Posting Porn Link Judged Unlawful in Hong Kong

hkxforce writes "Can you imagine posting a link to a website that would get you arrested by the police? In Hong Kong, a middle-age man has been heavily fined for posting a porn link in an adult discussion forum. 'A court in the Kwun Tong district of the city heard that Woo provided a hyperlinked message on the forum which, when clicked, would enable other forum users to access an overseas pornographic website showing the photos. But Internet Society chairman Charles Mok Nai-kwong said the court case raised several concerns. 'In this case, the court has given a new direction to the public concerning the responsibility of internet users,' he said. Mok added that he also believed the case could damage the freedom of information on the internet. 'This man posted a link on the internet which now becomes an act that constitutes the breaking of law, and my question is whether a link is being regarded as the 'obscene article,'' he said.'"

Comments

Oh Yeah?

[Eddi3]

Oh Yeah? Well, take THIS!

http://pichunter.com/

Re:Oh Yeah?

[vivaoporto]

If posting a picture of nekkid women in Hong Kong can get you arrested, I don't wanna imagine what happens to whoever is brave enough to post a link to Goatse there. Oh, my eyes!

Re:Oh Yeah?

[owlnation]

The thing about goatse is though, is that it's NOT porn.

It's probably more akin to horror. It's eye violence, eye rape. It actually is offensive to most people, it's design and utilization is to shock and offend.

Not so with porn. While that does offend right wing religious fascists and left wing womens groups (what a nightmare combination), it does not offend many other people - most people, in fact.

The object of porn is enjoyment. Thus it should really be embraced and encouraged as long as (some) controls are in place to ensure it gets to its appropriate audience. Arresting people for pasting links is not appropriate control.

And since this thread can be safely considered NSFW, and is going to be a NSFW link free-for-all, then here's my preferred site.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[bhtooefr]

However, there is a pornographic element to goatse, is there not?

Re:Oh Yeah?

[MooUK]

There is explicit nudity. I wouldn't call it pornographic in the slightest.

Not all nudity is porn.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't think that is porn then you missed the full photoset. In fact, that is gay porn. Other images show him with buttplugs and other sex-toys.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[SL Baur]

Ewww. I definitely did not want to know that. I hope you enjoyed yourself investigating it.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[McTaggart]

Unless you're into that kinda thing.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tich, spoken like someone who hasn't known the joys of double fisting. :)

Re:Oh Yeah?

[Anonymous Coward]

Still it's not really gay porn that is pleasurable to watch to gay males. It's more like porn mixed with grotesque.

A straight analogy would be tub girl (the woman who has diarrhea fountains).

Re:Oh Yeah?

[asninn]

I'd tend to agree that goatse is not porn simply because for all we know, it's not meant to arouse per se, but it's not designed to shock, either, even though it's been used that way. From what I know (not very much, admittedly), there is a bunch of people in the world (I'm not sure whether you should call them a "subculture" or not; that term seems to imply more than just a common interest, but I can't think of anything better) who are interested in anal dilation, and the goatse picture is simply one from a series by one guy who was showing off how far he had come.

So no, I wouldn't call goatse "horror" or describe it as designed to "shock and offend". (And certainly, I wouldn't call it "eye violence" or "eye rape", either. Come on, if goatse is the worst thing you've ever seen, you must've been living a VERY sheltered life indeed!)

Re:Oh Yeah?

[fbjon]

and other sex-toys.

"That's no moon, those are Ben Wa balls!"

Re:Oh Yeah?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

The thing about goatse is though, is that it's NOT porn.

It's not? I would laugh if someone managed to defend themselves with that argument in a HK court.

Re:Oh Yeah?

[bestxxxtrials]

I agree 100% with you. Porn is out there for your enjoyment. Check out my preferred site.....http://www.bestxxxtrials.com/

OK let's play

[DaveRexel]

How about flooding the forum in question with, let's say goatse links posted by users registered from outside the courts juridiction?

Re:OK let's play

[sheriff_cahill]

Being an Australian, I wouldn't risk it. They'd probably extradite me.

red light district?

[polar red]

Is telling someone the correct way to the red light district also illegal then ?

Re:red light district?

[a.d.trick]

Methinks slashdot would do good to provide a "-10 on first post" option.

I wonder if even a car analogy could be worse than this one. The two situations are different on so many levels. In the story, the man offered information that nobody asked for, it was in a public forum, and the the information made the provocative material very accessible. In your example, one would expect the guy was explicitly asked, it was in a private conversation, and the stuff probably requires a bit of effort to get to (at least a decent stroll or a short car ride).

A more apt analogy would be someone going into a store and intentionally leaving a pornographic magazine were everyone can see. People didn't ask for it, it's public, and while your not actually showing it to them, it doesn't take to much effort to pick it up and read it.

Re:red light district?

[telso]

Let's change the analogy slightly then: someone is standing on a street with a sign that has the address of a shop that sells porn. No worse than the people who have those signs that say "Sale inside" or "Larouche 4 Prez!!!!11!1!" If the name of the shop has obscene words in it, just as if the name of the website has obscene words in it, that's different (assuming you believe in obscenity laws), but because I should be allowed to write a civic address on a sign and walk around with it, there's no reason I can't link to some IP address (i.e. xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx).

Re:red light district?

[d34thm0nk3y]

Is telling someone the correct way to the red light district also illegal then ?

Not in the states at least. Telling someone how to descrable CSS is though.

CSI

[Ohreally_factor]

So when can we expect to see CSI: Goatse Victims Unit?

Re:CSI

[Anonymous Coward]

That'd be law and order: Shock site Victims unit
for CSI it'd be CSI: Slashdot Trolls.

Second-hand links?

[Jugalator]

So it's OK to post a link to a non-porn site that posted a porn link? Like this link?

Linking bad, marijuana good

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're a cop, you can have some marijuana and still get a way with it.
http://www.courttv.com/news/2007/0510/pot_ap.html

Re:Linking bad, marijuana good

[Anonymous Coward]

Direct link to recording between the cop and 911 (warning: very funny):
http://media.freep.com/audio/2007/0510potcop_freep .mp3

Yes, I can.

[Chris_Jefferson]

Can you imagine posting a link to a website that would get you arrested by the police?

Yes I can. If I posted a link to hard-core snuff porn on a primary school web-forum, it wouldn't suprise me. In my world of analogises, that would be like walking into a primary school and handing the stuff out on DVDs, and I'd hope most people would want that to be an offence.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

walking into a primary school and handing the stuff out on DVDs, and I'd hope most people would want that to be an offence.

God, what is it with you americans and sex. Why is it dangerous to see two people have sex, but it is perfectly OK to see people be beaten up, maimed and killed??

Handing out DVDs in a school is, and should not be, a criminal offence. That is ludicrous.

I don't know how repressed you were as a kid, but when I grew up, 10 year olds were reading pr0n on paper. They were just curious and it would not make the world better to arrest them for a criminal offence, just because the pr0n is on DVDs.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is it dangerous to see two people have sex, but it is perfectly OK to see people be beaten up, maimed and killed??

I think you missed the part where he said hard-core snuff porn.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Chris_Jefferson]

1) I'm not American
2) I said "snuff film" which a) is people begin killed and b) I really hope you weren't watchin when you were at school.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

1) I'm not American
2) I said "snuff film" which a) is people begin killed and b) I really hope you weren't watchin when you were at school. You forgot:
3) Does not really exist

Meanwhile, shame on you for wanting to criminalize what is essentially a terms of service/contractual violation.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is very convenient to invent a non-existing threat that matches the solution you wanted to begin with. Show us those links that you think should be made illegal.

Fake murders are in every Hollywood movie ever made, most children cartoons are about violence and real murders are on CNN et al.

If you by "snuff film" mean films of people being murdered in real life, do you realise that the only place to watch that is on the TV news channels. Do you realise that the CNN live coverage of the bombing of Baghdad showed hundreds if not thousands of people being killed, in live television? Should it then be a criminal offence to post CNN links on school web forums?

Perhaps some murders are OK to show to children, because we call them war and the almighty President authorized them.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

snuff porn.

Where I come from, snuff is ingested through the nose. There's no link to sexual arousal.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Canadian and when I was in junior-high I had a friend from Romania. His mom would give him playboy magazines for his birthday. We all thought she was the coolest mom ever.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "world of analogises" would be incorrect, it would be the same as walking into a school and saying, you can find x if you go to b. It is not the same as handing out the material, only telling you where to find it.

Re:Yes, I can.

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless they show people actually getting shot with the camera focused on the lifeless corpse(s) falling to the ground with the lifeless visages hitting the ground while a pool of blood comes out, I wouldn't call their coverage "live deaths." All you see are bombs blowing stuff up from far off and dead corpses long after the event.

Re:Yes, I can.

[martin-boundary]

Yeah, and on 9/11 if we listen to your advice we only saw news footage of a bunch of fun loving guys and gals who were jumping off the flaming towers for the sport of it. Face it: TV news do snuff films all the time when it suits them. I'll also remind you that when you see a corpse in a bombed out shelter in Iraq, it's an actual real corpse of a real dead person who's still a little warm, not some faked up dummy like they have on CSI and other TV shows you think are cool.

so what happens when...

[Phil246]

someone posts a link to a perfectly innocent thing; the host for which later either changes the image maliciously or as a result of a security breach into something forbidden.
Would they hold the person who posted the link at fault then?

Re:so what happens when...

[iknownuttin]

someone posts a link to a perfectly innocent thing; the host for which later either changes the image maliciously or as a result of a security breach into something forbidden.

On the other hand, if someone intentionally posts a link to kiddie porn or to some hate site, they can use the excuse of "I didn't say anything, I just posted a link!"

The same would go here on /.. If I posted a link that just abused Apple or Linux users, I would be modded "Flamebait" or "Troll" even though I wasn't the one who actually said it. It would be considered as if I said it.

Re:so what happens when...

[aussie_a]

a) Hate sites should be legal. As much as despise whats spouted, I believe in freedom of speech. b) Comparing it with posting a link to child porn would only be correct if normal porn is illegal.

Re:so what happens when...

[bheer]

And you'll be surprised how this ISN'T the case throughout much of the world. Most Americans take it for granted, but it's pretty much an American innovation. Even liberal European democracies reserve very broad powers to curb speech in the name of a vaguely defined "public order". And you should hear Germans on how Nazi speech should be curbed (I wonder if they're really that afraid of neo-Nazis, or are they trying to suppress a rather painful national nightmare).

And even though some people claim that there are ways to subvert this in the US, it's actually pretty hard (and you have rights even within Guantanamo, see Hamdan v. Rumsfeld). One /. poster has a sig that goes "the root password to the US constitution is child porn". Well, child porn is illegal because it harms those who society judges cannot protect themselves. The legal theory is very well worked out, for example, the Supremes have clarified multiple times that 'simulated' child porn, though repugnant, cannot be illegal.

Free speech laws have meaning only if they protect speech that genuinely makes you mad. I find it astonishing that so many nations fail this test.

Re:so what happens when...

[RealGrouchy]

I dunno, I've only had the reverse happen.

- RG>

Re:so what happens when...

[aussie_a]

And you'll be surprised how this ISN'T the case throughout much of the world. Actually as an Australian I understand this. In Australia we don't have constitutionally protected free speech. We instead have laws that define what we can't say and everything is fair game. And your dead right on other places around the world (heck, even Canada I believe) banning hate speech. Perhaps because there is nothing stopping my government from enacting such laws is why I'm more for free speech then I would be otherwise.

Re:so what happens when...

[bheer]

I could be wrong, but if I'd guess what keeps free speech going in England and Australia (and Canada) is Anglo-Saxon culture. Historically Britain always had the local wit and court jesters saying the most inconvenient things, and that I believe made it into judicial attitudes in a bottom-up sort of way, as judges became increasingly reluctant to ban any sort of expression on moral grounds (e.g. the case of the band on Lady Chatterley's Lover).

It's interesting to look at countries like Germany or India, which ban hot-button speech (Nazis, religious hate speech). The interesting thing is that these countries actually do have a tradition of free speech, it's just that a nanny state government was so traumatized by some events (WW2, Pre-Partition religious violence) that they had this knee-jerk response of banning certain kinds of speech.

What makes this really interesting is it's sort of hard to predict how a combination of PC culture and Muslim immigrants (who have different sensitivities than the natives) will pan out for the countries that don't protect speech the way the US does (although given Aussie culture Australia will probably do all right).

Re:so what happens when...

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

No. I'm sure you wouldn't if you could prove that the image was changed later.

China has a population problem

[Anonymous Coward]

China has a policy of only one child per couple, as it has an overcrowding/population problem. This man could have bust the country at the seams with his actions, and should have in fact been publicly executed like they do to shop lifters.

MEEPT!!

Re:China has a population problem

[jamar0303]

Could you educate me on if this applies to expats (foreign nationals residing in China)? I know of some families here (Shanghai) that could be in big trouble if it is.

Re:China has a population problem

[fbjon]

Unlikely, it's probably only Chinese nationals. Anyway, you can have more than one child, but you need to pay a fee that increases per additional child. A 'child tax', if you will. It's not a strict one-child-only thing.

Re:China has a population problem

[sydneyfong]

I've been ranting on other posts about Hong Kong's autonomy from the rest of China, so I won't repeat this here.

I'll just state a fun fact: not long ago our Chief Executive (roughly equivalent to a mayor) started an extensive campaign to encourage couples to raise THREE kids because of the low birth rate (a common problem of most modern cities).

So no, no population problem here. It's a small place though, and I'll grant you that we do have some overcrowding problem in this dense city.

red car district?

[Anonymous Coward]

What? No car analogy? He willfully posted a link knowing were it went. No one held a gun to his head and made him post that link. He's being held accountable for his actions. In the adult world it's called being responsible.

Re:red car district?

[alexhard]

What? No car analogy? He willfully posted a link knowing were it went. No one held a gun to his head and made him post that link. He's being held accountable for his actions. In the adult world it's called being responsible. The question is not whether he posted a link or not, or why he did it..it is whether posting links should be illegal. Don't forget that the good old US of A has exactly the same kind of law, although instead of porn its copyrighted material.

Re:red car district?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's not about posting links. It's about posting a particular kind of link. And yes the US has a similiar law. It's called being an accessory to a crime. A rather strange notion for a nation of "it's the other guy's fault".

Re:red car district?

[arth1]

An Anonymous Coward wrote:

He willfully posted a link knowing were it went. No one held a gun to his head and made him post that link. He's being held accountable for his actions. In the adult world it's called being responsible.

So he should be held accountable if he had pointed the way to a church too, then? Both are considered harmful influences in China.
(And while I personally think churches are much more damaging than porn, I truly believe that pointing someone to either should not be a crime.)

One problem here that I see, and which I can't see any commenting on, is that this is Hong Kong. As part of the early take-over agreement, China was supposed to not impose full Chinese restrictions on Hong Kong. Are we seeing China starting to disregard this now? If so, it's worth catching the world's attention.

Re:red car district?

[IkeTo]

> One problem here that I see, and which I can't see any commenting on, is that this
> is Hong Kong.

But this is the actual problem. It is in HK. Hong Kong is probably the most conservative cities among all modern cities concerning public expression of any content slightly remotely related to sex, with the only exception being academic studies. It has nothing to do with returning to China, its people are very conservative. In fact, I consider it even more conservative than mainland China.

Ironically, at the same time it leads to proliferation of many magazines, supposingly with general audience, using sexually explicit titles or at times photos in their cover page to attract attention.

Re:red car district?

[falconwolf]

So he should be held accountable if he had pointed the way to a church too, then?

Not all religions, er churchs and other places of worship, are banned or illegal. Both Christianity and Islam are practiced, in the open, in China. While there is religious persecutions in China and the authorities discourage religion they haven't made it illegal.

As for TFA, it's ironic the newspaper the TFA comes from is in United Arab Emirates which bans porn. Like Iran and other countries, the UAE has banned Flicker because some photos are considered bad influences.

Falcon

Re:red car district?

[tombeard]

Well, if you post to a link on my site you might discover that the pretty butterfly you saw an hour ago is now goatse or anything else I might want to change it to. How is he responsible for my actions? How is he resopnsible for my site?

Re:red car district?

[superpulpsicle]

I have traveled to HK. They are pretty open about leaving porn magazines out in magazine stands uncovered from what I saw. They don't show much if anything on TV, but I wouldn't say they are "conservative". Go to some plaza where they sell video games and light porn posters are plastered all over the walls. This would never happen in any US malls.

Re:red car district?

[HTH NE1]

I can't define what constitutes a porn link, and I don't know it when I see it unless and until I click on it.

hmmm

[CdBee]

I can tell I've spent too long reading American websites. I saw the name "Woo" and my mind filled in the missing "Yay. Hoopla"

Re:hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

www.b3ta.com (where I believe that meme originated) is a British website.

Pron != Murder

[Nymz]

If I posted a link to hard-core snuff porn

That would be illegal because murder is illegal. If you were to dress up as Mickey Mouse and tell children to go out and kill for Allah, that would be bad because murder is bad, not Mickey Mouse. Though I could understand the confusion. :)

Re:Pron != Murder

[mikiN]

If you were to dress up as G.I.Joe and tell children to go out and kill for Jesus, that would be bad because murder is bad, not G.I.Joe. Though I could understand the confusion, more so if the G.I.Joe guy happens to be an Army recruitment officer.

Re:Pron != Murder

[Dragonslicer]

Army recruitment officers don't tell you to go out and kill for Jesus. Only politicians do that.

Re:Pron != Murder

[resonte]

Ah, you saw that video as well. Mickey mouse is a terrorist in disguise:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hcmHvczBGqg

Where would something like that happen...?

[julesh]

Can you imagine posting a link to a website that would get you arrested by the police?

Yes.

Re:Where would something like that happen...?

[lattyware]

What was really random, was I just read that article because of something completely unrelated. Weird.

Re:Where would something like that happen...?

[Oligonicella]

That would be getting arrested for disobeying a court order. Don't conflate, the context was getting arrested for a simple link (like, out of the blue), not for links explicitely cited by court.

Re:Where would something like that happen...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you Julesh for that insightful comment. Copyright is one of America's primary modes of censorship. Child porn is too. Add one word (child) to the story title and everyone in Amerika would be perfectly happy with the Chinese reaction. 14 year olds can and do have sex quite frequently folks... Mother nature gave them the ability to reproduce. Using that is ... wrong? According to whom? Your pastor? Your local politician? Whatever. There's a magic man in the clouds who takes us all to heaven, the world is flat, and evil witches ruined this year's crop with dances and spells. Or is the government simply tired of raising 'welfare babies.' You know... since most children of mothers under the age of 18 require government assistance... What the hell... Lock up the 15 year olds who need to be protected from predators like... themselves. I'm tired of this country. I'll be leaving it soon.

Nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

In Germany it was just confirmed in court that a person that runs a forum ("forii"?) can be held responsible for all posted content. Thus running a forum in Germany has been forbidden. ...but who cares. Since the "GEZ - the TV licence fees agency" unlawfully invented a monthly computer tax, because it could/would/can happen that someone accidently downloads from the Internet sites of public Television channels, Germans think twice before they buy a computer at all.

Re:Nothing new...

[Anonymous Coward]

forum ("forii"?)

The proper latin plural of "forum" is "fora".

Re:Nothing new...

[haraldm]

If you're German (if!) then you should think twice before starting to talk such rubbish in the public (I don't mind if you do this in your bathroom, though).

1. Most households already have a TV set before they buy a computer. In this case you are likely to pay the monthly fees already. The vast majority of private households is not affected by classifying computers as TV receivers. You don't pay twice. Nothing to write home about.

2. Running fora in Germany is not forbidden, even not de facto (and certainly not de jure). Otherwise heise.de would have had to close down already.

But I don't think you got the facts right to begin with.

Next time don't post anonymously, coward.

Ain't surprised.

[GomezAdams]

Remember this is in Communist China. The press loves to tell us that China is now post-communism since it allows citizens to own businesses. There is still only one political party there, they have very strict policies against just about everything. And very strict punishments for all the offenses. And anything can be considered a crime if you cross the local CCP representatives. There is very little of what most of the rest of the world consider to be basic personal rights allowed there. Sure they can earn and make more money than before but the economy is still centrally controlled and the government has it's hand in the till to build up it's military and maintain it. The People's Liberation Army is there to keep it's citizens in line (Tianamen Square), not to keep people out of the country who want to enjoy having their lives being controlled and being threatened with punishment for just about any action we take for granted. The Chinese do not have freedom of press, speech, religion, freedom to gather in groups unless it is approved, due process of law, and ownership of anything can be revoked by the Communist at any time for any reason.

Remember this when you buy all that cheap Chinese stuff at the stores that it is helping to maintain what is in fact a slave nation.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Watson Ladd]

They are not communist or socialist anymore. They are keeping the name, but betraying the principles. "From each according to ability, to each according to DEED" lasted for about 1 day after the revolution in China.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. Don't be fulled by the 'two governments, one China' policy. This guys arrest and similar cases are typical in the PRC.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

You haven't the faintest clue what Hong Kong is like. It makes me laugh every time someone refers to Hong Kong as communist.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because it is so much better to have two parties that are both essentially the same.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[nlitement]

Hong Kong is autonomous of China.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[erbmjw]

Not really -- they are in semi-autonomous Special Administrative Region of Hong Kong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_administrativ e_region_(People's_Republic_of_China)#High_degree_ of_autonomy

Currently, the two SARs of Hong Kong and Macau are responsible for all issues except acts of state like diplomatic relations and national defence: consequently, they have their own judiciaries and courts of final appeal, their own legislature, immigration policies, currencies and extradition processes. The pre-existing legal systems, namely common law in Hong Kong and Portuguese law in Macau, are preserved except consequential to establishment of courts of final appeal. With listed exceptions, national laws applying in the mainland do not apply in a SAR. These listed exceptions must involve diplomacy, national defence or something beyond the scope of the SAR's autonomy.

The laws of Hong Kong are based on a mixture of British law and Chinese law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_of_Hong_Kon g

IANAL --- but I did live in Hong Kong for a while trust me in Hong Kong you want to buy/rent/watch porn or go to a strip club to see naked women -- no significant problems.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[suv4x4]

Remember this is in Communist China.

Oh right, in Fascist America we beat 'em again by suing people for links as early as 2000, in a case related to our beloved DMCA.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have a beef with USA, but such remarks piss me off. The label doesn't mean a thing. Communist or Fascist or Democratic, actions speak more than words.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[emilv]

Communism and democracy is not each others opposites. You can very well have a communist country where you have your right to free speech, where you can choose your leaders and so on.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[watchingeyes]

Hong Kong is autonomous and seperately governed from the rest of China last time I checked. I believe it has its own legal system and everything.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[tksh]

No, this is not Communist China; this is bloody Hong Kong. You know, former colony and now special administrative region with its own law and mini-constitution, you know, based on British common law, you know, where courts swap judges with Australia on multi-year loans.

I know you have an axe to grind but this isn't the story for you to sneak it in. This is about a judge making a stupid decision and a lot of people in Hong Kong getting worried about the interpretation of old obscenity laws on modern circumstances. Let's talk about that instead OK?

Re:Ain't surprised.

[DrJokepu]

Communism and democracy is not each others opposites. You can very well have a communist country where you have your right to free speech, where you can choose your leaders and so on.

Well, we're yet to see an example...

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Oligonicella]

Yes, this can happen in print. In the real world, people who persue democracy are hardly willing to be told all of their work belong to gov and so would either not impliment actual communism or quickly dissassemble it.

It don't work. Marxists need to get over it.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[HungWeiLo]

And when you walk around the red-light district, you would see clients roll up in their Rolls Royces or Mercedes, and a kind gentlemen would go to all of them and cover up the license plates with a piece of velvet cloth while they are patronizing their favorite businesses.

Or so I was told.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember this is in Communist China. The press loves to tell us that China is now post-communism since it allows citizens to own businesses. Hong Kong has THE freest economy in the world, bar none.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/co untries.cfm

Re:Ain't surprised.

[pdwalker]

Actually, it is not Communist China.

HK still operates under the British system of courts and Common Law independently of the mainland's judicial system.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[iamacat]

Sweden, Japan, India... Many countries or provinces have or once had an elected socialist government.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[iamacat]

Do people enjoy being told that all their work, even their thoughts (intellectual property) belongs to a corporation, which in turn controls the politicians who pass laws to perpetuate this situation?

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the most moronic statement I've read on Slashdot all month.

Hong Kong is a seperate, autonomous state of China (and China itself isn't even communist anymore, but that's a seperate topic). Until 2047, it's using Britain's system of law.

Hong Kong is the freest economy in the world. It's pretty much the biggest finance centre in the world. It upholds free speech and British law. It is not "communist China".

Although this case is ludicrous and Hong Kong's government should be shamed for it.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[DrJokepu]

You know, there is a HUGE difference between a communist and a socialist government. Believe me, I had the chance to live under both.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[renoX]

>Remember this is in Communist China. The press loves to tell us that China is now post-communism since it allows citizens to own businesses.

And? Your post suggest that having the freedom to own business is the same as having freedom of press, speech, etc of course those are very different freedom.
So yes, China is post-communism, it is still a dictatorship governed by a kind of oligarchy.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Auxbuss]

Remember this is in Communist China. The press loves to tell us that China is now post-communism since it allows citizens to own businesses.

Since you raised the issue, when do you believe that it's not been possible to own your own business in HK? Because it's no more difficult than anywhere else.

There is still only one political party there

Well, no, they don't have democracy as most of us understand it, and the fight for universal suffrage continues, but there are healthy debates there about such things. For those of us viewing the US from afar since... ooh, I dunno, since the Bush cabal seized power, debate in HK puts the US to shame.

they have very strict policies against just about everything.

Such as?

I'm just back from a month in HK. My sister and family live there, and has done for fifteen years - since before the handover in 1997. I go most years around this time - it coincides with the fabulous Arts' Festival and the superb HK Rugby Sevens.

HK is not only one of the world's great cities, but, once you know it, an excellent place to work - 20% tax - and to raise a family.

And very strict punishments for all the offenses.

The law in HK is equivalent to elsewhere. You win some, you lose some.

And anything can be considered a crime if you cross the local CCP representatives.

You're in real bullshit territory now.

There is very little of what most of the rest of the world consider to be basic personal rights allowed there.

I've spent a lot of time in the US, but won't travel there these days because of the Draconian immigration policies. Beyond that, the vastly inflated sense of panic and the, frankly, scary reaction to events leaves me worried that I could lose my liberty in the US by a simple expression of a view - what the US used to regard as freedom of speech; what the rest of the world still regards as freedom of speech; I truly hope the US regains its senses soon.

In contrast, I am never fearful of such things in HK.

Sure they can earn and make more money than before but the economy is still centrally controlled and the government has it's hand in the till to build up it's military and maintain it.

You've always been able to make money in HK. And, move that money wherever you like on the planet. The taxes are very low.

Get this: this year, tax payers received a rebate from the government for overpayment of taxes last year. That's right, the government felt that it had taken too much tax last year and so is repaying the surplus.

As to your other comments: governments always own the economy; it's a core responsibility of any government.

The Chinese do not have freedom of press, speech, religion, freedom to gather in groups unless it is approved, due process of law, and ownership of anything can be revoked by the Communist at any time for any reason.

This is really not a true reflection of what happens in everyday life. The press is probably as free as elsewhere, but perhaps in a different way. If you read, say, the South China Morning Post, it's as critical as any other newspaper, and just as cynical about politics and power.

Remember this when you buy all that cheap Chinese stuff at the stores that it is helping to maintain what is in fact a slave nation.

This is bigotry underpinned by ignorance. You need to educate yourself, both about the world outside your borders, but more so about the world within them.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[iamacat]

Well, the ideological difference is supposed to be that under communism you get everything you need without currency, whereas under socialism you get a salary proportional to the amount of labor you perform. So basically, there never has been a communist country. The socialist one I used to lived in was pretty screwed up.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Remember this when you buy all that cheap Chinese stuff at the stores that it is helping to maintain what is in fact a slave nation." You're talking about Hong Kong? Hong Kong barely manufactures anything today and hasn't since the 1970s - most of the factories have moved to Shenzhen in mainland China. Today Hong Kong is pretty much the centre of the world's finance system.

Being the of the most important cities in the world of finance, it's full to the brim with international banks and corporations. I don't think it would be in the position it is in, if it was some kind of evil "communist slave nation!".

Infact it's (officially) the freest economy in the world, so they probably have more freedoms in Hong Kong (world's original free port + British law system) than you to in the US. In 40 years that might all change when it swithes to full Chinese rule, but right now it's fine.

But basically your post was one big troll, I'm guessing.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[GomezAdams]

The China Communist Party is the "administrator"of Hong Kong, ergo Hong Kong is controlled by communist. It was not a week into the return of Hong Kong that there were new school books supplied to children that had been ordered by the CCP. Apparent financial freedom is not the same as political freedom.

Re:Ain't surprised.

[sydneyfong]

It's pretty sad that people still get all emotional and jerky when they hear "China" and assume that everything related to "China" is communist, human rights degrading, under militarist rule, and so on.

Doubly so when Hong Kong gets accused of such sh!t. As others have posted, Hong Kong has a totally separate legal, political and economic system from mainland China, and the fact that you (and many others) couldn't grasp such an idea is a testimony to how much of a feat this is. Listen, after the handover from British colonial rule, we have arguably MORE rights than we ever had, and there is (as another poster have mentioned) a lively debate on how to get more of these rights.

So, no, this is not Communist China. This is not even "post-communism" because it was never practiced here EVER.

Hate China (and Hong Kong) as much as you want, but at least get your facts right.

[Disclaimer: I'm a Hong Kong resident]

Re:Third-hand links?

[Neeth]

No problem here, then.

Re:You don't control the other end of the link

[Anonymous Coward]

Much as this move was completely and utterly stupid, it has nothing to do with the Chinese government. Hong Kong's system is still safe and sound (mostly).

Very odd

[mister_tim]

I find this very odd - I didn't think that HK had such a strong stance on moral issues, particularly compared with the rest of China (which is very strict.

When I was in HK a couple of years ago, free weeekly magazines (which you could pick up in coffee shops, etc) carried columns with advice on personal issues, sex, how to get better oral sex from your partner, etc - it was quite explicit. I'm really surprised that posting a link to porn was such a major offence.

Re:Very odd

[some1somewhere]

Indeed the local magazines openly and freely sell sex all over the place in Hong Kong. Even the local non-shrink-wrapped magazines expose local celebs in their toilets, showers, etc., take pictures up their skirts during performances, etc. They also love discussing boob jobs, etc. and other stuff that would be immediately banned in China. Remember... half a MILLION (500,000) people in the past few years demonstrated IN THE STREETS against the local chief executive officer. They got him fired/out. Of course, they don't call it that (they don't call it impeachment like in the USA) but he was forced to stand down and be replaced BY CHINA. China considers Hong Kong to be special... somewhat like a testing ground for where it wants to be in maybe 10-20 years time with reforms. They're NOT trying to take it backwards, they're trying to move it forwards. They DON'T want chaos though. Considering there are 6-7 million people in Hong Kong (that includes babies, elderly ,etc.) 500,000 people is a LOT.

If the same thing happened within China, not only would this not be in the newspapers, half of them might be dead or in "re-education camps".

Remember, Hong Kong people LOVE and CHERISH their freedoms. The local press push the limits ALL the time, and some of the stuff they show in the OPEN magazines (the ones that little children can pickup and read at a 7-11 or corner shop) would certainly be banned in the USA and have people screaming "would you pluuuuuuease think of the children!!!".

Porn CDs/DVDs are freely sold all over the place in almost all the computer malls. It's not quite as blatant as before (when they literally opened stalls outside high schools), but it is certainly still there.

There are even "hooker guides" hosted RIGHT in Hong Kong like http://www.sex141.com/en/main.php and many more like that. If you don't know what it says, it even has ratings for each prostitute based on looks, skills, performance, etc., her location/map, etc. KEEP IN MIND prostitution is SUPPOSED to be illegal!!!

A lot of what they do in HK is just set examples of people... but they don't actively enforce the laws. Sure, if you step on the wrong toes and post up something like pictures of some big-wig in China with his mistress or something you'll be in trouble (I think that would apply nearly anywhere in the World though), but as long as you don't piss them off directly, you're pretty much free to do ANYTHING you want... quite literally, as you can see from the examples above. And that means usually even MORE freedoms that in the USA especially now.

Re:Very odd

[erbmjw]

The big problem I have with the article is that they did not tell us what forum he posted the links in.

While it might have been listed as an "adult" forum did that mean the Hong Kong adult forum equivalent of Good Housekeeping or Hustler? If he posted hardcore porn to the Good Housekeeping type of forum I can see a common law smack down being used against him based on HK decency/obscenity laws

Anyone know the name of the forum where he posted the links?

Re:Very odd

[some1somewhere]

Very good point... could it have been very hardcore porn, animal porn, or EVEN have underage porn on it?

Re:Very odd

[falconwolf]

The big problem I have with the article is that they did not tell us what forum he posted the links in.

Seeing as how the newspaper is located in the UAE, United Arab Emirates, where they've banned Flicker because of corrupting photos a link could not be included.

Falcon

Re:Very odd

[sydneyfong]

Here we have funny laws/regulations which had somehow been enacted at some point in history but nobody cares enough to look at/enforce them.

If you still remember, our courts convicted a guy posting some movie on a newsgroup using BitTorrent, and the specific clause relied upon for the conviction was some 100 year old provision that have not been used EVER until now. (By the way, I've heard the case is still on appeal, so keep your fingers crossed)

I'm guessing the abundance of these laws is because of the colonial history -- the legislature was appointed around the 1980s (IIRC), and it's pretty likely that what the law-makers had in mind was to make every potentially undesirable act an offense and leave it to law enforcement departments to decide whether to enforce the rules or not.

I mean, it's funny but technically you can be convicted of a (minor) offense if you bring musical players into our metro. Of course everybody brings iPods and whatnot around without any trouble at all, and nobody knows about the "ban" anyway. The obscenity laws are less obscure, but I guess either the govt wanted to make an example of the guy, or he pissed off somebody and that somebody went to the authorities. In the Hong Kong newspaper article by another poster above, it is claimed that the government acted pursuant to a complaint... I wonder what kind of people would complain somebody posting porn on a PORN FORUM unless he was pissed off or something.

Re:Very odd

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a porn forum.

Also in Japan

[Anonymous Coward]

Similar case also happens in Japan.
Two men were arrested and charged this month for operating a website of links to porn photographs, Japanese newspapers say.
(Sorry, no English reference found... an article in Japanese is here.)

Pornographic

[suv4x4]

So I'm reading the summary: why on earth we have a made up word for this kind of material.

'Pornographic photos'

First of all, can photos not be "graphic". Any "sonic photos" you've seen recently or something? So we're left with:

'Porn photos'

Why have a made up term for this "porn". Erotic photos seems descriptive enough. Sex photos if they're more explicit.
Is it because having a special term "porn" makes it sound more evil? "Pornographic" also sounds more scientific, something that could be written in a law.

Since going to jail for posting a link to "sexy photos" would be too absurd, but going to jail for "pornographic material" (OMG!) is just fine.

Re:Pornographic

[meringuoid]

It's Latin: 'porne' means a whore or harlot, so pictures of harlots are called pornography.

Re:Pornographic

[suv4x4]

It's Latin: 'porne' means a whore or harlot, so pictures of harlots are called pornography.

Do you call your dog by its official Latin scientific species name?
There's apparently a term in place that makes demonization of erotic photos easier.

It's similar with plenty of other conditions and events. People invent words to put a certain spin on them. There are special words for things that are a "sin" for example. A religious fellow will not tell you that being "gay" is a sin, but it's a sin since being gay means performing "sodomy". How often do we use "sodomy" in a casual conversation?

Re:Pornographic

[smallfries]

You'd be suprised. Down here in the Navy we talk about sodomy all the time. And those other mainstays of civilization; rum and the lash.

More seriously, language patterns have changed. This is quite a bad example as "Sod" and "sodomy" are not commonly used any more, but "bugger" is, or "anal". It just reflects language patterns of a couple of centuries ago. Which would be the rough timeframe of the "Rum, sodomy and the lash" quip.

Re:Pornographic

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the term comes from a greek word, pornae (or something), that basically means anything sexual that is not in a matrimonial relationship. I'll leave you to look up the details.

Re:Pornographic

[dotbenjamin]

What's the point for the term "porn", you ask?

If we used the word sex photos, then what about scat porn? Or anal porn? Or gay porn? Or BDSM porn? Or any of thousands of other fetishes? The point of the word porn is to get an overarching umbrella to cover the entire assortment of photographs, movies and literature related to any number of fetishes. It's not just a stupid word - it's a word we use to categorize a huge amount of incredibly diverse material.

Re:Pornographic

[pjt33]

The word "pornography" predates photos - and etymologically it's about text rather than images.

Re:Ain't surprised.: Not Informative - Incorrect

[erbmjw]

I don't want to type it out again so http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=234461&thr eshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=19094737#19 094947

Porn and birth rate

[suv4x4]

China's government apparently doesn't realize they are causing a problem on themselves.

Why spend all the resources to restrict people from viewing porn? So you can then spend all the resources to reduce birth rate.

Look at the other modern democratic countries: you can watch all the porn you want, and birth rate is so low that most of said countries rely on excessive immigration to keep the population numbers stable.

There's gotta be a connection here somewhere...

Re:Porn and birth rate

[IkeTo]

What a billiant example of Slashdotters who don't know the topics he post on. Please point your browser at the following and read the first two paragraph:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hong_ Kong

What do you think about it? 0.9? It's less than 1, meaning at least 1 in 10 couples never give birth to any children in their whole life span, the number is likely much more since there are couples giving birth to more than one! According to your theory, now Hong Kong should start criminalizing all porns, so that the people has to "do" it rather than "watch" it, and accidentally give birth to children? (According to recent survey, around 40% of people in Hong Kong who did give birth to children *regret* about it!)

Re:Porn and birth rate

[hackingbear]

Birth rate relates to porn? What a ridiculous new theory!

High birth rate is the result of poverty, low education, and, in China, the must-have-male-offsprings-or-damned-by-ancestors traditions.

In fact, in modern Chinese cities, the birth rate has been dropping; in Shanghai, it is about below 1.

Re:Porn and birth rate

[suv4x4]

What a billiant example of Slashdotters who don't know the topics he post on.

Billiant? I learn a new word every day. The post is a joke, as such, it can't be considered a reliable source of information. Just like you don't go to The Onion for advice on the actual world news, I suppose.

Please point your browser at the following and read the first two paragraph:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Hong_ Kong

I tried to point my browser, but it's really tricky. Can't I just click the link?

Re:Porn and birth rate

[falconwolf]

Look at the other modern democratic countries: you can watch all the porn you want, and birth rate is so low that most of said countries rely on excessive immigration to keep the population numbers stable.

The birthrates in developed countries is low because they are developed not because they allow porn. A nation's birthrate is inversely related to the socio-economic situation of the people. As people enjoy more freedom especially women, ie women's sufferage, they tend to have less children. Raise the amount they earn, and therefore their economic status, and brithrates will drop more. The two most populus nations in the world, China and India, are both seeing a drop in child birth rates because both have improved both social and economic status of many of the people living there. I haven't seen data as it relates to India but studies of the Chinese population forcast that by 2050 there will more retired people than there are workers.

Falcon

And in Japan...

[oddmake]

Osaka Poice arrests two guys,because they show URLs of pedophilistic websites at their own website.

Though I have no love for pedophiles,and strongly oppose child abuse...I doubt this arrest is "correct".
We discussed about this case recently

Hong Kon has laws??!?!!!!!

[PHAEDRU5]

Oy! In other news, you can buy pizza in Italy.

Re:Hong Kon has laws??!?!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone mod this guy troll.

Yes of course Hong Kong has laws, otherwise it wouldn't be the world's freest economy and international banking centre.

Very important detail

[billcopc]

Did anyone notice the guy posted on an adult board to begin with ? So in Hong Kong, theoretically speaking if you're in a sex shop and you point out one of your favorite DVDs to another customer, would they toss you in the slammer ?

Translation

[thepotoo]

I did a Google translation of your post from Slashdotter to English, and got this:

Speaking as Slashdot reader, I can safely say that I am offended by goatse and extremests.

However, I love porn. I really like it. Like alot.

So much so that I quit living in my mom's basement to try and make it as a an adult site webmaster. Traffic has been a little slow lately, so could a few of you stop by my site?

I kid, I kid. Seriously, you made some good points.

Not exactly

[djupedal]

"...heavily fined for posting a porn link in an adult discussion forum."

5000 HongKong dollars equals approx. $650.00 us dollars. Just a shade more than double that of a parking ticket. By HK standards, at least, this is not a 'heavy fine'.

Re:You don't control the other end of the link

[robinesque]

I think you meant:
1) Post a link to some (harmless) page
2) Owner of that page changes it to something the Chinese government considers non-harmless
3) You get arrested
4) ?????
5) Profit!

Thats crazy

[JustNiz]

You're only posting a link (i.e. saying where to get illegal content) you've got no control over or responsibility for the content itself.
Is it illegal in Hong Kong just to tell someone where illegal goods are sold? It amounts to the same thing...

This stupid verdict sets the precedent that anyone sharing a link accepts legal responsibility for all the content. This itself is unworkable. Imagine what happens if you publish a link on a forum to a foreign website that only contains content that is legally acceptable at the time, but unknowingly to you, the criteria for legal acceptability changes or the website itself adds some 'illegal' content? Are you guilty by proxy? You might not even know but even if you did, forums don't usually allow you to erase your own old posts.

Link to link

[Unicorn Setu]

If a link to porn is illegal, how about a link to a link to porn? If that's illegal, then a link-to-a-link-to-a-link etc. Eventually any link becomes illegal, probably. Is there a way to get from any site to any other only by clicking on links? Probably.

09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B

[Anonymous Coward]

In the U.S. we can't talk about copy protection. In Hong Kong they can't talk about porn.

So if you had to give up one, which would it be: warez or pr0n?

Re:09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B

[Grimbleton]

I don't need pr0n to fap.

Would it also be a crime to ....

[rewinn]

...post the link that got the guy arrested?

It seems to me that in a forum where adults discuss the case, the answer "should be" no but in a forum where children come to play, the answer "should be" yes.

There's many practical problems with making these distinctions, and no doubt repressive governments get it wrong all the time, but as a general principle what's the difference between publishing a photo and publishing a link to the photo?

This creates an interesting extortion option

[RareButSeriousSideEf]

This requires an internet-using & participating patsy, of course, plus a partner to "witness" target's online postings...

• Step 1: Monitor target's posting and linking habits;
• Step 2: Create or steal volumes of innocuous content designed to attract said target;
• Step 3: Take technical measures to prevent content caching;
• Step 4: Monitor HTTP referrers until target takes bait;
• Step 5: Swap innocuous linked content with incestuous hermaphrodite siamese-twin midget goat porn;
• Step 6: Profit!

Local news and the forum in question

[francium de neobie]

If you can read Chinese, here is the local news entry:
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/070510/12/276r4.html

The forum in question was inside the adult section of Uwants. There used to be a forum there that focuses on adult pictures, but that particular forum has been removed since the incident.

providing links to porn

[falconwolf]

In the story, the man offered information that nobody asked for

I have to ask because TFA doesn't say, so how do you know if no one asked for the links? Are you a member of the forum?

the the information made the provocative material very accessible

Being on the net, it's already readily accessible. Now whether it can be easily found is another matter, but obviously the person who posted the links found them.

People didn't ask for it

Again, how do you know no one asked for it?

Falcon

Re:providing links to porn

[a.d.trick]

Good point, I should be more careful in the future. However, there's still a significant difference between answering such a question in private and answering it in a public forum.

American public attitudes on sex

[falconwolf]

God, what is it with you americans and sex. Why is it dangerous to see two people have sex, but it is perfectly OK to see people be beaten up, maimed and killed??>

Because there is a vocal minority of prudes and Christian Talibans. Much like what they do to people that have sex outside of marriage in Iran, there are some Christians who want to stone people to death for having any sex outside of heterosexual sex in marriage.

I don't know how repressed you were as a kid, but when I grew up, 10 year olds were reading pr0n on paper. They were just curious and it would not make the world better to arrest them for a criminal offence, just because the pr0n is on DVDs.

At the same age, my mom gave me issues of "Playboy".

Falcon

hate speech

[falconwolf]

Hate sites should be legal. As much as despise whats spouted, I believe in freedom of speech

ie, "while I disagree and hate what you say, I defend your right to say it." Instead of oulawing hate speech it needs to be countered with facts.

Falcon

What about those little tour guide booklets?

[hackingbear]

On the streets of Hong Kong, you can buy tour guide booklets on where to find (affordable) prostitutes in Shenzhen, the city across the border in mainland China. I've never heard anyone selling those got arrest. and I recommend you get one next you visit there.

Remember this is in Communist China.

[falconwolf]

The press loves to tell us that China is now post-communism since it allows citizens to own businesses. There is still only one political party there, they have very strict policies against just about everything

Ah but China is post communist seeing as how communism is an economic system wherein the state owns all property and businesses and controls the markets. However China never was Marxist, which is political as well as economic, as Marxism focused on industrial workers whereas Mao and the Chicoms focused on peasants, farmers and farm workers.

Falcon

Ne how,
Ne how ma?

where is the link?

[dominious]

In Hong Kong, a middle-age man has been heavily fined for posting a porn link in an adult discussion forum. can we see the link so we can judge?

harmless!

[x78]

What if someone posts a link to a webpage which is perfectly harmless, then the next day the webmaster replaces the webpage with hardcore porn.

Of course nobody believes that the "someone" posted an innocent link and so FINED..?

Re:Chinese morality

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, and you say you live here? Secession isn't "freedom" here. Hong Kong isn't half close to being self-sufficient, and "independence" would mean nothing but trouble. Why would we want that anyway? Hong Kong is autonomous as could possibly be, and while you're at it, why don't you advocate secession for cities like New York?

You sound like you come from Uncle Sam. No, not everyone in the world has this urge to tell their mother country to go fsck herself like your predecessors did.