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28 New Planets Found Outside Solar System

elkcsr writes "The San Jose Mercury news reports on the phenomenal discovery of 28 new extra-solar planets out there in our galaxy. All of them are outside of the band scientists consider necessary for supporting life as we know it, but the solar systems analyzed should still be quite familiar to those of us in this neck of the woods. System layouts feature small rocky planets towards the star and gas giants further out. The biggest difference seen is a preference for elliptical orbits, instead of generally circular orbit we enjoy. ' For example, the team also described new details about one specific exoplanet, discovered two years ago. This planet, which circles the star Gliese 436, is thought to be half rock, half water. Its rocky core is surrounded by an amount of water compressed into a solid form at high pressures and low temperatures. It makes a short, 2.6-day orbit around Gliese 436. Based on its radius and density, scientists calculate that it has the mass of 22 Earths, making it slightly larger than Neptune. "The profound conclusion is, here we've found yet another type of planet that is already represented in our solar system," Marcy said.'"

258 comments

  1. Cool by Khyber · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If FTL travel ever comes about, we can see if there's different materials out there that we're not aware of. Too bad I won't live to see it.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:Cool by grub · · Score: 2, Funny


      Yeah, I'd love to be around for the first shipment of Unobtanium as well.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    2. Re:Cool by HalifaxRage · · Score: 0

      Speak for yourself! I have another 50-60 years (conservatively) ahead of me, and if the movies have taught me anything, it's that by the year 2000 we will all have flying cars and live in cities on the moon!

      --
      bomb the us up set someone
    3. Re:Cool by kalirion · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If FTL travel ever comes about, we can see if there's different materials out there that we're not aware of. Too bad I won't live to see it.

      You never know where technology will take us, even in the near future. Some say that we might experience technological singularity within the next 20 years. Then it might be a rather short time until FTL, or at least the ability to prolong one's life/consciousness. Then again, it might also be a rather short time until our extinction.

    4. Re:Cool by BosstonesOwn · · Score: 0, Troll

      More importantly , does it run Linux ?

      --
      This package Does Not Contain a Winner
    5. Re:Cool by Aliriza · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I have only been to two other countries and has not seen most of the world yet and they are finding new planets.My life is too short and the universe is too big :)

    6. Re:Cool by forkazoo · · Score: 3, Funny

      You never know where technology will take us, even in the near future. Some say that we might experience technological singularity within the next 20 years. Then it might be a rather short time until FTL, or at least the ability to prolong one's life/consciousness. Then again, it might also be a rather short time until our extinction.


      As far as my dad is concerned, we passed the technological singularity a while ago.
    7. Re:Cool by Paperweight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      After reading this article on a quantum erasure experiment, it seems that if path p (in this experiment) was lengthened enough you can tell, by looking at the double slit results of path s, if the polarizer is in place on path p before the p photon even reaches the polarizer. What if path p was lengthened to a distant location? Could someone there apply or remove the polarizer to path p letting you, by looking at the nearby double slit interference/non-interference results of path s, receive the signal of whether the polarizer is on path p or not before the p photon reaches the distant polarizer? If so, you have FTL communication in one direction.

    8. Re:Cool by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 0

      Personally, I'm about 99% certain that in my lifetime we'll either have techniques to prolong life effectively indefinitely (namely, until we have the next life-prolonging technique), or techniques to preserve people in stasis of some kind until we have the ability to revive them and prolong their life effectively indefinitely. Like with the various cryogenic companies, for example.

      I fully plan to live right up until the minute I decide I'm done with this life.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    9. Re:Cool by aztektum · · Score: 2, Funny

      Can I have your stuff?

      --
      :: aztek ::
      No sig for you!!
    10. Re:Cool by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 0

      Nope, sorry. I'll give it to my descendants. Or a charity that I like.

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
    11. Re:Cool by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personally, I'm about 99% certain that in my lifetime we'll either have techniques to prolong life effectively indefinitely (namely, until we have the next life-prolonging technique), or techniques to preserve people in stasis of some kind until we have the ability to revive them and prolong their life effectively indefinitely.

      Me too. Unfortunately, I'm also 99% certain that I won't be able to afford them.

      This is probably a good thing, because we can't sustain a world in which everyone lives forever.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    12. Re:Cool by Hucko · · Score: 1

      As a education student we have been 'encouraged' to have a "futures"(sic) perspective. Part of the "futures" ideology/mythology (I don't know that it is developed/tested well enough to be a theory) is that technology is only one part of the singularity. Sociology is potentially the larger part, with other vectors affecting. Of course (they imply structured central hubs of officially vetted knowledge)"education is the catalyst for it(The Singularity) to occur"

      So while technology singularity is essentially occurring, we require several other aspects of human endeavour to "accelerate to the event horizon"

      Apologies for the jargon/misused physics; I only quoted THEM

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    13. Re:Cool by Kingrames · · Score: 1

      Oh yes you will. *throws you into the cryo-freeze machine*

      --
      If you can read this, I forgot to post anonymously.
    14. Re:Cool by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Me too. Unfortunately, I'm also 99% certain that I won't be able to afford them.


      This is probably a good thing, because we can't sustain a world in which everyone lives forever.

      Sure we can. We just can't sustain a world in which everyone lives forever and can have children.

      I think we might get to the point where one has to decide between immortality and reproducing. It could be interesting, especially since even I am not sure which I would choose.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    15. Re:Cool by Khyber · · Score: 1

      No, outer space runs off of BSD, doesn't everyone know that?

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  2. May I be the first.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To gain some profit out of these annoyingly common planets. I patent the idea of large chunks of matter in the sky!

    1. Re:May I be the first.. by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      To gain some profit out of these annoyingly common planets. I patent the idea of large chunks of matter in the sky! You can't patent ideas, idiot! Besides, I already own the patent to "the process of large masses orbiting larger masses". You can't patent ideas, but you can patent processes!
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  3. Strange... by Karganeth · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What confuses me, is why scientist believe that having conditions the same (or very close to) those on Earth is necessary for life. For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

    1. Re:Strange... by Cristofori42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      To their credit it did say "life as we know it" not just "life in general"

      --
      "Is that dad? Either that or Batman's really let himself go."
    2. Re:Strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who said it is necessary for life? It's necessary for life 'as we know it'.

      We don't know for sure that life can exist at 1000's of degrees C(or F). We do know that life can exist at 30 C. How shocking is it that they'd be more interested in first looking for it in places we know for sure it can exist? Looking first at planets that were 1000's of degrees would be pretty stupid without some other enticing evidence that life was present there.

    3. Re:Strange... by grub · · Score: 3, Funny


      What confuses me, is why scientist believe that having conditions the same (or very close to) those on Earth is necessary for life. For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

      I'm still amazed at how much stuff was created in just 6000 years. Another 28 planets! The miracles never cease...

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    4. Re:Strange... by Ucklak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let's say we can go visit another planet and I can plant my NASA boot on their soil. I really would like to not wear a protective suit that would protect me from the elements.
      I also wouldn't want to do it naked either as we sometimes portray aliens that visit earth as naked beings (CE3K, War of the Worlds, etc...)

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    5. Re:Strange... by Rakshasa+Taisab · · Score: 1

      Erhm... so you're saying we can't send our nudists to those planets?

      --
      - These characters were randomly selected.
    6. Re:Strange... by iminplaya · · Score: 2

      For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

      Yes I do.

      --
      What?
    7. Re:Strange... by sconeu · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's life, Jim, but not as we know it!

      Oh, and there's Klingons off the starboard bow!

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    8. Re:Strange... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Funny

      Erhm... so you're saying we can't send our nudists to those planets?
      Have you seen some our nudists? I mean, come on, we don't want to scare any potential alien life forms away...

    9. Re:Strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh, and there's Klingons off the starboard bow!

      Well scrape'em off, then.

    10. Re:Strange... by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

      "You just don't know" is correct. We don't know. However, we do know that life can survive in the temperature range where water is liquid. So it is extremely interesting to find the existence of planets beyond the Earth that have conditions where our kind of life can survive. As for other types of life, based on other chemistries, there has been lots of speculation, but so far no actual biology. Very likely the only way we'll know whether other chemistries will allow life to form is when we find it.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    11. Re:Strange... by umbra_dweller · · Score: 1

      I'll grant you that life might exist in other forms, but we have no idea what those other forms might be - if life exists in a place that is thousands of degrees, it might be very hard to detect it, since we have no idea what to look for. It makes sense to me to start with earth-like planets, because no matter what other ecological models might exist out there, we know that ours can work and we know what it looks like.

    12. Re:Strange... by syrinx · · Score: 1

      It's life, Jim, but not as we know it!

      Oh, and there's Klingons off the starboard bow!


      We come in peace, shoot to kill!

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
    13. Re:Strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "....life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know."

      I'm sure most of us don't know about this new temperature measurement you refer to as "hot"
      What is the conversion rate in celsius?

      Please elaborate....

    14. Re:Strange... by Maitri · · Score: 1

      Just some random thought but it has always been interesting to me that we worry about protecting ourselves from the environment we go to but we don't worry about protecting that environment from ourselves. People worry about touching rock formations in a cave but we think nothing of leaving footsteps on the moon (well at least urban legend claims are still there). Also - do we worry about an exchange of "germs," for lack of a better word? Germs say from the outside of a space suit or equipment? I know it sounds like bad sci-fi but history has shown us repeatedly that when two diverse environments interact the exchanges aren't always positive. I would hate for the first astronaut to mars to bring back the viral equivalent of the bubonic plague for instance...

    15. Re:Strange... by Gr8Apes · · Score: 1

      If you'll check the latest stories about NASA and bodies like Mars, Europa, Titan etc, you'll note that they're very concerned about potential contamination with Earth biology.

      --
      The cesspool just got a check and balance.
    16. Re:Strange... by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 1

      ...only if they can ride their bicycles.

    17. Re:Strange... by Bob+of+Dole · · Score: 1

      This question gets brought up in every single "We found water on X!" discussion.
      The reason we're looking so hard to find earthlike planets is NOT that we think they're necessary for life.
      It's that WE HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO FIND OTHER KINDS OF LIFE. If there is life that lives outside our oxygen+water environment, we haven't seen it. So we can't look at planet X and planet Y and say "Ahh, planet X is a lifeless rock, but planet Y is just right for methane/silicon life!". We've never seen any methane/silicon life. Until we do, we're probably never going to know if that kind of life is possible.

      But we have seen plenty of oxygen/water/reasonable temperature/reasonable pressure life. So we know the chances of life being able to exist in such an environment are... exactly 100%! (There's precedent)

      So we're happy about finding similar planets. We know Earthlike planets can support life. We don't know if non-Earthlike planets can. Logically we should pay more attention to the worlds which we know can support life than the ones that may (but we just don't know (and besides, we could never tell from this distance, short of them beaming radio transmissions at us))

    18. Re:Strange... by Pedrito · · Score: 1

      There are certain reasonable limits we can put on life, despite what sci-fi writers come up with. For example, silicon based life isn't possible, at least not naturally (man-made or alien-made, maybe). Only carbon is capable of creating complex molecules. Using any scientific basis for the definition of life, life requires a certain degree of complexity. You can create computer chips from silicon that might one day be able to achieve what we'd consider life (through some redefinitions of the word), but computer chips don't spontaneously come about and program themselves.

      So, if you assume complex carbon atoms as the basis for life, which is a pretty reasonable assumption, there are limits on temperature that complex molecules can exist at before they decompose. 1000 degrees is WAY above those temperature ranges.

      It's very likely that any other life out there is based, fundamentally, on amino acids or variations of the known amino acids. They are pretty easily created under natural conditions that would be common in our galaxy, at least (methane gas, water, and so forth), and they also make good building blocks for more complex molecules.

      That's not to say that all life is going to based on DNA or RNA. But it's pretty likely it's going to be based on proteins made of amino acids, however they're encoded. It's not that science lacks imagination to see other possibilities. Many have been investigated, but they have mostly been ruled out because of the lack of being capable of creating the necessary complexity. What we can do is, in a lab, create various conditions one might encounter on other planets, and in a "test tube" (though usually something bigger), try to see what gets naturally produced in those environments. Then you can see if you get the building blocks of complexity.

      In the case of Earth, if you reproduce the chemical environment of early Earth in a jar, you get amino acids. Most experiments with other types of environments either produce the same things or produce nothing that can be a building block of complexity. These are simply the natural bounds of chemistry, physics, and biology.

    19. Re:Strange... by Maitri · · Score: 1

      Thanks for for the information. That is pretty cool. Glad to know that they thought of it!

    20. Re:Strange... by nizo · · Score: 1
      ...we don't want to scare any potential alien life forms away...


      Wouldn't this be easier than exterminating them? Either way, they had no right to evolve on our planet before we got there.

    21. Re:Strange... by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 1

      "life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know."

      Several good reasons...

      1) We assume anything complex enough to be called "life" is made
      of some kind of complex molecules. In general complex molecules
      break down into simpler components at high temperatures. I think it is safe to assume the laws of chemistry are the same everywhere.

      2) We observe that life here is based on common chemicals found everywhere in space. Life everywhere is likely based on "what's
      around" and the same stuff seems to be everywhere

      3) Water is a really "special" chemical. My first chemistry teacher told us not to think of of it as "H2O" but as "H-OH". HOH is the only thing that can be both an acid and base. It's a good guess that liquid water is required for any kind of biological chemistry to take place. I could imagine some kind of life that makes it's own liquid water from ice or vapor but there are limits.

      4) if one is placing a bet, you'd go with what is most likely.

    22. Re:Strange... by pyrestriker · · Score: 1

      That is true. There are millions of bacteria here on Earth called cyanobacteria that live in extreme conditions. Like living in volcanoes, or even living off of methane gasses. The only things necessary for life "As we know it" are amino acids, and carbon. But who is to say that is the only way to have life?

    23. Re:Strange... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your point is not unreasonable, but it gets raised every single time one of these articles comes up.

      The answer always is: because it's the only conditions that we know are capable of supporting life. Everything else is speculation. None of these scientists are discounting the possibility, but there's no cause to expect life in conditions where life-as-we-know-it can not survive, and we might not even recognize other forms of life if we saw it.

      Additionally, one of the interesting factors in this quest is that if a place can support life as we know it, it can potentially support us.

    24. Re:Strange... by Ucklak · · Score: 1

      That would pretty much suck if you traveled through the rings of Saturn and found out that you melt into a puddle of goo once you come back home to Earth.

      --
      if you steal from one source, that is plagiarism, if you steal from many, well, that's just research.
    25. Re:Strange... by figgypower · · Score: 1

      I've always wondered why we look only for Carbon based life forms; thanks for the explaination. I never thought of the obvious fact that we haven't seen any other type of life form, thus looking for other life forms isn't even possible.

    26. Re:Strange... by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      I'm still amazed at how much stuff was created in just 6000 years. Another 28 planets! The miracles never cease... You're obviously a bit confused. God created this in just one day!

      Genesis 1:16-19: God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    27. Re:Strange... by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      "....life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know."

      I'm sure most of us don't know about this new temperature measurement you refer to as "hot"
      What is the conversion rate in celsius?

      Please elaborate.... "Hot" refers to any temperature that involves heat. Since he said "degrees" and this is a pseudo scientific discussion, you can assume he means degrees of the Celsius/kelvin nature. I think it's safe to assume that 1 kelvin = 1 degree hot. Of course "thousands of degrees kelvin" is indistinguishable from "thousands of degrees Celsius".
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    28. Re:Strange... by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1
      We know Earthlike planets can support life. We don't know if non-Earthlike planets can. Logically we should pay more attention to the worlds which we know can support life than the ones that may (but we just don't know)

      Exactly! Well said.

      --
      http://www.geoffreylandis.com
    29. Re:Strange... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      whoa, you're just tossing out a bunch of supposition. Silicon and special nitrogen/phosphorous compounds can both form arbitrarily large and complex molecules, and even at high temperature large molecules are possible under extreme pressure. So throw away that carbon chauvinism, you're just thinking inside a small box. And any objections to nitrogen/phosphorous or silicon based life always involve problems with oxygen or water, which is just more earth=life chauvinism.

    30. Re:Strange... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      nonsense, sulfur can form chains and hugely complex molecules of any length, and chlorine and arsenic can take the place of oxygen. Saying genetic code has to be based on building blocks of amino acids is just saying all life must be earthlike life, a ridiculous assertion given the severe limitations of sets of data on the subject.

    31. Re:Strange... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      Silicon and special nitrogen/phosphorous compounds



      In terms of abundance in the universe, carbon (4th most abundant, after oxygen) dwarfs those three (nitrogen 7th, silicon 8th, phosphorus ... not even in the top 10).


      Life "as we know it" (carbon-based) is more likely than life based on other types of elements, simply because its building blocks (carbon, oxygen, hydrogen) are very abundant elements.

    32. Re:Strange... by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      nonsense, sulfur can form chains and hugely complex molecules of any length, and chlorine and arsenic can take the place of oxygen.

      All three are fairly rare elements in the universe, compared to carbon and oxygen.

      just saying all life must be earthlike life, a ridiculous assertion given the severe limitations of sets of data on the subject.

      It's not a ridiculous assertion. The building blocks for carbon-based life are just much, much more common than those for life based on "exotic" chemistries, because they are more likely to be generated in fusion reaction in stars.

    33. Re:Strange... by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      "rare" is relative term, high mass stars can have sulphur and silicon in their core. There are billions of those in the universe. Just like there are high chlorine content stars, big universe, lots of possibilities.

    34. Re:Strange... by Pedrito · · Score: 1

      whoa, you're just tossing out a bunch of supposition.

      Actually, I'm close to graduating with degrees in chemistry and biochemistry. I also work in a lab doing drug development. I have a pretty good handle on chemistry and the chemistry of the elements and particularly with regard to the function of large biological molecules and how they operate and what their requirements are to continue operating.

      In addition to what the previous poster said about abundance of carbon in relation to other atoms, you're simply wrong with regards to the chemistry. Silicon and phosphorus atoms are too large (and thus their bonds too unstable) to create large, complex backbone structures. Both have a covalent radius of over 100pm. While one might argue that silicon's valence being the same as carbon makes it a good candidate, silicon doesn't generally participate in pi-bonding and simply doesn't create large, stable, complex molecules, in any environment.

      Nitrogen has a tendency to form nitrogen-nitrogen triple bonds that are incredibly stable (which is part of the reason N2 gas makes up 78% of our atmosphere). While nitrogen can create some large molecules in certain solvents, under certain environments, including fairly common solvents like ammonia, these molecules lack the diversity and complexity necessary for life.

      Life requires a good solvent. Water is a unique solvent for a number of reasons, making it very compatible with life. These other elements are incompatible with water in large molecules. They have a tendency to react violently with water. Water isn't simply something to dissolve the molecules in. It participates in hydrogen bonding in a way that's crucial for the function of the large molecules of life. There is no known solvent that comes close to being able to do the kinds of things water does. The 3 dimensional hydrogen bonding networks created by water are a crucial part in the function of proteins and DNA. No other known solvent can perform comparable functions with large molecules based on other chemistries. Now you could argue that some, as yet unknown solvent will do it, but keep in mind, it'd have to be a fairly abundant thing in the galaxy and that limits your choices of solvents significantly.

      The complex chemistry required for life simply can't be found in elements you propose or, frankly, any others out there. Carbon and water are unique in the ability to do the things they do. It's nice to fantasize about alternate lifeforms based on some other chemistry, but when you sit down and look at it in detail, there is simply no way it can happen.

    35. Re:Strange... by rubycodez · · Score: 1

      but check out the actual ppm numbers - sulfur and silicon are in the same league as nitrogen (and we should be saying carbon-oxygen-nitrogen-phosphorous life) and all those way more abundant than phosphorous which is essential for RNA/DNA.

    36. Re:Strange... by fatty.frog · · Score: 1

      Before searching for Extra Terrestrial Life we ought to define what is exactly meant by Life in general, be it ET or terrestrial. I agree that my statement may sound pretty lunatic when it comes to life of planet Earth. We believe that we have clearly defined Carbon based life forms whereas everything else is regarded as non-life. This is greatly thanks to the common root (presumably) from which the life on Earth evolved. Unfortunately, the life elsewhere will take its own paths from its own roots (can be multiple roots too).

      Hence we need to define life in more abstract and generic way in order to detect it elsewhere. At this point we have to recognize the most critical fundamentals of life on earth. I think there are only few elementary features that made life sustainable on earth. Let's generalize them.

      1. Ability to multiply its own structure (be it chemical of any other).
      2. Ability to apply mutations to the new generation at the correct extent - i.e. mutations strong enough to adapt to the rates of environmental transformations, yet subtle enough to retain the basic properties of the original.

      In my opinion, any"thing" with above two features would sustain and develop into what can be called life. When I stated any"thing" I did not limit myself to amino acid, big molecules, any particular element such as carbon, or not even to matter itself. It can be any combination of "thing"s that exist in the universe. (Even in virtual universes such as cyber space - but let's leave that part for AI rights groups whenever they start appearing)

      Self reproduction which I mentioned as fact (1) above, is a fundamental that appear in many processes. Sometimes the reproduction happens with mutations also. However, none of them match the exact speeds of the change of environment as the early amino acid or DNA did. Hence such procedures do not sustain for longer periods such that they become something that we can call Life.

      On this basis we can state that all the other features which we consider as essential for life are just macro-scale composite features that are results of above two basics. And they're just taken (for granted) from the life of Earth. Unfortunately, these by-products can be completely different elsewhere.

      With right dignity to all the religious and meta-physical ideologies, let me leave aside the concept that something lives inside the chemical bodies of living beings. The belief of soul/athmaya/vingnanaya(as in Buddhist philosophy) are beyond our ability to measure or debate. For that very reason it's not a good classifier for detecting life. If souls/vingnanaya drives humans and animals, what makes you think that trees, rivers and mountains don't have souls/vingnanaya?? We can not detect life based on something that is not detectable by ourselves.

      However it's compelling to accept that every activity that living beings manage, do not ESSENTIALLY need any such driving phenomena, but can be explained purely based on underline chemistry of of DNA and other building blocks of life. It's like AI where small deterministic programs get together in such a complex way to pretend as if they can think and decide.

      There is another major question on life and non-life. That is the matter of reaction speed of the species. Imagine that there lives a life form which takes one million earth years to produce offspring. The sluggish beings do their "day-today" actions in the durations of thousands of earth years. They are immovable and "dead as rocks" for the time span of a human life. Will humans detect it as life?? And then imagine an alien species who works so fast that so many generations pass through within a period of a mere milliseconds (don't expect them to have material bodies btw) They may build civilizations which lasts for less than a second. Can we detect them?

      Now this story does not have to be Extra Terrestrial. The reaction time difference can make us re-define many natural processes of our own planet as life, if we take it that way. For some time, I've

  4. So how many are we up to now, in total? by mrchaotica · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And how many systems have we looked at? It seems with the rate we're finding new planets nowadays, we might be able to start narrowing down the possible values of fp

    (Side note: I really wish Slashdot would allow <sub> and <sup> tags. I know only a subset of HTML is allowed to prevent abuse, but there's nothing harmful about subscripts and superscripts!)

    --

    "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    1. Re:So how many are we up to now, in total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (Side note: I really wish Slashdot would allow and tags. I know only a subset of HTML is allowed to prevent abuse, but there's nothing harmful about subscripts and superscripts!) Because real posters dont cite references. :P
    2. Re:So how many are we up to now, in total? by mrchaotica · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Huh? Subscripts and superscripts aren't just (or even primarily) for citing sources, you know. In fact, in this case I was complaining about the inability to write the variable "f(sub)p" correctly.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

  5. we are not alone by jcgam69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Our Milky Way galaxy has 200 billion stars. I would estimate that 10 percent of them, perhaps, have planets that are habitable," Marcy said. We are most definitely not alone in this galaxy.
    1. Re:we are not alone by Jarnin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When you're typing away on your computer late at night, do you consider yourself to be alone? Sure, you might be the only human in the room, but you are definitely not alone. There are insects and mites creeping around that room hidden from view. There are bacteria covering every surface of the room. So while a layperson would say "I'm here by myself" a biologist would smirk and keep quiet so they didn't scare you silly with all the bugs you're surrounded with.

      Habitable planets mean just that: there's probably life on them, but not life you would ever think twice about. Many of those planets, if habitable, wouldn't look like they're life-bearing at all. Sure, they might have oxygen atmospheres which we could breath, and they might have liquid water, but toss in your fishing pole and you wouldn't catch any fish (or fish-like animals).

      I'm really getting tired of all the sensationalist journalism that reports on findings like this. Sure, there's most likely habitable planets out there, and sure, there's probably life on them, but when you explain to a layperson what kinds of life, they say "oh, is that all?". Science fiction has embedded itself into our consciousness so that the only life we think about is animal life. Unless there are little green men running around on those planets, most people simply don't care (which is sad).

      I can't wait until we find signs of life on Mars or Europa. Even bacteria would be the most important discovery in the history of humanity, but the mindless masses with simply shrug their shoulders and flip the channel to something a bit more their level.

    2. Re:we are not alone by kalirion · · Score: 1

      I can't wait until we find signs of life on Mars or Europa. Even bacteria would be the most important discovery in the history of humanity, but the mindless masses with simply shrug their shoulders and flip the channel to something a bit more their level.

      Define "most important discovery in the history of humanity" please.

      I consider fire to be rather important. Electricity, atomic energy, microbiology, genetics, radio waves, etc. Plus all the neat inventions which make uses of said discoveries.... Bacteria on Mars would be interesting certainly, and fuel many religious debates, but how exactly would they be "the most important"?

    3. Re:we are not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How would finding bacteria on Mars be considered "the most important discovery in the history of humanity." ? I guess it would have big implications if you could proved that it evolved independently, but what if we found out that it merely hitched a ride on a chunk of matter ejected from Earth (or maybe the other way around)?

    4. Re:we are not alone by zCyl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Habitable planets mean just that: there's probably life on them, but not life you would ever think twice about.

      I don't know about that. Every single planet we've ever found life on so far has also evolved intelligent life. Coincidence, perhaps, but that's a pretty good hit ratio.

      The catch is that perhaps 50% of that intelligent life will take billions of years to evolve, and the other 50% of that intelligent life evolved intelligence billions of years before we did.

      Given the quantity of habitable planets out there, it's probably a safe bet that the universe has a good quantity of intelligent life that's been around very very much longer than us.
    5. Re:we are not alone by localman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      the bugs you're surrounded with.

      And covered with and permeated with, too! The healthy bacterial flora of the skin and digestive system; and even more amazingly the mitochondria in each cell. Most scientists now accept them to be specialized bacteria that became symbiant with primitive cells so many millenia ago, which is why they have their own genes and genetic code, distinct from the host, i.e. you. Though they're as much a part of me as my cells, I sometimes like to think of some percentage of my body weight being made of little creatures living literally in every part of me, processing glucose and ketones into ATP or whatever to keep me going. Kind of creepy but kind of cool.

    6. Re:we are not alone by Plutonite · · Score: 1

      Every single planet we've ever found life on so far has also evolved intelligent life. And how many planets is that? Is it also a coincidence that we are unable to engineer a single primitive life form with thousands of years of engineering (and about 30 years of nano-tech) behind us?

      Initial construction of reproducing cells from raw chemicals is more difficult than millions of years of mutation-selection leading to intelligent life.
    7. Re:we are not alone by sohare · · Score: 1

      Human evolution though had a lot to do with where the ancestral population was located and changing climate conditions. If things had been somewhat different, there probably is every reason to believe something akin to a chimpanzee would be running around instead of us.

    8. Re:we are not alone by drawfour · · Score: 1

      I don't know about that. Every single planet we've ever found life on so far has also evolved intelligent life. Coincidence, perhaps, but that's a pretty good hit ratio.
      Sorry, a sample size of 1 has no statistical relevance.
    9. Re:we are not alone by dissy · · Score: 1

      And how many planets is that?

      1, Earth.

    10. Re:we are not alone by colmore · · Score: 1

      100% of the life-bearing planets we know of have a lot of different species with almost unique and highly specialized modes of survival, each one of them being as likely to appear as intelligence.

      There's nothing special about intelligence. It isn't the "goal" of evolution. It could very well have fizzled out or never shown up here. Think about evolutionary history in an unsentimental way and big brains aren't obviously worth their cost. Sure we win out in the end, but we pay for it by being a lot more fragile and hard to grow than even our closest animal cousins. A bad famine could have picked us off before we developed language.

      I don't see why there's any logical reason to think that intelligence is a terribly common adaptive strategy. While a lot of strategies have been pulled off time and time again here on Earth, intelligence only seemed to have survival value for a single species once.

      --
      In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
    11. Re:we are not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every single planet we've ever found life on so far has also evolved intelligent life. Coincidence, perhaps, but that's a pretty good hit ratio.

      Uh, since when has ANY planet that we know of had life on it (let alone intelligent)? I have yet to hear of any life discovered on Mars and it's the easiest planet for us on which to find life, if we are going to find it. Anytime scientists ever come close to announcing they have discovered life they change their minds or retract their statements if they actually announce they have found something. We can't even find planets directly let alone detect life on them (we have to rely on celestial wobbling to detect planets). Quit spreading lies and making up figures (50% chance of intelligent life having already evolved). There is no coincidence because there is no other life. As scary as it is for some of you to believe, we are alone. And until you find evidence otherwise that isn't a lie. Oh, and signs of life does not dictate life. Remember that when you reply with your evidence. Then again, this is the same site whose readers think that a few skeletons explain the path life on earth took.

    12. Re:we are not alone by dave1g · · Score: 1

      dolphins, whales, and elephants also have large brains, not to mention the other great apes. We might be the most intelligent but there are other intelligent species on the planet that have achieved survival through it.

    13. Re:we are not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every single planet we've ever found life on so far has also evolved intelligent life. Coincidence, perhaps, but that's a pretty good hit ratio.

      And what were the odds that a non-intelligent species would be able to form a sentence like that? There is a 0% chance that you would be able to claim that no planet with intelligent life has been found. Hence, there is no coincidence.

      Next.
    14. Re:we are not alone by zCyl · · Score: 1

      Sorry, a sample size of 1 has no statistical relevance.

      One is greater than zero, therefore it has meaning. Think about it.
    15. Re:we are not alone by zCyl · · Score: 1

      And what were the odds that a non-intelligent species would be able to form a sentence like that? There is a 0% chance that you would be able to claim that no planet with intelligent life has been found.

      You are correct, but you missed a third possibility. If intelligent life were very rare, then there would be a very large chance that I would be unable to claim that there is or is not intelligent life, by virtue of not existing. I think, therefore intelligent life evolves. Think about it. It's a bet worth putting money on.
    16. Re:we are not alone by Czar+the+Bizarre · · Score: 1


      does anyone else suddenly feel itchy ???

    17. Re:we are not alone by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      Uh, since when has ANY planet that we know of had life on it (let alone intelligent)? I think he was referring to the third rock around the sun, but you have definitely shot down his intelligent life argument.

      As scary as it is for some of you to believe, we are alone. And until you find evidence otherwise that isn't a lie. As scary as it is for some of you to believe, there is no god. And until you find evidence otherwise that isn't a lie. (I love burden of proof!)

      Oh, and signs of life does not dictate life. Remember that when you reply with your evidence. ......? So even if we find life and they send us a message over the radio saying "Hello, Earthlings" it may not be life? What does dictate life?

      Then again, this is the same site whose readers think that a few skeletons explain the path life on earth took. I don't know, I think that a bunch of pictures of a man made of straw is a pretty good indicator of the creation of a straw man.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    18. Re:we are not alone by smparadox · · Score: 1

      Uh, since when has ANY planet that we know of had life on it (let alone intelligent)?

      WHOOOSH!!!!

      We have discovered one planet that has life on it. That planet has intelligent life on it - several species, with different levels of tool-using capability and differing levels of language skills. You have (most likely) heard of it. You may have even visited it at some point in your life...
      /sarcasm
      --
      "I am become Gerund, Destroyer of Verbs"
    19. Re:we are not alone by glitch23 · · Score: 0

      I think he was referring to the third rock around the sun, but you have definitely shot down his intelligent life argument.

      Since when do we consider knowledge of intelligent life on earth a discovery? Who claims this discovery anyway? Shall I also consider my house a discovery of settlement of the North American continent? I didn't know the obvious could be considered a discovery.

      --
      this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
    20. Re:we are not alone by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      I think he was referring to the third rock around the sun, but you have definitely shot down his intelligent life argument.



      Since when do we consider knowledge of intelligent life on earth a discovery? Who claims this discovery anyway? Shall I also consider my house a discovery of settlement of the North American continent? I didn't know the obvious could be considered a discovery.

      Refer to the other reply below mine. The AC stated that life didn't exist on any known planet. Quite obviously the person he was replying to was referring to the Earth, as was I. The argument isn't "out of all 7 (or 8) planets we've somewhat looked at, none have life." The argument is that "we've only explored 8 (or 9) planets, and we already know life exists on one of them." There is no reason to believe that the conditions to create and sustain life on earth are unique in the universe, therefor it is reasonable to believe that there is a decent chance of life existing elsewhere even though we haven't discovered it yet.

      Although my reply was satirical, I was hoping to prove the point. Obviously that didn't happen. I never said life was discovered on the Earth, although it actually was several times. Europeans thought they were the only ones on the planet for quite some time. Then they explored a bit more and discovered that there were other, non-Christian people in Asia. Then they explored some more and found a whole new continent. One of their reasons for not believing that nobody else was on the planet was that it wasn't mentioned in the bible. I'm too lazy to pull references, but this caused some problems for some of the early explorers as well as the church.

      If you don't consider any religious texts to contain all of the knowledge of the current state of the universe then you have no reason to believe that life doesn't exist elsewhere. It's all probabilities, and most calculations show that it is unlikely to believe that man is alone in the universe, even though we could be the only life we'll ever find due to distances. It is extremely unlikely that Earth is the only planet in the universe that ever has and will harbor life. The real question is how close to us are the other life-harboring planets in terms of time and space.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  6. Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by spun · · Score: 1

    Can any astronomers out there clue us in? Is this just observational bias or are elliptical orbits more common than our more circular ones? I mean, I know it's likely a long way in the future, but that could be a small problem for our future colonization of the galaxy. It would certainly mean our new homes would likely be less than earth-like.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by IdleTime · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We are circular? that's news to me. We are also elliptical around the sun.

      The only problem I see, is space travel. It's a long long long way to the nearest exoplanet and we will probably never be able to travel that far thanks to the laws of the universe.

      --
      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    2. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by spun · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The article says the newly discovered planets have more elliptical orbits than ours. As for space travel, well, generation arks aren't out of the question. Even using such a system we could colonize the entire galaxy in a few million years.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    3. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We are circular? that's news to me. We are also elliptical around the sun.

      I think they mean "more elliptical." Or rather, orbits where the foci of the ellipse are much, much further apart.

      I guess the assumption is that a very elliptical orbit would produce too much variation in the planet's climate to sustain live and allow it to evolve very far, although I'm not sure what the basis for that is. Seems that, with the right ingredients, you could get all sorts of interesting forms of life that could withstand dramatic freeze/thaw cycles, as long as they weren't dramatic enough to boil the planet's water or atmosphere away. Here on Earth we have ample examples of creatures with very long reproductive cycles (e.g. 17-year cicadas), so I don't think we should rule anything out.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    4. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by jd · · Score: 4, Informative
      IANAA, but Patrick Moore plays the xylophone.

      A circular (or near-circular) orbit should be extremely rare. It is the special case of an elliptical orbit where the speed is very very close to the theoretical speed required to orbit at that distance from the sun and the direction of motion is very close to being at right-angles to the sun.

      The Earth is an intriguing case - the original third planet collided with a planet the size of Mars, resulting in part of the crust being blasted off into space forming a mass that is now our moon and a debris ring. A collision on that scale - two almost equally massive objects slamming at an angle - must have resulted in a change in velocity. Since Earth is now on a near-circular orbit, it would seem not unreasonable to assume it started off on a much more elliptical path.

      Virtually all of the known objects in the Kepler Belt follow extreme orbits - some varying by 300+ AU in distance from the sun. However, these are all very old objects. They have not been subject to many collisions and are almost in their original state.

      On the basis of our extrasolar observations to date, plus the Kepler Belt observations, plus the Earth enigma, I would conclude that elliptical orbits are the norm for younger solar systems and that more circular orbits become slightly more common in older systems where there is a chance that collisions will have averaged things out better.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    5. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So does that make a parabola "infinitely elliptical"?

    6. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

      We are circular? that's news to me That's the first thing I was looking for. "We're circular? Since when?"
      --
      the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    7. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by kirbyoo · · Score: 1

      It's an observational bias, based on how they find these planets. If Neptune were as close to the sun as Venus or Mercury it would have more pull on the sun and create the "wobble" that scientists use to detect the majority of exo-planets they've found. The other method of detection is watching for a planet to pass in front of it's sun. Since that requires a lot of things to happen in our favor (orbital position, planet size / speed) we're going to find a lot more planets by looking for the wobble.

    8. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I think we're a long way off from producing self-contained ecospheres that can survive for tens and hundreds of thousands of years in voyages to even the closest solar systems with potentially habitable planets. Can you imagine the complexities involved in assuring such vessels can be maintained. You would have to have a vast amount of raw materials, processing facilities and technical know-how. You would have to have a very efficient long-term energy source to keep things going, and you would have to have redundancy up the ying-yang. The cost, even to a future civilization capable of such engineering feats, would be incredibly high. Heck, even with the technology for manned missions to the Moon and neighboring planets, it's been nearly forty years since anyone even bothered to do it.

      My bet is that by the point that we develop systems and engineering principles capable of producing such craft, we may have means of moving large objects at meaningful fractions of the speed of light, and that we'll be taking advantage of relativistic effects so that a journey to Alpha Centauri might take centuries to the folks on Earth, but decades to those in the interstellar spacecraft.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    9. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Can any astronomers out there clue us in? Is this just observational bias or are elliptical orbits more common than our more circular ones? I mean, I know it's likely a long way in the future, but that could be a small problem for our future colonization of the galaxy. It would certainly mean our new homes would likely be less than earth-like.

      I can't understand why we would make the assumption that these planets might have orbits similar to ours - I mean, they are observing planets with very short orbits so why should we expect the orbits in a solarsystem that's consisting of planets whipping around their star at a blazingly fast 1 orbit every 2.6 days to be similar to ours?

      When we start finding planets with orbits in the hundreds of days, thats when things will get *really* interesting.

    10. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I think part of what we're ultimately looking for is Earth-like worlds, not just in size or density, but in the possibility of holding Earth-like life, and by extension, possibly being able to support human life. I'm quite sure there all sorts of worlds that could harbor life, and even finding some sort of hot house where temperature-tolerant bacteria evolved or some world that went through annual super-freezing and super-heating seasons due to a highly elliptical orbit would be incredibly exciting, but I really think the secret desire of astronomers is to find Earth 2; a lovely place with average annual temperature are in line with the more hospitable areas of Earth, where open water can be found and an atmosphere resembling ours is present.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    11. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 0, Troll

      So does that make a parabola "infinitely elliptical"?

      I'd guess so, in a way. But it's a tough question to answer, because although parabolas have some ellipse-ish properties in terms of shape, an ellipse is by definition a closed surface (it's a conic section, the shape you'd get by slicing a cone with a plane), while a parabola isn't.

      On the other end of the extreme though, a circle is just an ellipse where the two foci are placed at the same point. But when they're infinitely far apart, I'm not sure whether you can say that you've created a parabola, or just a really big ellipse. (I suspect the latter.)

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    12. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Bemopolis · · Score: 1

      A circular (or near-circular) orbit should be extremely rare. It is the special case of an elliptical orbit where the speed is very very close to the theoretical speed required to orbit at that distance from the sun and the direction of motion is very close to being at right-angles to the sun.


      Well, not that rare. You make it sound as if there is a cosmic crapshoot between all values of ellipticity, ergo the subset of low ellipticities should be small according to the vagaries of chance. However, the formation mechanism of planets favors low ellipticities: they emerge from the debris disk around a protostar. Large planetoids in circular orbits within the debris disk can accrete nearby material slowly and build up over time. A large planetoid sweeping through the debris disk in a highly elliptical orbit is more likely to suffer a high-velocity collision that will break the planetoid into smaller chunks (since the disk rotates in a Keplerian fashion rather than a rigid disk, speeds vary with radius), reducing its accretion rate. In short, the odds favor more-circular orbits.

      As to why most extra-solar planets found so far are non-Earthlike and have orbits that are highly elliptical — well, massive planets with short periastrons are easier to find than smaller planets with large orbital radii. It's the nature of the observing method.

      (And yes IAAA, or at least W while funding was around.)
      --
      "I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
    13. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by AmigaMMC · · Score: 1

      It's just "physical" bias, just like seeing only bigger planets. These planets are detected because of the lensing effect and probably having elliptical orbits and being large are some of the reasons why we can detect them. Who knows, with the Hubble substitute with might be able to see under different requirements. Only 15 years ago people where doubting the very existence of planets outside of our solar system.

    14. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by jtwright · · Score: 3, Informative

      Can any astronomers out there clue us in? Is this just observational bias or are elliptical orbits more common than our more circular ones? Well, IAAA. There are no strong observational biases going on here regarding the eccentricities of the orbits of exoplanets. If anything, we're somewhat less likely to detect orbits in extremely eccentric orbits (but it turns out those are rare, anyway). It is a mystery why the planets in the Solar System are on nearly circular orbits when most of the exoplanets are in more eccentric orbits. Most of these planets are not much like those in our Solar System -- the median mass is 1.7 Jupiter masses and the median orbital period is 9 months.
    15. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by chgros · · Score: 1

      The Earth is an intriguing case - the original third planet collided with a planet the size of Mars, resulting in part of the crust being blasted off into space forming a mass that is now our moon and a debris ring.
      You sound quite sure about that. This is still a hypothesis. Also I don't see what it has to do with the eccentricity of Earth's orbit.
      the Earth enigma
      What about the Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus enigmas? They all have fairly circular orbits (some more than Earth)
      the Kepler Belt
      Do you mean the Kuiper bet?

    16. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by jd · · Score: 1
      Hmmm. Wouldn't that be true only over a sufficiently long timeframe?

      Since the collisions are down to chance, and planets probably don't form simultaneously, there must surely be a timeframe in which the probability of a high-speed collision that would destroy a planetary mass is low enough that the planets are traveling in a more-or-less random direction. As the timeframe increases, the number of significant masses would presumably increase, and the probability of any two masses colliding would also increase. Over a long enough timeframe, you eventually end up with something stable.

      (Here, I'm picturing early systems to have criss-crossing orbits that would lead to a collision - eventually. We know the proto-Earth had such an orbit with a Mars-like planet, and we see exactly that today with Neptune and Pluto.)

      As you're an astronomer, you can correct me on any misinterpretation on my point, but it would seem that a system must start brownian-like and evolve to the more stable system you describe using the mechanism you outline.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    17. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by localman · · Score: 1

      Talking about extreme variations: I always liked the idea that the giant sequoia trees included forest fires in their reproductive cycle. Apparently they wait many decades until there are huge natural forest fires that wipe out the small and medium sized vegetation before the seed pods drop. Then they land in clear and fertile soil with little competition. Of course, their trunks have to be fire resistant, and they are. Their leaves and small branches have to be high enough to avoid the worst of the heat from the flames, and they are.

      Even on earth life has found amazing ways to survive. I'm sure there's some life out there living in environments that we consider inhospitable... because there are already many here on earth doing the same thing.

    18. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by jd · · Score: 1
      Ok, first everything in science is "theoretical" to some degree - we weren't around 4.5 billion years ago. However, it was recently (I seem to remember a Slashdot story on this in the last week or so) accepted by astronomers that this was the best of all currently proposed theories. It is also the only model that can account for the moon's momentum (it has escape velocity and this limits where it can originate from), it is the only model that can account for the moon's composition (it is composed of the same materials as the Earth's crust in about the same ratios), and it is the only model that can explain how the moon could still have a semi-liquid core (it's too small to retain a liquid core unless very young).

      The Earth's orbit is relatively simple. Momentum in any collision is conserved. So is kinetic energy. The moon would have carried rotational momentum, but probably not much forward momentum. This means that the Earth's velocity is the resultant velocity of the collision. Since the orbits crossed, at least one of these bodies had an eccentric orbit. Since the result of the collision was not to leave the Earth on a wildly eccentric orbit, I would have to conclude that the Earth initially had a more eccentric orbit and that the collision reduced that.

      (momentum = m * v, kinetic energy = 0.5 * m * v^2, total momentum and kinetic energy must remain unchanged from start to finish, and the rest is Newton's second and third laws.)

      Mercury is absurdly dense. Whether it lost lighter elements in a collision, or simply never had them because it's close to the sun is outside my knowledge of planetary physics. However, the argument concerning drag would certainly apply to Mercury, making that one easy.

      Venus has no moon or belt, so is unlikely to have had any significant impacts. I'm going to accept the drag idea for that as well.

      Mars - isn't that the one that was used to prove elliptical orbits? If so, I'm going to dispute that it has a fairly circular orbit, if it was measurable in the time of Tycho Brahms!

      Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus are gas giants. They most certainly experience brownian motion on a small scale, but average out to fairly circular orbits, which is exactly what I predicted. I hardly see the issue there. I say that small particles travel randomly, but that the net motion is circular. When you squish those particles into a gas giant, you get exactly that behaviour. How is this an enigma? It's simple statistics.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    19. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by honkycat · · Score: 2, Informative

      The Earth's eccentricity is 0.0167 -- that is EXTREMELY close to circular.

    20. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by lgw · · Score: 1

      It does make sense in tems of conic sections to think of a parabola as an "infinite elipse". As the angle that you "slice" the cone approaches the angle of the cone itself (i.e., a parabola), the size of the elipse apporaches infinity, so you could reasonably say that as the size of the elipse approaches infinity, the elipse approaches a parabola. And, of course, a parabola is also an infinite hyperbola in the same way.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    21. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We are Devo.

    22. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by IdleTime · · Score: 1

      Well, I guess it's just like living next door to a bank doesn't make you a millionaire, close to circular doesn't make it circular...

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      If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
    23. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by honkycat · · Score: 1

      Blah.

      No, it's not a precise mathematical circle. Compared to the more elliptical orbits of the other planets, it's relatively circular by comparison. You'd only be off by a percent or so in the worst case if you just approximated it with a mathematically perfect circle.

      If you want to practice proper pedantry, none of these orbits are elliptical either. If you're not willing to accept approximation, they're all N-body dynamical orbits with N = the number of objects in the universe. Since N = 3 is already analytically insoluble, good luck...

    24. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      ...but I really think the secret desire of astronomers is to find Earth 2; a lovely place with average annual temperature are in line with the more hospitable areas of Earth, where open water can be found and an atmosphere resembling ours is present. Secret desire? That's the openly stated wet dream of astronomers! It's like the return of Jesus to the Christians or the worldwide adoption of Islam to Al Qaeda. This is exactly what they openly hope and wish for.

      My father is an amateur astronomer and he has always told me that he ultimately wants to find another Earth-like planet harboring intelligent life, but he'd be happy just to see as much as he can of what's out there or maybe even discover something new in his lifetime. One of his hopes is that it will happen in my lifetime since it's probably not going to happen in his.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    25. Re:Are elliptical orbits easier to detect? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Venus has no moon or belt, so is unlikely to have had any significant impacts. I'm going to accept the drag idea for that as well.

      Don't forget about the fact that Venus has retrograde rotation. *something* big happened to Venus a long time ago.

      However, Mars does have fairly circular orbit. Tycho Brahe (not Brahms!) was an amazing scientist. His observations are astonishingly accurate. The fact that he observed them is not an indication of the eccentricity of the orbit.

      Regardless, circular orbits are more common, if you want evidence, look at the orbits of the major moons, e.g. the Moon, Titan, Europa, etc. All pretty circular.

      It is an observational bias that causes us to find more planets with eccentric orbits.

  7. Happy New Years! by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 5, Funny

    An orbit in 2.6 days, huh? That's gotta be a record. Barely time to recover from the New Year's hangover before popping the cork again.

    1. Re:Happy New Years! by dreamlax · · Score: 1

      You know, Venus has a day longer than it's year . . . and it also spins backwards compared to the other planets in our solar system.

    2. Re:Happy New Years! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Last new years I got a little too drunk and almost got involved with a girl younger than 2528 years old! Gotta be careful as you could get sent to jail for at least 421 years.

    3. Re:Happy New Years! by SirBruce · · Score: 1

      Actually, 3 planets rotate "backwards" - Venus, Uranus, and Pluto. Or 2 if you don't count Pluto. Or, if you flip north and south, then all of the planets except those 3 rotate backwards, along with the sun. It's all a matter of perspective.

    4. Re:Happy New Years! by dreamlax · · Score: 1

      Touché!

    5. Re:Happy New Years! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nevermind that. It gives a whole new meaning to only having sex once a year!

  8. here? by coldcell · · Score: 2, Informative
    "any-day-now-we're-going-to-here-about-squidgy-thi ngs-in-outer-space dept."

    Surely he means 'hear'?

    also:

    Its rocky core is surrounded by an amount of water compressed into a solid form at high pressures and low temperatures.

    You mean... ice?

    --
    Launchy.net changed my world.
    1. Re:here? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      water compressed into a solid form at high pressures and low temperatures.
      You mean... ice?

      He probably means one of the weirder kinds of ice.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    2. Re:here? by Adambomb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You mean... ice? Actually, the interesting thing there is that it is a specific kind of high pressure ice. If you never thought a topic as mundane as ice could have complexity, check out the different different known phases.

      Surely he means 'hear'? Maybe they just mean we're going to go somewhere, whereabouts squidgy things in outer space are!
      --
      Ice Cream has no bones.
    3. Re:here? by JP205 · · Score: 1

      I thought ice turned into water at high pressures?

    4. Re:here? by CaptainPatent · · Score: 1

      it's true he does mean Ice, but not quite as we know it. The extra gravitational pressure allows water to solidify at a much higher temperature than it does here. So even though the planet is extremely hot and very close to the star in that system, High-temperature ice still forms.

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
    5. Re:here? by imikem · · Score: 1

      TFA says the solid water is at high pressure AND temperature. So no, not ordinary ice.

      These announcements are seemingly routine now, but I find them fascinating. We can't even image these directly, yet are able to infer all this from the effects on the central stars in these systems. Bravo to the people involved.

      --
      Perscriptio in manibus tabellariorum est.
    6. Re:here? by CaptainPatent · · Score: 1

      quite the opposite:
      Gas turns to water at high pressure.
      Water turns to ice at even higher pressure.

      --
      Well, back to rejecting software patent applications.
  9. It's new! Just like the other one! by dmccarty · · Score: 1
    "The profound conclusion is, here we've found yet another type of planet that is already represented in our solar system," Marcy said.

    Yet another type that's already represented? I guess it's not "another type," then.

    --
    Have fun: Join D.N.A. (National Dyslexics Association)
  10. Re:Why are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because there will never be a single class of citizenry.
    There will always be people that want to work and people that don't want to work.
    There will always be people that will want to ask questions and people that will accept the status quo and care not to ask questions.
    There will people who like Paris Hilton and people who care not to know what a Paris Hilton is.

    Even if you have a closed community of like minded citizenry, they will be infiltrated either by spawn or outside influence allowed by spawn.

    So screw those people what want welfare for lazy bums and want to feed hungry nations that can't solve their own civil wars. I want to see what is on other planets.

  11. Re:Why are... by Sciros · · Score: 1

    Duuh, it's like "why are you looking at other girls, when you haven't solved the issues with your current one?" I wonder :-P

    --
    I like basketball!!1!
  12. Exotic ice. by Palmyst · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Cold water is denser than ice. So compressing H2O near its melting point actually tends to melt it rather than freeze it. Extremely high pressure can turn this back into solid state again.

    Gliese 436 b is supposed to be at a surface temperature of 520 Kelvin. The phase diagram of H2O indicates that for certain "exotic" forms of ice to form at that temperature, you need more than 10^9 Pascals of pressure. It would be interesting to calculate the gravitational force on the surface of the planet, and at what depth pressures of 10^9 Pa can be created by gravity, from the known data about the mass and size of the planet.

  13. 39 Planets Total by Nymz · · Score: 0

    4 terrestrial
    4 gas giants
    3 dwarfs
    28 new dwarfs
    --
    39 planets total... until the next time we look up in the sky.

    1. Re:39 Planets Total by canUbeleiveIT · · Score: 1

      4 terrestrial
      4 gas giants
      3 dwarfs
      28 new dwarfs


      You forgot:
      40 ?
      41 Profit!

  14. Evil scientist by unablepostAC · · Score: 1

    And in 5 years, those evil scientist, will do another meeting, and decide, half of them are no longer to be called planets.
    and came out with a silly name like, outsiddy planets, or like
    Like the injustice to Pluto

    1. Re:Evil scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Get over it. As far as I'm concerned, Pluto should never have been considered a planet to begin with, just one of many Kuiper belt objects with an eccentric and inclined orbit and a mass rivaled by numerous moons.

    2. Re:Evil scientist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You know, Pluto wouldn't feel so denigrated if people would stop anthropomorphising it.

  15. Extreme conditions by iknownuttin · · Score: 1
    For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

    Whoever wrote the article doesn't know about the life that lives around volcanic vents deep in the ocean or the things living deep underground at extreme temps and pressures.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Extreme conditions by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

      Whoever wrote the article doesn't know about the life that lives around volcanic vents deep in the ocean or the things living deep underground at extreme temps and pressures.

      We know life can live there, but we don't know whether or not life can form there. And to appeal to the creationists, we don't know whether or not God is fond of creating life in non-earth like environments.
      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
  16. here by splict · · Score: 1

    from the any-day-now-we're-going-to-here-about-squidgy-thin gs-in-outer-space dept.
    I know that this is a longer than normal "from the..." line, but...

    Oh, nevermind.
    --
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a yo-yo.-Enoch Root
    1. Re:here by jimmux · · Score: 1

      It's not much longer than normal. Those lines seem to growing exponentialy of late. I predict next week we will see "from the oh-fuck-it-we-ran-out-of-clever-dept-names-months- ago-and-are-reluctant-to-reuse-an-old-one-because- that-would-not-be-very-clever-of-us-now-would-it dept".

  17. Plain language, anyone? by R2.0 · · Score: 1

    "surrounded by an amount of water compressed into a solid form at high pressures and low temperatures."

    You mean, "ice"?

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    1. Re:Plain language, anyone? by Goaway · · Score: 1

      No, not what you would normally refer to as ice.

  18. Re:Why are... by mosiadh · · Score: 1

    They don't even know if the ones around here are girls are not, or who they've been with.

  19. Did Anyone Else? by ReidMaynard · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Did anyone else first read ".. 28 New Patents Found .." ?

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

    1. Re:Did Anyone Else? by ghotihed · · Score: 2, Funny

      As a matter of fact, I did first see the word "patents". It's a shame, too, as I was just getting ready to be all indignant and such.

      Not that I'd put it past something like the RIAA to try and claim 28 patents on the recording disk attached to the Pioneer spacecraft and sue NASA for their p2p (that's planet-to-planet) file sharing.

      Me
      --
      I'm not an actor, but I play one on television.
  20. OMG! by travdaddy · · Score: 1

    We're surrounded!

    --
    Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
    1. Re:OMG! by agw · · Score: 1

      Excellent! Now we can attack in any direction!

  21. I, for one... by ubuwalker31 · · Score: 1

    print "I, for one, welcome our new exo-planet overlords" * 28

  22. Elliptical? by soundhack · · Score: 4, Informative

    Umm it's been ages since I took any astronomy course, but I thought Kepler figured out that *our* orbit was elliptical?

    I assume the article meant "elliptical" in the qualitative sense, that their orbits "looked" like ellipses while our orbit "looks" like a circle.

    1. Re:Elliptical? by toddhisattva · · Score: 1

      All orbits are mostly elliptical.

      A circular orbit is just a special case of elliptical orbit, with eccentricity = zero.

      Just like a square orbit would be a special case of rectangular orbit.

    2. Re:Elliptical? by Khyber · · Score: 1

      Well, did you forget about the arms of our galaxy rotating? If you figure that into the equation, our orbit would actually look like something a spirograph would draw, a curly-cue pig-tail in a circle, over and over again.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  23. 28 new planets? Bah! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many planets is that after the downgrade?

  24. We ARE alone by SlashDev · · Score: 0

    think about it for a minute: - A planet needs to be at a precise distance from a star based on its chemical makeup. - A planet needs a trigger in order for life to emerge. - That life needs to be able to somehow sustain itself. - That life has to be able to survive celestial events. Odds that such a planet exists anywhere is astronomical. Earth is really one of a kind place.

    --

    TOP DSLR Cameras Reviews of the top DSLRs
    1. Re:We ARE alone by moderatorrater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only problem with that logic is that you're assuming life can't develop in any form other than what we have here on earth. However, many scientists think silicon could make a serviceable substitute for carbon as the building block of life elsewhere, and that still assumes a similarity to the life here on earth.

      However, if it's possible for life to develop in other environments, then it looks like there's going to be a lot of company in this little galaxy of ours.

    2. Re:We ARE alone by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Interesting

      think about it for a minute:

      A whole minute? Might make brain hurt!

      And people who do this for a living have thought about it for far longer than a minute, and have arrived at the exact opposite conclusion as you.

      A planet needs to be at a precise distance from a star based on its chemical makeup.

      How precise? NASA folks think Mars might have once supported microbial life (maybe still does based on the methane readings). That's two planets in one solar system at a precise distance. They even theorize about life under Europa's ice. That's pretty loose precision. And don't get me started on extremophiles.

      A planet needs a trigger in order for life to emerge.

      The formation of the first protocells is a hotly debated topic. Who knows how often the "trigger" occurs or how amenable our universe's physics are to it's happening?

      The Miller experiment in the 1950's showed you can get the basic organic molecules from the fundamental gasses and some lightning bolts. Organics have also been observed, via spectra, in comets and nebula. They're everywhere.

      That life needs to be able to somehow sustain itself.

      Isn't that one of the definitions of life?

      That life has to be able to survive celestial events.

      There some that feel that early Earth microbes surivied the massive collision that created the Moon. All subsequent cataclysims resulted in extinctions, but never a complete erasure of life. I think life has been proven empirically to be rather hardy.

      Odds that such a planet exists anywhere is astronomical. Earth is really one of a kind place.

      We have absolutely no idea what the probability is.

      That reminds me. When the heck does "Spore" come out? :-)

    3. Re:We ARE alone by Chysn · · Score: 1

      > Odds that such a planet exists anywhere is astronomical

              "Astronomical?" I know that when you say "astronomical" you mean "a really low probability." But what the rest of your post is saying, and it's probably right, is that life requires certain conditions to exist. You'd need to have an awful big number of samples to beat those odds. An astronomical number of samples, even. Astronomical:Universe == 1:1, by definition?

      --
      --I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
      -- See?
    4. Re:We ARE alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      This galaxy is also apart of billions of other galaxies that compose the universe, its amazing if not impossible to be able to fully grasp the true scale of it. The implication of their being life currently or at one point on Mars or Europa, in our own solar system, if true would be astounding, providing some proof that life is an abundant and naturally forming processes in the universe.


      On a more personal note and I am aware there is no real knowledge of their being such, but it's nice to think that somewhere else (or many places) in the universe some form of life at some point in time potentially went or is going threw the same questions, and the shit we deal with here on a daily basis. For those who are interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw music is a bit cheesy but the video does an excellent job in helping show the true scale of a galaxy, of a small portion of the universe.
    5. Re:We ARE alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The history of life on Earth is: there is life on Earth, i.e. chemical evidence of life exists in the oldest sedimentary rocks on the planet. Which means life must of gotten started before those rocks, which means as soon as our planet had cooled enough to sustain life, life must have originated. So at least for the one place we known life exist, life got started pretty easily.

      The big test will be Mars. We now know Mars was warm and wet long enough for rocks to be laid down. When means (at a minimum) it was warm and wet as long as it took life to develop on earth. If we find life got a similar easy start on Mars it means that anywhere the conditions are right, life will develop.

    6. Re:We ARE alone by Mbenji · · Score: 1

      I don't need to elaborate on your argument, you've said it all.

      Spore is expected to come out late in 2008. ;)

    7. Re:We ARE alone by SlashDev · · Score: 0

      I am not assuming and you are correct, however the methods we are using to look for life is to look for biological life.

      --

      TOP DSLR Cameras Reviews of the top DSLRs
  25. When's the auction? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

    I fancy me a new planet to call my own.

    1. Re:When's the auction? by Mbenji · · Score: 1

      I'll be the first to make an intergalactic woot.com! The "bag of crap" will have silly stupid things like life, air, or atmosphere. ;)

  26. Chemistry. by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Informative
    What confuses me, is why scientist believe that having conditions the same (or very close to) those on Earth is necessary for life. For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

    Chemistry works the same way, regardless of which solar system you are in. While it might be possible that life exists on planets that are slightly colder or slightly warmer than Earth, the chances of it existing on places as cold as Pluto or as hot as Venus/Mercury are infinitesimally slim, because reaction speeds on the former are just too slow, and the high temperatures on the latter are not very conducive to the formation of complex molecules.

    Also, water has some fairly unique properties that basically no other liquid has (for example, it's denser in liquid form than in solid form).

  27. Re:It's new! Just like the other one! by Geoffrey.landis · · Score: 1

    He means exactly what he said: they found a type of planet that had not previously been seen OUTSIDE the solar system. This is significant because it is evidence that our solar system is not unique.

    --
    http://www.geoffreylandis.com
  28. Considernig... by The+Living+Fractal · · Score: 1

    Considering that we're finding so many planets, don't you think it's rather assuming of us to claim that Riyo Mori is really, truly, Miss Universe 2007?

    I do.

    TLF

    --
    I do not respond to cowards. Especially anonymous ones.
    1. Re:Considernig... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree. I seriously thought it was going to be a toss up between Miss Andromeda and Miss NGC 2865.

      Ah well, there's always the next universal cycle.

    2. Re:Considernig... by kalirion · · Score: 1

      I think you'll have a hard time convincing human judges to vote for the Green Blob representing Omicron Percei 8. On the other hand, I do hear good things about those Orion slave girls.

    3. Re:Considernig... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who else should they vote for? The Gelgameks? The Gelgamek vagina is three feet wide and filled with razor-sharp teeth! Do you really expect us to have sex with them?

  29. 249 Planets Total (not including dwarf planets) by benhocking · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually, so far, 241 extrasolar planets have been discovered.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  30. Call Guinness! by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 1

    An AC with a legitimate question.

    --
    the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
    1. Re:Call Guinness! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That attack was uncalled for. After looking through this guy's posting history, it seems this isn't his first trolling post either:
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=236117&cid=192 72147
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=235983&cid=192 72129
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=235983&cid=192 61885
      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=235925&cid=192 47539

      Who knows all the other troll and flamebait posts he has made before those most recent ones. Please mod this troll down.

    2. Re:Call Guinness! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But he's not bitter. No, he's probably sour, if his smell is anything to go by.
      Wake up Hopeless - no-one's out to get you, there is no cabal, and you alone are responsible for everything that happens to you. That said, get off your ass and get to a placement center. Get a job and get started over again. Stop being a leech on society!

    3. Re:Call Guinness! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You said absolutely nothing that had anything at all to do with an infinitely elliptical parabola.

  31. Depends by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    Depends on the temperature and pressure. Under some conditions, it's possible to take common ice (Ice Ih, "one - H") and force it back into water by applying pressure to it. Hence the thin film of water underneath an ice-skater's skates, or under a thin blade or wire strung over an ice block. (As an interesting demonstration, you can take a piece of piano wire, put it over an ice block, and weight either end -- the wire will descend into the ice block without leaving a "cut" behind, because the water will re-freeze behind it, if it's cold enough.)

    However, at other combinations of temperature and pressure, you can create other types of ice, many of which don't really resemble the "ice" that we commonly think of. IMO, we really shouldn't refer to these other forms of solidified water as "ice," instead reserving that term only for the common Ih state. But the rest of the physics community seems to disagree, and I suppose "ice" is less ponderous than "solid water" to write over and over.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  32. Jump Points by MarcoPon · · Score: 1

    OK, so now we just locate the nearby Jump-Points and start enjoying some extra-solar, planet-side weekends!

    --

    SeqBox
  33. Must be. by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 1

    "The profound conclusion is, here we've found yet another type of planet that is already represented in our solar system"

    Dupe?

  34. What you're seeing... by david.given · · Score: 1

    ...depends very much on what you can see:

    System layouts feature small rocky planets towards the star and gas giants further out. The biggest difference seen is a preference for elliptical orbits, instead of generally circular orbit we enjoy.

    Yeah, but that's because the state of the art can only detect rocky planets when they're really close to the star, but can detect gas giants when they're further out; and planets with elliptical orbits are much easier to find than circular orbits, so a disproportionate number of those appear.

    Some of these solar systems could have a thousand earth-like habitable planets in the multiple A.U. range, and we wouldn't even know they were there.

    1. Re:What you're seeing... by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      The other thing we should be waiting for, and it may not happen quite in our life time, is large inferometers made up of widely spaced telescopes orbiting the sun. These ought to get us to resolution levels where we might even be able to differentiate continents on some hypothetical Earth-like planet. We're certainly not that far away from at least detecting planets more in the terrestial range of sizes, and being able to detect atmospheres similar to our own isn't fantasy any more either.

      What I really wonder is if in, say 2020, scientists announce they have discovered an Earth-sized world with atmospheric O2, nitrogen and water vapor and stronge evidence of open water on the surface. This really isn't in the realm of fiction any more. How would this effect space programs, budgets for various kinds of telescopes, initiatives to produce more accurate ground-based and orbital telescopes, and the like? How would effect us to learn that such a planet existed?

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  35. Re:Why are... by harry666t · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    > Why are we even LOOKING at other planets when we haven't solved the problems on our own?

    Shit, mod me offtopic too but... The guy's damn right.

    http://www.seeklyrics.com/lyrics/Helloween/Back-On -The-Ground.html

  36. Equinox Parties by dreamchaser · · Score: 1

    If you count celebrations for the Vernal and Autumnal equinoxes you can just stay drunk all the time.

  37. Prove it. by mosb1000 · · Score: 1

    "Chemistry works the same way, regardless of which solar system you are in."

    Prove it.

    1. Re:Prove it. by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      We see the same basic elements even in distant galaxies, the same interactions of matter and energy. It's a pretty damn easy inference that the rest of the observable universe functions as we see it here.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Prove it. by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      "Chemistry works the same way, regardless of which solar system you are in."

      Prove it.
      It's science. You can't "prove" it. You can only draw reasonable conclusions from the available evidence and, until evidence disproving your conclusion becomes available, assume that your conclusion is close enough to correct to be useful
  38. More impressive? by juuri · · Score: 1

    What is even more impressive to me, call it 241 or call it 249 planets, is the following:

    * Consider a planet like mars that could one day be terraformed or colonized by people from Earth.
    * Let's call that a planet suitable for life as we know it.
    * Then there is Earth where we do already live.

    What does that give us? 2 of 241 or 249 planets in the known universe that could possibly
    harbour life as we know it. That is a startingly high percentage.

    --
    --- I do not moderate.
  39. It's not that simple by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not that simple. Just being in the right band doesn't mean it'll be habitable, or that life developped... at the right time.

    E.g., look at Venus. It's in the right band too, but it's hell. The slow rotation speed means it has almost no magnetic field, and the solar radiation stripped away all hydrogen. The result is a world without water, and with an atmosphere of almost pure CO2. (Well, ok, and a little nitrogen.)

    E.g., look at Mars. We're finding that it used to have water, but the world is so small that it didn't manage to retain an atmosphere. Not only the low gravity means that gas has a hell of an easier time escaping, but the core already froze and it ended up without much of a magnetic field again. So solar winds helped strip it of whatever atmosphere it hadn't already lost.

    Earth itself paints an even scarier story.

    See, Earth started with an atmosphere of mosthly methane gas. That's a _very_ powerful greenhouse gas, about 200 times more potent than CO2. But that was ok because the sun also was a lot less hot. Without the methane, Earth would have been a deep frozen snowball and life would never have evolved.

    But then the sun gradually got warmer, very gradually over billions of years. And Earth would have eventually become a hell worse than Venus.

    Luckily some of these new (at the time) bacteria had started doing photosynthesis for a living, and turned the atmosphere into lots of oxygen and nitrogen, which doesn't quite act as greenhouse gasses.

    And incidentally that _did_ cause the planet to turn into a deep frozen snowball in the process. Luckily a new batch of carbon got spewed into the atmosphere and thawed it again. It took some tens of millions of years for that to accumulate, though, because we're talking a _lot_ of carbon in the air to defrost as snowball Earth. As in, at least one estimate says 13% carbon dioxide. And that was the first scary skirting with complete extinction.

    And from there it's been riding a bit of a thin line between turning into hell and turning into a snowball. E.g., if you look at the massive coal deposits from the Carboniferous era, they had to come from _somewhere_, and that somewhere is almost certainly the air. Without the right conditions for this (e.g., the lower sea levels and the recent event of plants whose wood couldn't be broken because bacteria which can digest lignin didn't yet exist), would Earth have eventually turned into Venus?

    So basically if you look at it, 10% of the planets being in the right band still paints an over-optimistic picture. You also have to have the right conditions and the right timing. E.g., if the oxygen production had come a billion years later, Earth would now be pretty much the same as Venus.

    Are we alone? Maybe not, but don't get that optimistic based on that 10% figure.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:It's not that simple by jddj · · Score: 4, Insightful

      More to the point, not even a hundred years elapsed between the time we made the first tentative experiments with radio and the point at which we developed the technology to wipe life off the planet with the machinery of war.

      This doesn't even comprehend accidental or intentional sterilization of the globe with some new biological weapon or experiment not yet comprehended.

      It's possible that over the long term, only the not-as-smart-as-us lifeforms survive.

      We'd have to find each other not just in space, but in time as well. And the realities of time in space travel mean there may no longer be a welcoming committee there by the time we put down the gangway.

    2. Re:It's not that simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not only that, but assuming I recall correctly, the "habitable zone's" of smaller stars tend to be closer. Add to that fact that many such dwarf stars also have rather intense flare activity (flare stars), and such worlds would likely not be hostpitable. Stars that are more massive tend to have their habitable zone farther out, but also produce much more high energy electromagnetic radiation.

    3. Re:It's not that simple by bhiestand · · Score: 1

      And this doesn't even take into consideration the insane probability of a large asteroid breaking away 1/6 of the planet and launching that chunk into a place where it could form into a stable orbit. Life as we know it wouldn't exist if the moon wasn't pretty much exactly where it was when it was.

      Of course even if the odds of all of this happening are 1 in a trillion it's probably still happened elsewhere in the universe.

      --
      SWM seeks new sig for a brief fling
    4. Re:It's not that simple by smparadox · · Score: 1

      More to the point, not even a hundred years elapsed between the time we made the first tentative experiments with radio and the point at which we developed the technology to wipe life off the planet with the machinery of war.

      Umm... We don't yet have the capability to wipe life off this planet. If we used every single nuke AND every single last gram of toxins and every single last gram of bioweaponry, and every last bomb and bullet and incendiary and industrial pollutant and so on etc, if we used every last trace of our life-destroying technology, we'd barely make a dent in the biomass of the Earth. I doubt we'd even manage to the cyanobacteria's kill record from when they first converted the atmosphere over to organic-molecule-dissolving free oxygen! Let's have some sense of prportion here, please.

      Oh wait, this is the Internet, I forgot where I was...
      --
      "I am become Gerund, Destroyer of Verbs"
    5. Re:It's not that simple by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      Umm... We don't yet have the capability to wipe life off this planet.

      Well, maybe if we tried really, really hard, we could start a runaway greenhouse effect and turn Earth into a slightly cooler (only 400 degrees Celsius) version of Venus. We'd have to work really hard on that, though - simple CO2 isn't going to cut it, we'd have to use CFCs and such.

  40. Alien Chemistry by CustomDesigned · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I always liked Sci-Fi stories where aliens had alien chemistry. There was one where creatures lived on the Sun with bodies formed of plasma shaped by intricately twisted magnetic fields. They were spacefaring, but one of the hazards was annoying chunks of cold dark matter in the orbital plane. (what was God thinking?) One touch was instant death for a Sun person. Another had inhabitants of Jupiter swimming in methane seas and smelting solid hydrogen for tools.

    1. Re:Alien Chemistry by smparadox · · Score: 1

      I always liked Sci-Fi stories where aliens had alien chemistry. There was one where creatures lived on the Sun with bodies formed of plasma shaped by intricately twisted magnetic fields. They were spacefaring, but one of the hazards was annoying chunks of cold dark matter in the orbital plane. (what was God thinking?) One touch was instant death for a Sun person. Another had inhabitants of Jupiter swimming in methane seas and smelting solid hydrogen for tools.

      My favorite alien chemistry had to be the story that had life evolving on the surface of a Neutron star. The surface was a skin of nuclear iron (iron nuclei stripped of all electrons), and life evolved based on "nuclear chemistry" (electromagnetic interactions between the protons in the nuclei, rather than between the electrons in orbital shells). They grew up in an environment that required them to move along magnetic field lines - crossing them required a huge amount of effort - and they resembled amoebas, but much smaller. They eventually developed spaceflight, but it required the creation of subatomic scale black holes to generate sufficient gravitational field strength to keep them alive (outside the gravity well of their "world" they tended to die by expanding into oddly glowing lumps of iron).

      I really enjoyed the chutzpah of trying to come up with a plausible picture of life on a Neutron Star.
      --
      "I am become Gerund, Destroyer of Verbs"
  41. Feh. by mjolnir_ · · Score: 1

    Wake me up when you find an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_M_planet/M-clas s planet.

  42. High percentage by benhocking · · Score: 1

    By "high percentage", I assume you mean that if you multiply that out by the known stars in just our galaxy, you get an impressively large number. However, that percentage is no doubt quite low compared to its actual value. Currently, we have to be very lucky to detect a habitable planet. The James Webb Space Telescope will make it much easier. In 10-20 years (those are not nuclear fusion or AI "years", but are real years), I expect that percentage will be much larger (as will the total numbers).

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:High percentage by juuri · · Score: 1

      I thought it was quite clear what I meant. Of the known planets a startingly high
      percentage of them can harbour life as we know it. Any percentage above
      0.000000001 is extremely high given our understanding of the universe just
      ten years ago.

      I said nothing about how this holds up in comparison to the number of stars,
      galaxies, chickens, functioning walkmen or bottles of aftershave in the universe.

      --
      --- I do not moderate.
    2. Re:High percentage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Before the first exoplanet was discovered the fraction was 2/9, and now it's 2/249. The percentage is getting less impressive as our understanding of the universe improves, so I fail to see your point.

    3. Re:High percentage by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      Before the first exoplanet was discovered the fraction was 2/9, and now it's 2/249. The percentage is getting less impressive as our understanding of the universe improves
      Those are only the fractions of known habitable planets over known planets. Small planets near the star they orbit, like Earth, are still difficult to detect. As our ability to detect such planets improves, the ratio will likely increase.
    4. Re:High percentage by juuri · · Score: 1

      Actually there was no fraction before discoveries of the previous ten years.

      The number was simply 2.

      We now have the capability of having a fraction that we have high confidence in.

      --
      --- I do not moderate.
    5. Re:High percentage by someone1234 · · Score: 1

      haha, then this percentage went from 100% to 0.2% in a few years.

      --
      Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
  43. Primordial plasma by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For all we know, life could be able to live at thousands of degrees hot. You just don't know.

    Sure we know. Life won't survive at thousands of degrees because organic molecules fall apart at those temperatures, unless it's based on some element we don't see in the periodic table. A few thousand degrees means a good part of an eV per particle. Most chemical bonds will break in such an environment. Other elements don't behave right for life- they either form little molecules with a dozen or so atoms, or long simple polymers like asbestos. At thousands of degrees you won't even see that. Oxygen and fluorine can produce stable compounds with high bond energies but even those will break, and ceramic-based life has generally been a non-starter. Carbon itself will for the most part only exist in a free state although carbon monoxide (surprisingly stable) appears in stellar spectra.

    Of course the definition of "life" is abstract in a general sense and doesn't necessarily involve electron chemistry at all. But if there's life anywhere on the sun, it's the sort of life that college-age geeks imagine existing at some level in the cellular automata programs they write for homework.

  44. Sure, they find 28 new planets... by FlyingSquidStudios · · Score: 1

    But try to get a plumber in over the weekend.

  45. 2007: by lahi · · Score: 1

    "Hmmm."
    "Oooh!"
    "Urgh!"
    "Urgh!"
    "Urgh!"
    "Urgh!" ...
    "You can cancel one research program:"
    "Get lots of money immediately"
    "Build a decoy ship"

    -Lasse

  46. Where are they? by paladinwannabe2 · · Score: 1

    The Drake equation suggests there would be lots of intelligent life out there. The real question then becomes, Where are they?

    --
    You are reading a copy of my copyrighted post.
    1. Re:Where are they? by Ralgha · · Score: 1

      What makes anyone think that we will be able to recognize evidence of other life as evidence of other life? What makes anyone think that other life will be carbon based? What makes anyone think that we'll be able to recognize other life as life even if shoved in our collective face?

      Who's to say that there isn't life in the corona of the sun and we are simply incapable of detecting it?

    2. Re:Where are they? by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 1

      My favorite is Steven Baxter's Squeem. They were essentailly intelligent turbluence patterns in fluid.

      Personally I'm skeptical about any sort of life outside carbon based and *maybe* silicon, but I do enjoy an original SF alien design.

    3. Re:Where are they? by Jhan · · Score: 1
      My favorite is Steven Baxter's Squeem. They were essentailly intelligent turbluence patterns in fluid.

      No, those were the Qax. The Squeem were hive-minds, intelligent schools of fish.... Analogs...

      --

      I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.

  47. 28 Planets Later by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This Summer, from director Danny Boyle and written by Alex Garland...

    Five hundred years into the future (2507), the Milky Way Central Black Hole is failing, causing Earth XXVIII to enter an ice age. A spacecraft, the Icarus IV, with a crew of eight men and women is launched as a last hope, carrying a massive stellar bomb with a thermonuclear payload equivalent to the mass of Ballmer's ego in order to re-ignite the Black Hole.

  48. Methodology? by Enrique1218 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have questions about the methodolgy employed these discoveries. How much can we really know about these planets? For instance take the wobble method, we can infer the orbital period from the wobble (periodic changes in the star's spectrum). However, we still have some difficulty with the size of the planet and its orbital radius. First, if we are using Kepler's Third Law (P^2=4pi^2*OR^3/(G(M+m)), we would need know the mass of the star. What are the methods for determining that and how accurate are they? Then, we need to know either orbital radius or the mass of the planet to get the rest of the picture. Maybe the mass can be infer by the amplitdue of the wobble, but how is that calibrated? What if there are more than one planet (our system has 8 with four big ones)? How will the other planets affect the wobble? What about normal periodic solar activity like sunspots producing periodic changes in the spectrum that we are inferring as being cause by the wobble? (Our star spectrum changes every 11 years which is also the period of Jupiter). How accurate is the transit method? This being slashdot and all, we might better benefit if those with knowledge discuss the details behind these exoplanet "discoveries".

    --
    You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
  49. I hope... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    there are no niggers on them

  50. My guess by localman · · Score: 1

    I think it is a statistical certainty that there is other life in the universe. I think it is a statistical liklihood that there is other life in the galaxy.

    I also think it's a statistical certainty that we'll not find any in our lifetimes. And sometimes that makes me sad.

    1. Re:My guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to faith-based thinking.
      Statistically, we have only one data point for life, Earth - which means statistics are impossible.

      Sure you can try to call the Drake equation "statistics", but its nothing but a weak minded pander to the Star Trek contingent for NASA funding.

      Beyond the one data point, everything else is wishful thinking.

    2. Re:My guess by localman · · Score: 1

      Fair enough. I suppose if you flipped a coin once and it landed on heads, you'd say that it was statistically impossible to predict it would ever land on heads again, even if flipped several billion times. Fair enough.

    3. Re:My guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You really are weak minded aren't you. The probability of coin flipping is known, both by the parameters of the problem, and by observation. Do you understand how incredibly dense your post is in equating this with the origin of life?

      We have yet to duplicate the origin of life in the lab, which contradicts the "just add water" school of arguement. Consequently, we have no idea how life originally occured. This means we really have no idea what conditions are essential for the origination to occur. Lastly, we have little idea what conditions are "out there". Despite the hype, all they observed was a wobble from a star - and from this they guess it's half rock and half water ice!

      So to recap, don't call your fact-free wishfull thinking "staticstics", and quit modding your purile posts up.

    4. Re:My guess by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, coin flipping is the most common subject for any discussion of probabilities. First, if a two-headed coin comes up heads on the first toss, how many tosses till there is a 99% chance that it comes up tails at least once? The answer is never. As the experiment (creation of life) has never been duplicated even on Earth, we have the double headed coin scenario. Until we understand the critical parameters for the creation of life, or until we have sufficient observational data, we cannot talk about statistics. Period.

      Granted, because of your personal beliefs, you may not want to consider a universe that is not teaming with extra-terrestial beasties. Fair enough. That's not statistics, or science, or rational. It's faith.

    5. Re:My guess by localman · · Score: 1

      Oh cut the trollishness, it's an interesting thing to discuss. Perhaps I am as dense as gas giant, but I did say "flip a coin once", as in the first coin, first flip. Even so, would you say you'd never be able to guess the behavior of coin flipping? My point being that we can make predictions based on what seems reasonable without gathered statistics to back it up. I shouldn't have used the word "statistical" in my first post, you're absolutely right. But to assume that we can't make any reasonable predictions about the universe without statistics is foolishness. Many discoveries in science were made through thought experiment and not confirmed by empirical data until much later. This is why humans are better at figuring things out than computers: we can think about things and make reasonably good predictions.

      My guess, which is all I claimed my first post to be, is that if you take the common elements in the universe, and mix them up a quintillion times or so, it is reasonable to think that some complex self-replicating molecules will arise more than once. In fact, it sounds almost weak minded and faith based to believe anything else.

      But to each there own.

    6. Re:My guess by localman · · Score: 1

      Sorry, my example wasn't clear. I was asking us to imagine the first coin toss ever: no data no statistics (I shouldn't have used that word). I think that even if on that first toss it came up heads, we might be able to imagine that this was not the only way it could be. We might even be able to guess by modeling the coin flip in our minds that it might come up heads about half the time and tails half the time. I think we could guess all that before flipping it again. You're right: maybe that's faith, but it could also be called a hypothesis, no.

      I think we have the ability to draw conclusions without perfect data. In fact, isn't this how much science is done? Then we test the theories. I'm just theorizing that with all matter in the galaxy, and even more staggeringly in the universe, that self replicating molecules have been stirred up more than once. Considering the number of times they've been stirred, it seems a little strange to think that hasn't happened. But if the universe was truly empty of any other life, I'd be surprised but I would accept it. I am curious of your reasoning as to why in all the universe self replicating molecules would only arise once? Isn't that almost a mystical proposition?

      By the way, I'm not talking about a universe teeming with life, it could be exceedingly rare if it exists. And it might not be intelligent. This isn't about dreams of Star Trek for me, just legitimate scientific curiosity. I'm surprised it raised such ire with folks. Do you look down on Carl Sagan as well?

      Cheers.

    7. Re:My guess by localman · · Score: 1

      That was supposed to be "hypothesis, no?"; without the question mark I sound even more confused than I do usually :)

  51. Where in the Bible does it mention other planets? by nerdstrap · · Score: 0

    Obviously, this is a left wing conspiracy to make us believe aliens created life on Earth! Everyone knows Jesus was born to kill all of the dinosaurs that were eating God's chosen creations. When He was old enough, He started the NRA and breathed life into Charlton Heston. Together, they used every assault rifle imaginable to hunt down the dinosaurs and vegetarians.

  52. 1/8, not 2/9 by benhocking · · Score: 1

    Before the first exoplanet was discovered the fraction was 1/8 (or 1/9 if you're referring to what we called planets at that time). Still, your point is valid as the fraction is now down to 2/249. Neither Mars nor Venus lie in the habitable zone, although they are both close.

    For those not keeping up with the news, Gliese 581 c is the other planet we know of that is in a star's habitable zone.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
    1. Re:1/8, not 2/9 by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      Neither Mars nor Venus lie in the habitable zone, although they are both close.



      If their atmospheres were different, both Mars and Venus could sustain liquid water on their surface (or, at least, on parts of their surface). Mars most likely did have liquid water in the past, and it is assumed that Venus used to be cooler, too.

  53. Circular orbits are default by mangu · · Score: 2, Informative
    A large planetoid sweeping through the debris disk in a highly elliptical orbit is more likely to suffer a high-velocity collision that will break the planetoid into smaller chunks


    There's more than that. A planetoid in an eccentric orbit will be moving faster than the surrounding medium when it's closest to the star and slower than the medium when it's farthest. This means the orbit will be circularized, because the proto-planet will be slowed down by the dust in the accretion disk when its speed is highest and accelerated when its speed is smallest.


    In the early stages of the formation of the planetary system, with lots of matter in the accretion disk, this effect will circularize any orbit pretty fast, compared to planet formation times.


    All planets will be formed in circular orbits, it's the elliptical ones that are exceptional. Those planets suffered strong perturbations from one or more other bodies without being totally expelled from the system.


    But perhaps there is a reason why we are finding planets with such high eccentricity. We are finding first the very large planets with very low period orbits, this might be an improbable way for a planet to be formed in the first place. In our system the giant planets orbit more distant from the sun than the smaller planets. Perhaps those big planets we are finding were originally formed in the same distance from their suns as our gas giants, but were thrown into those very small period orbits by external perturbations.

  54. Maps? Charts? by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

    Now that our stellar neighborhood is becoming a little more complex than points of light, are there charts or (sky) maps out there that diagram these newly discovered planets and how their orbits might look?

    I've also often wondered why we don't have Eve Online-style maps of our own galaxy. Even if we don't know distances for some stars to any meaningful degree of accuracy, surely we could come up with a best guess, or represent stars as lines representing the range of possible distances.

    1. Re:Maps? Charts? by MMatessa · · Score: 1
      NASA's PlanetQuest page has a 3D map of stars with planets. Clicking on the stars brings up dynamic plots of their orbiting planets. NASA will be launching the SIM PlanetQuest space telescope to find Earth-sized planets.


      There's also a separate PlanetQuest distributed computing project that will allow people to search for planets from home using data from ground observatories.

    2. Re:Maps? Charts? by boldra · · Score: 1

      Celestia is also highly recommended as a 3d star map, although last time I checked there were only about 6 exoplanets.

      --
      I've been posting on the net since 1994 and I still haven't come up with a good sig!
  55. Star mass calculations by mangu · · Score: 4, Informative
    we would need know the mass of the star. What are the methods for determining that and how accurate are they?


    Mass of the star can be calculated from its spectrum and brightness. We have models for star formation, based on studies of the nuclear reactions that happen at the core. These stars are all relatively near, so the distance to several of them can be measured directly from the parallax. Knowing the type of the star and the distance, the mass can be calculated from the brightness.


    This book shows in an introductory way how it's done, with examples of all the calculations in BASIC. It's a very interesting book, highly recommended.

    1. Re:Star mass calculations by Enrique1218 · · Score: 1

      You didn't answer how accurate that was. I did some checking and the error in that method is 20-30% and the stars have to be main sequence. Overall, I wanted to point out the disconnect at the level of the laymen that makes it difficult for them to weigh the conclusions by experts in the field. Your solution was for the laymen to go read a book. However, that solution can be flawed if one does not have the time or the background to find out for himself. In this age, the level of scientific knowledge is too immense for there to be many renaissance persons. Thus, forums like Slashdot might serve better inform those concerned layman by having experts discuss the methodology and veracity of the conclusions. Outside of astronomy, such internet forums might be critical to the future of democracies where such conclusions as "Iraq has WMD's" can be weighed before action is supported.

      --
      You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
    2. Re:Star mass calculations by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      Overall, I wanted to point out the disconnect at the level of the laymen that makes it difficult for them to weigh the conclusions by experts in the field. Your solution was for the laymen to go read a book. However, that solution can be flawed if one does not have the time or the background to find out for himself. You complain that you don't have the time to find out for yourself, but your proposed solution is for experts to take their time to pick the paper's methodology apart on Slashdot at a level of detail which meets with your satisfaction? Nice in theory, but not very practical, and not entirely fair. The number of such experts is small, most of them do not read Slashdot, and those who do probably don't have very much free time to accommodate such requests. Note that you didn't get any responses with that level of detail, and criticized the one person who tried to be helpful by pointing you in the right direction. Every once in a while an actual exoplanet astronomer will wander into these threads and have some time to write detailed posts, but you certainly can't expect it.

      The questions are good, but if you're concerned about the accuracy of the methods, you realistically are probably going to have to find some textbook or article which presents such calculations with error bars, rather than asking for a personalized tutorial. (But hey, it doesn't hurt to ask... just don't complain if you don't get it.)
    3. Re:Star mass calculations by Enrique1218 · · Score: 1

      I was referring more to hobbyists and possibly students who may frequent the site as evident by the fact that the story got posted in the first place. Somebody had enough interest to read it and submit it. I did in fact take the time to read a scientific paper detailing the how the measurement was made and what laws were used to infer the planets characteristics. I can tell that I would not understand half as much as I did if I didn't have a degree in physics. In any rate, there is a disconnect in this modern age that is certainly not helped by either the education system or the media. It is pretty benign in the case of exoplanet discoveries but it dangerous in other places. My point is that forums like Slashdot can help to educate more people about many different issues when others means are not available. If you think that such a request is unfeasible, what is your solution to the disconnect?

      --
      You don't have to be smart to use a Mac, you just have to be smart enough to buy one
    4. Re:Star mass calculations by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

      I was referring more to hobbyists and possibly students who may frequent the site as evident by the fact that the story got posted in the first place. Somebody had enough interest to read it and submit it. It's news which is interesting to hobbyists and students, yes, but that doesn't mean that hobbyists and students should expect experts to be available to answer detailed methodological questions about the research.

      My point is that forums like Slashdot can help to educate more people about many different issues when others means are not available. Yes, it can educate people. That's a major reason why Slashdot stories have comments threads.

      But, as I said, it's not really fair to expect that experts can and should take the time to answer all of your detailed questions for free, nor to complain when someone who tried to help you didn't provide enough detail to suit you.

      If an expert does help you out, be grateful that someone took the time out of their busy research to help an earnest hobbyist. And don't be ungrateful if one doesn't.

      If you think that such a request is unfeasible, what is your solution to the disconnect? To paraphrase Euclid, there is no royal road to science. Honestly, the only reliable solution is for interested parties to study the science involved themselves. It's great when experts can write tutorials and introductory essays explaining the methods behind the science, but this can only cover a small fraction of the scientific findings which catch the public's eyes. Active research scientists can only spend so much of their time on educational outreach. The best you can expect in most cases is for pointers to references you should read, not a whole expert analysis handed to you on a silver platter.
  56. Awful lot of detail by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If the presence of the planet can only be inferred by the wobble of the star, how do they come to the conclussion that it's half rock, and half ice? The distance and mass can be inferred by the magnitude and periodicity of the wobble, but the composition? Whatever they are basing this supposition on, until it can be verfied by another means (you know, scientific method and all), isn't just speculation?

  57. Re:Why are... by Aram+Fingal · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Why are we even LOOKING at other planets when we haven't solved the problems on our own?

    Space offers solutions to many of those problems. Some problems are related to lack of resources and others to social problems. Space offers unlimited resources compared to what we can get here on Earth. Projects like asteroid mining and space-based solar power are not all that far off from today's technology and they could solve some of our major problems. On the social side, exploration of space can be a unifying theme which will help people to put aside their differences.

    Some other social problems, which come from human nature, will never go away and we can't let that hold us back.

  58. Come on. Whats going on ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

    For 30-40 years we have been searching the space and we were not able to find many planets until last few years. And suddenly we find 26. what the heck is going on ? Were these already found and being hidden from the public ?

    1. Re:Come on. Whats going on ? by wikinerd · · Score: 1

      It's very easy to repeat something already done. Any techniques, theories, and technology used for the discovery have been practically proven after the first discovery, and other scientists are more willing to invest their precious time on theories and techniques that are proven to produce results. Furthermore, discovering things is usually very good for your career (but not always - depending on where you live and how you communicate your findings you may find yourself in trouble, eg Galileo). After a scientist discovers something entirely new, others want to give a boost to their careers as well, so they are trying to repeat the discovery in order to seem equal to the first discoverer.

    2. Re:Come on. Whats going on ? by unity100 · · Score: 1

      come on. TWENTY SIX in just one flash ? isnt it a bit too much ?

    3. Re:Come on. Whats going on ? by wikinerd · · Score: 1

      They are over our heads, and they are many. Most stars should have more than one exoplanet around them, and there are a wholla lot of stars out there. The only thing we need to discover them is good equipment and determination. There are many people with determination to discover exoplanets. We only have to look at the sky and utilise the proper equipment and methods (there are two methods for exoplanet detection: one is to detect gravitational anomalies that can be explained only by the presence of a big ball of mass in orbit around the star, ie a planet, and the other method is to detect the dimming of a star's light when a planet passes in front of them - the problem is that both methods work best with planets that are either too big or too close to their star, or both, and what would be a breakthrough in exoplanet research would be the development of a method for discovering very small objects in orbit around stars, eg small planets, moons, and asteroids). If you think about it, Galileo discovered 4 moons around Jupiter within one week, because we had the right tool and the determination to use it. Here you can see what he saw with his telescope, 4 balls (the moons) around a big ball (Jupiter). All discovered in a single week, just because they were already there and someone had the motivation to look at them.

  59. Ok, I'm convinced by jd · · Score: 1

    Mea culpa. I shall bow to the wisdom of the Great Minds. :) Seriously, now it's written out in both the parent and grandparent post to this, it's pretty clear-cut. (Being wrong is never fun, but it gives me a chance to learn from the experts.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  60. Earth-like, Please by sanman2 · · Score: 1

    I don't care about all this high-fallutin' life finding. I'm interested in finding a planet that's like our beautiful Earth, and not genetically altering myself so that I can live on a volcanic vent like exotic bacteria.

    We should want more Earths, so that we can have more green pastures to graze in and enjoy ourselves on. We can't get there from here anway, you say? Bah, where there's a will, there's a way. Once people see there are other places worth getting to, they'll set about finding ways to get there. Even if they have to probe physics more deeply, to find ways past the limitations that currently bind us.

    There's no reason why we can't look for deeper physics that could be useful for interstellar travel. Certainly, once we find other worlds beckoning us with their beauty, we'll feel all the more motivated to do so.

  61. Patents? by aelvin · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else read the headline as "28 New Patents Found Outside Solar System"?

    I gotta stop reading all these GPLv3 drafts....

    1. Re:Patents? by Kesha · · Score: 1

      I sure did. Yeah, I wonder how many extraterastrial patents the humanity is infringing so far? And what will we do when they ask us to cease and desist?

  62. Inside Outside Upside Down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Sure is a relief. Breaking news: 28 Planets Found Inside the Solar System! That would be the time to worry.

  63. cue Firefly by rarel · · Score: 1

    I want to go to the crappy planet where I'm a hero!

  64. Re:Why are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shipping all the beaners, niggers, and towelheads to another planet will solve our problems.

  65. Re:Why are... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm pleased to note that no hippie luddites responded in agreement.

  66. Astronomical by cbhacking · · Score: 1

    Odds that such a planet exists anywhere is astronomical

    How ironic, since the very science tasked with discovering that planet is astronomy.

    Seriously, after re-writing your statement to be more consistent and logical, something like "The probability against such a planet existing is astronomical", your argument is somewhere on the continuum from downright wrong to true but unprovable. After all, the number of planets to consider is also astronomical, even without our own galaxy. Add other galaxies (there are multiple galaxies in the volume of space occluded by the head of a pin at arm's length, generally all of which are so far away we don't even see them as point light sources) and you have an essentially infinite number of planets.

    Since we know there's a finite chance of life developing (unless you prefer the deity-created-us-all-and-nobody-else argument, which I'm not even going to bother debating right now) it is pretty much a staticistical certainly that life has developed elsewhere. Might be bloody far away, but in an expanding universe where new stars and planets are constantly being formed, life is out there. Until the universe collapses (or the human race ceases to exist) all we can say is that we haven't found life yet. On the other hand, once we find even a single example, we'll know Earth wasn't alone.
    --
    There's no place I could be, since I've found Serenity...
  67. ... and she's only got one head.. by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1

    what kind of backward planet full of ugly beings does she come from?

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  68. THANK YOU by Wabbit+Wabbit · · Score: 1

    At least I'm not the only one who though of Star Tekkin' by The Firm when I read that.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=FlTMXiqbDZU

    --
    Nothing is inexplicable; only unexplained -Tom Baker, Doctor Who
  69. Blue balls? by thrawn_aj · · Score: 1

    28 New Planets Found Outside Solar System And meanwhile I'm stuck in stupid f***ing suburbia dreaming of galactic empires :P.
  70. THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT !!!!! by JohnRoss1968 · · Score: 1, Funny

    >(From OMNI, April 1991. This story, which was a 1991 Nebula nominee, has been appearing around the internet lately without my name attached. Several people were kind enough to alert me, but the truth is I'm more flattered than offended. ) THEY'RE MADE OUT OF MEAT by Terry Bisson "They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "Meat. They're made out of meat." "Meat?" "There's no doubt about it. We picked up several from different parts of the planet, took them aboard our recon vessels, and probed them all the way through. They're completely meat." "That's impossible. What about the radio signals? The messages to the stars?" "They use the radio waves to talk, but the signals don't come from them. The signals come from machines." "So who made the machines? That's who we want to contact." "They made the machines. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Meat made the machines." "That's ridiculous. How can meat make a machine? You're asking me to believe in sentient meat." "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. These creatures are the only sentient race in that sector and they're made out of meat." "Maybe they're like the orfolei. You know, a carbon-based intelligence that goes through a meat stage." "Nope. They're born meat and they die meat. We studied them for several of their life spans, which didn't take long. Do you have any idea what's the life span of meat?" "Spare me. Okay, maybe they're only part meat. You know, like the weddilei. A meat head with an electron plasma brain inside." "Nope. We thought of that, since they do have meat heads, like the weddilei. But I told you, we probed them. They're meat all the way through." "No brain?" "Oh, there's a brain all right. It's just that the brain is made out of meat! That's what I've been trying to tell you." "So ... what does the thinking?" "You're not understanding, are you? You're refusing to deal with what I'm telling you. The brain does the thinking. The meat." "Thinking meat! You're asking me to believe in thinking meat!" "Yes, thinking meat! Conscious meat! Loving meat. Dreaming meat. The meat is the whole deal! Are you beginning to get the picture or do I have to start all over?" "Omigod. You're serious then. They're made out of meat." "Thank you. Finally. Yes. They are indeed made out of meat. And they've been trying to get in touch with us for almost a hundred of their years." "Omigod. So what does this meat have in mind?" "First it wants to talk to us. Then I imagine it wants to explore the Universe, contact other sentiences, swap ideas and information. The usual." "We're supposed to talk to meat." "That's the idea. That's the message they're sending out by radio. 'Hello. Anyone out there. Anybody home.' That sort of thing." "They actually do talk, then. They use words, ideas, concepts?" "Oh, yes. Except they do it with meat." "I thought you just told me they used radio." "They do, but what do you think is on the radio? Meat sounds. You know how when you slap or flap meat, it makes a noise? They talk by flapping their meat at each other. They can even sing by squirting air through their meat." "Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much. So what do you advise?" "Officially or unofficially?" "Both." "Officially, we are required to contact, welcome and log in any and all sentient races or multibeings in this quadrant of the Universe, without prejudice, fear or favor. Unofficially, I advise that we erase the records and forget the whole thing." "I was hoping you would say that." "It seems harsh, but there is a limit. Do we really want to make contact with meat?" "I agree one hundred percent. What's there to say? 'Hello, meat. How's it going?' But will this work? How many planets are we dealing with here?" "Just one. They can travel to other planets in special meat containers, but they can't live on them. And being meat, they can only travel through C space. Which limits them to the speed of light and makes the possibility of their ever making contact pretty slim. Infinitesimal, in fact." "So we just pretend ther

  71. Mod parent Insightful by Woldry · · Score: 1

    Some other social problems, which come from human nature, will never go away and we can't let that hold us back.

    Man, I wish I had mod points. The whole post is damn insightful, but this last sentence should be emblazoned on cards to hand to every person who rants "Why are we even doing X when we haven't solved Y yet?" -- especially since the whiners are usually the ones doing nothing to solve Y OR to do X.

    --
    How can a post be modded "overrated" or "underrated" when it hasn't been rated yet?
    1. Re:Mod parent Insightful by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 1

      Another part of that argument is the simple fact that each human being has individual talents (or lack thereof).

      Maybe it's absurd that extravagant celebrities make a living flaunting their nipples at parties, but I doubt we'd be much better off if Paris Hilton was educating kids in Africa or performing brain surgery. People who work at NASA/ESA simply work in a field that matches their competence and interests and forcing them to do something they'd absolutely suck at wouldn't exactly solve world problems either.

    2. Re:Mod parent Insightful by harry666t · · Score: 1

      > (...) forcing them to do something they'd absolutely suck at wouldn't exactly solve world problems either.

      We're good at X so we'll do X. I wasn't talking about forcing guys from project X to do Y. I know it won't work. But why nobody even cares about Y? Sure there are people who are willing to take care of Y, but $GUY_WITH_LOTS_OF_MONEY is more interested in making more money, or seeing what will come out of X, or is just simply ignoring Y. Well, do you really think that $GUY_WITH_LOTS_OF_MONEY deserves every single of his bloody dollars while people in Africa are dying of hunger each day?

      And the war. Does it cost money to put down all the weapons (except if giving up producing them)? The human race hasn't changed anything for thousands of years. Is there really no other way to "solve" some of our "problems" but with a gun?

      Well, I ain't just saying "stop staring at the sky", but, more like "can you sometimes look at the earth as well?".

      And by the way, I think communism isn't such a bad idea, it's the latest implementation attempt that was so shitty...

  72. Solar System? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How many stars out there are named Sol? There must be many to all be called Solar Systems, instead of just regular star systems.

  73. What about our own solar system? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Can any of this research be used to find other planets in our own solar system?
    Doesn't it seem far-sighted that we claim to see so much way outside our system and yet can't track our own trans-neptunians? Let alone look for killer meteors like Apophis?

  74. No disagreement by benhocking · · Score: 1

    I was just referring to the habitable zone as defined by the article I linked to. I do agree that it is overly conservative - depending on the mass/magnetic fields of the planets in questions (and hence the type of atmosphere they're likely to have), planets in the Venus or Mars zone could also contain liquid water. Similarly, planets in the Earth zone might not be able to contain liquid water.

    However, if you want to argue that it was 2/8 or even 3/8, then now it's at least 3/249 or 4/249. I.e., the number has gone up by 1.

    --
    Ben Hocking
    Need a professional organizer?
  75. "Extreme" is relative. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
    Whoever wrote the article doesn't know about the life that lives around volcanic vents deep in the ocean or the things living deep underground at extreme temps and pressures.



    The "extreme" in "extremophile" refers to being "just" outside the relatively narrow temperature range that most life we know needs to work best. So while human enzymes need about 36 degrees Celsius to do their stuff best, an extremophile microbe might have enzymes that work best at 60 or at 6 degrees Celsius. That doesn't contradict the observation that it's just too cold for most chemical reactions to occur at a speed necessary for life on a frozen iceball like Pluto, and that temperatures over, say, 200 degrees Celsius are not very conducive to forming the long molecules that life needs.

  76. Re:Why are... by Ambitwistor · · Score: 1

    Projects like asteroid mining and space-based solar power are not all that far off from today's technology and they could solve some of our major problems. That doesn't quite answer the question of why we should be looking at extrasolar planets, but that aside: will such projects really solve some of our major problems? It's taken as an axiom among space enthusiasts, but I'm not so sure. I was reminded of that issue by this essay. I think there are reasons why such projects have not taken off. It's not because our technology isn't quite there yet, it's because it doesn't make economic sense. Arguably, we already have the technology. It's the cost that's the problem; it would have to become many orders of magnitude cheaper for asteroid mining to make economic sense. ... and I'm not even getting into the military-political implications of putting giant chunks of metal or power broadcasting stations into Earth orbit ... I suspect other countries would flip out if any nation proposed doing that.
  77. Somewhat inaccurate by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    That's somewhat inaccurate, as far as I know. AFAIK CFCs aren't greenhouse gasses, but make a hole in the ozone layer.

    Mind you, at least one mass extinction is assumed to have been because of losing the ozone layer to a gamma ray burst. Still, this probably wouldn't wipe out all life (and it historically didn't.) UV only goes so far into water, and not at all into Earth.

    If you want to do better than CO2, may I humbly suggest the tried-and-tested methane? It does some 200 times better than CO2. No doubt some synthetic stuff might do better, but this one's at least cheap. There's a shitload of the stuff in frozen peat bogs in Siberia. Warm the planet just enough to defrost Siberia by other means (e.g., CO2), and you might just see a helluva lot of methane escaping.

    Who knows? With a bit of luck we may even do better than Venus. Venus has to do with only CO2, since it lost all hydrogen. With methane we can actually end up warmer.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Somewhat inaccurate by Ihlosi · · Score: 1
      That's somewhat inaccurate, as far as I know. AFAIK CFCs aren't greenhouse gasses, but make a hole in the ozone layer.

      It's accurate. In addition to making holes in the ozone layer, CFCs are also greenhouse gases that are several thousand times as strong as CO2. However, the relatively small amounts released on Earth do not contribute significantly to the greenhouse effect. However ... if we were to deliberately manufacture the stuff and release it into the atmosphere in large quantities, things might be different.

      If you want to do better than CO2, may I humbly suggest the tried-and-tested methane?

      Methan isn't stable, especially not in an oxygen-rich atmosphere like Earth's.

      It does some 200 times better than CO2.

      CFCs do a few thousand times better. And they're not poisonous, so we might even get to experience Earth turning into hell.

      There's a shitload of the stuff in frozen peat bogs in Siberia. Warm the planet just enough to defrost Siberia by other means (e.g., CO2), and you might just see a helluva lot of methane escaping.

      Yep, that's what I meand by "runaway". Once you warm the atmosphere enough, several things will add to the greenhouse effect. The trapped methane is one of them, the ability of a warmer atmosphere to hold more water vapor (also a greenhouse gas) is another.

  78. Basic nuclear physics. by Ihlosi · · Score: 1

    "rare" is relative term, high mass stars can have sulphur and silicon in their core. There are billions of those in the universe. Just like there are high chlorine content stars, big universe, lots of possibilities. Still, the nuclear binding energy curve (google for it, I'm too lazy) shows plainly _why_ there's more carbon and oxygen than other heavy elements. Both elements lie at a local maximum of the binding energy curve. The elements for life "as we know it" are much, much more abundant than those for life that works with oddball chemistry, so it's a very good guess to say that alien life is most likely carbon based, too.

    1. Re:Basic nuclear physics. by iggymanz · · Score: 1

      rather than looking at binding energy, why not just look at relative abundance in the universe of elements? Carbon (4,600 ppm) only ten times as abundant as sulfur (440 ppm). Nitrogen is absolutely as essential as carbon and oxygen, and is 950 ppm. Silicon at 650 ppm is still "abundant".

  79. Near Light Speed Space Ship is Man's Future by nlspropulsion · · Score: 1