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The Private Outsourcing of US Intelligence Services
mrbluze writes "It appears that more and more of the data collection sanctioned by the US government is passed through the hands of private enterprise, Salon reports. 'Because of the cloak of secrecy thrown over the intelligence budgets, there is no way for the American public, or even much of Congress, to know how those contractors are getting the money, what they are doing with it, or how effectively they are using it. The explosion in outsourcing has taken place against a backdrop of intelligence failures for which the Bush administration has been hammered by critics, from Saddam Hussein's fictional weapons of mass destruction to abusive interrogations that have involved employees of private contractors operating in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. Aftergood and other experts also warn that the lack of transparency creates conditions ripe for corruption.'"
"Well, we can't keep our data secure, so we thought, why bother?"
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
It's when I read stories about messed up governments that make me glad I live in, damn.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
pay me to observe the posts of the notoriously secretive and suspected Al Quaida member Anonymous Coward.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
The "intelligence" failure was in the White House and it's coterie of civilian hit men sent to the Pentagon and the CIA. They simply chose crap, dismissed data they were told was garbage and ignored contrary facts presented to them. Analysts were quitting on principle; I remember them being interviewed in 1992. The PNACers used a hack, Tenet, to put a stamp on their fabricated package of dog poo. Then, after the lies hit the fan, they BLAMED THE INTEL THEY WERE TOLD WAS CRAP. Retch and repeat. And since the Niger documents were a known forgery even then, when do we ask the question: who commissioned the forgeries?
"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. "
Actually, only octopuses is the correct plural. The other's are I believe greek and latin root extensions, or something.
I could hijack a potentially popular first post to get my own unrelated comment higher up on the page than it would normally get, but instead I'll use the opportunity to open discussion on this recently encroaching phenomenon.... oh wait.
May the Maths Be with you!
only listening to what they want to hear, I just got a business idea:
Mr. Bush, Iran is responsible for all the problems in the world, and invading will cause no problems whatsoever. This report will cost you a billion dollars, thank you!
Monstar L
I take your point about the White House only hearing what they want to hear and making it up when thats not the case. However political interference aside there was also a large failure on the part of the intelligence services to gather accurate information mainly due to few in place assets, regional antipathy to the US and the willingness of the intelligence services to pay for information which led to a glut of 'informants' spouting whatever made up crap they thought US agents would pay to hear.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
the great thing about private companies doing the governments dirty work, is that there is no way to obtain the infomation, these secrets are just that. and this is new how? the Americans have been spying on the British the British on the Australians and the Australians on America for decades, each country is not allowed to spy on their own ppl but they can spy on another country and then share the information, and the biggest bonus is plausible deniability. http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/
The Truth Is Out There:
...of information, not to mention the law, suggest that all of the secrecy can lead to corruption, as though it may happen. I'd argue that we're well past that point- the first sign that something is amiss is the unprecedented secrecy. The surveillance and other illegal acts are just window dressing.
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Salon Technical Staff.
http://www.rense.com/general79/wdx1.htm
This sounds like an easy way around the CIA's domestic spying restrictions.
Would a private contractor be subject to any of these restrictions?
Every time the non-native English speakers (and USA hater) read something about the American intelligence it cracks us up. This is because we almost automatically interpret the word 'intelligence' as in 'intelligent'. So reading about outsourcing the American Intelligence really spurs some fun reactions, like "That's a good idea", "do they have any?", "Must be a simple task" and so on and so on.
Really, we simply can not stop ridiculing you when you have words that sounds like a joke to the rest of the world.
One thing I've never understood about the USA is why Americans seem completely bind to the corruption within their own system. Example - Dick Cheney - until he became Vice President he was Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Halliburton Energy Services, he is still a major stockholder. Then, the Iraq war happened, apparently a driving force behind that was Cheney. Do you guys not have the concept of "conflict of interest"?
Is the problem that in school you have it drummed into you how great the USA is, and so don't see the problems? (Sorry I realise this post is a bit trollish, but it is a genuine question).
The purpose of outsourcing is avoiding the rules and laws of government, and achieving greater secrecy.
A secret government is a corrupt government.
The present intensification of secrecy began in the late 40's with establishment of the idea that the government could secretly manipulate governments and kill people to protect the profits of U.S. companies, particularly oil companies.
With enough secrecy, a government becomes a dictatorship.
Both Cheney and Junior are alcoholics, with typical alcoholic personalities. (Even though alcoholics may not be drinking, the personality persists.)
Alcoholics always or almost always have anger problems. Angry people who are powerful enough may act out their anger by killing people. Alcoholics almost always want to keep things secret, because part of their personality disorder is that they don't face their conflicts. For more about the effect of alcoholism, see The behavior of Bush and Cheney is consistent with the behavior of alcoholics. Bush and Cheney arrest Records.
It amazes me how easily U.S. citizens have given up their freedoms and the excellent principles on which the great country of the United States was founded. It amazes me that U.S. citizens are willing to work a full month every year to pay for the corruption, to pay for a few ignorant, conflicted people to have their way.
this explains the change in dresscode at some indian call centers, to dark sunglasses and suits
It's happening all through government. Military and GS people flipping over to contractors literally overnight. Same people doing the exact same job. Khaki on Friday, shirt and tie on Monday. Somehow they appear to have waived the conflict of interest clauses in military service that were supposed to keep that from happening.
I don't have that many contacts in the intelligence services but I wouldn't be surprised to find the same trend there. I'm betting a lot of the intelligence contracting were government people one day, private contractors the next.
Either way this is a bad trend. There are some things we want the government to do, even though you can argue it costs more and is less efficient. That's okay. Some services have considerations that need to go beyond the bottom line. Aside from that there appears to be little accountability in contract awards these days and many seem to have political overtones. High level positions going to people whose chief qualification seems to be that they graduated from Oral Roberts University.
If there's an encouraging sign it's that we're...finally...starting to see some outrage from those calling themselves conservatives. Better late than never I guess.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
"... the [Saudi] royals are personal friends and business associates of the Bush family."
More than just personal friends, physically affectionate friends
The entire UN did NOT agree at all with "what was going on". What kind of bullshit is that? So if you don't let me peek into your home, then you are hiding something? Also, in the end, Saddam HAD opened the doors for inspections and the inspections were, as we now know, being really effective. YOU make ME sick.
Baboons are cute.
"Our" loss? Last I checked, we weren't the architects of this disaster in Iraq. So it would perhaps be more accurate to describe it as your loss.
Oh, you were talking about the election... the one from way back in 2004? Wow. Just wow. Looks like we're not the ones who need to get over it and move on.
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
IANA world leader, so feel free to enlighten me, but what right does a publicly elected government have to hide things from its owners ? Owners being the citizens, of course. I know we do things a bit differently up here in the cold green expanse of Canada, but we consider government to be (as a whole) a group of people who act on behalf of the greater population for certain things, and they invoke various democratic devices like referendums for the tricky stuff. That's why we call them public servants. They're supposed to work FOR us. When one of them gets caught behaving badly, we browbeat the smug out of them like a mother to her wayward child, publicly grill to a nice char, then ship them off to some lame ass office job to limit the amount of damage they'll be causing. We may not own the person, but we own their work.
It's one of those things that triggers a civil protest if things are allowed to linger for too long, or gross injustice is suspected. For example, if there were too much resistance in providing detailed intelligence spending records, and someone is dedicated to getting them out to the public, chances are we'd have a peaceful demonstration in Ottawa until we get our way. It doesn't always work as quickly or efficiently as we'd like, but we get what we want in the end.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
I don't recall hearing *any* politician, regardless of the country they are in, but especially the Congressional ones, apologize, or otherwise admit they were wrong regarding these WMDs.
They were all hell-bent on starting a quick war, perhaps in the hopes of cleaning up in the polls and making themselves look good (which, they should know by now, is impossible in the eyes of the American people and perhaps the world).
It was not just our President who was convinced, but Congress was as well, even the notoriously liberal (in all the wrong ways) Kennedy, who said, and I quote here:
"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
and one from Mr. "I invented the Interwebs":
"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
Whether we went in looking for nukes or bacteria is moot, we are there now, but those that saw the war take an unfavourable turn (and apparently know nothing of history, the losses we have incurred there are miniscule compared to, say WW2 island hopping losses) have hardly admitted their mistake in being for it.
The hypocrasy surrounding the entire Iraq was is astounding.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
We had inspectors in Iraq. Right up until our invasion. And they found NOTHING to even indicate that Saddam had any weapons facilities. Much less actual "WMD's".
Which was why those inspectors were in Iraq.
I was one of the ones protesting the war BEFORE it started. We wanted to wait for the inspectors to do their job.
Meanwhile, everyone who was pushing for war was claiming that the inspectors were incompetent because they couldn't find the "WMD's" that we "knew" Saddam had.
The problem is that we are losing more of our troops over there ever week. Kind of hard to 'get over your loss' when they just died, isn't it?
And which of those agreements was worth the 3,400+ of our troops that have died over there? Or the uncounted number of Iraqi civilians who have died? Please be specific in your answer.
Wow... thank God I'm just a drunk!
Beauty is just a light switch away.
There is more than anyone wants to know about (USA) prime-contractors, sub-contracting (China, India ...) out software projects for (1997-present) all government systems and agencies. It is all very funny at this point, "Don't Worry, Be Happy, Ignorance is Bliss for US, EU.... We are betrayed more by our own arrogance and incompetence in government, then any prime-contractor.
... failed, because of liberals, but if liberals did not exist, then (like Napoleon, Hitler ...) Bush, Chaney, Rumsfeld ... would express a form of "If they cannot win for me, then they die for me" (luckily they have the democrats).
If you have core business requirements/products, which you contract out to others, then expect eventually to be filling for bankruptcy and begging forgiveness of the Board and Shareholders for giving the business away. If management is incompetent (true for US, decades), making bad or criminal decisions, it does not matter how hard the rank&file Warriors and Citizens work and sacrifice, the enterprise is going out of business.
Our present political, military (checkout NPR General stories), and civil-service is weighted with management that says GetItDone, has super socializing skills, takes credit for GettingThingsDone, and nepotisticly distributes blame for FailingToDo to any opposition/lamb, and across the rank&file Warriors' and Citizens' who do the work and sacrifice. I expect to hear years from now that Bush, Chaney
Congress will never impeach Bush/Chaney and DoD (Do or Die) Rumsfeld's bobble-head selected military leaders will perpetuate a politicized and socially approved career path to the four-star level. Military/Intelligence performance is blamed on everything and everyone, except for the (new-spin) Politically-Correct and socially acceptable [[no Warriors, Planners, Commanders, fags, or atheist need apply]]. Warriors, Planners, Commanders... are to be relegated to the tactical level only where they are needed, which will allow General Managers (as in business) to market themselves and maybe eventually become president/CEO (retirement by bankruptcy).
DOD/Intelligence needs to be freed from oppression of politics, not further politicized by promoting fart-eating, shit-sucking, ass-kissing, bullshitters in the GO and SES community as vapor-success performers. Rank&File Warriors and Citizens do the jobs, politicized management personnel are bottom-feeders and scavengers of the USA workplace (Business, Religion, Government, Military).
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
And what did the Iraqi people do to deserve being nuked?
We "won" the war when we took over the Iraqi government. Years ago.
Again, specifically, which of those agreements was worth the 3,400+ of our troops that have died over there? Or the uncounted number of Iraqi civilians who have died?
If i dont let you peek into my home its beacuse i didnt agree to it as a condition of surrender.. Saddam did agree to this. When he started playing games its logical to asume shady activity was going on. Letting inspectors into specially 'cleansed' areas does not qualify as 'opening the doors' in my opinion. ( and many others )
I am willing to accept that perhaps it was all just a scam on his part to make people believe he had something he didnt, to try to pretend he had some power and taunt the world community in general. He still deserved to have his country leveled in either case.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Is that the politically correct way of saying TORTURE? How do you say Death By Torture then http://www.google.com/search?q=us+death+by+tortur
My man, we ALL see it & know it, here in the U.S.A., all the way from our educated leaders, down to the laborers!
However, consider this: If you look at our current economic situation, companies first producing shoddy goods/downsizing, & going out of business (ontop of outsourcing of traditionally domestically based jobs), & the declining power of the U.S. Dollar?
You have your answer.
E.G.-> Bush/Cheney @ crew are burning up 275 million U.S. Dollars A DAY that could be used to create jobs here internally, but are instead funding this "war for freedom", by "staying the course" and lining their own republican pockets with it AND, not allowing open-bids for the contracts for this all no less!
(Thus, also lining the pockets of their cronies, and those that funded their political campaigns or those they were formerly connected to and STILL PROFIT BY, UNLIKE OTHER PAST POLITICAL LEADERS WHO HAD TO GIVE UP SUCH INTERESTS & PROFITS UPON TAKING OFFICE (Cheney & Haliburton, vs. Jimmy Carter and his peanut business is an example thereof)).
All the while, they are outsourcing OUR jobs, and all the while who fights the wars?
Our young men do, from non-connected politically & non-wealthy families is who - "expendable assets" in other words. Sure, they sign up, they get paid... CRUMBS ONLY FROM THE TABLE OF WAR PROFITEER SCUM!
(Because, face it: Good paying U.S. domestics jobs AND ENTIRE COMPANIES, are disappearing! So, instead of becoming an illegal organized drug dealing criminal? They have to survive + their wives & kids too (so, put your life on the line, because "UNCLE SAM WANTS YOU!" for a bullet bag). ALL, so Haliburton, Cheney, Bush, Republicans all, Raytheon, Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR), & Lockheed Martin get ahead & profit by YOUR blood)!
On jobs? Hey - The IT sector illustrates this, the best.
Show a U.S. worker a buck, the RIGHT buck, he'll give you the most precious thing there is and work his ass off: His time (in 60-80 hour weeks - do others in other nations work this hard I wonder? I know I have and watch my brother do the same) and life (time with his family the most important thing there is), so his kids have a better one, hopefully.
We get crumbs from the table of corrupt pigs though, at best, & keep our mouths SHUT to keep making a living, while it is still doable. For how long though? Somewhere along the line, the old true adage of "You have to spend money, to MAKE money" got lost.
The leaders of feudal Britain, for example, never COMPLETELY starved out their serfs. Yes, they kept them wanting more, which is good, not overpaying them, BUT, they gave the serfs enough to go home, drink ale, eat food, bang the old lady, & have some more serfs to work the fields and provide soldiery for those same lords, & do the same thing again, day after day.
(HOWEVER, the lords of the manor/kingdom NEVER totally robbed them. It would be "bad business" really. Just like not putting monies back into your vehicle for fuel, oil changes & other maintenance, & insurances, etc. (plant, property, & equipment care)).
No, instead, we are all "expendable, replaceable, assets"... no wonder many people won't buy U.S. Goods anymore, just out of principle! Do me wrong? Screw you, I'll do the same & buy better made foreign goods just out of spite, if not for a better bang for my hard-earned buck.
Attitude reflects leadership & "SHIT FLOWS DOWNWARDS!", absolutely. They provide the corrupt example from the top.
Thing is, when they do this, they outsource good paying jobs, & cut out our populace's disposable income (monies above & beyond food + rent + utilities (basics)) & put us into a "hand-to-mouth" financial situation?
I.E.-> Via these machinations, You get silent, obedient slaves! Some people might call it genius creating such a perfect trap, but I call it a stupidity of galactic proportions... greed is all it is, and it is SO easy to be bogus/des
Remarks by the President in Address to the United Nations General Assembly
New York, New York
10:39 A.M. EDT
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Secretary General, Mr. President, distinguished delegates, and ladies and gentlemen: We meet one year and one day after a terrorist attack brought grief to my country, and brought grief to many citizens of our world. Yesterday, we remembered the innocent lives taken that terrible morning. Today, we turn to the urgent duty of protecting other lives, without illusion and without fear.
We've accomplished much in the last year -- in Afghanistan and beyond. We have much yet to do -- in Afghanistan and beyond. Many nations represented here have joined in the fight against global terror, and the people of the United States are grateful.
The United Nations was born in the hope that survived a world war -- the hope of a world moving toward justice, escaping old patterns of conflict and fear. The founding members resolved that the peace of the world must never again be destroyed by the will and wickedness of any man. We created the United Nations Security Council, so that, unlike the League of Nations, our deliberations would be more than talk, our resolutions would be more than wishes. After generations of deceitful dictators and broken treaties and squandered lives, we dedicated ourselves to standards of human dignity shared by all, and to a system of security defended by all.
Today, these standards, and this security, are challenged. Our commitment to human dignity is challenged by persistent poverty and raging disease. The suffering is great, and our responsibilities are clear. The United States is joining with the world to supply aid where it reaches people and lifts up lives, to extend trade and the prosperity it brings, and to bring medical care where it is desperately needed.
As a symbol of our commitment to human dignity, the United States will return to UNESCO. (Applause.) This organization has been reformed and America will participate fully in its mission to advance human rights and tolerance and learning.
Our common security is challenged by regional conflicts -- ethnic and religious strife that is ancient, but not inevitable. In the Middle East, there can be no peace for either side without freedom for both sides. America stands committed to an independent and democratic Palestine, living side by side with Israel in peace and security. Like all other people, Palestinians deserve a government that serves their interests and listens to their voices. My nation will continue to encourage all parties to step up to their responsibilities as we seek a just and comprehensive settlement to the conflict.
Above all, our principles and our security are challenged today by outlaw groups and regimes that accept no law of morality and have no limit to their violent ambitions. In the attacks on America a year ago, we saw the destructive intentions of our enemies. This threat hides within many nations, including my own. In cells and camps, terrorists are plotting further destruction, and building new bases for their war against civilization. And our greatest fear is that terrorists will find a shortcut to their mad ambitions when an outlaw regime supplies them with the technologies to kill on a massive scale.
In one place -- in one regime -- we find all these dangers, in their most lethal and aggressive forms, exactly the kind of aggressive threat the United Nations was born to confront.
Twelve years ago, Iraq invaded Kuwait without provocation. And the regime's forces were poised to co
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
And, BTW, about your sig...
The civil war ended over 140 years ago. Talk about needing to "get over your loss". I guess you're still upset that you are not allowed to own slaves.I feel like death on a soda cracker.
So if George W creates a scam on his part to make people believe, and taunts the world community, he deserves to have his country leveled? This is the logic of the NeoCons.
Does anybody else find the idea of transparency in spying to be an odd conception?
Thats not at all a comparison, and you know it.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
They also ignored intelligence from countries that they don't like. The French have a fine intelligence service that has vast knowledge of the Mideast (especially Afghanistan), and experience in countering terrorism. Instead of listening to them, they called them "Cheese eating surrender monkeys."
France tried to warn us in January 2001.
ASA veteran 65-69 4th USASAFS 66-69
photosMy Photostream
>You people make me sick. Get over your loss and move on. Or better yet, get the hell out.
I assume by "moving on" you mean forsake accountability and accept purposeful wrongdoings as proper?
What makes me sick is that there are people like you urging others to "move on" while our soldiers are dying for these same mistakes almost every day.
War is a grave burden, and a wrongful war is a truly horrible one. As far as I am concerned whoever pushed their own agenda to start this war should go to jail.
Content-spin of collected intelligence to fit a political agenda failed US!
... and a "New World Order"/"New-Conservatism.
... all being edited to fit a political ... I guess, image is all
.... Iraq is a politicized policing action just like Vietnam, it aint' a funking WAR, unless your own boots (or family/friend) are on the ground with a personal weapon always ready. We do have a WAR with selected groups of terrorist ... using Arabs, Persians, North Africans ... makes it easier for a Christian/Religious (non-Muslim) Nation to swallow the BS-lies. We need to go after the specific targets (BinLaden, Islamist, foreign and domestic terrorist of all beliefs ...) and never let them rest until they are underground and dead. I would like a global ultimatum to all terrorist (all are murders, not Warriors) and national leaders that harbor and aid the terrorist: "Let US and EU live in peace, or die ASAP!"
... lie for fools like US. When will we all stop believing the lies of politicians (Education, Social Security, Health Care ... the last three gauld-dang ficking decades)? PLEASE, Vote all politicians out after every term, then maybe we'll get our democracy back; Also, "DON'T VOTE STUPID" applies to candidates and voters. End this BS AFAFP (As Fast As fycking Possible), always vote'em out.
Our Warriors have never and will never fail US, but politicized DOD policy/tactics
and political GOs failed US, and caused catastrophic results for US, which would not
have been possible without "content-spin-lies" by some political GOs, Bush, Chaney,
Rice, Rumsfeld
Content-spin is continuing as if creating a plausible denial history of information
for posterity and the legacy of failure. Criminally thousands of eMail (official public
record) were lost/destroyed, intentional outing of a CIA operative, corruption of DOD
Chain of Command and acquisition; Also, Environmental, Economic, Academic/Science,
Military Readiness/History, Personnel Availability
agenda, and pass blame to the next administration/congress, much like Nazi-Germany,
Stalinist-Russia, Imperialist-Japan, Revolutionary-China
important, justifying greed, lies, torture, murder, war....
Oh, by the way folks, Iraq is a battlefield/region/area
The "Iraq War" is just another content-spin Chaney, Rove, Bush
DOD management is ill and remains a performance failure, proof is in Iraq (Vehicle and Personal armor, Bomb Jammers (the new short supply BJ), billions of tax dollars lost a/o skimmed off, troops poorly feed and clothed, Disabled Veterans (even after Vietnam lessons) treated like a burden and rabble-rousers for demanding reasonable and obligatory (for US) treatment. I would not be surprised, if some one investigated/audited weapon systems development and found that more is paid for vapor-weapons/performance than at any time in USA Military History.
Whoops, too much, too far again, must be due to my advanced age and maybe early onset of dementia. !HAVEFUN!
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
I'll bite. Why is it not a comparison? If the actions are comparable, what's the big deal?
My 2c,
A.A
Your mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's been opened.
a) a massive underground grid of tunnels connecting every single palace to all the others, and
b) completely empty barracks that the guy described as NOT being what you would have people in, but weapons. The exact situation-- the guys in the squad looked around at each other and laughed because they all knew the barracks had been used for weapons that weren't there anymore.
Presumably a soldier would know more about this, considering he's seen it firsthand, than you would. As I see it, I listen to what they tell me about what's going on over there; and not any of the media. Then I look at the major broadcasters and see what lines up-- CNN is doom and gloom, nothing good is happening. Fox News is more in line with what I'm hearing from the soldiers over there, that yes they had WMDs, they don't now, we're doing pretty well in our reconstruction efforts, etc.
That's not even getting into the fact that the Indian newspapers and media were telling us the same thing we presumed when we went in, but for 15 years; that they had tons and tons and tons of weapons.
I'm sorry, but you Bush bashers had me for a time, but there's simply too much greed in the world to believe CNN is really interested in reporting the truth. Face it-- What sells more? Good news? No, all you hear about is murders and death and the latest mega-virus scare. That's what sells.
But hey, it's so much easier to spit out a 1-paragraph bash of the current political happenings. Honestly, I haven't heard any sources or proof that comport with your line of thinking; only the same vague references to failure and bad intel that I heard from the start years ago.
War Profiteering is a criminal act which aids the enemy;
Therefor, I believe, we speak of TREASON by at least a
vice-president and maybe a few others, but Bush was just
a puppet in all this. For Bush, I can only support life
in prison. For Chaney, Rice, Rumsfeld, and others it could
be much worse for them, but truly much better for US.
No, I am not silly enough to ever expect impeachment and
TREASON investigation in a plutocrat Corporatist society.
In a Democratic Society, it would be different.
Always vote politicians (Local & Fed) out every term.
"DON'T VOTE STUPID" applies to politicians and voters.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
You're a dogmatist or a political marketeer (Adelophobic or Sociopath), which is it?
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
You talk and probably walk in a very funny and seductive manner, be careful on the street and/or in prison.
Damn, more flamebait fun.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
Well, how long would have them save your state? A minute? An hour? While slashdotted?
Doesn't your browser support throwing away all cookies when you close it? If so, why isn't that good enough?
I could ask for throwing them away when the site passes from your history in all tabs and windows, but geez... browser shutdown is pretty good.
Dont forget the entire UN agreed with what was going on
No they didn't, that's why we had to go with the Coalition of the Willing (some of whom weren't willing to be named). The UN said we didn't have enough to justify action, or maybe they just didn't believe us.
In the government, the good person can't be paid well. That would violate all sorts of stupid government rules. The only way to pay the person well is if they are not considered a person, but a business.
In the government, nobody can fire the differently abled buddhist afro-american transsexual. It can slack off all it wants, generally fuck things up, etc. Competent people aren't all willing to stomach having to deal with that in a coworker, boss, or underling.
Lots of competent people don't wish to pee in a cup. A few may be light drug users that would still manage to do good work. The rest are just insulted that anybody would suggest that drugs might be in use.
The government isn't providing stock options, fancy food, etc. It's not like working at Google.
So contracters, big and small, are how shit gets done. It's economics finding a way past some of the stupidity. The cost is of course some other types of stupidity.
He still deserved to have his country leveled in either case.
Yes all those those people who lived under a man that was propped up by US/UK commercial interests for the last 30 years deserved to die when he became no longer useful. That should teach the next dictator put into place by the same interests a big lesson.
What?
Bollocks. Leave out the revisionism already.
"Blix's statements about the Iraq WMD program came to contradict the claims of the Bush administration, [7] and attracted a great deal of criticism from supporters of the invasion of Iraq. In an interview on BBC TV on 8 February 2004, Dr. Blix accused the U.S. and British governments of dramatising the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in order to strengthen the case for the 2003 war against the regime of Saddam Hussein." -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix
I know this is wikipedia, but any source other than perhaps Fox and the Republican party will say the same.
"It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
Hang on - it's 2007 and the weapons have still not been found. It's time to stop pretending that they are still there and a bunch of PR idiots were right and the intelligence analysts in many countries (including the USA) were wrong.
Well, ASIDE from the EMPHATIC shouting ;) I'd say that I agree with most of what you said. The corruption of politics is a shameful reality. As I said in an above post, people will only change when forced to, and as you stated, when people are more worried about putting food on their table...suddenly something happening half a world away, while a tragedy, is still half a world away.
Cheers, and here's to voting your MIND and not your HEART.
A.A
(Posting under my real name because freedom not fought for is not worth anything.)
Your mind is like a parachute. It works best when it's been opened.
And so it seems to have been abused, but I don't think there's any stopping it now.
The demographics, an aging baby boom generation who grow more conservative as they age, favor the increasingly protofascist elements of our political system. As we boomers age, we will tend to favor the group of politicians who will promise us old age benefits. The Republican Party has always been out front for looting the public taxes to buy votes from the old. That's just how the system works; one party or the other was going to do it. But now that the political system has been gamed, we need to respond.
Combine the mono-culture fundamentalist christians (no, not cap C), big oil/big money, the one-issue gun lobby, and the demographics, and you have the recipe for an unbreakable control of our government. And the current crop of villains who had control of our government is just the most recent example of what will become the norm; the abuse of power by those who are best able to manipulate the system.
The proto fascists will continue to grow a secret police organization, a private (outsourced) police. Eisenhower's prediction about the military-industrial complex came true long ago. But what disheartens me is the knowledge that we will abide this ongoing decay in the values and standards that were hoped for by the founders of our nation. There was no outcry when the Patriot Act was passed. There seems to be no outrage about the Justice Department's (Gonzales, and Card, with assistance from Bush) violations of the law WRT wiretaps. (Think about that. The federal Justice Department breaking the law.)
We can expect this 'outsourcing' of covert activities to continue because it serves to concentrate power in one branch of our government.
I named Republicans as a guilty party, but it could just have easily been the Democratic Party. Events in 1964 changed where the balance of power in the Republican Party lay. The names of political parties is not as important as the names of the actors involved and who they serve. I don't think the future of our government is well served by this large secret police organization. Democracy thrives in the open air.
Best regards.
... but I'm sure that's what the other corps thinks, too.
The understanding agreement after the first war was not unconditional and was full of vagueness.
Saddam would never had signed it otherwise. After all, he was the King of Persia.
Also, UNSCOM had an attitude which enraged the entire region. Things were bound to get complicated.
Country leveled? The amount of blood thirst on display here today is frightening.
Baboons are cute.
You should read more this web site
While I admit that it is probably a right-wing publication, I have the impression that they are fairly balanced. I think you can see it mainly in the reporting about the Arab world, there is no rhetorics in the articles.
Now about the people that he wanted to believe he had something, it was mainly the Arab world. The reason is its neighbor Iran. Iran/Persia dominated the Arab probably for almost 3 millennia. The Arabs fear and loathe the Persians, and Saddam was the only one who had stood up against them. That earned him respect in the Arab world.
Instead, we listened to the Israelis, which have a fine intelligence service, possible the best in the world, but tend to be a bit...biased...about Mideast affairs for very very obvious reasons.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
The 2006 estimate was that 26,783,383 people live in that country - did they deserve to have THEIR country leveled too ?
Prick !
What goes around, comes around, so you had better start making amends for Bush's global interference, otherwise someone might decide to level the U.S. !
I find it funny that if a surgical strike had taken out saddam and a few of his commanders, then the whole countrys infrastructure would still be intact, and the US wouldn't be mired in the deep shit they are now. And the actual people who fucking live there would be better off. (which was the whole cooked up premise, wasn't it ?)
But that was never the real intention was it ? The people of Iraq were the last reason for invading, it was all down to backroom agreements between the commander in chief and his military-industrial buddies.
This post confuses me, how is this person retarded? As someone who had to grow up with a powerful, abusive alcoholic and spent several years as an alanon counsler there is nothing in those statements that is crazy. No, not all alcoholics are abusive but if the alcoholic has an abusive personality, power does seem to magnify their abusive tendencies. Even though accusing those two of being alcoholics may be unfair and even possibly libelous, the poster does have a point that they seem to exhibit some common personality traits of abusive alcoholics. Of course there is another disease that has similar traits that is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). See if they fit any of these criteria:
(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
a) a massive underground grid of tunnels connecting every single palace to all the others, and
b) completely empty barracks that the guy described as NOT being what you would have people in, but weapons. The exact situation-- the guys in the squad looked around at each other and laughed because they all knew the barracks had been used for weapons that weren't there anymore.
Gee, could that be because Iraq used to have a much larger military than it had at the time of invasion, including WMDs?
Jesus Christ, does not one remember past a decade anymore? We know they had WMDs...we invaded in 1991 and forced them to destroy them! Yes, they had vast underground areas for these WMDs and all sorts of crap, none of which could have been used for WMDs because the weapon inspectors that were just there knew where they were.
But I really like how the 'Saddam did too have WMDs' revisionists don't appear to grasp how much worse that actually would be. Let's pretend you are, hypothetically, absolutely correct. Well, the point of the war wasn't to be 'right', it was to remove the WMDs. If they actually did exist and we didn't get them, we made things ten times worse!
Before, a country had WMDs, which, incidentally, plenty of countries do and they don't pose much of a threat. Iraq had absolutely no hope of delivering WMDs against us, and no chance of getting away with it if they did. Now...well, apparently, according to you, some random people are wandering around with WMDs. People wandering around within a few feet of our military. Who are actively trying to kill said military. Hmmm.
Oh, and now we've actually got terrorists there, working to help destabilize the situation. Let's hope that none of the terrorists decides to trade a few hundred guns they don't need for some sarin gas the insurgents can't use safely, but the terrorists know a perfect little football stadium over in the US...
Good plan there, thanks for that. For your next trick, you can resolve a hostage crisis in a fireworks factory with a rocket launcher while carrying 10 gallons of gasoline.
Luckily, you are wrong about the WMDs, or we'd have even more people dead. I just find is absolutely surreal that 'Saddam did have WMDs, we just forced them into the hands of random, unknown people when we invaded' is some sort of defense of this increasingly indefensible war.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
About three hundred thousand people killed. What did THEY do to deserve being murdered?
You can't take the sky from me...
Oh really? Then who are the architects of this disaster in Iraq?
You can't take the sky from me...
Ok, here is question for you. If China and Korea went to war but decided to fight that war on US soil, how would you feel? Think that would start a civil war in this country?
How many no-bid contracts will it take to get that through your +1 Cursed Shield Of Mental Delusions? How many overcharging and tainted food scandals before you accept reality in place of your rosy fantasy?
You can't take the sky from me...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
You do know Lincoln was a Republican dont you?
Members of the administration as of 2003, by and large, and those who supported their efforts contrary to all confidential and publicly-available intelligence. Are you seriously trying to pin the blame for your little Middle East misadventure on those who were trying to restrain you from it?
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
No, that was the right answer. In the context of your post it sounded like you were saying something else since the parent you responded to said it was the White Houses fault. So it seemed like you were going down the "they are jealous of our freedom" path, and arguing with a post that basically said what you just said but with less detail, so I had to ask the question. Thanks for the clarification.
Click "parent" on my post and you'll see who I was actually replying to. The fault lies with Slashdot's fucked-up, thoughtless design, which inserts my reply out of context unless you're browsing at -1. But what do you expect from a site designed by Linux geeks?
Make Slashdot readable! See journal.
For the the most interesting idea to come of this is that the government may be limited legally (increasingly not, admittedly) in the actions they can take directly, but may not be so limited if they hire someone to do it for them. For example, even if Congress gathers finds within themselves a bit of responsibility, ethics and manages to remember the constitution and the american people, and manages to restore Habeas Corpus and prohibit torture, the administration will probably just hire it out to "independent contractors" who, by being just that, independent, will not be subject to such laws. Make it all happen in another country (or a ship outside american waters) and Hey Presto! legal torture.
Similarly, one can imagine contracting out censorship. The government itself may not be able to censor anything, but surely they could use black budgets to hire people (for example, the recently featured warriors for innocence) to do it for them, or even, one might imagine, paying CNN and Fox news to carefully pass over the kind of story that would give the government a black eye. And every time someone cried out "Censorship" people (you see it all the time here on /.) would say : "It isn't censorship if the government isn't doing it."
And it wouldn't be the government, at least not directly.
Even local governments or police departments might manage this. I don't think they can do it directly, but a bit of under the table funding for photographers catching people doing stuff that the local city administrators might find annoying (or even persuading some local rich person/company with the same kinds of interest to pay for the same thing) could go a very long ways.
And no, this is not necessarily the kinds of actions I can only imagine a Republican administration doing. The Democrats are equally in love with power. And the libertarians would probably start with such actions - just cuz they fit in with their general philosophy.
Damn, meant to hit Preview, but hit submit instead. Lets see if I can post a (slightly cleaned up) revision to that.
For me the the most interesting idea to come of this is that the government may be limited legally in the actions they can take directly, but may not be so limited if they hire someone to do it for them. For example, even if Congress finds within themselves their proper share of courage, independence, responsibility and ethics and manages to remember the constitution and that the american people are its primary concern (and not the american corporations) and manages to take the right kinds of actions - restore Habeas Corpus, prohibit torture, keep american soldiers out of a stupid war.... The administration will probably just hire all those nice things out to "independent contractors" who, by being just that, independent, will not be subject to the constitution and any laws applying to the government. Make it all happen in another country (or a ship outside american waters) and Hey Presto! legal torture and So Much More. Because it is not the government doing it. (On a similar note, there've been several stories recently about the government doing just that - hiring independents to try to destabilize Iran.)
Similarly, one can imagine contracting out censorship. The government itself may restricted by the constitution from wide scale censorship (though they seem to do just that with impunity) but surely they could use black budgets to hire people (for example, the recently featured warriors for innocence) to do it for them, or even, one might imagine, paying CNN, Fox news, and similar organizations to carefully pass over the kind of story that would give the government a black eye. And every time someone cried out "Censorship", the courts and lots of people (you see it all the time here on /.) would say : "It isn't censorship if the government isn't doing it."
And, of course, they're quite correct : it wouldn't be the government, at least not directly.
Local governments or police departments might also manage this. I don't know that they can do it directly, but a bit of under the table funding for photographers catching people doing stuff that the local city administrators might find annoying (or even persuading some local rich person/company with the same kinds of interest to pay for the same thing) could go a very long ways.
And no, this is not necessarily the kinds of actions I can only imagine a Republican administration doing. The Democrats are equally in love with power. And the libertarians would probably start with such actions - just because they fit in with their general philosophy.
The 2006 estimate was that 26,783,383 people live in that country - did they deserve to have THEIR country leveled too ?
Prick ! You know what's funny? That sentiment is 10% neocon doctrine. The citizens of the country are responsible for their leaders. It was the German people's fault Hitler had power, it was the Iraqi people's fault Saddam was there. Just imagine their bleatings of consternation if someone turned around and said they were just as guilty for supporting Bush. "But Bush is no Hitler!" they would shriek. Yeah, they're right at that: Hitler actually served his country in time of war.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
I'm an old war-monger, but I ain't no dumb dogmatist like people who call old, ugly, bald-head and white-beard protofascist.
....
Grow the fuck up kid we are all in this sinking ship together newborn, young, and old, also every German, Russian, Arab, Israeli, Japanese
The only difference being that delusional dogmatist think they will survive or be saved by a god/satan/money. Who is killing your babies tomorrow depends on everyone, not just you or me. Politicians/corporatist/televangelist/... are plutocrats willing to see us all die a/o kill each other for their pervert agenda, entertainment, wealth and privilege.
Unaccountable leaders are masters, and unrepresented people are slaves. How do US and EU fare?
PNAC or Project for the New American Century, proposed originally to Clinton a new way forward for the USA, including; huge expansion of military forces, preemptive intervention to peoples & countries hostile to it and preserving an international order in the interests of the USA.
Signatories to this include Cheney, Lewis "scooter" Libby, Jeb Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz... pretty impressive and currently the core of the 'neo conservitave' bush Government.
Iraq sitting on the worlds second largest oil reserves, challenged Americas future, as the USA needs to 1. To keep oil priced in US dollars to support it fiat nature, 2. Keep reliable supplies of oil.
Saddam, who was originally an asset of the CIA (and attempted under guide of CIA to assassinate Qasim) was to be their 'puppet' leader in IRAQ, but Saddam was a naughty boy. Thus Bush snr went in to teach him a lesson. (You wonder why they didn't take him out back then) The lesson, was you will be like Saudi Arabia. But Saddam was not playing ball, so Bush Jnr needed a reason to go back, but how could they convince the American people, who really don't have an imperialist bent.
They needed new 'pearl harbor'. 9-11 was that new pearl harbour. 9-11 truthers believe the neocons orchestrated this event (which I still have not made up my mind on), but regardless there was still no strong tie to IRAQ, but there was to Afghanistan, as they were harbouring Osama. Afghanistan was anther target of the neocons, because the Taliban would not agree to protect a UNOCALs proposed oil & gas pipeline. Now there are US bases conveniently placed along the path of the pipeline.
As the previous poster had mentioned, it took a little longer to manufacture evidence and 'prepare' the American people for an illegal incursion into IRAQ.
I think most Americans would be ashamed of the US govt increasing fascist world dominating behaviour, but there does not seem be a groundswell of discontent that would action any sort of uprising. Not that the US people could uprise now because of the clamp on your civil liberties post 9-11. What interesting times we live in.
46137
No, it would start WWIII
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"a surgical strike had taken out saddam and a few of his commanders"
Sure, that would have worked if it was possible. But it wasnt or we would have done it. So, a large scale melting of the area is appropriate, would have saved countless American lives and served as a warning in the future.
Making amends? for what? You cant compare our so called 'interference' with Saddams actions. So try again.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Do you honestly believe, that because you are an American, you and your country has the right to police the rest of the world?
No country, no matter what has happened, deserves to be "leveled". Maybe Saddam was playing games. Maybe their were no WMD's. We will probably never know the entire truth, but regardless, that does not justify what the American government/military is doing to the people of Iraq. Their "beef" was with Saddam... He's dead, no more issue. Get the fuck out of there and let the Iraqi people decide what is best for their country, not some bible thumping moron from the south and his group of trained monkeys.
Cheers,
Dave
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.
Ben
The right, but not the obligation, unless it interferes with our safety. .
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Why not?
He bombed innocent Iraqi civilians - we bombed innocent Iraqi civilians.
The actions are very comparable, only the motives differ.
This is potentially dangerous situation.
I do recognize the inherent truths in your argument, however. The problem is having a pile of tax money to pay for the job and corrupt politicians who are in charge of dispensing it. If you remove corruption, then your model, which works on the principal of 'greed', would indeed work better. The problem is, corruption and greed are tightly linked if they are not indeed the same thing.
So what's the solution?
On this planet, there isn't a one size fits all answer. You need to make your own choices and live by your own rules of conduct, and move in circles which agree with those rules and stay out of circles which do not. In my circles, secrecy and manipulation are certainly not highly prized commodities. Honesty and personal integrity are.
-FL
Then what gives us the right to fight our war in Iraq?
I doubt it would start WWIII, but I suppose it would seem like that to you.
This post confuses me, how is this person retarded?
Because the post belies a ridiculously simple-minded view of violence and alcoholism that makes me question their intelligence. Simplistic thinking such as "alcoholic == violent" and "violence + power == murderdeathkill" is simply idiotic and counterproductive. If you want to understand why Bush and his ilk believe what they do, it's important to do away with this simple logic and ridiculous hyperbole, and try to genuinely analyze why they do what they do.
I've gotta say that's really just flamebait. People who think this should try getting their information from more than one media source at once-- or from non-media sources.
.45 and shotgun during a robbery because he doesn't want them to get stolen. It is just mindbogglingly stupid reasoning. We had weapons inspectors on the ground and while they were kicked out we still had satellite photos. If Saddam had tried moving his weapons, we would have known about it.
Pot calling kettle...
Talk to some of the guys who've been over there. The Iraqis knew we were coming. They had plenty of time to remove their weapons.
This is one of the right wing's lamest arguments, somewhere between "cut and run" and the "he didn't want to scare the children" excuse for Bush reading My Pet Goat instead of getting on the phone with NORAD. Saddam hiding his WMD's in the face of an invasion is like a gun nut hiding his
I'm sorry, but you Bush bashers had me for a time, but there's simply too much greed in the world to believe CNN is really interested in reporting the truth.
"Bush bashing"? Any American who is not appalled by this presidents actions either doesn't follow the news - at all - or doesn't deserve their citizenship. And CNN, are you kidding me? The network that has to have two ultra conservative voices for every moderate while giving right wing bigots like Glenn Beck their own shows? The network that carried water for the president all throughout the Iraq invasion? The network that has started calling those opposed to the war "the antiwar crowd"?
Thats not at all a comparison, and you know it.
Okay, here's one: during military actions, the U.S. military routinely hits military and economic targets. What do you think the Pentagon and the World Trade Center are? By our own rules, the only people to have died from terrorism on 911 were those in the airplanes. How would you like it if Iran's military grabbed some of our soldiers while they were off duty and out of uniform, invented a term like "unlawful combatant", and kept them prisoners without a hearing or any rights? How about foreign governments waterboarding our citizens?
But back to how your facts are, in fact, fiction: Cheney is performing any work for Haliburton. He has two potential financial ties: (1) he received stock options, the rights to which he has donated to charity (no tie there) He still OWNS THE DAMN STOCK, he just promised he'd give the profits to charity. He's getting hundreds of thousands in deferred payments AND his government salary, he needs the PR of charity more than the pre-war profits from his stock. His actions as Grand Vizier of the United States has led to his stock rising in worth by the thousandfold! You think his old buddies at his Clinton-era job won't want to thank him?
Do you think he's planning on staying in the Oval Office for the rest of his life? He's going to need another job in 2009, will you stop deluding yourself when he moves to Dubai then?
You can't take the sky from me...