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Linus Responds To Microsoft Patent Claims
An anonymous reader writes "Linus Torvalds has a sharp retort to Microsoft executives' statements in a Fortune article that Linux violates 235 Microsoft patents. In an emailed response to InformationWeek's Charlie Babcock, Torvalds writes: 'It's certainly a lot more likely that Microsoft violates patents than Linux does.' He added: 'Basic operating system theory was pretty much done by the end of the 1960s. IBM probably owned thousand of really "fundamental" patents... The fundamental stuff... has long, long since lost any patent protection.'" Torvalds also commented on Microsoft's stated intention not to sue Linux users: "They'd have to name the patents then, and they're probably happier with the FUD than with any lawsuit."
Please note that this article violates 207 Microsoft patents. Anyone commenting on it will be violating a further 703 patents. Except me.
Can someone please explain to me how software patents "promote science and the useful arts?"
Wouldn't a patent law which does NOT promote science and arts be unconstitutional? Or am I misreading the constitution?
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I'm not clear how IBM could own thousands of patents back in the 1960s- at that time it was clearly understood that software is a non-patentable "invention". Oh how I wish this common sense would be restored.
"Don't you think that if Microsoft actually had some really foolproof patent, they'd just tell us and go, 'nyaah, nyaah, nyaah!'"
Tsunami -- You can't bring a good wave down!
It looks like Linus has been reading Slashdot the past couple of days.
That was a funny article. Linus is probably right... Microsoft probably violates more software patents than Linux. Shall we start a web page listing patents that /.-ers believe M$ violates? It might be useful one day, if M$ goes all legal on us.
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
You would be wise to listen to the customers you're threatening to sue - they can leave you, especially if you give them motivation. Remember, they wouldn't be motivated unless your products were somehow missing the mark.
All of which is to say - no amount of fear can stop the rise of free media, or free software (they are the same, after all). The community is vastly more innovative and powerful than a single company. And you will never turn back the clock on elementary school students and developing economies and aid agencies and fledgling universities - or the Fortune 500 - that have found value in the wisdom of the open source community. Open standards and open source software are literally changing the face of the planet - creating opportunity wherever the network can reach.
That's not a genie any litigator I know can put back in a bottle."
Source: http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/what_we_did
The more we post articles about how Microsoft is claiming patent violations, the better it is for Microsoft. This is simply a case of the more your story is in the news, the better the results for you. MS will NEVER sue anybody using Linux because the consequences of MS losing that case would be disastrous. Instead they will simply try and make managers (who in most organizations outside the tech sphere are technologically illiterate) make the following connection:
Linux = Patent Violation = Unreliable
Instead the Linux community should turn the tables on Microsoft and find a patent that MS has broken and feed the media the story that Windows users are going to get sued, hence making getting sued for using any OS a null point.
Technology is most abused by the very people it was created to help
"Basic operating system theory was pretty much done by the end of the 1960s. IBM probably owned thousands of really 'fundamental' patents," Torvalds said in a response to questions submitted by InformationWeek. But he doesn't like any form of patent saber rattling. "The fundamental stuff was done about half a century ago and has long, long since lost any patent protection," he wrote.
I worked for IBM developing operating systems during the 1960s. Software patents did not exist at the time and IBM patented no software. However there is a huge amount of unpatented prior art from about 1963 onward that can be used to invalidate any operating system fundamentals patents claimed by Microsoft.
------------------
Steve Stites
I hope that it's telling, after all Microsoft is essentially following tactics from IBM a company that is not, primarily in the software industry. They have essentially hired IBM's patent lawyer, Marshall Phelps
Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
Oh! And we should keep the list secret!
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
Just remember kids that you can't spell Microsoft without SCO (and MIROFT).
From the Novell press release, issued yesterday:
The commentary on Groklaw is interesting as well
Davis http://davis.foulger.net
Just for clarity's sake, it is probably about the time to start using the GNU/Linux nomenclature, not to mention actually differentiating between Linux as an operating system, and X Window running on top of it, with its various window managers.
.. they might actually have those patents. Whether they are enforcable may be a different matter. Especially considering the plethora of prior art. Except for Clippy and Bob, I'm not sure what they've done that is original.
I doubt M$ can claim that GNU is breaking any patents. As Linus as stated, its hard to imagine what internals of Linux that could intruding on a M$ technology, except maybe the Fat32 and NTFS compatability layers.
I remember reading one of the previous reports on this issue, and one of the claims was that user interface designs for things like the web browser and email clients were guilty. I was under the impression, when M$ stole from Apple (or when Apple stole from Xerox) all of this got settled.. It certainly strikes me funny M$ suing another company for stealing the UI. Besides the fact that the original IE looks a lot like Netscape's browser, and I'm pretty sure there were email clients before Outlook. Or the fact that Word looks pretty simlar to that of Wordperfect.
M$ might be right about the infringement
This is an innocent question. If the OSS community is ready to debunk these patents, do we really need Microsoft to reveal which of the 235 patents/infringements they're talking about? Couldn't we start a site/database that organizes all of Microsoft's patents and start documenting prior art and such for each. The patents themselves aren't hidden :
Microsoft's patents (6723 patents)
Microsoft's UI patent (155 patents)
(for example)
Why not start debunking the FUD to prove how spurious their claims are? Is it because this would be too much work? (Admittedly, 6723 >> 235)
or loose the rights for your 1 billion dollar suit!
...
also people have repeatable and publicly been requesting that microsoft identify what patents they think are being infringed. M$ should tell them or loose the right to get remedies.
35USC287:
TITLE 35--PATENTS
PART III--PATENTS AND PROTECTION OF PATENT RIGHTS
CHAPTER 29--REMEDIES FOR INFRINGEMENT OF PATENT, AND OTHER ACTIONS
Sec. 287. Limitation on damages and other remedies; marking and notice.
says "(3)(A) In making a determination with respect to the remedy in an
action brought for infringement under section 271(g), the court shall
consider-- (i) the good faith demonstrated by the defendant with respect to
a request for disclosure,
(B) For purposes of subparagraph (A), the following are evidence of
good faith:
(i) a request for disclosure made by the defendant;
(ii) a response within a reasonable time by the person receiving
the request for disclosure; and
(iii) the submission of the response by the defendant to the
manufacturer, or if the manufacturer is not known, to the supplier,
of the product to be purchased by the defendant, together with a
request for a written statement that the process claimed in any
patent disclosed in the response is not used to produce such
product.
The failure to perform any acts described in the preceding sentence is
evidence of absence of good faith unless there are mitigating
circumstances. Mitigating circumstances include the case in which, due
to the nature of the product, the number of sources for the product, or
like commercial circumstances, a request for disclosure is not necessary
or practicable to avoid infringement.
(4)(A) For purposes of this subsection, a ``request for disclosure''
means a written request made to a person then engaged in the manufacture
of a product to identify all process patents owned by or licensed to
that person, as of the time of the request, that the person then
reasonably believes could be asserted to be infringed under section
271(g) if that product were imported into, or sold, offered for sale, or
used in, the United States by an unauthorized person. A request for
disclosure is further limited to a request--
(i) which is made by a person regularly engaged in the United
States in the sale of the same type of products as those
manufactured by the person to whom the request is directed, or which
includes facts showing that the person making the request plans to
engage in the sale of such products in the United States;
(ii) which is made by such person before the person's first
importation, use, offer for sale, or sale of units of the product
produced by an infringing process and before the person had notice
of infringement with respect to the product; and
(iii) which includes a representation by the person making the
request that such person will promptly submit the patents identified
pursuant to the request to the manufacturer, or if the manufacturer
is not known, to the supplier, of the product to be purchased by the
person making the req
If they had patents that could kill linux, what would Microsoft do? Would they hem and haw and bluster about unspecified patents, or would they drop everything and file suit so they could get restraining orders against all the distributors of this "cancer"?
Microsoft's duty to their shareholders is to maximize value and exploit their IP. Of course they must choose the latter.
Therefore, they ain't got diddly or the blabbing would be done and the lawsuits begun.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think we all know that the kernel is probably safe; except for some of the drivers. I'll wager that Microsoft is eying FAT and NTFS. Still, it's awfully easy to fix that. Just distribute a kernel without those drivers in the source, and just let someone outside the US distribute the patches, compiled modules, as well as compiled kernels. Is Microsoft seriously going to demand that everyone turn over their kernels to check whether the FAT file system support is compiled into it?
The problem here is not that MS would ever dream of going to court, it's that the FUD could be very effective at slowing adoption. I suspect that if anything, it's OpenOffice that would feel the wrath of being dragged into court. Going after the kernel is ludicrous, and would likely turn up absolutely nothing.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
If the government ever really wants to address Microsoft as a monopoly, they should realize that the underlying monopolies are granted by the government. The 95 year software publishing monopoly is granted by the government. The 20 year software design/algorithm monopoly is granted by the government. If these monopolies were reduced to reasonable terms, the tight control given to these large companies by these monopolies would be lessened.
Is it kind of sad that such retorts are necessary?
Unfortunately, the damage is done. I work for a large financial organization that was *just* venturing outside of Microsoft operating systems and the lawyers sent out a notice today that we are to remove all traces of "open source" software, effective immediately.
I suspect that lots of organizations were in such a boat and Microsoft played their cards accordingly.
Linus's comments strike me as indistinguishable from the hundreds of comments we've had on Slashdot on this issue in the last 48 hours.
/. is that Microsoft will listen to his comments. Being who he is and what he's done, his comments hold weight in the discussion, whereas /. postings are just background noise (this one included).
What distinguishes his comment from all of the ones here on
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
Actually, from MICROSOFT you can spell:
SCO TO FIRM
SCO FROM IT
SCO OF TRIM
and permutations thereof.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
The problem is that Linus's comments hold no more weight with XYZ Inc.'s legal department, who are by now recommending that the IT department's move to transfer file sharing from an expensive Server 2003 farm to license-free Samba network be suspended indefinitely. Sure, the guys in the IT department know as well as Linus, you or I that Microsoft is playing a dirty game, but Microsoft doesn't give a shit about Linus, you or I, but about the lawyers and officers of the companies that are actually considering Linux boxes with Samba and OpenOffice running on them.
Do you think it's an accident that OpenOffice was the only OSS project specifically named? Put this in the perspective of MS fighting various governments to stop OpenOffice file formats from becoming the defacto document standards. Hey hey Mr. Massachussetts, that document standard your talking about, well the baseline software that produces it violates a bunch of our patents. Now the talking heads that get into public meetings will have a new and very potent tool in the arsenal, the threat of legal repurcussions if a switch to open software is made.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
This is the same exercise that was done with SCO. In fact, MS was probably wanting to see a trial run at this, to know what pitfalls they were going to have. Now, they have an idea of what to avoid. SCO's big downfall was having the patents outed. Once that happened, the community went to work on it and has destroyed SCO.
Why not debunk it? Nothing to debunk until they play their cards. They are being told to show cards after a call, and they want more rounds of betting. That is normally a bluff.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
IANAL, but couldnt the statements that M$ employees made about Linux infringing XXX many patents be considered slander? This was obviously done to harm the reputation of Linux, and absolutely no information was given pertaining to the actual patents that Linux violates. Perhaps, it's a different word when this is said about a product rather than an individual, but it seems like damaging the rep of a 'competing' product (with no proof) would have legal ramifications. maybe not?
No, you misread the article completely. What it said is that Linus is dead and you should get a day job.
09F911029D74E35BD84156C5635688C0
Jesus loves you, I think you suck
Dell's move is huge for Linux as a jumping-off point, and MS (imho) is trying to keep it from looking like Linux is a real competitor.
Yeah, and the ironic thing is that, by making all these spurious accusations, M$ is only validating Linux as a viable competitor.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
I'M FOR COST
It's time for Linux contributors to start a class action (defamation) lawsuit. Given the number of contributors, I'd say we're looking at several billion in damages. Maybe then we'd see some details.
I had hoped Linus would have said this, but I guess it's up to me:
Hey Microsoft! BRING IT ON, BITCH!
-- Will program for bandwidth
Good - your company obviously wasn't serious about open source software anyway. Note that Redhat pledged to indemnify their users, so your powers that be were not really serious about anything.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
i prefer "of scrotim"
If Microsoft publicly declares that Linux violates patents but won't disclose those patents it seems Microsoft would be guilty of slander. Clearly they're trying to make businesses think twice about buying into OSS solutions by giving the perception that those OSS solutions could be illegal.
Just raising the threat is enough to swing business into MS's camp. Without a single company to take point and sue MS for slander they'll get away with it.
Kevin Fox
It was lots worse than that:
I bet most institutions would be dead in the water if this advice were taken quite literally, as Microsoft used BSD code in there TCP/IP stack for a long time. Goodbye 95/98/NT/2000. Even if your not totally literal, there are tons of open source stuff that every company makes use of everyday, even if it doesn't register in the minds of the layman.
I'm sure there are more, but I believe that if all the admins of the world who got this request complied, Microsoft would be lynched in a heartbeat.
In fact, there should be a "Open Source or Die!" day where all machines that run open source software turn off. The inability to do anything would boggle the corporate mind.
I work for a large financial organization that was *just* venturing outside of Microsoft operating systems and the lawyers sent out a notice today that we are to remove all traces of "open source" software, effective immediately.
Could you give me a hint of which financial company? I'm worried that I'm keeping my nest egg funds in a company who lets idiocy run its course without actually checking the facts. I suppose such a company would likely panic for any non-serious market trends which leads to me being poor because someone freaked out over something that was simply not true.
"I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
-Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
"You need to change jobs, because the only damage done here, is to your company."
He works for a large financial company - one large enough to have its own law department. While eliminating open source software from their infrastructure is certainly unreasonable, it's unlikely that they'll be "damaged" by it. There are plenty of good closed-source solutions out there.
As for having to change jobs, well, changing jobs on the basis of software morality (a dodgy proposition at best) might be reasonable in a very select few markets. Lots of people can't simply throw a tantrum and quit just because they don't get their way.
> We'll have done their homework for them.
No, I think this idea has merit in a bigger sense. Think about it, post where I'm wrong if you see an error.
Ok, Microsoft threatens Linux/OSS with a patent fudbomb. Now the world is waiting for a response. But lets focus on the part of the world that matters here, large instituitional shareholders of Microsoft stock. If our response is to just start at the most recent patent on record and devalue it by documenting weaknesses (prior art, obviouslness, whatever) and showing every intention of moving backward until we hit the expired ones what sort of potential paper losses would that involve? Remember that they derive a non-trivial income by cross licensing that patent portfolio and the size of it reduces the cost they pay to license other companies patents. Directly attack that treasure chest and they would certainly feel pain. Even a credible threat of a concerted distributed attack on that valuable balance sheet line item would get the interest of the professional investors. Remember the one thing they dislike is uncertainty when assessing risk.
In summary it is one of the only ways we can demonstrate a counter attack that would do more than simply annoy them. Microsoft only understands force and the threat of it. They ruthlessly attack when they see weakness and deal when they encounter strength... and look for ways to undermine the foe and then attack.
Democrat delenda est
Also, M$ is possibly seeking mutual indemnification from theft of property prosecution. If M$ can press the Linux Foundation and FSF-GPL+ to provide such a settlement, then they are safe from being financially raped, forced to release M$ products to F/LOSS-GPL, or destroyed by forcing removal of all OSS-GPL copyrights protected code from M$ products.
.... It is a very good idea to start loading the evidence weapon that will put a through&through hole in M$. I mean we may as well help them commit economic suicide. Work with the Linux Foundation folks ... I will be sending them a couple hundred more $ this year for the TEK-War. I hope I can get a hat that says I supported the F/LOSS troops in battle against the M$techno-fascist.
So, who will be the first to flinch in this obvious game of chicken/standoff. I suspect, that M$ is looking to be another dickless empty SCOrotum.
I ain't good enough with code, but I will continue to put some loss money on the Linux Foundation, FSF-GPL, EFF
!HAVEFUN!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
AD is still just LDAP with a schema and some tools. They can patent try to patent that all they want, there is scads of prior art.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
No need, I've already made the list. And damn Microsoft violates a lot of patents; 312 to be precise.
// MD_Update(&m,buf,j);