interesting

    it trivializes the hard problems, and then goes on to make the really soft ones look like they are hard. read shirky [http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism .html]

    1. Re:the real reason? by obtuse · · Score: 1

      Why don't they mention the primary reasons the Semantic Web is uninteresting?

      1. All the current meta-tag abusers will dilute the Semantic Web as soon as it is profitable to do so. Currently the Semantic Web is akin to the WWW prior to Mosaic. Neato. Not as useful as Gopher but cool.

      1.1 Accurate and meaningful description is hard even if you want to do it right. Is writing documentation easy, or hard?

      Finally, as described by Shirky, the idea of chaining these tags together for a larger insight is simply laughable.

      It's misleading because when I'm searching, I have particular keywords in mind. Thus it appears that the pages I want should've been labeled by the author with that word. Unfortunately, If I'm searching instead of going directly to Wikipedia, I'm probably looking for information that isn't an obvious primary tag.

      --
      Assembly is the reverse of disassembly.
    2. Re:the real reason? by soliptic · · Score: 1

      great article, thanks. deserves higher moderation.

    3. Re:the real reason? by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      All the current meta-tag abusers will dilute the Semantic Web as soon as it is profitable to do so.


      This is a good point, and one reason that for the Semantic Web to go anywhere, trust and accountability are going to need to be front and center. Not that these are particularly hard problems, in fact the tools needed are widely available.
  14. What is it anyway? by mwvdlee · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So what is this semantic web / web 2.0 thing anyway?

    Sure, we're all seeing community sites, blogs, tagging, etc. But each of those sites is an individual site, and their only connections seem to be plain HTML links. Community sites don't really allow collaboration, blogs are standardized personal web pages and who here uses tags to actually find information? All these things might warrant a "Web 1.0 patch 3283" label, but is it really a new type of web? Is it the type and magnitude of paradigm shift that the first web was? It only seems like people are just becoming more aware of the possibilities of the same web it was 10 years ago.

    --
    Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
    1. Re:What is it anyway? by AutopsyReport · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would agree. The current idea of what constitutes Web 2.0 doesn't fit the label. If I had to propose a new definition for Web 2.0, it would be the beginning shift of desktop applications to the Web. I just can't consider a trend in graphics, tagging, and social networking as a major advancement in the Web. Yeah, it's cool and it can be fun, but you said it best when you called it the "3282 patch". That's a more appropriate title for what's going on.

      What's really cool is the beginning of desktop to web applications. There are a lot of innovative applications floating around -- mostly niche (being able to create a .doc document online is not really interesting) -- that allow you (or firms) to do things they couldn't do before. These applications have had impressive effects on their users. Despite the many shortcomings of the Web, I truly believe niche applications are more deserving of the Web 2.0 title.

      --

      For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

    2. Re:What is it anyway? by asninn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There might not be a clear revolution, but there certainly is a lot of evolution going on. For example, compare early web pages (written a mere 15 years ago) to, say, Google Maps; I think it's safe to say that there happened more than just a move from "Web 1.0" to "Web 1.0 patch 3283".

      The problem with "web 2.0" is not that the web hasn't changed dramatically, it's that the term is rooted in marketing rather than technology.

      --
      butter the donkey
    3. Re:What is it anyway? by KjetilK · · Score: 1
      Indeed, the Web 2.0 thing is really a small, incremental change. Write-web was really in TimBL's ideas from the beginning. Collaboration too. Arguably, the application web is a bigger step up.

      But Web 2.0 is distinctly different from the Semantic Web. The Semantic Web is about structuring data on a global level and allow queries on them. There is a lot of structured data out there (in backend databases, XML trees, etc), and making them available in a consistent data model, the Semantic Web is here.

      The big use cases are bigger mashups. Like now, people are doing some mashups. Like for example putting weather symbols on google maps and get weather forecasts. That's trivial on the Semantic Web, you would do that without any programmer, you just say that "this weather symbol" is an icon, and that's it, an ontology aware browser would just do it.

      Programmers are using a lot of time on creating simple mashups, but semweb mashups typically involves little effort to include like 10 different data sources.

      --
      Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    4. Re:What is it anyway? by mgblst · · Score: 1

      This is because you don't really understand it. This is huge, when you start to think about it. It is an agreed upon form of describing data, rather than just blindly putting it up on the web as a blog or whatever. Go read up on it.

    5. Re:What is it anyway? by AutopsyReport · · Score: 1

      I don't need to read up on it, I've been using it. And it's not standardized. The concept of tagging data isn't new -- it's just new to the Web and "blogs" and "social networks". Ever heard of metadata? Tagging is shorthand metadata on a global scale. I suggest you be the one to do some research. Here's some links for you: Tags (metadata) and Metadata

      --

      For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother.

    6. Re:What is it anyway? by mgblst · · Score: 1

      Wow, once again you have missed the points. This isn't about tags and metadata, it is about producing a coherent, agreed upon method for tagging all data. So that we can build this awareness into search engines. This is currently what is lacking, to tags.

      You are clearly an imbecile, and want to hold onto your limited understanding of this subject, rather than expand your mind. Congratulations, you have reached the bottom of the gene people. Reality TV awaits!

  15. Deal with the hype and complexity, Hal Porter. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Another problem is that we hear nothing but hype about the Semantic Web. Here on Slashdot, there's some fellow named Hal Porter who will always go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how great the Semantic Web is. But all it is so far is hype. We see little in the way of tangible results.

    But you're completely correct about complexity being a problem. I mean, look at the Semantic Web stack. It'll take most developers years to become suitably familiar with even a small portion of those technologies. And by the time they've managed to get even just a minimal grasp of such technologies, there's no doubt such knowledge will be completely outdated.

    1. Re:Deal with the hype and complexity, Hal Porter. by CRCulver · · Score: 1

      We see little in the way of tangible results.

      See Visualizing the Semantic Web , ed. Geroimenko and Chen (Springer-Verlag, 2005). Even five years ago when the first edition of this book appeared, the Semantic Web was already a reality in that the technologies around it were already mature enough to be used on internal projects. Sure, the Average Joe using Flickr might not even encounter this, but it's long been possible for developers (even relative amateurs) to powerfully manipulate semantically tagged data.

  16. Why the Semantic Web will work by cedars · · Score: 1

    I challenge everyone to take a look at:

    http://wiki.ontoworld.org/

    It will take a while to understand and you'll probably need to read the instructions. But if you can imagine a more user-friendly version of this Wiki you'll begin to see why the Semantic Web is such a powerful idea. Yes, big corporations can really help launch a technology but they are not the be all and end all. Small businesses have played a big role in the emergence of new technologies. Remember those really small companies like Google, MySpace and Netscape?

    My gut tells me the semantic web will take off. It won't be a utopia and won't fulfil all the promises, but like so many technologies, it will make things a little better than before.

    Cedars.

    1. Re:Why the Semantic Web will work by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok I bit and took a look and what did I find? Viagra.

      http://ontoworld.org/wiki/Talk:Semantic_Web_Topic_ Hierarchy/

    2. Re:Why the Semantic Web will work by GerardM · · Score: 1

      I love Semantic MediaWiki. I use it for a private wiki and it is really nice. It has several things going for it and one drawback. It is really great how you can bring all kinds of content together defining relation types on the fly. It's drawback is that it works for one language at a time. This in my opinion is one aspect that is holding the semantic web back.

      My private opinion is that http://omegawiki.org/ provides the multilingual support, a combination that brings the Semantic MediaWiki together with the OmegaWiki technology provides the best of both worlds.

      Thanks,
            GerardM

  17. You keep using that word... by thenerdgod · · Score: 1, Funny

    I do not think it means what you think it means

    1. Re:You keep using that word... by radtea · · Score: 4, Insightful

      `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.'

      `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

      `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -- that's all.'

      Lewis Carol had it right, and George Orwell agreed with him: "Which is to be master" is the question that matters.

      In free societies, everyone is master, and our language is conditioned only by the minimal need to communicate approximately with others. Beyond that, we are free to impose whatever semantics we want, and we do this to a far greater extent than most people realize. As a friend who works in GIS once said, "If I send out a bunch of geologists to map a site and collate their data at the end of the day, I can tell you who mapped where, but not what anyone mapped." Individual meanings of terms as simple as "granite" or "schist" are sufficiently variable that even extremely concrete tasks are very difficult.

      Imposing uniform ontologies on any but the most narrowly defined fields is impossible, and even within those fields nominally standard vocabularies will be used differently by rapidly-dividing "cultural" subgroups within the workers in the field.

      The semantic web is doomed to fail because language is far more highly personalized than anyone wants to believe. I think this is a good thing, because the only way to impose standardized meanings on terms would be to impose standardized thinking on people, and if that were possible someone would have done it by now. Whereas we know, despite millennia of attempts, no such standardization is possible, except in very small groups over a very specialized range of concepts.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    2. Re:You keep using that word... by mounthood · · Score: 1

      Whereas we know, despite millennia of attempts, no such standardization is possible, except in very small groups over a very specialized range of concepts.
      Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."
      "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."
      --
      tomorrow who's gonna fuss
    3. Re:You keep using that word... by bbtom · · Score: 1

      So... you let people make their own ontologies. Since the Semantic Web is an open platform with open standards, this is easier than you would think. The only objection to this is "people are stupid". I don't think they are. YMMV.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    4. Re:You keep using that word... by radtea · · Score: 1

      So... you let people make their own ontologies.

      And you wind up with as many ontologies as there are people, because meaning is a verb.

      The problem isn't that people are stupid. It's that people are smart. They can think of more perfectly legitimate and completely incompatible ways of classifying things than I can possibly imagine, and there is as yet no proven, effective way of performing the vital task of "finding pages marked up relative to ontologies that are created by people who think sufficiently like me on the topic I am currently interested in to be useful."

      That long specification is really what the semantic web needs to be useful, and I can tell you that after a couple of decades in and out of academia at all levels, I know that I can't predict how anyone will classify anything, and I know that their past behaviour in other areas of study is no guide to whether we will be compatible in a different area.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    5. Re:You keep using that word... by bbtom · · Score: 1

      "owl:sameAs" solves much of that problem - tools like Protégé make it pretty easy to import other ontologies and extend them.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    6. Re:You keep using that word... by mattpalmer1086 · · Score: 1

      Imposing uniform ontologies on any but the most narrowly defined fields is impossible, and even within those fields nominally standard vocabularies will be used differently by rapidly-dividing "cultural" subgroups within the workers in the field.

      I completely agree. This is why I don't see the "semantic web" taking off in the form it's proposed. There are too many viewpoints and there is too little payoff for structuring a vast amount of data just so other people can find it a bit easier, when the vast mass of people don't have a big problem finding the information they want. Specialists on the other hand can benefit a lot, as long as you don't insist on a single ontology.

      What doesn't seem to be appreciated is that standardised semantic technologies that support the idea of multiple ontologies, and possibly some kind of trust or reputation system could be very useful for academic work or for high-value data. Pick your own sets of semantic markups for a published work. Create your own, publish it to other people. Combine them, but they still all point at the same source data. For high value data, this would be invaluable and would allow people to keep building on each others work in a way that can be extended by others later. Could be useful in the academic, engineering and scientific worlds.

      But it's only really useful if the data is published, and has long-term value. Your average web page, with the life of a housefly, wouldn't benefit from having the ability to accumulate many different ontologies and link them up how you desire. I think that's the essence of it - semantic technology is great for persistent, personalised and highly information-intensive work, not for the mass classification of short-lived data.

  18. If it can't be defined it can't succeed by duncanFrance · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Go to Wikipedia (for example) and look up the definition. Then tell me you understand it.

    See? Not a hope that a concept which includes 'collaborative working groups' as part of its definition can ever succeed.

    I mean these are the people which gave us HTML and CSS, god help us.

    Meaning is derived by humans from the interaction between data, knowledge and dialogue. What the semantic web will give us is:

    1) Data
    2) Limited knowledge to the extent that common, sufficiently rich models of relationships, taxonomies and ontologies are applied to the data.
    3) No dialogue. When Google can say 'hello Mr www.fountainofallknowledge.com. I see you have a page called ... which is marked up as being about Mini Coopers. I'm looking for stuff about 1964 Cooper S inlet manifold modifications. This page looks like it might be interesting to my client, but quite a lot of people get confused between the different models of SU carburettor which were used that year. Does this page refer to the model with the No.4 Red needle or not?'

    And get a sensible reply.

    Which it understands.

    Then I'll be interested. Until then all it will be is tagging but with a poncy name and a load of spurious academic nonsense being spouted around it to make it sound exciting.

    1. Re:If it can't be defined it can't succeed by tbriggs6 · · Score: 1

      And how many people sat around and said, "when someone can deliver information over the internet without requiring special readers and a PhD in CS to use, I'll be interested." And of that set of people, how many were successful in the explosive growth of the internet vs. being steamrolled or back-shelved. This is the attitude that I see so prevalent on Slashdot regarding this topics. Why not take some time to at least consider the alternatives.

  19. Whooooaaaa... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    the Semantic Web Will Fail...Google will turn off its search API...will also cripple Web 3.0...the terrorists will win

    Will these problems go away when we smoke even more crack? Or is this just another slownewsday item?

  20. One word: SPAM by ngunton · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The thing the academics who push the semantic web fail to consider (most of the time) is that the Real World does not function like their Ideal World. In the Ideal World, everybody cooperates and works together to produce something of value for all mankind. So we get lots of correctly and appropriately marked up pages that give useful information on what's stored therein.

    But in the Real World, any online system that is used by a large enough number of people will eventually become attractive for spammers and scammers to defile and twist to their own purposes. So you'll get a deluge of pages that appear to be useful reviews of digital cameras (and are marked up as such) but in fact simply go to a useless "search" page that has lots of link farm references.

    And if you say "Ok, so we don't trust the author of the page, we have someone else do it"... then who? Who's going to do all the work? Answer: Nobody. AI is nowhere near being smart enough for this. Keyword searching is, unfortunately, here to stay. If you trust the author to do the markup, then the spammers have a field day. If you say "Only trusted authors" then the system will still fail, due to laziness on most people's part - if a system isn't trivial to implement and involves some kind of "authentication" or "authorization" then nobody will use it, period. The Web succeeded in the first place because anybody anywhere could just stick up a Web server and publish pages, and it was immediately visible to the whole world.

    The Semantic Web will fail for the same reason that the "meta" tag failed in HTML: Any system that can be abused by spammers, will be abused.

    So, the Semantic Web, which is all about helping people find stuff, will fail. Not because of any technological shortcomings (it's all very nice in theory), but simply because we as people won't work together to make it work. Well, a small number of people could work together, but as that number got larger, until it reaches the point of being useful, it will automatically get to the tipping point where it becomes worthwhile for the spammers to jump in and foul it all up.

    1. Re:One word: SPAM by Arslan+ibn+Da'ud · · Score: 2, Insightful

      s/Semantic Web/Wikipedia/g;

      I believe all your arguments have been used to explain why Wikipedia will fail. Well, it hasn't failed yet.

      --

      Practice Kind Randomness and Beautiful Acts of Nonsense.

    2. Re:One word: SPAM by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Whitelisting and search personalization. When your search engine is giving priority to people you know and trust and sites they say they trust then the spam problem is significantly lessened. The OpenID community are already using OpenID as a spam whitelisting mechanism. In the Semantic Web layer cake, there is a layer called Trust, which is based on a combination of the RDF stack and document signing and encryption. Even if that isn't the way it's approached, Trust is something that SemWeb people are concerned with. I'm in the middle of designing a SemWebby tool (can't explain it here because I haven't decided whether it's going to be free, commercial or open source etc.) and how trust is dealt with is important.

      Currently, Google is the thing to spam - you pick some keywords and you try to spam them. A highly personalized version of Google that uses your friends and colleagues attention data will be a lot harder to spam. With the Semantic Web, yes, people will lie. But if people find out they lie, they can put them on a "liar's list" - just as you do mentally in real life. People lie in databases, people lie on their blogs, people lie in real life. If you expect the Semantic Web to solve a common trait that is present in a large chunk of humanity, then you need to rethink your assumptions about the Semantic Web. :)

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    3. Re:One word: SPAM by jlowery · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I believe all your arguments have been used to explain why Wikipedia will fail. Well, it hasn't failed yet.

      Ummm...

      1) Academia won't allow Wikipedia as a primary reference
      2) Steven Colbert
      3) Authorities with unverified academic credentials
      4) Reversion wars
      5) Article lock-downs

      Also, Wikipedia relies on many editors working on a single resource, wherease the SW relies on single editors working on many resources. It is hard to corrupt many editors, but easier to have corrupt single editors.

      --
      If you post it, they will read.
    4. Re:One word: SPAM by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      But in the Real World, any online system that is used by a large enough number of people will eventually become attractive for spammers and scammers to defile and twist to their own purposes.


      Sure, but the Semantic Web also enables the kind of metametadata that enables automatically ignoring metadata from sources that your circle of trust (has designated as "spammers" or "scammers"), provided that you also have an accountability/trust mechanism, like relying on signed metadata.

      But, really, lots of problems with utility on the internet call out for more use of accountability/trust mechanisms, so I expect that what is mostly needed for the Semantic Web to succeed is what is needed for the web (and email, and ...) to survive and remain valuable under the ever-increasing flood of scammers and spammers.
    5. Re:One word: SPAM by l0b0 · · Score: 1

      OK, time for some reasons why the semantic web won't fail:

      Spam is everywhere, but neither the web, email, or IM are useless because of that. Spam filtering will have to be built into semantic web parsers, just like everywhere else. That it hasn't been done yet is just a sign that the standards are still bleeding edge. If anything, I believe the semantic web will be much more resilient towards spam, if only because web site relationships would be better defined - Now the only only way is to link to a site, but with the semantic web you could define ways to tell the spiders "Company X is most definitely not related to us."

      The user friendly semantic web is already here, in the shape of microformats. When used correctly, they could e.g. help you filter out books written about Jane Doe from books written by her, or mentioning her work, or written by her and John Doe. Microformats are simple but well defined semantically, so I believe they will be a success.

      We have all but exhausted our text mining capabilities. For example, if I'm looking for pages about Jane Doe, I shouldn't lose the search results from (fan) blog posts and forums which only refer to her as "JD" or "our most glorious and exalted leader".

      Mapping text data to RDF would be a huge PITA, but fortunately huge amounts of useful data is stored in relational databases. These can relatively easily be mapped to ontologies and exposed to the world.

      Accessibility is very much about semantics, and it's starting to become mandated. Goodbye table layouts, hello <label> and <abbr>.

      A friend of mine, and probably many others, are working on mapping ontologies to each other. When that's well understood, mapping from company A's understanding of the world to company B won't be such a big hassle, and then we can really get e.g. universal flight ticket search engines on the way.

  21. Obvious by AlXtreme · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The Semantic Web is a solution in search of a problem.

    No matter how cool your RDF/OWL ontologies are, the real world is perfectly happy with plain XML/CSV. If there isn't an obvious benefit, people won't switch.

    --
    This sig is intentionally left blank
    1. Re:Obvious by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Have you seen GRDDL? It's a way of producing RDF/XML data from "plain XML" (although not plain CSV...), and XHTML too (and HTML if you run stuff through Tidy). It's typically W3C - a big long document to explain 'XML+XSLT=RDF', but it's pretty neat nonetheless. Anything that's even vaguely structured can be turned in to RDF very easily. The W3C made a mistake in thinking that RDF etc. would be picked up straight out of the gate in 1999 (when RDF was standardised) - instead, it's taking a rather bending path towards popularity.

      There is lots of interesting stuff going on just below the surface, but because it is going on below the surface, it's very easy for people to say there's nothing going on. I have to strongly disagree with Stephen's post. If the MySpaces of the world don't want to expose APIs, that's their prerogative. It'll be uppity programmers who'll write screen scrapers to get them on the semantic web whether they want to be there or not! The market will ebb and flow, and eventually MySpace will be as dead as all the other social networks that sit on the scrapheap of the 'net. Software competes on a lot of things - features being one of them. On the Internet, a site which lets you export your data will be more valuable to the (intelligent) user than one that doesn't. As for the stupid user, well, that's a problem that the Semantic Web can't solve. Stupidity, like lying, is a problem that no amount of W3C standards can solve.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  22. Other Market by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Maybe these things will fail in the public world of free service bureaus with which this guy is familiar, but the concept of webservice API is exploding in the vertical market spaces. In only the last two or three years virtually every single vendor my company works with in the financial industry has launched fully WSE compliant webservices to tie into their products. Previously you would have to work in batch by uploading a file to a secure FTP site and wait for results to appear as another file in that same FTP site. Now the results are real-time.

    Companies are certainly embracing the new standards (and yes, there are standards) and they are certainly using them to replace existing older protocols and there is a lot of money to be made in this field.

  23. Skilled Writer by endianx · · Score: 1

    +1 for figuring out how to bash Libertarians and Republicans in an article about the Internet; a task not easily accomplished.

    I mostly agree with the article though. Companies will not adopt these technologies until it starts to cost them business. This article assumes, though, that will never happen. I disagree. I think things will move slow at first, but will start to see use more and more. Like all internet technologies, the more they are used, the more people are likely to use them.

  24. One other thing ... by FonkiE · · Score: 1

    After it would work the academic way. It would be spammed to hell.

    Who do you trust giving away the right semantics for a page?

    Maybe a handful of companies will trust each other. Or google will make them sign something?

    Not a WEB I'm part of I guess.

  25. semantic horizon by cies · · Score: 1

    this semantic web is not made for today or yesterday: it is made for the future. of course there are obstacles. but if the amount of available online content grows as rapidly as predicted we need a better way to find what we want: we need machine understandable annotations.

    so the semantic web fails right now. but your google queries fail you in the future, then what? maybe then the semantic web will also make sense to to the guy who wrote this article.

    1. Re:semantic horizon by Jon+Peterson · · Score: 1
      we need machine understandable annotations.


      Well, until computers become intelligent, they aren't going to ever understand anything, and that's the problem.

      Inference isn't understanding. If I tell a computer that "milk" IS A "dairy product" AND "dairy product" COMES FROM "Cow", then, yippee, the computer 'understands' that milk is comes from cows.

      But that doesn't help the computer to know what the adjective 'milky' means. It surely does NOT mean 'similar or pertaining to that which comes from cows', or else I could truthfully say 'cow dung is milky', which I can't. The fact is that the linguistic move from noun milk to adjective milky carries with it a vast and subtle payload of meaning that cannot be captured in ontologies. The semantic web fails to address this in any way.

      Even ignoring some very basic linguistic problems, people don't agree on the facts. For some people, powdered milk is a dairy product, and is a sub-class of milk. Chef's, for instance, might think that. For others it's not a diary product and is a sub-class of 'dessicated foodstuffs'. Warehouse managers, for instance, might think that.

      So, problem number two is that these ontologies (which are basically large clumps of facts and relations about and between classes and instances of things) can only ever be agreed on in narrow domains. And from practical experience, those domains are really very narrow indeed. Not domains like 'medicine' or even 'surgery', but perhaps 'heart surgery'

      Now, the semantic web recognises this second problem, of ontologies only working for narrow domains, although I think most proponents fail to realise just how narrow the domains are. The first issue, of deductive reasoning not being very useful, is entirely ignored as far as I can tell.

      --
      ----- .sig: file not found
  26. Why I hope people stop calling Web 2.0 the SW by tbriggs6 · · Score: 1

    First, the current Web 2.0={Facebook, Blogs, Tagging, Mashups, ... } is NOT the end of the Semantic Web. What tiny bit of SW technology that has leaked into the infrastructure of these technologies is a tiny fraction of the capabilities of this technology. In fact, I am amazed and appalled at the general reaction of the slashdot community. The general consensus is that this couldn't possibly work because it will require "corporations" to come together (ironic given the etnymology of the word corporation). The same could be said of the early Linux community. That Linus Torvalds is never going to amount to anything because his new OS will require people all over the place to agree on standards (the kernel) and to cooperate in a huge development process that has never been tried on this scale before. I'm quite certain that Linux is just a passing fancy. Seriously though, today's computing paradigm sucks. I spend most of my time working on stupid technical problems instead of actually working on the hard research issues I am trying to focus on. Case in point, I spent the weekend trying to get JDBC and/or PERL to insert a long string into a CLOB of XMLType with Oracle. Why? Because the agent I developed was performing tests and producing result sets in XML, and it would be handy to store in Oracle. In the end, I spent more time solving the "how do I do this stupid task" than working on the actual research issues of the project. In other cases, we (as a community) still spend our time worrying about little bits of a the technical minutiae. One of the things that draws my interested toward the Semantic Web is that it won't work on today's computing paradigm. It isn't going to be successful so long as we are worried about connecting this SQL query to that CGI script, and discussing how we screen scrape that HTML page and extract that information from a CDF file. These are the things we have been doing since the first magentic tapes were sent in the mail to be read by some other system. I think it is time that we start moving on and looking forward to what the next generation of computing CAN do. Yes, there are significant technical challenges ahead. Yes, there will be false starts and probably a high infant mortality rate as we move forward. Already there have been numerous Semantic Web languages (e.g. DAML+OIL) that are being replaced by others (e.g. OWL), and already the research community is pushing a new version of OWL to include in its definition things which we cannot do today. I guess if anything, I am encouraged by the stalwarts of today's technology calling for the impending implosion of the Semantic Web. It means that the research community has pushed so far to the edge of what We (as a species) are currently capable of that only visionaries (not including myself in this set) can see the whole picture. This is good. This represents the first honest See-change in the future of computing that I've seen in years. So, if anything, keep calling for its demise. Keep predicting its death. One day, when the research moves it from science to technology, you will be excited about how cool this new technology is, and Slashdot will be filled with discussions of how Microsoft's implementation of the Semantic Web is terrible, and how the OSS version of a Semantic Web database is 5% faster than Oracle's. And there will be some comfort in knowing that all is right in the world after all.

  27. So what you're saying... by Luke+Dawson · · Score: 1

    ...is that it is this "free market" we live in that will ultimately make the semantic web a non-starter. Businesses won't collaborate because it doesn't afford them a competitive edge. In the end the real losers are we, the great unwashed. Not that a free market is a bad thing, it just doesn't always align with what's in the peoples' best interests.

  28. Why will fail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it will fail because nobody apart from the academics and hippies who invented know wtf it actually means.

  29. Human Language by pfortuny · · Score: 0

    To me, that sounds the same as saying
    "human language will never succeed".

    OK, there may not be ONE and DEFINITIVE semantic web,
    there may be MANY.

    Better for the users. Like free market, you know?

    Moreover, you can see the different languages both
    as a problem and as a treasure. Depends on the point
    of view...

  30. Flickr? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Flickr thing was a non-issue, how does it have anything to do with the Semantic Web?

  31. It has already been known for a long time... by giuntag · · Score: 2, Informative

    Best essay on the topic I have come across: http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm

    1. Re:It has already been known for a long time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hah, amusing, but :

      "Even when there's a positive benefit to creating good metadata, people steadfastly refuse to exercise care and diligence in their metadata creation.

      Take eBay: every seller there has a damned good reason for double-checking their listings for typos and misspellings. Try searching for "plam" on eBay. Right now, that turns up nine typoed listings for "Plam Pilots." Misspelled listings don't show up in correctly-spelled searches and hence garner fewer bids and lower sale-prices. You can almost always get a bargain on a Plam Pilot at eBay. "

      How to explain the CDDB-variants, then? Both good and evil are impressively useful, as far as I can see. It amazes me that people are so obsessed with tagging all their music, but hey, nice for me.

  32. The Semantic Web May Fail... by SwashbucklingCowboy · · Score: 1

    ... but not for the reasons the researcher cited.

  33. It's relative by tbannist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This is the real world, most things aren't total successes or total failures.

    Most likely the symantic web will fail to achieve all it's objectives but achieve some of them, and may eventually rise again after it's failed. This is the nature of progress. Good ideas that fail are usually resurrected later. However the blogger is probably right, as long as the symantic web is going to be "handed" to us by a group of established corporations it will most likely never succeed, there's too much incentive for back stabbing in that top-down implementation. For it to succeed it needs to be so obvious that there's more money and power available by playing nice that all but the most black hearted capitalists will play nice. We have to be aware that people like spammers exist, though, and anything that could potentially be used to generate advantage will be abused to death.

    --
    Fanatically anti-fanatical
  34. Everyone can agree that would be cool by snowwrestler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    But there are three ways to get that.

    1) A search service that indexes all of Romario's goals.
    2) A manually built asset that aggregates all of Romario's goals.
    3) A standard system of semantic tags that self-identifies all Romario goal assets.

    #1 is Google. As you point out now it relies primarily on keywords but you oversell the problem in two ways. First of all most video hosting sites already provide author and/or community tagging--thus providing a way for keywords to be assigned. Second, you're comparing a future semantic Web against the Google of today.

    #2 can be provided by commercial video companies now ("1,000 Great Man U Goals," etc). It's also possible that a fan site could do the manual labor to find, upload, and keyword the videos.

    #3 is the "semantic Web" approach, wherein all content providers follow a standard for self-identifying their content in a computer-parsable way.

    The thing that distinguishes 1 and 2 from 3 is the scope of work required. #1 and #2 rely on a small team of dedicated people to accomplish the task. #3 relies on a very broad group of people of varying levels of dedication.

    If you're talking practically about the solution, none of those approaches are going to to get to 100%. As others have pointed out there is a real human semantic problem in identifying which goals of Romario to count, how far back to look, etc.

    But the key is that #1 and #2 are approaches of a scope that we know can work. #3 seems unlikely to get the buy-in and effort required.

    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    1. Re:Everyone can agree that would be cool by foniksonik · · Score: 1

      What web 2.0 and the semantic web can do together is better than #1 and #2. Instead of a dedicated team of 20 you get a completely arbitrary and undedicated team of 20 million doing their best to tag content with keywords. When you do a search on a keyword you get a relevance of say 90% for videos with MAN U goals because random people who stumbled upon them tagged them as such. This takes all the work out of it for the distributor. In essence you can put up a video with no meta data.... and let the masses create it for you. Sure will get some mistakes but they should be ironed out by the majority getting it right.

      The biggest problem with web 2.0 is getting enough eyeballs looking at the content for it to work. Especially difficult if the topic of your content is niche and only appeals to a small group of people. This is why and article on the care and handling of hamsters will never rise to the top of DIGG no matter how good it is (relative to it's topic).

      --
      A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
  35. The real reason = Security by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

    The more functionality and interactivity you have between what were always envisioned as static documents, the more security holes are opened up. This combined with the Search Engine Optimization Industry, which is dedicated to lying about a sites content and relative importance, will ultimately sink any attempt to bring any trustable semanticness to the Web.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    1. Re:The real reason = Security by bbtom · · Score: 1

      The flipside to this is that the more 'varied' user agents are, the less susceptible they are to exploits. The Semantic Web - broadly understood - could find solutions to SEO. Search personalization and recommendation systems can go some way to neutralize SEO. My inbox on del.icio.us gets no spam at all, because the only people who can post things to it are people I trust. A web based on 'subscriptions' and pubic expressions of 'trust' will be a lot harder to spam and SEO.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  36. Anti-semantism by Grashnak · · Score: 1

    I categorically condemn these anti-semantic comments. There is no place in our modern, advanced society for bigots like these blatant anti-semantites. Someone should alert the ACLU.

    --
    Life needs more saving throws.
  37. wiki by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What if the semantic web were done in a wiki that anyone could edit? That would make it more accurate, I would think.

  38. As spoken by an anonymous coward last time... by Morgor · · Score: 1

    Will this mean that I will never be able to search for "Girls with breasts bigger than 36D"?

  39. Sighs... by Grismar · · Score: 1

    I used to love semantic Web 5.1, but I'm sorry to say it can't even handle the simplest Word. I wonder who will make the Web Perfect? We need a Novell idea, I think.

  40. I think the SW will be developed bottom up by MarkWatson · · Score: 1

    I recently read a critique of "weak" SW (the "lower case semantic web") techniques like microformats, etc. The idea was that we need a high level metadata standard.

    Contrary to this opinion:

    I recently wrote in my my AI blog about my expectations that the SW will develop from the bottom up. I also wrote about this 3 years ago (PDF "Jumpstarting the Semantic Web", skip to page 3).

    So, I partially agree with Stephen Downes that cooperation is unlikely, but the SW in some form will happen.

  41. true but... by CBravo · · Score: 1

    the author can sign those keywords. Second step is to keep a rating of this author somewhere. A bad author can be added to blacklists, a good author can be given extra karma.

    Lying cannot be expelled but people can recognize it.

    --
    nosig today
  42. There is a lot of work on this problem by KjetilK · · Score: 1
    Clearly, you haven't seen anything of what the academics have been doing. Of course, people brought along those lessons learned from the failures of HTML, which was partly because the data model was not clear, partly because it was indeed much to easy to abuse. Academics have of course discussed this at length. Indeed, some approaches have been rather academic, such as building everything on big PGP-based trust networks, but others are very practical.

    Right now, we're building semweb based trust metrics for email. I have allready plugins for SpamAssassin and Qpsmtpd, though they are for small scale stuff, we have like 25 million profiles we could use.

    For example, your concerns about digital camera reviews are addressed by Revyu.

    All in all, there is a lot of stuff going on in this area, both big forward-looking academic projects and practical implementations.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  43. Use Some Fucking Paragraphs by StonePiano · · Score: 1
    Hey buddy, I was enjoying your post until I lost my place!


    Every now and then, put <p> between the sentences.


    Like that, see? Then your post won't look like the fucking rosetta stone.

  44. RDF promotes interoperability and extensibility by Finin · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Stephen's argument is based on the belief that "The Semantic Web will never work because it depends on businesses working together, on them cooperating." He says:

    "But the big problem is they believed everyone would work together:
    • would agree on web standards (hah!)
    • would adopt a common vocabulary (you don't say)
    • would reliably expose their APIs so anyone could use them (as if)"
    While the argument he makes is grounded in his distrust of corporations, which I share to some degree, his second point above is off the mark, at least for RDF.

    One of the features of the W3C's model (based on RDF) is that it doesn't push the idea that everyone should adopt the same vocabulary (or ontology) for a topic or domain. Instead it offers a way to publish vocabularies with some semantics, including how terms in one vocabulary relate to terms in another. In addition, the framework makes it trivial to publish data in which you mix vocabularies, making statements about a person, for example, using terms drawn from FOAF, Dublin Core and others.

    The RDF approach was designed with interoperability and extensibility in mind, unlike many other approaches. RDF is showing increasing adoption, showing up in products by Oracle, Adobe and Microsoft, for example.

    If this approach doesn't continue to flourish and help realize the envisioned "web of data", and it might not after all, it will have left some key concepts, tested and explored, on the table for the next push. IMHO, the 'semantic web' vision -- a web of data for machines and their users -- is inevitable.

  45. Misconceptions and risk-aversion by KjetilK · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Well, if his first point was correct, the web wouldn't exist at all. Allthough there are lengthy fights in for example the HTML area, and it took a while to get RDF on a firm footing, semweb standardisation is actually moving pretty quickly now that we have the foundations.

    His second point is just a common misconceptions and FAQs. It doesn't require that people does that.

    I have just accepted a position with a consultancy that does a fair amount of work for those cut-throat businesses. And they are interested, very interested, in fact. Which is also why Oracle, IBM, HP, even Microsoft is interested.

    Typical use case for them is: So, you bought your competitor, and each of the companies sit on big valuable databases that are incompatible. You have huge data integration problem that needs solving fast. So, throw in an RDF model, which is actually a pretty simple model. Use the SPARQL query language. Now all employees have access to the data they need. Problem solved. Lots of money saved. Good.

    But this is not part of the open web, you say? Indeed, you're right. So, Semantic Web technologies have allready succeeded, but not on the open web. And since I'm such an idealist, I want it on the open web. So, the blog still has a valid point.

    We need to make compelling reasons why they should put (some) data on the open web. It isn't easy, but then, let TimBL tell you it wasn't easy to get them on the web in the first place. It is not very different, actually. The main approach to this is capitalise on network effects. There is a lot of public information, and we need to start with that.

    So, partly, that's what I'll do. We have emergent use cases, and that's the evil part of cut-throat business. You don't talk about those before they happen. So, sorry about that. I think it will be very compelling, but it'll take a few years. If you're the risk-averse kinda developer who first and foremost has a family to feed, then I understand that you don't want to risk anything, and you can probably jump on the bandwagon a couple of years from now, having lost relatively little.

    But if you, like me, like to live on the edge, and doesn't mind taking risks doing things that of course might fail, then I think semweb is one of most interesting things right now.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
    1. Re:Misconceptions and risk-aversion by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Yes, it's typical "argh! It's not happening!". Well, unless people take an interest and do something, of course it won't happen.


      The adoption problem needn't be. If companies and organisations are unwilling to put data up semantically, someone else will. We see this already with accessibility - in the UK, a replacement train times website has been built to replace the crappy National Rail website. I wrote a MySpace screen scraper recently so I wouldn't have to visit the profiles of my friends, and instead I could subscribe to RSS feeds. Semantic data will be available either officially or unofficially quicker than you would think...

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
  46. Great link! by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 1

    Wow, very cool. Thanks for the link, one of the coolest things I've seen in a good while. This addresses one of my biggest gripes with Wikipedia, unstructured data. Which is related to my other big gripe - that everything on Wikipedia is done manually. Being able to richly express properties and relationship between pages allows you to remove a huge amount of redundant data and tedious labor.

  47. This is not failure by ihandler · · Score: 2

    I think the problem is in the author's head. Difficulties always exist between vendors. They are worked out when the beneifts of cooperation outweigh the benefits of non-cooperation. I believe what we are calling the semantic web has other features that many consider failure but in reality are inherent to sharing the amount of information we are trying to share, namely, universal uniformity and a single clean interface into human civilization (which is really what the sm is) is impossible and foolish to hope for. The semantic web will make some things vastly easier and the price we will pay is that other things will become far more difficult. This will stimulate more innovations and hence more problems, etc.

    --
    Ivan Handler
  48. Physics Analogy by DorkRawk · · Score: 1

    Apart from the issues of semantic web relying on people to be unbiased, honest, and smart it seems like using this semantic idea to catalog everything is like using high school level general mechanics to describe the universe.

    It all works just fine as long as you don't want to talk about incline planes that have friction or springs that have mass. Describing lots of real things is messy.

    I think at this point we'd have a better shot at making machines think like people rather than trying to get people to think like machines.

  49. sighs louder by scotbot · · Score: 1

    * groan *

    Who didn't see that coming?

  50. Why it will fail. by ksd1337 · · Score: 1

    The reason this will not work is because businesses don't want to share information. They want to make as much money as they can from it. The Semantic Web will look appealing to smaller organizations and individuals, but businesses won't consider it.

    1. Re:Why it will fail. by DragonWriter · · Score: 1

      The reason this will not work is because businesses don't want to share information.


      The semantic web does not rely on businesses wanting to share information.

      It does rely on people wanting to make claims about resources, and people wanting to know what other people are claiming resources. Not that "people" may include, but is not limited to, "businesses".
  51. It will fail for other reasons too-No fun. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The way to realize the Semantic Web is to advance AI technology to the point where it becomes an automated process. Anything less would require too much manual labor to take off."

    Or you could make the process transparent by turning it into a game.

  52. You keep using that word...Either/Or by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "The semantic web is doomed to fail because language is far more highly personalized than anyone wants to believe. "

    That's why one uses Folksonomy in conjunction with Ontologies.

  53. Top Down? by PPH · · Score: 1
    Top down initiatives rarely work. The 'Web 2.0' is just such a grand scheme that will probably fail. On the other hand, the components of a semantic web already exist in limited domains and in several different versions. As they grow (from the bottom up), a process akin to evolution will select the fittest systems or hybrids of several. (This assumes that the cost of adopting certain systems' best attributes isn't driven too high by licensing restrictions.) The whole 'Web 2.0' thing just seems to be a big social club to which only a select group are invited.


    Once invited to the club, all of the members (Microsoft, Google, IBM, etc.) will be watching each other like hawks to make sure nobody breaks out ahead of the pack with some new technology. Because of this, I think that the various components that make up something like a semantic web will come from outsiders. Maybe from a couple of students at Stanford. Or more likely a start-up in Bangalore. They seem to be getting quite a lot of the data mining contract work and I'd bet that this expertise is what will grow into a web-wide product.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
  54. Now hold on a minute! by jambox · · Score: 0

    Well we're looking at this from a very bottom-up perspective (as us geeks are wont to do). Consider it a bit more top-down and you've got a very different outlook...

    A classic example of where the SW would be very helpful considers simple information interchange between two or three entities, each containing disparate but related data. Say you're sitting at your PC, when your boss schedules an offsite meeting for you. You get his email, which has the address of where you're meant to go. How about if your PC could look up this address automatically on the web, get a route, then Bluetooth it into your car's SatNav system?

    You can't currently do that because your email program doesn't know an address when it sees it, and your SatNav can't interpret a route created by, say, Multimap.

    Naturally, you could pick holes in that example (SatNav's can plot their own routes, I know) but it's illustrative nonetheless.

    We don't have to switch the entire web over to be semantic in a short period of time, but the technology should be available for when it would be useful. Then, as people adopt it, it will cause that paradigm shift people are talking about... albeit very slowly.

    --
    You thought you could break the laws of physics without paying the PRICE?
  55. RDF promotes family by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "While the argument he makes is grounded in his distrust of corporations, which I share to some degree, his second point above is off the mark, at least for RDF"

    The problem with this aspect of his argument is that companies ARE working together, even if they're not dragging the slashcrowd into their sphere. For example web services between suppliers and buyers. Or the sharing of data (remember it's exponentially growing) between equals. e.g. catalog.

    "The RDF approach was designed with interoperability and extensibility in mind, unlike many other approaches. RDF is showing increasing adoption, showing up in products by Oracle, Adobe and Microsoft, for example."

    You left out Mozilla. Yes it uses RDF internally.

  56. Muddled and complex are different problems by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think the big issue right now is that the computer industry doesn't even know what they mean by "Web 2.0" and the marketing departments hide their ignorance admirably by repeating buzzwords until people think they understand concepts they don't. Ok, Tim O'Reilly is careful to define such terms when he uses them (good for him!) but few others seem to do the same.

    At least with things like TCP/IP, relational database theory, information theory, and the like, the concepts are well defined, not some mishmash of marketing buzzwordspeak and sloppy definition. Of course, TCP/IP as it is now often taught (via OSI) is just as muddled even though the model is (and ought to be) clear as daylight. If people are going to cover OSI and TCP/IP they ought to cover the entire protocol ideas, design criteria, etc. That way people will *understand* why OSI protocols (like H.323) are so awkward when run on TCP/IP. [/rant]

    The big thing is, instead of having a vague marketing buzzword about something, it is helpful if we devide things into usable and practical concepts. Social networking, web services, service oriented architectures, semantic markup, etc. rather than lumping it all together into a vague term that doesn't really mean anything.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  57. Google already turned off its Search API by drgroove · · Score: 1

    Google already turned off its Search API for new registrations; only those already w/ accounts can continue using the web services-based search API. I believe their AJAX API, which is less useful, is still open.

  58. So Google is impossible? by TuringTest · · Score: 1

    The thing the academics who push the web search fail to consider (most of the time) is that the Real World does not function like their Ideal World. In the Ideal World, everybody cooperates and works together to produce something of value for all mankind. So we get lots of correctly and appropriately hyperlinked pages that give useful information on what's stored therein.

    But in the Real World, any online system that is used by a large enough number of people will eventually become attractive for spammers and scammers to defile and twist to their own purposes. So you'll get a deluge of pages that appear to be useful reviews of digital cameras (and are hyperlinked as such) but in fact simply go to a useless "search" page that has lots of link farm references.

    And if you say "Ok, so we don't trust the author of the page, we have someone else do it"... then who? Who's going to do all the work? Answer: Nobody. AI is nowhere near being smart enough for this. Keyword searching is, unfortunately, here to stay. If you trust the author to do the markup, then the spammers have a field day. If you say "Only trusted authors" then the system will still fail, due to laziness on most people's part - if a system isn't trivial to implement and involves some kind of "authentication" or "authorization" then nobody will use it, period. The Web succeeded in the first place because anybody anywhere could just stick up a Web server and publish pages, and it was immediately visible to the whole world.

    The web search will fail for the same reason that the "meta" tag failed in HTML: Any system that can be abused by spammers, will be abused.

    So, the web search, which is all about helping people find stuff, will fail. Not because of any technological shortcomings (it's all very nice in theory), but simply because we as people won't work together to make it work. Well, a small number of people could work together, but as that number got larger, until it reaches the point of being useful, it will automatically get to the tipping point where it becomes worthwhile for the spammers to jump in and foul it all up.

    --
    Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
  59. Again -- sounds cool but... by snowwrestler · · Score: 1

    What web 2.0 and the semantic web can do together is better than #1 and #2. Instead of a dedicated team of 20 you get a completely arbitrary and undedicated team of 20 million doing their best to tag content with keywords.

    But how do you get them to do it? That is the hardest part. If they're not dedicated, I doubt they will be doing their best. BTW I mean (and meant) "dedicated" in the emotional sense, not the tasking sense.

    It's not hard to aggregate one small group of people in the entire world who LOVE hamsters and will build out the ultimate hamster Web page, or at least a good hamster resource. In fact due to targeted advertising there is sometimes a monetary reward for such focused effort.

    It's considerably harder (for me anyway) to imagine that everyone who ever looks at any Web page about hamsters will bother clicking in and adding or editing tags. Most Web surfers are just passive.

    In addition the good tags will only drown out the bad for the most popular subjects. For niche assets where there might only be a few tag edits in total, it only takes a few bad tags to pollute the usefulness. The long tail suffers the most.
    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  60. Pages are all there is - legally by warm+sushi · · Score: 1

    "I don't care about pages, I want information, answers to questions."

    In a world where just linking to another site can be illegal you expect to get information out of context?

    Ironically enough I found this in one quick Google search using "deep linking violates copyright", along with a list of alternative sources about the same topic.

  61. semantic is no good at nothing... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The reason Semantic will fail is because they have the anti-midas touch. Look what they did to Ghost and to BackupExec and Norton etc etc. The list goes on. I don't understand Semantic any more...

  62. Inecitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The semantic web is inevitable. It is already being used in subgroups of users of the web: intranets, biology, semantic wikis etc.
    Does anyone really NOT want to see the web develop to its full potential? Is there any other direction the advancement of the web could take?