Slashdot Mirror
Another Anti-Terror List Impacting Businesses, Customers
HangingChad writes "MSNBC is running a story about yet another government database designed to thwart terrorists and drug dealers that is having impact on people with similar names. Like a no-fly list for businesses, the Office of Foreign Asset Control's list of 'specially designated nationals' has been used in the past by banks and other financial institutions to block financial transactions of drug dealers and other criminals. Use of the list was expanded after 9-11 and now includes almost any financial transaction. Moreover, there is no minimum amount of money attached to penalties for selling to someone on the list: selling a sandwich to a 'specially designated national' can have a fine for up to '$10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison.' The article goes on: 'Businesses have used it to screen applicants for home and car loans, apartments and even exercise equipment, according to interviews and a report by the Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights of the San Francisco Bay area to be issued today.'"
But seriously, what really sucks about this list is that it has never been widely publicized. A would venture to guess that the VAST majority of businesses in the U.S. have never even heard of it, yet could find themselves doing business with someone on it, even in a minor capacity (and facing jail time as a result).
At the other, equally disturbing, end of the spectrum, we have even tiny businesses facing the possibility of just having to completely block out anyone on it (since they don't have the time or resources to verify if this is *THE* Hassad Al-Gurandi), locking many innocent people out of even the most basic business transaction. The law puts the burden of verification almost completely on businesses themselves, leaving them little alternative. The Treasury Department, when asked about this, ducks out of it with a lame "Hey, call the guys who made the screening software, not us."
The Treasury Dept. needs to either own up to this or abolish it. If they're going to have this, they need to provide an easy, quick way to both verify someone on it and and equally easy way to get off it, if you are wrongly included.
Right now it sounds like yet another law the government can threaten businesses with, even if they've never even heard of it. Ignorance of the law may be no excuse. But when the government is knowingly hiding the laws, it should be.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
Does this mean that {free} online services based out of US, like gmail.com, youtube.com, slashdot.org too have to screen users requesting an account soon?
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
The list is at: http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/sd n/sdnlist.txt
Want to check for your name?
Slashdot Burying Stories About Slashdot Media Owned
This will be the difference between ill-advised economic protectionism that may adversely affect the computing/IT sector, and making a significant impact on countries that indirectly support terrorism. If we're serious about combating terrorism, only Muslim countries with sectarian influence at government level should be on the list. And since the Wahabi ideology behind terrorism come from Saudi Arabia, that would mean the oil Arabs should go on the list too.
I love the possible penalties for a $10. It is akin to sending Padillia (an American) to gitmo. America really is out of control. It is time to take back our liberties and rights. Hopefully, the ballot box works in 2008, because I think that we have already lost the jury box, and that will leave only 1 more option.
I bought a car about 6 months ago, and I ran into this. Even though I was paying straight cash, they demanded my SSN so they could run a credit report. They said that they needed to run a credit report to see if I was on this list. I argued with them that I was paying cash, they didn't needed my SSN, etc., but it was late and I eventually relented just to keep the process moving. I had never heard of the list before, so I wasn't very prepared to put up a good argument. Later when I got home I found that the list was online. That made me even more angry, both at the dealership and at myself for not knowing better.
Don't give up your SSN to people who don't need it!
So if you haven't got an English-sounding name, you must have one of the Muslim names on this list? Don't think so.
"Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." ('Atlas Shrugged' 1957)
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Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Amendment 5 - Trial and Punishment, Compensation for Takings.
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment 6 - Right to Speedy Trial, Confrontation of Witnesses.
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
So one is denied a livelhood by being placed on a list without a trial and without an open forum to defend against such accusations.
I love USSR, ummm, USA, USA, USA!
Is there any actual evidence that unwittingly selling a sandwich to someone on this list would actually put a deli owner in legal jeopardy?
Those who would trade freedom for security deserve neither
Just kidding, this quote shows up on every one of these discussions. Please mod insightful
Worst. Sig. Ever.
On a brighter note, it looks like Slobodan Milosevic won't be getting a car loan here in the states any time soon: MILOSEVIC, Slobodan; DOB 20 Aug 1941; POB Pozarevac, Serbia and Montenegro; ex-FRY President; ICTY indictee in custody (individual) [BALKANS]
These are all foreign nationals and do not have any inherent right to do business in the US.
If you apply for any sort of credit they'll ask for proof of citizenship/residency and bypass this list. If you can't provide either, sucks to be you. Apply for credit in Iran.
Also, nobody has ever been jailed for selling a fucking sandwich to the wrong guy. That's just FUD.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
What I love about articles like this is the attempt at "balance". Notice that there are three or four examples of people who are wrongly denied services (of the how many thousand cases that have transpired?). And to "balance" this, they give what was probably the only case in history where such a check might have been relevant (at the end of the article). And even in that case, denying him a car wouldn't have changed anything. It isn't as if he couldn't take the bus to the airport.
Although this article isn't as bad as some (for example, most articles on global warming or evolution), it is a typical example of how trying to provide "balance" gives people the wrong impression of how likely different events are (i.e., in the article 4 false positives to one real hit, in reality probably many thousands of false positives to one real hit).
That's great, unless you live in a place like I do in Southeast Texas (or probably most of the small towns in the south). People here are always making comments like "you never know, they could be a terrorist" or using what they call 'racial profiling' as an excuse to promote their prejudiced ways. Note: They call it racial profiling, (not political groups, but the rednecks I hear this from) so as not to sound racist. I call that a failure and a coverup. Their actions and statements reinforce their true beliefs. "Most businesses" around here are either not intellegent enough or biased against people to begin with, giving them a list (read: excuse) won't help matters any.
http://wstewart.php0h.com - the sugarbuzz project blog
That's exactly the sort of response I would expect. Although there's no mention of the list being of exclusively Arabic-sounding names, YOUR immediate assumption is that that's what it is. Or insert-whatever-the-TV-says-the-current-world-evil -is sounding names.
Work smarter, not harder.
The use of this list in war ("War on Terror") isn't new. Regardless of the merits of this war, the gem below is from http://www.treas.gov/offices/enforcement/ofac/faq/ answer.shtml.
How long has OFAC been around?
The Treasury Department has a long history of dealing with sanctions. Dating back prior to the War of 1812, Secretary of the Treasury Gallatin administered sanctions imposed against Great Britain for the harassment of American sailors. During the Civil War, Congress approved a law which prohibited transactions with the Confederacy, called for the forfeiture of goods involved in such transactions, and provided a licensing regime under rules and regulations administered by Treasury.
OFAC is the successor to the Office of Foreign Funds Control (the ``FFC''), which was established at the advent of World War II following the German invasion of Norway in 1940. The FFC program was administered by the Secretary of the Treasury throughout the war. The FFC's initial purpose was to prevent Nazi use of the occupied countries' holdings of foreign exchange and securities and to prevent forced repatriation of funds belonging to nationals of those countries. These controls were later extended to protect assets of other invaded countries. After the United States formally entered World War II, the FFC played a leading role in economic warfare against the Axis powers by blocking enemy assets and prohibiting foreign trade and financial transactions.
OFAC itself was formally created in December 1950, following the entry of China into the Korean War, when President Truman declared a national emergency and blocked all Chinese and North Korean assets subject to U.S. jurisdiction. [05-02-06]
Full disclosure: I make money by providing software to automatically manage the SDN list for companies that do international trade. You'd be surprised how many people qualify for "hits" against this list and how much manual work needs to be done to clear them.
By far the list comprises mostly the names of Muslims. I don't even have a TV. Do YOU have any idea how bad groups like Jamaah Islamiya are? Their supporters deserve to be shot on sight, not sold a sandwich by people who think the terrorist threat is just some kind of mass entertainment. It is bloody hard to combat this sort of enemy - they don't wear uniforms or seem out of the ordinary in any way. And yes, there are millions called "Khan", but out of them, a few are EXTREMELY dangerous. They have a history of this and so let's not grow any more of them. Yeah I know I'll get stick for this but I'm gonna stand up for the guys who do the utterly thankless job of fighting the war on terror.
All you need to circumvent these lists is a fake ID.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
Well, not funny to the people who are caught by it.
The "current" list has a modification date of "3/7/2007", but it still has Saddam Hussein on the list. Yes, that Saddam Hussein. The one who was hung last year. He is listed as being president of Iraq since 1979.
So, if Saddam Hussein comes out of the grave as an undead zombie and visits the United States he will need to use a new alias if he wants to get a mortgage.
That makes me feel much safer.
How long till that list gets hacked and the whole House of Representatives gets added to it? ;)
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
If I were a terrorist I'd have this list sync'ed on my PDA to remind me to use a fake ID which is NOT on the list
That way I could buy some exercise equipment without exposing myself
"It's a world much like our own, yet much unlike it. A twisted mirror of reality, in which a man can find himself cast out, made invisible by public acclamation, belonging no longer to society, but only to the gray reaches... of the Twilight Zone."
The Twilight Zone (1985): "To See the Invisible Man"
Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
This note is legal tender for ALL debts, public and private. (emphasis mine) -- US $1 Bill
If someone receive a NSL, he needs to shut up because of the security risk if the investigated person knows (I can undersqtand to a certain extend), but a federal agency is publically giving away a plaintext list of a lot of people they are monitoring. Am I the only one who finds that weird?
One day the 'specially designated nationals' will have to sit in the back of the bus.
My apologies to the people who I may offend now, but these measures are getting more and more ridiculous by the day (just like it was rediculious that people based on skin color had to sit in the back of the bus), and nobody is doing anything about it (yet).
Privacy is terrorism.
Read this before getting all self-righteous about your so-called "war on terror". There's only one organization terrorizing and killing thousands of people at the moment: the Coalition of the Willing.
Work smarter, not harder.
Well then, there are sure a lot of individuals in Iraq blowing up themselves with their neighbors and setting off charges in Mosques, and kniving or shooting people who are unarmed among the population. Who is doing the kidnapping then, if they are not organized? So the artillery shells slamming into neighborhoods are not organized terror threat at all either? You are so wrong.
There's the old line:
Since I'm a law-abiding citizen, I see no problem with government surveillance, wiretaps-without-warrants, etc. They NEED these things to fight TERRORISM!!!
Are you SURE you're a law-abiding citizen? Do you know about this "Anti-Terror List?" How about the other Anti-Terror List, and that other one, over there? Do you KNOW for sure that everyone you've ever done any sort of business with is not on one of these lists, especially the secret ones that you're not allowed to see?
Then maybe you're not really a law-abiding citizen, you just don't and can't know it, at least not until WE want to tell you.
By the way, have you ever had sex using any technique other than missionary position? If so, depending on which state you live in, you may have committed a crime!
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
You don't even have to look as far as the bill of rights on this one. It's in the Constitution. Look it up on wikipedia or on the net itself. Or check out the text of the Constitution.
Hanging by a thread yet? Still?
Terror is synonym for fear.
"anti-terror list" makes no sense unless you are distinguishing fearful people.
Likewise, a "war on terror" would end if less people were afraid.
Now OK, you say there's an organization killing and terrorizing thousands of people, but if I disagree with you about this where do we stand? Are you going to use your beliefs (from that blog or elsewhere) to hack my computer? Threaten me personally? Do you see what I mean about this? That blog just supports what I've been saying all along. Blogging in this situation is a strategy, and you're either on one side or the other.
To thwart terrorists, if it was within my power I would shut down the blog and have the blogger arrested and interrogated. Then I would undoubtedly find (after some tough interrogation) that he has connections to people in Europe and USA supporting him with his use of technology and the media to support his cause. Taking them out and off the streets would make the world a safer place in which there would be no nasty incidents.
And something smells funny specifically this part
"Shinnick was finally released around 11:30 p.m., after his father paid $4,500 of $45,000 in bail. Within 24 hours, the district attorney's office dropped all charges against Shinnick.
In July, a San Francisco Superior Court judge ruled that Shinnick was innocent by "findings of fact" -- a decision that essentially erases all record of the case.
But by this time, Shinnick said, he'd spent about $14,000 clearing his name. He wanted that money back and he felt BofA should pay it. "
The charges were dropped, but he went to court anyway? Huh? And the money he spent defending himself from what? Charges that were dropped already?
What's missing here? Something just doesn't add up.
Funny how the name "Ted Kennedy" keeps showing up on these lists...
It's just about here. You will not be able to buy or sell *anything* (legally) without being branded with "The Mark". If you refuse to take the mark, then you must be a terrorist and that will get you added to the list.
Perhaps the religious wackos aren't so wacko after all, because every fucking wacko thing they predicted is slowly but surely coming true.
Wow. if that list is heavy enough, such an impact could could serious injury. Who's throwing it around in such a careless manner anyway? I guess their mother never told them its not nice to throw things at people.
I wonder if this list has had an effect on average law-abiding citizens? Probably not if it is only impacting on businesses, it will just hit the glass or brick and fall harmlessly to the ground.
"using emotive tactics in a dangerous situation, which posits its premises as fact but without a shred of evidence or counter-testimony"?
Sounds like the reasons the U.S. invaded in the first place.
Work smarter, not harder.
Yes, we'd be SO much safer without such a list
MSNBC is running a story about yet another government database designed to thwart terrorists and drug dealers
Drug dealers? So if I buy a Walgreens or a CVS or other drug store my name gets on this list?
</snarky>
OK, now that I've had my little laugh, a legitimate question: Why are (illegal) drug dealers equated with terrorists? Why just drug dealers, why not pimps and gambling establishments?
In other words, why is a victimless crime equated with bloody mayhem that is designed to cause political change? Every time another story like this comes out I'm more inclined to join the tinfoil hat brigade that thinks our (our? ha! The corporations') own government was behind 9-11.
Instead of going opt-out, we go opt-in.
Anyone who isn't a terrorist receives some kind of permanent identification - say, on the forehead or on the hand - which would enable you to engage in these transactions without concern that the person you're dealing with is a terrorist, drug dealer, etc.
The good and new comes from no quarter where it is looked for, and is always something different from what is expected.
...by preventing a terrorist from getting any money to repair his car, then of course I'm all for it.
What if we let him fix his car and then he drives it into a skyscraper?
My business was contacted over a year ago by an organization on this list, looking to purchase web hosting. They had provided a credit card and it was automatically authorized. (but funds were not captured) I recognized the website as being that of a rebellion army listed by the USA and the EU as being a terrorist organization. They were at the time being hosted with another US-based company.
I had thought that providing services to them would be a double-edged sword. I did not have any particular interest in hosting a terrorist site, but I do not believe in censorship. Additionally, I suspected that such sites would be a good source of information for their enemies. (such as the US) On the other hand, there could be a legal danger of providing such services. Having myself worked for another hosting company that had itself hosted Al Qaeda's website during 9/11, I knew that this was no laughing matter.
Concerned, I contacted Homeland Security and the Department of Defence, which referred me to the FBI. The FBI expressed interest in this enough to have me speak with an agent via telephone. They requested to meet me in person, but due to string of bank robberies, they didn't have the time to follow through, and finally told me (by phone) that they had no problem with my company accepting money from this organization and providing services to them.
In the end, I thought it was too risky, only having a verbal confirmation of such, and decided to reject this customer. It was a few months afterwards, that I discovered this list, which was never mentioned to me by any of the discussed government agencies. At that time, I was happy to have rejected the business, but was angry that I was mislead into believing that I could safely conduct business with that organization.
In this case, I had gone through all the official channels I thought were neccessary and wise, and yet, if I had followed their advice, I would have been breaking the law! Heck, just by corresponding with these people, I likely broke some law or another. I'm quite certain at this point, that by running a small-business, esspecially online, you're just asking for reasons to be put into Guantanamo. Not that they need reasons, anymore.
At no time was I told that I shouldn't discuss this matter, so I assume that I'm free to do so, although I probably shouldn't make such assumptions.
RENT-A-CAR, S.A., Panama [CUBA] - all the cars are from the 50's!
SIMMA DOWN NOW! YA HERE?
Moreover, there is no minimum amount of money attached to penalties for selling to someone on the list: selling a sandwich to a 'specially designated national' can have a fine for up to '$10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison.' Shoot, and I had this great idea to set up a chain of fast-food falafel and shwarma shops in the Afghani Highlands. Meh, I probably would have gotten sued anyway, I was going to call it "Kabul Falafel City".
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
Assuming the car cost more than $10,000 (do any new cars still sell for less than this?), the car dealer was required to get your SSN to comply with the law. See the IRS' explanation at http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id= 159755,00.html.
You could have given them the SSN while still explicitly prohibiting them from running a credit report. That's what I did when I bought my last car with "cash" (cashier's check).
I notice the list has ABU ALI (a.k.a. AL-TIKRITI, Saddam Hussein; a.k.a. HUSAYN, Saddam; a.k.a. HUSSAIN, Saddam; a.k.a. HUSSEIN, Saddam); DOB 28 Apr 1937; POB al-Awja, near Tikrit, Iraq; nationality Iraq; named in UNSCR 1483; President since 1979 (individual) [IRAQ2]
...my employer's building our Americas office in Canada, rather than the US. Our execs just got sick of the bullshit involved in getting in and out of the country. It's only 40 jobs of course but... I wouldn't be surprised if there's a significant uptick in the Canadian economy, compared with the US, over the next few years.
is that ANY supporter of an 'Axis of Evil'(TM) regime could publiclly announce on the Web that he was.. oh, going to subsidise a bombing attack on the White House, and get his name on the list.
Of course, he could announce his name as anything he likes. George Bush? Perhaps a better plan would be a common American name, or, better, a common African American name.
You could stop quite a lot of commerce in its tracks, and ruin airways using this DOS attack.
I know that there is a general negativity hear towards Christian beliefs. (more of a negativity towards organized religion in general without general bias against Christians, but I digress) There is also a general knowledge of biblical stories and prophecies. This immediately strikes a cord with me from Revelations: (13:17) "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name."
10 years ago this was hard for me to imagine how we could ever get to such a place in history. Now given the methods employed or tenuous holds on on freedoms and "self-evident truths" it is easy to see the path. Lists of bad guys are not all that effective, bad guys (terrorists) o not submit themselves to mis-identification nor do they willfully register themselves. There is no automation (for Joe CashRegister) to check the list and worse business are left with the difficult (and dangerous) task of validating a customers claim in cases of identification. The biggest danger of course is racial prejudice. We must make America free (I mean safe) for all Americans. The best solution of course is a national-id card. Anyone wishing to do commerce will simply need an inexpensive card reader and a phone/cell line or a connection to the internet. We'll make it easy to tie your bank/credit card accounts to to you ID card so those less secure/safe (and potentially illegal) methods of monetary transfers need not be used. Even yard-sales can be secured. We will of course need to be wary of anyone handling large amounts of cash. Fore those individuals are either fragrantly disregarding their civic duty to protect and uphold the laws of this country or they are simply an out and out criminal and/or terrorist.
Gone to my happy place.
Everyone within the sound of your voice: fear for your rights, for your health, for your very sanity. Slashdot has entered the practice of law.
Name your children after American Presidents and religious scholars. Don't convert to Islam (that'll probably be a crime eventually anyway). If you're an innocent Christian American citizen then after verifying your history and religion I'm sure that courts won't have a problem giving you a proper American name.
That sounds a bit like Nazi Germany don't it?
Allah Snakhbar
FTW
Sure, it would be sad if someone innocent was mixed up in a case of mistaken identity, but something has to be done to stop these guys... some of the entries read like a demon's resume:
NEAL, COWBOY (a.k.a. COWBOYNEAL; a.k.a. PATER, Johnathan); DOB 30 Jul 57; POB Moscow, Soviet Russia; (individual); citizen Iran; alt. citizen Libya; arrested 1 Apr 2003; escaped 2 Apr 2003; Slashdot number 4 (United States); wanted for small arms trafficking, conspiracy to commit nuclear terrorism, attempted presidential assassination, indecency with a goat [SDT] [SDGT]
So is this another step towards punishing people who, in probably many cases of those on the "list", have committed no actual crime? They are just suspected of it.
So much for the principle of innocent until proven guilty.
Perhaps if those who make these decisions and laws had to actually live by the laws and decisions they impose on others things might improve.
and just you wait... when this malarkey has been in place for a few months and people are really, really mad at the queues... they'll introduce this nice smart handy RFID implant that allows you to breeze through the checks by just presenting the implant in the back of your right hand...
Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
Before people start saying - "I can't even sell a sandwich to John W. Lind", just remember, lots of financial transactions for property occur under the radar. If your parents "give" you a car, chances are they officially sold it to you for $10. The same holds true for other property transactions - if your parents estate includes a land "transfer", the lawyers involved may have the executor sell the land to you for $10. Some states stipulate what the minimum purchase price is, others don't. YMMV.
Besides the fact that this list is onerous to say the least, has anyone explored the implications for US citizens who work for foreign companies? The way the law is written could open the doors for abuse against US workers who may unwittingly violate the law by performing their duties. This is not just workers who are stationed in the US, but also those who work overseas. Could a US citizen be prosecuted in the US for doing his/her job while living in another country? At the very least, this could have a serious chilling effect on Job opportunities for US citizens around the world...
Coldmoon over Dark water...
BTW.This list is consolidated with some others at the "Excluded Party List System" at http://www.epls.gov/ . That list also contains people who have defrauded the government (amongst other things) and have been debarred from federal contracts.
Since there is some concern here about false positives, here is an explanation of what the system is and what they say to do when you get a match:
So you see, people are not denied just because their name "sounds foreign" or by way of casual misidentification. The Government personnel are directed to perform due diligence to ascertain that they are really dealing with a SDN before taking any action.
i mean do really think any drug dealer,terrorist is going to use there real name? I mean if they know the government is after them then they will use a different name at every turn and keep the times they need to use ID to a minimum not like its hard fake these things if you have money I mean. or they will stay out of the USA all together.
that we did not catch enough terrorists. I am pretty sure there is some James Smith, or John Johnson, or Robert Williams, or Tim McVeigh walking around ready to 'splode some buildings.
There must be. Otherwise they will keep doing this.
I do not believe in karma. "Funny"=-6. Do good and forbid evil. Yours, Oft-Offtopic Flamebaiting Troll.
Also, nobody has ever been jailed for selling a fucking sandwich to the wrong guy. That's just FUD.
No, it isn't. The fact that there is no minimum dollar amount merchants are supposed to concern themselves with is quite typical of the American style of legislation. You make a law that's ridiculously sweeping and could probably apply to anybody. You only really enforce it when you think it matters, but that ability to go after someone for a minor thing is always looming in the background.
You're right that nobody has yet been prosecuted for selling a sandwich. But all it takes is one snivelling DA to get pissed off about something unrelated, and use this as an excuse to hassle a deli owner (for example).
It hasn't happened yet, but this sort of thing happens all the time. Consider traffic law; does anybody really give a damn that your tag light is out? If you're in daylight it doesn't matter and if it's night, and you're close enough to actually read the thing, then presumably you also have headlights trained on it, so what's the difference? The law is there as a "last resort" option for cops and prosecutors -- gives them an excuse to pull you over and make you miserable for a while or try to find something more serious with which they can nail you. Same with annual tag renewals. If you think it doesn't happen, you've been living in a cave.
Pointing out that a law has potential for abuse is never FUD.
mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
Up to this day i have restrained myself from speaking like this, and even defended u.s. position saying that mistakes and mishaps can happen in democratic processes, however that really does it.
...
considering u.s. public voted the idiots who are behind all these charades into power, the bush & co, and considering there are still a goodly number of people who are supporting the party behind these, the republicans, it can be said that a GREAT deal of americans in united states are utterly and plainly STUPID.
my apologies to democrats, liberals, libertarians, hippies, techies and such, but i had to say this : you are living among a sea of STUPID people.
plainly stupid
Read radical news here
You want a good "Atlas Shrugged" quote? here's my favorite: "the band on the wrist of her naked arm gave her the most feminine of all aspects: the look of being chained." Yeah, Ayn had some serious sexual issues. Not that there's anything wrong with BDSM, heck, I like slapping around a willing playmate now and then, but Ayn is seriously messed up with all her non-consensual sex fantasies and homophobia. As writer Jenny Turner wrote in a review of one of Ayn's biographies:
More insight into the dark and twisted world of Ayn's sexuality here.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Ah, that age old dream and nightmare of complete control
And [the Antichrist] causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save [except] he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Translated as:
there is no minimum amount of money attached to penalties for selling to someone on the list: selling a sandwich to a 'specially designated national' can have a fine for up to '$10 million and 10 to 30 years in prison.'
How nice.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
the rest of us can fight terrorism by not being terrified. By mocking terrorists we're showing that they're really not achieving their goals. Go outside and declare that you're not afraid; keep flying in planes, keep going on underground trains, keep buying exercise equipment.
And protest this fucking list as an expensive, impractical and unAmerican capitulation and violation of the US constitution.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
There appears to be no requirement to notify of the location of these people. So they are not sought and apparently allowed to be here?
So long as they stand in one place outside and starve to death ?!?
How many terrorists have been detected, arrested, prosecuted and jailed because of the list?
100, 30, 10, 3, 1, none?
The only measure of success is terrorists captured. You can't assume that a lack of attacks is because of a measure like this; the terrorists may just be having a long vacation.
You always complain about how "Windoze" is useless because it ships without a spell checker - why don't you try using yours for a change?
No. Terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology. The goal of terrorism is to get something else changed by frightening people into allowing it. For example, the goal of ETA was to frighten enough people into forcing the Spanish government to allow Basque independence. If they could have done that by giving away cotton candy they would have done that instead, but they apparently had doubts about its efficacy. Terror is just the means to the end.
That doesn't mean I support curtailing civil liberties to fight terrorism; quite the contrary. But there is already more than enough fuzzy thinking about what terrorism is
Write Only Memory: Another pointless blog.
Hustlers exist solely through charity. I see their scams, lies, and deceit: I'm too charitable to outright shoot them.
Here are the Census Bureau's lists of the most common first and last names.
It's fun to do the math. Remember when a "David Nelson"- one criminal of concern- was on the No Fly List (Perhaps he still is)? His being there put all the 5,000 other David Nelsons on the list. Assuming that each David Nelson flies just twice a year, then well over a year's worth of person-hours were wasted- each time they flew, over and over again- on confirming that the 5,000 weren't the one guy. Time lost to security, and time lost to the Nelsons- who also had the pleasure of being treated like a potential criminal in front of family, friends and fellow passengers.
But at least with flying there's a defined process known to the limited number of players (airlines, TSA) for dealing with a match. If the airline follows it, then they're clear, end of problem, no liability.
In contrast, with the Treasury list, if a match shows up, how can the business know it's really done everything it needs to do? The easy-out for 10's of millions of businesses might be to just not deal with the person at all.
So, this U.S. Treasury list:
"Maria Gonzalez"-- there's likely at least 4,000 in the US (probably far more- I used overall percentages multiplied rather than Prob(firstname) given (lastname))
"Jose Gonzalez" -- 3,200.
"Oscar Hernandez"--700
"Manual Diaz" or "Rosa Diaz" --500 each
And then the list seems to have plenty of the most common Chinese surnames.
Shut the fuck up.
I think freedom of speech covers this list pretty simply.
No, the Bill of Rights does not apply to government institutions and can't for obvious reasons. A law must be justified and passed before government can spend your money publishing a list. Once mandated, that list may not violate people's rights, such as the right to fair and speedy justice or freedom from race or religious based discrimination. Likewise, there is no government right to privacy as all public spending should be transparent, or government freedom of religion because the government must never advocate any religion over others, and so on and so forth.
Threatening people with massive fines and jail time for accidentally selling a sandwitch to a suspect will cause a lot of pain and suffering for innocent people. It will cause sellers to discriminate against people with similar names. The idea itself is similar to the ancient Roman exile, where the proscripted were denied all comfort, fire and water within the empire - so that they had to leave, starve or live in the woods like a hermit. The difference in this case is that the proscribed are suspected rather than convicted offenders.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
This quote might be relevant. But the rest of her shitty books and philosophy are not.
Depends on what subject you're measuring relevance against.
Objectivism has a very important use: It explains, in connected logic understandable by even moderately intelligent psycopaths, how obeying some basic rules of civilized behavior are profitable for them personally.
Teaching Objectivism is the ONLY (non-religious) "treatment" that has a track record of reforming a significant fraction of hardened criminals.
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Since when does the federal government have the right to regulate who can do business with whom? "Interstate commerce" wasn't enough to regulate the sale or status of a slave--it took a Constitutional amendment to give Congress that power. How can "interstate commerce" possibly cover this?
the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
The OFAC has been around since the 1950's and the functionality has been around since at least the 1930s.
IIRC the list was used to stop funding of German and Jap. spies during WW2.
And at first the funds/messages are quarantined, then hand checked, much like how antivirus software works.
It also keys off multiple fields in a transaction message not just name.
So Pablo Escobar(19) in Detroit is less likely to be flagged than Pablo Escobar(actual age of Pablo when/if alive)in Switzerland(or other financial havens) or some place in South America.
And selling a sandwich does not figure into the OFAC strategy, it only figures in to wiring money, or establishing an account with a financial institution.
Now when an Abu Saif plant uses paypal to buy something off you, paypal is liable for the checking against the OFAC list, and subject to a fine if they allow the transaction to take place, not you who sold him a hello kitty cockring LNIB.
KHHAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN!!!!!
I don't know if i should be posting my story, but here it goes:
I was awarded a grant to study at an american university (I'm spanish). I opened a paypal account in order to purchase some skype credit(international calls are a lot cheaper with skype, and my mother didnt like email and wanted to hear my voice). Paypal is the only way to purchase skype credit, or at least it was one year ago.
After a few months, and without more movements on the paypal account, I received the following email:
At that time, I had no idea of what the SDN list was; judging by the name I thought that it was a register for unpaid loans or something like that. I googled it, and when i saw entries like "sinn fein" or "the bank of iran" , well, I started to grow a bit scared.
I ran many searchs looking for my name, or something 'similar' to my name. The combination name+surname don't appear in the list. I am not in the list. However, both my name and my surname appear if you look for them individually. But, this is also the case for 99+% of the spanish names. (In case you don't know, we spaniards use two surnames, one from our father and one from our mother, and always identify ourselves using both in order to avoid this type of confussions, since the number of surnames actually in use is not very high)
However, the entries that scared me most were on the like of "askatasuna" (the basque terrorist separatist group). I do not fear to be mistaken for a arab terrorist, since I am obviously not arab, and neither fear to be mistaken for a south american drug traficker or a cuban revolutionary since I'm european and I can prove it with my passport. European terrorism, however, is something to be reckoned.
The problem was that when I received the email I was back in Spain. So the question arose: What to do now? Should i mail all my personal info to Paypal?
Complying with (1) and (3)(passport and birth certificate) is easy, provided that they can read spanish. I could also mail a copy of my visa to be sure. Complying with (2)(bills) is trickier: I have US utility bills, but since I no longer live in the US, somebody else is living at my former apartment. I have spanish utility bills to demonstrate that i am now in spain, but, what use would that be? if I'm now in Spain, i shouldn't have a US paypal account in the first place. I should mail all my info, both utility bills, explain my story and ask them to close the account (which was being unused for half a year by the time)
Besides, I think that the responsability of this mess lies in me: i should have closed my paypal account prior to leaving usa, like I did with my bank account, phone number, etc. Now the account info is incorrect, and i can't change or delete it because i have no access to it.
Moreover, what use would be the info to they, if I
Think twice about what you do. Someday you have to account at least to yourself.
Fortunately, not all the religious wackos are that kind of wacko.
but is that authentication system your sales cr3w says is going to make the company a million really okay?
joudanzuki
Can net you a fine?
WTF is going on here.. Have we all lost our minds?
---- Booth was a patriot ----
impact != effect The effect (noun) of the meteor's impact (object striking another) was devastating. The blast affected (verb) the power grid for miles.
Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
If you were paying in actual cash federal reserve notes, they needed your SSN to fill out a cash transaction report, assuming your car cost more than 10 grand.
Other than that, I can't think of why they would need your SSN other than their own misunderstanding of the law. I know that I did not provide my SSN when I last bought a car, but I last bought a car before 9/11 (I drive cars into the ground), so I wouldn't really know.
I would have walked out.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock