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DVD Security Group Says It Has Fixed AACS Flaws

SkillZ wrote to mention an article at the IBT site discussing a fix to the security breech of the HD DVD and Blu-ray media formats. "Makers of software for playing the discs on computers will offer patches containing new keys and closing the hole that allowed observant hackers to discover ways to strip high-def DVDs of their protection. On Monday, the group that developed the Advanced Access Content System said it had worked with device makers to deactivate those keys and refresh them with a new set."

388 comments

  1. i'm not so sure... by User+956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Makers of software for playing the discs on computers will offer patches containing new keys and closing the hole that allowed observant hackers to discover ways to strip high-def DVDs of their protection.

    Do they not understand, that if you can view it, you can copy it?

    On the other hand, maybe they do understand, and HD-DVD/Blu-Ray 2.0 will offer only un-viewable content. Step 3, profit!

    --
    The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    1. Re:i'm not so sure... by revengebomber · · Score: 2, Funny

      Enhanced optical deflection impairment copy protection technology (read: pre-scratched).

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
    2. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Look, they're running a business, so they're not aiming for perfection, just profit. The protection is supposed to keep your neighbor from putting a HD-DVD and a blank into a computer and getting a perfect copy half an hour later. It is not supposed to keep a group of Chinese from remastering the disc with professional equipment. The industry can deal with professional piracy in different ways because that kind of piracy has to move big numbers of copies. The industry can not come to your neighbor and check that he legally owns all his HD-DVDs, so they make it inconvenient for him to create illegal copies. There are enough keys that they can keep revoking them until kingdom come without running out of keys. Hackers can probably get the new keys after a short while, but everybody who wants to make copies has to get updated illegal circumvention software everytime the keys are changed, which is impractical if you just want to make a quick copy of a rented or borrowed disc. People in the real world value their time, so you only have to make the time cost of copying high enough to make the legal offering more attractive.

    3. Re:i'm not so sure... by EvilGrin666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't see how flashing my HD-DVD drive firmware because its key got revoked is any less onerous than downloading the latest crack from a random P2P network.

      Besides we've been here before with DVD region encoding. Everyone got fed up and bought cheap region free DVD players as soon as the Chinese figured out there was a market for them.

    4. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      Netflix has employed that for quite some time

    5. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I bought an expensive (~$800) region free player from a well know Japanese company. The picture and sound quality is far supperior, and comes with a nice built in scaler for connecting to my HDtv. Region free does not have to equal low quality

    6. Re:i'm not so sure... by AIFEX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I too bought a DVD player, for a mere £120, several years ago. It was trivial to crack in order to play multi-region DVD's and the quality is far superior than my friends £400 pre-chipped unit.

      --
      Biomech
    7. Re:i'm not so sure... by EvilGrin666 · · Score: 3, Informative

      In no way did I mean that just because the players were cheap and made in China they are somehow inferior quality. Quite the opposite in fact.

      For example. I have a DVD player that made by a no-nane Chinese brand, bought for 30UKP (around 60USD). It's not region free but can be unlocked by a magic button press combination on the remote. Instructions for said inputting magic combination were given to me at the shop when I bought it. It plays anything I throw at it. Even half arsed DVD rips that I failed to burn correctly.

      On the other hand, my father has an expensive Sony DVD player. It's region locked, doesn't upscale for his HDTV and takes great offence if anything is slightly out of spec on the DVD disc.

      Now to bring this vaguely back on topic, from a consumer point of view, which is better? I suspect those without any knowledge of region encoding (or in the case of HD-DVD, DRM) most would simply conclude the more expensive player is 'broken' and opt for the cheaper region free/DRMless player.

      Fair enough, at the moment with HD-DVD they do not have a choice. Bottom line is, while the average consumer might not care about their 'digital rights' they dam well care about their shiny new disks working in their shiny new HD-DVD player. This has the same beneficial effect to my mind, the end of DRM. The movie industry pisses off the average consumer at their peril.

    8. Re:i'm not so sure... by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

      Yes, because we all know that DVD sales are plummeting. People like buying DVDs. Especially when they can go to discount stores (ie: CostCO/Wallmart/etc.) and get them for $15-20. They actually feel that they are getting value for their money.

      The vast majority would rather pay a few dollars more than a pirate copy just to have something they can keep on their shelves and not be ashamed of. That's why the sweet spot for movies is ~15-20 dollars (with pirates selling them for around $5).

      Charging more for HD content isn't going to cut it because a lot of people *with* HDTVs like the quality of DVDs in a progressive scan player (which they are are over the last couple years).

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    9. Re:i'm not so sure... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      That is of course assuming the primary means of the future is to copy original discs. Sure 20-30GB is fairly inconvienient taking a day of 2-3MBit sustained download, but there's several easy optimizations like swapping already downloaded discs with buddies. Hell, I remember some buddies of mine used to do that with mp3, warez and game cds back when dial-up was common. Not to mention they're excellent sources for higher-quality-but-smaller-than-DVD rips.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    10. Re:i'm not so sure... by Mike1024 · · Score: 1

      Hackers can probably get the new keys after a short while, but everybody who wants to make copies has to get updated illegal circumvention software everytime the keys are changed, which is impractical if you just want to make a quick copy of a rented or borrowed disc. People in the real world value their time, so you only have to make the time cost of copying high enough to make the legal offering more attractive.

      If updating software regularly (due to revoked keys) is a big enough bother to stop people engaging in piracy, then updating legit player software because its key has been revoked would be an equally big bother.

      Granted, the legit software can have an auto-update server, but the continued existence of sites like "the pirate bay" implies pirates can get access to servers which big media has difficulty getting disabled.

      --
      "Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
    11. Re:i'm not so sure... by Sique · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The same story happened to me. At first I bought an expensive Sony DVD player just to notice that this doesn't play anything beside music CDs and DVDs correctly encoded. Then it took longer and longer to recognize slightly scratched DVDs (I have little children, so DVDs get scratched very easily), and finally it didn't recognize any of the DVDs my children liked to watch.

      So I missed my parental opportunity to reduce the media consum of my children, went to an online shop and ordered the cheapest DVD player I could get for a mere 30 EUR (at the time just US$25), and - oh wonder! - all the scratched DVDs play again, additionally the DVDs my wellmeaning sister-in-law brought from the U.S., which didn't play before, and I can also look at the burned CD with all my family pictures, play MP3 CDs...

      The expensive DVD player from Sony now sits in the kitchen and occasionally plays a normal music CD, when there is nothing in the FM worth listening to.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    12. Re:i'm not so sure... by Bert64 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As has been said before...
      DRM is not about stopping serious copying groups... The warez scene will still rip this media and distribute it online, and dodgy street corner vendors will always have copies for sale. These people simply wouldn't watch these movies if they couldnt get free copies.

      DRM is about preventing legitimate users (who are willing to pay) from doing things like format shifting. The media companies want those people who buy movies anyway, to buy additional copies to play on their ipods, portable players etc, rather than converting their existing media.

      If I buy a CD, I can produce a copy for the car, i can rip it to my ipod, i can rip it onto my laptop. This is all covered by fair use in some countries. The RIAA/MPAA wants to take away our fair use rights so wring more money out of people...

      If they openly admitted the purpose of DRM was to remove people's fair use rights and get more money out of legitimate buyers, there would be public outcry and they'd be taken to court. So instead, they try to claim it's to prevent organised piracy.

      The constant cracking of their protection schemes just proves that it doesn't stop piracy _AT ALL_.. If preventing piracy was the true reason for DRM, they would have abandoned DRM years ago, as it's costing them a lot of money to develop while doing nothing to stop piracy.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    13. Re:i'm not so sure... by Aladrin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The protection is supposed to keep your neighbor from putting a HD-DVD and a blank into a computer and getting a perfect copy half an hour later."

      They were already there. So why do they keep working on it? The answer is simple: That's not the goal.

      Seriously. You think my neighbor (or any of my family for that matter) could extract a volume key? I would need detailed instructions to do it. No, this already offers the minimal piracy protection that you think is the goal. And nothing short of 100% fool-proof protection could stop the eventual existance of a HDDVD-ripping program. If someone can extract the key and rip a movie, they can (and probably will) write a program to do it automatically. That's what programmers do, you see... We take things that are long and boring and automate them.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    14. Re:i'm not so sure... by adrianbaugh · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I still don't see how AACS prevents copying. Surely the pirates' work flow would be approximately:

      1. dd if=/dev/sr0 of=PansLabyrinth.bin
      2. Burn the image back onto a blank medium
      3. ...
      4. Profit!

      No need to go decrypting the content at any stage - if their customer's HDDVD player can unscramble the original it can unscramble the cloned copy. AACS is just another tool to maintain regional control.

      --
      "'I pass the test,' she said. 'I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.'"
      - JRR Tolkien.
    15. Re:i'm not so sure... by Eivind · · Score: 3, Insightful
      The "it's too large" argument won't hold anyway, if indeed it holds today.

      Used to be, industry considered the ridicolous size of CDs protection enough -- 700MB or thereabout would take forever to download, and be completely cost-prohibitive to store on a hard-disc anyway.

      Then lossy compression came, and gave results that are acceptable to 99% of the listeners for 1/8th the size or thereabouts, which means we're at less than 100MB for a CD.

      Then bandwith grew -- 28.8 gave way to 56.6 gave way to 128kbps and then on to broadband -- initially 700kbps or thereabouts, today typically 2-4Mbps in the USA, 5 - 25 mbps in Norway.

      Even at the lowest speed offered by my ISP (6 Mbps symetrical), downloading a 100MB album takes less than a minute and a half, which is trivial.

      Then movies. DVDs -- it was argued, hold 5-10GB of data, so are completely impractical to pirate. The same story repeated. Compression came. You can download a 1-2GB version of a 10GB DVD with a quality good enough for 99% of the viewers -- there's much better codecs out there than the ones used on DVD.

      1GB of data is like 15 minutes at full throttle even today (still with the LOWEST speed available from Lyse), even the full uncompressed DVD at 10GB or so would be downloaded in about 2 hours, which is still practical.

      Now it's argued that whatever NextGen disc at 50GB or thereabouts will not be pirated because the size makes it impractical.

      Give me a break. 99% of the people who listen to music find well-encoded 192kbps mp3 to be "good enough", the same people will very likely find a 1-5GB recompressed version of a blueray original "good enough" too. And they'll be able to download and store the original trivially a few years in the future anyway.

    16. Re:i'm not so sure... by ady1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The protection is supposed to keep your neighbor from putting a HD-DVD and a blank into a computer and getting a perfect copy half an hour later and this is harmful to industry because?
    17. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pay-TV piracy is a similar concept. If you subscribe and pay, you get the updated keys automatically, if you use hacked cards, you need regular updates through illegal communication channels, which creates exposure and is not as automatic. It works, but there is a risk beyond having an illegal program on your own computer and it takes more than a simple download to make it work.

      So far all cracks involved the more or less clever extraction of keys from specific versions of legitimate players, so no, this will not be done automatically and not on every system. For example, if the ripper software requires an unpatched XBox360 drive, but the unpatched drive has been blacklisted, the consumer has to decide if he wants to copy movies or if he wants to use the drive to watch movies without copying them first. A _consumer_ will update the firmware and that renders the ripper software useless, because it requires additional programming to create a new way of getting the necessary keys from a player. It is not automatic until someone really cracks AACS.

    18. Re:i'm not so sure... by harl · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Then bandwith grew -- 28.8 gave way to 56.6 gave way to 128kbps and then on to broadband -- initially 700kbps or thereabouts, today typically 2-4Mbps in the USA, 5 - 25 mbps in Norway. Just FYI. My broadband provider here in the ~350,000 person metro area in a mostly rural section of the midwest USA doesn't offer anything lower than 3Mbps and will go as high as 10Mbps.
      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    19. Re:i'm not so sure... by RalphSleigh · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I am pretty sure this does not even work on regular dvds because the area that contains the CSS keys is unwritiable on blank dvds.

      --
      Come as you are, do what you must, be who you will.
    20. Re:i'm not so sure... by battery111 · · Score: 1

      Does it cut down on piracy? Yes, it does. Does it stop a large number of private citizens from continually circumventing it? No, it doesn't. This has been evidenced in the past With WGA. While it does make it a pain in the ass to use a pirated copy of windows, it certainly does not prevent a large number of people from doing it. Microsoft's own numbers indicate this, and while I believe their numbers to be somewhat inflated for the purposes of making the problem seem bigger than it is, there certainly is a large number of people who still use pirated copies of windows XP, and probably vista. Another example of pirating media content where countermeasures are constantly being deployed is satellite TV. While companies like DirecTV and Dish Network constantly fry people's pirated smart cards, users still constantly employ new solutions to pirate the content. It has reached a point where their countermeasures may only stop pirates for a couple of hours or less before they are back up and running. I agree with the first poster, people will consistently find new ways to pirate content as long as the content itself is available.

    21. Re:i'm not so sure... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I don't see how flashing my HD-DVD drive firmware because its key got revoked is any less onerous than downloading the latest crack from a random P2P network.

      There's lots of things the manufacturer can do to hard/firmware to make it substantially harder for you than can be done in software.

      Off the top of my head:

      - Firmware can be rewritten maximum of 5 times, but keys can be rewritten as many times as you like. Doesn't solve the issue of keys getting cracked, so...
      - Future revisions could allow for a pool of blacklisted keys. Any key in the blacklist will be ignored, regardless of whether or not it's in the list of acceptable keys. Every entry in the blacklist is write-once. Sure, you'll only be able to store a limited number of keys in this blacklist, but you don't need to store an unlimited number - just enough to be inconvenient.

    22. Re:i'm not so sure... by Eivind · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      I know that faster alternatives exist in some parts of USA. I still believe 2-4mbps is "typical" though, and that's what I said. Actually I'm certain there's a lot more people on speeds UNDER 2mbps than there are on speeds ABOVE 4mbps.

      There's 100mbps symetrical available in parts of Norway (from BKK), but it's not typical, first its only available in a small fraction of the country, and secondly, even where it's available a small portion of the population care to pay for it. My ISP for example has 6, 25 and 50mbps available, and say outrigth that the only reason they offer nothing higher is "no demand", even at the current speeds 75% of the customers go for the slowest alternative. 6mbps is sufficient for most internet-use afterall.

      The physical infrastructure is single-mode fibre-to-the-basement of every house, and GB ethernet internally in the houses. The physical fibre can handle multiple GB (if not TB), so that's certianly not the issue. (they do use some of it for offering around 100 channels TV over the same fibre though)

    23. Re:i'm not so sure... by itlurksbeneath · · Score: 1

      Even at the lowest speed offered by my ISP (6 Mbps symetrical), downloading a 100MB album takes less than a minute and a half, which is trivial.

      You need to check that again. 6Mbps is about 500K per second (accounting for overhead). To download 100MB at 6Mbps would take about 2.5 minutes. You'd need about 10Mbps to download 100MB in a 1.5 minutes. It'd take 21 hours to download 50GB at your current bandwidth and even at 10Mbps, it'd be 12 hours.

      It may not seem like a big difference between 1.5 and 2.5 mintues, but try holding your breath for 2.5 minutes.

      --
      Have you ever considered piracy? You'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts.
    24. Re:i'm not so sure... by molarmass192 · · Score: 1

      However ... other than FIOS, that's just about where we've been since 2001, meanwhile, the rest of the world has been getting fatter and fatter pipes. We've moved from leading to lagging in this regard here in the USA. Also, 6MBPS *symterical* you won't find that kind of upstream outside of FIOS here.

      --

      Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
    25. Re:i'm not so sure... by TimTucker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Fair enough, at the moment with HD-DVD they do not have a choice. Bottom line is, while the average consumer might not care about their 'digital rights' they dam well care about their shiny new disks working in their shiny new HD-DVD player. This has the same beneficial effect to my mind, the end of DRM. The movie industry pisses off the average consumer at their peril. Ah, but they do have a choice, and they seem to be making that choice quite often: DVD is good enough for most consumers.
    26. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is all offtopic and I wish I had mod points.

      2-4 is not typical in the USA. That estimate is on the lowsite. I've had 6Mbps here in Virginia for years.

      Then you compare typical (2-4) to an outlier (100) which according to stats should be ignored since it's an . . outlier. What's up with that?

      Yes the USA trails everywhere with broadband penetration but our speeds or as good or better then the 6Mbps you claim 75% of the people in Norway use.

    27. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to work on your reading comprehension, so it's probably a good thing that you don't have modpoints. The first comment compared typical to typical (might have been off a little, but the tendency is correct), the reply mentioned that there are better connections available (outlier) and the reply to that compared outlier to outlier (and explicitly so).

    28. Re:i'm not so sure... by bytesex · · Score: 4, Funny

      EODICPT ? That'll never fly. Surface Crack Rendering Application Technology for Copying Hazards. That's better.

      --
      Religion is what happens when nature strikes and groupthink goes wrong.
    29. Re:i'm not so sure... by Threni · · Score: 1

      Things are possibly different now, but the intention of protection on software used to be to delay piracy so that people would buy the game/program, rather than spend time trying to track down a crack that worked.

      This doesn't really work with the Internet, though - you don't have to be part of any scene to get hold of games/programs. Still, there is something of a technical hurdle to overcome for the average person to copy a DVD, for example, and adding DRM to the problem might make the difference between a copy or a purchase for some people.

    30. Re:i'm not so sure... by EvilGrin666 · · Score: 1

      Ok, I can see that being a reasonable option for most people in the short term, but there's two problems with that situation in the long run:

      1. It breaks the movie industries business model. A lot of their revenue comes from selling old titles on new formats.
      2. What happens when (because of 1) new titles only come on out on HD-DVD?

    31. Re:i'm not so sure... by badasscat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, because we all know that DVD sales are plummeting.

      You meant that sarcastically, but actually, you're right.

      Charging more for HD content isn't going to cut it because a lot of people *with* HDTVs like the quality of DVDs in a progressive scan player (which they are are over the last couple years).

      First of all, both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray movies cost the same as DVD's - about $15-$20. Some are as low as $9. So that argument doesn't hold water.

      Second, nobody who has an HDTV likes the quality of DVD vs. true HDTV. DVD's are watchable, but the quality difference is pretty obvious. I have never seen any HDTV owner that says otherwise. (Maybe going back to the early days of HDTV, when the resolution of those sets was hardly better than DVD. But that's not the case anymore.)

      The industry needs a replacement for DVD, and HDTV owners do want one. It will likely turn out to be some combination of digital downloads and high-def optical discs, most likely Blu-Ray in the long run.

    32. Re:i'm not so sure... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The protection is supposed to keep your neighbor from putting a HD-DVD and a blank into a computer and getting a perfect copy half an hour later.

      Aint gonna happen with companies out that that will make these cracks int oa nice service and you can buy and install it like anydvd, even your brain dead neighbor can copy a HDDVD or BluRay disc without thought.

      Personally I love these types of programs, they make a XP pc capable of playing a bluray disc at full res over component video. something that is impossible on vista and their damned "trusted" BS.

      Lots and lots of people are willing to buy illegal cracking software just so they can watch their content on the items they own.

      God I love this, all you windows owners now have to do what us Linux users have had to do from day one with DVD's.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    33. Re:i'm not so sure... by toleraen · · Score: 1

      And if I'm not mistaken "illegitimate" software like AnyDVD has an auto-update server it connects to as well. Of course, if we look at most people's habits with auto updates (See: Windows Updates), the general public will just disable the feature, then complain very very loudly when their products stop working. Can't wait!

    34. Re:i'm not so sure... by Technician · · Score: 4, Interesting

      so you only have to make the time cost of copying high enough to make the legal offering more attractive.

      Unfortunately, high prices and the lack of working copies/backups makes the legal offerings un-attractive for many. I have kids. I have cases that used to contain working DVD's. Lack of backups is a problem. I'm moving to a Linux Media Center PC. This new format is incompatible. A media server is a much better solution for most families than a shelf of out of order/broken/lost DVD's. The inability to make a backup/working copy is a crime. DVD's in the home make as much sense as a CD player tethered to your iPod instead of a hard drive. Kids don't take CD cases to school anymore. They know they get stolen, lost, broken, etc. They rip the CD's at home and load them on their iPod with the originals safely stored away.

      SONY Dreamworks doesn't get it. I bought Open Season. It has some copy protection on it besides CSS. Guess which film won't be in the Media Center? Guess which brand I'm not buying in the future? Chances are that title won't be watched much simply because it's inconvienent. It's like copy protection on CD's. The kids have iPods. They rip their CD's. CD's that don't work are remembered. That artist and label get a critical review on their next release. Kids instead of buying CD's they can't use, look elsewhere such as P-P and sneakernet. Copy protection (Defective product) sends buying consumers elsewhere.

      I remember what CD's and DVD's can't be ripped and who put them out.

      Since I did buy Open Season, I will be looking for an already ripped copy or a solution to rip it myself. So far, the rip it myself solutions seem to be mostly commercial offerings.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    35. Re:i'm not so sure... by idunno2112 · · Score: 1

      In a world were people are paying $100+ for a 6 foot cable named "HDMI", can you blame the media companies for wanting to charge for their content? What's more entertaining to watch: a 6 foot cable connecting your HD video source to the back of your TV or a DVD movie being played in said HD video source?

    36. Re:i'm not so sure... by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      That estimate is probably on the high side. Remember, the FCC won't release figures, and everything over modem speeds is considered "broadband" for penetration numbers.

    37. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time cost of copying any software in the world? Well, how fast you can do a search on btjunkie and click on the torrent? "People in the real world" - wake up, the Internet is in the real world.

    38. Re:i'm not so sure... by grub · · Score: 1


      The price of HDDVD/BluRay players are the limiting factor. For most households DVD is "good enough"; they don't have HD sets or fancy home theatres.

      We have a 52" HD set with an upconverting DVD player. It does look a bit better than standard DVD resolution thanks to some interpolation magic but we decided long ago to not cough up any money for a true HD player until they're cracked. Until then we download 720p x.264 rips and enjoy those in our TVs native resolution.

      Having to upgrade an HD player we buy just to appease Hollywood is bullshit.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    39. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Burstable cable speeds are not the same as sustained download. Here in Minnesota, a 4MB/s download is above average, the norm is still around 1.5MB/s. DSL upload rates are still several times better than what the cable providers will give you.

    40. Re:i'm not so sure... by mzs · · Score: 1

      Ah but this is an issue of copy protection not region distribution. Yes the market has decided that the region locking was too strict. But it is much harder to find DVD players that do not honor macrovision. I have an old tv set in my bedroom with only an antenna input. I tried plugging-in my dvd player trhough the VCR it did not work because of the macrovision. I just could not find dvd player anywhere that I could do a remote code to get rid of macrovision. I bought one where there was a bug in the original firmware where you could get around the macrovision by fiddling with the output settings, not the ideal situation since it would not stick. But the one that I got had a firmware date that was a month later than the posting on the web and this particular bug was fixed. Lots of other bugs like video and audio losing sync remain. I have a feeling that the manufactures treat keeping the video producers happy with a high priority. I just had to buy a $10 rf modulator (actually I am on my second since the quality of the first and more expensive one was so terrible).

    41. Re:i'm not so sure... by grub · · Score: 1


      Used to be, industry considered the ridicolous size of CDs protection enough -- 700MB or thereabout would take forever to download, and be completely cost-prohibitive to store on a hard-disc anyway.

      Heh, so true. I remember upgrading to a couple of 800 MB disks in a Novell server at an old workplace many years ago. I thought "Whoa, we can hold an entire CD on this thing now!"

      How times have changed.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    42. Re:i'm not so sure... by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      re: 2; The movie industry will face increasingly stiff competition from pirates and bootleggers as their warez start filtering out to the average consumer faster than you can say 'Stupid Summer Frat Boy Movie'.

      So much for solving the piracy issue with DRM.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    43. Re:i'm not so sure... by mstahl · · Score: 1

      This is actually exactly the approach that I use to back up my own DVDs (which, before anyone chimes in saying otherwise, is fair use). I've had one go missing on me, burned the backup to a fresh DVD-R, and actually had that be playable in my PS2. The backup copy, of course, still has the copy protection and still has region encoding (if it was present on the original DVD), and thus isn't any more versatile than the original. It's just that if you scratch it or lose it or something, you won't feel as bad.

      The real pirates, of course, have machines to perform this duplication for them, and the economics of that work out just fine. If the MPAA is trying to stop these guys by encrypting content on the discs, I'm really not sure how they can prevent a wholesale bit-for-bit copy without harassing manufacturers (something I vehemently oppose).

    44. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not saying it's the right or even a good idea, but copy-protection stops the kind of copying that it's supposed to stop. The college geek who will copy everything because he has the time and know-how and can't afford to pay anyway isn't a lost sale, but when my hairdresser talks about copying DVDs (not making backups, mind you), then there is a problem. That's the kind of copyright violation that AACS is supposed to stop. The negative side effects may outweigh the intended effects, but that's not what I was responding to. The discussion started with a correct but useless observation about the nature of audiovisual media products: If you can see it, you can copy it. That's completely and utterly beside the point. A relevant observation would be "if you can see it, you can easily copy it", but that isn't the case, because of AACS.

    45. Re:i'm not so sure... by Fordiman · · Score: 2, Informative

      mencoder dvd://[title] -chapter [chapter] -ovc lavc -oac lavc -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:bitrate=1500:mbd=2:trell:v4mv:turbo:a codec=mp3:abitrate=192 -o "[DVD Name] - [title] - [chapter].avi"

      That will rip incorrectly most of the time; you need to do prescaling using -vf crop=w:h:x:y,scale=x:y,expand=x:y and data you can get from the stdout of mplayer dvd://[title] -chapter [chapter]

      Still, there ain't nothin' like gettin' yer hands dirtied on a command line.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    46. Re:i'm not so sure... by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 1

      """
      The constant cracking of their protection schemes just proves that it doesn't stop piracy _AT ALL_.. If preventing piracy was the true reason for DRM, they would have abandoned DRM years ago, as it's costing them a lot of money to develop while doing nothing to stop piracy.
      """

      Not if you have companies with dumbasses running them being convinced that flawed tech will work. Hmmm...

    47. Re:i'm not so sure... by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Second, nobody who has an HDTV likes the quality of DVD vs. true HDTV. DVD's are watchable, but the quality difference is pretty obvious. I have never seen any HDTV owner that says otherwise.

      I have an HDTV, and a DVD player with one of the best upscalers (according to reviews).

      I find the quality of a well-encoded DVD movie to be comparable to OTA HDTV on my set.

      Of course, I don't have a monster 56" TV. Like the majority of people, I have a set under 40". At that size, well upscaled DVD really isn't obviously inferior to HD.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    48. Re:i'm not so sure... by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Bingo! It isn't. DRM has always been about distribution control, never about piracy. Witness that the stuff that actually is proven to hit the industry in the pocket book (large-scale for-profit piracy) isn't impressed by any of the DRM, and never will be. The only people it annoys are the ones who can't be arsed to figure out where to get DVD copiers from.

      Control of the distribution channel is far more important to the industry than any measly piracy. Why? Because they're middle men, and technology that removes the middle man means that they don't have a job anymore. DRM is about job protection, not piracy prevention.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    49. Re:i'm not so sure... by edflyerssn007 · · Score: 1

      I've held my breath for over 3 minutes.

      My cable at school (ROC, NY) is in the 6mbps range, but my cable at home is 15mbps, with an option for 30mbps. So broadband isn't as slow in parts of the US (LI, NY) as you may think.

      -Ed

      --
      So you see what had happened was....
    50. Re:i'm not so sure... by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would pay for a pirated version is I didn't have the menu crap, FBI crap, and studio self promotion crap.

      When was the last time someone put in the disc for Pirates of the Carribean 2 and wanted to wade through 3 minutes of "Register this disc" crap.

      I have no problem buying discs or even plunking down over $25 for a disc but I don't want crap. I copy all my DVDs for
      -backup protection
      -convience of movie only

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    51. Re:i'm not so sure... by Relic+of+the+Future · · Score: 1
      If what you say is true, then why are the laws against individual copying so onerous? Why are the MPAA pushing so hard to make them even MORE onerous?

      The penalty for copying a DVD can be higher than the penalty for commiting rape; how can we, as a society, justify that?

      --
      Those who fail to understand communication protocols, are doomed to repeat them over port 80.
    52. Re:i'm not so sure... by Guspaz · · Score: 1

      Even worse, most DVD rips were ~700MB, and perfectly acceptable to the vast majority of people.

      With improvements in compression (h.264) over what we were dealing with last time (better MPEG-4 implementations like xvid by the end), one can expect reasonable quality on a 720p rip at about double the size. You've got a 2.66x increase in resolution from DVD up to 720p HD, and with the improvement in compression quality (and the fact that artifacts get less noticeable the smaller they are), I think doubling the bitrate is sufficient.

      You then get two-CD encodes that most people (read: the average computer user) thinks is OK. h.264 has in-loop deblocking too, which goes a long way to appeasing the average person.

      Still, DVD+/-R is the new popular format. Bandwidth has increased. As HDDVD/Bluray rips become more commonplace, I expect 1080p rips will most likely be released to fit onto a single-layer DVD, or about 4.4GB. Ignoring any consideration of quality, people like the convenience of a movie fitting perfectly onto their preferred optical format.

      So, yeah, you're correct, the "it's too large" argument doesn't hold any water today. You can already download 20GB copies of HDDVDs off the net, and many people do. Downloading something one quarter that size isn't a problem.

    53. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RipIt4Me works on Open Season. My three year old is now in the habit of pulling DVDs out of the sleeve and bringing the DVDs to me to watch (ugh, fingerprints). On hand backups for young 'uns are a must.

    54. Re:i'm not so sure... by greed · · Score: 2, Funny

      Which is why I gave up on that, and use Windows for two things: DVDDecrypter and Garmin MapSource. And DVDShrink. I use Windows for three things, DVDDecrypter, DVDShrink, Garmin MapSource, and Dungeon Keeper II....

      I really need to get a comfy chair.

    55. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Burstable cable speeds are not the same as sustained download. Here in Minnesota, a 4MB/s download is above average, the norm is still around 1.5MB/s. DSL upload rates are still several times better than what the cable providers will give you. This is definately incorrect. In my market the best DSL will give you is 384Kb upstream where as cable company has 512Kb upstream and 1MB upstream consumer level packages.

      Which illustrates that all of these generalization are crap. The norway guy is wrong the yanks are wrong.

      Also who the fuck cares about burst or sustained? This is all bullshit marketing material. Are you moving bits 24/7 from a fixed source? No you aren't. If you were you'd have been shut down by now for terms of service violation in the US. The differences between the two techs are purely academic for home broadband customers. Professional connections are different but that's outside the scope.
    56. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Note that he said symmetrical. I'd argue that the most consumer connections in the US does not have 6+ mbit upload.

    57. Re:i'm not so sure... by ucblockhead · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's all perfectly logical from the perspective of the re-download world. What they don't realize is that your neighbor is torrenting a copy from some guy in Denmark who is perfectly happy to put in the effort to actually copy the disk itself.

      The danger for the music industry is that their idiocy is actually making it easier for your neighbor to download (steal/pirate) the movie than to actually buy/download it in the legal manner.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    58. Re:i'm not so sure... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      The same story happened to me. At first I bought an expensive Sony DVD player just to notice that this doesn't play anything beside music CDs and DVDs correctly encoded. Then it took longer and longer to recognize slightly scratched DVDs (I have little children, so DVDs get scratched very easily), and finally it didn't recognize any of the DVDs my children liked to watch.

      What you apparently don't know is that Sony is the most incompetent company on the planet when it comes to making optical drives. Even fucking Coby makes a more reliable CD, DVD, or whatever kind of rotating optical disc player you can think of than those incompetents at Sony.

      Of course, it might be entirely competent - it might just be planned obsolescence. The thing disintegrates in a timely fashion so you go buy more of their shit.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    59. Re:i'm not so sure... by AJWM · · Score: 1

      Dude, that Ars Technica article on "falling DVD sales" is two years old, and referred to "theatrical releases" (movies). IIRC, sales of season sets of TV shows started to ramp about then too, and is still going strong.

      They certainly weren't falling in 2005 because of HD competition.

      --
      -- Alastair
    60. Re:i'm not so sure... by nuzak · · Score: 1

      > SONY Dreamworks doesn't get it.

      Viacom owns Dreamworks. Not Sony.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    61. Re:i'm not so sure... by brouski · · Score: 1

      OT, but this is why I canceled my Netflix subscription. I got tired of getting invested in a movie then having it freeze into unwatchability during the final act.

      --
      Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
    62. Re:i'm not so sure... by illumin8 · · Score: 1

      I bought Open Season.
      Why on earth would someone intelligent enough to make a Linux Media Center want to watch that terrible movie? Seriously Sony, I want those 2 hours of my life back!
      --
      "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
    63. Re:i'm not so sure... by FunkyELF · · Score: 1

      OT too, but maybe you should use a DVD player that costs more than a DVD?

    64. Re:i'm not so sure... by palmucci · · Score: 1

      I have a Helios H4000. It is a cheap Chinese DVD player. It is also the best DVD player I have ever owned.

      It is cheap because it is somewhat shoddily put together, and sometimes the buttons bounce.

      It is the best player because it completely ignores the restrictions typically imposed on DVD players in at lease 2 ways.
      1) It will upsample to 1080p through composite cables (really important if you have an older HDTV, which I do)
      2) It will skip the opening menus and other crap and start playing the main feature immediately.

      No player from the more mainstream companies will do these things.

    65. Re:i'm not so sure... by laffer1 · · Score: 1

      Sony players do have trouble with legitimate DVDs at times. Older models also had the key combination to unlock region codes. You can google for that information with your model number. The newer DVD players from sony are less picky. I haven't checked if they still play CD-i though. (yeah i won't pony up to rebuy a few things on DVD.. maybe if combo players or one hd standard wins..)

    66. Re:i'm not so sure... by sarathmenon · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I could suggest a virtualdub clone or another amazing program if you still want to give linux a try.

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
    67. Re:i'm not so sure... by egburr · · Score: 1
      That's why the sweet spot for movies is ~15-20 dollars (with pirates selling them for around $5).

      My sweet spot for movies is $5 on the pre-viewed rack at Blockbuster. It is not worth the extra $10-$20 to get an unopened box. Yeah, I usually have to wait an extra two to six months before it is available that way, but I have seen very, very few movies that were worth the extra cost to get them quickly. In fact, I've usually seen it on TV before finding it in the discount rack; the main reason I buy it then is to have it available when I feel like watching it and to not have commercials.

      Of course, the first thing I do then is rip it with DVD Decryptor (or equivalent), delete all the ads and control-locks, and burn it to disk, then shove the original to the back of the top shelf. Now I have a nice user-friendly DVD that I am not worried about the kids scratching and that will let me go directly to the main menu when I put it in. Now, when I rent a disk, I get really frustrated at having to wait for all the ads to finish before the menu button will work, so I rent less often than I used to.

      --

      Edward Burr
      Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
    68. Re:i'm not so sure... by brouski · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry I didn't skip my mortgage payment to buy a DVD player, but I think I did alright.

      --
      Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
    69. Re:i'm not so sure... by Eivind · · Score: 1

      There's not that much overhead. With zero overhead you'd get 6000/8 = 750KBps, in actual practice I tend to get about 700. So, ok 100MB/700K = 142s. True. 2 minutes something, not 1.5. Big deal.

    70. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've yet to find any DVD that I've been unable to rip via HandBrake on my Mac. I guess I'll have to see if it can rip Open Season (whatever that is.)

    71. Re:i'm not so sure... by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      Soon we will be able to meaningfully express the number of times you have posted this as a percentage of the number of comments in the Slashdot database.

      Yet still nobody agrees with you.

    72. Re:i'm not so sure... by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Home broadband in the USA is still mostly asymmetric. That's great for downloading stuff from iTunes, but for any other application a crappy upstream is crippling. Personally, I use min(up, down) to compare different services - but I'd suggest sqrt(up * down) as a good compromise if you see higher download speed as an advantage.

      Based on that, a 6 meg symmetrical connection is slightly better than a 15/2 asymmetric connection - which seems about right.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    73. Re:i'm not so sure... by blincoln · · Score: 1

      It breaks the movie industries business model. A lot of their revenue comes from selling old titles on new formats.

      Does it? I seem to recall a period of almost two decades where there was only one format, and the movie industry seemed to do just fine.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    74. Re:i'm not so sure... by SpecBear · · Score: 1

      You're partly correct. They don't want regular Joes making copies, but it's not to prevent piracy. It's to prevent format shifting. It's to screw honest people so that they can be charged for any possible use of the product. They want to sell you a copy on DVD, another copy for your iPod, and another copy for your PSP. This encryption does absolutely nothing to stop people from copying rented movies. Just make a complete bit-for-bit copy of the encrypted disc, and an authorized player will play it just like any other.

      If I want to format shift and I don't care about copyright law, I won't waste time fighting encryption. I'll download a DRM-free version, convert it to whatever format I like, and do what I please with it. But if I'm a good little consumer, I won't download an illegal copy. I'll try to make a copy from the version I've legally purchased, and when I fail I'll sigh and dutifully purchase another copy in the desired format, if it's even available.

    75. Re:i'm not so sure... by blincoln · · Score: 1

      Future revisions could allow for a pool of blacklisted keys. Any key in the blacklist will be ignored, regardless of whether or not it's in the list of acceptable keys. Every entry in the blacklist is write-once. Sure, you'll only be able to store a limited number of keys in this blacklist, but you don't need to store an unlimited number - just enough to be inconvenient.

      Spam the blacklist with enough entries to fill it to capacity as the first thing you do when you buy a player. Or am I missing something?

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    76. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There's nothing like purely anecdotal generalization to prove that an entire corporation is evil. Here's more pointless anecdotal evidence to counter yours: my Sony players are reliable and play everything I throw at them. In addition, the build and design quality is quite high, especially compared to the other players I've owned.

    77. Re:i'm not so sure... by Fordiman · · Score: 1

      Feh. A real linux junkie would build his own frontend.

      --
      110100 1101000 1101000 1100110 0 1101111 1101000 1100011 1
    78. Re:i'm not so sure... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Not really. It's a bit of an arms race, and my idea is only a theory anyhow.

      Were you to spam the blacklist, the obvious thing to do after that is to fix it so the oldest entries in the blacklist are automatically overwritten every time a new HD-DVD is inserted. Unless you're constantly spamming it, you'll never quite know what you can and can't decode. Perhaps if the blacklist could only be populated by a hidden area of the disk which isn't writeably in commercially-bought HD-DVD-R's.... but then doubtless someone else would come up with some other fix for that.

    79. Re:i'm not so sure... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Replying to myself here, but hey...

      I realise my suggestion breaks the idea of the blacklist being "write once". But if it's only writeable from a hidden area, I don't see that as being an issue.

    80. Re:i'm not so sure... by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

      Ah but this is an issue of copy protection not region distribution. Yes the market has decided that the region locking was too strict. But it is much harder to find DVD players that do not honor macrovision. I have an old tv set in my bedroom with only an antenna input. I tried plugging-in my dvd player trhough the VCR it did not work because of the macrovision. I just could not find dvd player anywhere that I could do a remote code to get rid of macrovision. I bought one where there was a bug in the original firmware where you could get around the macrovision by fiddling with the output settings, not the ideal situation since it would not stick. But the one that I got had a firmware date that was a month later than the posting on the web and this particular bug was fixed. Lots of other bugs like video and audio losing sync remain. I have a feeling that the manufactures treat keeping the video producers happy with a high priority. I just had to buy a $10 rf modulator (actually I am on my second since the quality of the first and more expensive one was so terrible).

      Actually, in your case it's the macrovision in the VCR that's the problem, not in the DVD player. If the VCR didn't honor macrovision it wouldn't have any trouble passing the signal through without disruption. If it was the DVD player that was the problem, an RF modulator wouldn't fix it...

    81. Re:i'm not so sure... by metamatic · · Score: 1

      Yet still nobody agrees with you.

      Funny, that's not what the recent article trailed on Slashdot said.

      e.g. this guy, this guy, and this guy who actually works in the industry.

      --
      GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
    82. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Do they not understand, that if you can view it, you can copy it?

      This, in literal sense (to put a videocamera in front of a TV or a microphone in front of a speaker), is often seen as the last resort for making copies. Of course this is a low quality solution. The problem is that the industry has an answer for this also: recording devices that refuses to record watermarked contents. Industry sure knows that analog equals vulnerable, so they are making a lot of efforts to close "the analog hole".

    83. Re:i'm not so sure... by Technician · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would someone intelligent enough to make a Linux Media Center want to watch that terrible movie? Seriously Sony, I want those 2 hours of my life back!

      I have kids... I mentioned that in the parent post..

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    84. Re:i'm not so sure... by felipekk · · Score: 1

      Meanwhile, here in Brazil I just got 1024/512 KB/s. I think the "average" here is somewhere near 600/256 KB/s. Btw, I'm paying something like 60$ for that ADSL.

    85. Re:i'm not so sure... by GWBasic · · Score: 1

      Look, they're running a business, so they're not aiming for perfection, just profit. The protection is supposed to keep your neighbor from putting a HD-DVD and a blank into a computer and getting a perfect copy half an hour later. It is not supposed to keep a group of Chinese from remastering the disc with professional equipment.

      I'd say that "they" are turning into Adam Smith's Landlord. The entertainment industry is turning copyright into a method of extracting rent by holding back innovation...

      Or, in other terms, the entertainment industry is using DRM to try to force you to pay more for entertainment then it's worth; as a result, they are holding back innovation.

      I'm being burned by DRM. I ripped all of my CDs into my entertainment system, yet I can't easily rip my DVD-Audio and SACDs. This is a mistake that I won't make with High-def disks.

    86. Re:i'm not so sure... by A+Life+in+Hell · · Score: 1

      wine+dvdshrink is the way of the future

      --
      Commodore 64, Loading up the dance floor!
    87. Re:I'm not so sure... by Thomas+Shaddack · · Score: 1

      A real linux junkie will just write a wrapper script. While pointclickistic interfaces have their place, they are way too overused.

    88. Re:i'm not so sure... by rts008 · · Score: 1

      Because "Rape, Pillage, and Burn" is a time honored concept in our society for centuries past for those gaining in power (just like a "pirate attack"). Thus the "piracy"(which pirates also contributed to Rape, Pillage, and Burn policy) which is being associated with copyright infringement has to carry the same or worse penalties as actual piracy no matter how outmoded the concept.

      So, it's only fair that so called "pirates" nowdays get to rape AND infringe on copyrights with the same impunity (or lack of) as their ancestors...oh yeah, don't forget Pillage and Burn while Raping during copyright infringing...it's all the same!

      P.S. for the pedantists out there: It's not PC (Personal Computer) to confuse Pirates(http://pittsburgh.pirates.mlb.com/index.js p?c_id=pit) with REAL pirates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate).

      It would be incomplete to attribute this model to only the MPAA...Don't forget the RIAA, or collecively as the **AA. Note there are TWO "*" in the acronymn, and should not be confused with any other organisations other than "MPAA or RIAA". (any other solution is not PC (politically correct), IMHO.

      Let the piracy begin....w00t! for Rape, Pillage, and Burn...bedamned about NewAge "refinements" on our language....comfort bedamned also.

      Serious note:"The penalty for copying a DVD can be higher than the penalty for commiting rape; how can we, as a society, justify that?"
      Blame it on Star Trek: Next Generation, that's where the Ferengi evolved and was noticed by "our society"(ie:marketing/advertising)...Profits Come First, humanity and mankind come in second.

      Face it: you can't pick up a magazine, visit a web page, watch TV, rent a DVD, etc., without some kind of extraneous marketing getting in your face.

      Why yes, I only post when drunk...but social constructs limit my ability to pose my opinions in an effective way.

      --
      Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
    89. Re:i'm not so sure... by Eivind · · Score: 1
      Symetrical is uncommon with the traditional (as in TelCo) providers in Norway too. There's it's mostly 1-20Mbps ADSL downstream, and about an order of magnitude less upstream.

      There's a few new agile highly competitive isps though, and for those symetrical is the norm. The catch is that they're mostly only available in cities, or require multiple adjacent dwellings to sign up at once (to make installation worthwhile) or both.

      Lyse offers 6/6 20/10 and 50/25 (all Mbit/s), so really only their lowest speed is symetrical. But 25 Mbit upstream rocks fairly heavily anyway, despite being trumped by the 50 downstream.

      BKK are even more radical. They offer one speed only: 100Mbit full duplex symetrical. Sure, if their customers actually started using 1% of the capacity, they'd go broke or need to up prices drastically. But it's not likely Grandmother Betty will start downloading 30 TB/month anytime soon. (even using 1% of capacity would be 300GB/month, a small fraction of heavy users will actually use this much, most people won't.)

    90. Re:i'm not so sure... by Eivind · · Score: 1
      It depends on your usage. For *most* users 15/2 is functionally identical value to 6/6, because either is like an order of magnitude more than they really ever use. This goes for both my parents and all my grandparents for example. For these, anything over say 0.5 0.1 is functionally identical, so they should quite simply go for the cheapest alternative.

      For most *heavy* users, downstream is significantly more important than upstream. If your main use is porn, Linux-isos, webradio, streaming TV, shareware or suchlike, then upstream doesn't much matter.

      For a few, upstream is just as important. The main group is probably today those that order a lot of digital photos printed. Modern digicams, even consumer-level ones produce 1-10MB of data with each shutter-release, ordering up prints from 100 such files can easily mean uploading a GB. Which is annoying with slow ADSL.

      There's a few people actually running servers from home too, but those are the nerdy minority, such as ourselves :-)

    91. Re:i'm not so sure... by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      Yes. That format is called "film reel viewed in theater."

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    92. Re:i'm not so sure... by MMC+Monster · · Score: 1

      Seriously, where can I buy Bluray & HD-DVD movies at the same price as the DVD counterparts, at $20? I have a 1080p TV and would like to give it a whirl, but was going to wait it out (until the format wars are over and there is some promise that output will not be degraded over component video, since that's what my 2 year old A/V receiver can handle).

      As for what I said earlier, what percentage of HDTV owners actually view HD content? My dad thinks DVDs are high definition. Until he sees real HD, he's not even going to contemplate a switch.

      --
      Help! I'm a slashdot refugee.
    93. Re:i'm not so sure... by Damastus+the+WizLiz · · Score: 1

      I have had netflix for a few years now and i have had maybe 2 or 3 at most unplayable disks.

      --
      I often have trouble remembering which way is out of bed in the morning.
    94. Re:i'm not so sure... by hank · · Score: 1

      I've had the same unplayable disc shipped back to me 3 times despite me returning it as unplayable everytime. The scratches looked familiar, so I took a sharpie to the sleeve, and sure enough it came right back. I even had some cracked discs. All this in an under a year service.

      I guess it all depends on your regional warehouse, the number of subscribers in your area, and your mailman.

    95. Re:i'm not so sure... by MetalliQaZ · · Score: 1

      When a disc is terribly scratched or cracked and they send it back, simply throw it in the garbage and report a missing disc. That happens so often they make no fuss about it. Plus, its not like you are hurting their bottom line. The disc was damaged anyway. If anything, you saved them a few superfluous shipping fees.

      -d

      --
      "Here Lies Philip J. Fry, named for his uncle, to carry on his spirit"
    96. Re:i'm not so sure... by mink · · Score: 1

      Clearly you do not own any of the 12 versions of PS2.

      --
      Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.
    97. Re:i'm not so sure... by mzs · · Score: 1
      It is not a n issue of what is at fault.

      If it was the DVD player that was the problem, an RF modulator wouldn't fix it...

      The macrovision works by fiddling with the signal at times when no image would appear on screen. The RF modulator passes that on, just the TV does not care. It is the AGC in the VCR that gets confused.

  2. Give it time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and it will join the ranks of every other DRM mechanism devised.

    1. Re:Give it time... by pookemon · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah - but who wants to wait a whole day for that to happen...?

      --
      dnuof eruc rof aixelsid
    2. Re:Give it time... by James_Aguilar · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I had a little LOL at that one. I've got mod points but I'll save them, since I know you're going straight to +5 funny anyway.

    3. Re:Give it time... by quarrel · · Score: 1, Funny

      Wouldn't it take a hole day? :)

      --Q

    4. Re:Give it time... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With press coverage every odd numbered day about AACS keys being revoked for the 158th time, even the great grandma's of this world will know (and have reason) to hack the DRM. Stories like this one on slashdot and other media sites are screaming out to the world... "YES: YOU CAN HACK ME, PLEASE DO!".

    5. Re:Give it time... by SnowZero · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've got mod points but I'll save them, since I know you're going straight to +5 funny anyway.

      I hope you are proud of yourself; You're what's known as a "tightmod".

    6. Re:Give it time... by Goaway · · Score: 1

      Except that AACS is actually significantly better than pretty much "every other DRM mechanism devised". That is not to say it has solved the un-solvable problem of making it possible to watch something while at the same time making it impossible, but it definitely stands a better chance than most and it will not go down easily.

    7. Re:Give it time... by Elbowgeek · · Score: 1

      With this new update, no longer will spotty fourteen year olds be able to crack the AACS code. Instead it will take spotty fifteen year olds.

      --
      Who is this delectable creature with an insatiable love of the dead?
  3. Serious Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "Corel has told users of its software that failure to download the free patch will disable the ability to play high-def DVDs."

    Is this making a reference to the current crop of HD's that were purchased? Does the software phone home? Just curious. Any thoughts?

    1. Re:Serious Question by der'morat'aman · · Score: 1

      I suspect that it's only related to future discs, though you never can tell with Digital Restrictions Management. I wouldn't trust it at all if I could get any legal DVD's without it.

    2. Re:Serious Question by topical_surfactant · · Score: 4, Informative

      Current players will work fine until you attempt to play a new HD-DVD with the "corrected" AACS. Then your player will cease to play all HD-DVDs until such time that you update with a hot, steaming pile of DRM horse shit.

    3. Re:Serious Question by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      The currently known keys can play all currently released disks. Any keys discovered in the future will be able to play all disks released up until that point.

    4. Re:Serious Question by Goaway · · Score: 1

      It means that they are changing the keys on future discs, and they will not play in an old player that does not have the new keys.

    5. Re:Serious Question by nuzak · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. They simply won't play newer HD-DVD's. Keys are revoked by simply not putting them on new discs. Of course the end result is pretty similar -- your player is still effectively bricked for any new disc you purchase. I'd love to see what they do with in-car players, assuming they ever make them in HD. There seems little point for such small screens, but people will want to take their HD discs along with them and still expect them to work. Perhaps these players will still work, but with the Image Constraint Token enabled. On a car player, you'll never notice. To actually brick those would be to brave the collective wrath of soccer moms nationwide.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
    6. Re:Serious Question by topical_surfactant · · Score: 2, Informative
      Don't shoot the messenger, champ.

      "Our recommendation is for anyone using HD DVD or Blu-ray disc playback to download the update in order to ensure that both their existing titles and newly purchased titles will continue to play," Hughes said. "If someone inserts an HD or Blu-ray disc with the new licensing keys, it will result in HD/BD playback of previous titles being disabled until (users) install the free update."

      (From the end of: http://news.com.com/Analyst+Corels+DRM+patch+only+ a+bandage/2100-7355_3-6174893.html )
  4. We fixed it properly this time... by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Interesting
    so don't even bother to try hack it. Please don't, please, please, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase.

    They really want this to be perceived as tight to sign up content providers.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  5. What about the other holes? by Tragek · · Score: 5, Informative

    "AACS is a high-profile technology and is protecting high-profile content, so we fully expect there will be future attempts," Ayers said.

    How about future successes ?
    1. Re:What about the other holes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You are entirely right. The volume key hack is pretty solid. In fact, if the Microsoft HD-DVD player were to be revoked and require a firmware patch to the existing runs of drives to play new discs, it really wouldn't make any difference at all. See the thing is, now that it is understood how to bypass AACS through the volume key, AACS could in fact keep revoking keys until they're blue in the face, but the process of extracting the volume key is already known, so it makes no difference.

      Also, let me point out, I haven't read the code in its' entirety yet, but if I understand correctly, the volume key crack should actually be immune to key revokation, based on my understanding of AACS, key revokation should only effect device ids and once a method of extracting a volume ID is known, the revokation mechanism just no longer matters.

      Of course, I'd also like to point out what others have already said. If a program exists that can read the data and decrypt it, then it's 100% obvious that the program can be reverse engineered. This is not an opinion, it's fact. I have on many occassions bypasses hardware dongles, FlexLM, trial periods, etc...

      bypassing hardware dongles requires that you reverse engineer the driver to the dongle, this is just plain easy, all you need to do is find a disassembler that can handle the format, or if it's a kernel mode driver, then you just use a kernel mode debugger... not an issue. when you locate where the driver is being attached to from the program itself, then you just emulate the hooks. Even the most advanced dongles are easy to hack this way.

      FlexLM... well... come on... this one is just so easy it's not worth talking about

      Trial Periods... they can vary... depends on how obscure people want to make the code. But for the most part, they're not that hard. For example, I found a function reference in a DLL on PcAnyware (don't remember the version) called "TimeBomb()" which returned a boolean value. Not really that hard huh?

      As for HD-DVD and BluRay... if all else fails, run the player (really really slow) through an emulator like QEmu and trap all IDE calls. Log the previous 1000 instructions run before the hook and then log until the first picture comes up. Then just review the log and read the source code left in the log. Hardest part is making it pretty enough to read... but if it means that much to you... well no problem.

      - So... in brief... copyprotection is just a joke... laugh at it!

    2. Re:What about the other holes? by CopaceticOpus · · Score: 1

      This is exactly what I was hoping would happen. With the XBOX 360 HD-DVD player cracked, what are they supposed to do? Microsoft will throw their huge weight against any suggestion of revoking the player's keys. And if those keys did get revoked, I think they would have finally gone far enough to see a serious consumer backlash.

      I'm rooting against AACS for a simple reason: I want to buy hardware, software, and media that is 100% devoted to enabling me to do as much as possible as easily as possible. I don't want to pay more to include technology that's trying to tell me what NOT to do. I hope the futility and anti-consumer nature of these restrictive practices will soon become too obvious to ignore.

    3. Re:What about the other holes? by Znork · · Score: 1

      "I think they would have finally gone far enough to see a serious consumer backlash."

      If you consider that the difference between SD and HD isnt that obvious to the average ordinary viewing circumstances (see the earlier article on 1080p), and if they simply display upscaled SD instead of HD content if the key is revoked, I suspect that most consumers wouldnt even notice.

      Of course, as most DVDrips arent even SD quality, I'm not exactly sure how they imagine degrading to SD is going to prevent any random copying anyway.

    4. Re:What about the other holes? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      FlexLM... well... come on... this one is just so easy it's not worth talking about

      I worked somewhere where we used a bit of software that was licensed using FlexLM. We were running late on the project, and near an important deadline, the software stopped working - the license had expired (joy), and we currently had no money to pay for the (very expensive) extension.

      Our genius polymath borderline autistic sysadmin tried many different solutions to try to fix it, but could not do it.

      After a day or two, I jokingly asked if he'd tried turning the clock back on the machines. His eyes lit up and he left the room. Came back in 15 minutes and said "Yes, that fixed it."

      Then proceeded to give me some face-saving BS about how he never thought the software would be that stupid, and ranted for about 15 minutes about how rubbish FlexLM was.

      I mean, don't get me wrong, FlexLM is shit, but I didn't need to hear it from someone as incompetent as him.

    5. Re:What about the other holes? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 1, Informative

      Volume key hacks are not solid. How many times is it necessary to point this out on discussions about AACS? The specification contains a wide variety of traitor-tracing algorithms that let you find a hacked player key given only the released volume keys, or even only the decrypted video itself.

    6. Re:What about the other holes? by snemarch · · Score: 2, Interesting

      bypassing hardware dongles requires that you reverse engineer the driver to the dongle, this is just plain easy, all you need to do is find a disassembler that can handle the format, or if it's a kernel mode driver, then you just use a kernel mode debugger... Or keep using IDA on the driver. Or do a mix of IDA and one of {windbg, softice, syser}. And probably add some private/homecoded tools for dealing with obfuscation and protection.

      when you locate where the driver is being attached to from the program itself, then you just emulate the hooks. Even the most advanced dongles are easy to hack this way. Yes, it's obviously always this simple, also when the dongle actually runs code... *cough* Bottom line: while you're basically right that anything will eventually be broken, you're making it sound a bit easier than it really is.
      --
      Coffee-driven development.
    7. Re:What about the other holes? by harl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is exactly what I was hoping would happen. With the XBOX 360 HD-DVD player cracked, what are they supposed to do? Microsoft will throw their huge weight against any suggestion of revoking the player's keys. And if those keys did get revoked, I think they would have finally gone far enough to see a serious consumer backlash The backlash will range from minor to nothing. One day you will turn on your XOBX 360 and it will said there is a new update ready for the XBOX 360. It will download and install. There are no easily available patch notes when you are in front of the machine. It will have some cool new feature in the dame update like the more informative achievement notification that is already announced. The update will change the keys. The vast majority of 360 owners will never know there was a crack nor that there was a key revocation/replacement.
      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    8. Re:What about the other holes? by TheSkyIsPurple · · Score: 1

      I don't know the folks involved, but I've been in similar situations... I've bypassed many systems over the years.

      Initially, rolling the clock back did it, but most systems started paying attention to that, and it wouldn't work.
      When it didn't work for enough times in a row, that particular tool slid to the back of the tool belt, and if you don't use a tool enough, you can forget about it entirely.

      Alternatively, I've run into the situation where adjusting the clocks wasn't an option because of other stuff running on the systems.

    9. Re:What about the other holes? by Technician · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have on many occassions bypasses hardware dongles, FlexLM, trial periods, etc...

      I instead of pirating and cracking, took the other road. I voted. Anything that required a hardware dongle is and always had been rejected. The new tack is using your hardware as a dongle with online activation. This is also rejected.

      It is the primary reason for my move to Ubuntu instead of Vista.

      It is the reason I did not accept the free upgrade to Light Factory. The upgrade removes the dependance on MS SQL server (hurrah), but also changed from a registration key (encoded with user name) to a single hardware online auth (boo hiss). I wrote the company and let them know why I moved to Freestyler instead. I am now moving to Q-Light a Linux console as part of my move from Windows.

      Anybody want Lightfactory starter edition?

      Vote against dongleware with your wallet. Don't pirate, use an alternative.

      What do you think is more upsetting to Microsoft? Pirating MS Office or switching to Open Office? On one they can take legal action. On the other which is more offensive to them, they can do nothing.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    10. Re:What about the other holes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Not so fast. There are two possibilities:


      1)The 360 won't get another volume key until MS can demonstrate that they've patched the flaw. Since the XBox uses an external device for HDDVDs, it may be difficult/impossible to fix the flaw without replacing hardware - even if it's easy to replace the key.
      2)Microsoft throws its weight around and gets a new key without fixing the flaw. The new volume key is extracted before the old one even gets revoked.

      The first possibility looks grim for Microsoft, and will be quite a nuisance for 360 owners. The second is game over for AACS. Possibility 2 may happen a couple of times before possibility one is realized, but either way, this is going to be a pain in the ass for those in charge of AACS.

    11. Re:What about the other holes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No need for traitor tracing with this one, because everybody already knows it's the xbox 360 hddvd drive that's doing it. It works like this: every HD-DVD drive has to be able to read the volume id. Normally an elaborate handshake and security arrangement keeps you the casual programmer from just asking the drive for the volume id.

      In the case of the xbox 360 hddvd drive, this can be defeated by sending certain CDB commands to the drive. You basically put the drive in debug mode, poke a few bytes, ask it for the volume id of the disc, then take it out of debug mode.

      NO amount of private host key revocation can fix this hole for them.

      Of course a volume ID by itself doesn't decrypt anything, but it's a big part of the process.

    12. Re:What about the other holes? by BobPaul · · Score: 1

      Anyone extracting Volume Keys from disks is not using the XBox 360 drive with an XBox, so no, there will not be an update that effects those doing the real work. It might just be more difficult to find a drive to do that work with in the future once MS starts selling updated drives and the drives that are attached to XBoxes are updated.

    13. Re:What about the other holes? by BLKMGK · · Score: 1

      Yes I believe that's the SKB keys - not in use yet and probably won't be deployed until they have tried software armoring and other techniques. It's already being discussed in depth at Doom9...

      --
      Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
    14. Re:What about the other holes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I jokingly asked if he'd tried turning the clock back on the machines.

      Every single software that allows the product to be used for some time after doing a security check (e.g. an online check) can be cracked this way. Simply keep an exact (dated) copy of the whole OS (take a snapshot of the running system) and you know you'll always be able to run that software for at least as long as the program allows between the checks. This is something the software can very hardly protect against: if it allows you to use it for some time between two security checks, it is toasted. Of course if the time between two checks is 5 minutes it may not be that convenient... But then that means the program stops working if the online connection is down, which most companies do not do. Some companies prevent their software from working inside a VM, but in this day and age of virtualization (and hardware virtualization), it is becoming harder to sell such software and harder to detect if the environment is virtualized or not.

      One impossible scheme to crack, when done correctly, is the one that mandates you to be always online, like to play, say, World of Warcraft. Sure, you can attack one user's machine and sniff his password but you won't be doing it on a large scale. Should you manage to hack into Blizzard's servers, if the scheme is done correctly you should normally not even be able to steal other people's passwords.

      This one is really close to "game over" for the pirates.

    15. Re:What about the other holes? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      I jokingly asked if he'd tried turning the clock back on the machines.

      Every single software that allows the product to be used for some time after doing a security check (e.g. an online check) can be cracked this way.

      Er, well, yes. That's why I jokingly asked him that, because if it was me, that would have been the first thing I would have tried, not something I thought of after 2 days. I asked as a joke, because it never occured to me that he wouldn't have tried that. Especially considering how clever he thought he was.

      Apologies if I didn't make that clear.

  6. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I give it 5 minutes.

    Maybe 10.

  7. Corporate Spin by JonathanR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't you just love the corporate spin: The AACS (Advanced Access Content System) just happens to be a mechanism to deny access to the content. The moniker certainly makes the technology appear benign to Joe Sixpack consumer.

    1. Re:Corporate Spin by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      See also... FairPlay... PlaysForSure...

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    2. Re:Corporate Spin by init100 · · Score: 1

      The AACS (Advanced Access Content System)

      Advanced Access Content System, what a strange name. I'd think it would be much clearer if it was called the Advanced Content Access System or even better the Advanced Content Protection System.

    3. Re:Corporate Spin by Ciggy · · Score: 1

      Isn't it "Advanced Access-Control System"

      --

      A rose by any other name would smell as sweet;
      A chrysanthemum by any other name would be easier to spell
    4. Re:Corporate Spin by init100 · · Score: 1

      That would be a reasonable expansion, but according to the AACS organization, AACS is really Advanced Access Content System, however stupid it is.

    5. Re:Corporate Spin by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      AACS (Advanced Access Content System)

      You mean the Attempted Anti-Copying System, surely? Acronyms only have the meanings we assign to them. If DRM can become "Digital Restrictions Management", then we can fix this one, too.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    6. Re:Corporate Spin by AJWM · · Score: 1

      The AACS (Advanced Access Content System) just happens to be a mechanism to deny access to the content.

      I have no doubt that the acronym originally stood for Advanced Access Control System before some PR or marketing types got hold of it.

      --
      -- Alastair
  8. Prediction of next article's title by davidmillions.com · · Score: 1

    HD-DVD Hacked (again)... This is just going to be a never-ending cycle.

    1. Re:Prediction of next article's title by SnowZero · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, it'll end when they run out of keys to revoke. AFAICT, the set is finite.

    2. Re:Prediction of next article's title by Baddas · · Score: 1

      Well, probably on the order of 2^32 or so... so not really infinite, but not exhaustible either. :P

    3. Re:Prediction of next article's title by Goaway · · Score: 1

      It's pretty safe to say that you know nothing about AACS nor the current hacks against it.

    4. Re:Prediction of next article's title by caramelcarrot · · Score: 1

      Only a few billion keys? That could be brute forced easily :p

    5. Re:Prediction of next article's title by SnowZero · · Score: 1

      You mean the part about how every player has a set of (253) device keys which it uses to process the media key block using the subset-difference algorithm, and how those keys are effectively shared among many players? Or do you mean the corollary that many repeated revocations would eventually force a revoke of the keys needed by a non-compromised player (or run out of MKB space, depending on how lazy hardware player manufacturers got with their buffers)? Now, they may have partitioned software and hardware players into separate subtrees, so revoking software players will never cause a hardware player to fail, but eventually people will hack some of the hardware players, and revocation then becomes a very sticky issue. And no, that probably won't require stripping the cpu like you claim in other posts. All modern hardware players will have CPUs, ROMs, and RAM, and there's a lot you can get from monitoring those. How do you think all the consoles got hacked? Sometimes, manufacturers will even leave solder points for a JTAG for you, how helpful! Joe Sixpack does not want to come home someday with a HD-DVD that doesn't play, when he has done nothing wrong himself -- but that's what will happen eventually if they really try to revoke every compromised key.

      Or do you mean that I don't understand Muslix64's hack of scanning memory during playback initialization and trying each memory location as a key to find the one that decrypted the data files to valid video streams? Sure, the player will try to cover its tracks better by attempting to obscure the memory, but if a computation occurs on a processor, there is always going to be some way of recovering it. Or do believe that obfuscation will actually stop people from finding the key? It's not like hackers haven't been breaking those sorts of protections on games for 20 years or anything... clearly they are going to be helpless.

      Your other posts reveal similar misunderstandings, such as this one where you state that each player has a single unique key, which is wrong[1,2]. Then there's this post, which shows you don't know about the player "bricking" ability build into AACS[3] (although its not used in this first revocation).

      No, it's pretty clear you either have no idea what you are talking about, or you are trying to be deliberately misleading. Go ahead, call me dumb and troll like your posting history indicates you enjoy. I only started reading Doom9 in January, so I'm a n00b don't know what I'm talking about...

      [1] Section 3.1, Advanced Access Content System (AACS) "Introduction and Common Cryptographic Elements"
      [2] Post by "FoxDisc" on Doom9 forum, topic "Understanding AACS (including Subset-Difference)"
      [3] Section 4.8-4.9, Advanced Access Content System (AACS) "Introduction and Common Cryptographic Elements"

    6. Re:Prediction of next article's title by Goaway · · Score: 1

      And no, that probably won't require stripping the cpu like you claim in other posts. All modern hardware players will have CPUs, ROMs, and RAM, and there's a lot you can get from monitoring those. How do you think all the consoles got hacked?

      Because they are far more complex devices and can't just integrate all circuitry onto a single chip, like you can with a media player? I doubt they would allow anything critical to be transferred on externally accessible buses. If they do, that's a big fuckup.

      Or do believe that obfuscation will actually stop people from finding the key?

      I believe it will drastically shrink the pool of people who have the necessary skills to break the obfuscation. All the content providers need to do is make it hard enough to do that there is nobody among those who have the skills to do it that are interested in doing it. If this is possible or not is an open question as of yet, but it's obviously only going to get harder from here out.

      Your other posts reveal similar misunderstandings, such as this one where you state that each player has a single unique key

      Well, excuse me for not wanting to write a pages-long explanation of the subset-difference algorithm every time I want to make a point. I see you did the same thing when you said that the "set of keys is finite", which obviously isn't the problem here - it's finite but much too large to exhaust - but instead there are side effects when revoking large numbers of keys.

      Then there's this post, which shows you don't know about the player "bricking" ability build into AACS

      I did in fact not know about that, but nor will I take any slashdotters word for it, as the miscomprehensions about AACS flow freely around these parts.

    7. Re:Prediction of next article's title by Baddas · · Score: 1

      well, I'm saying 2^32 usable out of maybe 2^1024 possible keys. IE two functions, one to generate, one to authenticate.

  9. "Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If that's "fixing the flaws", then I guess whenever I fill my gas tank I'm "inventing perpetual motion".

    The flaws aren't fixed. They're just papered over slightly more aggressively. Don't worry, there'll be more flaws.

    --
    Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    1. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      That "flaw" being fixed...

      How does that work for the people that purchased media that
      used the keys which are now expired....

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    2. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 1

      Well, if they already purchased it, it just works - it's not like they can modify the disc media from a distance. Those people have nothing to worry about.

      The real issue is people who purchased [i]players[/i] which used the keys which are now expired. Those people must update their players. In the case of WinDVD, that means downloading an update. In the case of the XBox360 drive that will involve downloading an update. (The XBox360 key is not yet revoked, and in theory they might not revoke it.)

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    3. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      Well, if they already purchased it, it just works - it's not like they can modify the disc media from a distance. Those people have nothing to worry about.


      Until they purchase a new player and expect to play the old
      media on it....
      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    4. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      What happens if a disc using the revoked keys is placed in an HD-DVD player that no longer uses those revoked keys? As you noted, the disc cannot be changed from a distance. Does it turn into a coaster as far as all future HD-DVD players are concerned?
      If so, I imagine less technical users of those discs & players will be extremely annoyed. Think of all the HDTVs that can't pick up hi-def signals because the standards changed. This'll feel like that again.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    5. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 4, Informative

      No, that will work fine too. They haven't changed a global key of any kind. They've just revoked the old key for new media. All the newer keys still work fine. You can conceptually think of it as all discs supporting thousands of keys, some of which are used by players and some of which simply exist for future not-yet-constructed players to use - there's plenty of possible keys left for new players to work on old discs.

      When they revoke keys, they simply remove the old compromised keys from new discs, so players relying on those keys can't play anything.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    6. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Duhavid · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, OK.

      You learn something old every day. Well, I do anyway.

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    7. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 1

      I have just answered that same question here :)

      Summary, though: a disc can be decrypted by an entire set of keys (I don't know the actual count, but I suspect it's at least thousands) and they can be revoked one at a time on a disc-by-disc basis. They won't be adding new keys (since that creates the exact problem you've described), they'll just be revoking old compromised keys, and presumably they have enough keys ready that they don't believe they will run out.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    8. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 5, Funny

      For a system which is fundamentally doomed to failure, AACS is pretty well-designed. :)

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    9. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by reub2000 · · Score: 1

      I can see this turning into a cat and mouse game with hackers finding keys and then having the keys disabled. And of course the victim in all of this will be the person who wants to play their legitimately bought dicss when they have to constantly update the keys on their HD-DVD or Blu-Ray player. Plus, how many keys do they have before they exhaust them all?

    10. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, I think that's pretty much what everyone expects (at least, everyone besides the people making DRM.)

      If I'm interpreting http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=122363 correctly, there would be 2^22 or 4 million possible keys available. I honestly don't see them running out anytime soon. On top of that, the AACS encryption could be extended pretty much indefinitely, and if the actual implementation is cleverly done, it may be possible to extend it without breaking any hardware players (at least, any players which aren't already revoked - if they actually start running out of keys it would have to be thanks to lots of hacked keys.) I truly don't expect this to happen - they're smart enough to be careful of this.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    11. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by joe_adk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Plus, how many keys do they have before they exhaust them all?
      They probably have somewhere around 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,45 6 (some math type dude could prob give you a more accurate number). But I doubt that they would use every combination.
    12. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by MacroRex · · Score: 1

      But I doubt that they would use every combination. Yes, that would be pretty silly since "brute forcing" a key would be quite easy if every possible combination was valid.
    13. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

      obligatory quote from the princess bride...

    14. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Technician · · Score: 1

      When they revoke keys, they simply remove the old compromised keys from new discs, so players relying on those keys can't play anything.

      A slight correction.. Playing a new movie with a revoked key will disable the player the key was issued to. Playing a new movie in the compromised model player kills it. It will no longer play ANY movie until it is replaced or updated (software player).

      If only it was as simple as it just won't play new movies.. They do not want you to use the player with the revoked key because if they didn't kill it, you could continue to rip older movies. Killing the player prevents it's use for other movies not yet ripped. If you are lucky enough to have this player, all you need to do is do an online upgrade to the software which fixes the loophole and re-enables playing new and old DVD's. No patch, no workie.

      For a software player, there is probably the fix, of reinstalling it on a new hard drive and avoiding new movies to continue ripping older movies. As long as the player doesn't require online activation, there should be no way to prevent this. If it requires online activation, then your pretty much done. Activation would require an upgrade to a non-compromised version.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    15. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by harl · · Score: 1

      You don't need to make them revoke all or even a significant portion of the keys. You can cause vest damage to AACS with 1 key revocation. If you can get the key from a highly popular millions of units sold stand alone player and publish it then AACS is in trouble. Then they have to make the hard call of basically bricking millions of devices. Then the government steps in. It would be the best thing for DRM ever.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    16. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      A slight correction.. Playing a new movie with a revoked key will disable the player the key was issued to. Playing a new movie in the compromised model player kills it. It will no longer play ANY movie until it is replaced or updated (software player).

      Would you like to point us to the part of the AACS specs that specify this functionality?

    17. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 2, Informative

      For the millionth time: AACS players have individual keys. You never need to revoke an entire line of players, because you can just revoke a single physical unit.

    18. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Technician · · Score: 1

      Would you like to point us to the part of the AACS specs that specify this functionality?

      Stick a new disk in your old player with the revoked keys and see what happens. It doen't play the new disk and won't play the old ones either until the player is upgraded.

      Anyway Page 58 of the agreement near the bottom of the page..

      http://www.aacsla.com/support/AACS_Interim_Adopter _Agreement_060215.pdf

      It's easy to find. Do a search of the PDF for disable

      It's the part where they describe disable products or devices where the security of the AACS Technology has been compromised by 3rd parties.

      --
      The truth shall set you free!
    19. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by harl · · Score: 1

      1. Please document your claim.

      2. This makes no sense. If your key gets revoked just grab another device do the exact same thing. This will be trivial as absolutely no research is needed. Release the key. This process is significantly cheaper and quicker than revoking the key rendering the whole revocation process pointless unless they do it over a wider range than device.

      3. Please explain this quote, from TFA, from Michael Ayers, chairman of the AACS License Administrator, "The device keys associated with the InterVideo player are being deactivated and InterVideo has updated its player," Not key but keys. This quote indicates all InterVideo keys are being deactivated not simply the one used by the cracker.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    20. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      1. See the AACS specs.

      2. It is certainly not trivial to get the keys out of a hardware player. It takes a significant amount of work at a facility that can strip and electron-scan microchips, and then the reverse engineering work to figure out the results from that scan (and the keys might not even exist in plaintext at that level so you may have to reverse engineer the entire workings of the chip to find the keys). The reverse engineering step might be signigicantly easier the second time, but actually getting at the internals of the chips is still very costly. As those keys can then be made useless with hardly any effort, it does not make economic sense to engage in that battle.

      3. Physical devices get individual keys. Software players share a key, which is supposed to be revoked every six months even if there are NO breaks, because updating the keys in a software player is easy and one does not need to go to the same lenghts as with hardware players.

    21. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you have the obligation here. Whoever makes the claim has to back it up. Not the other way around. Not putting your money where your mouth is indicates deception.

      As for the reverse engineering you're talking about the first device. She's talking about the n+1 device. Apples and Oranges. I'm willing to bet that if you have 2 identical devices the second one will be multiple orders of magnitude easier to extract from.

      So you're not even talking about the same things. You just butted in to feel smart and aren't addressing the same things nor backing up claims you make. Which would make it /.!

    22. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      This part?

      AACS LA shall not Expire AACS Keys [...] to disable
      products or devices where the security of the AACS Technology has been compromised by third parties, other than as described in Sections 10.3.1 through 10.3.5 above.


      Not only does it talk about not disabling devices, but it does not describe a mechanism for disabling devices beyond the normal key revocation, which does not affect old discs.

      Perhaps you were thinking of some other document?

    23. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      I think you have the obligation here.

      The subset-difference algorithm takes some effort to explain properly, and I will not go into that just because somebody on the internet is too lazy to look up the references themselves. I can, however, supply the required Google search:
      http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=subset-difference &start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

      As for the reverse engineering you're talking about the first device.

      Re-read my reply, where I specifically addressed that already. The reverse engineering part applies mostly to the first device. The actual physical work of stripping and scanning a circuit applies to every subsequent attempt too.

    24. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by harl · · Score: 1

      It's not laziness. I have no obligation to back up your statements as I didn't make them.

      --
      I find being offended by me offensive.
    25. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Quikah · · Score: 1
      Will not disable...other than as described in Sections 10.3.1 through 10.3.5 above. In other words, if the events described in section 10.3.1-10.3.5 happen then it expires the keys in the device. 10.3.2 says if the key was extracted or disclosed in violation of the license agreement. That pretty much covers all the hacks I would think.

      here is a description of the mechanism for updating the drive.

      http://www.aacsla.com/specifications/specs091/AACS _Spec_Common_0.91.pdf

      Section 4.8 and 4.9

      ...If the version of MKB recorded on the media is higher than the version of HRL that the drive has stored in its non volatile memory, the drive verifies the signature in the Host Revocation List Record of MKB as specified in section 3.2.5.2. If the signature is successfully verified, the drive shall replace the previously stored HRL data, if any, with the newly read HRL data...
      --
      Q.
    26. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      You kind of have an obligation to actually understand the things you are making arguments about.

    27. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      That section still talks about key revocation and not disabling a device entirely. But that is not really interesting anyway.

      The host and drive revocation lists are for revoking software players and computer drives, not hardware players. Granted, revoking a computer drive is still pretty drastic, but it can't be used to revoke a stand-alone player. I don't think they'd dare actually use it, but who knows?

    28. Re:"Fixed Flaws"? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      By that logic everyone has to know everything about every topic and discussion would be impossible.

  10. security breech by caitsith01 · · Score: 5, Funny

    security breech

    Is that like a chastity belt? Or maybe an adult diaper?
    --
    Read Pynchon.
    1. Re:security breech by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Funny
      If it comes from anybody that does DRM, I sure as hell wouldn't want to put it on (I'd imagine it to be something with spikes pointing inwards, somewhere around the rectal area...)

      --
      Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    2. Re:security breech by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes it is a thing that is put over the hole in the middle to prevent people from illegal copying unless it is in a trusted device.

  11. Advanced Content Denial System by Erris · · Score: 1

    and other digital restrictions only available with Vista. On second thought, I'll pass.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
    1. Re:Advanced Content Denial System by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      Oh look at that! It's not 'only available in Vista', it's in every commercial HD-DVD and Blu-ray player. It also only comes in to play if the content providers turn it on. Strangely enough, unless you buy DRM content, DRM isn't an issue. Isn't it funny how that works?

      I also love how you quote a competing operating system's propaganda site as a 'reliable source'. You're getting sloppy, Twitter.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
  12. Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Marcion · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I read this bit:

    "New high-def DVDs will include updated keys and instructions for older versions of the PC-playback software not to play discs until the software patch has been installed."

    No one gives my computer instructions but me. So I will have nothing to do with either of these formats at all. I am just gonna say no and take my business elsewhere.

    DVD is quite fine, and where it doesn't then there are hard drives. Hollywood can give me movies in a format I'll accept or they can e2fsck off.

    1. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      You have the right to not watch their movies, but why do you think you have a right to pirate them?

    2. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by ThePiMan2003 · · Score: 1

      Where did he say he was going to pirate them? He merely stated he did not like other people controlling his computer.

    3. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by SimonInOz · · Score: 0

      >> Where did he say he was going to pirate them?

      This is where
      >>>> Hollywood can give me movies in a format I'll accept or they can e2fsck off.

      "give" ... it costs maybe 150 million bucks to make a Hollywood movie. I see no reason why Hollywood should "give" the movie to anyone. It is, after all, a business. How would *you* make a crust if you could not charge for your services?

      (Oddly, I see music as somewhat different. It doesn't actually cost an enourmous amount to make an album. A fair bit, yes - but these days AFAIK (IANAM) the music companies spend more on the video than actually paying the band. So I reckon giving away music and selling concert tickets might work very well for a band. But not a music company, EMI's experiment (good on them) not withstanding. But this can't work for movies, can it?).

      But I digress. Yes, he *was* implying piracy, albeit weakly.

      --
      "Cats like plain crisps"
    4. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Informative

      anytime you purchase a dvd they are giving you the dvd - in exchange for money. dude, seriously just give up and admit your wrong, and that you jumped the gun. he made no suggestion of piracy at all, just that he was voting for a better format with his wallet - and i agree with him and i suspect most other people do to.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    5. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      Translation: you're

      a) illiterate.
      b) a troll.
      c) an illiterate troll.

      Hope that works out for you!

    6. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by mstahl · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah see this is what always gets me about the DRM thing. Either you make it playable or you make it secure. Pick one.

      The Sony rootkit fiasco really brought home, for me, the need of consumers to assert their rights over their devices. This computer on which I'm writing this is mine. If I had the choice of hardware that would do what I told it or hardware that would obey the whims of the MPAA/RIAA, I'd choose the open hardware. Given the choice of software that does what I tell it to or software that doesn't, the choice is obvious. If there is no choice, I write my own software.

      The most insulting thing about the rootkit incident, as well as many such events since, is the notion that just because I'm using my computer to play content owned by someone else they somehow they own my hardware. That's simply not the case.

      Here's what I want to know. They're sending a patch to the software that plays the discs, right? It's already too late to change what's on the actual discs because too many are already in the wild, so to speak. What if I just don't update my software/firmware? Or better yet, what if I write my own?

    7. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by ppanon · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nah, it takes 150 Million dollars to make a Hollywood blockbuster where you spend 1/3 on whiz-bang special effects, 1/3 on salaries for "star" actors and directors, 1/4 for advertising, and the rest for actual preparation of sets and filming. You can still make decent movies today for about $10 million or less; it's just that you then need actual solid plotting, scripting, and acting because you don't have $140 million to paper over crap.

      And as the price of Pro HDTV cameras and computers + digital editing S/W drop, you will be able to do a pretty decent all digital-straight to video for a lot less. Sure, you'll still have substantial costs for lighting equipment, audio equipment, makeup, getting filming permits, and so on. But you won't necessarily need to spend money on film and film processing. That's going to open the door to a lot more student and amateur film-making efforts. And yeah, it will still meet Sturgeon's Law, but there *will* be a lot more good stuff mixed in the avalanche of garbage that will fill sites like YouTube.

      --
      Laissez lire, et laissez danser; ces deux amusements ne feront jamais de mal au monde. - Voltaire
    8. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by LocalH · · Score: 1

      New discs. You won't be able to play those unless you update, or until more keys are exposed.

      What would be fun is if somehow all keys were exposed. What would they do then? It'd be CSS all over again.

      --
      FC Closer
    9. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by QuantumG · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Best time travel movie I've ever seen. Cost of development? $10,000. Seriously.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    10. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by EvilIdler · · Score: 1

      I'm sure pirates will find a way to strip discs of keys to revoke, anyway.

    11. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by clickclickdrone · · Score: 1

      >the music companies spend more on the video than actually paying the band
      Most contracts require the band to pay for the videos. Good huh?

      --
      I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
    12. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can still make decent movies today for about $10 million or less; it's just that you then need actual solid plotting, scripting, and acting because you don't have $140 million to paper over crap.

      Indeed.

      Look at Infernal Affairs - the original from which "The Departed" was remade - done in Hong Kong it had a budget of roughly 5M USD at the time. The Departed had a budget of roughly $90M and that does not take into account advertising. That's almost a 20:1 ratio and many people argue that "Infernal Affairs" is still the better movie.

      Look at "Il Mare (Siworae)" - the original from which the recent Keanu Reeves/Sandra Bullock "The Lake House" was remade - a budget of under 2M USD versus roughly $40M for the remake and if IMDB's ratings are anything to go by, the original was better. Again a 20:1 ratio.

      Furthermore, South Korea regularly turns out top caliber movies and yet the most expensive film they've produced, The Host, had a budget of $10M. Most South Korean productions are well under half of that, often closer to $2M, and their quality easily surpasses most of what Hollywood does.

      South Korea is one of the few markets in the world where local productions regularly beat out Hollywood for ticket sales (in part because of screen quotas, but that changed recently due to the US State Department doing the MAFIAA's biding and it still didn't put a dent in local cinema). These movies focus on story rather than flash, so there are less special effects. But otherwise the movies look just as good as anything from Hollywood - professionally lit, professional wardrobe, make-up, cinematography, and of course the most important part -- great story telling.

      While production costs are cheaper in South Korea and Hong Kong than they are in Hollywood, they are not necessarily less than for a lot of "run aways" where Hollywood outsources various parts of the production to cheaper parts of the world.

      So, yes it is easily possible to outdo Hollywood and even produce 'blockbuster quality' (if quality is the right term) movies for far far less than Hollywood does right now.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

      I hope its better than the trailer. To me it was just a flashy piece that didnt really say anything accept that it was well edited, had good sound and good title effects.

    14. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you use their software, then the software will choke when it encounters a disc produced in the future. That disc will contain a revocation list, and when your player finds itself on the revocation list, it will refuse to play all AACS-content (including stuff that previously worked), until you update. If you write your own software without a license, you violate the DMCA.

    15. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Kjella · · Score: 1

      If there is no choice, I write my own software. (...) Or better yet, what if I write my own?

      Then you go to prison for DMCA violation (or EUCD violation, if you're in the EU). You bought it, but unless you use a blessed player with the accompanying restriction, you've paid 30$ for a piece of plastic.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    16. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Raptoer · · Score: 2

      anytime you purchase a dvd they are giving you the dvd - in exchange for money
      not exactly, thats what blank DVD's are, when you purchase a DVD with content on it you are buying the physical media and the rights to view it.
      when you buy anything in an electronic format (music, game, software, book, ect...) you are really just buying the license to view and use it, where the data itself comes from is irrelevant.
      If you buy an album, then go home and download it, you are not doing anything morally wrong (I would say legally but I really have no clue if it is legal or not in the US)
    17. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      At the advice of a friend, I watched it. I went in with low expectations, and it was a decent movie.

      The acting was great. Everything was spot-on. It looked like the director and editor did a great job, too.

      Where it falls down is the page. The first 3/4 was too slow and the last 1/4 was way too fast. It's almost like they got almost done filming and said 'Oh crap, we gotta explain this!'

      It's far from 'Best time travel movie ever' as 12 Monkeys and Millennium were both better. Heck, even Back to the Future was better.

      The low budget definitely shows right from the beginning. It's not a major detractor, but it shows.

      Worth watching? Yes, once. You won't get anything extra from watching it a second or third time, like you would with Memento and the like.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    18. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      I wonder about the monopoly issues involved with that. If they are the only ones who can approve software... That's a monopoly. I wonder if you could write a HDDVD player application and then sue because you were kept out of the market by unfair practices?

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    19. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 2

      "give" ... it costs maybe 150 million bucks to make a Hollywood movie. I see no reason why Hollywood should "give" the movie to anyone. It is, after all, a business. How would *you* make a crust if you could not charge for your services? Because it's an investment that's been returned three times over in the course of the first weekend the movie comes out. It should be Public Domain right after that.
      --
      Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
    20. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Ant+P. · · Score: 1

      Hollywood can give me movies in a format I'll accept or they can e2fsck off.
      Personally I'd prefer them to reiser4fsck off, so that they're completely screwed and unrecoverable

    21. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by syntaxglitch · · Score: 1

      Hollywood can give me movies in a format I'll accept or they can e2fsck off.
      Personally I'd prefer them to reiser4fsck off, so that they're completely screwed and unrecoverable Unrecoverable except for a bit of blood found in Reiser's car, at any rate.
    22. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by bensch128 · · Score: 1

      It seems like if the new DVDs are telling the DVD-playing software to ignore certain keys, it should be easy just to delete the censored key file or hack the software to ignore the key file. Of course Im sure AACS is a much more powerful and complicated protection scheme then this.

      But that's what I'm reading...
      Ben

    23. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Marcion · · Score: 1

      Yup, cheers for sticking up for common sense.

      I am happy to buy movies, but if Hollywood will not sell films in a format that does not require handing over control of my PC, then I will just buy independent films, locally made films and so on. I have already been doing that with music for quite a while now, buying independent stuff from magnatune etc.

      I am not sure that it will come to that though, I think they will still sell me DVDs for a long time to come. I can also just go to the cinema and watch it for half the price, or see it when it comes on TV. It has never been easier to 'just say no' to the new round of media formats.

      To be honest, a lot of Hollywood movies have been pap recently, while some TV programmes have a higher budget than a movie would have done a decade ago, the balance has shifted so much that a movie would have to be quite good to beat my favourite TV programs.

    24. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by bogjobber · · Score: 1

      One of my favorite movies of all time is Tae Guk Gi. I've never been to Korea and I don't speak Korean, but that movie is incredible. Compare its $12 million budget (according to Wikipedia) to the $70 million budget of Saving Private Ryan and Enemy at the Gates, both of which I enjoyed. It's not as powerful as Apocalypse Now or All Quiet on the Western Front, which I consider the best two war movies ever made, but it is a great movie with incredibly well done special effects. Visually it surpasses any of Hollywood's recent movies, even Saving Private Ryan. If it would've been made in the US, though, I guarantee you it would've had a budget of over $100 million.

    25. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Worth watching? Yes, once. You won't get anything extra from watching it a second or third time, like you would with Memento and the like.

      I disagree, actually. You might actually understand it after the second or third viewing. :)

    26. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      Or I might have understood it the first time. I read/watch a -lot- of Scifi books/movies. It takes some thing completely new and novel for me not to just understand what theory they are talking about. In fact, I even found flaws in their plot.

      If the mold grows in a few minutes instead of a few months, why does it take 8 hours to go 8 hours back in time? Shouldn't it be more like 8 seconds? They never even -tried- to explain the apparent paradox of killing yourself. And assuming it's the parallel worlds theory, what GOOD did it do them to go back in time and try over and over again? They just left a string of worlds that were screwed up and only had 1 where things went okay. And for such a minor thing, too. Was it really worth weeks of their lives to fix that? What happens when the next 'bad' thing happens. Will they spend more weeks of their life to 'fix' a 5 minute problem?

      No, the movie is quite a bit overrated by people who THINK they think deeply, but actually don't.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    27. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by IronChef · · Score: 1

      Agreed. I liked it so much I even flogged it on my web site. Primer is a great film.

      Review:
      http://wrongcrowd.com/article.php?story=2005042601 2015820

    28. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      You are right about Tae Guk Gi's budget. In all the hype for "The Host" somebody fibbed about it being the most expensive one so far. I should have known to double-check it myself against some of the other "big name" Korean flicks.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    29. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by jdbo · · Score: 1

      > If the mold grows in a few minutes instead of a few months, why does it take 8 hours to go 8 hours back in time?

      IIRC, the mold effect was a variation on the effect which they used to implement time travel - i.e. they sacrificed the faster-than-real-time-travel aspect (? great nonsense term, there) for stable control of where in the time stream they ended up.

      It's been a few years since I caught this, but my recollection is that this was one of the more "engineer-oriented" aspects of the movie's style that impressed me (as a nice demonstration of the trade-offs that occur between inspiration and implementation, exactly the sort of thing that most sci-fi-tech movies bypass).

      Also, I think the movie works on two levels - the very well written-and-acted level of the main characters and their character arcs, and the incremental revelations of the plot. Whether or not the plot is perfectly self-consistent, the thematic and character work are integral to the plot and vice versa, and I found that to be truly impressive given the complexities of the story.

      Whether or not the film works as a hard sci-fi piece seems irrelevant to me, as I don't think it was really aiming to presen a coherent theory of time travel. The film is really more of a character-based piece about the abuse of power in a sci-fi setting, made more unique by its matter-of-fact presentation.

    30. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by SimonInOz · · Score: 1

      .. Because it's an investment that's been returned three times over in the course of the first weekend the movie comes out.

      Indeed. Some movies do that. But most don't.
      Back to the problem of the business model. Movie making is a risky business. Lots and lots of money upfront, then a possible bonanza. Or not. ("Snakes on a plane", anyone? Please?)

      The only known way to make risky businesses pay is to have a high payoff for success.

      Let's look at the alternative - I recall reading a book with this theme once, nobody made movies any more - sorry, concentrate, Simon, concentrate.

      Let us assume that all movies get pirated the instant they are released
      Some people will go to see movies at a cinema - some income there for sucessful movies
      Many people will watch DVDs - but they'll commonly be pirated, so not much income there
      In some countries, even the movies at the cinemas will be pirated, so no income there
      TV rights - nah, everybody will simply get the pirate version from the internet. No income there

      So - minimal income. And bingo, no movie business. Is that what we want? We desperately need some sort of balance here. I don't see any hope of an "open source movie business", do you?

      I'm not trying to support the really obscene RIAA practices. But I am seeking an alternative.
      We do need ways to pay for high risk endeavours. There are many of these (space exploration, scientific reseach, business risks of all kinds, mining exploration, most innovation) and we need them all. Movie making is a notable one.

      So how do we pay for it? Government support doesn't work, that's for sure.

      Any ideas?

      --
      "Cats like plain crisps"
    31. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      I could almost buy that explanation if they'd explained that AT ALL and they hadn't chosen real time as the basis. They were timing it to the minute anyhow, right? And it didn't matter if they got the exact microsecond correct, either. Anytime close was good enough.

      Why not make it 8 times as fast as normal? Spend 1 hour lying there like an idiot instead of 8. Worst that could happen is you are 8 minutes off your prediction. Whoopee.

      Sorry, I just don't buy that.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    32. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Kaki+Nix+Sain · · Score: 1

      About the mold: The mold just sat in the machine running through the same time loop again and again (until someone outside at the later end of the loop pulled it out). They jumped out when they were back at the earlier end of the loop. A full cycle of the loop is twice as long as the machine has its resonating field going. The mold rode through some large number of shorter loops, they were never in for longer than 1/2 of the longer loop.

      About killing your past self: They never did that.

      --

      (C) Kaki Sain, 2011. By reading this, you have illegally copied my property to your brain.

    33. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Aladrin · · Score: 1

      The loop ran from when power was applied to when it was removed. Simply placing it in the same field they were in would not have make the mold go through the cycles at that rate. It had to be different.

      As for killing themselves: Watch the end again. I believe it was the last 10 or 15 minutes. They showed it several times, at least once by poison, and talked about how helpful it was to know your 'victim's' reactions for sure.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    34. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by Kaki+Nix+Sain · · Score: 1

      The mold was different because it went through the loop more times, due to uncontrolled entry and exit from the box+field. It experienced months in the box by bouncing back and forth through the same minute of time as seen outside the box. Like a photon bouncing between the mirrors of a laser only has a small chance of coming out the hole in one mirror, the mold only had a small chance each time it came to the later end of the loop of coming out of it as the field collapsed.

      I disagree that they ever killed their past selves. They clearly drug them and knock them out, but that is all that is clearly shown. And the "sounds in the attic" imply that at least some of their past selves weren't killed, just hidden out of the way. There is at least one shot showing one waking up confused. This is a pretty good timeline that I agree with on the major details.

      --

      (C) Kaki Sain, 2011. By reading this, you have illegally copied my property to your brain.

    35. Re:Even more reason to have nothing to do with it by jdbo · · Score: 1

      Now I really need to see the movie to clarify my memory, but my recollection is that the original effect they discovered was due to the chamber creating a back-and-forth oscillatio through time w/in the chamber; i.e. items within the chamber travelled back and forth through time at several times "real time" speed. By slowing down this effect to "real-time" they were able to stabilize the "exit point" to effectively aim for the beginning and ends of the "oscillation" (wrong term, I know).

      As far as the "real time' aspect of time travel in the movie, it enables more interesting storytelling; without any physical or psychological restrictons on time travel,
      linear storytelling goes right out the window instantly; the limitations slow down this process so that the later (earlier?) actions of the characters are actually surprising, and the breakdown of linear progression is felt by the audience, rather than simply understoof.

      Furthermore, it fits in with the "everyday" aesthetic of the film; they can't travel anywhere through time, they can only visit the near-present. It creates a grounding effect, and the increasingly strange events have a surreal affect, rather than a dry, cerebral one.

      All that said, I can understand that te film would be disappointing from a hard SF POV, esp. as (for most film reviewers) it would be the closest thing to hard SF they would see, and they would describe it in terms creating that sort of expectation among those who are actually familiar with the genre (I sorta recall the first hard SF short story I read; it involved gravity around an unstable planet, and actually included all of the equations - plausibly!- within the story. Fun!).

  13. What about the lazy customer? by ibib · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I am just wondering what "normal" customer's will think, I mean - geeks and technophiles understand the the new efforts to close AACS is just not a solution, just another workaround in a loosing battle. But I wonder what normal people think, I really doubt that average Joe will think that a patch to this system is really a good thing. Most people want to be able to copy their content, make backups, etc. One of the benefits for a lot of people with the DVD format is that DVD players are available as region free players, you can copy disks from friends, etc. I'm not saying that piracy is necessarily a good thing, just that far too many (and increasing) people enjoy that and that in itself will be a problem for the next-gen media players.

    1. Re:What about the lazy customer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A tiny tiny tiny percent backup and trade their DVDs. Most people just want to put the disk in their player and play it.

    2. Re:What about the lazy customer? by Techman83 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem is when Joe Six pack comes home on a friday night with a case of beer, couple of mates and a latest release movie, they are going to be mighty pissed off when there player prints "please update your dvd player" or something like it.

      Christ, It's not entirely difficult for someone that isn't phased by technology, but I know if I've kicked on my couch on a friday night with a beer, the last bloody thing I want to be doing is getting up, searching for my model of "insert new format player here" downloading the firmware, burning it to a disc, updating it, just to watch a movie I bought/rented.

      I'm just gunna stick to DVD for the time being, My mythbox has no trouble playing those!!

      --
      # cat /dev/mem | strings | grep -i cat
      Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
    3. Re:What about the lazy customer? by kosmosik · · Score: 1

      > you can copy disks from friends, etc. I'm not saying that piracy is
      > necessarily a good thing

      Mind that in normal countries copying a disk is not a piracy. I can legally copy any disk I own and hand it over to a friend or relative and still it is not a piracy. If the disk (which is MY) itself is protected in such way that it disallows me to copy it I can legally crack it to be able to make a copy of MY disc (which I have paid for). At least this is how it looks here in Poland.

    4. Re:What about the lazy customer? by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Some people dont have, or want, computers... It will be even more hassle for them to get the updates just to watch a shitty movie, and will completely ruin their evening.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    5. Re:What about the lazy customer? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      the new efforts to close AACS is just not a solution, just another workaround in a loosing battle

      It may be a "loosing" battle, but it's not a workaround, it's part of the plan from day one. AACS was designed to be resistant against leaked keys of all kinds, because the designers knew this was going to happen sooner or later, and the measures put into effect now are those that were put into place for dealing with this.

    6. Re:What about the lazy customer? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A loosing battle? Isn't there a limit to how loose these monsters can make things!?! The ramifications of everything being so loose after a full on battle are astronomical!

  14. Respin by ewhac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "Makers of software for playing the discs on computers will offer patches containing new keys and closing the hole that allowed observant hackers to discover ways to strip high-def DVDs of their protection. On Monday, the group that developed the Advanced Access Content System said it had worked with device makers to deactivate those keys and refresh them with a new set."

    No no no. Let's just tidy that baby up a bit:

    "Makers of software for playing the discs on computers are requiring consumers to download patches that will re-apply the product defects that computing professionals had removed in the weeks prior. Despite the fact that nothing is technically wrong with the older versions of the software, it is being intentionally rendered obsolete to force the update -- no new movies will be viewable on the old software."

    Schwab

    1. Re:Respin by Bert64 · · Score: 1

      Which also means that, sooner or later people will be forced to upgrade other components if they want to continue playing media...
      I have an old P2 laptop that can still play current DVDs... How long before all the non revoked HD-DVD players require vista, a 64bit machine and all kinds of other shit.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
    2. Re:Respin by Thomas+Shaddack · · Score: 1
      Don't worry. By then there will be an alternative, officially unsanctioned player, based on something that will be perhaps called libdeaacs, perhaps with automated key updates via Freenet-like P2P, running on by-then obsolete hardware like a breeze and ported to just about every mainstream OS. Perhaps like a VLC Media Player with added decoding library.

      Need brings solutions.

  15. AACS == Barn - Horse by Crash+Gordon · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ISTR that Muslix64's attack worked by identifying the keys in active RAM. So how does revoking the keys defeat this attack?

    1. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by roesti · · Score: 1

      So how does revoking the keys defeat this attack?

      The hackers only figured out how to get the old key. This is a new key. The hackers don't have the new key.

      What are you, stupid?

    2. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Jugalator · · Score: 1

      Maybe they store the key on a different memory address!

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    3. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Goaway · · Score: 1

      By tightening up the code so that it does not store the key in plaintext in RAM where it can be easily snooped? I'd expect somebody posting here to be able to work that part out for themselves.

      That is not to say that they actually did that, but it is certainly something they could do.

    4. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would wonder where you expect a program to store the decrypted key if not in RAM? Even your mega$$$ HD-DVD player would be decompressing keys to ram - it's just that you can't get to them nearly as easily as with a 'general purpose' PC.

    5. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Crash+Gordon · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The hackers only figured out how to get the old key. Which means they have a method for defeating arbitrary keys.

      The hackers don't have the new key. The new key can be discovered by the same method used to extract the old one. Even encrypting, splitting, or otherwise obfuscating the new key only adds a layer; the code is also exposed in RAM and can be reverse-engineered so ultimately the same attack should work.

      What are you, stupid? Yeah, that's me. Thanks for pointing it out.

    6. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Goaway · · Score: 1

      If you can't think of a way to do a decryption without storing keys in plaintext in RAM, you're not a very good programmer.

      First, you can keep things in registers and never write them to RAM. Those can still be snooped, but it is harder. Second, you do not need to keep the entire key even in registers at one time, especially as it won't fit in a single register anyway. And thirdly, you can obfuscate the algorithm itself so that it does not use the plaintext key values, but obfuscated ones.

    7. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by greed · · Score: 1

      And you have to do 'em all on a pre-emptive multitasking system, as your registers will get written to RAM during a context-switch.

      Even on a non-pre-emptive system, there's still interrupts to worry about.

    8. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Goaway · · Score: 1

      That's the least of your worries, really, because debuggers exist.

      Even so, getting obfuscated partial keys out of register dumps is *not* easy to do, even less so if you want to do it reliably and reproducably.

    9. Re:AACS == Barn - Horse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What are you, stupid?
      Yeah, that's me. Thanks for pointing it out.

      Your too stupid to understand sarcasm...

  16. They didn't fix anything by hyrdra · · Score: 5, Insightful

    They didn't fix any flaws. They just deactivated old keys and issued new ones. Supposedly InterVideo will be patched to be more secure (aka try to hide the new key). Maybe that is what they are talking about but it still does not fix any flaws by a long shot. Just look at all the cracked versions of software out there that have all kinds of fancy safety and protection mechanisms and are still cracked daily. As long as its in memory in unencrypted form for any amount of time, it can be obtained.

    What they have done is analogous to re-keying a lock that is susceptible to being picked -- it's only a matter of time before it is picked again. Lather, rinse, repeat. And how long before a hardware player is cracked? If I had one I'd bust into it to see what kind of flash it has. It probably has an on-board JTAG or other programming port to dump the memory like most consumer devices which are mass produced and then flashed assembly style, making obtaining the key quite easy. When the players come down in price I fully expect them to be cracked on a daily basis.

    --


    "I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
    1. Re:They didn't fix anything by Repton · · Score: 1

      And how long before a hardware player is cracked?

      Uh, yesterday. It's not small beans either: It's the XBOX 360.

      --
      Repton.
      They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
    2. Re:They didn't fix anything by bhima · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually they (the Doom9 crowd and the Xbox360 hackers) have already discovered a method that recovers Volume Unique Keys which is completely unrelated to the method they used before. One which doesn't require reprogramming the device (Although they have already done that as well)

      So not only was AACS not really fixed (Just the key revoked) the velocity of revocation process is slower than the hacking process. And this revocation was a key for a software package, I imagine that the process for revoking the key for a hardware device, like the external Xbox360 HD-DVD drive to be slower, a lot slower.

      Also given the nature of this sort of thing, I also figure pretty soon there will be increased interest in hacking a stand alone HD or BD player... as the price comes down I'm sure the allure of forcing revocation of a series of hardware players will attract attention.

      I know I'd sure like to do it, if only to annoy and embarrass the AACS group.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    3. Re:They didn't fix anything by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also given the nature of this sort of thing, I also figure pretty soon there will be increased interest in hacking a stand alone HD or BD player... as the price comes down I'm sure the allure of forcing revocation of a series of hardware players will attract attention.
      It doesn't work like that. Or at least it isn't supposed to work like that.

      The AACS scheme has the ability to revoke individual players - not individual models, but actual single units. They use a lot of fancy set theory to do it, but in essence each player is supposed to have a unique set of keys - possibly hundreds of keys out of a total of many thousands (hundreds of thousands perhaps). Each disc has the information on it to allow thousands of different keys to decrypt it. The way it works is that of all the keys on the disc, it is expected that each individual player will have at least one key that matches.

      Thus the way they revoke a specific unit is (if they can identify the unit, say the guy was foolish enough to publish the keys he extracted) that they do a bunch of math to figure out what set of keys to put on the new discs such that the compromised player will not have any of his keys on the new discs, but all other players will still be able to find at least one matching key on the new discs.

      Remember that this is all in theory, and we have seen evidence that not all of AACS has been implemented yet or is even being used correctly. So it is entirely possible that some of the early units are "simplified" and every unit of a single production run or even every unit of a single model all have the same subset of keys on them. If that's the case, revoking one such player will revoke all such players. But if hardware manufacturers did it "right" then they are supposed to be able to revoke individual players.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:They didn't fix anything by bhima · · Score: 1

      As far as I can tell key revocation can target both individual devices and ranges of devices.

      I could be wrong but I really don't think so.

      --
      Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
    5. Re:They didn't fix anything by schizoid4 · · Score: 1

      But what good does it do to revoke an individual player when all other players of the same type can be compromised the same way?

    6. Re:They didn't fix anything by Kjella · · Score: 1

      The AACS scheme has the ability to revoke individual players - not individual models, but actual single units. ...which still fails to make up for all units in a series being exactly identical, and the key recoverable in exactly the same way. The math is fancy, but I fail to see how the break could manage to compromise just one unit. Even if what you did was an exceptional break like putting the chip under an electron microscope, you'd know exactly where to look on the next one.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    7. Re:They didn't fix anything by Grym · · Score: 1

      Question: What happens when Grandma's HD-DVD player stops working because her device's unique key has been identified by simple, old-fashioned brute force? How will the retailer she takes it to know that the problem is with the device if they revoke on the basis of individual units not models? And who pays to replace the player when/if that happens?

      -Grym

    8. Re:They didn't fix anything by jimicus · · Score: 1

      If "Compromise the same way" means instructions which involve taking the cover off, soldering a line onto a JTAG port and running a serial port to it, I really don't think that kind of compromise is going to be used by many people.

    9. Re:They didn't fix anything by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter in the slightest what the cause is. Most country's consumer law is worried about the effect.

      In this case, the effect is "My DVD player doesn't work any more and it's still in warranty".

      The solution is to repair/replace it. What exactly the problem is may be interesting to those on /. , but for grandma taking her DVD player back, it matters not.

    10. Re:They didn't fix anything by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      What happens when Grandma's HD-DVD player stops working because her device's unique key has been identified by simple, old-fashioned brute force?

      It's 128-bit AES. Even with hundreds of thousands of valid keys out there, brute force won't be cracking them any time soon. And as far as anyone knows today, the fact that there are multiple keys does not enable any attacks that are smarter than brute force either.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    11. Re:They didn't fix anything by schizoid4 · · Score: 1

      How many is many? If 10 people do it, that's 10 separate revocations the AACS administrators have to do. Plus they have to continuously watch for more instances of the same crack all day every day forever. Seems like a pain in the ass to me.

    12. Re:They didn't fix anything by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      If "Compromise the same way" means instructions which involve taking the cover off, soldering a line onto a JTAG port and running a serial port to it, I really don't think that kind of compromise is going to be used by many people.

      Exactly. They hope that attacks against hardware players will be expensive enough that even with a recipe, most people will not want to do it. But if a particular model is hopelessly easy to compromise and it gets a recall or something along those lines, they can revoke the entire production run, its just a set of multiple units instead of a set of a single unit.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    13. Re:They didn't fix anything by grub · · Score: 1


      If 10 people do it, that's 10 separate revocations the AACS administrators have to do. Plus they have to continuously watch for more instances of the same crack all day every day forever. Seems like a pain in the ass to me.

      Hollywood pays big actors zillions of dollars to appear in a movie, paying some chumps to revoke keys and watch for new hacks is pocket change for them.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    14. Re:They didn't fix anything by greed · · Score: 1

      So, you're advising getting the extended scam I mean warranty on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players? Otherwise, just revoke the player keys after they've been out of production for 90 days (or whatever the factory warranty is), and presto! Everyone now has a player that won't play new discs!

      The automakers can only dream of something like this. Or maybe OnStar can crash your car. (Hey, there's airbags, so the customer or insurance can buy another one!)

      There are countries where there's more than just the manufacturer's warranty that applies; the U.S. is mostly not one of them. (State-to-state legal differences....)

    15. Re:They didn't fix anything by schizoid4 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but those actors are bringing in zillions of dollars in revenues to offset the cost. Is AACS making enough money to pay for the cost of maintaining it? At some point some bean counter has to ask that question.

    16. Re:They didn't fix anything by grub · · Score: 1


      I don't think the entertainment suits see it that way, though.

      They seem to accept that DRM is a cost of doing business but it's measurable in a spreadsheet. They have no way of measuring the cost of piracy (other than bogus inflated estimates) so they seem to stick with the devil they know.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    17. Re:They didn't fix anything by schizoid4 · · Score: 1

      But if they only revoke individual players the cost of maintaining AACS will keep going up as new cracks are discovered. At some point they're going to have to either throw in the towel or start revoking entire models.

    18. Re:They didn't fix anything by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      The AACS scheme has the ability to revoke individual players - not individual models, but actual single units. They use a lot of fancy set theory to do it, but in essence each player is supposed to have a unique set of keys - possibly hundreds of keys out of a total of many thousands (hundreds of thousands perhaps). Each disc has the information on it to allow thousands of different keys to decrypt it. The way it works is that of all the keys on the disc, it is expected that each individual player will have at least one key that matches.

      Doesn't matter, because every copy of a movie has the exact same key that encrypts the actual movie (pressing discs relies on having a static image for the majority of the data, obviously small areas can be written individually). Discovering that key allows all HD discs using that key (all discs of a given release of a movie, for instance) to be viewed without DRM, and posting it on the Internet does not allow the MAFIAA to identify which player was used to extract the volume key.

    19. Re:They didn't fix anything by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Doesn't matter, because every copy of a movie has the exact same key that encrypts the actual movie (pressing discs relies on having a static image for the majority of the data, obviously small areas can be written individually). Discovering that key allows all HD discs using that key (all discs of a given release of a movie, for instance) to be viewed without DRM, and posting it on the Internet does not allow the MAFIAA to identify which player was used to extract the volume key.
      Congratulations. You are at least the second person in this thread to take a quote from my post, and then restate the sentence that came right after the quoted text. Aren't y'all special?
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  17. breech? by natrius · · Score: 2, Funny

    I feel sorry for anyone who has to give birth to DVDs, let alone backwards.

    Sharp edges. Ouch.

  18. The game continues by zappepcs · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I guess that nobody with VC understands that DRM is simply a VERY expensive, very stressful game of whack-a-mole.

    It amazes me that so many people believe that they can do the DRM game and make huge money. Recent news tells me that if the US government is trying to influence other countries to do more about copyright infringement, well then, DRM must not work worth a damn, otherwise there would be no need for US Governmental intervention. With that bit of proof that it won't work, doesn't work, and can't work, it should be relatively obvious to all concerned that the only way that DRM *CAN* work is if governments create laws that make it illegal to not use DRM.

    Media and content providers simply have to get on the right bandwagon... DRM isn't it. No matter what fantastically great work they do for any particular DRM scheme it will always end up broken. There is no method that can reasonably ensure secure keys when the unencrypted content has to be present to view it. Sigh, old dogs, new tricks, bad circus experiences....

    1. Re:The game continues by arkhan_jg · · Score: 1

      it should be relatively obvious to all concerned that the only way that DRM *CAN* work is if governments create laws that make it illegal to not use DRM.


      Yeah, cos copyright law is already so well followed by the populace, I'm sure they'd be all broken up about breaking another law enforcing the use of DRM. Other than that, good post.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    2. Re:The game continues by Bert64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      DRM is not for preventing piracy.
      DRM can never prevent piracy, sufficiently knowledgeable people will always be able to crack any DRM scheme. It's not like normal encryption where the key is unknown, your player needs to have the key in order to play the media, so it's simply a matter of extracting the key from whatever obfuscation scheme is being used to hide it, rather than having to crack the encryption itself.

      DRM is to prevent fair use, the people who buy legitimate media and exercise their fair use rights to make copies to play in their car, copies for the kids to ruin, rip to ipods etc, don't have the necessary knowledge to extract the keys so they will be forced to buy multiple copies instead of exercising their fair use rights, thus making the media companies more money.

      Serious cracking groups will go on cracking every copy protection scheme thrown at them. And the people who obtain pirate copies will continue to do so, and they will benefit from having the freedom to use their pirated copies anywhere.
      If you prevent piracy (and this is never gonna happen) most of these people will simply do without rather than start paying, many people simply cannot afford to pay full price.

      --
      http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
  19. Lesson by giminy · · Score: 1

    If someone does break the new key, just wait. Please, wait. Until the format war is over, and there are thousands of titles out, everybody has a player, etc. Then announce.

    Thanks for listening.

    --
    The Right Reverend K. Reid Wightman,
    1. Re:Lesson by physicsnick · · Score: 1

      Are you serious? Why? Are you worried that they'll eventually patch it enough that it will be unbreakable?

      If hackers wait until AACS is as ubiquitous as CSS is today before announcing a crack, then AACS will be a success. It needs to be cracked as soon as possible and as often as possible to show that DRM doesn't work.

    2. Re:Lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd rather annoy the content providers repeatedly, handing them public embarrassments as often as possible and forcing them to irritate Joe Moviebuyer to the point where he says "fuck it" and takes his money elsewhere.

    3. Re:Lesson by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alternatively, leave it a while, wait till there's a biggish consumer base, then crack the system. That way if they try the key revocation trick again a significant number of Joe Sixpacks will be have be forced to do the whole upgrade dance, which could become very noisy and entertaining to watch (and who knows, those involved might actually learn something from the experience).

  20. They don't get it - DRM is suicice by Erris · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The number one reason Vista is Sinking Like a Stone, is "DRM problems and lack of anything even remotely demonstrating an understanding of how users want to use digital media." If DVD makers tighten up, people are going to route around them the same way they are routing around the RIAA member companies. They will flock to independent film makers and the big dumb publishers will watch their earnings collapse at 20% per year. Their greed goes beyond the already insane limits of copyright and that kind of thing is simply not fun.

    --
    DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
    1. Re:They don't get it - DRM is suicice by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      Read the comments for the article you linked to. The author gets torn to shreds by people with actual knowledge of Vista.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
  21. Simply don't use these new 'format's by dpastern · · Score: 1

    It's that simple. Educate friends and family and loved ones on the tactics that are employed by the powers that be to various pieces of hardware and software.

    Just think - if 90% of the population boycotted music CDs and DVDs for an extended period of time, the RIAA and MPAA and others would get a very clear message that what they are doing is just simply not on. The hard bit is educating people to realise that they can make a difference, but that they have to show their view and their hand.

    Dave

    --
    Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    1. Re:Simply don't use these new 'format's by koolman2 · · Score: 1

      No, they'd just blame it on piracy and try to make DRM even more restrictive. However, if we were to start buying CDs and DVDs en masse again, they'd claim that it is due to the success of DRM. You can't win with these guys.

    2. Re:Simply don't use these new 'format's by dpastern · · Score: 1

      Yeah, you're right. We're damned...just as well I have a good sized vinyl collection :-)

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    3. Re:Simply don't use these new 'format's by Paulrothrock · · Score: 1

      No, the RIAA and MPAA will just assume that people can't live without their crap and that the loss of sales is due to increased piracy.

      --
      I'm in the hole of the broadband donut.
  22. Final Solution by pushing-robot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know I'm getting offtopic here, but I personally know some people who are rich, own copyrighted content, and are absolutely obsessed with controlling it. They're not people I can understand. They think that every reasonable fair use right should be carefully meted out by themselves alone, that they should be able to revoke rights to anyone at any time for any reason, that allowing a user to copy their content without explicit licensing and permission would be the start of some file-sharing apocalypse. It's not even so much about the money with them as it is the power and control. And every time they hear about DRM being broken they want some new, better way of controlling their media. As much as I praise EMI for their actions of late, I can't help but think the people I know represent the bulk of the **AAs. The more we prove DRM is useless to a customer that has access to the hardware and software, the more appealing "Trusted Computing" will become to the Industry. Add a nanny-state government to that and you've got a recipe for disaster. And the "average consumer" wouldn't raise a stink about it. Even a locked-down home-phoning appliance could run Microsoft Office and QuickBooks and HALO*, so 99% of people wouldn't care. Tell them it's more "secure" and they'll buy it. (...wait, they already play HALO on locked-down home-phoning trusted-computing appliances...)

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    1. Re:Final Solution by pushing-robot · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Well, that teaches me for not using preview. Here's the non-HTML-formatted version (with real paragraphs!):
      --

      I know I'm getting offtopic here, but I personally know some people who are rich, own copyrighted content, and are absolutely obsessed with controlling it. They're not people I can understand. They think that every reasonable fair use right should be carefully meted out by themselves alone, that they should be able to revoke rights to anyone at any time for any reason, that allowing a user to copy their content without explicit licensing and permission would be the start of some file-sharing apocalypse. It's not even so much about the money with them as it is the power and control.

      And every time they hear about DRM being broken they want some new, better way of controlling their media.

      As much as I praise EMI for their actions of late, I can't help but think the people I know represent the bulk of the **AAs. The more we prove DRM is useless to a customer that has access to the hardware and software, the more appealing "Trusted Computing" will become to the Industry. Add a nanny-state government to that and you've got a recipe for disaster.

      And the "average consumer" wouldn't raise a stink about it. Even a locked-down home-phoning appliance could run Microsoft Office and QuickBooks and HALO*, so 99% of people wouldn't care. Tell them it's more "secure" and they'll buy it.

      (...wait, they already play HALO on locked-down home-phoning trusted-computing appliances...)

      --
      How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
    2. Re:Final Solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Final Solution?

      Who could possibly object to a plan named the Final Solution?

    3. Re:Final Solution by schizoid4 · · Score: 1

      It's not even so much about the money with them as it is the power and control.

      My working theory is that **AA execs have been using their access to a large library of music/movies to impress chicks and they're afraid that's not going to work anymore.

  23. The right to pirate by essence · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You have the right to not watch their movies, but why do you think you have a right to pirate them?

    Because we can. Forget about laws in books, even forget that Bill Of Rights that some of you have, they get ignored all the time. Rights are yours if you have the means to enforce your ability to exercise your right.

    1. Re:The right to pirate by Spasmodeus · · Score: 0, Troll

      Rights are yours if you have the means to enforce your ability to exercise your right Cool, so if I have the strength to clobber you in a dark alley, and the cunning to get away without being seen, I am clearly just exercising my right to take your wallet! I eagerly await my -1 Troll mods from all those who would rather suppress cognitive dissonance than resolve it.
    2. Re:The right to pirate by inviolet · · Score: 1

      Cool, so if I have the strength to clobber you in a dark alley, and the cunning to get away without being seen, I am clearly just exercising my right to take your wallet! I eagerly await my -1 Troll mods from all those who would rather suppress cognitive dissonance than resolve it.

      The original poster said that rights are yours only insofar as you can fight for them. He did not say that you had the right to do whatever you had the power to fight for. In other words, your exercisable rights are a subset (defined by your fighting ability) of your natural rights. Your natural rights will otherwise get subverted by the nearest thug or politician.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
    3. Re:The right to pirate by brouski · · Score: 1

      That argument still suggests that you have the "natural right" to take someone else's content without their permission, which I don't believe you do.

      --
      Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
    4. Re:The right to pirate by inviolet · · Score: 1

      That argument still suggests that you have the "natural right" to take someone else's content without their permission, which I don't believe you do.

      How does it? As I read it, it simply says "Your effective rights are whatever subset of your natural rights you can defend." It doesn't actually say anything about what your natural rights are.

      In any event, your natural rights couldn't include a right to seize the property of others, because everyone's natural rights must mesh without overlap. In other words, I can't have a right to free speech plus a right to silence you, because then you couldn't have either.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
  24. Already hacked via Xbox 360 add on VID by appleguru · · Score: 5, Informative
    From Engadget:

    In parallel efforts, hackers in both the Xboxhacker and Doom9 forums have exposed the "Volume ID" for discs played on XBOX 360 HD DVD drives. Any inserted disc will play without first authenticating with AACS, even those with Volume IDs which have already been revoked by the AACS LA due to previous hacking efforts. Add the exposed processing keys and you can decrypt and backup your discs for playback on any device of your choosing. Now go ahead AACS LA, revoke the Toshiba-built XBOX 360 HD DVD player... we double-dog dare ya.
    Sources:
    http://www.xboxhacker.net/index.php?topic=6866.0
    http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?&t=124294&pa ge=6
    http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/10/aacs-hacked-to- expose-volume-id-windvd-patch-irrelevant/
    1. Re:Already hacked via Xbox 360 add on VID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow. Cool. This is the first time I'm actually tempted to buy Microsoft's game machine...

    2. Re:Already hacked via Xbox 360 add on VID by Bios_Hakr · · Score: 1

      The 360 should be the easiest keys to revoke. MS can just push an updated set of keys to the players to update them.

      Now the Panasonic/Sony/Kenwood/JVC standalone players are another matter altogether. How do you revoke a key for a device that will have to be returned to BestBuy in order to update it? Maybe they can send the new keys on a DVD that will automagically update the players.

      --
      I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
    3. Re:Already hacked via Xbox 360 add on VID by tomson · · Score: 1

      You don't need the game machine. Just the HD-DVD add on.

      --
      I read slashdot for the articles.
    4. Re:Already hacked via Xbox 360 add on VID by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Said DVD will have to be readable using the old compromised key (for the old readers to read it), and must contain the new not-quite-yet-compromised key (to be able to read new movies).

      Kind of like using the cracked Enigma system to transmit the cypher keys for the next day.

      A DVD-based update will only work if those DVDs are kept inaccessible to anybody with an interest in learning the key. Even if you just distributed them to the local Best Buys they'd get out...

  25. No, no, no. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You're missing the point.

    The benefit of all these cracks isn't to allow people to copy the movies. That ability was never in doubt -- people will always be able to do that. They'll be able to do that regardless of what the content monopolies do, short of just deciding that they won't release movies anymore (which is fine; there's enough of a demand for entertainment that other people will do it -- there's nothing special about making movies that a lot of people can't do, it just takes a lot of money).

    Holding onto a crack until AACS is ubiquitous wouldn't do anything. The ultimate failure of AACS isn't, and never was, in doubt -- all DRM is flawed, and it will eventually be broken.

    The question is whether it's possible to convince both the studios/content-creators, and consumers, of the utter futility of DRM in the first place, so they'll stop trying to do it, and stop wasting everyone's time. DRM is nothing but a broken window: it's millions of man-hours and probably billions of dollars of resources diverted from other, more productive, tasks, both to create it and break it. That's the real cost of DRM.

    So if by releasing cracks for AACS every time they update it, as quickly as possible, it demonstrates to the studios that they're engaging in a war against a guerrilla enemy that they can't possibly defeat, regardless of how much money they spend, perhaps they'll throw in the towel sooner rather than later. It may be a slim chance, but given that Apple has started to see the light, there's some hope.

    That's the real benefit of these cracks. Compared to the economic and social cost of the wasted effort, the ability of people to pirate a few movies pales in comparison.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  26. analogous ? by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 5, Funny
    What they have done is analogous to re-keying a lock that is susceptible to being picked...

    I'm sorry, but this is /. and we only allow automotive analogies here. Please rephrase.

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
    1. Re:analogous ? by MrNaz · · Score: 1

      Just imagine that the lock is on a car.

      --
      I hate printers.
    2. Re:analogous ? by noidentity · · Score: 1

      "What they have done is analogous to re-keying a lock that is susceptible to being picked..."

      I'm sorry, but this is /. and we only allow automotive analogies here. Please rephrase.


      What they have done is analogous to re-keying a car door's lock that is susceptible to being picked...

    3. Re:analogous ? by muellerr1 · · Score: 1

      It's analagous to a car that Chevy will only let you drive around your own city, but then you figure out how to disable the kill switch and drive it wherever you want. Now Chevy has to create a slightly harder-to-find kill switch on its new cars to keep them in their respective cities, so you can drive your car wherever you want but as soon as you try to drive a new car then it will know what you did and refuse to start until you take it to the dealer for a new kill-switch install.

      Crap, but then you could still drive your old car anywhere, and from what I've heard, as soon as you drive the new car then your old car is somehow disabled as well. Honestly, these car analogies are harder than they look.

    4. Re:analogous ? by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

      ... we only allow automotive analogies here. Please rephrase.

      It's analogous to a car designed so that, when you mount the new model tires, the axles break and the wheels fall off. Then you can't drive the car until you install the new "free" axle/wheel set - which is designed to break when the NEXT tire "upgrade" is installed.

      Or a car with an engine control computer designed so that, when you fill the tank with the EPA-mandated "environmentally safe" goofy gas (winter 2007 version), detects the formulation and stops firing the spark plugs - remembering not to fire the plugs even if you pump out all the gas and refill it with old gas from a gas can. Then you can't run it until you install a new firmware module in the engine control computer - which in turn is designed to do the same thing when the summer 2008 gas formulation is detected (and also to keep you from driving more than 55 MPH or more than 10 hours in any week...).

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  27. Bypassing DRM and all copyprotection schemes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't it possible to fool all these HD DVD, DVD, DRM protected media players buy supplying some sort of virtual videodrivers? Or even some lightweight virtual environment the players can run in. You start the player, the player tries to play the HD DVD in maximum resolution, the virtual video driver allows it... but it doesnt show it... just write it to disc. With some sort of virtual machine surrounding the player, it can also adjust the clock/time so that the player won't even notice that it's a time-consuming process? I'm no guru on this, but if something like this is doable it would help how much they change their keys.

    1. Re:Bypassing DRM and all copyprotection schemes by Overzeetop · · Score: 1

      While possible, that's just doing way too much work. By getting the video feed, you're getting the raw stream of bits. While technically useful, it would then have to be captured and stored at extremely high data rates and then recompressed to create the original. It might take 10-15x the running time of the film to get it back into usable form, and then you'd have to deal with transcoding artifacts which effectively degrade the copy. If I want to copy my HD-DVDs onto my HTPC to use it as a jukebox*, I want the original quality I paid for.

      It's much more efficient, and higher quality, to intercept the data before it gets decoded, and it's even more time-efficient to have the keys to decode the stream directly and write it back to disc at the speed limit of the player. Luckily, we have people in the hacker community with nothing better to do than play cat-and-mouse with the DRM houses.

      *for the record I own neither an HD-DVD player nor a HTPC, though I am building the latter to store my 200+ DVDs I currently have in a hardware jukebox for more convenient viewing)

      --
      Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
    2. Re:Bypassing DRM and all copyprotection schemes by tepples · · Score: 1

      Isn't it possible to fool all these HD DVD, DVD, DRM protected media players buy supplying some sort of virtual videodrivers? No. Virtual video drivers will not have been signed by Windows Hardware Quality Labs, and applications are free to treat unsigned drivers as possible virtual video drivers. See Protected Media Path.
  28. CDs aren't a new format! by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Audio CDs were invented in 1983, before many people were computer proficient to make perfect digitial copies of songs. It was only in 1991 or so that digital DRM was invented.
    True Audio CDs have no DRM. New "CDs" that have no DVDs hidden on them should have no DRM, since no one is making pure "CD" DRM anymore. If you buy CDs from non-RIAA labels, you should never run into DRM at all.
    Now, DVDs do have DRM. So the question is, how do we get manufacturers to make Laserdiscs again?

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    1. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good post. Technically, these enhanced CDs do not conform with the redbook standard, and thus cannot be legally called CDs. The average person does not know what redbook is, nor that it is illegal for record labels to label these types of CDs as 'compact discs'. DVD-A has never taken off in Australia, HDCD the same, and SACD has only received a lukewarm welcome.

      I firmly believe that the demise of the Vinyl LP was orchestrated by the recording industry, in order to get consumers used to 'digital technology', and then down the track be able to control what those said consumers can do with things like DRM. I mean, it was impossible for record labels to stop you from copying compact cassettes and LPs, and this is purely because they're analogue in nature. Now that digital has been foistered onto us, we can be controlled. This is what has really led to the DRM explosion.

      Unfortunately, if governments were actually here to protect our, the voters rights and interests, DRM would have been made illegal a long time ago. I most certainly would introduce this law in Australia if I had the senate majority and power, the US be damned.

      You are quite correct in buying CDs from non RIAA labels (there's a website for this, can't remember it). It's a pity that the artists (well some of them are artists lol) have to suffer and have their income deprived. I can't understand why artists don't start pooling their resources together, creating an artist's record label - that is for the artists (and gives back the sales to the artist, less manufacturing costs etc). This is doable, other than with political and financial sabotage by the RIAA happening (and this would be highly visible to any court of law).

      Has anyone ever asked themselves why the RIAA has it's own legislation where it can Ddos/dos suspected pirates Internet connections? If anyone else did this, it's a computer crime. Why is it that the RIAA has it's own legislation marking them as being exempt from US monopoly laws? Why is it that the RIAA has firmly pushed for the extension of copyrights (I can tell you why this is)?

      Why is it that such a high percentage of the population doesn't realise any of this, let alone remotely think about it? A friend once told me that the right to breed should be directly linked to your IQ - in order to keep the species intelligent. I'm finding that I'm starting to agree with him...

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    2. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      DVD-A has never taken off in Australia, HDCD the same, and SACD has only received a lukewarm welcome.


      FWIW, HDCD is just a normal CD where they claim to have done some fancy math to the least significant bits to enhance fidelity. The math is not public knowledge, so we don't really know how much of a difference it makes, but HDCDs can be played back on normal CD players without any voodoo at all, you may even own some HDCDs and not even realize it.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    3. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by fmackay · · Score: 1

      I firmly believe that the demise of the Vinyl LP was orchestrated by the recording industry

      Doubtless.

      in order to get consumers used to 'digital technology', and then down the track be able to control what those said consumers can do with things like DRM

      No. Do you really think the record companies that smart? Have they given any indication of forward thinking like this, ever? LPs were deprecated in favour of CDs because the record companies realised they could resell everyone their record collection, and this would naturally generate insane amounts of profit. The scam was further enhanced by 1)selling at a higher price 2)selling back catalogue, so no production expenses and 3)cheaper production costs (NB probably not the case when CDs were newly introduced).

      If the record companies had displayed any foresight they might have realised that digital media opened up the possibility of perfect copies, but to be fair to them there were at least 10 years between the introduction of CDs and CD writers becoming consumer products. Even if they had thought of this they would likely have been blinded by the massive profits to be made, and have gone ahead anyway.

      No need for conspiracy theories to explain what can be explained by plain old greed.
    4. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      I know what HDCD is, and what can and cannot be done with it - hi fi is an [expensive] hobby of mine. Thanks for posting though, others probably don't know anything about HDCD. HDCD does make a difference, softening the digital gleen (I'm a vinyl fan, 'nuff said) - at least from what I've heard. I don't own a HDCD enabled player, and I definitely don't have any HDCD discs!

      Up until recently, I've relied on a DPA Little Bit II DAC for handling the digital signals (and a Esoteric P-500 CD transport for spinning the discs themselves), but I've just managed ot pick up a 2nd hand DPA PDM 1 Series 3 DAC for a reasonably price, and both DACs well and truly suit my CD playback needs. CD is capable of fine results, given the right gear, and to be honest, it makes formats like HDCD, DVD-A and SACD moot, at least to my eyes. I'm not even considering formats like blue ray etc. If the studios discontinue manufacturing normal DVD videos, or jack the price up, I'll simply just stop buying any of it (and pirate it as a protest).

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    5. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      I do think the record companies are that smart. I do agree with your other points though, well said - they're all spot on. I had this same argument with a friend on Sunday night - why do I have to pay the full price for a CD that I already own the LP for? I mean, I've already paid my royalty costs to use the recording (royalties are based on the recording). The CD is simply the same recording but in a different medium, so shouldn't I just have to pay the manufacturing costs, rather than the whole price again? I wonder why no government has cottoned onto this. Retail outlets initially loved CDs as well, as they were smaller and easier to stock in the same place (thus allowing for a larger retail markup profit).

      I do disagree on the digital being perfect though. Music (and sound) is analogue. That's what nature intended it to be. Digital still doesn't sound completely right, nor natural, at least to my ears. It's amazing at how many people have taken the 'digital is perfect' line hook, line and sinker, but dislike modern moves and their digital SFX, because it looks 'fake'. The problem with LPs was that it took an expensive setup, and quality recordings, on quality virgin vinyl (not the recycled shit that was mainstream by the time of the 80s) in order to sound its best. Most people weren't prepared to spend this sort of money, and CDs are portable, which is admittedly, a major plus. The other thing plus for CDs is ease of use/convenience, mostly cos people are too lazy to get up and change a record over, something that doesn't take an awful lot of time.

      Just call me old fashioned :-)

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    6. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by fmackay · · Score: 1

      I prefer analogue myself - I have at least ten times as many records as I have CDs; by "perfect copy" I meant identical to the original CD. This was a fundamental change, particularly because an nth generation copy is also identical to the original. Add a ubiquitous means of electronic distribution and it's bye-bye business model.

    7. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      Ah good point, I misunderstood you. I don't have ten times as many LPs as CDs, mainly cos I'm youngish (nearly 38) and by the time I started working and had spare money to buy music, LPs were on their way out. What sort of setup do you have (out of curiousity)? I've got a SystemDek IIx + Rega RB300 tonearm + Lyra Clavis cartridge. When I have some spare cash, and I'm lucky enough to find one, I'll hunt down a Pink Triangle Anniversary (also tempted on a Michell Gyrodec unit). The Rega will go for a SME IV tonearm and the cartridge will stay the same.

      Dave

      PS My Nakamichi tape deck (CR-5) makes pretty damn good recordings, not totally perfect, but damn well close!

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    8. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by Legion303 · · Score: 2, Informative

      "You are quite correct in buying CDs from non RIAA labels (there's a website for this, can't remember it)."

      http://www.riaaradar.com/search.asp

    9. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      Good stuff! Thank you!

      Cheers,

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    10. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by AJWM · · Score: 1

      I firmly believe that the demise of the Vinyl LP was orchestrated by the recording industry,

      No, there were just too many advantages in CDs over vinyl LPs: fidelity, scratchproofing, ease of play, etc for the consumer, and size (equals reduced packaging and shipping costs) for the producer (plus getting to sell the inventory over again to those who wanted to upgrade).

      Copying CDs was inconceivable at the time -- first CD-burners weren't available at all, then CD recording gear cost thousands of dollars and the blank media in the range of a hundred bucks a pop (even in the early 90s it was several dollars apiece). Making cassette tape copies of CDs was easy, but we did that from vinyl LPs too.

      --
      -- Alastair
    11. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      I disagree on the fidelity and scratchproofing comments, but agree on everything else. I remember seeing some of the first CD burners way back in 1996 or so - this unit was like 5 grand at the time (I was auditioning my DPA Little Bit II DAC at the time).

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
    12. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by AJWM · · Score: 1

      I disagree on the fidelity and scratchproofing comments

      I suppose fidelity is arguable if you had a high-end system and never played your LPs on anything else. Play one once on a cheapo or portable player (ie, what most teenagers/students had) and the high frequencies start going. (Not to mention wow and rumble from lousy turntables).

      As for scratchproofing -- drop the tonearm, or the LP, or just leave it uncovered on the turntable to collect dust and you start getting noise. Spill beer or soda on one (parties!) and even a good cleaning never quite gets it the same. Believe me, CD's were a vast improvement.

      --
      -- Alastair
    13. Re:CDs aren't a new format! by dpastern · · Score: 1

      Most of the problems with vinyl were due to mass production - this led to cheap 'n' nasty turntables, with the tonearm not having the right downforce, the cartridge being a cheap ceramic cartridge with a huge stylii that damaged the groove. Wow and rumble were directly the cause of again, poor manufacturing, cheap motors, with poor tolerances. You can't blame that on vinyl, that's directly the fault of the cheap manufacturers, and the cheap consumers, pandering to their wallet.

      Drop a CD, spill stuff on it, scratch it. It'll muck up in a lot of cases. Sure, the CRCC error correction does help a fair bit, interpolating the missing music, but still...Cds aren't that more robust than LPs were.

      In the end, turntables are highly mechanical units, and that means precision engineering. CD players are mostly electronics, you can (mostly) get away with shabbgy mechanical parts and manufacturing.

      CDs are cheaper to manufacturer, and to the average person offer better fidelity. Note that I say average person. If you're prepared to spend even a few hundred bucks, you can get a much better sound out of vinyl.

      Dave

      --
      Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. --Martin Luther King Jr.
  29. It's all a big scam by slashdot.org · · Score: 1

    Some of you might remember the DVD-Audio 'hack'. Well guess what? The Intervideo keys got revoked. Then guess what happened?

    That's right, the people that payed Intervideo for their player that was advertised to play DVD-Audio are TOL. Intervideo pulled the functionality out of their new players and the people that had bought the older version are only going to be able to playback DVD-Audio discs that were mastered pre-revoked keys. Unless they upgrade, in which case they can't play any DVD-Audio.

    I'm just saying that software players that play any of the new DRMd media are bound to be 'cracked' and you are bound to be on the short end of the pissing contest, even though you are paying for a product based on functionality that's advertised.

    I can't wait for this to happen to a 'hardware' player that has sold many units. What's needed is a large enough quantity of people being pissed off by paying for something that won't deliver. Unfortunately getting a key out of a hardware device is probably at least one or two orders of magnitude more complicated...

    1. Re:It's all a big scam by appleguru · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately getting a key out of a hardware device is probably at least one or two orders of magnitude more complicated...
      But.. as of today.. it's already done ;) http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/10/aacs-hacked-to- expose-volume-id-windvd-patch-irrelevant/
  30. My fear by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I fear that eventually the content industry will give up on DRM and attack the users more directly. Not that they don't currently, but the investment in DRM can turn into an investment in p2p spying and lawyers. Maybe I'm just uninformed, but the number of legal incidents concerning music sharing seems greater than the number of legal incidents concerning movie sharing. I don't know that the music industry invests in DRM as much as the movie industry either. So while everyone clamors about how it will get hacked again and that the content industry should abandon DRM, I ponder what would really happen if they DID abandon DRM, and what I fear is that all that investment will go into the more direct assaults on users.

  31. Thanks! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    > badvista.org

    That sounds like a fantastic place to receive unbiased, neutral, well-researched information about a Microsoft product. Run by the FSF, no less! WOW!!

    1. Re:Thanks! by howlingmadhowie · · Score: 1

      just because you lie about your perceived opponents doesn't mean that your opponents lie about you.

    2. Re:Thanks! by toleraen · · Score: 1

      Good point...two wrongs always do make a right!

  32. how do you think the new patch adresses the issue? by viking80 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Here is the important question:
    If you were the implementer of AACS on HD player SW, how would you hide the key? I can think of a few ways:
    1. Keep the data in CPU registers and cache.
    2. Split the keys up into smaller pieces, and spread them around when in memory.

    It seems that both is basically security through obscurity, and that has not worked very well in the future.

    If you respond to this with a clever way to do this, make sure you post the reason it will not stand up to hackers as well. Otherwise, keep it to yourself ;)

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  33. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  34. Re:Serious Answer by eclectro · · Score: 1

    Is this making a reference to the current crop of HD's that were purchased? Does the software phone home? Just curious. Any thoughts?

    The MPAA has rented the black helicopters. They're gonna come to your house, smash in your door, and take your HD player.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  35. Hooray! by Philodoxx · · Score: 4, Funny

    DVD Security Group Says It Has Fixed AACS Flaws
    So they've removed it completely?
    --
    Oh, a lesson in history from Mr. I'm my own grandpa.
  36. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by Kymermosst · · Score: 4, Funny

    It seems that both is basically security through obscurity, and that has not worked very well in the future.

    Ahh, I see you have already attended the time travel seminar that will be held in two weeks.

    --
    "Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
  37. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by Toby_Tyke · · Score: 3, Funny

    It seems that both is basically security through obscurity, and that has not worked very well in the future.

    So tell me.. was Duke Nukem Forever worth the wait?

    --
    "I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
  38. I know it's /. , but isn't this story redundant? by Eternal+Vigilance · · Score: 1

    I just read a story on the front page titled "Kremlin Seeks to Control Online Media."

    (And yes, when I say "read" I mean "saw the headline of." I said it's /. )


    HD-DVD porn + Doom9 patch = XXXBOX

  39. Breech or Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am pretty sure the correct word is "breach." Not "breech."

    1. Re:Breech or Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is indeed "breach", and the fact that no one has tagged the story makes you all illiterate peasants.

    2. Re:Breech or Breach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      How dare you call me an illegitimate pheasant!

  40. So I'm not the only one? by drachenstern · · Score: 1

    Good, haven't met anyone who has seen that movie before I turned them to it.

    Wasn't it hella good for being indie? Shame that I hate to talk about it so that others around me don't catch spoilers, but to find out that he had been going around so many times without anybody else knowing . . . took me totally by surprise

    --
    2^3 * 31 * 647
  41. Sisyphus Group says... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it has rolled the boulder up the hill.

  42. So.... by ekran · · Score: 1

    Soo... Basically they haven't learned anything?

    They can hire all the tech-guru-security-experts they want, they still won't me smarter than the collective curiosity of the rest of the world. As such, any implementation of DRM in on a wide scale is futile!

    And the result, well, take itunes for example, where the customers has the choise of either paying for a bad product or go otherwhere and fetch a better one for free...

  43. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by ceroklis · · Score: 2, Informative
    1. If you run the software in a CPU emulator, you can stop at anytime and read the registers. So the distinction between memory and registers is irrelevant.

    2. Hiding the key is easy, but I don't know how useful it really is.

    Here are some ideas on how I would do it:

    1. Instead of calling a standard AES routine that needs the bytes of the key to be in successive memory locations, recode the routine to take bits of the key from different areas of memory.

    2. Suppose (to simplify) that we combine a player key (PK) (that we want to hide) with a disc key (DK)(on the disc) to produce a media key (MK). Then we combine an encrypted sector (ES) with the media key (MK) to produce a decrypted sector (DS). Suppose (for illustration) that keys are 256 bits and blocks 4096 bits long.

    I would follow these steps: write a single function f(DK, ES) = DS in a simple algebraic language. PK exists as constants in the function body. With a preprocessor, convert this function into 4096 boolean functions of 4352 inputs and output C code to compute their minimal disjunctive form. Recovering PK is equivalent to brute-forcing AES.

    Please correct me if I am wrong.

  44. ps3 cell folding pirates by cheekyboy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Someone just has to write a ps3 cell code to do the key guessing just like folding@home, 100,000 pirates, and whammo, it would be cracked really fast , maybe 24hrs. Ironically, that the device player to
    make bluray popular could be used to actually crack the keys the fastest.

    --
    Liberty freedom are no1, not dicks in suits.
    1. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      About what I was thinking...

      Set up a @home application to crack a few of the hardware device codes on the new discs. The PS3 would actually be a bad one to crack; You want a popular machine that's not easy to update.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    2. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Uhh, you do realize that the keys we're talking about, here, even with the most powerful computers in the world working on the problem, would probably require so much time to brute force that the heat death of the universe would arrive first?

    3. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's really important that everyone understand that AACS copy protection cannot be brute forced. They're using AES for the actual encryption - if someone wrote a program that could crack that directly the news would be a lot more significant than "DVD copy protection hacked".

      Given that AES won't be cracked, any attack on AACS copy protection must be a key recovery attack. Luckily, key recovery attacks aren't that hard when you get a key with every player you buy. But... the fact that cracking AES is hard means that reading HD-DVD/BluRay disks may become completely impossible when players are no longer available.

      Hacking something together to read a Beta tape is possible. Annoying. It might cost tens of thousands of dollars to build. But it's possible - it's just analog magnetic patterns on a tape. Reading an HD-DVD without a HD-DVD player won't be possible. That'll be a serious issue for historians in the future, if people don't leave enough pirated DVD-R's around with the unencrypted content on them.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    4. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Magnus+Reftel · · Score: 1

      Someone just has to write a ps3 cell code to do the key guessing just like folding@home, 100,000 pirates, and whammo, it would be cracked really fast

      Nope. Assume that all cores can test one key per clock cycle (implausible, but usefull as a max), and that the clock frequency is 4 GHz. Then one ps3 can exhaust about 36 bits of keyspace per second. A billion ps3s would add another 30 bits. The keyspace that AACS uses for the AES is 128 bits, so the ps3s would need on average 2^61 seconds to brute-force a key. That's slightly more than 73 billion years. Brute force won't do it, hence Muslix' and the other's attempts to find other ways to attack AACS.

      --
      print "Yet another p{erl,ython} hacker\n",
    5. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by User+956 · · Score: 1

      That'll be a serious issue for historians in the future, if people don't leave enough pirated DVD-R's around with the unencrypted content on them.

      That won't be the problem, because plastic disks are a dying product, and selling plastic disks is a dying business. Everything will be stored remotely, in the future.

      Future historians will be reading the contents of a massive datacenter in Missouri, if anything; not an HD-DVD, or a DVD.

      --
      The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
    6. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, they won't need a player, just a player key, from a player that didn't have its key revoked sometime during the production run of the disc they want to watch.

      In any case, do you really think that historians are going to want to recover data from mass-produced consumer discs? You'd think they'd be more interested in the actual source material, not the product.

      Meanwhile, if all you want to know is what movies some former U.S. president liked to watch by digging through his old movie collection, you don't need to be able to play the discs. First, you can just look at the silk screening on the disc itself, and even failing that, you can simply compare it, bit by bit, to the no-doubt bajillion of existing identical copies.

      The only situation where what you says matters is if the data is unique, in which case it's not going to be protected by AACS. And any data protected by strong encryption is hard/impossible to recover if you lose the key, regardless of the medium.

    7. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      Umm, they won't need a player, just a player key, from a player that didn't have its key revoked sometime during the production run of the disc they want to watch.

      True. That'll be really easy in the near future. Then it will degrade to wildly aggravating. Then, at some point after that, it will become nigh on impossible.

      In any case, do you really think that historians are going to want to recover data from mass-produced consumer discs? You'd think they'd be more interested in the actual source material, not the product.

      Sure, but that won't always be available. I think that at least one "mass produced consumer disk" has a much higher chance of surviving intact for any given amount of time than unique masters / source material.

      The only situation where what you says matters is if the data is unique, in which case it's not going to be protected by AACS. And any data protected by strong encryption is hard/impossible to recover if you lose the key, regardless of the medium.

      Find me a copy of Euclid's "Conics". It wasn't written that long ago, and quite a few copies were made. Today the work has been completely lost, but if any one of the copies that were made were to be found - even severely damaged - we'd have most of the content of the book pretty easy. Even if the ink was faded on every page.

      A copy of some bit of data should be usable. The fact that the most widely distributed "popular literature" of today is explicitly made worthless for anyone who doesn't have a specific piece of complex (and tamper resistant) electronics specifically designed to make the data harder to access is absurd.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    8. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      That won't be the problem, because plastic disks are a dying product, and selling plastic disks is a dying business. Everything will be stored remotely, in the future.

      Selling plastic disks with movies on them for 1000x the cost to manufacture probably is an obsolete business model. On the other hand, I don't think that physical media for personal use (i.e. DVD+R's) are going anywhere anytime soon. We can start arguing about the cost/benifit tradeoff of storing my data at a remote datacenter the minute I have a 100+ meg upstream from my house to this datacenter.

      Future historians will be reading the contents of a massive datacenter in Missouri, if anything; not an HD-DVD, or a DVD.

      I'm sure that that's what the people who set up the Library of Alexandria thought about their project too. Centralized data storage is a bad plan - unless there's a really good decentralized backup system in place.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    9. Re:ps3 cell folding pirates by User+956 · · Score: 1

      Selling plastic disks with movies on them for 1000x the cost to manufacture probably is an obsolete business model. On the other hand, I don't think that physical media for personal use (i.e. DVD+R's) are going anywhere anytime soon.

      Sure, but those aren't encrypted to prevent access to the data, as we were talking about. Do you protect your home-burned DVD backups with CSS or AACS?

      --
      The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
  45. Subject by Legion303 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Ayers said future assaults by hackers can be similarly fixed by replacing compromised keys with new ones."

    They're going to have to institute an MS-like "patch Tuesday" to issue new keys.

    On the down side, I'm going to have to wait until the weekend before the HDDVD hackers break the new scheme and resume their regular distribution schedule. :(

  46. Something I don't understand.... by Churla · · Score: 1

    IIRC the AACS scheme works a lot like a certificate authority. What they are doing is that on new discs they will add the old InterVideo key to the revocation list. Then compliant players will read and obey the revocation list and not play if their key show up on the list.

    Wouldn't the far superior hack then be to hack the player program/firmware in such a way that it simply disregards the KRL?

    Could someone with more AACS-fu then I please enlighten me on that one?

    --
    I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
    1. Re:Something I don't understand.... by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      Not quite. Think of it as an encryption algorithm like PGP, in which data can be encrypted with multiple public keys, then decrypted by any one of the corresponding private keys. If the HDDVD data on a new disc is not encrypted with a key that has been revoked, it obviously can't be decrypted by that key. That's my understanding of it, anyway.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    2. Re:Something I don't understand.... by Churla · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought that too, but then the back of my brain asked "Well, if they encrypt it to be decrypted by all known good keys that means a disc made at one point in time wouldn't be able to support a key issued to a new player manufacturer later."

      That led me to think they had to use a revocation list scheme like CA's use. Because without it if , say, Bob's electronics decide to manufacture it's own drive then any HD content made BEFORE it was issued it's key wouldn't play on it. That would be a HUGE barrier to entry into the market.

      --
      I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
    3. Re:Something I don't understand.... by Nasarius · · Score: 1

      Someone else mentioned that current discs include many keys that haven't yet been issued. It's actually pretty well-thought-out for a DRM scheme.

      --
      LOAD "SIG",8,1
    4. Re:Something I don't understand.... by Grishnakh · · Score: 1

      Yes, that'd be a technically superior hack.

      However, what I'd rather see is lots more hacks like the last one, which causes keys to be revoked. Each hack like this would further annoy regular users, and eventually they'd run out of keys (I guess, my understanding of this DRM scheme isn't very good either) and be faced with either dumping AACS altogether or disabling all existing players, which would royally piss off everyone.

    5. Re:Something I don't understand.... by andy_t_roo · · Score: 1

      actually the default position is that every key can play, AACS is just a nifty way of removing a large number of keys from the "allowed to play" list w/o having to list every single allowed key separately.

  47. HD DVD requires network connection by Fezmid · · Score: 1

    Actually, all HD DVD players are required by the spec to have an ethernet port. Therefore, you won't need a PC to download the latest firmware for the player.

    BD doesn't have the requirement, although I believe they're starting to require it now. No idea what that does for the current crop of players though...

    1. Re:HD DVD requires network connection by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      And why would someone without a computer have internet?

      Nothing I buy, other than a computer will *EVER* be plugged into the net.

    2. Re:HD DVD requires network connection by grub · · Score: 1


      Actually, all HD DVD players are required by the spec to have an ethernet port. Therefore, you won't need a PC to download the latest firmware for the player.

      If your house doesn't have a PC what are the odds it will have an ethernet or internet connection for the updates?

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    3. Re:HD DVD requires network connection by Fezmid · · Score: 1

      Point taken. However, I was referring more to the grandparent's post, where he said:

      "Christ, It's not entirely difficult for someone that isn't phased by technology, but I know if I've kicked on my couch on a friday night with a beer, the last bloody thing I want to be doing is getting up, searching for my model of "insert new format player here" downloading the firmware, burning it to a disc, updating it, just to watch a movie I bought/rented."

    4. Re:HD DVD requires network connection by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't have a computer, what is the likelihood that you have a working internet connection ? And it's not like your local library or internet café is gonna love the idea of you unhooking their equipment and inserting your personal hardware on their hookup.

  48. Dear DVD Security Group... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Encryption is not designed to keep a piece of data hidden from prying eyes forever.

    Instead, it's about hiding data in such a way that it would take so much time and so much computer resource to break the encryption code to the point where it becomes impractical to even try doing it in the first place. In practical terms, for a specific encryption algorythm, it might, for example, be estimated that it would take 1 man on 1 PC up to 8000 years of continual effort to break a particular encryption algorithm.

    However, get 2 men on 2 PCs working together, it'll take up to 4000 years to break it.

    4 men on 4 PCs will take about 2000 years to break it.

    etc.

    Based on that assumption, I give your encryption keys 1 year at the most.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:Dear DVD Security Group... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ....
      However, get 2 men on 2 PCs working together, it'll take up to 4000 years to break it.

      4 men on 4 PCs will take about 2000 years to break it. ....


      Hmmm. I wonder if the crackers have worked out how useful all those bot-nets could be? Move aside SETI@home!

      (well.... it would be nice to think they were hacking my PC for something useful rather than just to send spam ;-))

  49. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by TheCoop1984 · · Score: 1

    please, please, please, don't join the AACS group...

    --
    95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
  50. Dongle as coprocessor by tepples · · Score: 1

    bypassing hardware dongles requires that you reverse engineer the driver to the dongle Unless the dongle is being used as a coprocessor, right? I seem to remember reading comment in a recent Slashdot story about a Chinese Pinyin input method editor that did just that.
  51. Reading between the lines of this press release: by JRHelgeson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We have fixed the problem this time.

    No, seriously, we did... Really.

    So, unless some miscreant goes out and breaks something, yes, it is fixed.

    Hackers of the world: It ain't broke, so please don't be taking it apart to find out why. Please! The fact that you can't watch movies you paid for on the equipment you own is a design feature. Please don't meddle with it, it will only make more work for us.

    {We have just raised the bar and thrown down the gauntlet, so: On your mark, get set, GO!}

    --
    Good security is based upon reality and common sense. Common sense is a function of having common knowledge.
  52. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by ceroklis · · Score: 1

    I'd like to elaborate on point 2. Being able to extract the key is not that important. If you can extract the key, you can use it as input in your stock implementation of the decryption algorithm. But if the decryption module is so obfuscated that you cannot find the key (I gave an example on how to do just that), you can just do what keygen authors do: take the whole decryption module and reproduce it in your code, even if you don't really understand what it does. That's why, as the parent pointed out, obfuscation simply doesn't work.

    Of course this will be moot when Trusted Computing will be used. Because then, the combination of your custom code and the decryption module that you stole from the player won't be signed, and thus won't be authorized to read the disk or use the display (at full resolution).

  53. HAHA by panxerox · · Score: 1

    Neener Neener Screener Screener

    Chuckleheads.

    --
    "It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
  54. Professional Pirates... by Firethorn · · Score: 1

    The really professional pirates have access to the same mastering facilities that the legit companies do.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  55. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by noidentity · · Score: 1

    "It seems that both is basically security through obscurity, and that has not worked very well in the future."

    So tell me.. was Duke Nukem Forever worth the wait?


    I don't think their time travel device can go that far into the future yet.

  56. torn to shreds by twitter · · Score: 1

    Read the comments for the article you linked to. The author gets torn to shreds by people with actual knowledge of Vista.

    Way to miss the point, M$ defender Macthrope. You can keep Vista and all of it's restrictions but no one else is going to want them and their sales are going to go the same place the major music publisher's sales have gone. There, people continue to purchase CDs and avoid DRM'd content. When they sabotaged CDs too, they really screwed up. Their sales have been falling by 20% a year for years.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:torn to shreds by brouski · · Score: 1
      You really think average consumers give a flying crap about Vista DRM, or even know what DRM means?

      Come down off the ivory "MS is crap" tower, and stroll through a fucking Best Buy once in a while.

      --
      Proud member of the American Non Sequitur Society. We might not make much sense, but boy do we love pizza!
    2. Re:torn to shreds by dedazo · · Score: 1

      but no one else is going to want them and their sales

      Repeating that constantly is not going to warp reality, you know. And besides, you conveniently ignored his point, which is that your non sequitur about how TEH BADD Vista is was offtopic and irrelevant. You don't have a reading comprehension, so you're obviously waffling on purpose.

      Their sales have been falling by 20% a year for years.

      ROFL! Of course they've fallen as the markets saturate, but "20%"? Per year? Please. What's the point of all this FUD anyway? Who do you think you're convincing?

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    3. Re:torn to shreds by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      I think you're confused about who he was referring to with that 20% comment. There was a article a little while back where the RIAA was whining that CD sales were down 20% from the previous year. I think that's the figure he was referring to. As to how bad or good Vista is, I won't get into that other than to say Vista for the average user dosn't really offer any major improvements over XP, and requires a great deal in terms of hardware specs, so for the average user. They'll get Vista when they buy a new system, but despite Microsofts wishes nobody is going to be rushing out to purchase a shiny new copy of Vista just because it's the latest steaming pile to come forth from MS.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    4. Re:torn to shreds by dedazo · · Score: 1

      I think that's the figure he was referring to.

      Oh, I see. I didn't realize he was talking about CD sales.

      Vista for the average user dosn't really offer any major improvements over XP

      No, of course not. It's 2001 all over again, Microsoft is going down, XP is no better than 2000, etc. And before that, 2000 is no better than 98, nobody will use it, requires too much hardware, etc. Ad nauseaum.

      the latest steaming pile

      Wow, you're so cool.

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    5. Re:torn to shreds by orclevegam · · Score: 1

      I never claimed MS was going down. I may wish that to happen, but I'm a realist, and I don't see Windows dying in this latest revision. They will most likely lose a good bit of market share initially to Apple and Linux (for those taking this opportunity to test the "alternative"), but a good percentage of those will come slinking back to Windows when the latest wiz-bang DX 10 game comes out. In the long run, MS will lose a small percentage of sales to both Apple and Linux, but Vista will not sink them. That being said, I don't think we'll see a large scale adoption of Vista till SP1 at least, and probably not a really robust (relativly) solution till SP2. One can hope of course that in a few more years when the next version of Windows is released that perhaps Linux, or maybe even an OS that hasn't been created yet will have enough of a compeling feature set to finally push Windows off the desktop market.

      --
      Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
    6. Re:torn to shreds by dedazo · · Score: 1
      The first part is a plausible theory. The "push Windows out of the desktop market" will very probably require a complete redefinition of what the "desktop" is, and Microsoft dropping the ball on that like they initially did in the Win95 timeframe and the Internet. I suppose that's a possibility as well, but we're talking quite a few years between now and then, I think.

      Well, I'm sure we'll eventually get the memo on how it turns out =)

      --
      Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    7. Re:torn to shreds by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      Can you point out where Microsoft sabotaged CDs?

      Thanks.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
    8. Re:torn to shreds by Macthorpe · · Score: 1

      Checking the comments, apparently I was supposed to detect that you'd switched to talking about music companies from Microsoft. Fine, I guess. I'm so used to making up whatever you feel like about Microsoft I must have missed it.

      Apparently, then, the point I'm supposed to get is that the content that music and movie companies create with DRM will only run in Vista if that DRM is enabled - and thus Microsoft is going down because music and movie companies still demand DRM.

      It made even less sense the second time around.

      --
      "It does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations, if you live near him." - Tolkien
  57. You misunderstand the market by BLKMGK · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, I used to think that ripping DVD was for folks who knew computers and were geeks. That was until I worked on a few barely computer literate people's computers and found ripping software! It gets better, while my SO was buying a DVD she'd found cheap at a grocery store the clerk running the checkout starts to tell her all about how to rent and RIP DVDs - then goes so far as to tell her it's perfectly legal! He even told her what software to use - she was pretty amused and just nodded while he went on and on about it. My point is - the folks who don't live computers are doing this in amazing numbers.

    Now we're talking High Def DVD and people still want that content. They have just forced a bunch of folks to patch their software. Meanwhile the guys on the Doom9 forums have hacked the HD DVD firmware for the XBOX 360 such that it ignores half the scheme and coughs up the Volume keys. http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=124294 Whoops. People will soon be flashing their drives to decrypt the media all over again. What are they going to do, revoke drives in mass? Do they think this SAME thing won't be done to Blu Ray and other hardware? The last time around they even shared keys between Blu Ray and HD DVD pressings, talk about one key to rule them all! Slysoft even released a commercial product to rip the new media...

    So what do they think will happen with HD content that's ANY different than with standard DVDs? If someone can hack existing firmware to avoid these keys then what stops an offshore manufacturer from simply producing such a drive? You might have to hit a few buttons on the remote to activate it but you can bet it will happen. the biggest thing slowing it down right now i shear size of the content - 20Gigs and an hour's worth of time to rip it is going to put off a few folks I'll bet. Where are those 1TB drives being released again? :-)

    The consumers will speak - this sucker is toast. It won't be long before simply buying a fake on a streetcorner or downloading from a torrent is FAR less trouble than buying the real thing.

    --
    Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
  58. MTBF by tacokill · · Score: 2, Funny

    The expensive DVD player from Sony now sits in the kitchen and occasionally plays a normal music CD, when there is nothing in the FM worth listening to.

    So, runnning 24/7/365, how long does a Sony DVD player work?

    1. Re:MTBF by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Where's the mod for +1 Pointless Jab at FM?

    2. Re:MTBF by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      For about a week and a half.

    3. Re:MTBF by tacokill · · Score: 1

      Pointless would be me screaming about how tall their towers are and basing my hatred of FM Radio on that criteria.

      No, my joke wasn't pointless. In fact, its right on point. FM Radio listener numbers back me up on this one.

  59. hardware player revoking is unlikey as the retail. by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    retail stores like best buy, circuit city, walmart, and others their huge weight against havening to deal with returns, pissed off customers and so on.
    And havering a no return policy will not cut when people say I just payed for this and it does not work, I have to pay for the internet just to see a movie, It does not work with dial up internet, I can't get high speed internet so this HD-DVD / Blue-Ray player is useless to me, and so on, I tried to do a firmware update and it failed and now the player does not work at all,
    The player says I need a tv with HDMI / HDCP 1.3 and I just got a new HD tv not that long ago, What is a firmware update? The people at walmart likely will have no clue about that one.

  60. Boycott not possible by robogun · · Score: 1

    Simply stated, the music industry derives income from royalty. As licensing is hooked deeply into all media and marketing, it is impossible to participate in today's ecomony without some of your money going to the music industry.

    Stopping CD purchases will not put them out of business. You'd have to stop buying ANYTHING advertised on radio. You could never spend money in a store that plays music. You could never eat in a restaurant that has music playing in the background. You can never go to any nightclub -- you might be able to justify going when an unsigned live band plays original tunes, but the club itself still has an ASCAP license to finance. You couldn't use a VISA or Mastercard, or any service that advertises. In fact, you'd have to drop out completely to perform the boycott.

    I doubt slowing CD and DVD sales put a major dent in their income. It's just that they fear losing control, for the loss of the retail segment demonstrates people are realizing how badly overpriced music is, and the licensees might be the next to realize this. And that would be the end of one of the most lucrative easy-money gravy trains in history.

  61. hhmmm by Vexorian · · Score: 1

    New high-def DVDs will include updated keys and instructions for older versions of the PC-playback software not to play discs until the software patch has been installed.
    Couldn't this whole "playable data now issues orders to the player" stuff be exploited by a hacker in order to render people's players obsolete for no reason?.

    Nevermind, we all know the answer already.
    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  62. if you can view it, you can copy it by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    That is true, until they finally close the "analog" hole and encrypt ALL traffic in and out of your computer to ALL devices. ( yes, that is decades out, but dont doubt they are not slowly heading that way, step by step )

    Then only custom hardare ( which most people could never come up with ) could decrypt then something.. But then it would not have the proper encryption and would not play anyway.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  63. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by russotto · · Score: 1

    I've seen something similar to your method used; generated code which ran the steps of decryption for a particular key, rather than using a decryption key which accepted a key.

    I scratched my head a while trying to recover the key. Then I thought about writing an emulator to run the function. Then I realized the obvious: I had the function right there. I didn't need to recover the key, or emulate the function. I merely needed to call it and the magic black box would do the decryption for me. Problem solved.

    Same with your system. If the Player Key is hidden as code, the cracker extracts the code and uses it directly to decrypt the sectors (or, more likely, an intermediate key).

  64. Network connection requires Internet subscription by tepples · · Score: 1

    Actually, all HD DVD players are required by the spec to have an ethernet port. Oh great. Now you have to subscribe to the minimum commitment of 12 months of high-speed Internet access at $35 per month just to un-revoke your player. By the time key revocation becomes commonplace as the crackers step up their efforts, players will become disposable.
  65. How to disclose 100,000 disc keys by tepples · · Score: 1

    If "Compromise the same way" means instructions which involve taking the cover off, soldering a line onto a JTAG port and running a serial port to it, I really don't think that kind of compromise is going to be used by many people. I would give a lowball estimate that there are at least a hundred pirates in the moviez scene who know how to solder. If each of these mods only 20 disc players for others in the scene, and each player reveals only 50 disc keys before it is revoked, that's 100,000 disc keys disclosed to the public. How many new movies will MPAA studios and Lionsgate release over the 10-year expected lifetime of the HD video formats?
    1. Re:How to disclose 100,000 disc keys by jimicus · · Score: 1

      True, but there's always the possibility that discs will be re-run with different keys.

      The thing to bear in mind is that object of the exercise isn't to make copying the media impossible. Contrary to popular /. belief, even the MP/RIAA know that such an aim is fruitless.

      The object of the exercise is to make producing and distributing half-decent copies sufficiently difficult as to put off all but the most determined geeks. Much like it was before MP3 became commonplace.

      The problem they're facing is that they're trying to do this in software. In the past the problems which made widespread production and distribution of pirated copies difficult were hardware based (it used to be very expensive to buy CD duplicating equipment and MP3, DivX and broadband hadn't had the same impact as they have today).

      Unlike with hardware, the barrier to entry with software-based problems is no more than "enough time". And history has shown that there are more than enough software geeks with enough time.

      I imagine sooner or later, they simply won't license software HD-DVD playback (or whatever the next technology is) for general-purpose computers. Don't for one minute imagine this means the end of the computer, however. Just that general-purpose computers as we know them will cease to exist. Hello, trusted computing.

  66. Seriously?!?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wanted to like Primer, and from the description it sounded pretty good. While there were a few nice things about it, I was bored out of my mind for a lot of the movie. I don't need a lot of whiz-bang effects or top-billed actors, but I do need to be able to stay awake!

  67. Re:how do you think the new patch adresses the iss by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

    1. Keep the data in CPU registers and cache.
    2. Split the keys up into smaller pieces, and spread them around when in memory.


    1. Impossible, without incredibly slow decryption. The x86_64 chips *might* have enough registers to do AES with lots of extra computation, but all the fast (e.g. more than 1MB/sec) algorithms use a large key schedule that is directly derived from the key. Heck, with some SSE hacks it might even be possible for generic x86_32 processors to keep the key in registers. Additionally, it would be apparent that the key is being stored in the registers because it could not be disguised very easily.

    2. Slightly more doable, by moving and "disguising" (probably XORing with constants) the key schedule it could be forced to never exist entirely as plaintext in memory, so the crackers would have to do a little bit of time analysis to figure out when to grab parts of the key schedule. It's still going to be incredibly difficult because every 16 byte block of ciphertext requires every byte of key schedule to decrypt it. Given the massive amount of data streaming from the disc, the player is going to sit in two main areas: AES decryption and MPEG decoding. MPEG decoding takes up the majority of the time, but AES will be a very noticeable percentage, and probably easy to identify because of the table lookups that are necessary. After the code is identified, it's obvious how to get the original key back, because it forms the first 16 bytes of the key schedule.

    An interesting solution would be to find a mathematically equivalent algorithm for AES that uses different lookup table constants and a different key schedule. It would probably not be very hard to do, maybe requiring an extra prestage and afterstage to put things right. That could take a little while to figure out, but again because of the time spent decrypting it would probably be relatively obvious where the code was, and when it didn't look like AES the hackers would know to look for the fudging to figure out how to reverse it. It might just take a hacker who's good at linear algebra.

    The real solution the media companies are aiming for is to skip the software players and have the video card act as a secure player, handling the AES and MPEG in hardware and using HDCP to talk directly to a "secure" monitor. That will basically close the digital hole, because the only place to get the plaintext signal would be at the interface cable going into the LCD panel. If they can get the drive to talk directly to the video card for key exchange, that cuts the main PC out of the loop entirely, meaning that special hardware would be required just to read the data off the disc.

  68. No general purpose computer, no GPLv3 software. by tepples · · Score: 1

    I imagine sooner or later, they simply won't license software HD-DVD playback (or whatever the next technology is) for general-purpose computers. Don't for one minute imagine this means the end of the computer, however. Just that general-purpose computers as we know them will cease to exist. Hello, trusted computing.

    But there will have to be a way for Treacherous Computing hardware to be converted into a general-purpose computer, or it will not be able to run the latest GNU system after FSF starts distributing new versions of GNU under the GPLv3 family of licenses. There's still a strong demand for at least server hardware that runs a GNU user space and/or other GPL and LGPL covered software.

  69. Re:SONY Dreamworks Viacom Columbia Pictures by Technician · · Score: 1

    Viacom owns Dreamworks. Not Sony.

    Maybe I have a pirated copy then.. ;-) I have the box in my hand right now. I wish I could scan the back and post the logos..

    Lower left corner on the back.. COLUMBIA PICTURES

    Lower right corner on the back.. SONY PICTURES Home Entertainment

    Just left of the SONY PICTURES.. www.SonyPictures.com

    Following the link..
    http://www.sonypictures.com/ Open Season is right on the main page "OPEN SEASON
    Go wild with official mobile downloads from the animated tale."

    Viacom may own it, but it's SONY who is distributing it. I blame them for the defective by design distribution.

    --
    The truth shall set you free!
  70. Re:SONY Dreamworks Viacom Columbia Pictures by nuzak · · Score: 1

    Ah, you're right ... Dreamworks doesn't do everything in-house, especially Dreamworks Animation.

    And Sony is of course is the biggest force behind AACS and all things DRM-related.

    --
    Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
  71. Off by orders of magnitude by tepples · · Score: 1

    In practical terms, for a specific encryption algorythm, it might, for example, be estimated that it would take 1 man on 1 PC up to 8000 years of continual effort to break a particular encryption algorithm. And then you go on to explain the implications of the embarrassing parallelism of cipher brute-forcing. What you say is true but irrelevant because for the crypto used in AACS, your estimate of the time to exhaust the keyspace is off by several orders of magnitude. A 64-bit key took nearly five years for all the members of distributed.net to crack (see Project RC5). Distributed.net is now working on brute-forcing a 72-bit key, but its estimated 7,000 active participants have cleared only 0.4% of the keyspace after over four years (see RC5-72 Overall Project Stats). Keys used in AACS are 128-bit, for a key space 70 quadrillion times bigger than a 72-bit key.
  72. how many blacklisted keys can fit on the disc? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At what point does blacklisting so many keys on the disc take up too much space??

    1. Re:how many blacklisted keys can fit on the disc? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 1

      The smaller of the two, HD-DVD, has 15gb of space on a single-layer single-sided disc. Invalidating a key likely takes very little space - I'm betting under 1k. Even assuming it's 1k, invalidating a million keys would use a mere 1gb of space.

      Essentially, it's not much of an issue. If they have to invalidate a million keys they're screwed anyway.

      I mean, even if they don't they're screwed anyway, but at that point at least they ought to realize it.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.