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Novell Worries About GPL v3
An anonymous reader writes "In its annual report for the fiscal year ended October 31, 2006, Novell expressed concerns over how the new version of the GPL may affect their business. Microsoft might stop distributing Suse coupons if the GPL version 3 interferes with their agreement or puts Microsoft's patents at risk, ultimately causing Novell's business and operating results to be adversely affected."
What shock!
In other news, water is wet, fire still burns to the touch, and we still refuse to make a distinction between Microsoft, and those who harbor them.
But this is slashdot. A slashdoter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber!
The pet store was selling them for five cents a piece.
I thought this was odd since they were normally a couple thousand.
I decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth so I bought 200 of them.
I like nerds.
I took my 200 nerds home. I have a big car. I let one of drive. His name was Taco. He was retarded. In fact, none of them were really bright. They kept punching themselves in the genitals. I laughed. They punched me in the genitals. I stopped laughing.
I herded them into my room. They didn't adapt very well to their new environment. They would screech and hurl themselves off the couch at high speeds and slam into the wall. Although humorous at first, the spectacle lost its novelty halfway into it's third hour.
Two hours later I found out why all the nerds were so inexpensive; they all died. No apparent reason. They all just sort of dropped dead. Kinda like when you buy a goldfish and it dies five hours later.
Damn cheap nerds.
I didn't know what to do. There were 200 dead nerds lying all over my room; on the bed, in the dresser, hanging from my bookcase. It looked like I had 200 throw rugs.
I tried to flush one down the toilet. It didn't work. It got stuck. Then I had one dead, wet nerd and one hundred ninety-nine dead, dry nerds.
I tried to pretend that they were just stuffed animals. That worked for awhile, that is until they began to decompose. It started to smell real bad. I had to pee but there was a dead nerd in my toilet and I didn't want to call a plumber. I was embarrassed.
I tried to slow down the decomposition by freezing them. Unfortuntely there was only enough room for two at a time, so I had to change them every 30 seconds. I also had to eat all the food in the freezer so it didn't go bad.
I tried to burn them, but little did I know that my bed was flammable. I had to extinguish the fire. Then I had one dead, wet nerd in my toilet, two dead, frozen nerds in my freezer, and one hundred ninety-seven dead, charred nerds in a pile on my bed,
The odor wasn't improving.
I became agitated at my inability to dispose of the dead nerds and I really had to use the bathroom. So I went and severely beat one of the nerds. I felt better.
I tried throwing them away but the garbage man said the city was not allowed to dispose of charred primates. I told him I had a wet one. He couldn't take it either. I didn't bother asking about the frozen ones.
I finally arrived at a solution. I gave them out as Christmas gifts. My friends didn't quite know what to say. They pretended to like them, but I could tell they were lying. Ingrates. So I punched them in the genitals.
I like nerds.
Smile, don't click...
We should not have made this bargain.
In these filings you have to state EVERYTHING you may ever think of that could even slightly affect your stock price, or bear the brunt of a multi-million dollar shareholder lawsuit later if it hiccups in the slightest. The fact that they stated this doesn't imply any amount of actual fear of the GPL, just that it's something they need to be aware of.
Not quite "nothing to see here, move along" but definitely not a tabloid headline.
Par for the course.
As a dying and irrelevant company, Novell aquires a linux distribution to save themselves, and summarily get in bed with Microsoft, who essentially would prefer to either cage or completely destroy FOSS. Within this "tasty little eggroll" is the fact that Novell seems to forget that FOSS isn't just software but a social movement.
It is a software movement pushed forward by and large by the people who actually are responsible for running large segments of the internet and computer infrastructure worldwide. Linux has been taken well past Linus Torvald's initial vision because there was a *need* for an alternative in the data center.
Novell should be worried- very worried. First, their distribution isn't all that good in my experience. Debian and Redhat basically bury it in important areas (cost, stability and Q&A- pick two). Second, they get in bed with Microsoft, a company that provides more frustration per byte than any other software company in history.
I revert to a lame Star Trek quote:
Spock: "They are dying" (in reference to the Klingons)
Kirk: "Let them die!!"
I've never used Suse, but have tested the distro, and talked with their reps. I never used them because I think their product is below par. The Microsoft deal again reinforces the decisions I made for clients who expend a great deal of money on data infrastructure and expect a minimum of frustration.
Evolution works people. Sit back and grab a coffee.
Another consultant who stuck it out.
"We are the Priests, of the Temples of Syrinx..."
Please, OSS community, let us trample on your work product! What will we do if we can't leech of someone else? We need you. We need you to play nice with us and our task.. uh.. I mean business partners.
Power to the Penguin!
Ok, let me sum this up... Novel makes money selling Linux. They make money off the work of thousands of developers. Novel knew that the community as a whole dislikes M$... they knew that a large portion of OpenSource developers hate M$ with a passion... They enter into a contract with M$ anyway. Some people publicly call them traitors and worse and are now responding to the way Novel disregarded what they wanted. Licenses change and some projects stopped providing RPMS for SuSE. Its just fair - in a community we're in it together. If you do something I don't like, I have the right to do something you don't like. Or in other words, don't piss off the people on who's back you make money.
Yes, I surely do feel sorry for Novel.
Peter.
Thought even after GPL 3 comes out authors had the right to choose which license they could use. People may very well stick to GPL 2, or dual license.
How is the GNAA It'5 best to try arrogance was continues 7o lose Developers United States of To yet another
Sleep with dogs, wake with fleas
Note, that they also listed the SCO lawsuit as a risk in the report, and we all know how likely that is.
What is the exact loophole that Novel is using that GPL3 is supposed to fix? There seems to be several stories over the whole Novel/MS deal, but I have yet to actually read what about the GPL that was wrong that someone (assuming they did) abused it.
Dear Novell:
Didn't anyone tell you that if you sleep with dogs, you'll get fleas.
The pet store was selling them for five cents a piece.
I thought this was odd since they were normally a couple thousand.
I decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth so I bought 200 of them.
I like trolls.
I took my 200 trolls home. I have a big car. I let one of drive. His name was Adolf. He was retarded. In fact, none of them were really bright. They kept punching themselves in the genitals. I laughed. They punched me in the genitals. I stopped laughing.
I herded them into my room. They didn't adapt very well to their new environment. They would screech and hurl themselves off the couch at high speeds and slam into the wall. Although humorous at first, the spectacle lost its novelty halfway into it's third hour.
Two hours later I found out why all the trolls were so inexpensive; they all died. No apparent reason. They all just sort of dropped dead. Kinda like when you buy a goldfish and it dies five hours later.
Damn cheap trolls.
I didn't know what to do. There were 200 dead trolls lying all over my room; on the bed, in the dresser, hanging from my bookcase. It looked like I had 200 throw rugs.
I tried to flush one down the toilet. It didn't work. It got stuck. Then I had one dead, wet troll and one hundred ninety-nine dead, dry trolls.
I tried to pretend that they were just stuffed animals. That worked for awhile, that is until they began to decompose. It started to smell real bad. I had to pee but there was a dead troll in my toilet and I didn't want to call a plumber. I was embarrassed.
I tried to slow down the decomposition by freezing them. Unfortuntely there was only enough room for two at a time, so I had to change them every 30 seconds. I also had to eat all the food in the freezer so it didn't go bad.
I tried to burn them, but little did I know that my bed was flammable. I had to extinguish the fire. Then I had one dead, wet troll in my toilet, two dead, frozen trolls in my freezer, and one hundred ninety-seven dead, charred trolls in a pile on my bed,
The odor wasn't improving.
I became agitated at my inability to dispose of the dead trolls and I really had to use the bathroom. So I went and severely beat one of the trolls. I felt better.
I tried throwing them away but the garbage man said the city was not allowed to dispose of charred primates. I told him I had a wet one. He couldn't take it either. I didn't bother asking about the frozen ones.
I finally arrived at a solution. I gave them out as Christmas gifts. My friends didn't quite know what to say. They pretended to like them, but I could tell they were lying. Ingrates. So I punched them in the genitals.
I like trolls.
No returns. Thanks for the millions. Sorry you can't use the coupons as you intended. They make lovely wallpaper, though.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
After all, how is Miguel De Icaza gonna be able to spend all his time on copying stupid MS tech?
I've always wondered where patent cross licensing enters the debate. Almost certainly, Microsoft and IBM have cross licensing agreements that give MS access to all IBM patents and vice versa. That means that IBM, a Linux distributor, probably already has access to all of MS's patents including the the alleged 228 or 235 or whatever allegedly infringed but unidentified patents. So maybe IBM owes MS some percentage of the revenue on its sales of Linux. Oh yeah, I'll bet MS is more than welcome to half of the zero dollars IBM collects from Linux sales. Ha ha! IBM's Linux money comes from support contracts; something MS has no patents on. I'm sure there's an error in my logic somewhere -- I hope the slashdot community is not too shy to help identify it.
--- Often in error; never in doubt!
I personally like SuSE, OpenExchange (Not covered by the MS agreement) and Novell's open source products. It is disappointing to see them needlessly jeopardize a great open source business model by continuing with this MS agreement farce. I would hate to see Novell tank because of this, but isn't inevitable when playing both sides of fence?
One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
lol @ #buttes failures!
Why would they be? It's "beta". But that's not the point. Of course anyone can publish their intellectual property under any license they feel like. But obviously, companies that are invested in the dreaded DRA and have associations with other companies that do, will be nervous.
I think that hardware companies that use embedded OSS have the most to fear, as it opens up a huge can of worms for product liability and support, especially with the so-called "mission critical" applications. Many such companies feel the need to standardize and lock in on a specific set of often specially modified code that has been customized and tuned to their specific hardware. Allowing unrestricted modifications to the underlying software presents a spectrum of potential problems.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
Although GPL2 states that if you give away code under GPL, anyone has the rights to the code under the GPL. Even if your code is patented (by you) you get the right to the patent (else the code is worthless: you can copy it but can't run it).
MS/Novell are saying "MS aren't parties to the GPL because they aren't copying the code and Novell aren't licensing the patents" which means that MS don't have to allow GPL use of their patents in GPL code (because they didn't write it) and Novell don't have the right to the patents they add from MS "to enhance interoperability" so they can't give those rights to any other GPL customer.
Read Graklaw (reference the Notaduck).
Didn't anyone tell you that if you sleep with Microsoft, you'll get fleeced.
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Good.
What if I do the same thing, and I do get different results?
open source is open source, with or without a license... i generally dont really care about licenses...
whats a Suse coupon?
making business deals with microsoft is sort of like stepping in dog poo, it always stinks and nobody wants to be near you afterwards, and nobody wants you in their house or place of business with that on your shoes...
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Great that Novell now has to "express concerns" in its annual report.
What fun they could have had with MS as an affiliate.
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
Sorry about your luck, Novell.
There is a war going on for your mind.
slightly OT but a few moons ago there was an article where a high level microsoftie posibly Gates or Ballmer gave a quote something like (paraphrasing from distant memory):
"we didn't know how to fight linux, its like some strange alien thing to us, then novell bought suse, and we smiled - because beating novell is something we have done before, they are suckers, its gonna be easy"
A while back i decided this would make a great sig and googled high and low, but to no avail. Perhaps it was on an MS friendly news-site and has subsequently been purged. Does this ring any bells? Does anyone have a link to an article with a quote vaguely similar? It would be much appreciated thank you please.
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
Basically Novell went over to Goatse's house with a big jar of vaseline and now they are wondering why they came out sore.
General, you are listening to a machine! Do the world a favor and don't act like one.
Microsoft might stop distributing Suse coupons if the GPL version 3 interferes with their agreement or puts Microsoft's patents at risk, ultimately causing Novell's business and operating results to be adversely affected
Wow, what a crying shame that would be. The company that sullied themselves getting in bed with Microsoft being adversely affected. Excuse me while I work up a little tear.
How's that old saying go? Lie down with dogs, get up with fleas.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I had a lot of hopes for Novell.. but.. they thought they could work around that pesky GPL. Let that be a lesson to em..
Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
Had the deal been with Red Hat, IBM, or whoever, Novell would still be rightly shunned. The patent agreement itself is what stinks. (Although Microsoft admittedly adds stink in their own unparalleled way.)
>That means that IBM, a Linux distributor
Do you have any evidence of this? Links to IBM distributing linux, or links where you can buy GNU/Linux from IBM (and only IBM, not one of their intermediates who I believe they use for the exact purpose of NOT becoming linux distributors. But I've been wrong before).
"If the final version of GPLv3 contains terms or conditions that interfere with our agreement with Microsoft or our ability to distribute GPLv3 code, Microsoft may cease to distribute Suse Linux coupons in order to avoid the extension of its patent covenants to a broader range of GPLv3 software recipients," Novell stated in the document"
.. nice.
;).
Well DOH, the 'covenant' only applies to a very restricted set of NOVL customers and specifically excludes downstream providers or developers of 'Original Work'. The pledge also lays claim to 'Original Work' and excludes openSuSE developers from working on their own code in company time. Any such work must also be rolled back into Novell SuSE. Not much of a covenant then.
Wow there, I just noticed something, it don't say original code, but original work, thereby extending the coverage to properties and methods? If this was cricket that would be know as throwing a googly
'1.10 "Customers" means an enterprise or individual that utilizes a specific copy of a Covered Product for its intended purpose as authorized by a Party in consideration for Revenue'
What is the definition of 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes' in the current context. Who defines 'intended purpose' and 'utilizes'. If these terms are not defined (I can't find them) or can be arbitarly changed by either party at a future date then of what use is it to me the 'customer' as a legal document. I'm not a lawyer, but this says to me the 'pledge' can be revoked at any time. By either party I assume. I do assume the NOVL lawyers got one too. I can't see it! I do assume the NOVL lawyers actually read it before signing!
"In addition, Microsoft reserves the right to prospectively update and revise the terms of this pledge"
A close reading of the 'covenant' and associated documents reveals its true purpose, to drive a wedge between the Commercial Sector and Open Source developers.
MICROSOFT - NOVELL PATENT COOPERATION AGREEMENT --
translation: I pledge not to sue you for indeterminate IP violations for a period that can be arbitrary revised, extended, canceled by me at any time. You agree that I own your own original work - not just code
davecb5620@gmail.com
The distros should just follow Debian's lead with "non-free" and sequester all GPL3 apps to their own optional disc. That should alleviate any fears from corporate users and resellers.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
"or puts Microsoft's patents at risk, "
they are worried about Micro$oft.
Oh weird, you sold your soul to the devil and now everyone thinks your a traitor and hates you. Weird.
...surely there's a down side too?
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
It looks like some 40% of the Linux kernel is GPL v2 or later.
How much Linux kernel code is GPL v2 only?
That is not to suggest that parts of the kernel can be distributed under the GPL v3. That would require some careful study of the licenses to work out whether it would be consider just an aggregation of parts.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Anything I post is strictly my own thoughts and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the opinions of IBM.
Some time after the introduction of GPL v3, Novell might end up as the only company in the Linux distribution business that is not permitted to distribute kernel 2.6.xx in any form.
Business adversely affected? You bet.
Nobody (except MS people) has told little Ron and his colleagues to sign this foolish deal with Microsoft.
Next time, Novell, you better look before you leap.
But wait - there won't be a next time for you and your company? Too bad.
When you dig your own ditch you have to be careful not to fall in. NOVELL should of known better.
1 (base 10 integer) + 1 (base 10 integer) doesn't equal 2 (base 10 integer) because I can't spell.
Man your dumb.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
"Almost certainly, Microsoft and IBM have cross licensing agreements that give MS access to all IBM patents and vice versa."
Any cross licensing agreements are problably for IBM proprietary code. As long as IBM did not include open source software in their cross licensing agreement with Microsoft then we have no problem with the IBM-Microsoft agreement.
The same could be said for Novell. If Novell had a software patent cross licensing agreement which only applied to Novell's proprietary code then we would have no problem with the agreement. But because Novell included open source code in their agreement with Microsoft we have major problems with Novell.
-------------
Steve Stites
"It's a trap!"
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Not sure it's relevant, but at one point, IBM did have some sort of internal-only Linux desktop environment going. Don't think they were distributing it externally, though.
IIRC it was RedHat based. I knew some people who got their hands on it because it was all set up for running on ThinkPads.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Its responses to news like this that really illustrates what's wrong with the OSS community. Novell's deal with Microsoft didn't break the spirit of the GPLv2. The first fact everyone has to accept is that RMS's vision of software development is unrealistic at best and fanatical at worst.
You people are crucifying the company that popularized XGL, the only reason Linux desktops have been able to scoff at Vista and OS-X's functionality, because they made a simple business decision that anyone thinking about trying to pay their developers for their hard work would have made.
Novell has customers for SuSE. Believe it or not, some people actually pay for their software, not just on principle, but because they want assurances. They want to know the software is stable, and furthermore, legally legitimate. OSS already has to deal with the unfair assumption that free software must be illegal (which, while it may sound ludicrous to us, is a very real impression in the business world).
When Microsoft comes to Novell with a list of patents that Linux might be infringing, Novell knows that the NEXT people they'll be going to is the customers. I don't know who Novell's customers are, but I'm guessing many of them are businesses that aren't rich enough to afford a Microsoft solution. Likely, they are business that can't afford a patent lawsuit from Microsoft, either.
So what does Novell do? Sign an agreement with Microsoft that assures their customers that whatever the result of a patent lawsuit may be, SuSE will still be legal for them to use. The "right" thing for the OSS community might have been, on principle, to let Microsoft sink Novell with unfounded patent threats that they could only diffuse with an SCO-sized lawsuit that nobody wants to pay for.
But by the time such a lawsuit was finished...where would their customers be? Migrating to Windows, most likely.
Seriously, people. Just think about it for a bit before you decide to write off one of the best companies for Linux since the original Red Hat. In the real world, sometimes you have to make a practical decision, not a principled one.
If you can't find a real troll, just mod down whoever you don't agree with!
It's the long goodbye to Novell.
The sole reason why Novell made this deal is because some executive at Novell got desperate and thought a deal with Microsoft would give them the warm fuzzies and get Novell competitive advantage. The only problem is that the reason why Novell are doing badly is because Microsoft are Novell's main competitor, they're taking customers away from them and are busy beavering away getting Netware and eDirectory replaced in many companies with Windows and AD. They've been doing this for years, long before Novell ever started using Linux, and it hasn't changed.
Linux also isn't going to save Novell because their customers that contribute to all their revenue are still using Netware and eDirectory, and getting might cheesed off that Novell haven't created a top-notch replacement (making them want to move to Windows and AD even more - nice one Novell!), and Novell are making no dent whatsoever on the Linux market Red Hat has got. Besides, the Red Hat Linux market is still somewhat smaller than Novell's dwindling and rapidly falling Netware market. Dilemma, eh?!
In short, Novell have failed utterly miserably to keep their existing customers really happy, and Microsoft are going to take most of what's left off them. Microsoft isn't worried at all about not being able to sell Suse coupons. They're putting Novell out of business for crying out loud!
Where I work we have a small 100 user network, running Netware 6.5. It works. However we thought "Right chaps, time to upgrade" so we duly contacted Novell and were absolutly gobsmacked to find they want $12,000-14,000 for an upgrade from 6.5 to 7. It might not have been so bad if there were some new decent features but there arent! So we were not gonna pay $12,000 for nothing new. If we wanted to upgrade Groupwise to version also, it was MORE money than the OS.
Thing is, Netware is dying. Novell arent even attempting to do anything much with it these days except milk the cash cow for all its worth (read tied in users) and trying to get people to migrate to SUSE.
There is no sparkle or pazzaz anymore in anything Netware. It has only one advantage over Windows, and that is stability/uptime.
They have essentially bet the farm on Suse and stopped pushing anything else new or significant out the door a long time ago. Years ago they owned the networking space, now its just a matter of time till they are gone.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
If Novell is getting worried about the GPLv3,
just wait till they'll see GPLv4 !
See my small cartoon:5 /dr_faust.html
http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/geekandpoke/2007/0
Bye,
Oliver
Who said they were required to switch to GPL3!?!?
and Reza's still a fat cow!!!
IBM still has an internal desktop Linux image. At various points it has been based on SuSE and RedHat, I'm not sure what it's based on right now as I run Kubuntu.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
"Troll", eh? There it is again, the Slashdot Sheep Effect preventing consideration of opposing views as haveing any basis in reality. Perhaps OSS's biggest handicap.
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.