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What is Open Source Hardware?

ptorrone writes "In their piece 'What is open source hardware?', MAKE magazine divides up electronic hardware into layers, each of which has different document types and licensing concerns: Hardware (mechanical) diagrams, schematics & circuit diagrams, layout diagrams, core/firmware, software/API — each layer has an example provided and links to many of the open source hardware projects currently being worked on."

143 comments

  1. In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystems by CoreTech · · Score: 5, Informative

    OpenSPARC is available from Sun Microsystems. The SPARC architecture is still highly relevant. Open source hardware projects like this are worth noting.

  2. Free Telephony Project by mo · · Score: 5, Informative

    One very interesting example of open-source hardware is the Free Telephony Project.
    David Rowe, the author has almost single-handedly designed an embedded computer using a blackfin processor combined with FXO/FXS (PSTN lines) chips to produce an extremely low-cost PBX running uclinux and asterisk. Recent posts indicate he's also close to producing a T1 interface as well. The amazing thing about this project is how open it all is. The cirucuit design, and layout for all of the boards are open. Also, he's committed to using only open-source software to do the design (and contributed a number of enhancements back to these projects, such as pcb). Not to mention also developing the uclinux based distribution, astfin, as well as a number of custom modifications to asterisk itself to use some of the Blackfin's special DSP capabilities.

    1. Re:Free Telephony Project by flydpnkrtn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's good stuff... last week I was in an "Advanced VOIP" class the Army put us in (I'm active duty unfotunately), and as different concepts were gone over I kept thinking about "how proprietary all this is." Open hardware is a great concept... I'd love to not be under the same lock-in as users of that OS are.

      Anyways so basically: The proprietary Cisco CallManager talks to the Cisco router's proprietary T1 controller card, via a proprietary protocol (MGCP), and the VoIP calls to the POTS phone are done via SCCP (which is... you guessed it! proprietary). You get the idea.

      I asked the instructor if he'd ever looked at Asterisk as an alternative PBX, and he'd never even heard of the thing. I then asked what Cisco CallManager 5 would be running on (knowing it was Linux), and he replied "RedHat."

      Just goes to show you the thinking I guess...

    2. Re:Free Telephony Project by drowe67 · · Score: 1

      Hi, it's David here - I run the Free Telephony Project site.

      Thanks for the kind words mo. I would just like to clarify that it hasn't been just me alone - for example I am just a specator for the T1/E1 project & astfin projects, preferring to concentrate on the low level hardware/driver work. FYI I am also working on an open source line echo canceller (oslec) - something the telephony world really seems to need.

      Thanks,

      David

  3. Possibly, in a glorious future by smittyoneeach · · Score: 5, Interesting

    You have a fab that can crank out a motherboard to order. A web page lets you pick the features you want, and then it arrives via overnight shipping.
    If you care to sell your soul for rock 'n' roll, you can opt for the various DRM choices.
    Maybe it arrives as a bag of chips, and you solder it yourself.
    Interesting posibilities.

    --
    Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    1. Re:Possibly, in a glorious future by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2

      In a way, you can have custom hardware circuit boards made, very much in the manner that you describe, except that you have to design the circuit. Maybe not over night, but less than a week. You could probably have a reference board made. How computer board makers make their variations is by including or not including parts based on the order.

      Making custom versions of what's being mass produced in the millions is usually not advised unless you have a very good reason to do so, for high value, specialized tasks.

      Soldering ball grid array parts is big pain though.

    2. Re:Possibly, in a glorious future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) most people would not be able to solder a chip with a .3mm pin .3 mm space.
      b) proto pcb are quite cheap and are easly available (I use seria proto, 3 boards any size $35 per board)

    3. Re:Possibly, in a glorious future by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 1
      a) most people would not be able to solder a chip with a .3mm pin .3 mm space.

      You know, one of the other electronics guys at work here insists on using 0201 components to save space - but no one can solder the damn things! 0402 (.5 mm pad) just about anyone can do, if you use two soldering irons.

      --
      It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
    4. Re:Possibly, in a glorious future by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      Clearly the marketing packages stuff in such a way that mortals can do it without cleanrooms and such.

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  4. hmm... by CalSolt · · Score: 1

    hmm... now about that open source laser lithography machine...

    1. Re:hmm... by zCyl · · Score: 1

      hmm... now about that open source laser lithography machine...

      Getting it to compile on your platform is the real trick.
  5. Brilliant name by matt+me · · Score: 3, Funny

    the open source Roland 303 MIDI synth clone, the x0xb0x. :]
  6. Still Waiting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm still waiting for McDonalds to open the source code to their "special" sauce.

    1. Re:Still Waiting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'll give you a hint: animal semen.

    2. Re:Still Waiting by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

      Ketchup and thousand island dressing.

    3. Re:Still Waiting by jshriverWVU · · Score: 1

      Thousand Island dressing.

  7. Wrong Preferred Document Formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The preferred document formats don't make sense. Distributing a schematic diagram as an image (pdf, png, etc.) is like distributing a program as an object file. In both cases modifying the item is nearly impossible. Schematic diagrams should be distributed in a format which a schematic editor, such as geda, can read. This is the electronic equivalent of source code. The same thing goes for printed circuit board layouts: just the image is not sufficient.

    1. Re:Wrong Preferred Document Formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      k, then you should do it.

    2. Re:Wrong Preferred Document Formats by ptorrone · · Score: 1

      it's a start, it's hard to really force people not to use PDFs, since it's a schematic that can be reproduced fairly easily since it's a picture with nothing "hidden" it's not the end of the world. for PCBs, .brd files are one of the formats used or images - not ideal yet (see the caveats in the article) but a start...

    3. Re:Wrong Preferred Document Formats by AndreyFilippov · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Unfortunately it is yet difficult to design hardware using only the GPL-ed software. Sometimes - even running of GPL-ed OS - until recently fro FPGA design I had to use Xilinx software on other OS - Linux version was much worse (I had frequently ssh to my computer after it stopped to respond to any keypresses). Now it is better, and I do not need that OS for this job anymore. But for PCB design I still need a combination of the proprietary OS with proprietary EDA software - even if I would pay at least twice more for the free software if it could do the job with the same convenience.

      So we too provide hardware documentation as pdf files. Actually, each of our hardware products has tarball with all the source code (software and FPGA) sufficient (combined with other free software available) to regenerate the bootable firmware (original or modified) inside the flash image itself.

      I would not agree that pdf is like binary - it is more like printed source code that you still can use to build the code if you type good enough :-)

    4. Re:Wrong Preferred Document Formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Schematic diagrams should be distributed in a format which a schematic editor, such as geda, can read.

      Speaking of Wrong Preferred Document Formats...

      "There is no supported Windows version " [of gEDA].

  8. In theory ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    there's no limit to what you can open source. At some point, it ceases to be worthwhile. For instance, I could build the occasional part for my hot rod. In theory there's nothing to stop me from digging and smelting my own ore and really building a car from scratch. Obviously it isn't going to happen though. There are practical limits on what it's worthwhile to open source. Yes you can open source any design but if nobody builds that design then, what's the point?

    1. Re:In theory ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you are missing the point of what open source is. Open source is about the work you do benefiting others in return for their future and past work benefiting you. What you described was DIY (Do It Yourself).

      The point of open sourcing 'any' design is that while it may never be built others are free to create derivative works and learn from your achievements or mistakes.

      You brought up car parts. Plenty of people have tinkered with their cars and come up with alternative designs for various parts. Probably if you look hard enough there's someone that's replaced that part of the car with something they designed and built themselves. Most of those people are hobbyists that didn't consider releasing their designs to the public, but there's no reason they couldn't or that doing so would not be beneficial.

      Just to recap, if Open Source was what you described then no one would use linux. They would all have written their own kernel, their own drivers, build their own processors, their own RAM, etc. One of the major principles behind Open Source is not to do redundant work. If there's something out there and it's 100% of what I need, why not use it? If it's 60% of what I need, why not modify it and then use it?

    2. Re:In theory ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Open source" is not a verb!

    3. Re:In theory ... by amolapacificapaloma · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think the point is that maybe someday you might only be able to
      buy sophisticated electronic products which are full of DRM or any
      other crap (rootkits, etc) and if by that day there is no open
      source alternative (that meaning open documentation and the likes)
      with at least the most important features and no patent problems,
      nobody is going to be able to start from the scratch such a big project.
      And that would suck big time.

      --
      exp(i*pi)+1=0
    4. Re:In theory ... by Chandon+Seldon · · Score: 1

      That really depends on how cheap fabrication gear is.

      If you could "design" a car out of open source CAD files, and then send the resulting file down to the local mechanic for component fabrication on a $100,000 fabricator (maybe it carves the pieces out of metal with a laser, whatever) - then building your own car would turn into a similarly complex project to building a nice RC car kit.

      The real problem is that actually having a new engine design built is damn expensive - fabrication requires a bunch of experts and a machine shop.

      --
      -- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
    5. Re:In theory ... by heinousjay · · Score: 1

      I think you've idealized the point. Open source means free. Everything else is just a motivation to get people to work without being paid while the work itself is systematically devalued.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    6. Re:In theory ... by shaitand · · Score: 1

      Language is defined by usage, not by reference. Open source has been used as a verb longer than google and Oxford has already recognized google.

    7. Re:In theory ... by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      'Open source means free. Everything else is just a motivation to get people to work without being paid while the work itself is systematically devalued.'

      Open source does not mean free as in beer. Its about freedom to use, modify, and distribute.

    8. Re:In theory ... by salec · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up!

  9. Another site (mostly RTL level) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    http://www.opencores.org/ has quite a few hardware designs (mostly RTL) ranging from cryptographic engines to complete processors. They were also instrumental in developing Wishbone, a completely open SOC bus architecture, akin to something like ARM's AMBA. IIRC you can also buy a pack of cd's which contain open-source or free-of-charge EDA software.

    I'm not sure if anybody's said it explicitly, but a hardware equivalent to SourceForge would be a great asset to the community, where people can share RTL, schematics, PCB and chip layouts, and so forth.

    1. Re:Another site (mostly RTL level) by hotchai · · Score: 1
      Great site! I would love to work on some of those projects (I have the necessary HW knowledge), but the commercial tools are horrendously expensive (e.g. VCS from Synopsys) Sure, there are a few open source tools (Icarus Verilog, gEDA etc.), but they are nowhere close to the commercial tools in terms of capabilities.



      Besides, you need serious cash in order to get your chip fabricated! You have to have some big company pick up your design and fab them in volume. IIRC, some company is now selling chips (SoC) based on the OR1K design ... but that is the only instance I know of a chip actually getting fabbed out of all the projects listed on OpenCores.

    2. Re:Another site (mostly RTL level) by mrand · · Score: 1

      [...] Besides, you need serious cash in order to get your chip fabricated! You have to have some big company pick up your design and fab them in volume. IIRC, some company is now selling chips (SoC) based on the OR1K design ... but that is the only instance I know of a chip actually getting fabbed out of all the projects listed on OpenCores. Many of the opencores designs would work fine in the smallest ($10-$40) FPGA's... no ASIC required.

            Marc
      --
      -- PGP keyID: 0x4C95994D
    3. Re:Another site (mostly RTL level) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Exactly; in fact, most of the design on OpenCores are most often used on FPGAs for that reason (fabrication is expensive). For a solution to that, try http://www.mosis.com/. They combine many low-volume projecs onto MPWs (multi-project wafers) and lower the cost to the point where college VLSI design students can afford to fabricate a few of their class project. Granted, I'm not aware of a way to move from this very low-volume stage to something like production at a foundry like TMSC or UMC, there is a huge price jump I believe, but I'm not sure that's a very big obstacle. If your design is useful enough to justify creating an ASIC in the first place (as opposed to an FPGA or microcontroller+specialized hardware), it's useful enough to fabricate a bunch of them, and if you're not dead-set on the latest and greatest process node, a mask set's cost is manageable as long as your production run is sufficiently large.

      Another thing I would like to see, personally, is something like MPWs at TSMC. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of a way to amortize the cost of a mask set over many small projects. This, of course, would tie the production numbers of all related projects today, but if you're only making a few hundred wafers, perhaps this doesnt matter.

    4. Re:Another site (mostly RTL level) by andyfrommk · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if anybody's said it explicitly, but a hardware equivalent to SourceForge would be a great asset to the community, where people can share RTL, schematics, PCB and chip layouts, and so forth.

      Try this

  10. Re:In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    AFAIK, SPARC is the *only* open source processor.

  11. All your diagrams are belong to ALL of us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Share time!

  12. What is open source hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is something that very, very few people will ever care about.

  13. The paper clip by Bobfrankly1 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The schematics for the paper clip are widely available, and easily cloned, and it runs the open source uBendTo OS!
    -
    Apoligies for bad joke in advance, apoligies for bad spelling come later.

    1. Re:The paper clip by revengebomber · · Score: 1

      Next up: An army of open source Clippy clones.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
      45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  14. Political Implications by Prysorra · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It will be harder to impose policeware. Trusting your computer not to spy on you for someone else (be it criminal or not), is an equation of control. Open source hardware + open source software = nearly zero government leverage. Expect legislation concerning this if this technology takes off.

    1. Re:Political Implications by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      There is still a common layer of communications you will have to use. The police ware could be just as effective there.

      But, Open source means open access and if they have developers willing to make this for common hardware and common software, then there is someone available to make it for your open platform.

      The only ways to truly stop this is to have a private platform with both private hardware and software and not release anything to anyone. This is hardly open. But it does take the sleazy programmer out of the question. I wouldn't expect any software or hardware laws based on the openness because of this. The governments have unlimited resources available to go after you if they think it is necessary. Porting a program to your open platform would just be a casual waiste of them in comparison to some things they do.

    2. Re:Political Implications by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      like the government can't find out what is being transmitted to and from your box anyway. carnivore is still here.

  15. Not really like an object file by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Sure, you cannot edit a pdf, but what is important is the design itself rather than being able to modify it directly. An object file hides the source completely and would be the equivalent of getting a PCB.

    Still, using geda would definitely help. Shame so few people use it. Perhaps a something like a Protel to geda converter would be a GoodThing.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  16. Re:hmm...: answered by zen611 · · Score: 4, Informative
  17. Today is that glorious future by gillbates · · Score: 5, Interesting

    No, you have that right now.

    Every hear of Pad2Pad.com?

    If you can do the layout, they'll make your board for you. Yes, it is kind of expensive for hobby projects, but for a computer motherboard it's not *terribly* bad. A commercially made motherboard is still cheaper, but I guess if you want something without DRM, you're always welcome to implement it yourself.

    Now, the only problem is that implementing and debugging a computer from scratch could be a rather time consuming undertaking. But, if you've got the time, there are places who will build it for you, whatever *it* is.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:Today is that glorious future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just hope the GP poster's motherboard uses max. two layers if (s)he's going to "crank it out" with Pad2Pad. :)

      It's an excellent point you have though: just about any type of fabrication used in products you see today is available to anyone as long as they have the money. We don't exactly need to wait for the future to come.

    2. Re:Today is that glorious future by dfn_deux · · Score: 1

      There are people who will build "it, whatever it is" however I think you are drastically understating the difficulty it is to get a board with the complexity that a modern motherboard requires actually made. Hobby type board manufacturers rely on the fact the most hobby electronics use 1or 2 sided boards, not 6-10 layer boards with exact specs on trace length and orientation that is needed to fit and support the huge number of very high speed components that is needed for even the most basic P4 or Athlon.
      OTOH if you "opensource motherboard" is an 8088 clone built with discrete components you just might be able to get that done...

      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    3. Re:Today is that glorious future by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can usually find that on ebay...

    4. Re:Today is that glorious future by AeroIllini · · Score: 1

      Now, the only problem is that implementing and debugging a computer from scratch could be a rather time consuming undertaking. But the parent was not talking about implementing and debugging a computer from scratch. He was talking about a Dell-style OEM store, but at the circuit level instead of the component level. When you visit Dell.com and customize a computer, choosing mobo, hard disk, cd burner, monitor, etc., all the troubleshooting has been done for you. You just choose options that are presented, and they assemble it for you.

      Now imagine that on a much finer-grain scale, allowing you to choose even the on-board options. Choose a processor, a sound chipset, a wireless chipset, a video chipset, an IDE interface, and a LAN chipset. The OEM then literally builds a motherboard to exactly your specs and sends it to you.

      It doesn't even have to be limited to consumer-type PCs. I could see lots of embedded applications using this same technique (robot wars, DVRs, carputers, portable music/video players, etc.).
      --
      For security, the MD5 hash of this message and sig is 09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.
    5. Re:Today is that glorious future by josath · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here are two places I've seen that have very good prices for low-quantity custom PCB's:

      http://pcbnet.com/
      http://www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/special_price.php

      --
      sig? uhh, umm, ok
    6. Re:Today is that glorious future by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      Pad2Pad is great. My only complaint is (really) that it doesn't run well under Wine.

      That's too bad. I would like to build a memory expansion for my trusty IBM z-50...

  18. Answered Here: +1, Intesting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


    Here is the biggest Open Sores.

    I hope this helps the criminal investigation of the world's largest crime syndicate.

    Patriotically,
    K. Trout, C.T.O.

  19. What is Open Source Bento Boxes? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Im looking for a bento box, it cant be pinku (thats japanese for pink) or any girl color. It has to be
    of 2 or more kotoba (thats japanese for 2 compartments) and has be be chibi (small) sized. And
    has to be really kawaii (cute). Also It has to be about 10-20 bux. And you have to post pics of it
    first (i want to make shure it's kawaii [cute]). And it would be nice if it came with matching
    chopstick holder (WITH chopsticks). OH! and it CANNOT have any cartoon pictures, or be made
    out of plastic. It has to be made of ceramic, or something like that. Also it would be nice if it was
    made in japan. and not in china or corea (korea) or whatever. I have found a bento box similar to
    the one im describing in e-bay, but it was 1 kotoba, and i dont want my gohan (rice) to touch my
    other things (it can get wet and i would not like that, plus 2 compartments looks more kawaii)

  20. There ARE limits to what can be made "Free" by morgue-ann · · Score: 1

    Sure, you can open source hardware, but only in a BSD-style way. Chumby is trying to share-alike their hardware design, but that doesn't work as well as GPL for software or CC Share Alike for something like a work of fiction because while a schematic or PCB can be copyrighted, the netlist implied therin cannot be protected. With dense ASICs/SoCs where most of the design complexity is on-die rather than in the connections on the PCB and the registers in the chip are freely documeted, reverse-engineering isn't hard.

    Chumby's response to this is (parphrasing) "fine hook stuff up to the chumbilical by looking at the MX.21 reference design and tracing connections and you won't be subject to our hardware license," but I wonder if they'll really be hands-off if an accessory developed without agreeing to their hardware developers' license is commercially successful. They're selling the hardware at slim margins and hoping to make profit on the service.

  21. A good example by serviscope_minor · · Score: 3, Informative

    Ronja

    The schematics for electronics and mechanical design are available, including in enditable source form.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:A good example by bergeron76 · · Score: 1

      www.dashpc.com is another example. It's a commercial product but I'm releasing the schematics, board layout files, Gerber files, etc. to the open source community.

      I may lose a couple of sales to DIYers, but I think it's good karma to give back to the community that has given me so much.

      --
      Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
    2. Re:A good example by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://okvm.sourceforge.net/kvmoverip.html is a project with full source and hardware design.

  22. Re:In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystem by Simon80 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Ok, I like Sun and all, and I don't disagree with any of the points you're raising, but how much is Sun paying you to be a Sun fanboy? Perhaps I could get in on this payola action..

  23. My only problem is that... by gillbates · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm surrounded by engineers with the capability to produce open source computers, but...

    Nobody has the time or interest.

    Yes, I (among many) could design and implement a computer complete from the gate-level design all the way up to the compiler and operating system.

    Ironically, now that I have the knowledge, I don't have the time to work on it. It gets worse:

    • I could split it up into small projects and split the workload among several people, but none of my colleagues are interested in doing *anything* outside of work.
    • Prototyping a single board is prohibitively expensive. I could bring the cost down if I had a few people to share the cost (quantity discount), but without others interested in the project, I'm stuck footing the entire bill for the prototype.
    • It is actually cheaper to buy a computer than it is to build a new one from scratch. The BOM for a new computer at retail prices is more expensive than the finished product (which was built from wholesale-priced parts).

    If I did build my own computer, friends and family would inevitably ask, "So why did you spend $(Multiple thousands) for a computer slower than the $299 Sam's club special?", and "Isn't that just an expensive hobby? - you don't really expect people to buy a 1 GHz ARM machine, do you?" etc..

    I would like to work on open source hardware. I do have experience porting Linux to new architectures. But sadly, I think something about corporate america just takes away the passion from the discipline. Since I started programming more than 10 years ago, I have met only one person who was passionate enough about it to do it outside of work. And you know what he did? - mods for a game. Nothing really serious or interesting.

    It's not that there is a lack of talent. Rather, apathy is fatal to open source. And we need to come to terms with the fact that the overwhelming majority of those with the knowledge to do something disruptive, to use their skill to change their world for the better, choose just to go home at night and watch tv.

    They have no geek passion. They are irrelevant to the discipline. And they are exactly what Corporate America wants them to be.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
    1. Re:My only problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'd -love- to work on projects like that, but when you work 60-80 or more hours a week, and have a 2.5 year old, there's just zero time for things like that. There's a lot of people who don't do things outside of work because they value sleeping more than 4 hours a night, which I don't even get every night with just regular work and taking a couple of hours to have a beer and watch some tube to reset my brain.

    2. Re:My only problem is that... by hackerjoe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They have no geek passion. They are irrelevant to the discipline. And they are exactly what Corporate America wants them to be.

      Whatever, I have geek passion, I just don't have all-consuming geek passion. My job is a perfect outlet for the geek passion -- I get to be a geek all day. Then in my off-time I can hang out with friends, listen to music, dance, cook, whatever other hobbies I'm currently pursuing.

      I'm pretty sure that if I worked in sales or management I'd have to work on electronics or write code when I got home. I sure did when I was going to school.
    3. Re:My only problem is that... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      The fact that hardware costs money to design even if you have free labor and free software is a big hurdle.

      Free software is based on the principles of freedom to change the design and the fact that it doesn't cost much money to develop or to use. Free hardware allows you to change the design, but there's still the issue of the cost of development, and even using the designs means spending money to have circuits made.

      I think designing "open" computers is silly, you cannot compete against makers that punch out a million boards. You are better off sticking to an old computer, it's not as if there is a shortage of those.

      Just the fact that people have lives makes this whole thing unpalatable. The people that tend to know how to do this stuff well tend to be already employed doing it. It is better to have a hobby that is not what you make your money doing.

      Personally, I am designing some hardware on my own, but I am doing it so that I can expand my small business. I really can't say that I would be doing it if I didn't think I might be able to make money with the work, and I am certainly not going to give much more than maybe a tiny bit of my work away for free. I'm sure arguments can be constructed that I might still be able to make money giving some of my work for free, but even after reading this site for nearly a decade, I still don't buy that as a general case.

    4. Re:My only problem is that... by AndreyFilippov · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe I'm just lucky, but I'm sure it is possible to make living of the hobby not just for me.

      My little secret is that the market demand for open (and modifiable) hardware is higher than the offer. And that keeps us busy.

    5. Re:My only problem is that... by harry666t · · Score: 0

      "you don't really expect people to buy a 1 GHz ARM machine, do you?"

      I'd buy a few of these if they'd be reasonably priced && "open source hardware", capable of running my free OS of choice and apps I'd write for them. My requirements are something like 32 to 64 mb of ram, 1024x768, 10 GB of HD space. I'll be happy running xfce or E16.

      And you people? What do your computers do in 2007 that they weren't capable of doing in 1997? Except playing new games, processing video and sound, doing fast parallel processing, booting the computer 2 to 3 times faster, running 3D desktops with wobbly blured transparent animated windows, compiling big projects in hours not days, rendering photorealistic images on the fly, and so on... Well, (AMD || Intel) said the GHz race is over, so whatever...

    6. Re:My only problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think there are plenty of things to build that are not in stores .If you have a group of people with "geek passion" there will be plenty of ideas to keep you happy.
      If you have to , you could also consider that devices might be licensed to companies for mass production or sold as kits to benefit open source.

    7. Re:My only problem is that... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Since I started programming more than 10 years ago, I have met only one person who was passionate enough about it to do it outside of work.

      Look at it from a different angle - how many people do you know who do what they do at work in their spare time? If you've been doing something for eight hours at work, it's completely natural to be sick and tired of it. I'm a consultant, and depending on the phase we're in it can be a lot of talk (workshops, meetings, design and documention) or a lot of implementation (application configuration, SQL and Actuate Basic mostly). In my spare time, I like to program. I think you can quite clearly map out the relationship between my work coding and my home coding. Whenever I feel it's been all talk, talk, talk then it's incredibly satisfying to come home and actually make something. On the other hand, if I've been doing that for eight hours straight, I want to disconnect and do something completely else. I think if you really want to keep doing something, anything, voluntarily for more than eight hours a day, then you're walking a thin line between passion and obsession.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    8. Re:My only problem is that... by commonchaos · · Score: 1

      Wait until your friends retire. They'll have plenty of time for this sort of thing then.

    9. Re:My only problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most of those applied to software 20 years ago, as well. The speed of compilation went way up, and the cost of sending source code around the world went way down.

      The same thing is happening for hardware (cheaper and faster to fab small batches). Is there any reason to believe that the same effect on the preconditions won't lead to analogous results, at some point in the possibly-near future?

    10. Re:My only problem is that... by smellsofbikes · · Score: 1

      sparkfun will crank out custom pcb's for $10 setup plus $2.50 per square inch. I design and contract out PCB's for a living and can't find anyone that can beat that price. I use circuit express for my boards, but they cost a *lot* more (although their quality is superb.)

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    11. Re:My only problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but none of my [geek] colleagues are interested in doing *anything* outside of work. Well of course. That would take time away from WoW.
    12. Re:My only problem is that... by iplayfast · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The lack of people who do this stuff for fun is frustrating. I program for a living and for fun, http://code.google.com/p/crylib/wiki/CryLib The problem is that in order for people to be excited about working after hours as a hobby, they have to have a motive or project that really excites them. Programming for most people is a means to an end. If the end is exciting or liberating in some way (an OS kernel is a good example) then more people will join in.

      In my case I'm interested in A.I. and decided that I needed a framework to build some of my ideas around, so I started working on my library. Several years later, I'm still working on my library and only have a couple of A.I. things in it. But the library is getting kinda cool, so I guess it's taking over.

    13. Re:My only problem is that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's the reason why open source business models are important. There will be a hell of a lot more effort once people can concentrate on open source hardware during daytime. As long as open source hardware remains a hobby, it will never get far.

      But as open source software demonstrates, it is possible to find profit in producing stuff without keeping the plans secret -- in fact it is quite encouraging because software is a lot easier for a freeloader to copy software than hardware.

  24. Software needed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I was discussing this with some friends on the web.We need better software tools to aid in cooperation.
    We need a web based schematic editor.
    No bells and whistles are needed just an editor where you can pick basic components and chips with varying numbers of pins.
    A wiki would be good too but it would be a lot easier to edit the schematic on the webpage and save it to the web and/or your hard drive.
    I would love to help but I'm not great at programming.
    Maybe someone could suggest something ?

  25. How is SPARC these days? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I admit I haven't really been paying attention to SPARC recently.

    Can anyone fill me in on what its performance is like compared to x86 these days, when running Linux or Unix (Solaris)? (I don't think MS even supports Windows on non-x86 anymore, except perhaps Itanium and it's probably near-EOL anyway.)

    There seemed to be a lot of buzz about the Niagara stuff a while back, and how amazing the performance/watt was going to be, and then it seemed to evaporate. Did something happen, or was that just the fanboys moving on to something else shiny? (And is Niagara open-source/open-architecture like the more basic SPARC processors?)

    I've always been a big fan of RISC, since back in the early 90s; I think it's sad that we're fast approaching a monoculture, although there's some solace, I suppose, in the fact that with decreasing process sizes, you can now tack the x86 instruction set onto almost any real processor you want. But it certainly seemed like there were more avenues for performance being investigated back when you had IBM with Power, DEC with Alpha, Sun with SPARC, SGI with MIPS, HP with PA-RISC, and probably a bunch more that I've forgotten.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    1. Re:How is SPARC these days? by dfn_deux · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Niagara is wicked fast. It works great for highly parallelized tasks, however it only has a single FPU which makes it pretty much worthless for a lot of the things that you'd want to use a high-end server for. 24 threads and only one FPU does not make for fast ops at all tasks....

      It does have 300% more blue LEDs than the last gen sun hardware though ;)

      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    2. Re:How is SPARC these days? by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      I really wish the industry would give up on blue LEDs.

      They were interesting once, but not anymore. It seems everything needs one or more blue LEDs just to appear modern - my notebook has 16 blue LEDs scattered on top of it, 14 of them are lit now. It hurts the eye to work in low light conditions.

      Are the white ones so much more expensive?

    3. Re:How is SPARC these days? by ncc74656 · · Score: 1
      I bought a 4-disk USB storage box recently. The activity LEDs are an orangey-yellow color that isn't hard on the eyes, but the power indicator is an ultra-bright blue LED that would be more at home in a flashlight. With all of the room lights and the TV off, it lights up my living room so much that I can almost read a newspaper held several feet away from it. I'm on the fence with what to do about it: stick a resistor inline to dim it, or replace it with another color. As it is, it makes the blue LEDs that light up the power button on the Antec Overture case next to it look dim by comparison.

      I almost wish blue LEDs stayed closer to $10-$20 each, like they were 10-15 years ago when they first became available. If they had, we wouldn't have all the hardware designers trying to out-l33t each other by cramming more and more blue LEDs into their products.

      --
      20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
    4. Re:How is SPARC these days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The boss orders the engineer to put a blue led on the device, since everything must have a blue led now and they are cool. The engineer thinks that is stupid, puts the brightest blue led he can find on the prototype, hoping the boss sees how stupid it looks and changes his mind. The boss tells to ship it. The lesson is, passive-aggressiveness doesn't work.

    5. Re:How is SPARC these days? by thommym · · Score: 1

      The Niagara has 8 cores each running 4 threads but have only one combined FPU. It's doing very well as web server etc.
      The Niagara 2 will have one FPU/core so it will also do general computing at rocking speed.
      The Rock will have 16 cores...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_processor

      The machines based on Niagara runs Solaris 10, OpenSolaris, and Ubuntu Feisty Fawn

      --
      Don't feed the penguins
    6. Re:How is SPARC these days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      24 threads and only one FPU does not make for fast ops at all tasks....

      Just a couple of points: Niagara 1 (UltraSPARC T1) has 8 cores, 4 threads per core making 32 threads. Yes, it only has 1 floating point unit (attached to one core), though.

      Niagara 2 has 8 cores, but a floating point unit for each core (i.e. 8) and 8 threads per core, making 64 threads.

      For floating-point intensive workloads and others, ROCK looks like an interesting and highly-innovative development.

    7. Re:How is SPARC these days? by dfn_deux · · Score: 1
      Looks like 24 to me ;)

      Sun Microsystems Inc. SunOS 5.10 Generic January 2005
      # psrinfo
      0 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:04
      1 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      2 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      3 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      4 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      5 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      6 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      7 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      8 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      9 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      10 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      11 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      12 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      13 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      14 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      15 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      16 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      17 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      18 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      19 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      20 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      21 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      22 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      23 on-line since 04/14/2007 21:27:06
      # uname -a
      SunOS [redacted] 5.10 Generic_118833-24 sun4v sparc SUNW,Sun-Fire-T1000
      --
      -*The above statement is printed entirely on recycled electrons*-
    8. Re:How is SPARC these days? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I though Sun sold them with varying numbers of cores from 4 to 8, in an attempt to up the yield, in a similar way to what other chip manufacturers do regarding clock speeds and so on?

    9. Re:How is SPARC these days? by turgid · · Score: 1

      You must have a 6 core one. You can get 4 and 8 core ones too.

  26. Open-Schematic Stereo... by GuruBuckaroo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Years ago, when I was single and could afford toys, I bought a Blaupunkt Tuscon head unit - at the time (1987), it was the absolute best car stereo AM/FM/Cassette head unit you could buy. Could even receive AM Stereo from the one station in town that broadcast it. Set me back $750, and I still had to get an amp for it, since it only had line-level outputs.

    But...

    It came with a COMPLETE set of schematics, including not just block diagrams, but actual component values and chip numbers. Given that schematic, I could have build a complete new unit. I was floored. I almost wanted to try it, just to see if I could - but couldn't imagine trying to build the whole thing on breadboard with my trusty Radio-Shack soldering iron. Would have been the size of an old console record player - the kind that doubles as furniture.

    --
    Poor means hoping the toothache goes away.
    1. Re:Open-Schematic Stereo... by sarathmenon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I can say the same thing about my Dad's Nakamichi 600 II player, which was released in the 80s. It was amazing, expensive as hell, and had the entire circuit diagram etched in the inside case. It actually make me take electronics seriously as a kid!

      --
      Microsoft: "You've got questions. We've got dancing paperclips."
    2. Re:Open-Schematic Stereo... by LaRoach · · Score: 1

      I suspect that was less about being open and more about providing a repair shop the needed info to carry out said repairs. Companies have learned that it's better to get you to buy a new one instead of getting it repaired. If you do actually want to repair it they want you to send it back to them instead of having an independent do the work. They also discovered that they can *sell* you the schematics rather than sticking it inside the chassis. Again, more profit! That and the costs have dropped so much it's often not worth repairing it.

  27. Re:In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not really, there are open source FPGA cores for all kinds of things- though the Sparc is really the only heavy duty, real silicon open source processor.

  28. Open source medical equipment by Simonetta · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Open source medical equipment is where the electronic designs, software, and diagnostic skills are completely and freely available to anyone who wants to build this piece of equipment for their own use. It will probably happen first in the developing world where this kind of equipment is not quite as illegal as it is sure to be in the West.

        A lot of what passes for 'advanced' medical equipment in the US is actually kludged ancient technology. It sells for absurd amounts of money because of the bizarre 'cost-is-no-object' state of the American Health Care industry. And a lot of people are beginning to be denied basic medical care because they don't have the money to pay for it.

        But a lot of medical tests could be done with inexpensive high-tech equipment that has been modified for home medical use. There may come an underground movement to build very high-tech medical equipment cheaply. Equipment that surpasses the quality of what is found in ordinary hospitals, but costs one tenth of the price. It would have no FDA certification, and would be quite illegal. No accredited doctor would use it.

          The difference between open source software and open source medical equipment would be that the medical equipment would be illegal. And the people doing the test and interpreting the results would be subject to arrest for practicing medicine without a license.

            But in many cases, the test results are just electronic data and can be analyzed by computer to give same level of professionalism as found in the hospital. An example of this would be having to pay $150 for a blood pressure test in a hospital that is identical to the test that you would get from the machine next to the door of your local grocery store.

            The US electronic medical equipment industry is in about the same place as the US automobile industry was in early 1970's. Overly restricted by trivial regulations, smug in their belief in their omnipresent power, and completely unaware that they are about to get totally blindsided by people overseas who can do the job much cheaper and much better.

          The USA lost the machine tools industry, the consumer electronics industry, most of the automobile industry, and many other industries by not paying attention to what the global consumers of these products actual need and want to buy. The US medical electronics industry is most likely being targetted now because it is showing all the same characteristics as those other industries that were dominated by American companies after World War Two.

    1. Re:Open source medical equipment by fcc3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Welcome to the OpenEEG project http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/

      Many people are interested in what is called neurofeedback or EEG biofeedback training, a generic mental training method which makes the trainee consciously aware of the general activity in the brain. This method shows great potential for improving many mental capabilities and exploring consciousness. Other people want to do experiments with brain-computer interfaces or just want to have a look at their brain at work.

      Unfortunately, commercial EEG devices are generally too expensive to become a hobbyist tool or toy.

      The OpenEEG project is about making plans and software for do-it-yourself EEG devices available for free (as in GPL). It is aimed toward amateurs who would like to experiment with EEG. However, if you are a pro in any of the fields of electronics, neurofeedback, software development etc., you are of course welcome to join the mailing-list and share your wisdom.

      Right now, this site is mostly about the hardware; schematics, part lists, building instructions etc. However, a few members have developed some useful software which is hosted on their own websites. You can find these through the software pages.

    2. Re:Open source medical equipment by jd · · Score: 1
      I've not seen much development there in the past - is it starting to pick up momentum?

      EEG seems like a good candidate for improvement - typical EEG equipment in actual use seems to me to be somewhere around the 7-bit to 8-bit mark. Accurate analog-to-digital converters (as in: good enough for multi-billion-dollar nuclear experiments, where a mistake won't kill - at least, not until the customer has run out of torture techniques to play with) run up to 24-bit. The number of supported channels is generally very small - that can't really be improved on very much, but you could still probably double it without too much trouble.

      Getting something certified medically - ah, now that's the killer. Even if you used components that were validated for medical use in deep space when next to a Type I supernova, even if you provided a formal design and formal proof of compliance with that design and all medical requirements, you would still be looking at dying of old age before the equipment was certified. Particularly as the established medical community is extremely closed, highly conservative and very rich as a result of their monopoly. You need only look at the stink raised by an Australian doctor's discovery that peptic ulcers could be cured by bismuth and an antibiotic. They damn near lynched him when he presented his paper in the US. Open Source developers are less public and far easier to hide. It's not as if we reach the surface often enough for anyone to know what any of us look like.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    3. Re:Open source medical equipment by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 1

      Yes, I'd like to see open source ultrasound. The tech ain't really all that tough, and in fact probes routinely go up for sale on eBay, which you might be able to get even if you aren't authorized. For hobbyist use only, of course. Or perhaps science fair entries-- ultrasound brain imaging of hamsters or something...

    4. Re:Open source medical equipment by fcc3 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, there is some development. Smd version of hardware being tested, small enough to fit on a headband and communicate to PC via bluetooth. Help is always welcome. More channels are a popular request and not far fetched, the question is whether they are needed for biofeedback. 8 bits resolution seem fine for biofeedback.

  29. A good quote by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Some day, we will make our own TV, then our own TV shows, movies...
    Then we are all set." -Andy Fong, on the Open-graphics mailing list.

  30. There's a foundation all about Open Hardware! by Theovon · · Score: 5, Informative

    Check out:

    http://www.openhardwarefoundation.org/
    http://www.opengraphics.org/

    A lot of people are really taking this idea of open hardware designs very seriously, especially in graphics, where we have a really hard time getting docs out of GPU vendors to write Free Software drivers. One of the commenters on this article said something about how he and his colleagues who know how to do this stuff have no interest in doing it outside of work. This isn't true for everyone. The founder and leader of the Open Graphics Project is an experienced graphics chip designer.

  31. Thompson Hack by harry666t · · Score: 0

    You'll have to cross-compile a kernel, libc, a shell, some core utils and a compiler to the new architecture, thus you may unintentionally carry a hidden backdoor:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdoor#The_classic_ .22Trusting_Trust.22_backdoor_problem

    Unless you're also going to write your new free software from *absolute* scratch using *only* your new, open machine, you can not be 100% sure that you won't be controlled by any third party. That's going to be hard.

    On the other side, theoretically all you need to bootstrap is a C compiler and its most basic dependencies, then you can compile the 'old' stuff like bash, Linux and GCC.

    1. Re:Thompson Hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You only need to write from absolute scratch up to the compiler level, and even there you can read source code in print and enter it onto your "pure" machine. Design and execution are different - here, only the execution to the compiler level needs to be independent. It would be more proper to say you have to implement designs by hand up to the minimum point for a compiler to successfully build itself. There are some interesting dicussions about what consitutes the minimum bootstrap needed to implement a compiler from source code, as this minimum system is what MUST be implemented by hand.

  32. How much hardware variety is truly needed? by bmajik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rank the following tasks in order of complexity:

    - gate-level design of a modern CPU
    - gate-level design of a modern GPU
    - gate-level design of a modern northbridge
    - gate-level design of a modern southbridge
    - gate-level design of a modern audio controller
    - gate-level design of a modern ethernet controller
    - gate-level design of a modern wifi chip
    - gate-level design of a modern usb controller
    - the linux kernel

    my understanding is that there is a lot of really, really badly made hardware out there. the software people are clever enough to reverse engineer the hardware and write drivers. Why not put a few of them to work forward engineering the hardware?

    Which peices of a modern computing system cannot run acceptably off of re-flashable firmware, or better yet, re-flashable FPGAs?

    At this point, are (some) resources better spent trying to create F/OSS reference designs for every essential component to build a fully open computer platform?

    I like the idea of being able to have a 100% open computer, where each of the components is well understood and discussed out in the open, and people aren't wasting a lot of time supporting badly made hardware. Some de-facto standardization around reference open source implementations of the hardware could be a pretty good thing.

    It's actually not stuff like the CPU that i care about.. its more like.. all of the other things that make it onto a motherboard. There's no reason to put up with noisy audio, non-functional s/pdif outputs, buggy "hardware" raid, crappy bios, etc. The only value-add in these components is when they manage to live up to their as-advertised specs reliably.

    --
    My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    1. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      It's actually not stuff like the CPU that i care about.. its more like.. all of the other things that make it onto a motherboard. They invented this great thing called expansion cards a few decades ago, you may wish to look into them (aka: pci cards).

      It's actually not stuff like the CPU that i care about.. its more like.. all of the other things that make it onto a motherboard. There's no reason to put up with noisy audio, non-functional s/pdif outputs, buggy "hardware" raid, crappy bios, etc. The only value-add in these components is when they manage to live up to their as-advertised specs reliably. Then don't buy cheap components or replace the built in cheap components with pci cards. If you want quality then you need to pay for it.
    2. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Problem is that Moore's law is going to kick your ass.

      You see, the linux kernel does not have to be revamped every 1.5 years to keep up with the performance of other operating systems. The same does not apply to hardware.

      If your team does the gate level design of a CPU, you'll have to do it all over again in a couple of years or it will be just an old architecture. I doubt you'll find many people ready to do that. Even if you somehow find a company that will fab your chips on progressively better processes you still have to redesign most of the chip.

      About the only way I see around that are:
      - Do all your hardware virtually in an FPGA. Buy progressively better FPGAs hoping that the architecture doesn't change.
      - Create a program intelligent enough to update designs to new processes and find a fab for them.

      Then again, for standard non-performance-bound chips you might be able to do open hardware.For example I/O chips that conform to a standard don't have to be thrown out until a new standard comes along. Sound cards and USB hubs come to mind. Even raid controllers could be doable (If you trust your data to something you built yourself).

      But for CPUs/GPUs forget it.

    3. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by bmajik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What was the point of your message? Do you actually think I don't know about pci cards?

      I don't think there is an issue of "cheap" or "not cheap" here.. irrespective of how much or how little you pay for a peice of PC hardware, it will tend to have some fault when used in combination with some other peice of hardware.. or it will have some quirk that makes it irritating for your particular scenario. Want your machine to S3 sleep? Hope all of your expansion cards work properly with S3. The fan on my VGA card doesn't power down in sleep modes.. only in hibernate... so I effectively can't use sleep. Now, if i scour high resolution board photos of any part i buy before buying it, i MIGHT get to learn things like that.. but whenever you do a new machine build there is always some discovery / quirkyness to uncover.. no matter how much time you spend reading reviews of hardware from other people, or how carefully you research components.

      One answer to this is "buy a mac", where the whole stack from silicon to software is owned and tested as a cohesive unit. There are some advantages to that model, and I don't see why the same model can't work, or even be better, with a mostly or completely open system.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    4. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by Rakishi · · Score: 1
      So you're advocating a horribly expensive and convoluted alternative to an online hardware quirks database.

      One answer to this is "buy a mac", where the whole stack from silicon to software is owned and tested as a cohesive unit. There are some advantages to that model, and I don't see why the same model can't work, or even be better, with a mostly or completely open system. If you want a tested and mass produced computer then yes you can go buy a Dell, IBM, Mac and so on. You can also find what builds other people have, ask them questions and then use the one which doesn't seem to have problems (for them). You can't have the freedom (and arguably greater performance) of picking any part and the security of a cohesive "pre-built"/"tested as a whole" machine.

      It's not like Open Source software always works together and it probably has more quirks than an equivalent amount of hardware (remember software usually has less selection than hardware does for a given task).
    5. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful

      there is a lot of really, really badly made hardware out there. the software people are clever enough to reverse engineer the hardware and write drivers. Why not put a few of them to work forward engineering the hardware?

      I don't believe I can reasonably even count all the reasons why not, let alone explain them all here...

      First, I'd say economies of scale... The fewer people buy it, the more you'll have to charge, and the more you charge, the fewer people will buy one...

      Another is the pace of technology... Every time hardware changes, you have to update the design, and start building new hardware... eg. DDR to DDR2 RAM, Socket 939 to AM2, etc., etc.

      To be a real option, you're going to have to have different form factors for hardware. With motherboards that means ATX, microATX, nanoATX, and whatever else. For graphics that means PCI, AGP 2/4/8X, etc., as well as PCIe, and integrated chipsets for the purpose as well.

      Additionally, while creating drivers for undocumented hardware is quite difficult, it's still at least an order of magnitude easier to send bytes to a device and see what they do, than it is designing an efficient chip, even for something simple like sound.

      But the point that I think cuts directly to the heart of the issue is: If people were willing to standardize on a single reference platform, as dictated by an open source guru, you could just start doing that tomorrow... Name the CPU, name the motherboard, name the sound card, graphics, etc., etc. Then everyone's efforts are focused on a single set of hardware, with working drivers for that small set of hardware, etc.

      That would be using normal economic forces to your advantage, instead of trying to fight market forces, and enter the market yourself. It could make open source a valuable bloc of customers for any company who can offer reliable and documented products. The problem is, of course, that nobody is going to accept those terms. People want to use the hardware they have, and don't want to be restricted to the lowest common denominator hardware, lacking the features, specs, or the form factor they want.

      As has already been said by others, a hardware review site, which extensively tested equipment for 100% correctness, all-around quality, and open source compatibility, would be extremely valuable, and much more helpful than an over-priced reference platform.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    6. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by bmajik · · Score: 1

      I understand the points you're making, but i think one thing you are overlooking can be described the following way:

      the things that would make people standardize on an open source hardware platform are the same things that would make them standardize on an open source software / app stack: absolute and complete freedom

      Linux generally isn't the technical winner at any particular task, IMO. But anyone is free to make it arbitrarily good or arbitrarily suit their purpose, and the mainstream, non-tinkering linux user gets something pretty good as a result.

      Why not the same for hardware?

      Linux is a good idea. LinuxBIOS is a good idea. Replacing embedded firmware with linux is often a good idea.

      There is a great deal of crazy, one-or-two off projects happening in and around the linux code base, but most people just get -latest or whatever their vendor ships. No one takes something existing and standardizes it by fiat... what's good gains acceptance via inertia and iterative improvement.

      I don't see why the situation with open hardware would be different?

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    7. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by rbanffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If we are considering open-source hardware added to open-source software, do we really need this complexity? Most of it exists to give the newest Intel Core 2 Duo or Opteron the illusion they are really 8088s inside an old IBM PC 5150 from the time they power-up to the time they reset themselves into more civilized modes. I find it very interesting my notebook still thinks it has an ISA bus somewhere within its guts.

      The fact that an x86 computer is an ugly hack should not dissuade those who want to design elegant hardware.

    8. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by bmajik · · Score: 1

      You are exactly right. Given the relative lack of binary compatability in linux x86, there's no reason to stick with any part of the hardware that is problematic. LinuxBIOS is a great example of how elegant and performant something can be when you curtail some of its compatabiliy requirements.

      I'd welcome the sort of hardware one might see if one were to build a dedicated linux workstation.

      I'm not talking about ditching the x86 processor (necessarily). Keeping CPUs fast requires real, heavy lifting. But there is a wide variance in the quality of ethernet controllers, for instance, and there's no reason to put up with a low quality one..and these things are afterthoughts for a lot of the big vendors, but very important to me.

      --
      My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
    9. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have literally dozens of 450 MHz AMD K6-III+ motherboards and machines, with similarly old video cards, because they use little power and I standardized on those for my basement web hosting business.

      I can do better than those using IBM Thinkpads that otherwise work but the screen is broken. They use way less power, and are a little more powerful. But I am learly of getting screwed with all the weird laptop hardware issues.

      I would buy an open source hardware solution, even if I knew it was going to be out of date from the minute I bought it, but if it's open sourceness gauranteed me I could get new ones made for the next ten years (provided I was willing to pay the money, of course).

    10. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      I got your point, but I was not even talking bout this.

      I was wondering why the hell we still have a PC inside an AT inside a 386 inside a lot of other things up to a recent x86 processor.

      Do we really still need to boot PC DOS 1.0 and run Wordstar?

    11. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by evilviper · · Score: 1

      Linux generally isn't the technical winner at any particular task, IMO. But anyone is free to make it arbitrarily good or arbitrarily suit their purpose, and the mainstream, non-tinkering linux user gets something pretty good as a result.

      Why not the same for hardware?

      Because hardware isn't, and can't be made, at zero cost. Making changes is expensive. Making copies is expensive. Modifying existing designs may be more expensive than starting from scratch, anyhow.

      If Linux required a $1,000 license, how popular do you think it would be?
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    12. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

      I would never buy a computer which can't disable the A20 address line through the keyboard controller! :-)

      --
      The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
    13. Re:How much hardware variety is truly needed? by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      Argh! Thanks for reminding me what it really means to be PC compatible...

      Does a MacBook have an 8042/8742 built into them somewhere?

  33. Re:Hardware that crashes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    I was almost worried we wouldn't see a FUD post by you in this thread. A thread on open source or Linux just isn't as good without a troll post by The_Abortionist.

  34. Re:Two years ago was that glorious future by Animats · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Pad2Pad does less than they used to. The original idea of Pad2Pad was that they'd make the blank board, then assemble and solder all the parts, using anything in the Digi-Key catalog. That made it useful, especially since surface mount device soldering really needs to be done in a production environment with the right tooling.

    But they couldn't do it profitably. Now they're just another blank PC board maker, of which there are hundreds. It's been routine to send out your board design files and get boards back for almost twenty years now.

  35. Re:Flash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How can you call anything that uses Flash as it's primary development tool open (in the FSF sense)?

  36. It is very important, that's what. by dgym · · Score: 1

    I want a computer that I can trust, and one day I might not
    be able to buy that from any of the major manufacturers.

    As long as there are designs available, and places that can
    make them, we will at least have options should the industry
    giants do something stupid.

    1. Re:It is very important, that's what. by zzo38 · · Score: 1

      Can't you just purchase any computer and replace the operating system and BIOS with your own? (If you can't, I guess some minor companies that don't exist yet will then sell proper computer that actually works)

  37. When will the production lines become open source? by id3as · · Score: 1

    I can't wait until not just these, but also the production lines become opensource. I wait until we have open source models of mobile phones, cars, computers, airplanes, and their production lines open source as well!

  38. Re:In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystem by renegadesx · · Score: 0

    OpenPOWER from IBM also.

    --
    Make SELinux enforcing again!
  39. Not necessarily by pestie · · Score: 1

    That's only true if the economic environment stays the same as it is today, especially with regards to cheap energy. The "peak oil" crowd claims that energy will get much more expensive in the future, in which case the existing economies of scale are lost and it becomes cost-effective to do more and more of the work yourself, or on a small, distributed, localized scale vs. huge and highly industrialized. Regardless of what you think of peak oil (I have serious doubts myself), it's just one of many possible ways in which the economic environment may change to make your assumptions untrue.

    All of this disregards other potential factors, such as personal beliefs and preferences (maybe you want to avoid supporting certain corporations or business practices) or control (various cartels and special interests control the commercially-available hardware, making self-fabrication the only way to acquire certain types of hardware). This all may be hobbyist-level tinkering for now, but there's no telling when it might become very relevant.

  40. Not quite. The ESA beat them to it. by jd · · Score: 1

    Mind you, that was also a SPARC, albeit a SPARC clone. The ESA developed a fully GPLed rad-hardened SPARC replacement, which I believe Atmel then took over. But they were the first.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  41. My only problem is that...obsession. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "It's not that there is a lack of talent. Rather, apathy is fatal to open source. And we need to come to terms with the fact that the overwhelming majority of those with the knowledge to do something disruptive, to use their skill to change their world for the better, choose just to go home at night and watch tv."

    Well I have the skill and talent however my education wasn't "open-source" and therefore I spend a lot of time at work paying for it, and when I get home the last thing I want to be bothered with is "my job".

  42. The Open Hardware License (OHL) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I really like the license over at http://www.tapr.org/ohl.html it was created by a bunch of HAM radio guys.

  43. Open hardware is NOT useless! by chris_mulhearn · · Score: 2, Informative

    To those of you saying "I have the skills, but why bother?" or "Why would some company bother?", I can give a halfway decent example of why "closed" hardware can kind of stink. Of course, its also an example of why "closed" hardware can kind of be nice, for the manufacturer, especially if they are also sell content for that hardware.

    I ported uClinux to the Sony PSP (check it out at http://df38.dot5hosting.com/~remember/chris/. It wasn't on slashdot because they had more important stories to run, like what operating systems the iPhone DOESN'T run. But I'm not bitter ;)

    Anyways, this project was a major pain in the ass, and at the moment its kind of stalled. The problem is that the hardware design is closed, and most of the components are all consolidated onto one giant Sony ASIC so inspecting the motherboard is no help.

    So... It took a million years just to get the memory map right, and understand the exception/interrupt plumbing of this customized not-quite-MIPS-R4400 cpu core, and understand how to talk to the video, serialport, cache controller, etc.

    Now, I happen to know at least 10 people who would buy a PSP if it had a really well supported linux. Allowing people to target a popular platform, rather than a proprietary one, would allow really neat applications that made use of this things built-in Wifi/Audio/etc. In short, if it was an open platform, it would allow for better interoperability, more diverse applications, blah blah blah. And if its Truly Truly "open", people could even make new PSP's that maintained compatibility with current PSP software, but optimized it for other tasks, etc. Whatever, you name it.

    Of course, Sony is a content company. The memory stick interface, from which you can launch applications, makes one think "Maybe I can write some software to dump my friend's UMD game to memory stick, and then launch that game from the memory stick, so I can copy it." But thats REMARKABLY difficult on the PSP because they will only run memory stick code that is cryptographically signed by Sony (unless buffer overflow exploits are used, etc. which exist and are what make uClinux/PSP possible) and due to the closed nature of the platform, I don't think anyone even knows how to get a signed copy of a UMD onto a memory stick.

    So it works pretty well for Sony. And it stinks for me.

  44. RepRap and Weapons by nurb432 · · Score: 0

    "dont use it to make weapons, bla bla bla"

    1 - Pansy ass. If it wasn't for those 'evil' weapons you wouldn't have the freedom to do your expirements.
    2 - You released the 'specs', so you no longer get to choose how its used. So get over yourself.

    Ya, mod me down, but that sort of 'clueless holier then now' attitude really pisses me off.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  45. HDCP by ejasons · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I'm kinda hoping for someone to build a HDCP in => analog component, discrete audio out...

  46. Re:In a nutshell... OpenSPARC from Sun Microsystem by rbanffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Someone should give a cheap implementation of SPARC a shot. IIRC, SPARC is very fast running C code because the way its internal registers are organized - minimizing memory hits to move stuff to and from a stack.

    With the current critical mass of free and open-source software, there is little to no need to use x86 processors - a cheap, Solaris or Linux based notebook or desktop would solve a whole lot of problems people use those x86 abominations for.

    My 166 MHz Ultra 1 still starts Firefox 2.5 faster than my 800MHz Pentium III. Other than the different processor architectures, I can't explain this difference (of course, the PC is running Windows, but not even that could explain the performance penalty).

  47. OS hardware = sharing the, uh, source by christian.einfeldt · · Score: 1

    Okay, so the term "Open Source" gets stretched a lot these days, from "Open Source" religion to "Open Source" politics. In some places, it applies better than others. But IMHO, it is actually possible to share the "source code" by abstracting the hardware and sharing the info on-line. Think of it as a free and open inventory of hardware that anyone could access. Maybe "co-op hardware" is a better term for it. But still, the idea is that if we want to see a wider adoption of FOSS, we are going to have help people get it on hardware. And why not save the environment in the process? I started DIYparts.org, which is a free (beer and freedom) site for exchanging hardware locally, so as to avoid the cost of shipping. This is not really a shameless, plug, because it is there for the community to use. I don't make any money from the site.

  48. Re:Flash by morgue-ann · · Score: 1

    1) SoC (MX.21)
    2) Board-level design
    3) OS (Linux (or probably ucLinux))
    4) "Middleware" (Flash interpreter)
    5) Applications

    For Chumby, 2, 3 and 5 are open in some way or another. You don't have to write in Flash, it's just that they don't want you to distribute binary apps or anything that doesn't talk only to their network. Their ability to enforce this is hampered by US intellectual property law still having some limits though.

    On a PC running Linux, the silicon RTL and board-level design and possibly some of the silicon programming details (video, wireless) aren't open, but people are still happy developing open windowing systems and open applications on it.

  49. Xbox 360 by tepples · · Score: 1

    The only ways to truly stop this is to have a private platform with both private hardware and software and not release anything to anyone. You mean like on Xbox 360? Introducing free software to some widely available computing platforms is forbidden by DMCA or foreign counterparts. The driver signing requirements in 64-bit Windows Vista OS appear to represent Microsoft's desire to take the PC platform squarely in the direction of being as closed as an Xbox.
    1. Re:Xbox 360 by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Well, the Xbox360 is a console and not a general purpose computer which means when you buy it, your buying a device not a computer. But this isn't relevant to our discussion.

      I was replying to the idea of being free from policeware like what was linked to in the parent post. Legal or not, If you do open some software to go onto the Xbox360, or place the device into the public to be availible in any ways, you won't be free from police ware because the cops could just get a copy of it, adapt their software and then have it installed onto your platform. So hiding the platform and the type of software from everyone would be the only way to avoid stuff like the police ware. but this still wouldn't stop the interception of anything in the middle of the communications like the TCP communications or something.

      I don't think anything the Xbox360 does, could offer the protections from the policeware simply because it is available to the people making the policeware/spyware. It would only make it harder for them to apply it. I think we are talking about two different issues here.

      And on another note, I don't see why microsoft doesn't have one of these 360s available to people who want to load their own software on. Of course seeing how MS undercuts the costs by a markup on the software for the systems and therefore sells the device at a loss. This means that any open version would probably be full price and I don't think there would be a market for it. The market for running other software seems to be were you buy the product under-costs and instead of using the official software, you use your own. It is a way to get something for less then costs which seems to be more trickery then a legitimate indulgence of use. I would imagine the Xbox360 would cost around twice as much or more if MS wasn't expecting to recapture the costs in the software that works with it.

  50. more like Gnash amirite? by tepples · · Score: 1

    How can you call anything that uses Flash as it's primary development tool open (in the FSF sense)?

    For one sense, the FSF uses the term "freedom" rather than "openness". For another, what is so non-free about haXe and Gnash?

  51. Apple II polyphonic synth by mattr · · Score: 1

    It was about 1981 or 82 and my friend Stephen Hayes, then IIRC a Junior at Montclair Kimberley Academy in New Jersey, showed me assembler code he had written for the Apple ][. I had pored over Steve Wozniak's code which was distributed with my Apple ][ as well. Hayes' assembler didn't look like dot matrix printouts, he wrote and debugged it in pencil, a function to a sheet of paper. What he built that I remember:

    A Robotron arcade game clone. Was just like the real thing. I think I worked on the splash screen maybe.

    A monochrome high resolution, realtime 3D Asteroids game which I have never seen before or since then. Your isoceles tetrahedral spaceship can be aimed anywhere in 3D using two game paddles (a dial and button each) for altitude and azimuth. The asteroids are dodecahedrons and what have you, and everything (shooting, pulverizing of asteroids, etc.) happens in an oblong IIRC wraparound game space.

    A polyphonic synthesizer (also in 6502 assembler like everything else). You could press and release several (up to 5 or 7 IRIC) keys on the keyboard simultaneously, individually and for arbitrary lengths of time, and the program generated *simultaneously voiced* complex chords by adding together the notes. This was mind-numbing. He wrapped it in tin foil and gave a concert to the school on the stage of the school auditorium. It was the Cars, a song which was going through my head the other day which is maybe why I remember now. At any rate nobody was expecting you could do something like this with an Apple ][.

    Programming the Apple in Basic was fun, but Pascal (using the 16KB language card) and 6502 assembler were awesome. Pascal was the reason I loved my brother's later Apple /// and why I felt such loss when it got discontinued. The idea that you can do things that weren't expected is a great thing about open source. If anything, making it easier to write safe low-level code and add safely and cheaply add circuits with clip-on fpga based units would be fabulous for education. I only wish I still had my 5 1/4" floppy data! And I wish I could use the Apple P.I.E. (Programmers' Interactive Editor) for daily work.

  52. Software, hardware -- why not government itself? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Open source governance was just an idea a few years ago. Now it is beginning. Not to put too fine of a point on it, but THAT is the way we will find true freedom.

  53. Not going to happen. by nbritton · · Score: 1

    Now imagine that on a much finer-grain scale, allowing you to choose even the on-board options. Choose a processor, a sound chipset, a wireless chipset, a video chipset, an IDE interface, and a LAN chipset. The OEM then literally builds a motherboard to exactly your specs and sends it to you.
    You can't really do this anymore because motherboard features are determined, solely, by the MCH and ICH chipsets. This is the first thing you should research when looking for a new board, once you know what can be connected to the chipsets you can simply power search newegg.com for the boards that meet your requirements... If newegg doesn't carry it you can still use them to get a list of companies that might make what your looking for.
  54. Get realistic by gillbates · · Score: 1

    To complete an open-source hardware project (say, design a complete computer) yourself, you would need an all-consuming geek passion.

    But, if you work as part of a team with others, your contribution can be quite small, and the project can still have a large impact.

    The idea is that you break up a project into small enough chunks that even those who don't have much time - say, only an hour a week - can contribute to a larger, exciting project.

    For example, consider designing a computer motherboard. Think of the tasks that can be done independently:

    • The power supply.
    • The memory subsystem.
    • The various busses and bus architecture.
    • Various peripherals.
    • The boot code and ROM/EPROM/EEPROM/FLASH programming.
    • The CPU and memory architecture.
    • The overall board schematic - partitioned among several people.
    • The board layout.
    One individual could do all of these, or the task could be split up among several people. Even those of us with packed schedules could manage to design the motherboard's power supply given a 6 month goal.

    I think the issue is that apathy is all too common. Yes, there are people interested in doing these things, but unfortunately, we are so few and far between that the social connections upon which these projects are contingent never get formed.

    --
    The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
  55. Re:Software, hardware -- why not government itself by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, anarchy is *true* freedom. But it inevitably degrades into a system of government at some point.

  56. Run gEDA on your Windoze box--sans install by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no supported Windows version of gEDA.

    Without installing gEDA, you can still run it on a M$-only box.
    Boot to a Live CD that contains gEDA:
    The Usenet Archive -- sci.electronics.cad (Stuart Brorson)

    I'd be surprized if there wasn't also a Windoze built on Bittorrent.

    gewg_

  57. Open Hardware Business Models by drowe67 · · Score: 1

    I am building a business based on Open Source Hardware: http://www.rowetel.com/blog/?p=14. Open hardware also has potential to help the developing world: http://www.nextbillion.net/blogs/2006/09/05/is-ope n-source-hardware-an-answer

  58. Why clone when you can create? by rhyre417 · · Score: 1
    The complexity is wasted if you just want to clone a PC. Happily, the open source software that would run on open hardware doesn't require a PC clone. All you really need is:
    • standard board form factor
    • CPU (Arm9 or OpenSparc or anything would do here)
    • FPGA for emulation, graphics, and/or support functions (might need two)
    • Flash Memory to store Open Firmware and FPGA bitstream
    • RAM sockets (30-pin SIMM sockets are probably free of patent issues ;-)
    • USB interface (for mass storage)
    • free FPGA development tools
    • Serial or PS/2 mouse/keybord port
    • Parallel port (seem retro now, but good for for external hardware hacking)
    • Internal Expansion bus standard (not aware of open designs for busses here)
    All of the above has to be free of patent encumberance, so USB might be a problem.

    The C-One reconfigurable computer is a good prototype of what's possible.

    The biggest open source hardware contribution would be:

    • an open, peer2peer high-speed serial bus that can run up to 3-5 feet (Ethernet?)
    • a universally available connector for the above
    • FOSS EDA tools for electronics design, VHDL compiler, schematic capture, place-and-route, PC board design, etc.
  59. Geek Passion Re:My only problem is that... by rhyre417 · · Score: 1
    Once interest happens, time will follow. Try robotics - it's a way to get into hardware with a purpose. It is like it was with PCs in the late 1970s, there are hobbyists, hackers, companies, and Microsoft too! http//robotics.microsoft.com

    Once you decide you want a robot, you'll need a board with a processor. These are systems that have good documentation, and some even claim some degree of "openness" in publishing schematics and encouraging you to build your boards yourself.

    (digilent has upgraded the S3 board with more features, including LCD) You get approximately what you pay for, but you don't have to worry about DRM or odd bootloaders with this hardware. In most cases you STILL need a traditional PC to download software to these. The gogoboard is a cousin to the MIT cricket - using a PIC microcontroller. It won't run Linux as you think about Linux.