Slashdot Mirror
Halo 3 Beta Impressions
Yesterday in New York City Microsoft held an invite-only preview of the Halo 3 Beta, and passed out early Beta keys to a group of game journalists. The result is a barrage of coverage about this most-anticipated title. Notable features beyond basic previews include Dan Hsu's take on the game, Dean Takahashi's 'I got my butt kicked' perspective, the San Jose Merc's interview with Bungie Community Lead Brian Jarrad, CVG's hosting of the official Beta Movie, and Joystiq's interview with Frank O'Connor, Bungie's writing lead. From the 1up preview: "It's unmistakably Halo gameplay, despite the rearranged controls (which feel natural after 10 minutes), and all of the additions fit perfectly into the multiplayer universe we've come to love. The interface has been overhauled and is even easier to use, and you now have such niceties as being able to change your control layout at any point on any screen. While the visuals are rich and beautiful, it's the audio that's really impressed us so far. The rumbling throttle of unleashing dual SMGs makes them feel incredibly powerful, and the Spartan Laser tearing past your head is as scary as you'd imagine. Audio cues are more important than ever, and the better your sound system the more next-gen this will feel." More coverage below.
I hope the story is damn great, because the visuals don't look all that interesting, and under a barrage of some truly great titles coming to the PC it'll be tough.
"Oh boy"
Halo3 three will include a variety of "Chair Weapons":
* A Wooden Chair in which you can break and stab and lacerate people
* A Ikea Chair in which the recipient simply throws the left over peices at any attacker
* An Executive Leather Chair in which the attacker simply places their opponent in the chair and spins it, until the opponent passes out.
* And the classic "Operator Chair" which is simply picked up and thrown.
The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. - HGTTG
Now, instead of hearing 12 year olds scream in joy when they frag me, I will here their shrill wails in 5.1
Oh joyous day.
You know, I'm really sick of this particular criticism of console FPS games. The game was designed around a controller. It plays perfectly fine with it. Everyone else playing is using the same input device, there is no need for a keyboard / mouse. Remember the first time you ever used a keyboard / mouse to play an FPS? I'll bet it didn't seem intuitive at all, but with practice you got used to it, and then, proficient with it. Console FPS' are the same way now. Once you've sat down and played a while you don't even think about it. Lately I've been playing a lot of FPS titles on my 360 (Battlefield 2: MC, Call of Duty 2 / 3, Halo 2) and I don't even notice the controller.
PC gamers really, really need to stop this particular line of eliteism. A gamer is a gamer whether or not he is playing HL2 on a PC or Bioshock on his Xbox 360.
- "Scientia non habet inimicum nisp ignorantem"
But I have played Gears of War. Quite a bit, it's almost my favorite game now. How does Halo compare to Gears?
It is a beta after all. If you criticize things to try to make it better you will never be banned. If you bash and criticize to troll the other players then I would hope pretty quick.
If you play Halo and the only thing you can say the whole time is "this game sucks" then why play? There are so many other great games why waste your time?
Swi
On a less sarcastic note, you're wrong. You like dual analog? Power to you. I've been trying to use it for months now. Still hate it, still suck terribly without my mouse. I think the best thing would be a mouse for aiming and an analog stick for movement. I'm also interested in how well the Wii controls will turn out.Mmm, true. But then I turned off look inversion, and it was perfect.
I tried playing Gears of War at a friend's place using the controller. I moved around like a drunken sailor. True, the first time I played with a mouse (mouse-look in Quake, I think it was) I wasn't very good, but not as bad at this.
I'm sure I'll improve given enough practice. Until then it's kinda hard to justify dropping cash on a product that you can't even use well. Note that I'm a pretty casual player (the sort who struggles with midrange-skill bots), so the motivation to spend a lot of time learning a new system doesn't exist. But I do like the premise of games like Gears of War, Halo 3 and Mass Effect, and would play them if I could.
I'm probably not in Microsoft's target market for the XBox 360. But I wonder why they're so against offering customers more choice and increasing their market share in the process. Are they scared that a keyboard/mouse enabled XBox will cause a gamers' migration from their bread-and-butter Windows platform?
Go somewhere random
Don't forget RE4. On the PC it just wouldn't play half as well as on the Cube. The game was designed for the controller and it's done to near perfection when the PC port is ment to be terrible to the point of unplayable.
For the sake of questioning your logic. Is someone playing solitaire a gamer or not? Because your logic seems to imply -any- game playing makes you a gamer. Where as IMO a gamer is someone who invests some time in games and is involved in the future. The same way anyone can spend time on a PC, but most -real- geeks invest a massive amount of time in the community and on their PCs (which is usually the same thing in effect).
I like muppets.
ahhhh....I've found out only the spacially gifted use look inversion.
Maybe that's why you can't cut it with the dual analog.........=P
Money is the root of all evil?
Audio cues are more important than ever, and the better your sound system the more next-gen this will feel.
That's kinda why I'm particular to PC gaming. A good pair of headphones is all you need to hear those 'audio cues' and lacking that, anything above 2 speakers is gravy since most games ship with decent sound engines for realistic 3d sound.
Your hair look like poop, Bob! - Wanker.
The textures are low quality right now to save on download bandwidth for the beta stage.
I guess emphasis of this beta is eliminate game play bugs and any irritants not stressing the graphics subsystem.
The final game is supposed to be of much higher quality.
It's just the new Goldeneye. As with the old one, it sold a lot on consoles and PC users didn't understand. A lot of people just don't play PC games and aren't exposed to FPSes, so when one comes along on consoles it's interesting. Look at PCs, circa 1993-95 they were coming out the wazoo and everything was exciting. People actually cared about games like Ken's Labyrinth. Same thing here except in the context of consoles. Still, hopefully the consoles will still have some original games and it won't be all 99% FPS/RTS/CRPG like on PC... which, incidentally, is why consoles are seeing a surge in popularity and PC gaming is declining nowadays.
Even with the facts behind you, you do not account for the "Frat Boy" market. Halo 3 will be a smash hit on name recognition alone.
WRONG - being immediatly obvious and intuitive is why FPS games on the PC are so popular.
flame on! I hate trying to play an FPS with a controller. I always hear the same story "after 10min it's totally natural" - B.S! I've played for hours and it only gets more frustrating as the action heats up and the controller is this obstacle between you and the kills! Lets get a mouse for the xbox already! What the hell??!
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
Oh.
Looks like somebody's got the red ring.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
I have this for you!
Man I cannot understand the long time FPS players. Most people who complain about joypad have been using mouse and keyboard for ages... they do not even notice they are used to play with those. Of course it's easier with your mouse and keyboard, you've been playing with this duo for ages. I mean, I've been playing Rocket Arena for years, of course I handle my mouse and keyboard better than this Xbox 360 joypad I've had for 3 months. I was playing like shit when I began playing FPS on PC. Now I am far better. A friend of mine was used to play FPS on PS2 for months and told me he could not think of using a mouse and a keyboard to play these... The point is that the joypad is not better or worse than your pc set, you just become accustomed to one or the other. I am not used to the 360 pads but these are damn great and precise. I've played Doom 3, Lost Planet and I come to like this setup. So come on, let's end this pointless battle. The only advantage that may have the mouse is that it can be used more often than a gamepad, for other uses, so that you can perhaps have lenghtier training.
Stupidity is the root of all evil.
I don't care what input device you use.
I do care that MicroSquish does not service the keyboard/mouse gamers by not enabling a USB/driver package for those of us more comfortable with those devices. Dammit.
Help me with the logic here: Does MicroSquish think they are going to lose PC/Vista sales to the XBox360 if they enable mouse/keyboard support? I can't see it. While writing a driver for USB input conversion from mouse/keyboard to gamepad may not be trivial, it couldn't be that large of a resource gobbler. The XBox is just not a replacement to the homePC.
I am part of a large segment of the market that has found gameplay to be frustrating on the gamepad and have either had unsatisfactory gaming experiences (which stops gaming purchases in their tracks) -or- not purchased the games/XBox360 at all. Why does MS intentionally cut off potential revenue? Gears of War and Halo3 look great! (I was at the Beta preview last night) But being pissed off with the input device spoiled my experience with them.
You know I agree with some of what you're saying. I was originally going to post something similar but figured the GP would get modded flamebait (which he should have been modded). But since you opened the discussion...
I'm a gamer that does both PC and console. I really hate this stupid debate. PC gamers should just stfu and play with their mouse and keyboard and console players should do the same and play with their thumb sticks. Halo was designed for the console* and so were the controls. However, to say both control schemes are equal is wrong. I know I'm much better with a mouse and keyboard and I know why. Since you can't exactly pick up the thumb stick and put it back in the middle when it goes over the edge its input is considerably different than a mouse. When you move a thumb stick to the far right your character spins around until you let go and the stick auto-centers itself. If you put your mouse on the right edge of your mouse pad then you look to the right a bit and that's that. You know how PC games usually have a key binding to turn left and right (yaw)? Well imagine if they added two more to look up and down (pitch). This is the control scheme that a console controller achieves**. Now notice how few PC gamers use these key bindings.
What I seem to notice on console*** is that people put their crosshair in a particular place and then use their left thumb stick to align the shot with the enemy player and only make minor adjustments with their right thumb stick. On PC I most certainly wouldn't do this. When it comes to close quarter combat it gets a lot more difficult to control as the accuracy just isn't there. As I said earlier I doubt any PC gamer would use four separate keys to control pitch and yaw. I also notice that most PC gamers tend to be at least casual console players while the reverse usually isn't true. I'd go deeper into the subject but I think you get the point.
You're free to disagree of course but that's how I see it. Both control schemes have pros and cons. For instance I hate picking my mouse up or what usually happens is it runs into my keyboard or computer case since my desk is small. That means I miss a kill or die or both. I also don't like playing ROMs on the PC that much, the controller was always better for those games. The playing field is not even and both PC and console gamers just need to accept that.
* Technically it was designed for the PC and Mac but I guess that's a bit too technical.
** Almost achieves anyway. Console controllers have to have active resistance on the thumb sticks so they auto-center which takes more getting used to.
*** I don't know any Halo gods so my observation may be wrong in the higher tiers of Halo gameplay.
No, we really, really do NOT need to stop explaining why it's impossible to play an FPS with a console controller.
Well that's just flat out wrong. This story is about people playing Halo. They were doing it with console controllers. Halo is an FPS. There for, playing an FPS on a controller is clearly possible. You might think a keyboard and mouse is better, that hardly means that using a controller is impossible.
Now lots of people play FPSs on consoles, and they seem to be enjoying themselves, so I don't think theres anything wrong with using a controller. I do think using a keyboard and mouse is better, if by better we mean provides faster response times. In any multiplayer game, where half the players were using K/M and half controllers, the K/M guys would win every time, all other things being equal.
On the other hand, I think controllers have some advantages over K/M. My consoles are all in my living room, and I play games sitting on my couch. I don't have a desk in front of my TV, so there's nowhere to put a K/M. Try balancing a keyboard on your lap and running you mouse on the cushion next to you. Comfortable? Thought not. I also prefer a thumbstick to WASD.
But really, why does it matter? As the OP said, why do we have to keep having this stupid argument? You like the K/M, dislike the controller. OP likes controllers. I'm happy with either. Why does each side feel the need to not only say "I like x" but to also insist "because y is inferior"? I feel like I'm back in the playground arguing about C64s and Spectrums.
Which you obviously do not know, because *you* *are* *not* *a* *gamer*. Deal with it.
AH, so you are the final arbiter of who is and isn't a gamer? Wow. Am I a gamer? I've been playing video games for twenty years, but I like some console FPSs, so I might fail your test. Perhaps you mean he isn't a PC gamer? Are PC gamers the one true gamer clan, to whom all others are inferior? Are those who are unwilling or unable to drop stupid amounts of cash on new graphics cards and processors supposed to keep quiet and never offer an opinion? Should they just kneel in supplication and reverence before their PC gaming overlords?
if you dislike us so much, as you say, then why the hell do you strive to be just like us?
I'm not even sure what this means? Where exactly did he say he was trying to be like you?
Oh, just FYI, the first time I played Doom, I used a joypad (yes PAD! not even a joystick), because I hated the keyboard and mouse so much. It was a lot easier back then, since there was no looking up or down. I didn't start using the K/M till quake came out.
"I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
Where as IMO a gamer is someone who invests some time in games and is involved in the future.
Explain what you mean by 'is involved in the future', please. I know you don't mean either a time traveler or a developer, but I'm having a tough time figuring out what else you could mean.
-- toolie
...When Epic already did it for them?
Calling someone's opinion wrong. I thought all Slashdotters were supposed to be intelligent.
You're definitely new here, aren't you?
-- toolie
Do you ever wish you'd been bought by Apple instead?
Serious question.
Horns are really just a broken halo.
...a beta preview? What's next? This just in, Bungie had an idea, preview it next week...
As far as the actual content goes, I didn't notice anything huge. New levels, a new gun or two, and a few new vehicles(it really bugs me that the little 4-wheeler thing looks so much like a shrunk warthog too) but the graphics didn't really look all that much better.
What games like Halo *really* need is an add-on FOOT PEDAL for Melee attacks. Duke Nukem approves. :b
.
== WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
It's dyslexic 'community'.
I didn't catch it til after I posted.
I like muppets.
The betas are to test the gameplay (particularly wrt to multiplayer, new weapons). I would be extremely surprised if the released game doesn't look significantly different than the betas. It makes sense to keep the 'wow' factor as secret as possible until the release. Otherwise game reviewers will won't have much new to praise before release.
Calling them "MicroSquish" makes you sound a lot worse than it makes Microsoft sound. Try for a little more flow in your derogatory names. Just appending some random word doesn't really work.
Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
They each have their benefits. Saying either side is the best is just a pointless debate. Having played EXTENSIVELY on both setups I feel I'm qualified to enlighten you on 4 pros and cons of each. Since I'm reading mostly PC gamer hate I'll start with PCs so that they can see why people play console games it isn't arcane at all.
PC Gaming:
Pros
1. A Mouse makes a very intuitive and sensitive device to aim with, there are a variety of them to use so you can pick the one that works the best for you. You use it while your using the computer so you become very accustom to it.
2. A Keyboard offers a virtually limitless medium for configuration. Keyboards come in different shapes and sizes and even can be purchased specifically designed for the game your using.
3. The graphics are unparralleled. The latest greatest hardware always shows up in PCs first and the graphics truely show that.
4. PCs are used for far more then just games so it is easier to convince your spouse, parent, or self to buy.
Cons
1. All PCs are not created equal. In competitive and even advanced gaming it is clear that there is always an edge to the gamer with the best hardware. Even to build your own really good PC, not the best, your talking a $2000 a price of entry FAR higher then console gaming. While this is not necessarily a consideration for casual gamers it is frustrating to know that your computer may be what is holding you back.
2. The keyboard's single greatest strengh, configurability, is also its greatest weakness. Learning to play on a standard keyboard is not pretty for a new gamer. The buttons you press have little to no corelation between the action the game takes and learning which buttons do what can be very frustrating. The buttons are often not oriented in an easy to press intuitive manner and require some skill to master and time to learn. Buying a keyboard specifically designed for gaming can make learning easier and button placement more intuitive, but setup on those controllers, depending on game, can sometimes take hours.
3. Graphics are designed to be bleading edge in most games; in order to stay up with the graphics, you need to upgrade hardware at least every 2 years, depending on how much you spend on it. PC games made the graphics card market what it is and the games are usually designed around the latest greatest with the ability to play pretty well on moderate hardware. PC gaming can be VERY expensive. Low frame rates in a game can kill the experience completely.
4. PCs are used for other things and this con sometimes lead to annoyances for gaming. Other people in the house might need to use the computer, you might get viruses or other things that slow it down, sometimes applications that are running in the background can have a dramatic effect on performance, and because the platform is open PC games are a much more attractive market for cheaters.
Console Gaming
Pros
1. Entry cost is relatively low when compared to PCs and you don't have to upgrade for usually 5 years.
2. Everyone plays on the same hardware. Every console is pretty much the same, making for a far more level playing field. The software was designed for the hardware. Because every console is the same and every controller is the same, games are designed ground up to maximize that piece of hardware and gameplay is designed to be intuitive for the controller.
3. Multiple people can play on the same piece of hardware, making it a far more social gaming device. It is much better to see the expression on your friends face when he gets taken out then to hear about it over voice communication.
4. The community the hardware the online experience is all closed. Typically leading to a much more secure gaming environment.
Cons
1. The hardware isn't as good as PCs can be. You are limited to the hardware the console company can afford to put in there rather then what you can afford to buy. You don't get the cutting edge graphics that you do on PCs and until recently the
It's not really a big deal, it's just been marketed as such in North America when in reality it's just another generic FPS on a system that is flooded with shooters and not much else.
Okay... look at this halo 3 gameplay trailer : http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=19430&ty pe=wmv and tell me why the hell the player is unable to hit most targets that are a couple of meters away and only slowly moving? At one point he even shoots around in confusion because he can't track the enemy at a sufficient speed. I realise the game has been designed with this in mind (e.g. missing a lot, forgiving collision detection, wide area weapons) but it just takes the point away from fps. The nice thing about keyboard/mouse control is the smoothness with which the two devices combine their motion (other than the curled up fingers and the resulting pain from the wsad keys... a technical hurdle that could easily be solved with a special device for your keyboard hand sporting a couple of buttons and an intuitive direction control). Take a look at some counterstrike demos and appreciate the difference.
Why exactly should I have been modded flamebait? I didn't say "wake me when there's a K/M... and all you people that like controller input are douchebags." All it meant was that I personally am not interested in console FPS until they offer a K/M option. It's the first response to my post that copped a flamebait attitude, and of course in typical Slashdot fashion got +5'd.
TFC? Ha! The original TeamFortress (the Quake mod, not the Half-Life mod) had two buttons for grenades, as each class had two grenade types. Kids these days, thinking TFC was the origin of TeamFortress. The 'C' stands for "Classic" for a reason, you know.
Call of Duty (2003) was two years after Halo 1 (2001). I have no idea what Iron Grip is. As best I can tell, it's a mod for Half-Life 2 which automatically puts it after the launch of Halo 1. Other games had melee (Quake, Doom, Half-Life), but you had to switch weapons rather than just hit a button to attack.
True, but most older games tended towards checkpoints too far apart, and requiring user intervention to actually save (if you aren't paying attention, tough crap. It's another two hours to the next save point). Halo made it automatic.
I'm surprised the original poster didn't point out probably the biggest innovation in Halo 1 that has been copied over and over since -- regenerating shields. Without your shields, 1-2 shots will kill you, so you shields are essentially the same thing as health in Doom, Quake, Half-Life, etc. The difference is that rather than having to hunt around for pickups to regenerate, you just have to hide. Totally changes the dynamic for multiplayer games, because it forces you into tactical situations. Previously, you'd think, "I'm low on health and there's no way I'll find enough to keep me alive for a few more kills. Therefore, I'll just rush the next guy I see in order to do some damage before I'm taken out." Halo changed that to, "Do I hide and regen my armor, or do I attack and prevent my enemy from regenerating his armor?"
Yes. Yes I do.
1&1 - Cheap domain and web hosting.
While the multiplayer in this multiplayer beta test exhibits typical Halo levels of excellence, the single player was significantly lacking. The single player consists of no AI, no objectives, and is played on the same maps as the multiplayer levels. While some fun can be had running around in circles, we find it hard to justify the purchase price compared to games that offer hours of interaction and direction.
Halo 3 Multiplayer Beta Test:
Graphics: 9
Halo isn't Gears of War; Get over it. It still looks great.
Sound: 10
Heartstopping.
Multiplayer: 10
It's Halo.
Singleplayer: 2
Strangely neglected.
Overall 5/10
Excellent online play, but most gamers will have a hard time finding value in the single player experience.
It may be more inaccurate with a controller, but at least it's comfortable. Keyboard and mouse is completely unergonomic, and WASD must be the most braindead control scheme ever invented, I don't think it could be any more awkward, having to use one finger for two keys above each other means you can't even rest your hand.
Windows live will allow PC halo gamers and Xbox halo gamers to compete on the same servers against each other. That will show us which type of controller configuration is best for playing FPS. If PC players dominate the charts, then we'll know that mouse-keyboard is superior, or better FPS players prefer it. If the charts are evenly distributed, then we can say it doesn't matter.
I welcome our new 99% overlords.
Oi! I was making more of a point about open file types than anything....
I don't really care if VLC can play WMV or not....I will not use WMV.
guess I won't watch the vid then if I can't get it in an agreeable format.
Money is the root of all evil?
I'll tell you why. Because he's not very good.
I could also show you some Counterstrike demos of some 12 year old flailing madly across the map and say "See? Keyboards suck!" but that doesn't really prove a point does it? Watch someone who's good Halo and you'll see a different story.
After watching that guy play I'm pretty confident that me (or anyone I play with) would treat that guy like target practice, not an opponent. And I would just classify myself as just a "competent" Halo player, not "good."
You'll find different control schemes better for different environments, and that skill (not the lack of a mouse) is the contributing factor to the gameplay you'll observe in many beta videos. Want to see what the console controller can do? Go and find out.
Are you even a potential customer for the game then? It itself is in a proprietary format, and contains proprietary formatted videos.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
I know your trolling, but I'd just like to point out these fun facts:
r -hit-4-million-244018.php
M an#Critical_Reception
o n
3 Million PS3s sold -- not copies of Resistance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation_3
3 to 4 million copies of Gears of War sold
http://kotaku.com/gaming/neogaf/rumor-gears-of-wa
I haven't played it, but apparently Resistance is a good game which was well received:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance:_Fall_of_
Unfortunately for your argument, Gears was much moreso:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gears_of_War#Recepti
http://brandonbloom.name
Why yes I am considering buying the game.
Hypocritical? I don't think so. I'll pay for good games, movies and music.
I won't get sucked into vendor lock-in and feed a monopoly just for a freely
distributed video clip. I think if more people thought the same way open
standards would be further ahead and there would be more games on Linux
and BSD. But I can't make you think anything, so I why bother debating.
Money is the root of all evil?
5.1 sound lets you tell whether someone is sneaking up behind you, or about to jump out from around that corner you're approaching. And don't try and tell me your headphones are 3D :)
You don't consider somebody a gamer unless they are involved in the community? I know a quite a few people I would consider hardcore gamers that specifically avoid some of the communities in the games they play. I couldn't imagine trying to be involved in the community of something like WoW (don't play it) or Counterstrike (don't play that either) after hearing the horror stories that come out about the forums and the online chat.
I don't think being involved in the community of a game is what makes somebody a gamer. Its more than that.
-- toolie
ah, community may of been the wrong word. People who play a couple of hours a week and don't much care or have any real passion, to me aren't gamers. Where as someone who has a passion for games will follow sites and such and be part of the community in that sense.
I worded it wrongly, but it is a passion thing which leads you to do more than just play the odd game and hence be involved in a larger thing (aka a community).
I like muppets.
The main difference between a joystick/pad and a mouse is not a question of ergonomics or resistance. The quantity being controlled by the mouse in a FPS is the angular position of the line of sight. Using a mouse, there is only a gain between the mouse position and the angular position of the LOS. Thus, the control is direct.
Using a joystick, pad, or keyboard, the player controls the rate of change (i.e. speed) of the LOS movement (and with non-analog controls, even that is fixed, the player only controls when to start and stop moving). Thus, there is an integrator in the control loop. An integrator is a low-pass filter, and it is impossible for a human to react as quickly with such an indirect control.
It is indeed possible to play using both schemes, but the gameplay just cannot be the same. It's just a question of choice. For a direct control scheme, if you don't want to wave your arm all around you, you need a way to interrupt the input while you reset the controller. This is what we do when we lift the mouse at the end of the mouse pad to put it back at the other end to continue the movement. This is much harder to implement in a console controller.
Not to redundafy replies but I can't let this pass without some hassle from me. Analog sticks for looking around require you to, in effect, accelerate your face, steer your face like an airplane, then decelerate your face and/or shoot before you miss your target. I've rarely ever been able to sight in and then follow a target as well as can be had with a mouse, where you have much finer resolution regarding where you're positioned. Instead of robotically steering your face to and fro, mousing can far more accurately position a reticle as quickly as you can move your hand-- no waiting for your face to reach maximum speed. Switching from keyboard (which is comparable to stick control) to mouse in DOOM upon the recommendation of my opponents was like being able to meet without a translator in a foreign business meeting. The way the mouse is so similar to human sight easily explains why it hasn't been obsoleted in nearly 30 years.
The deal with Halo is that playing Halo with 4 friends is pretty easy (all you need are 4 controllers), and it's a lot easier to have a 16-person Halo party than to have a 16-person LAN party. While $PC_FPS_OF_CHOICE has better graphics and possibly better controls (people can fight K/M vs. controller all day if they want), it's so much more fun to blast the guy sitting next to you than a guy over the network.
The thing that a lot of hardcore gamers don't realize is that casual gamers like "party games". I can play Halo with my friend/apartmentmate/whoever, but I can't play Doom or Counterstrike with them right next to me.
I'd like to see someone organize some Halo zealots versus some Unreal Tournament jocks and see how long it takes before excuses are leaked. I don't see any competitive UT(2004 or otherwise) players that use anything but a mouse.
Furthermore, does anyone remember Quake 3 Rocket Arena? True 1v1 FPS combat has yet to match this mod's community. I'm sure the Rocket Arena champs are amongst the most tactically perfect FPS players there are. Gamepad control simply doesn't confer the ability to reach this level of performance out of their games.
I'm one of the haters who actually sat down and wanted Halo to be great and was let down. LIke you, I'm a PC Gamer. I was excited about Halo when I saw the E3 2000 video when it was suppose to be a 3rd person shooter for the PC that was like Tribes on crack. I camped out for my Xbox and got my copy of Halo. My friend and I played through the co op and after wards we gave game our own special title:
:( Best console fps for me still is Goleneye.
Halo: Repetition Evolved
The game just let me down on soooooo many levels. Absolutely nothing about it lived up to what I wanted. What I played before that: Goldeneye, Time Splitters, Tribes 2, Quake 2 DM/CTF, Quake 3 Rocket Arena, UT2004 DM/CTF, Rainbow 6 series (Raven Shield being the favorite). I felt like it tried to take the best of other games(mainly Tribes) and just failed at it as far as multiplayer was concerned. Single player well yea, that just sucked for me.
"There is no real right or wrong, just what the majority accepts at the time."
being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
yeah it's a shame Bungie couldn't come up with a Resistance killer. Oh wait, if Halo 3 flops (half the sales of original Halo) it will still have sold twice as many copies as Resistance.
Oh sorry, Anonymous Sony Fanboy Coward, I didn't meant to ruin your dreams of Sony world domination. I'm sure Bungie is going to run back to the drawing board after you told them how Halo is going to fail as a Resistance killer. Oh wait, wasn't Resistance supposed to be a Halo killer? Or is that for Killzone?
being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
... I think that word does not mean what you think it means....
I was gonna mod you up but i have no mod points anymore, i really couldent agree with you more. I just wanna add that while the K/M is great for FPS it sucks for other types of games just as a joypad kicks ass for some types and sucks for others its all a matter of balance, hell isnt everything.
Well, Bart, your uncle Arthur used to have a saying: "Shoot 'em all and let God sort 'em out."
Hey, that makes sense... no wait... no it doesn't. Buying the game from them is what feeds their monopoly - you know... gives them money to continue their practices. Also, you would have also had to buy the system to run it on, etc. Using a freely distributed codec and video doesn't give them anything, but gives you the ability to WATCH the video... for Free (as in beer.)
I think your priorities are backwords.
Bill
It's my Sig and you can't have it. Mine! All Mine!
I call bs- in my experience Goldeneye is the console shooter that PC gamers loved, if any, because unlike most others it featured much of the precision of control that we expect, as well as excellent map design. The N64 controller is unique amongst console controllers in that the long control stick allows for a very high degree of accuracy compared to, for instance, the 'analogue' controllers on a PS2.
I used to play a hell of a lot of Goldeneye with some pretty obsessed players, and the most rabid were all big Quake I/III and Unreal Tournament players.
I don't know too many Halo fanatics who are serious PC gamers, however.
Read Pynchon.
...as were the guys I play Battlezone II with. We watched halo all through development, and it it started out looking like the FPS/RTS hybrid we all wanted so much. At some point it got dumbed down to what it is.
Not that it isn't a great FPS...they did a wonderful job...it just wasn't a thinking persons game like I'd hoped. Not surprising, really, given the shortage of thinking persons to buy such a game.
More accuracy does not equal a better experience.
I play both (a Windows system with a 24" Dell Display, AMD FX CPU and SLI GTX card and Audigy w/ 5.1 dedicated for PC gaming - I do my work on Mac OS X, Linux and Solaris - and 360 with 50" HD Plasma and 5.1 Surround for gaming (a setup bought over a year ago - before I any HDTV feed, again specifically for gaming). I mention all that just to get the point across that I take my gaming pretty seriously.
I have way more fun playing a game like GRAW on a big comfy chair in the living room, with a larger display and a huge display and superior sound system) than on the PC - and that's not just due to the inferior quality of the PC port, the console version is a cinematic experience designed for a console. I prefer Halo on the console too. These are games who's gameplay is specifically tailored to a console environment.
I prefer Unreal on the PC, and Battlefield on the PC too (though the console Battlefield plays differently, as it should for a console). Unreal and the PC Battlefield series rely much more on pixel perfect accuracy and positioning and less on CoF dynamics and just looking at a nearby object to 'use' it, the circumstances and manner in which you take damage are often different too (particularly when playing against AI). As a result, the gameplay is different.
There is no doubt that you can place shots more accurately using a keyboard and mouse and sitting very close to a screen. It doesn't mean it's always more fun to play that way - if everyone else is using a console, it's not like you are at a disadvantage in any way (and I would argue that's a good reason NOT to include keyboard support in multiplayer FPS games - that and such a tiny percentage of people would use it I'd rather console developers focus on features that actually matter to most people).
I enjoy both. I think the people who complain they find using a controller difficult are either being close minded, or have mental deficiency when it comes to hand-eye coordination. If most 7 year olds can manage it (and I know a 4 year old that can do it just fine) it's something these so-called gamers should be embarrassed about finding difficult.
It's something that matters to a tiny proportion of 360 owners, so I can see why they wouldn't bother. You say "I don't care what input device you use.", with that attitude why should anyone care what YOU want to use, when most people manage just fine?
Now, I like both methods (unlike some posters here, I'm not deficient and can use both input methods quite well without crying like a baby about it), but obviously using a keyboard and mouse input is more technically accurate than using an analog input as far as an FPS is concerned (at least certainly when you don't factor in vehicle control).
With that in mind, I can see good reason why you might not want to enable support for a mouse and keyboard on a console. One of the advantages a console has is it's roughly a level playing field (everyone has the same spec'd system, it's highly unlikely anyone is cheating). In a competitive game, having some players with that sort of technical advantage is only going to put off the majority of players (who have no interest in sitting at a desk in their living room, or on trying to balance a keyboard and mouse on their lap).
Alternative, you COULD design a multiplayer came around a dual analog stick input (which most console FPS games are), but then the mechanics of it would annoy anyone trying to use a mouse (a reason why allowing users to use a mouse, even in single player - even *especially* in single player - may not be as desirable as it might sound). Subtle ssisted aiming and CoF mechanics are great on a console title, but they are much less pleasant to have when you are using a mouse and keyboard and more more fined grained control).
The number of people who find using anlog stick difficult for FPS games are small, and it's mostly because they don't try. I know 4 year olds that don't have a problem with it. There are serveral million Halo 2 players out there who don't have a problem with it. Lots of people cope just fine and have never seen it as problem.
Frankly, if you can master a mouse for controlling and FPS, I don't belive that you can find using an anlog stick difficult, I think you've just convinced yourself you can't. Some people who don't play PC games say the same thing about using mice. I don't belive them either. Some people need to quit winging and get on with it.
I don't belive there really is a group of people who can't use mice for FPS games, and a group who can't use analog inputs. I think there are just some people are too close minded to even try.
One thing that worries me about the comments on the Halo 3 beta are that the game modes "Land Grab" and "Territories" "Gets intense when time's running out, and only one or two markers are left to defend/capture." or "Very fun when it's tied 2-2 and everyone's going after the last one!"
What about the rest of those matches? Why can't it be "very fun" and "intense" the whole match? I'm thinking of games like Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory where all of the action is always focused, so it's almost always "very fun" and "intense".
I guess I'm just biased towards focused objective-play vs. splitting everyone one up around the map until the very end. Especially when there are only 4 players per team, you really need them all focused in one place.
I mean, it almost makes sense on a 64-player Battlefield server to split the players up among 8 control points, but you still have 4v4 action at each point. If you have multiple control points but only 8 players, things will of course be sparse until the end.
I'm just of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with a game console because you buy it to play games. You buy a computer to do whatever you want on it, which might include playing games. I'm not feeding their desktop monopoly by playing their console. I think MS should make console games and computer software (with open standards like odf). I won't touch their OS offering because it doesn't play fair by my standards. Once they figure out how to make good office software on every system (you think they could do this by using OOD, and just switch out the system interactions right? makes you wonder how good at software they really are...) I think they will finally be where they should have been when OS/2 rolled out. If they notice that their games are being bought and their OS isn't, that's called market force and they will either realize that they should focus more on games, or forever be hamstringed in their OS and game department due to misappropriated funds. Makes no difference to me as long as I don't use their OS and use standard formats. It's not exactly black and white in my view but maybe I am just some crackpot.....
Money is the root of all evil?
Why is it that game developers feel the need to call their games a killer of some kind? Ironically, I've only heard this expression used in conjunction with the FPS genre. As far as I can tell, no better game has ever truly killed the great game that came in line before it...and more often than not those games that are truly great are fondly remembered years down the line--for me, nothing will ever replace the experience of playing Team Fortress for the original quake, in its pixelated and later GLQuake glory :P
Original flamebait post aside. I play both type of FPSs on multiple platforms. I am a gamer in the truest sense of the word...I don't care what the game is on, if it is good, I will play it. But there is a difference between KB + mouse and a controller. The difference is like that between men's and women's pro golf. It is the same game, you have great players on both platforms, but the women just don't have enough power to compete with the men so they have closer tees and are better off competing with each other. Sure, sometimes a female golfer can make it in to the men's league, and that is great. But the Tiger Woods of the FPS world is going to be someone on KB + Mouse. They just have a finer control over their aiming than is possible with an analog stick.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Sorry but this is plain wrong. My gaming rig (AMD X2, 6000+, 2GB RAM and GeForce 8800 GTS) cost AU$1800 all up. it would have cost AU$2100 if not for the AMD price drop of late (or for similarly spec'd Intel equivalent). A mid range gaming PC will cost around AU$1200 these days, the price of admission for the minimum needed for a gaming PC is AU$1000 which is the same price as a PS3. In the states (and many other countries) it would be lower than the currency conversion (1 AUD = 0.83 USD) as we Australians get shafted by Hardware manufacturers.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
Here's a question: How much time have you spent playing FPS's on a PC? I'm willing to bet it's more than a few hours. So if you've been playing CS for the past 6 years, do you really think it's legit to compare that to a couple hours with a controller? Seriously?
Adjust your look sensitivity.
Halo also used to be a RTS similar to Myth. Your point?
You know, the 'ZOMG 40 peoiple no lag KEKEKE" arguement just doesn't matter to me. I much prefer 4 vs 4 (or 3 vs 3 vs 3 vs 3) fights instead of Big Team Battles in Halo. Why? I have 2-3 friends in the room with me.
You could have the best squad in the world, and it won't matter if the other 16 guys on your side are idiots.
Looks like somebody's got the red ring. you're just begging for a goatse.cx link, you know what?
Halo did to FPS what WoW did to MMO's. It took what everyone else did, polished it, simplified it, and brought it to the masses.
I have a feeling the game replays on multiplayer matches will be the 'killer app' of Halo 3. Now those "Did you see that?" moments will be followed up with "Watch this!"
If my opinion were that the sun revolves around the earth, wouldn't my opinion be wrong?
Just because a statement is someone's opinion doesn't make it a judgement-free zone. God knows PC gamers have access to joysticks and gamepads and so forth, and mostly prefer keyboard and mouse for shooters. (Personally, I'd probably prefer a control stick and foot treadles.)
Canthros
Look, an opinion can be wrong. A gamepad is not a better FPS controller. This is easily observed by way of the need for auto-aiming to compensate for the relatively greater accuracy of the keyboard and mouse combo (check out the upcaming Shadowrun shooter, which will allow PC and console gamers to play with/against each other over Live: console gamers get some auto-aiming and other tweaks to even things out some). This is not a simple statement of "I like x, some people like y". I'm saying there are easily grasped quantitative differences, and the opinion expressly contradicts that.
The guy's allowed to like the gamepad. Nobody's going to knock him down in the street, take his gamepad and force a keyboard and mouse on him. But he doesn't get to say 'gamepads are better' and not get contradicted just because he thought he said 'I like gamepads better'.
Even were this not so, one is still quite within bounds to hold and to express an opinion which runs contrary to the opinion of another. For heaven's sake, however do you think politics exists if not for the ability of two people to engage a difference of opinion? Don't be stupid. Of course, you can call others wrong because you disagree with them. If you can back that up, so much the better.
Canthros
I've been playing a lot of FPS titles on my 360...and I don't even notice the controller.
Is that because you are usually waiting for the respawn timer? Just a thought.
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
But who the hell bothers to have PC LAN parties anymore? All my PC gaming I do over the net, whether it's Guild Wars, CS, Starcraft, or Diablo. The only time we bother to have "LAN parties" anymore is because of Halo (since none of us bought it for PC).
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
On the note about ROM's - I got a 10.00 usb controller with mappable keys that all the emulators recognize. I have an older machine that runs the emulation just fine.
east coast models
I disagree. Playing a FPS on a controller is not as easy as a mouse and I doubt there is anybody would could seriously claim that it was. You simply don't have the same precision or the ability to spin or move as quickly as you do with a mouse. You might get used to a controller but you will never get the same speed or accuracy that a mouse offers. That's not to say that games haven't made the best of the bad situation and may have nice control schemes but a mouse and keyboard is a very intuitive and unmatched system for shooter games.
It will be interesting to see what happens when the next Unreal Tournament appears. They are saying that it will support mouse & keyboard on consoles. I expect they'll have to put a switch on matchmaking for this because those people stuck with controllers would be soundly thrashed every time.
I tried Halo 3 Beta version for xbox 360, I'm very disappointed on the game experience including graphics, sound, weapons etc. Truly hope that the beta version is just a tease and the real game is by far better than what I have seen so far. Gears of War and Rainbow 6 in my experience and personal choice are by far much better games in every aspect in comparison with the H3 beta. Hope Halo 3 is not just marketing with no future. NorthWolf