Valve Hoping For 360/PC Play, Scared of PS3 Online

Valve's movement to the console space has been slow, but this year will see the release of Half-Life 2 on both the 360 and PS3. They seem to be having mixed reactions to that move. On the one hand (according to CVG), they're very much hoping that 360/PC crossplay will be possible for their upcoming Team Fortress 2. On the other hand (according to Game Informer and 1up), their reaction to the PS3's online component is one of fear. Valve's Marketing representative Doug Lombardi: "PS3 is brand new and PS3's online is kind of scary so we're hoping that EA is going to be a strong partner for us. (laughs) It's always the scariest thing when it's not all yours. With the PC it's all ours, Steam is all ours, code's ours, game's ours. On 360 we're making it, we've made it before, we know what the Live thing is, although it's Microsoft's so we kind of know it. PS3 we're not building it, we haven't made a PS3 title before, and we don't really know what PS3 online really is. It's always the devil you don't know that you're the most scared of."

Comments

The devil you do know

[jhfry]

It's always the devil you don't know that you're the most scared of." I'd say sometimes it's the devil you DO know that you should be most scared of.

I have to say, that when I don't know someone/something, I am typically very open minded and positive. Whereas, approaching an entity I know I can't trust (like MS) I am always very nervous.

Re:The devil you do know

[drinkypoo]

I have to say, that when I don't know someone/something, I am typically very open minded and positive. Whereas, approaching an entity I know I can't trust (like MS) I am always very nervous.

So what you're saying is that it's doubly reasonable for them to be terrified of Sony? It's both the devil they know AND the devil they don't.

Re:The devil you do know

[NekoXP]

Considering a lot of the guys at Valve used to work for Microsoft, I don't think anyone there has any reason to be scared, nor have a lack of trust; they know what it's like from the inside and have their internal contacts. None of them were fired or ousted, but were valued employees that went to do other things - I am sure Microsoft misses them (especially considering the success they've had, wouldn't MS be riding a high right now if Half-Life and Steam had been their product? :)

Re:The devil you do know

[king-manic]

MS Tendancy: Will pretend to partner with you, steal your business models and contacts, cut you out, and grind your company into dust. "embrace, extend and extinguish"

Sony: Partner with you, promote your collaboration, sometimes provide innadaquete documentation at first, attempt to replace your collaboration with a propriatary project a few years later. Fail miserably to compete with your old collaboration.

From history it seems safer to partner with Sony. although they try to screw you later they tend to do it poorly when goign it alone. Their collaborations do well.

They collaborated to create CD's with massive success. Tried to replace it with minidisk and failed miserably. Collaborated to create DVDs to great success. Failed miserably to sort of replace it with UMDs. collaborated on Bluray (and it seems like successis coming).

MS has largely back stabbed their partners. (IBM on Os/2, IBM on PCs in general, Java, etc..)

Re:The devil you do know

[Loadmaster]

A very good point. What if MS decided to partner with Valve to provide a Steam like service integrated into Xbox Live? Kind of like the Phantom Game Service except it could actually happen.

Swi

Re:The devil you do know

[Anonymous Coward]

Talking with the guy who wrote most of the networking code for Resistance:Fall of Man, he made it sound like Sony's approach to networking is the WORST of both worlds. You have to do everything yourself because Sony basically just gives you a device driver. Friends Lists, invites, chat handling, etc. are all up to the developer. There are no libraries or even standards for these. But, unlike the PC, you have to log every game connect with a Sony server so you still have big brother collecting data about games users play. This is like the 360, but at least MS provides policing and a library that doesn't take any new game resources (chat, invites, etc. all come out of the already allocated OS resources) or development time or worries about certification issues. It's no wonder Sony's online is "free". They don't provide anything they could charge for! The only thing Sony does have, its online store, is also free on the 360.

Re:The devil you do know

[nuzak]

> What if MS decided to partner with Valve

Partner, nothing. I think there's a very good chance they might buy Valve.

Re:The devil you do know

[Herby Sagues]

Actually, I can't see that to be the case. Cytrix partnered with Microsoft and they are thriving. When they made the deal with Microsoft, their sales boomed. And they keep growing despite MS adding more features to their version of the solution. I went to a Microsoft conference a few weeks ago and they were promoting Cytrix solutions as a great extension of the basic capabilities in Windows. The same happened with many other partners. Actually, many often asked for features such as backup to tape, cluster support for dynamic disks and other such features are not in the product because Microsoft is respecting previous agreements with partners that provided the technology. I would be interested if you have a real example where Microsof "stabbed" a partner other than OS/2 (which is a matter of views, as far as I know the two companies had diverging views on the subject, IBM wanting to do a clear slab and MS pushing for more backwards compatibility, so MS decided to drop the thing). Sun was NEVER a partner with Microsoft until after the recent deals. They were declared enemies from day -1. Any better examples? I'm not saying there aren't any, but as far as I can see microsoft has been pretty decent with their partners in general.

Re:The devil you do know

[jhfry]

Funny how you say Cytrix is thriving despite Microsoft's continuous theft (for lack of a better word) of their best ideas. Cytrix isn't still around because Microsoft is honoring anything, they are around because Microsoft knows that as soon as they make Cytrix obsolete they will face some difficult patent infringement and possibly antitrust law suits.

Novell is a good example where a one time partner was nearly bankrupt by Microsoft. MS dropped support for the DEC Alpha after a lot of brotherly hype if I remember correctly. An interesting list can be found here: http://www.vcnet.com/bms/departments/catalog/yrcat alog.shtml that details companies that MS has bought or invested in. If you read through it, you will find that many of them no longer exist, their IP has been ditched, and I imagine most of their employees were out on their asses. NOTE: this list only includes those that MS "invested" in or bought outright, which I would call a "partnership".

I don't care what anyone says, partnering with Microsoft should only be taken with a HUGE dose of caution and the second best lawyers (MS has the best) reviewing the contracts. I will not say that all of their "partnerships" have been bad, however the vast majority have. Of course, a number of their partnerships were exactly what the other company wanted... a get rich quick buy out, and since MS loves to toss cash around I know that the number of these is probably skewing the statistics a bit.

Re:The devil you do know

[Anonymous Coward]

I have to say, that when I don't know someone/something, I am typically very open minded and positive. Whereas, approaching an entity I know I can't trust (like MS) I am always very nervous.

Oh really? And what do you do, exactly? I'm curious how successful you are, that you are constantly looking over your shoulder in fear of TEH MIKROSOFT!!!!!!!111eleventy!!11!!11!

Or are you just slinging around anti-MS FUD?

Re:The devil you do know

[NekoXP]

I doubt Newell would let it happen.

And integrating Steam into XBox Live is a bit late.. Steam should have BEEN XBox Live. PopCap Puzzle Pirates FTW.

Re:The devil you do know

[Herby Sagues]

What an odd recall of history you have. Novell never partnered with Microsoft (until last month). They were enemies from day one. I know, I used to work for a Novell distributor at the time, and Microsoft was no friend from the start. It was a competitor, and a strong one that almost got us ruined, but that wasn't because any partnering issues (actually it might have been, them having more and stronger partners than Novell made it a difficult fight). Microsoft stopped supporting Alpha after three years of almost zero sales. No one complained, not even DEC, because the NT aplha machines were less than 1% of the market. And the percentage was dwindling. Same thing for PowerPC. MS developed support for Alpha and PowerPC because there was the expectation that supporting other CPUs besides Intel would lead to aproliferation of faster and more powerful CPUs, but Microsoft made a mistake there: not being NT a run time compile platform (like Java and .Net are), applications, tools and drivers from third parties needed to be compiled, packaged, tested and distributed for each platform. That made the experience on these platforms suck. I had two Alpha servers at my company for running email, and they were powerful but a nightmare to support. When the time came to upgrade them we switched to Intel even if Alpha was still available (PowerPC was not). There was no point for Microsoft to keep supporting a platform that wasn't working and that was actually hurting the ISV market by making porduct development (particularly testing) more expensive, especially for smaller players that are the strongest factor supporting the Windows market. And they learned that lesson, with .Net they made the hardware irrelevant (but not the OS, as Java attempted to do). While no new CPUs are entering the market that don't have x86 compatiility, it will be possible if .Net becomes the prevalent development factor for a long time.

xbox vs. PC

[MrLeap]

This reminds me of playing quake3 on the dreamcast, and getting trounced by all the folks who played on PC. Are they going to give the console folks auto aim? Or a 40 dollar keyboard and mouse adapter to buy? I hope not, for I'll be playing on a PC, and i'd really enjoy a mouse/keyboard skill buffer to take advantage of.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[EGSonikku]

I'm assuming you can just make use of the Xbox 360's 4USB ports.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[DrEldarion]

IIRC, Microsoft doesn't allow that on the 360.

Sony does on the PS3, though, and the new Unreal is going to support it.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[EGSonikku]

Well, I know my USB keyboard works just fine on the 360 for composing messages and such. And even if it's not allowed for games right now they can always make exceptions. Used to be you couldn't go ever 50MB for Xbox Live, and due to Castlevania: SOTN they bumped it to 256mb. And considering that MS has already said there would be cross platform play between the 360 and PC versions of Shadowrun and valve wanting to do the same for HL2, they'll have to do something to level the playing field and that would be easiest.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Kelbear]

No you cannot have kbm/mouse. Microsoft has made statements that they will not support kbm/mouse(it's trivial for them to allow them to be connected, it's just their interface license that keeps them from working natively). You can google for this.

The implementation varies from game to game. In the case of the first FPS crossplatform multiplayer game Shadowrun, they are giving console player auto-aim, while implementing cursor-speed penalties to handicap mouse twitch speeds so that there will be less value in fast and precision aiming and more emphasis on other factors.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Anonymous Coward]

How about forcing the PC gamers to use gamepads instead? That would even it out as well.
I'd be pretty much pissed if I had to play with a freaking mouse and keyboard on my couch to enjoy my console games online because of some assholes who take this gaming crap way too seriously.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[vux984]

The implementation varies from game to game. In the case of the first FPS crossplatform multiplayer game Shadowrun, they are giving console player auto-aim, while implementing cursor-speed penalties to handicap mouse twitch speeds so that there will be less value in fast and precision aiming and more emphasis on other factors.

Let me be the first to say that's not even a game I'd want to play on the PC.

I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 players connected to my PC game than put up with that kind of crap!

Re:xbox vs. PC

[cbreaker]

Just because there's better players then you doesn't mean they all take it way too seriously.

A mouse and keyboard has *serious* advantages over a gamepad, whether you're serious or not. A mouse allows extremely fast and accurate aiming, and a keyboard allows for 100+ buttons.

Something like the Phantom Lapboard would be nice - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_Lapboard

Unfortunately, while it is an actual product that has been shown, it's from a really shitty company with a CEO that is under investigation by the SEC. Who knows if you'll ever be able to get one.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Simon80]

Or you can just segregate yourself into a gamepad only game if you don't wish to use a mouse, or play against people that have mice. You can't expect PC users to have or get gamepads for their FPS games, it just doesn't make sense considering that mouse+keyboard is undeniably better suited to the genre. In my opinion, crossplay is best handled by differentiating mouse and gamepad users into different roles that are better suited to each input type, and then balancing them to get an even playing field.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[7Prime]

While I'd agree with the mouse being a great aiming system, the keyboard is a bit of a detriment. Keyboards were never built to be used for gaming, they're not ergonomically set up for how they're being used, and the keys have no physical relationship to eachother to allow for the best possible access. Gamepads, on the other hand, are created with gaming specifically in mind. They've never been designed for pin-point accuracy like a mouse was (A-Pads are designed for moving a character in one direction or the other at a precise speed, but they're no good at hitting a target quickly), but the button layouts are a lot better. There are less buttons, and their positioning has been researched to maximize memory recall of different functions (especially on things like the GameCube controller, where each button gives a different tactile reference point for the brain to interpret).

Keyboard customization is another huge problem. The fact is, people guess at what is the best possible setup for their individual needs, but in actuality, unless you have an advanced degree in psychology and have done intensive research into tactile and spacial perception, they're not going to be the most knowledgable person about interface design. This is why I despise the idea of keyboard and gamepad reconfiguration. I find that a lot more thought goes into default gamepad interface configuration than default keyboard interface configuration, because PC game developers realize that gamers are just gonna fuck with it anyway.

That's why I think, eventually, when developers get their head out of their asses (and abandon the bounding box technique used today) the Wiimote will eventually be the best device for FPSs, because it has almost the precision of a mouse, but does away with the clunkiness of a keyboard.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[cbreaker]

I never buy into the whole "it was never meant to..." argument. I feel as though the keyboard is an excellent input device for games. There's so many options.

I don't think it needs to be any more "ergonomic." When you use a keyboard, you're sitting at a desk (usually.) Your hand stays in one place, generally. Most games now a days (at least first person shooters) use the same keys to perform the same basic functions. You don't need to be a master to figure them out.

A gamepad has only a small set of buttons because it's designed to be held. Because of that, every game developer has to figure out what buttons should be used for what, and you end up with the same issue as a keyboard. Unless you design the controller for a particular game, it will never be perfect.

I do not think the Wiimote is revolutionary and I don't think it will be the control of future FPS titles. I mean, think about it - people play these games for hours at a time. I know I don't want to hold my arm up, twisting and contorting my wrist, for two hours.

The keyboard/mouse combination is a very good one, and it will take more to convince me otherwise. ps. They do make special sub-keyboards for use with games, that have keys with "spacial relationships" to each other, but provide much of the benefit of a keyboard - and that's a key-based system that you don't hold and can very, very quickly switch between. You can do a left/right switch on a keyboard in much less time then you ever can on a d-pad. They can do all the research they want - it's because they need to make a controller as flexible as possible with a very limited set of controls. It's not because it's technically superior then a keyboard/mouse.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Puff of Logic]

I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 players connected to my PC game than put up with that kind of crap! Concur. If PC players have to put up with the screaming console hordes in an FPS, the least we should be able to do is annihilate them with our 1337 twitch skills. :)

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Mark Gillespie]

Just get a PS3, did I mention it supports USB and Bluetooth keyboards a mice....

Re:xbox vs. PC

[blackicye]

This has long been my problem with console shooters. The lack of precision of the thumbsticks. They did however make a Keyboard and Mouse that plugged directly into the Dreamcast, though I'm unsure if it works with Quake3.

The problem really is they need to design a more intuitive / effective controller mechanism, one that works as well as the keyboard + mouse combo in shooters. FPS with a lightgun type device and a 1 handed directional controller in the offhand would be really cool, maybe the Wii will deliver on that at some point.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Saffaya]

>This reminds me of playing quake3 on the dreamcast, and getting trounced by all the folks who played on PC

You were too cheap to buy the DreamCast keyboard and mouse ?

Re:xbox vs. PC

[MemoryDragon]

Actually in my opinion gamepads are an ergomic nightmare, they cause small injuries (nintendo thumb) they cannot scale to different hand sizes properly, and worse if you are right handed, the mist important controller usually is on the left side, which gets you out of focus, and there is no option to switch side. Ergonomics in my opinion have made a nosedive when nintendo introduced the gamepad replacing various way more ergonomic stick solutions.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Reapy]

I recall reading somewhere, I think in a halo 2 on the pc article, that gamers were using the 360 controller in combination with the mouse. I guess they liked using the analog stick to move around and having that precision (unlike the keyboard, as you mentioned) in combination with the easier aiming of the mouse.

Which, really, is a great idea. I agree with you that the keyboard is just not as accurate as a nice 360 degree stick in your left hand. Sometimes you cant even use key combos togehter like if I want to straf left and hit R to reload my gun its just not possible for my fingers (if i was using standard asdw). I know, some people use sdfe or something, but still, it takes a lot of manual dexterity.

I think I am very comfortable with the idea of moving my character around on the left, and taking action on the right. So why not the best of two worlds? Why not a nice stick in the left hand, and a mouse with more then 3 buttons on the right? I wouldn't want to work out the erganomic nightmare of finding a good spot for a lot of buttons on a mouse, but I know it could be done.

I guess the Wii is close to this, but I think I'd prefer being able to point my hand wherever i want, or itch my face without making the game go wacky. I havent used a wii controller that much, so I don't know if its a realistic complaint or not, but since this is slashdot, I'll still make it :)

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, I guess I can't do the simple tasks of figuring out which buttons I press the most and which are easiest to press. I guess I need a degree. What is better about less buttons?

I tried setting up a gamepad for several games just to try it out, except I never had enough buttons. Check out the number of buttons for Mechwarrior, or any flight sim.

If you think they know how to program key setups, go play Robotech or Champions of Norrath.

You may actually be intelligent, but you seem to be ignoring common sense.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot to mention it's garbage.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Take a look at the nostromo... which I use for all games FPS, RTS or MMO. It solves all the problems of the keyboard and more.

Re:xbox vs. PC

[kalirion]

I mean I agree that the playing field *should* be level but frankly I'd rather just not have xbox360 players connected to my PC game than put up with that kind of crap!

I wonder if that's why Microsoft decided to not allow "coed" PC + 360 matches for Halo 2....

Re:xbox vs. PC

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that would suck for the PC users then. So what's so good about this "experience" that you can enjoy with cross-platform gaming? At least Sony promised that they will support USB kb/mouse.

So basically

[earnest murderer]

It's early in the process and they don't yet know what to think about it. But that's not going to stop 1up from passing that along in the most inflammatory way possible.

And people wonder why so many businesses hide behind their PR department.

Re:So basically

[PingSpike]

To be fair, its really not early in the process with regards to TF2...that game has been delayed repeatedly.

Contractual obligations?

[Otis2222222]

I'm just wondering either Microsoft or Sony would have some sort of verbiage in the development contract they sign with companies to prevent cross-platform gaming. As much as I'd love to see a game be multiplayer-enabled across PS3, 360, PC, Mac, etc. I have a feeling neither MS nor Sony would allow it.

Re:Contractual obligations?

[toleraen]

You might want to check out Final Fantasy 11, playable (on the same servers) on the PC, Xbox 360, and PS2.

Re:Contractual obligations?

[ADRA]

Valve has always been 'pro-MS'. Since they're based in greater-Seattle area, is it really that surprising?

What was a real kick in the ass was them completely dumping OGL from their now current-generation games making them unable to play on anything non-Microsoft.

Now that they are in the UniPlaf world of windows, the incentive to support -any- other platform is probably a heavy one. I can't speak about their architecture in particular, but unless a system is written from the ground up as modular, its difficult to shove it in later without showing some serious scars.

Re:Contractual obligations?

[fyrewulff]

Have they ever really been multiplatform, though? Yeah, Half Life 1 ran on OpenGL, but that was probably because the engine they bought from id ran on it. And from what I remember, Half Life 1 never got a Mac or Linux port.

They've probably done some studies and decided that the Mac FPS market is not for them at this moment. That pretty much belongs to UT2K4 and Halo.

Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Digitus1337]

The question as to which is the superior gaming input device will finally be answered.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[the dark hero]

The question as to which is the superior gaming input device will finally be answered. When it comes to FPS games there never was a single doubt which one was the best. The Keyboard/Mouse combo will always win out in FPS games over a controller.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[bigstrat2003]

When it comes to FPS games there never was a single doubt which one was the best. The Keyboard/Mouse combo will always win out in FPS games over a controller. I agree with you, but there are definitely people who argue that the controller is superior to the keyboard/mouse combo for FPS playing. Strange but true...

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Pojut]

I agree with you, but there are definitely people who argue that the controller is superior to the keyboard/mouse combo for FPS playing. Strange but true...

And you will find that a vast majority of those people started playing FPS's on a console as opposed to on a PC (or just don't use a PC for gaming period)

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[greed]

So maybe they'll let me use a keyboard and mouse on the console? I've got one plugged in already. Actually, it's a Model M with built-in trackball and a USB-PS2 (IBM PS2, not Sony PS2) adapter. I'd want a real mouse for games, but it works nicely with the webby thing and for entering names and stuff.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm one of those people, and I started playing Wolf3D, then the standard DooM arc, and enjoying the heady days of CTF Quake on NTshadow.net.

The keyboard mouse combo won't be beaten for a while because the mouse fascilitates a high sensitivity, and a wide range of motion, to get extremely quick reactions, and a very high degree of precision.

As context awareness becomes more important in FPSs, the controller which is very convinient with everything right there in your hands, will start to pull away. It's ultimately more versitile, where a keyboard has what 108 digital options. You can take finer readings from each button on a thought fully built controller. Which in turn can effortlessly, seemlessly translate into player's actions within the game.

The other thing that's nice, consols and controllers are (hacks aside) made equal. A little Harrison Burgeron? Maybe. But just a touch.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Mattsson]

So... The FPS-heads will just connect a keyboard and a mouse to their consoles.
If the developers aren't idiots and design their games as if the consoles had no usb-ports that is.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[sqmagellan]

Furthering those lines: how many FPS games on consoles have "aim assist?" How many on PC?

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[CavemanKiwi]

No this will answer which control device is the most effective, I guess better at its job. But perhaps not more fun and gamming is meant to be fun. Take paint ball game I like playing when everyone has pump action weapons, as there is a short interval between shots when you can make a dash or get off a shot when pinned down. However it is obvious that a semi-automatic weapon is a much more effective. Therefore I like the worse weapon more making it better in IMHO. This doesn't seem to make much sense once I have typed it out but blah

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Sibko]

Err... No one's actually made a game yet that pits a controller vs a keyboard/mouse. [Shadowrun will be out soon, though.] So how exactly do you know a keyboard/mouse will always win over a controller? That doesn't sound so much like logical reasoning to me as it does faith and an unwillingness to accept change.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Mprx]

Dreamcast Quake 3 vs PC Quake 3. Keyboard+mouse won so hard it wasn't even funny.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

Its no match for dual powergloves!

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Anonymous Coward]

No one's actually made a game yet that pits a controller vs a keyboard/mouse.

There's gamepads and joysticks for PCs too, you know. I started gaming with a joystick back in the old DOS games, and it worked fine for wolfenstein and the like, but I certainly wouldn't try it now, even with two sticks.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[Simon80]

You sound like you've never developed to a competitive skill level with any FPS games using a mouse and keyboard. You don't need to put one against the other directly to see that it's impossible to achieve the same aiming ability with a gamepad using the current control schemes games use with them.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[toejam316]

Its true. Go buy a Xbox control, then re-wire it to USB and get the XBCD Controller Drivers and try play Halo or now Halo 2 online. See how much you "own". I know this firsthand ;-)

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[adona1]

Well, I played James Bond Nightfire on PS2, then on PC...the PC version was much easier to play, and the sniping etc was much more precise. I guess it was just a shame that the PC port really sucked :)

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[kalirion]

Haven't there been a lot of controllers designed specifically for FPS games? I remember that at least one or two of them were reviewed as being at least as good as the mouse+keyboard combo, though they took a while to get used to.

Re:Keyboard/Mouse vs. Controller

[moloko_synthemesc]

Actually there have been at least four such games for consoles, and yes they most definitely removed any doubt some may have had about this issue quite a long time ago. Unreal Tournament, Dreamcast, 2001 Outtrigger, Dreamcast, 2001 Quake III Arena, Dreamcast, 2000 Half-Life, Playstation 2, 2001 (no online option, but 2-player splitscreen deathmatch) From what I've seen, the lack of logical reasoning or unwillingness to accept change has been a trait found in those who enter PC FPS gaming and insist on using the gamepads from their consoles. Most of these misguided folk see the light pretty quickly.

Console/PC mix

[RichPowers]

Obligatory: How can Valve make it fair for someone with an Xbox controller to fight against someone with a keyboard/mouse setup? I play shooters on both consoles and PCs, and the keyboard/mouse is far superior in terms of control and accuracy. I wouldn't want an Xbox player on my team if he has difficulty aiming. Would Valve have to modify TF2's gameplay to accommodate the shortcomings of the Xbox controller? (As in dumb the game down like EA did with C&C3 - another console/PC release)

Oh, and do PC players and console players really have some burning desire to play with one another? TFC public servers have plenty of trolls and idiots, but no where near as many as I encounter on Xbox live. Fighting with them on Halo is bad enough.

I own an X360, PS2, and PC so I can experience different forms of gaming. And at this point, my PC is still the best for shooter games.

Re:Console/PC mix

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple. Use a keyboard and mouse with the console. My PS3 has USB for this, I would imagine the 360 has some too.

Re:Console/PC mix

[RichPowers]

That won't solve the problem unless they required a keyboard/mouse adapter for Xbox players.

If it's required, many players will wonder why the hell they should buy the console version in the first place.

If it's not required, we're back to square one. Does Valve give the Xbox players auto-aim? Or do players simply try their best with the controller?

My problem, as a PC player, would be having console players on my team, since they're clearly at a disadvantage against keyboard/mouse players.

Re:Console/PC mix

[dorath]

One would hope that Valve could create an extra setting with three options for each match: Console only, keyboard + mouse only, and mixed.

Re:Console/PC mix

[PingSpike]

The entire "play together" situation is a waste of time for the developers, because the market will just segregate itself afterwards anyway. Handicap PC players to even the odds for console players, PC players will either block console users from the game or not buy it. Give console players autoaim, some deal. Do nothing and console players will either not play or block PC users from their servers.

Re:Console/PC mix

[blackicye]

If it's required, many players will wonder why the hell they should buy the console version in the first place. Because they prefer not to, or cannot spend the money on a full gaming PC.

Wii?

[Yvan256]

It's sad to see the console with the best First-Person Shooter controllers gets pushed aside for its lower CPU and GPU capabilities.

So you end up playing FPS games on more powerful systems with crappy controllers.

And before you tell me that I only need to practice, I've got plenty of experience. About 15 years with a keyboard and mouse. The Wii remote and nunchuck take about 30 seconds to get used to. The analog sticks and dozen buttons on the Xbox 360 and PS3 gamepads? I gave up after 2 hours.

And no, I don't own a Windows PC either.

Re:Wii?

[MaWeiTao]

The Wii control scheme is certainly superior to any control pad. However, it's still far from the precision and control of a keyboard/mouse combination.

The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user and it doesn't allow for precise, quick targeting. The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy.

And that's not to mention that the targetting accuracy varies from game to game. I've had the on-screen crosshairs jittering on the Wii's system menus making it somewhat difficult to quickly select some of the smaller buttons. But then I'll play a game like Wario and the crosshairs are stable and fairly accurate but then there's a slight lag in responsiveness.

I'm sure we'll eventually see something better than the mouse/keyboard combination but the Wii controller isn't it.

Re:Wii?

[king-manic]

The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user and it doesn't allow for precise, quick targeting. The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy.

Not to mention heat. If there is a window or a heater behind your TV, you can forget about playing with yoru Wii with anything that requires the wiimote to aim. IT's stutter and jump all over the screen because of the heat.

Re:Wii?

[Yvan256]

I didn't say the Wii remote and nunchuck were better than the keyboard+mouse. However, for a console, it is better than the current gamepads with their little analog thumbsticks.

As for the precision, I'm guessing it's more of a software problem than a hardware problem, similar to debouncing a button via software.

Re:Wii?

[tepples]

The Wii still doesn't allow someone to turn with the speed of a PC user Even if the game binds +Control Pad left and right to quick turning? What about rolling the remote or the nunchuk to turn?

The layout of the remote, and all the variables with the screen's size and the distance to that screen hinders accuracy. Would it be so hard to let the player adjust the pitch/yaw sensitivity?

And that's not to mention that the targetting accuracy varies from game to game. I've had the on-screen crosshairs jittering on the Wii's system menus making it somewhat difficult to quickly select some of the smaller buttons. But then I'll play a game like Wario and the crosshairs are stable and fairly accurate but then there's a slight lag in responsiveness. Would it be so hard to let the player adjust the pitch/yaw moving average width?

I'm sure we'll eventually see something better than the mouse/keyboard combination but the Wii controller isn't it. Does a mouse/keyboard combination allow for more than one player per monitor? Single-screen multiplayer is a big advantage of consoles over PCs, as the price of Wii + $60 eBay markup + 2nd remote + 2nd nunchuk is still less than the price of a decent second PC + monitor.

Re:Wii?

[Lost Engineer]

In front of a window is probably not the best place for your TV, but I hear you on the heater thing. Will curtains fix the window problem?

Re:Wii?

[king-manic]

No. My friend have blinds and curtains. The IR radiation still eminates enough to screw the wii mote. for his house setting the big screen in front of the front window is the only orientationt hat works. it's unfortunate but we're night owls so it doesn't effect us that much generally.

Re:Wii?

[Lost Engineer]

Darn. I asked because I'm in a similar situation. Of course I can't find a Wii, so it's not a problem now, but I would like to get one at some point. I'll have to put the TV by the heater by day and by the window at night :)

Re:Wii?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you've put the keyboard and mouse combo on too high of a pedestal.

The Wii controller is a lot like shooting a real gun and I'm vastly better at that than I am with keyboard and mouse. Someone using a Wii controller will be much better at tracking fast moving targets than someone using keyboard and mouse. Also you're probably spending too much time looking at the crosshairs. Just look at your target, point at it and fire. I do fine shooting without the crosshairs while moving in Call of Duty 3.

Re:Wii?

[king-manic]

Night time by a window should be fine. it's the daytime heat that makes the wii mote useless.shaking games are fine but anything requiring the IR is useless.

So....they finished that whole multi core patch?

[WarlockD]

I remember them talking about how innovative they are going to be using multiple cores in a new version of their engine. Have they finished it?

I see why they fear the PS3, its not really using identical cores. Heck, I am not even sure how you can build a cross-platform game and utilize all the features of the PS3.

Not that I care. I have played the demo of Quake 4 for the 360 and it looks like crap compared to the PC. Not going to be getting half-life 2 for either system.

News flash!

[DrEldarion]

People scared of things they haven't done before!

(this is headline-worthy?)

Re:So....they finished that whole multi core patch

[EGSonikku]

You do realise Quake 4 was a very rushed launch game right? You shouldn't use it to jusdge the 360. Try checking out Battlefield 2, F.E.A.R., Gears of War (OK, technically not an FPS) or the upcoming Bioshock. The 360 is plenty fine at it.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[EGSonikku]

Resistance is average at best, and I own a PS3. I'm not saying it doesn't have good multiplayer options, but you can have eveything + the kitchen sink for options but it won't make the core game better.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[Anonymous Coward]

> Resistance is average at best,

Bzzzzttt!!!

Go away fanboy! Shoooo!!!

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh look! Checks post history...

We've got ourselves a Halo fanboy! Sorry sport, Halo 3 isn't going to be Microsoft's Resistance killer.

Halo 3 online is a joke. 16 players only. No dedicated servers. Braindead weapons. Crappy looking graphics. A fucking disaster.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[king-manic]

Resistance is as good as say Far cry. Both are pretty standard FPS's. I think far cry has more innovation (big open enviroments) but they are very comparable in gameplay.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[Anonymous Coward]

This coming from a clear Sony fanboy hiding behind an AC post. BTW, I'm aware of the irony, sue me.

so what about the 'h4x0rs'

[dasnipa]

now correct me if im wrong, but on a ps3 or xbox360, the games are going to be harder, if not impossible to 'hack' due to the static state of being on a cd... I can see the console kids not being happy about some PC gamers running about with their aimbots and wallhacks and not being able to do the same... now I dislike cheating in this manner just like most people should... so maybe consoles actually have something right here

Re:so what about the 'h4x0rs'

[The Orange Mage]

The fact that the console versions are "static state" has nothing to do with it. Almost ALL "hacks" involve a secondary program/process either using information that is in memory or information that the program is handling/sending/receiving. THAT is why hacking is easier on PC; it's much easier to develop and RUN a hack on PC, whereas doing so on a console is mostly impossible afaik.

Re:so what about the 'h4x0rs'

[revengebomber]

VAC makes this a moot point. Also, 360 games can be hacked too (due to the reliance on MS's "unhackable" console); just look at Gears.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[EGSonikku]

Try again!

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3959/x360ps3wii hq2uw3.jpg

don't mind the troll thats just paizuri

[tacroy]

Sorry you all had to see that. Thats almost certainly PaiZuri from digg (http://www.digg.com/users/PaiZuri/news/dugg) he tends to copy and paste that comment (and others like it) in all gaming posts regardless of content. Its a shame that the two pools are only separated by the rope.

YAY

[iceph03nix]

NO STEAM FOR THE PS3. I want one more than ever now! :)

Re:YAY

[Anonymous Coward]

The PS3 makes plenty of stream, just switch it on for a while and place a glass of water next to it. Soon you'll have plenty of steam!

This is what happens...

[LingNoi]

... when you build your entire source engine in DirectX. Of course valve's console takeup has been slow.

It only works on two platforms Windows and 360.

Re:This is what happens...

[Subacultcha]

... when you build your entire source engine in DirectX. Of course valve's console takeup has been slow.

It only works on two platforms Windows and 360.

Instead of trolling, could you read what he said? He said nothing about DirectX. Porting a game that uses DirectX to another API is straightforward these days. How to make use of all the cores in the PS3 is not.

Sorry to disappoint you, but DirectX is not the reason people don't port to other platforms.

Re:I'd Be Terrified Having To Compete With Resista

[revengebomber]

How about you try learning an entirely new API while simultaneously trying to adapt your existing game to it and maintain compatibility with different systems? Also, Resistance is hardly that godly of a game. Now, it may be good compared to some of the recent drivel, but it's hardly the next Quake 3, Timesplitters, or Halo.

FPS in a PC/Console environment

[therufus]

What is going to be funny is when TF2 arrives on both Xbox and PC. For years, all the people I know who play the Xbox and PS2 have defended the place of FPS games on a console based system. I have been constantly disagreeing over the fact that with a gamepad, you cannot accurately and quickly aim and move fluently. PC's always have better control with the mouse and keyboard.

Now when console FPS plays PC FPS, the results will speak for themselves. This could result in one of two things:
1. Console players will get pissed off with being pwnd by PC users and there will be a mini-revolt against FPS on Xbox/PS3 or;
2. Suddenly, a mouse and keyboard will be the new hot selling attachment for Xbox.

This could be an interesting time.

Re:FPS in a PC/Console environment

[Anonymous Coward]

This could be an interesting time.

Yeah, it was back when we called it Halo 2.

Yea, but

[Anonymous Coward]

It'd be nice to beat the 16/24 limit commonly seen on 360 servers by using a 32/64 server hosted on a PC. You would think that the 360 would be capable of this so I'm not sure why it's limited...I'm sure there's a reason posted somewhere but I haven't seen it. Playing someone on a pc that has a km combo would be a pain. I rather prefer playing all of my games on the 360. The only games that I currently play on the PC are Operation Flashpoint and CnC. Operation Flashpoint sucks because there aren't any decent servers and CnC is coming out for the 360 so my pc gaming future is going to be non existant. Plus, I think FPS games are better on consoles because the controllers are innacurrate...there's so much more gun fire because it's harder to hit each other so you just keep on shooting -I'm obviously not that good :-). Playing people with km combo's is just not fun cause you're dead in 2 seconds after like 5 shots...in Gears of War, I'm emptying clips trying to kill 1 guy and it sounds awesome with my surround sound system and looks great on my 42" LCD. It's the experience that's better...

Re:Yea, but

[Firefly1]

Plus, I think FPS games are better on consoles because the controllers are innacurrate...

Right, that statement went and set off all the 'this man must be kidding' flags in my head. Then you explain yourself... the explanation is strange, but it apparently works for you, so 'nuff said there.
My experience with gamepad accuracy and FPSs comes from the likes of Black and Killzone; I've found that the very same relative inaccuracy makes headshots all the more satisfying... especially with weapons that aren't exactly the most tack-accurate in the game (the M249 in Black; the Helghast assault rifle and squad MG in Killzone).
A bit earlier, you mention C&C3. Now there is an example of a genre that isn't gamepad-friendly (AvP: Extinction on the PS2 manages to work more due to scale than anything, but suffers from camera issues).

Re:So....they finished that whole multi core patch

[WarlockD]

Nono, I realize that. I was trying to compare the visuals of a game from the 360 to the PC. You would figure, with the lower res, that you could put more textures? Use all the cores? I know its comparing apples to oranges as I have a high end card, I just wonder that will any of these ported games ever will use all the power of the console, or if they just click a box in codewarriors cross platform C compiler.

Team Fortress 2 not out?

[VGPowerlord]

Team Fortress 2 still isn't out? I remember seeing an advertisement for it in the original Half-Life's box.

What'd they do, outsource it to 3D Realms?

Re:Team Fortress 2 not out?

[crolix]

Yeah, it's one of those "when it's done" releases. Personally, I am wondering what kind of wonderful multi-player mods are in the works for the much anticipated Duke Nukem sequel... :)

Re:Team Fortress 2 not out?

[VGPowerlord]

Now I'm picturing a Duke Fortress mode. :D

Nah, we'll probably see:
Dukeperative
Dukematch
Team Dukematch
Dukeslaught
Dukesault
Capture the Duke
Double Dukination
Last Duke Standing
Dukevasion

(Dukeified from the UT 2K4 games mode list)

Re:So....they finished that whole multi core patch

[fyrewulff]

all Xbox 360s are required to at least run in 1024x768 (or close to it, 720p), which also happens to be one of the most popular PC resolutions.

It doesn't matter if you could fit more textures in the game at 480i/p, because then it wouldn't run at the required 720p

Gamepad=thumbs, keyboard=fingers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's that simple. I can use 4 fingers + thumb (on spacebar) on a keyboard or 1 thumb + 1 finger (on triggers) on a pad. Keyboards give more control, particularly if you're someone who knows how to type and can therefore use all your fingers precisely and quickly.

If someone came out with an 8-trigger gamepad I'd be an instant convert, and if there was a 1-handed version you could combine with a mouse (or wiimote) I'd never look back.

That's a shame

[moloko_synthemesc]

I've been considering a 360 as an alternative to the PC for gaming, and figured that mouse & keyboard support for games would have finally (logically) been implemented, particularly in regard to the volume of games that desperately need it. Unless some company from Hong Kong comes out with a product allowing m/kb use, as they have in the past for other consoles, that glaring lack of foresight is a deal breaker for me.

I did

[Nicolay77]

Well, not exactly. You don't need a console to use a gamepad. I have one for my pc, it's a Logitech one that looks exactly like the PS2 one.

What I did was this:
In one pc: mouse + keyboard. Me.
In the other pc: logitech gamepad. An 'expert' Halo player.

I have to say, the Halo player is a damn good bastard. I expected total ownage and I still won half the time, but it was not what I expected. He could beat me more times than I was ready to accept. It also helps that the logitech gamepad is very good, better than I feel the PS2 ones. And that he beats everyone else I know at Halo.

My revenge? I put him online, and really good players kicked his ass, but he still got too many frags for all the "controller's sucks" crowd to believe.

However, I had a crappy mouse, and now I have a superb Logitech MX500 with zero acceleration and great response. I hope to do round 2 as soon as possible.