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More States Rebel Against Real ID Act

Spamicles writes with a link to a Lawbean post about more rebellion against the Real ID act. New Hampshire and Oklahoma have joined Montana and Washington state in passing statutes refuting the ID act's guidelines. "However, these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes or accessing federal buildings. In addition to these four states, members of the Idaho legislature intentionally left out money in the budget to comply with the Act."

295 comments

  1. What it boils down to by Billosaur · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The Wisconsin State Journal has an incredibly good analysis of the mess. They write:

    States have rebelled at the $14 billion in costs the act imposes on states, as well as worries that the new security system will invade residents' privacy and create what amounts to a national ID card.

    Emphasis mine. That's what makes this so unpalatable to the states, just like "No Child Left Behind" or welfare reform. The United States Government is saying "we're going to create these standards and you are going to pay to implement them" and the states are naturally balking at having to foot the bill for Washington D.C.'s foolishness.

    --
    GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    1. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't be so sure that these states are sticking up for your privacy and for the 10th Amendment or whatever.
      I have no doubt that if the feds ponied up umpteen billions of dollars in free* money to implement this, most, if not all, of these states would take it, then promptly bend over. They're not much different from prostitutes, after all....

    2. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 5, Interesting
      In New Hampshire, target of the Free State Project, it is not just about money.
      The Federal government can dump as much cash on us as they want and we still are bound by law not to comply.

      The exact wording of the bill that Governor Lynch is expected to sign this week or next says:
      [T]he public policy established by Congress in the Real ID Act of 2005, Public Law 109-13, is contrary and repugnant to Articles 1 through 10 of the New Hampshire constitution as well as Amendments 4 though 10 of the Constitution for the United States of America. Therefore, the state of New Hampshire shall not participate in any driver's license program pursuant to the Real ID Act of 2005 or in any national identification card system that may follow therefrom.

      By the way, if click on the generalcourt.org link above, you'll notice that each legislator has a "liberty grade." Just like in school, from "A" thru "F" -- the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance rates each and every one of the 400 State Representatives, based on how the actually vote on freedom-related bills, every year. Just one of the many things that become possible as a critical mass of pro-liberty activists concentrate on a single state.

      By the way... one of the sponsors of the bill, Rep. Winters, is a Free-Stater -- check his acceptance speech

    3. Re:What it boils down to by phillipsfamily_01969 · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that nobody should have to implement security standards that the government issues? What would happen if the airlines or other vulnerable operations refused to follow security standards, or just came up with their own? I don't think unfunded mandates are the real problem. It's more an issue of setting unrealistic goals and vastly underestimating the costs involved.

      As long as the costs are realistic, it's actually better to have unfunded mandates since there's less levels of government that the money has to go through!

    4. Re:What it boils down to by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I remember the time when Republicans complained about unfunded mandates back before they took power of the legislatures in the early 90's, now it looks like they are happy with making them.

    5. Re:What it boils down to by R2.0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Although I agree in principle, one of your examples is dead wrong. No Child Left Behind is NOT an unfunded mandate. The Feds supplied a shitload of money to states, under the condition that they meet certain standards, which teh states themselves got to set. The states took the money, and are now bitching that they have to comply with the conditions.

      There may be plenty of problems with NCLB - complaints I've heard include that it encourages "teaching to the test" (solution - get a better school administration) and that there isn't "enough" federal money to meet the mandate (no duh - it was never intended to be 100% funding).

      My opinion is that the local school districts, having failed students for over 40 years, have decided to go into survival mode and are throwing out whatever arguments they can to keep from having to change their bloated bureaucracies and airy-fairy "learning strategies". There are good arguments to be had, but the "unfunded mandate" one is a red herring - the funding was there BEFORE the mandate came into effect.

      And thinking the locals and states are pristine islands of goodness faced with a sea of federal bureaucracy and corruption is flat out naive - the feds have nothing on the states, and especially school districts, when it comes to flat out, cash in hand corruption (although they are catching up - I'm looking at you, Jefferson)

      --
      "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    6. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The cost are never realistic. Esp when dealing with the government. Also how does having an id make anyone more secure? Remember the hijackers all had id cards. If we make a 'more secure' id card it will just get a little more expensive for them.

    7. Re:What it boils down to by Billosaur · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I didn't say anything of the sort. I'm saying the states are balking at picking up the price tag. I for one wouldn't mind the standardization of license information for the purposes of making it easier to identify drivers within the United States. I draw the line at turning it into a nationalized ID system for the purposes of tracking people. And frankly, if the US Government thinks this up, then they should foot part of the bill for its implementation, since this is a national program. The money in the Federal budget comes from we the taxpayers, and I don't see why my local taxes need to be driven up just so Washington can stroke its ego.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    8. Re:What it boils down to by Billosaur · · Score: 2, Insightful

      While that may be true on the surface, in fact the Federal government has under-funded the programs that are supposed to work to support the act, leaving the states to foot the bill, using already stretched school budgets (Note: they are stretched because frankly a lot of that money is being wasted... but I digress).

      It isn't enough for Washington to come up with ideas -- they have to make the ideas practical and easily fundable. But when it comes to money, Washington is a town full of amnesiacs.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    9. Re:What it boils down to by russotto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What would happen if the airlines or other vulnerable operations refused to follow security standards, or just came up with their own?
      Then we might be able to get on a plane without being treated like a fucking criminal for having a cigarette lighter or a bottle of water.
    10. Re:What it boils down to by dougmc · · Score: 1

      By the way, if click on the generalcourt.org link above, you'll notice that each legislator has a "liberty grade." Just like in school, from "A" thru "F" -- the New Hampshire Liberty Alliance rates each and every one of the 400 State Representatives, based on how the actually vote on freedom-related bills, every year. Just one of the many things that become possible as a critical mass of pro-liberty activists concentrate on a single state. For the record, this sort of ranking doesn't require any sort of critical mass -- just a few people (or just one) to rate representatives, and a web page to put your results.

      I'm not saying I disagree with the free state concept at all -- I love it, actually -- but merely ranking representatives, that can be done by anybody in any state.

    11. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 1

      Well, there were over 1,300 bills considered by the NH State legislature last year. What is "a few" volunteers? We had 50 people read all of those bills and rate them on a standardized liberty score. We then had people attending the public hearings of the highest-impact bills, and basically acting as pro-liberty advocates (or "unpaid volunteer lobbyists", if you like) The next step of course is to get tens of thousands of copies of the Report Card printed and have them placed by nearly every polling place in the State in Nov 2008. I maintain you just can't do that effectively with just 'a few' people. There really is a lot of value-add in having a concentration of people who appreciate freedom all in one place.

    12. Re:What it boils down to by pla · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The United States Government is saying "we're going to create these standards and you are going to pay to implement them" and the states are naturally balking at having to foot the bill for Washington D.C.'s foolishness.

      Although you make a good point, you need to dig one layer further to see that some states object on moral (or at least, autonomy) grounds rather than merely due to funding issues...

      You can break states up into "welfare" and "SugarDaddy" states (This has a very high correlation with red-vs-blue, incidentally, but I don't mean this post to start a partisan flamewar). The states that have so far objected to Real Id, almost without fail, fall among the SugarDaddy states, the ones with a net outflow of money vs federal taxes.

      If your hypothesis (that most objecting states do so primarily for economic reasons) held true, then you would expect to see the exact opposite pattern among objectors/SugarDaddies. As the funding comes from the states anyway, whether directly or via the federal government, having each state pay their own way would cost the SugarDaddies less, overall.

      Thus, by reductio ad absurdum, your hypothesis appears false... Though I would still applaud you for raising the point, since regardless of whether the states or the feds pay, we the people still get stuck with the bill at the end of the day (or April 15th, in this case).

    13. Re:What it boils down to by xENoLocO · · Score: 1

      Papers, sir? Can I see your papers?

      --
      "The need to build the internet comes from something inside us, something programmed... something we can't resist."
    14. Re:What it boils down to by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "In New Hampshire, target of the Free State Project [freestateproject.org], it is not just about money."

      While I applaud this move...I don't find NH to truly be the freedom state. I've got a friend up there, not far from the Boston border. I can't believe all the freedom inhibiting laws they have. NO happy hour (can do 2 for 1 drinks), no smoking in any restaurants OR even bars. The cops seem out to nab you for just about anything...muffler or motorcycle slightly less that totally silent..ticket.

      I will give it to them...it does appear that they do not force you to wear a helmet on a motorcycle...at least they're giving ADULT people choice on that matter.

      Anyway, these were just a couple off the top of my head....I'd figured that with a motto like "Live Free or Die", they'd be a bit more permissive allowing adult behavior.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    15. Re:What it boils down to by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "So you're saying that nobody should have to implement security standards that the government issues? "

      Well, if you are talking about the Federal govt...then technically...yes.

      The fed. govt. was set up to be a very small and weak entity. The true power of the US is supposed to rest with the individual states. This, however, has been bastardized over the years....with the Feds grabbing power that really should not rest with them. They are NOT supposed to have the authority to tell states what to do, no.

      Remember, you are a citizen of your state first....citizen of the US a close second.

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    16. Re:What it boils down to by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      This was passed 100-0 in the senate. While this confirms what you're saying, it shouldn't be implied that this was solely a Republican thing.

    17. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I went looking for information regarding the Illinois stance.

      WHEREAS, Real ID would provide little security benefit and
      still leave identification systems open to insider fraud,
      counterfeit documentation, and database failures; therefore,
      be it

      RESOLVED, BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE
      NINETY-FIFTH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, THE
      SENATE CONCURRING HEREIN, that the Illinois General Assembly
      supports the government of the United States in its campaign
      against terrorism and affirms the commitment of the United
      States that the campaign not be waged at the expense of
      essential civil rights and liberties of citizens of this
      country that are protected in the United States Constitution
      and the Bill of Rights; and be it further

      RESOLVED, That the members of the Illinois General Assembly
      oppose any portion of the Real ID Act that violates the rights
      and liberties guaranteed under the Illinois Constitution or the
      United States Constitution, including the Bill of Rights; and
      be it further

      RESOLVED, That the Illinois General Assembly urges the
      Illinois Congressional delegation in the United States

      HJ0027 - 6 - LRB095 11206 DRH 31743 r

      Congress to support measures to repeal the Real ID Act of 2005;
      and be it further

      RESOLVED, That a copy of this resolution be delivered to
      President George W. Bush, Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales,
      Governor Rod R. Blagojevich, Senator Richard Durbin, Senator
      Barack Obama, and each of the members of the Illinois
      Congressional delegation.


      Now that is from the very end of this document. There appears to be more from this search, and I am going to try to look through these before I leave for work.

      Note: I had to remove the item line numbers to get past the lameness filter.

    18. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 5, Informative
      Well let's see... NH has no sales tax, no income tax, is the only state without a mandatory seat-belt law, is constitutionally prohibited from using eminent domain for private developments, has far less regulation on trades than most other states, just a few weeks ago passed an industrial hemp bill, and a few weeks before that came within 7 votes of passing a medical marijuana bill in the House of Representatives.

      But all that is missing the point; it's not to say that NH is already "free"; if it were, there'd be no point in a Free State Project, now, would there? The point is that the structure of government here is amazing open and accessible, and the culture is already liberty-oriented.

      If you'd like some details about why NH was a good choice as the target state, I suggest you read this PDF.

    19. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Oh yeah, and for 2nd-amendment types... the whole state is open-carry without any license, and concealed-carry licenses are on a "shall-issue" basis. Here's the NH Gun FAQ; and more entertainingly, here's what happened when some do-gooders in the Senate tried to make even the tiniest change to that shall-issue concealed-carry law. More video of that fun day is here

      Oh yeah, and a few weeks ago NH became one of only 4 states in the USA to allow same-sex civil unions. We are the only state to have done so purely on the initiative of the legislature, and not as the result of any lawsuit.

    20. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You'd probably get a significant increase in visitors from outside the US as well. I can't speak for terrorists, but I know that I have declined to visit the US on both professional and personal grounds since 9/11 — and not because I think terrorists are going to fly my plane into a building.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    21. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I really like this idea. I would like to see a free*insertstatenamehere*project.org for every state. It would certainly help me decide who to vote for in races where I may not be up on the latest positions or record of performance.

    22. Re:What it boils down to by wyverspur · · Score: 1
      No, a war spending bill was passed 100-0 in the senate.

      They simply paper clipped the RealID bill to it.

      At that time they didn't want to be seen as refusing to support our troops.

    23. Re:What it boils down to by The+Good+Reverend · · Score: 1

      I assume, however, that NH requires and issues drivers licenses? Has restaurant health codes? Anti-monopoly practices? Liquor and pornography laws? A whole slew of laws, rules and regulations, just like every other "nanny" state?

      There's always going to be government involvement in our lives as long as we live in a large society. Assuming your state is "better" because of the things you've listed ignores all the specific laws and rules of all the other states on a host of other issues. People love to talk about "state's rights" until the voters decide on something unsavory.

    24. Re:What it boils down to by ralatalo · · Score: 1

      Really...All the states need to do is... Require people to get a US passport. Pass the burden over to the Federal Government.

    25. Re:What it boils down to by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      While I support the FSP, The point is that the structure of government here is amazing open and accessible, and the culture is already liberty-oriented.

      If the culture were already liberty oriented, why are those liberty limiting laws in place?

    26. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 1
      Compared to a theoretical ideal, New Hampshire is abject tyranny.
      Compared to states like Massachusetts, Illinois, and California, it is shockingly free.
      Compared to states like Texas and Alaska, it's a matter of debate and personal tastes -- whether, say, taxes piss you off more than marijuana laws, or vice-versa.

      One last time: the assertion is not that New Hampshire is free; it's that it is amendable, by virtue of both culture and legislative structure, to being made free.

    27. Re:What it boils down to by aminorex · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I basically stopped flying after the first round of clampdown. I will only fly when it is strictly necessary for business, and I will usually decline business which implies flying. To do otherwise is to be complicit in the establishment of fascism and the evisceration of the rule of law. I am willing to compromise because sometimes the impact of a bloody-minded rigid adherence to single principle does more harm than good by riding roughshod over the preponderance of other principles.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    28. Re:What it boils down to by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Actually, you can board an airliner without any I.D. whatsoever. It just takes longer.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
    29. Re:What it boils down to by k1e0x · · Score: 1

      Yeah, The Free State Project is going to work. It's going to make our government listen to us again.

      --
      Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
    30. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 1
      Yeah, The Free State Project is going to work. It's going to make our government listen to us again.

      I'd say getting "us" elected and becoming the government is the only realistic way that will happen... and that's exactly what we're doing, on the local and state level. (Well, and on the national level too if Ron Paul wins -- see Ron Paul at the FSP Liberty Forum)

    31. Re:What it boils down to by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Honest question: Is the federal government going to pay as much attention to this New Hampshire law as it does to California's medical marijuana law?

    32. Re:What it boils down to by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      You are 100% right, as the state governments are just as supportive of the invasive practices as the feds.

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    33. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I tried that last summer, and failed. I calmly refused to provide ID, and volunteered for any sort of extra searching they wanted to do (as per Gilmore v Gonzales). I was told I could not pass without showing ID, no exceptions.

      I spent 3 or 4 minutes trying to get them to search me instead of providing ID. How long does it take? Is there a magic word I need to know? Do I need some special pixie dust? Jedi mind tricks?

      Really, I used to like flying. But I refuse to do so under the new "security" regulations. I used to like the train, too, but apparently they're similar these days. If I knew a way to get the TSA to follow the law, I might fly again.

    34. Re:What it boils down to by Plugh · · Score: 1
      Honest question: Is the federal government going to pay as much attention to this New Hampshire law as it does to California's medical marijuana law?

      Correct.

      The thing is, the medical MJ laws involve citizens doing something the Feds view as illegal. So they send in their armed thugs. In the case of Real-ID, the Feds simply won't accept a NH driver's license as "identification." So, if you need to show your ID to enter a Federal building, airplane, or whatever, you'll either need to produce a passport, have an alternate option (ie, "secondary search"), or simply be denied entry. The legislature is fully aware of this and debated it at length. It's considered to be a small price to pay.

      Check the speech that was given on the NH House floor. I swear, it gives me goosebumps!

    35. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I ran out of time before work so I couldn't follow up until now.

      I read through a few more of the items on that search page. It appears that they have put money aside to pay for RealID. Or at least they have told the Secretary of State to budget it. It also appears that there is a July 1, 2007 deadline date on one item.

      I just moved into this new district. I am not familiar with my state representative, but I am looking into them. I want them to tell me why they have not started revoking the RealID in Illinois. I want them to tell me and the rest of the state what is going on.

    36. Re:What it boils down to by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      The United States Government is saying "we're going to create these standards and you are going to pay to implement them" [...]

      Excuse me, but isn't that the way it always works? The Federal Government doesn't have an income stream separate[1] from the taxes it levies on the citizens of each state... In other words, if they had said "we're going to create these standards and we're going to pay to implement them" it would rather quickly be followed by "and this increase in taxes collected from each state is how."

      [1] -- Well, I suppose there's also taxes on residents of Washington DC, which isn't in any state; and Puerto Rico and other territories; and tariffs levied against foreign imports -- but for the most part it comes from the citizens (and, now I'm just making shit up; I guess there's a .gov site that will tell the truth).

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    37. Re:What it boils down to by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      your hypothesis appears false


      I think you outthought yourself on your logic. There's no reason a state that has a net outflow of money should be any more excited about unfunded mandates than states with a net inflow. That's the kind of logic that says if something is on sale, you should buy it whether you need it or not, since after all you're "saving" money.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    38. Re:What it boils down to by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      In other words, if they had said "we're going to create these standards and we're going to pay to implement them" it would rather quickly be followed by "and this increase in taxes collected from each state is how."


      Well, yes, that IS the point.

      The governor and state legislators don't want to be blamed for raising taxes to pay for something they never wanted and had no say in.

      If the federal government wants a particular program, then the elected federal officials who want it should also be the ones who have to raise taxes to pay for it. That way when voters get pissed off about the tax increase, they blame the right person on election day.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    39. Re:What it boils down to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to move to New Hampshire! I had no idea the state basically has everything I've been looking for socially and politically.

    40. Re:What it boils down to by pla · · Score: 1

      There's no reason a state that has a net outflow of money should be any more excited about unfunded mandates than states with a net inflow.

      Your choice of words expresses an idea that I did not.

      I didn't claim they would like Real-ID as an unfunded mandate - One can express a preference between two unpleasant situations without wanting either outcome . Just that, as the welfare-states have more reason to dislike it as an unfunded mandate, it makes sense that they would oppose it more than the sugardaddy-states, if we take them as primarily looking at this from the financial perspective.



      That's the kind of logic that says if something is on sale, you should buy it whether you need it or not, since after all you're "saving" money.

      "Need it or not" as the key phrase there. If you don't eat Tuna and it goes on sale, buying it seems stupid. If you stock up on really cheap toilet paper, you will eventually use it. And as a better analogy (a government mandated expense), none of us "need" auto insurance, but most states leave us no choice in the matter; so you may as well buy the cheapest you can find.

    41. Re:What it boils down to by Thing+1 · · Score: 1

      That makes sense. Thanks!

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    42. Re:What it boils down to by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      It isn't just the money. We are losing our basic Constitutional rights. The federal government in particular but also some states are gradually chipping away at our rights and freedoms, a little bit each year. REAL ID is one example. The USDA's National Animal Identification System (NAIS) is another example which takes away our traditional rights to own, raise, transport and sell livestock.

    43. Re:What it boils down to by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      I still content that NH, if its culture always was liberty oriented, would not have certain laws.

      I'm also not sure how any believer in freedom can pick and choose taxes vs. marijuana laws; both are an affront to freedom.

    44. Re:What it boils down to by Scudsucker · · Score: 1

      The USDA's National Animal Identification System (NAIS) is another example which takes away our traditional rights to own, raise, transport and sell livestock.

      Looking at your own link, the worst thing they say about the law is that it requires a label of country of origin, which would do squat to interfere with owning, raising, or selling livestock. Sounds more like the livestock industries penny-wise pound-stupid usual bellyaching, like when they wanted to keep doing their meat reclamation process to glean the last bits of meat off a carcass. They complained that while the process carried a high chance of cross contamination, it saved them $130 million a year. Of course the Mad Cow scare came by and cost them a couple BILLION dollars.

    45. Re:What it boils down to by pubwvj · · Score: 1

      You're confusing two different programs. COOL is the Country of Origin Labeling and that is a good program. It would be good to know that food is coming in to our country from other countries. Remember all the recent fiascos with toxic Chinese toothpaste, fish and other items. NAIS is the National Animal Identification System which would make it so that if you do not register your home, tag your individual animals and report to the government all their movements and interactions then you would be fined and could lose your right to own and raise livestock. NAIS is an infringement of our basic rights to raise our own food and an infringement on our rights to traditional farming. More over NAIS is heavily biased towards the big factory farms that get to use one Group ID and don't have to do tagging. NAIS is designed to first and formost help the meat exporters using your and my tax dollars. NAIS benefits big business and hurts small farmers and homesteaders raising their own meat. NAIS represents no benefit to the small farmers or homesteaders. NAIS also does not benefit consumers. COOL is good. NAIS is bad. Don't confuse the two. Cheers -Walter Sugar Mountain Farm in the mountains of Vermont http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/ http://hollygraphicart.com/ http://nonais.org/

  2. Airlines by ktappe · · Score: 1, Informative

    these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes
    Which the airline industry, because it usually gets what it wants, will probably keep from happening.
    --
    "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    1. Re:Airlines by wytcld · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm perfectly willing to carry my passport when boarding airplanes or visiting the White House. What I don't want is to have a driver's license that ends up all RFID'd (and you know they'll ask for that next if they aren't already), so that I can be easily spied on when I'm going about my business on the ground and outside the precincts of the Feds. My driver's license already is cross linked with all sorts of stuff - bank accounts, insurance policies, &c. - that my passport isn't (at least the firms only ask for driver's license # not passport). It works well enough as is for my purposes, and the purposes of those I do business with.

      And if you can afford an airline ticket, you can certainly afford a passport - which is a lot better than making even people who never fly pay more for a passport-level driver's license. As a side benefit, holding a passport may even lead more people to get out and explore the wider world, and get beyond the parochial American point-of-view on a few things.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    2. Re:Airlines by JustNilt · · Score: 1

      The one problem with this is that not everyone has a passport. It's not the sort of thing we traditionally go out and get unless we're planning to travel abroad. In addition, don't felons have their passports taken away or something? I could be wrong but I think a passport is one of those things felons lose. I know each state is different but that'd be a difficult thing to handle as felons don't lose the right to travel within their own state.

      Domestic flights are extremely common. How's someone supposed to board a domestic flight if they've got no passport? Should I wait 12 weeks (the current wait-time) to be allowed to travel within my own state? Passports are a requirement for international travel, not for domestic travel. I can't see that changing easily.

      The real problem with RealID is once a tool exists that government and corporations can use exists, it's rarely given up. Typically it's use is soon extended to other, previously unrelated, areas. Witness the abuse of the Social Security Number in our modern age. I, for one, have little to hide from the government but I still don't want my everyday life linked so easily for all the world to access.

      The simple fact is our government's agencies have shown themselves to be incapable of properly managing technology and data in a secure way. Why would I want all of my data assembled in one place for the wrong folks to steal or misuse? I certainly don't want my driver's license tied to any more than it already is. This is just a bad idea all around and won't really solve the problem they claim it's supposed to solve.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    3. Re:Airlines by tclark · · Score: 1

      Is there actually a standard for what sort of ID's an airline will accept? I seem to remember a newspaper story in which the reporter printed up her own official-looking id and used it to fly without difficulty.

    4. Re:Airlines by goaliemn · · Score: 1

      I've had a passport since I was a baby. My parents always considered it a worthwhile expense, just in case its ever needed. Its less than $100 for 10 years. Its not expensive. There's acouple of years until REAL ID is supposed to go into effect. Make getting a REAL ID compatible license optional. Those that don't want to spend the money for a passport are welcome to get the RFID/encoded/everything on it drivers license.

    5. Re:Airlines by natet · · Score: 1

      Perhaps you've forgotten the fact that all US Passports will eventually (within the next few years) contain an RFID chip, so you'll already be tracked wherever you go with that.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    6. Re:Airlines by proadventurer · · Score: 1
      For some reason many people including some agents of the TSA believe you need an ID to get on a plane. This is not true. You need ID to not have additional screening.

      I have personally taken people who do not have any ID on them through a security check point at Anchorage Int Airport (which is a class IV/V airport) which run not by contractors but by the. Everything you have gets extra screening and you get padded down, but they will let you through in most cases. Of course not that the war on terror is dragging on, the TSA let's managers of airports make small changes to screen procedures, and that gets out of control sometimes and we hear these horror stories on the evening news.

      --
      I hate slashdot
    7. Re:Airlines by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      1-2 seconds in the microwave and "huh, guess it's not working"

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    8. Re:Airlines by JustNilt · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not an expense issue that makes me object the the passport issue. The main issue for many folks is the lead time required. I have a passport personally as well but let's say I don't for a moment. I'm self employed and don't plan my schedule four months out, generally.

      Say I find my wife and I both manage to have a weekend off at the same time our son's visiting his grandmother. If we needed a passport to board a flight and one of us didn't have one, we'd be unable to take a spur of the moment flight up to the San Juan islands from Seattle, where we live. Well crap, there goes that romantic weekend. Say, for example, a relative in Florida dies. If you lack a passport, you're supposed to miss a funeral?! Bah.

      The issue is what right the federal government has to say what MY state decides is appropriate information to determine I am who I say I am? I'm pretty sure that's not a power granted to the federal government in the US Constitution. The right to travel freely within my nation's borders is potentially at risk. This is not a small issue yet many don't really seem to get it. This is a basic freedom.

      This law will be challenged as unconstitutional if it's not overturned before it's supposed to be enforced, mark my words.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    9. Re:Airlines by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      I'm perfectly willing to carry my passport when boarding airplanes or visiting the White House. Why?

      What good does it do? Do you really think forcing everyone on a plane or touring the whitehouse to carry a little paper book with their photo and an address in it does anything meaningful?

      I suspect you've fallen victim to the fallacy that identity equals intent. That if we can just somehow identify everyone, we can then refuse entrance to those who have the "evil bit" set in their profile. Reality doesn't work that way - just look at the "no fly list" - a list of people so dangerous that they can't be allowed on a plane, but so innocent that they can't even be arrested, never mind actually charged.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    10. Re:Airlines by whoever57 · · Score: 1

      I've had a passport since I was a baby. My parents always considered it a worthwhile expense, just in case its ever needed. Its less than $100 for 10 years.
      Really? Passports for minors cost $82 and last for 5 years.
      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    11. Re:Airlines by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      1-2 seconds in the microwave and "huh, guess it's not working"

      1-2 seconds in the microwave and "huh, guess you're not traveling."

      There, fixed that for you. No need to thank me.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    12. Re:Airlines by goaliemn · · Score: 1

      Not being a minor, and not having been one for many years, I didn't know the difference in cost. At $82 for 5 years, thats still less than $20/yr.

    13. Re:Airlines by goaliemn · · Score: 1

      It becomes an issue of "do you have a right to air travel?" If you did, the TSA wouldn't be able to stop anyone from boarding a plane. you don't have a right to take a last minute trip across the country.

      Your right to travel is not at risk. Your ability to travel via an aircraft may be hindered. You can still get in a car and drive, or take a bus, or take a train. That is why many people, who have said that security checkpoints at the airport are a constitutional issue limiting travel, haven't suceeded in getting rid of them.

      My take.. I think if the feds are going to require this for access to federal buildings/aircraft, they should make a cheeper passport. Something along the lines of a green-card looking id. You send your details into the passport bureau and get issued a card, valid for 10-15 years, or maybe indefinately, for a reasonable fee.

      Or, take the onus off the states to verify birth certificates/foreign documents. Most states don't have the knowledge/resources to verify this information. However, the passport agencies have copies of every birth certificate in the US, so they can confirm the validity, and they know most foreign documents. You send them into the feds, they verify and return some sort of letter/card to you, then the state issues your drivers license with a notation that your identity has been vetted. It should be voulentary, however. I don't like it, but I don't see how it'll be completely eliminated at this point. I hope its overturned, or at least changed.

    14. Re:Airlines by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      I agree that confirming a person's identity is not sufficient. However, establishing a person's ID does help you determine a person's intent based on previously documented behavior. It's the model on which the criminal justice system (criminal record), capitalist system (credit record), and even eBay (feedback record) are based.

    15. Re:Airlines by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      yeah right, like the guys in germany care that your rfid thing isn't working. Or yeah right, like they'll have a failure rate of 0. Hell, the rfid thing is just a convenience - all the required info is on there already.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    16. Re:Airlines by Poppa · · Score: 1


      What is really strange about the so-called rebellion of Washington State, is that they also passed a law to allow an enhanced driver's license to be issued. Dependent on approval by Homeland Security, it will have an RFID chip and other additional information that will allow people to use it instead of a passport to cross the border with Canada. It will not be required for everyone, only the people that want to pay an additional $40 and use it in lieu of a passport. (Cheaper than a passport.)

      So, Washington State's "rebellion" has more to do with an unfunded mandate, not privacy concerns.

    17. Re:Airlines by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Funny, because those kinds of assumptions typically turn out wrong. Just because you did something bad before, doesn't mean you'll repeat it again.

      Of course in our nanny state must have a law prohibiting anything but consuming, you're bound to get many people with 'bad' records. As for the credit agencies, I'd say we'd be better off without them.. now even having a good record is a liability.

    18. Re:Airlines by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      It's all about risk. A person that did something bad in the past (a crime, defaulted on a loan, misrepresented a product) is much more likely to do something bad again in the future. Conversely, there is much less risk when dealing with a person who has done little to no bad things in the past (no crimes, paid debts on time, postive feedback). This system actually does work well provided that each person has only a single ID, the person is adequately authenticated, and that a person's record is accurate, secure, and fairly managed.

    19. Re:Airlines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's the model on which the criminal justice system (criminal record), capitalist system (credit record), and even eBay (feedback record) are based. Your example models are so broad and varied they have very little applicability in this context.

      But taking your comment at face value, a key difference is that there are no records for people who have previously blown up airplanes - and if you want to focus on other characteristics, the rate of false positives will be close to 100% (as the no-fly list has demonstrated - zero true positives, and not in a deterrent fashion, if there had been deterrence it would have resulted in alternative targets, of which there have been none either).

      The key to figuring out intent, is to check for intent - not focus on bogus proxies like identity. Do it like the Israelis do - profile each passenger, and I'm not talking about ethnic profiling, I'm talking about behavioral profiling where each passenger is given a short screen - questions asked, responses gauged and a determination made to do further screening or let the passenger board.
    20. Re:Airlines by JustNilt · · Score: 1

      Regardless of there being other modes of travel available, there are times when air's the only realistic way.

      Aside from that, there's the constitutionality of the federal government mandating this. This is not a power enumerated in the US Constitution and is, therefore, specifically reserved to the states to handle.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
    21. Re:Airlines by natet · · Score: 1

      It's not the guys in Germany you need to worry about, it's the US customs agent you need to pass by upon returning to the US. Legislation has already been passed to require a passport for entry into the US from any port of entry (including from Canada and Mexico). Sure, all the required information is on the paper portion of the passport, but now, you'll have to sit and wait while they verify that you are who your passport says you are, or even worse, the burden of proof is on you to prove you are who your passport says you are.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    22. Re:Airlines by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      meh. It's still an official government document and the picture looks like me. The fact is, I don't like being a bomb magnet if I decide to go to Thailand (diving, dontcha know).

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    23. Re:Airlines by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      It's still an official government document and the picture looks like me.

      True. But it can no longer automatically link you to the database, because the RFID is wrecked. So instead of slowly walking through the arches with the feature-matching camera on them, they'll pull you aside and when they have the spare time, they'll hand look up your stats. Then they'll want to know why your ID isn't working, so they'll look it over. They'll find it's been crushed, and tell you that you need a new one, and send you home - so you're not going to *get* to Thailand, or Germany, until you have a working ID. You'll probably be admonished for not taking better care of it, and charged a few hundred bucks for the issuance of a new one. As soon as they get around to getting it to you, you can reschedule your flight, or boat, or whatever, and try again.

      In other words, if you can think of smashing your ID, so can they, and they'll be dead certain to ensure that you are maximally encouraged to take better care of your ID. Remember: The government is not the airline. They don't have to be efficient. They don't have to make money. They don't have to see to it that you get where you want to go, on time, or at all. If you give them any trouble, instead of speeding up the process, it'll probably earn you a cavity search.

      There's nothing more pitiful than ignorant bravado in the face of almost unlimited power. All it'll buy you is trouble. The more you exhibit, the more trouble you'll get. They don't have legitimate authority, but they do have power. Don't get the two confused.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    24. Re:Airlines by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Crushed? No, zapped. The verbage on the state dept website acknowledges that some passports will be damaged that way, and frankly, only an idiot would travel with an RFID chip in several parts of the world, given the new chip that's in passports. AFAIK, only the US does it, so it's a big flag for those who like to blow up americans, and thanks to our woeful foreign policy, there sure are a lot of them.

      As for you, you're speculating wildly.

      There's nothing more pitiful than ignorant bravado in the face of almost unlimited power. All it'll buy you is trouble. The more you exhibit, the more trouble you'll get. They don't have legitimate authority, but they do have power. Don't get the two confused.

      And if you just knuckle under as your government strips your freedoms away, you deserve to be shot.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    25. Re:Airlines by fyngyrz · · Score: 1

      I'm not advocating knuckling under. Check my posting history.

      However, there is a huge difference between attempting to run head-on into a wall, and climbing over it, or simply taking it down brick by brick.

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    26. Re:Airlines by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      Really? Passports for minors cost $82 and last for 5 years.


      Well then he must be lying if he doesn't remember what his parents paid for his passport when he was an infant!
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    27. Re:Airlines by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      It's all about risk. A person that did something bad in the past (a crime, defaulted on a loan, misrepresented a product) is much more likely to do something bad again in the future.

      That's actually the main point I was contending; I don't believe people are necessarly much more likely to repeat bad behavior.

      This system actually does work well provided that each person has only a single ID, the person is adequately authenticated, and that a person's record is accurate, secure, and fairly managed.

      You raise another point. I would argue that you can never keep an accurate, secure and fairly managed record. You simply can't jot down a few 'facts' about someone and say you can accurately predict their behavior.

      Finally, you need to consider the possiblity that such lines of thought end up being self re-enforcing. Someone is convicted for a second crime because he was convicted of it the first time, although in the second case there really isn't any solid evidence. It happens quite a bit. Lets also not ignore those that get convicted and have never done anything wrong (including the crime they were convicted of).

  3. Good! by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2

    Enough of the federal government spitting on the 10th amendment in the name of the WOT...

    --
    1. Re:Good! by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      While I agree with you in principle, the unfortunate reality is that the federal government will probably wind up blackmailing non-compliant states into submission.

      I'm old enough to remember the country-wide 55 mph. federal mandate that was put in place durng to the last energy crises. States that did not comply with the mandated maximum speed limit (I think Wyoming was one) lost their federal funding for highways and transportation.

      OTOH, we already have a federal ID. It's called a passport. Washington can (and has) changed regulations and requirements for passports. They should leave drivers' licenses and state issued ID's alone.

      --
      What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
    2. Re:Good! by garcia · · Score: 1

      I'm old enough to remember the country-wide 55 mph. federal mandate that was put in place durng to the last energy crises. States that did not comply with the mandated maximum speed limit (I think Wyoming was one) lost their federal funding for highways and transportation.

      We're all old enough to remember lowering the DUI limit from .10 to .08 because if your state didn't they would lose that same federal funding.

    3. Re:Good! by pilgrim23 · · Score: 1

      I cannot recall the exact quote but knowing this crowd, I am sure it is but a post away: Robert Hienlien once said something like: "When a government gets to the point where it requires identity papers, it is time to move off planet"
      Similar to the old Daniel Boone line: "when you can hear the sound of your neighbor's axe, it is time to move to the next valley"

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    4. Re:Good! by MobyDisk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think this is a scenario in Game Theory. And the states played it wrong.

      Scenario: Big guy tries to coerce the little guys into doing something they don't want to do by offering them a competitive advantage. This type of coercion cannot work if all the little guys agree not to acccept the advantage. They remain on equal footing. But if one of them does, they all must do so or be left at a competitive disadvantage. The mafia works the same way, and it only works because of human greed. The states were accepted the "federal funding" deals from the government. This happens on highways, schools, etc. Now they are stuck - they can't go back now, but they don't want to comply with the ever-increasing dirty deeds they must perform. It's exactly how the mafia works. If nobody paid the protection money in the first place, we would all be better off.

    5. Re:Good! by spikedvodka · · Score: 1

      Problem with that theory as applied to this. (It's a variation of "The Prisoner's Dilema") http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

      Obviously the Ideal scenario for both criminals is neither talks, but if they don't talk and the other does, they get the slammer forever and a day. The logical result is for the criminal to talk (state to accept the "federal Funding" deal) Because that way they know they get at least a lighter sentence, and have no chance of maximum time.

      --
      I will not give in to the terrorists. I will not become fearful.
    6. Re:Good! by natet · · Score: 1

      Just to set the facts straight, the bill this was attached to was an immigration reform bill, not a War On Terror (WOT) bill.

      I'm of two minds on the RealID act. On the one hand, there are some serious privacy concerns that need to be addressed. IIRC, RFID is also mandated for the cards, which I really don't like. However, unlike many of the supposed security measures that have been implemented lately, there are actually some tangible benefits to this system. Better information sharing between states, harder to forge drivers licenses, better tracking for sex offenders, and those are just the things I could think of in 2 minutes.

      I think this is going to go the way of many unfunded mandates. The states will refuse, and the feds will bluster a bit, then eventually back down. Though it would really suck in those states that refuse if the feds don't. Federal money for road maintenance is tied to the implementation of the RealID act.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    7. Re:Good! by bender647 · · Score: 2, Informative

      New Hampshire already passes on some Federal funding (bribes), being the only state in the union that has refused to pass a seat belt law at the expense of highway funding.

    8. Re:Good! by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      They may have attached it to immigration for precedural purposes but it is no secret why they support this bill. Statement of Administration Policy: H.R. 418 - REAL ID Act of 2005: "The Administration strongly supports House passage of H.R. 418, to strengthen the ability of the United States to protect against terrorist entry into and activities within the United States. In particular, the legislation tightens procedures for non-citizen entry into and presence in the United States, facilitates the building of physical barriers where appropriate to protect U.S. borders, and facilitates the strengthening by the States of the standards for the security and integrity of drivers' licenses." "The Administration will also work with Congress to consider biometric screening of individuals who cannot otherwise satisfactorily demonstrate citizenship or lawful immigration status. Biometric screening, which is applied to most entering classes of aliens through the US-VISIT program, would be a valuable tool in identifying possible links to terrorism."

      --
    9. Re:Good! by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      This is the exact same Game theory scenario that caused almost all states to start awarding their electors to the electoral college in winner take all blocks. The first few states that did it saw a short term advantage, as they were courted by the national party more than similarly sized states that didn't. Then everyone, with a very few exceptions, jumped on the bandwagon and that same everybody ended up back with the same relative political significance as when they started.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    10. Re:Good! by magarity · · Score: 1

      Problem with that theory as applied to this. (It's a variation of "The Prisoner's Dilema")
       
      Not really since the prisoner's dilemma requires that neither be allowed to talk to each other. In the world of state vs federal politics, the state governors meet annually and nothing at all prevents them from issuing a joint resolution to do x in response to the federal government demanding y. Well, all of them would have to successfully sell strategy x to all of their respective state legislatures but that's the step after.

    11. Re:Good! by Paracelcus · · Score: 1

      The Gummermint has been spitting on the constitution for some time and not in the interest of fighting terror, they (the Gummermint) will terrorize it's citizens with ever more draconian laws and harsh penalties for everything. Any time some parasite (politician) wants to make points with his constituency he will "get tough on crime" or invoke the "War on terror" which usually means passing more unnecessary, useless, redundant laws. If the states don't succeed in killing this latest attempt to abrogate the individual liberties that we (Americans) have been used to it will be a precursor to the Orwellian "Ambulatory permit" without which you will be arrested and imprisoned to better increase the bottom line of the privatized prison system already in existence.

      The US Gummermint has turned paranoia into reality!

      --
      I killed da wabbit -Elmer Fudd
    12. Re:Good! by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Just curious - why are you all hot to track sex offenders? They aren't all that likely to reoffend.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    13. Re:Good! by cayenne8 · · Score: 1
      "We're all old enough to remember lowering the DUI limit from .10 to .08 because if your state didn't they would lose that same federal funding."

      We're also old enough to remember when many states had the legal drinking age a 18....but, were blackmailed into raising to 21 due to highway fund witholding....

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    14. Re:Good! by Smight · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think now the smart move as a state would be to switch back to representative electoral college. Especially if your are a stronghold state for some party. That way giving a little face time to a state you can't win in might still result in some votes; ignoring a stronghold state could cost the you also.

      --
      IOU one (1) signature
    15. Re:Good! by JimBobJoe · · Score: 1

      While I agree with you in principle, the unfortunate reality is that the federal government will probably wind up blackmailing non-compliant states into submission.

      That might occur, but this is actually a touch harder. As I've understood things, there still needs to be some relationship between the blackmailing and the item for which the government is doing it. The 55mph speed limit was a requirement on government highways that the federal government pays for. The raised drinking age was to prevent drunk driving on the federal government's highways.

      They would have a devil of a time tying the Real ID act to highway funding. I suspect if they could have, they would have already.

    16. Re:Good! by bhalter80 · · Score: 1

      As someone who carries a national ID in disguise, a commercial driver's license (CDL), every day of my life and having some exposure to the rationale for national IDs. The story starts way back in the 1950
      s and before where each state did their own driver's licensing and didn't talk to eachother about anything. This left a huge law enforcement problem where one truck driver could have many licenses from as many states as there were at the time and often did so that in case one got suspended another could be used. This was fixed in the 1990's when the DoT took over the issuing of commercial driver's licenses to the extent that there is a check done when you apply for a license, renewal, or duplicate that you don't have any other licenses, that you are who you say you are, and that you are in the system as qualified (passed a road test and the written tests). So the way the system works today my NH issued CDL already has a whole bunch of extra information attached to it in some computer somewhere.

      This is the part where the relevance comes back, I'm OK with a national ID card system as long as there are significant restrictions put in place as to who can demand access to it and what the identifying number can be used for. I see that system where the requirement to produce such identification is clearly defined to be a benefit over the current system where anyone can require you to produce your "identification" for any purpose and that identification can have a variety of information on it and based on the state where your state issued ID card was issued may fall at any point in the spectrum of counterfitability.

      Moving to a uniform standard for the card seems like a good thing so that for example you won't be detained for extra time at a traffic stop in NJ if you have a license from Alaska because the officer is unfamiliar with the document and thinks it somehow looks forged. Also different states take different measures to protect the data on your license in NH your license number is composed of the month you were born, the first 2 letters of your last name, the first letter of your first name, the day of the month you were born, the last 2 digits of the year you were born, and a sequence number. This seems pretty easy to forge and to find if someone were stealing your identity. When I moved out of Massachusetts they were still using your social security number as the default but you could ask for a randomly assigned S number if you wanted.

      Is REALID perfect, not by any stretch of the imagination. But it does seem better than the current system where state IDs are handed out like candy in 50 different varieties that law enforcement has to make sense of, with varying degrees of protection for your personal information, and in a fashion where you can go around collecting IDs from many states (as long as you don't want a CDL :) )

    17. Re:Good! by garcia · · Score: 1

      We're also old enough to remember when many states had the legal drinking age a 18....but, were blackmailed into raising to 21 due to highway fund witholding....

      My comment was from the last year and thus why I mentioned it. Your's was not. I don't ever remember an 18 year old drinking age.

    18. Re:Good! by natet · · Score: 1

      I hope that you're being sarcastic. Sex offenders have a rate of recidivism that is among the highest of any crime.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
    19. Re:Good! by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      there are actually some tangible benefits to this system. Better information sharing between states, harder to forge drivers licenses

      You want a national id because of these? Prove it a natioanl id will make it harder to forge any id not just drivers licenses. Though I've read studies showing a national id will make id theft easier I haven't seen any that shows it will be harder.

      Falcon
    20. Re:Good! by Peter+Mork · · Score: 1

      If by "highest of any crime" you mean lower, then absolutely! From the US Bureau of Justice: "Sex offenders were less likely than non-sex offenders to be rearrested for any offense --- 43 percent of sex offenders versus 68 percent of non-sex offenders."

      Sorry to stand in the way of an unrighteous rant, but there's statistics, lies, damn lies, and the $h!t that people wipe off their asses.

    21. Re:Good! by natet · · Score: 1

      Nice statistic (would have liked to see a citation, but this is /.), but a totally fallacy. Let's break down this statistic. What it says is that sex offenders are less likely to be arrested for any offense (emphasis mine). This means that a person arrested as a sex offender is less likely to be picked up on grand theft auto, drug related offense, armed robbery, etc, than someone arrested for a non-sex related crime. I can totally believe that. However, the wikipedia article you got this from (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender since you didn't bother to cite your source) also says in the next sentence: "Sex offenders were about four times more likely than non-sex offenders to be arrested for another sex crime after their discharge from prison -- 5.3 percent of sex offenders versus 1.3 percent of non-sex offenders." (which is equally misleading and just as useless a statistic as the one you quoted). What the studies quoted in the article don't do, and I haven't found one that does, is show how much more likely a person convicted of a sex crime is to commit another sex crime, compared to a person convicted of a non-sex crime committing a similar non-sex crime (i.e. armed robbery and assault, or drugs and burglary). That would give a better feel for the recidivism rate of sex offenders vs non-sex offenders. Additionally, the 1994 study that wikipedia quotes only covers the 3 years following the release of the sex offenders in the study. A longer term study would be more desirable as well.

      Believe what you will, but your "statistic" proved absolutely nothing.

      --
      IANAL... But I play one on /.
  4. My senator never heard of it. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1, Offtopic
    Got this letter from one of my senators a while back.

    Thank you . . .

    . . for contacting me about the electronic surveillance of people in the United States by the National Security Agency (NSA). I share your serious concerns about this program.

    I am pleased that pressure put on the President by the newly-elected Congress, as well as the American public, made clear that our Constitutional rights aren't negotiable. In January 2007, Attorney General Gonzales announced that after an internal investigation, the administration would end electronic surveillance of American citizens unless it received a warrant. This means that the administration must petition the FISA Court if it wants to electronically monitor U.S. citizens.

    It is critical that we relentlessly pursue terrorists who seek to do us harm. However, we must make sure that we do not undermine the very rights and way of life that we are seeking to protect. While I do not sit on the Senate Judiciary Committee, I will continue to relay your concerns to my colleagues. I will continue to support strong congressional oversight and closely monitor any new developments on this issue.

    Thank you again for contacting me. Please feel free to do so again whenever I can be of assistance to you and your family.

    Sincerely,

    Debbie Stabenow

    United States Senator

    DS:jm I wonder which Washington she's been spending her time in.
    1. Re:My senator never heard of it. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Ah, crud. I are an idiot. I pasted the wrong letter. The one I meant to paste was the one where she didn't believe there were any national ID programs planned.

      This is the one I meant to paste:

      Thank you . . .

      . . for contacting me regarding your opposition to a national identification system. I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this important issue and I share your concerns.

      There are currently no plans in place to institute a national identification system, although some people have suggested this idea as a measure to combat terrorism. Any such system would face serious legal and constitutional challenges. For example, implementing a national identification system would potentially infringe upon recognized privacy rights and the right to travel within the United States. Like you, I am very concerned about protecting our civil liberties from unnecessary government intrusion. I am aware of this concept, and will continue to monitor this situation closely.

      Thank you again for taking the time to contact me. Please do not hesitate to do so again whenever I may be of assistance.

      Sincerely,

      Debbie Stabenow

      United States Senator

      DS:jm
    2. Re:My senator never heard of it. by paleo2002 · · Score: 1

      I think its good to see both letters. Yeah, obviously that second one is from Lala Land, but the first letter is a good contrast. Its good to see that some people are working and some institutions and ideals are still being upheld.

      As long as letters to your senator or congress person result in a polite response rather than a SWAT team visit, things can't be all that bad.

    3. Re:My senator never heard of it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahh, good old Michigan.

      Don't worry about it, there's no way that Michigan could pony up any kind of real cash to meet the requirements of the RealID anyway. Kwame Kilpatrick would probably use his share on a new escalade, or hiring more of his jailhouse baddies anyway.

    4. Re:My senator never heard of it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe I'm being too cynical here, but part of the debate regarding Real ID is whether it constitutes a "national ID" scheme. Your senator may be very much aware of Real ID, but doesn't consider it a national ID, and therefore feels justified in telling you there are no plans to implement such a thing.

    5. Re:My senator never heard of it. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      As long as letters to your senator or congress person result in a polite response rather than a SWAT team visit, things can't be all that bad. She never responded to any of my letters until just before her first reelection, during this last cycle. While I don't particularly care for the responses Carl Levin sends me, he at least has responded to nearly every one of my letters.

      Though I was a teenager at the time, I also remember the campaign that got her elected. Her opponent didn't sling half as much mud as she did. Stabenow is a professional politician, not a professional constituency advocate.
    6. Re:My senator never heard of it. by Short+Circuit · · Score: 1

      Actually, that would be right in line with her behavior. See my other comment on her political habits. She's a professional politician, not a professional populace representative.

  5. Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    They change their license format every 5-10 years anyway. Having a unified repository of ID's is something that should have been done to begin with. They didn't say the changes had to be done tomorrow, and the pros outweigh the cons.

    Passports are the same throughout the states, license plates are the same.. social security numbers are the same... What's the big deal? Who is it hurting? Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man".

    --
    "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    1. Re:Big deal. by Baba+Ram+Dass · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Who is it hurting? Everyone who thinks the government should obey the Constitution, for starters.
      --
      Truckin like the Doo-Dah man...
    2. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      So, civil services and social security are non-constitutional because they're not run by each state?

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    3. Re:Big deal. by Baba+Ram+Dass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      When the federal government passes laws regarding issues not enumerated in the Constitution, they are ignoring the 10th amendment. Pretty cut and dry, you would think...

      --
      Truckin like the Doo-Dah man...
    4. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I see what you're saying.

      Aside from all the legalities, do you think that having a unified ID across the states is a bad idea?

      I'm just saying that rather than fighting it, it should have been something that was done a long time ago.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    5. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "Having a unified repository of ID's is something that should have been done to begin with."

      Why? the delegation of identification is not, constitutionally, the purview of the federal Government and as such it falls under the 10th amendment. Just because something might be a good idea and might be useful does not mean it should be forced on the states despite clear constitutional roles. The more money and or information you give the federal government the more power you hand them.

      They didn't say the changes had to be done tomorrow, and the pros outweigh the cons.

      I don't think letting the federal government continue to push unfunded and unconstitutional mandates is any small measure of 'bad'.

      Passports are the same throughout the states

      Passports are not issued by the states

      license plates are the same

      No they are not EG California has a format of 1ABC234 and Minnesota has ABC-123

      social security numbers are the same

      Not issued by the states, they are issued by the fed for federal taxing purposes.

      What's the big deal? Who is it hurting?

      Evidently the states who have to let the federal government make decisions for them and the force the states to pay for it.

      Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man".

      Oh yea cause if you don't have anything to hide why would you be against repealing the unlawful search and seizure provisions of the constitution. I am assuming you mean illegal immigrants who don't want to be tracked and if they are already here illegally why in the heck would this stop them.

      --
    6. Re:Big deal. by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Next up: the National Barcode Tattoo Act. Should have been done a long time ago. You have no objections, do you, citizen?

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    7. Re:Big deal. by bar-agent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So, civil services and social security are non-constitutional because they're not run by each state?

      Yes, they are, but at this point it is too late to end those programs at the federal level and replace them with state programs. Which is too bad. I, for one, would like to see some states take a more Canadian approach to public services while other states take a more free-market approach, and compare and contrast the results. States have a powerful function as "laboratories of democracy," as I believe someone said. And once a few states work out the initial bugs in their plans, other states can implement the best solutions, and everyone would be better off.
      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    8. Re:Big deal. by thebdj · · Score: 2, Informative

      Passports are the same throughout the states Yes, because those are issued by who? The correct answer is: The Federal Government. States are not footing that bill, nor have they ever footed that bill.

      license plates are the same *BUZZ* Oh, sorry that answer is incorrect. Some states list counties on their plates, others require two plates, while some only one. Some states have specialty plates that others do not. The way the tags and registration are charged is different by state or municipality. About the only way they are similar is in the fact that the identify a state and have numbers (or letters or both) on them.

      social security numbers are the same Please see my statements on the passport discussion above. You cannot compare federally issued identifications (which have their own myriad of uses) to the driver's license.

      What's the big deal? Who is it hurting? Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man". This is a violation of civil liberties? It violates the 10th amendment, for which we already fought one civil war. (Trust me, the American Civil War was about more then just slaves.) It hurts all Americans. It has nothing to do with being monitored, but everything to do with privacy over security. It happens the two are really mutually exclusive and you cannot achieve both at the same time. I think you will find that we are creeping up to the line where people are not willing to cross.

      Also, this is a lot more about money. States do not want to foot the bill for a government project. If the feds really wanted "National ID cards", then they should setup the infrastructure and absorb the costs to do it; unfortunately, they do not know how and it would be a disaster, just look at the time it takes to get a passport.
      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    9. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Passports aren't issued by the states... was one of my points. They're universal. License plates across the states are the same, and DON'T carry a different format such as european plates. As far as illegal immigrants go, they can still get ID's locally and not be tracked throughout the nation, only locally if THAT. They can also board planes after that point.

      Pick apart everything I say because of your beliefs on fighting the man. Having a unified set of ID's, just like the military, is not a bad idea. People are fighting this shit because of politics, not because it's a good or bad idea.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    10. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 0, Troll

      Fight the man! Wooohoo! Because tattoos and ID's are the same when we're talking politics! Right on BRUTHA, YOU MAKE THAT POINT!

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    11. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All I can hear in my head when I read about this national ID program is "Paper's please"...
      which is quickly followed by a vision of my freedoms and rights being flushed down the toilet
      Which is finalized but a vision of Bush on a giant stage yelling (complete with the flying spit)
      "I'm an protecting your freedom, I am protecting you from terrorists, I am winning the war on terror
      I have passed the laws to prove it! I will stay in office as long as it takes to protect the American way of life.
      Your freedom is in my hands, now get out of my way and let me win at everything!
      Then I pass out for a few hours and have to drink myself to oblivion to blot out the repeat, Bush is winning the war on American Citizens...

    12. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Having a unified repository of ID's is something that should have been done to begin with.

      So now, instead of having to forge 50 different license formats in order to satisfy the thousands and thousands of college students with hundreds of dollars who want a beer, the criminal faction only has to learn how to forge one?

      Excellent plan there, focus all of the criminals' resources on one target and hope that when the lobbyist insists that it can't be forged, they actually mean it.

    13. Re:Big deal. by cbeaudry · · Score: 1

      Please detail these pro's you are talking about.

      We are all very interested, because I have not heard ONE single pro to having a unified ID system.

    14. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your sig became quite appropriate when I read your post.

    15. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      We're going to find out that our "civil liberties" are going to start costing lives. Because of politics and PC thoughts, we won't be able to do shit to stop what people trying to make a point have caused. It's not about right or wrong... it's about politics and rules that were set back before the country was so fucked up.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    16. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 3, Informative
      Passports aren't issued by the states... was one of my points. They're universal.

      Because they are intended for use with foreign entities. Passports are not a required form of ID to have in the US, only if you wish to travel outside the US.

      License plates across the states are the same, and DON'T carry a different format such as european plates.

      Again, no they are not!

      (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_license _plates_in_the_United_States) "For example, the small states Delaware and Rhode Island are able to use formats of 123456 and 123-456, respectively, while California uses the seven-character format 1ABC234, and several other populous states use the seven-character ABC-1234 format." and "In some states, information such as county of registration or month of expiration is incorporated into the number. The last number on a Massachusetts license plates indicates the month the bearer's registration expires (1234 AB would expire in April, the fourth month; zero is used for October expirations"

      As far as illegal immigrants go, they can still get ID's locally and not be tracked throughout the nation, only locally if THAT. They can also board planes after that point.

      Right because our real problem with illegal immigrants is that they fly!

      Pick apart everything I say because of your beliefs on fighting the man.

      Has nothing to do with an innate distrust of authority but thanks for bringing your straw man to the chat, he might make for better conversation than you are.

      Having a unified set of ID's, just like the military, is not a bad idea.

      Never said it was a bad idea I said it was unconstitutional. We dont jsut do things because they are, at the time, a good idea. I also said granting power to those who in the future might abuse it is not a good idea either. That the kind of thinking that lets you elist in the military at 18 but not celebrate it with a drink until you're 21.

      --
    17. Re:Big deal. by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Passports are the same throughout the states,


      Passports are a federal document, not state. I would hope they were the same.

      icense plates are the same..

      No they're not. There are a minimum of 500 different license plates for the states. More than likely, double that number due to the specialty plates once can get. I know in PA there are fourteen different license plates one can get not including the generic one.

      social security numbers are the same...

      Again, that's a federal issue, not a state issue.

      What's the big deal? Who is it hurting? . . . those who don't want to be followed by "the man".

      You answered your own question. I distinctly remember when I was younger, people would talk about how the folks in the Soviet Union and their satellite states would spy on their own citizens, track their movement, who they talked to, etc. In fact, my dad told me that as a ham radio operator, regardless of where in the Soviet Union you talked to someone, you sent your QSL card to one central box number in Moscow.

      Forcing a national ID card on people is nothing less than doing exactly what Reagan and others harped about what was wrong in Russia for over five decades. Why would we want to follow that example?

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    18. Re:Big deal. by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Actually yes. Please point out where in the Constitution that the Federal goverment has the power to implement such programs. Unlike what Bush would like you to believe there is no such thing as 'implicit' powers. Just the opposite. Unless the Constitution says the Federal government has the right to do something, they expressly DO NOT have that right.

    19. Re:Big deal. by Applekid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ah, but then there's Article One, Section 8. Congress has been exploiting this by broadly interpreting "General Welfare", "Interstate Commerce", and "Necessary and Proper" for the past 150 years.

      They're sure as hell not going to throw all that extra power away.

      --
      More Twoson than Cupertino
    20. Re:Big deal. by triskaidekaphile · · Score: 1

      Passports are not up to the states. States are not allowed to restrict travel.

      License plates are up to the states, but the automotive industry makes the cars and they don't want to make 50 different types of license plates mounts.

      Social security numbers are assigned by the federal government.

      Immigrants are not the only ones who don't want to be followed by "the man". Any freedom-loving individual wants the same.

      --
      @HbFyo0$k8 tH!$
    21. Re:Big deal. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1

      Why? the delegation of identification is not, constitutionally, the purview of the federal Government and as such it falls under the 10th amendment. Just because something might be a good idea and might be useful does not mean it should be forced on the states despite clear constitutional roles. The more money and or information you give the federal government the more power you hand them.

      However, regulation of immigration is in the federal governments purview, per Article 1 section 8 paragraph 4.
      Coupled with Article 1 section 8 paragraph 18,

      To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

      Congress has the right to establish laws concerning national standards for ID cards as it would be a means of identifying citizens, immigrants, and aliens, both legal and illegal, which falls under laws concerning naturalizations (USCONS Art1 Sec 8 Para 4).

      In fact, using Article 1 Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, Congress has the right to create a national ID card, because it would be a law created under paragraph 18 to support paragraph 4.

      Perhaps you should learn the Constitution before trying to interpret it.
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    22. Re:Big deal. by Dog-Cow · · Score: 1

      If your life is the first to be lost, that in turn will save uncounted lives, as well as preserve liberty for the rest of us. Your kind of thought let Hitler implement his policies.

      All that is required for evil to triumph is for good to do nothing.

    23. Re:Big deal. by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Insightful

      States have a powerful function as "laboratories of democracy," as I believe someone said

      That would be Louis Brandeis, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court. Sandra Day O'Connor had a similar thought process in her dissent in Gonzales v. Raich: "Federalism promotes innovation by allowing for the possibility that "a single courageous State may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."

      Where are those justices when you need them?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    24. Re:Big deal. by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      Fight the man!
      That's the first intelligent thing you've said this whole thread. Rather than (further) facilitating a national "show us your papers" environment, we should all be manning the barricades to prevent any further loss of our civil liberties. Big Brother is already running this country (and a few others) - you just haven't noticed yet.
      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    25. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      Yes Civil Liberties cost lives, thats the first correct assertion you have put forward. The first lives were in the revolutionary war. Seems to me to be cowardly to give up those hard fought liberties in the name of security.

      --
    26. Re:Big deal. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      We're going to find out that our "civil liberties" are going to start costing lives.

      Civil liberties have never cost nearly as much lives as the lack thereof. Could, say, 9/11 have happened in the USSR? Probably not, but I don't think that would have been much comfort to the folks in the gulag.

      Because of politics and PC thoughts

      Oh, yes, damn those PC thoughts! Dumb politics like "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity ..."

      it's about politics and rules that were set back before the country was so fucked up.

      The rules you're complaining about were set by people who had recently won their independence from the world's largest and most ruthless empire, in a country that was barely sure of its own continued existence, under constant threat of being wiped out by warring imperial powers and/or or thrown back into the sea by local powers, and beset by constant internal violence. The idea that Constitutional rules were created in a naive world where things were less fucked up than they are today is absurd. Americans are safer today than they have ever been, and the only real threat to their continued well-being is their propensity to imagine themselves under some unique threat from outside.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    27. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      No that I don't notice it, I just don't care. I have nothing to hide, yet the rules protecting me also protect those who want to kill our families. I'm not going to fight the government because of a political view, rather than what I feel is right in ways, ya know?

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    28. Re:Big deal. by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      "So wait, who protects the people from their government?"
      "Terrorists."
      "...oh."
      Interesting sig. Good point.
      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    29. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 2, Informative
      However, regulation of immigration is in the federal governments purview, per Article 1 section 8 paragraph 4. Coupled with Article 1 section 8 paragraph 18,

      Yes that would be why states don't issue green cards. How does that contradict what I said?

      "Congress has the right to establish laws concerning national standards for ID cards as it would be a means of identifying citizens, immigrants, and aliens, both legal and illegal, which falls under laws concerning naturalizations (USCONS Art1 Sec 8 Para 4)."

      Identify Citizens (Passport), Immigrants (Green Cards), and this license scheme is aimed at citizens not aliens.

      Perhaps you should learn the Constitution before trying to interpret it.

      Perhaps you should RTA and my opinion before trying to garner what I think about national ID. We have one and its called a passport what section 8 does not say is that the id can be compulsory that is for the courts to decide and it certainly has nothing to do with making states format their ID to match the federal standards.

      --
    30. Re:Big deal. by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 1

      So you really are espousing the idea that honest people have nothing to fear from their government. Me, I'm a big fan of the 2nd Amendment, you know, the one where the founders of a country created through revolution against a legal government basically stated that the governors had to rule at the consent of an armed populace.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    31. Re:Big deal. by dualkarnain · · Score: 1

      This is an excellent point that highlights possibilities provided by the intended spirit of our Constitutionally-limited federal government. We're stuck with a self-perpetuating economic-political machine that has diminished states' rights of self-determinism. The federal government should assess and recommend domestic standards. Not dictate and enforce. I'm glad to see Dr. Paul getting media time to put these ideas out to sheeple who sway with the wind blowing.

    32. Re:Big deal. by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      Bravo. Beat me to it. Someone give the parent a mod point.

      National ID is not at all meant to deal with naturalization. As was said, we've got the green card. Plus, since current citizens would have to get this ID as well, that supercedes any naturalization argument and becomes a generic 'ID' argument, which is not explicitly enumerated.

      Thus it falls on Amendment 10: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    33. Re:Big deal. by Peter+La+Casse · · Score: 1

      When the federal government passes laws regarding issues not enumerated in the Constitution, they are ignoring the 10th amendment. Pretty cut and dry, you would think...

      Their reasoning goes something like this: people sometimes engage in interstate commerce. Therefore, any law that affects people affects interstate commerce.

    34. Re:Big deal. by NateE · · Score: 1

      I hand my current State drivers license for identification. The picture is given a glance and returned to me. I'm on the plane.

      I hand my new, Real ID State drivers license for identification. The picture is given a glance, they swipe it. I submit to fingerprint or retinal scan and it matches whats on the card. I'm on the plane.

      Also think of going through this on your first day at a new employer.

      Seems to me that there are security and citizenship verification reasons behind Real ID. However, its an unfunded mandate. Congress needs to be brought up short on their financial irresponsibility.

    35. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1

      Thanks I had never heard that one but I agree with the concept whole heartedly.. Its why I am against national health care.

      --
    36. Re:Big deal. by BoberFett · · Score: 1

      Create enough laws and everyone is a criminal. I'm willing to bet that you do have something to hide, you just haven't been investigated yet. When investigation becomes a simple matter of asking a database that has been tracking you your entire whole life, it's easy to investigate everybody. Do you still say you have nothing to hide?

    37. Re:Big deal. by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 1
      Great, another dumbass who can't read.

      There is no new ID to get. Perhaps if you were to read you would understand that. It sets minimum standards for ID cards and minimum standards proving one's identity when getting an ID card.

      "National ID is not at all meant to deal with naturalization."
      It is called RealID and one of the functions of the standards is to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining ID, thus allowing law enforcement to better identify citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal aliens.

      "since current citizens would have to get this ID as well, that supercedes any naturalization argument and becomes a generic 'ID' argument, which is not explicitly enumerated"
      Actually, that does not supersede the naturalization argument, nor does the power to create a national ID need to be "explicitly enumerated". That is why Article 1, section 8, paragraph 18 exists. It allows Congress to pass laws on subject not explicitly stated in the Constitution.

      And, seeing as ID cards are matters of public record, I will refer to Article 4, section 1:

      Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.

      Which gives Congress to make laws concerning how public acts and records are proved. RealID would also fall under that article as well.

      You need to study up on the whole Constitution before making arguments that are not supported by your own statements.
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    38. Re:Big deal. by stoicfaux · · Score: 1

      Passports are the same throughout the states, license plates are the same.. social security numbers are the same... What's the big deal? Who is it hurting? Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man".

      People who don't want to be followed by the man might be: gays, non-whites, "dissidents", members of political parties (such as libertarians , communists, NORML), religions (Mormons, non-Protestants, Muslims, cults), political activists, anyone who doesn't like Bush, activists who want to legalize drugs (California) & prostitution (Nevada), whistle-blowers, people who buy violent video games, nosy reporters, and so on.

      It's not that a National ID wouldn't be useful. It's just that we do not trust a strong centralized government to do what's right, especially when everyone has a different definition of right. Do you think the people of California, Nevada, and Utah want to keep giving power to the federal government until the feds can one day overturn their state laws?

    39. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Good point, sir.

      I, myself, am a big fan of the 2nd amendment. I understand where you're coming from.

      I guess the only reason I have an issue with the whole ID schpiel is because I think it's a good idea to have a certain set of ID's, or database for that matter, that use certain guidelines. The way it's being pushed and taken care of isn't the greatest, but, you catch my drift.

      Thanks for being respectful throughout your posts (unlike my outburst), it's much appreciated.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    40. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      My apologies for being irate, I just feel that sometimes some of the set rules hurt us, just as much as help.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    41. Re:Big deal. by Nalarik · · Score: 1

      Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
      - Benjamin Franklin

    42. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I do have things to hide. I've done a lot of drugs, stole things as well as numerous other college festivities... and 3 days ago I stuck a booger to the bottom of a table. ;) I'm sure they have bigger fish to fry, and google probably has more info on me than they do.

      I see the point you're making, and it's a good one. But, if I think that an ID is going to track everything I do, (or think about how many times I show my ID).. I'm not really AS concerned... but, like I said, I see what you're saying.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    43. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Good call. Great post, sir.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    44. Re:Big deal. by thebdj · · Score: 1
      Seriously, if you believe that (and more people like you believe that) then we as a country are in really big trouble. There is a good quote, mis-attributed to Benjamin Franklin, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Whether Franklin said this or not, this was made LONG before this "country was so fucked up." Another quote, this one actually by a founding father, Thomas Jefferson, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

      It seems to me the idea of liberty and freedom have existed in this country long before today. Our ancestors died defending our liberties in the American Revolution, we fought a Civil War that was largely based on states' rights, and people have fought in wars sense in order to "defend our freedom".

      Because of politics and PC thoughts, we won't be able to do shit to stop what people trying to make a point have caused. You know something, it is already too late for that. We live in a "fear society". Our "enemy" appears to be always changing, we are policing our neighbors, people are being locked into "secret" (and not-so-secret) prisons and being denied rights afforded by both US and international laws. This has nothing to do with being PC, I am far from PC. I believe before you come back and start posting that everyone is acting "PC" or this is some sort of strictly political opinion that you really go grab a history book (or two) and read up on how America got to be where it is today.
      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    45. Re:Big deal. by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      It is called RealID and one of the functions of the standards is to prevent illegal aliens from obtaining ID, thus allowing law enforcement to better identify citizens, legal immigrants, and illegal aliens.

      No it wont it will make it easy for law enforcement to identify people without drivers licenses!

      --
    46. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Benjamin and Jefferson had quite a bit to say, and I'm certain it was perfect for their time. I do believe in freedom, as well as civil rights and other rules they fought for. Don't make me out to be a Nazi.

      On the other hand, these statements were made before the telephone, cell phones, planes, suicide bombings, school shootings, drug deals, nuclear bombs and other means of instant harm and communication even existed.

      If any of the makers of the constitution could even imagine that a single bomb ignited by a person that was a thousand miles away, by a person that hated everything he stood for... was even possible... I'm sure they'd think they would have made a bit more revisions on some of the rules that are being exploited.

      Nowadays, anyone will jump the gun at whatever proposition or action is made, is automatically the fault of whatever political side one is against. Though tracing phones or triangulating a cell to find out it's position in an emergency, MAY be good, it just depends on who's trying to use that information. If a law is created by the government, or even a proposition by a different political party... it doesn't matter if it's a good idea. It will be picked apart due to the political side who created it, just to make them look bad.

      I understand everyone's uncertainty.. and I know it's easy to pick apart a post and find the weak spots and chomp on them like a wounded baby in the herd... but, we need to start thinking about when the line between security measures and civil rights is out-dated.

      Granted, I know there are so many variables in pros and cons of every situation... but there are quite a few problems that could be avoided, given that special-case amendments are made for these special circumstances.

      I'm not saying that every spiteful statement against the government is wrong, but, not every one is right.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    47. Re:Big deal. by n5vb · · Score: 1

      Passports are the same throughout the states, license plates are the same.. social security numbers are the same... What's the big deal? Who is it hurting? Basically immigrants and those who don't want to be followed by "the man".

      The biggest problem I see is it makes data mining, profiling, and related invasions of privacy several orders of magnitude easier. (Oh, no, the government wouldn't tell us that it won't use the data for that and then turn around and do it anyway without telling us! .. Yeah, right. I got a bridge to sell ya, kid.) The danger is not in the data actually stored in the database, it's in the accessibility of the data for indexing and pattern detection, and other methods of data extraction that are impractical now but become feasible if it's all centralized and standardized. There's such a thing as making personal information *too* easy to search through .. I'd kind of prefer to leave mine in the control of my own state. Some of my opinions aren't real popular with the current administration, and I'd kind of like to remain free to express those opinions ..

    48. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Someone else pointed that out as well, and I know what you mean. Though I don't think that any of us really use our ID's THAT much.. aside from bars and such. Then again, that wouldn't stop them from making laws to show your ID for everything. It would be nice to have the history of everyone that's showing their ID to buy guns and such.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    49. Re:Big deal. by thebdj · · Score: 1

      Benjamin and Jefferson had quite a bit to say, and I'm certain it was perfect for their time. I do believe in freedom, as well as civil rights and other rules they fought for. Don't make me out to be a Nazi.

      As I recall, I do not think I ever invoked "Godwin's Law" in this discussion. You said that our civil liberties are going to start costing lives. So, how many human lives is freedom x worth? There is the saying, "Freedom isn't free." It is true. People have died for quite some time for our liberties. As I've mentioned, there was the American Revolution. African Americans died for their freedoms during the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. Being complacent and saying, freedom isn't worth it if it is costing lives is bad. I already fear for a society that cares more about Paris Hilton going to jail then about the foreign and domestic issues facing this nation.

      On the other hand, these statements were made before the telephone, cell phones, planes, suicide bombings, school shootings, drug deals, nuclear bombs and other means of instant harm and communication even existed.

      So, because we have furthered technology, we deserve less freedoms? We found ways to kill each other 250 years ago; the only difference is, today we are more efficient at doing it. You want to invoke our modern society, let me take a quote from the 9/11 commission report: "Our history has shown us that insecurity threatens liberty. Yet, if our liberties are curtailed, we lose the values that we are struggling to defend." And as much as I dislike the thought of invoking Reagan, "# Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free."

      Nowadays, anyone will jump the gun at whatever proposition or action is made, is automatically the fault of whatever political side one is against. Though tracing phones or triangulating a cell to find out it's position in an emergency, MAY be good, it just depends on who's trying to use that information. If a law is created by the government, or even a proposition by a different political party... it doesn't matter if it's a good idea. It will be picked apart due to the political side who created it, just to make them look bad.

      Oh, I am perfectly willing to accept every political ideology and group is fucked up. I am libertarian and even I cannot fully subscribe to some of the beliefs of the party (but that is for another discussion). Each group has ideal versions of the world and the country, but the fact is we do not live in an ideal world, we are not ideal beings, and we are never going to have these idealistic fantasies. Some people only see things as black-or-white. I have heard people who were hard-lined Republicans blame laws that were enacted and enabled by Republicans blame it on the Democrats. People are stubborn and changing their views is not easy, especially when they are prone to believing everything they see on CNN (or Fox News) and read in their daily paper.

      I understand everyone's uncertainty.. and I know it's easy to pick apart a post and find the weak spots and chomp on them like a wounded baby in the herd... but, we need to start thinking about when the line between security measures and civil rights is out-dated.

      It will never be out-dated. I challenge someone to find me a state where you can have absolute security and absolute liberty. It does not exist. There is a line, where people will no longer sacrifice their freedom for security; however, maybe if we turn the temperature up slow enough, people will not realize we are being cooked, so by the time they realize what is happening it will be too late.

      As someone who has worked with security and works in the computer security f

      --
      "Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
    50. Re:Big deal. by AndersOSU · · Score: 1

      It violates the 10th amendment, for which we already fought one civil war
      Didn't the side that won basically say that the 10th amendment doesn't mean what you think it does?
    51. Re:Big deal. by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      They're sure as hell not going to throw all that extra power away.

      No. Like a certain king you may recall, King George III. However, these quotes from filthy rebels may ring a bell:

      When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station...

      ...That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

      ...all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...
      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    52. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      Good post, man.

      I don't want you to get the wrong idea about me, I just think that some laws or amendments could risk being modified for present-day situations. For example, in the case of a missing person, one shouldn't have to go through 2 days of paperwork and warranting to get authorization to commit a vital triangulation. I'm not saying that EVERY phone should be tapped for any reason, but, you catch my drift. I know some people would think that if you give them a foot, they'll take a mile... but in the case of missing children and such, a person can travel 10 states in 2 days.

      I hope you see that I'm not against taking freedoms away, but at least changing some of the few that could stand to be a bit more harsh, OR lax in some cases.

      I really enjoy your posts.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    53. Re:Big deal. by louisadkins · · Score: 1

      I have to show some sort of ID when I get a job, when I go to the hospital, when I do almost anything in a local, state, or gov building, and (more and more) when I buy something with a CC, Debit card, or check.

    54. Re:Big deal. by Mockylock · · Score: 1

      I'd hope so. And I'm sure that's documented and able to be tracked by SSN as well, without a national ID... so you're not really losing out.

      --
      "Please, shut up. Just when I think you can't say anything more stupid, you speak again." -Archie Bunker.
    55. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That the kind of thinking that lets you elist in the military at 18 but not celebrate it with a drink until you're 21 OT I know, but this is something I always found strange with America. I once had it explained to me that this is the reason for 3.2% beers, so that underage enlistees would still be able to drink.

      Is it true that 3.2% was once legal at age 18? was that suddenly changed or some such? or was i receiving misinformation.
    56. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whatever you think of the principle, there are sound practical reasons why social security should not be left to the states.

      Each state would assume that if it introduced better benefits than its neighbors, every bum, loser and dropout would gravitate to it. Result: there would be an instant race to the bottom, and most - perhaps all - of the 48 states, at least, would end up with no social security at all.

      You may think this is an exaggerated claim... but consider this:

      Everyone agrees the health care system is a mess, leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured - and there's absolutely nothing to stop any given state from introducing its own program to bridge that gap. So, off the top of your head - how many states have done anything about it? Go on. You know the answer.

    57. Re:Big deal. by EonBlueApocalypse · · Score: 1

      Very well put.

    58. Re:Big deal. by Rick1357 · · Score: 1

      I can point you to how it came about. Chief Justice John Marshall in Marbury v. Madison gave us the basis for strong judicial review-- that the Supreme Court was really supreme. A bit later, along came McCulloch v. Maryland. This was an argument over whether Maryland could tax a federal bank and turned a lot on whether the feds even had a basis for establishing a federal bank. John Marshall, in a tortured decision, said that Congress may act under explicit or implied powers and that all that stuff that otherwise appears in the constitution about taxes, borrowing and regulating commerce implied that Congress could establish a bank.

      Marshall wrote perhaps the single most important sentence in Constitutional literature: "In considering this question we must never forget that this is a Constitution we are expounding." This was a document that gave us the guidelines for a nation and it was meant to live, breath and guide for future generations. It was not specific!

      One can only wonder where Marshall got this stuff. It's not in the text of the founding documents. Marshall concluded that Congress has the right to choose any means not prohibited by the Constitution to carry out its broad powers.

      It doesn't stop here but this is the beginning of it all.

    59. Re:Big deal. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I doubt it. But liquor laws are made state to state... I can only vouch for Massachusetts, where I can remember 18-year-olds driving to Vermont (or maybe New Hampshire) to buy beer, since they couldn't do it in-state. The federal 21 drinking age is mandated through highway funding -- set it below 18 and your state's share drops to zero.

      But that's a whole nother raft of issues. I've never heard of any kind of law based on proof.

    60. Re:Big deal. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      So, civil services and social security are non-constitutional because they're not run by each state?

      It depends on what civil services you're talking about. As for social security, there is no Constitutional authority for it. Nor is it needed. From the tyme people start working fulltime they should be saving and investing. If a person starts saving $2000 a year from the age of 18 until they reach 25 by the tyme they are 65 they will have almost a million dollars invested at 10%. If they delay work to go to college and get a BA or BS they start saving a few years later but then they can invest more once they start working. Of course the sooner they start investing and the more they do the more they will have. When money is taken out of a person's paycheck though for social security they will not have anywhere near the same rate of return. And because more money would be invested without social security the economy woud be better, more money invested means more jobs created at higher pay.

      Falcon
    61. Re:Big deal. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Aside from all the legalities, do you think that having a unified ID across the states is a bad idea?

      Yes.

      I'm just saying that rather than fighting it, it should have been something that was done a long time ago.

      I totally disagree!

      Falcon
    62. Re:Big deal. by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Each state would assume that if it introduced better benefits than its neighbors, every bum, loser and dropout would gravitate to it. Result: there would be an instant race to the bottom, and most - perhaps all - of the 48 states, at least, would end up with no social security at all.

      Some states might view benefits in that light, but other states might consider that the new residents drawn in by these benefits might increase the tax base enough to offset the bums that come in. Also, don't forget that any benefits will be paid for by taxes on state residents, in addition to federal funds. The bums may like the benefits, but if the state taxes are also higher, that might act as a disincentive for them.

      Everyone agrees the health care system is a mess, leaving tens of millions of Americans uninsured - and there's absolutely nothing to stop any given state from introducing its own program to bridge that gap. So, off the top of your head - how many states have done anything about it?

      More states might do something if they had more money. If the federal programs were ended or reduced, and the funding for those programs returned to the states or the states' residents, the states might have more discretionary income to devote to such programs of their own.
      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
    63. Re:Big deal. by dualkarnain · · Score: 1

      Actually, many if not all states have programs to pick up the slack Medicare/Medicaid leaves behind. County hospitals funded by their municipalities which receive state funding, for starters. I would go as far to say that cities and states are picking up the brunt of the healthcare crisis whereas Washington just spends with accountability. Inflation cyclically rises and we're left with an overburdened system. I'd like to see all the money go to States to individually decide how to insure their residents. It would produce more local accountability by not giving state politicians an easyh out to say "Washington DC broke it." As for a race to the bottom: this is more true in our present federal scenario. Having little or no visibility, people get on the welfare train and there's a disconnect between handing off local/state social services and those relying on federal subsistence. Every state has a different outlook and needs- one size rarely fits all in our multiplicitous union. A greater percentage of Americans than not prefer to work hard and succeed in life. Bottom-climbers (what a label) are exceptions rather than the rule. Systemically we already gateway bottom-climbing beyond reasonable amounts. This happens as a result of political survival pandering legislation by the behemoth elements and hawing asses in DC. I quite like Arnold's proposal in California that stipulates employers - even small ones - to either provide a level of health insurance or a marginal percentage will be taken from paychecks to contribute to the catch-all state insurance. While I think government-sponsored insurance programs are bloated self-subsisting entities with no focus on competative quality or care, I think this plan would be greatly improved by creating a renewable, blind bidding process for private insurers every year or two that would: 1. Provide the most benefits for the least cost 2. Have service/accessibility benchmarks weighted in the bidder profiles 3. All pre-existing medical conditions covered 4. Guarantee service acceptance for all at public and private practicioners 5. Limit legal liabilities to gross malpractice That being said, the three contributors to our health care crisis can be summed up as: 1. Lack of pre-existing coverage limitations 2. Health insurance tied to employment 3. Cost of medical care 4. Ability of insurers to deny coverage to individuals Thus sick, poor people between jobs are penalized the most. Address these systemic root-causes, in any way, and universal coverage begins.

  6. Call Your Senator Now : +1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait


    To support the impeachment of the biggest recipient of weapons bribes.

    Pax,
    K. Trout, C.E.O.

  7. religious reasons? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have a 5 cult following, and if I want to make a state for one of my groups, does this mean I have to get a different ID for each of my identities in each of the 5 cults? If I'm in a state that accepts this new federal law...I guess not. I win when privacy loses!

  8. I can see an issue here. by rucs_hack · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not too long after they stop accepting IDs from those states that refuse to take part in Real ID I can see something of a Civil rights thing happening.

    Just how long have we got to wait until the Neo conservative ruling class get deposed?

    I'm something of a fan of Pulp SF, particularly the early stuff, your EE 'Doc' Smith and the like. His worlds were full of the kind of people who would love this stuff. Fanatically loyal, good clean white folk, ready to believe, and die for, anything a government told them. They were also undeniably Aryan in nature.
    When it comes to fiction, especially fiction of such historical importance to the world of SF I am willing to dismiss such concepts as products of a different age and enjoy traversing the early history of SF. However, to see people trying to change America in such a way that only the fictional American Aryans of the 1930's would accept it as is, is a frightening thing indeed.

    1. Re:I can see an issue here. by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      Not too long after they stop accepting IDs from those states that refuse to take part in Real ID I can see something of a Civil rights thing happening.

      Ok, fair enough, with you here.

      Just how long have we got to wait until the Neo conservative ruling class get deposed?

      A little weird now... "deposed?" The answer is, "until you vote them out," by the way. Then we get a new ruling class of bleeding-heart pinkos.

      I'm something of a fan of Pulp SF, particularly the early stuff, your EE 'Doc' Smith and the like. His worlds were full of the kind of people who would love this stuff. Fanatically loyal, good clean white folk, ready to believe, and die for, anything a government told them. They were also undeniably Aryan in nature.

      Uh... ok... you're losing me now.

      When it comes to fiction, especially fiction of such historical importance to the world of SF I am willing to dismiss such concepts as products of a different age and enjoy traversing the early history of SF. However, to see people trying to change America in such a way that only the fictional American Aryans of the 1930's would accept it as is, is a frightening thing indeed.

      And, bam, there it is. Totally lost.

      If I'm understanding you right, you're saying that Aryans of the 1930s would accept reading 'Doc' Smith fiction? Or something?

    2. Re:I can see an issue here. by rucs_hack · · Score: 1

      I'm guessing you haven't read much early American pulp SF. The ideal human (white, attractive, fanatically obedient to the state) was very much the order of the day in the fiction of that era.

      My point is that only people like that would accept the kind of controls being placed on the American population without a fight.

      deposed may not be the right word, but hell, since elections appear to be just as easily won in the courtroom as in the counting room, I wonder how wrong I am.

    3. Re:I can see an issue here. by Duhavid · · Score: 1

      RealID: The Lens of the Arisians! You, too, can be a Lensman!

      --
      emt 377 emt 4
    4. Re:I can see an issue here. by Eli+Gottlieb · · Score: 1

      However, to see people trying to change America in such a way that only the fictional American Aryans of the 1930's would accept it as is, is a frightening thing indeed. Now class, which group that tends to vote liberal did Aryans of the 1930s virulently despise?

      They've already started coming for the gays. Let's see which minorities these neo-Aryans lash out at next.
  9. And states do it to municipalities by geoffrobinson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...at lest in my state. Unfunded mandates, as they are called, are definitely nothing new. And states are no saints in this matter if they are anything like New Jersey. (sorry, have to call out my home state)

    --
    Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
    1. Re:And states do it to municipalities by Billosaur · · Score: 1

      Sadly, yes, not only is our Governor too stupid to wear his seatbelt, but he hasn't done much to stop the unfunded mandates, nor lower property taxes significantly.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    2. Re:And states do it to municipalities by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      While I am not wild about taxes, I would not mind as long it was wisely used. The problem comes in when we get taxed (wether at 1% or 60%) and it is wasted such as what the federal admin currently does.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:And states do it to municipalities by Dausha · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Unfunded mandates"

      Unfunded mandates is the natural effect of Congress' abuse of its Spending Power. Once upon a time, Congress' power to spend was limited to spending necessary to fund its other enumerated powers. Somewhere in time (1930s?), Congress began to expand its realm and the Courts acquiessed.

      Now, it is generally believed that Congress can legislate anything provided it allocates funding first (barring some Amendment violation). So, for a while Congress started funding all sorts of crazy things so it could enact laws beyond its enumerated reach. Eventually, Congress' ability to legislate overreached its ability to fund. Thus, Unfunded Mandates.

      What is needed is a concerted challenge in SCOTUS to return Congress to its legitimate role of legislating within its enumerated powers, and spending within those powers.

      The net effect is lower federal taxes.

      State legislatures, conversely, have no enumerated power limitations (in the U.S. Const. anyway). So, they can legislate all the social programs, etc. you want. Local officials locally responsible.

      Perhaps Congress could legitimately advocate for certain policies (e.g. Real ID), but it could not use money or the scent of money to enforce it. States have successfully legislated uniform reforms (Uniform Commercial Code, for example); but this is not absolute uniformity. The proper answer is State actions to make things uniform, not Congress imposing beyond its legitimate reach.

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
    4. Re:And states do it to municipalities by Gorm+the+DBA · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Well, since Cities are subunits of the State, with no independent Sovereignity (They are created and recognized by the State, and can be abolished by the State with no reprecussions, a State can not be abolished by the Federal Government), a State has the right to say "OKay, Toledo, you have to spend $1M this way".

      State's right's activists protest the fact that the Federal Government, which was created by the States not the other way 'round, has taken up the habit of saying "Okay Ohio, you have to spend $100M this way".

    5. Re:And states do it to municipalities by Guppy06 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "Somewhere in time (1930s?), Congress began to expand its realm and the Courts acquiessed."

      As tempting as it is for those espousing conservative political views to blame the New Deal, it actually stems from 1913. Unfunded mandates are nothing more than a natural consequence of removing the state legislatures' ability to say "no."

      This is not to say that the states themselves have not been complicit in this (after all, they only object to expansion of federal powers when it's politically expedient), but blaming politicians rather than the system they now use to gain power is treating the symptoms rather than the disease.

      "What is needed is a concerted challenge in SCOTUS to return Congress to its legitimate role of legislating within its enumerated powers, and spending within those powers."

      What you propose is a reactive solution, requiring constant challenges from outside agents against the federal government in federal courts against particular legislative acts. Of course, it's more politically expedient than a proactive course.

      "So, they can legislate all the social programs, etc. you want. Local officials locally responsible."

      You presume that the states don't want federal control over such social programs. Contentious political issues can end a political career, and a federal legislator with exponentially larger constituencies can take more political risks on such issues than a state legislator, for whom a few votes can make or break an election. State legislatures and officers only challenge Congress when it is politically expedient for them, and wouldn't stick their necks out to jealously guard their constitutional powers if it means siding with terrorists or pedophiles.

      And besides, in the specific case of social programs, while the constitutional methods of federal control may be questionable or odious, the benefits and overall cost savings through the economies of scale should be obvious. Even if what you or I propose were to come about, there is certainly no guarantee that the various programs you seem to be against would be ceased rather than reformed through more legitimate means.

      "States have successfully legislated uniform reforms (Uniform Commercial Code, for example); but this is not absolute uniformity."

      The political risk of enacting the Uniform Commercial Code was negligible at its worst. Disaffected civil libertarians can more easily make their influence felt in state legislative elections, making it more difficult for the states to make such legislation than it would be for federal politicians. Politics that need not be legitimately founded in constitutional concerns can and do get in the way of what is truly "necessary and proper" and there is no guarantee that such concerted, independent efforts could bring about just and effective government. Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about the Constitution to begin with, as the Articles of Confederation would have sufficed.

    6. Re:And states do it to municipalities by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      As tempting as it is for those espousing conservative political views to blame the New Deal, it actually stems from 1913


      I would think that is was more a direct result of the US Civil War. Let's face it, the Civil War forever changed the de facto balance of power between the federal government and the states (for both good and ill). It was, ultimately, the federal government saying that states do not have the ultimate right to say "no" to something simply because they disagree.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    7. Re:And states do it to municipalities by Dausha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "As tempting as it is for those espousing conservative political views to blame the New Deal, it actually stems from 1913. Unfunded mandates are nothing more than a natural consequence of removing the state legislatures' ability to say 'no.'"

      Citing the 17th Amendment does nothing to my assertion that the Court began serious abdication of authority in checking Congress in the 1930s. The confrontation between FDR and the Court (such as the Court packing plan that failed) and his ability to outlast them and appoint legislation-friendly justices directly precipitated the abdication I refer to. What the 17th did was allow lobby interests to directly bribe 100 Senators rather than the 100s of state legislators. And, while you're blaming conservative political views on my perspective, an extremely progressive law professor of mine openly admited that the New Deal was another "re-writing of the Constitution." While a harbinger of future excesses, distancing the Senate from the legislature does nothing to my argument about the Court failing to check Congress.

      "What you propose is a reactive solution, requiring constant challenges from outside agents against the federal government in federal courts against particular legislative acts. Of course, it's more politically expedient than a proactive course."

      So, while attacking a solution, you fail to provide a counter. The solution must be reactive as the condition already exists. A proactive course would have been to prevent the incursion before it occurred. Perhaps by proactive you suggest that Congress itself govern itself. This is a laudable ambition, but ambitious men in Congress are too focused on maintaining power than of returning it to the People, or the states respectively. What should be ironic to you is that one, whom you claim espouses conservative views, would prefer to legislate through the Court; a tactic more commonly used by those with progressive views. A Conservative point-of-view would prefer Congress act sua sponte, or perhaps agitate for a new amendment to curb Congress.

      "You presume that the states don't want federal control over such social programs."

      You assume I presume. My whole point was that there should be local accountability for social programs. Our government, perhaps more now than before, has become one of passing the buck. Each power point blames another for the state of things and the People are lethargic.

      Economic benefits of federalizing social programs is beside the point. Congress lacks legitimate Constitutional authority to legislate social programs. State legislatures inherited absolute legislative authority from Parliament, not Congress. States are given absolute legislative control with caveats (e.g. no war declaration or money coining). Congress is only given legislative control of a few areas where a bunch of men in wigs thought minimally necessary to keep the states together and function as a group. And, I submit to you that a uniform code for social programs would convey many of the same benefits.

      I cite the UCC as but one of several uniform codes. There are others which have met with lessor success. Even the UCC is handled with variation among the states. Granted, there was minimal political cost by the premise that banks across the U.S. should agree to follow roughly the same rules. That's just sound (interstate) business. Others, such as the Model Penal Code, have met with less apparent success.

      I'm not saying that a uniform code is without political consequences. You're comments seemingly fail to grasp my core points. First, Congress has usurped its authority and none have checked it. Second, that political consequences should be felt at the local level. You're explaining _why_ Congress has gotten away with it. I do not address the obvious reality of motive.

      I would respond by saying that your comments underscore the anti-democratic nature of social legislation passed by Congress. If these programs were asserted at the local level, it may well have been political suicide

      --
      What those who want activist courts fear is rule by the people.
  10. The more states that rebel, the merrier ! by RedneckJack · · Score: 1

    So far, it is mostly small states that are rebelling but bigger states need to rebel like California, Texas, NY. Unfortunately, CA is looking at going along to get along.

    On the unfunded mandate, you will get abused and pay for the privilege thereof !

    1. Re:The more states that rebel, the merrier ! by bk2204 · · Score: 1

      The Texas Legislature just recessed until January 2009; by the state constitution, the legislature can only meet for 140 days every two years, unless called into special session by the governor. Since there was no enabling legislation in Texas, Real ID won't be implemented here; it would violate parts of the Government Code permitting people to view and correct errors on information about them, among other laws.

  11. Everybody is missing the states rights issue by Danathar · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Separate from this issue is the precedant of states refusing to follow the orders of the Federal Government. What will be REALLY interesting is if these states succeed and then try the same strategy with other federal statutes the states don't like.

    1. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by Stalin · · Score: 1

      Precedent: an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.

      In this case, see:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

    2. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by RoboRay · · Score: 1

      "What will be REALLY interesting is if these states succeed"

      No pun intended, I'm sure? :p

    3. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by Dragonslicer · · Score: 1

      More recently, several states, such as my home state of Maine, passed laws that essentially made marijuana a prescription drug. It's nice to see states that are willing to go against the federal government and do what they believe is best for their residents.

    4. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      This is not a state's rights issue. The Federal Govt. is not forcing the States to comply. They are however setting an identification standard for Federal use. Federal use includes going through TSA security at airports etc. You can always get a federally issued ID (like a passport) for this purpose if you wish. If a state wants to issue DLs printed on copy paper typed out on a typewriter with no breeder documents required that's fine; just don't expect the Federal Govt. to let you use that to identify yourself to them.

    5. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Yeah, and my friend recently declared pot to be a legal euphoric to be consumed in quantity in his house.

      Both declarations carry about the same weight with the Federal Government.

    6. Re:Everybody is missing the states rights issue by Danathar · · Score: 1

      Its good until the Federal Gov withholds federal funds OR marches troops down the state capital to arrest the governor and state representatives.

      There is a reason why the U.S. Flag is higher on the flagpole than the state flag.

      The U.S. constitution trumps state constitutions. Unless the state decides it no longer wants to be part of the Union.

  12. civil war by uepuejq · · Score: 0

    i guess we're headed that'a way.

  13. Money Money Money by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 1

    Emphasis mine. That's what makes this so unpalatable to the states, just like "No Child Left Behind" or welfare reform. The United States Government is saying "we're going to create these standards and you are going to pay to implement them" and the states are naturally balking at having to foot the bill for Washington D.C.'s foolishness.

    You're right and wrong. *Some* states are not balking at the concept, only the price. Montana and Washington State are treditionally independent. But most states simply don't want to pay for it, "foolishness" has nothing to do with it.

    --
    If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  14. There are a few solid if not often reviewed by zappepcs · · Score: 1

    standards that apply to government: Once it's made into law, it's very difficult to change it. Once it's written down, getting it taken off is nearly impossible, and that applies to names on lists as well. Once a program is implemented, the inertia is difficult to stop or reverse, for all the political and financial reasons that it is difficult to get rolling in the first place. If there is an opportunity for big business or big government to abuse something, they will, sooner or later. The ONLY way to prevent the inevitable abuses of national IDs is to never have them at all. No matter what minor benefits it might be believed they would bring, the opportunity for abuse is far greater. If that opportunity exists, it WILL be exploited. This program needs to be stomped to death and never repeated.

  15. The States are getting uppity! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Quick! We must elect President Lincoln to a 3rd term!

  16. Right... by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

    "However, these actions could eventually lead to drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes or accessing federal buildings"

    Yeah, cause entire states are not going to be able to buy plane tickets or enter federal buildings. I see that happening... I mean after all it's not like the airline industry has any lobbyists in Washington, and it's not as though the federal government will notice if suddenly all their employees in a given state stop showing up for work. I think we'll see that law either repealed or changed before we see entire states being told they can't fly...

    1. Re:Right... by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      It may actually be cheaper for some states (especially smaller ones) to not comply and have their citizens obtain US Passports if they want to fly. Sometimes we forget that many people never fly and that over 25% of Americans already have a US Passport. Also, Federal employees won't need a Real ID to access Federal facilities. They'll already have a Federal ID issued under Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12 (HSPD-12).

    2. Re:Right... by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, cause entire states are not going to be able to buy plane tickets or enter federal buildings. I see that happening... I mean after all it's not like the airline industry has any lobbyists in Washington, and it's not as though the federal government will notice if suddenly all their employees in a given state stop showing up for work.
      1. You can already fly on your passport, which is valid ID. You can use it to buy booze and such, too. Actually, you can get on an airplane without any ID now, but they subject you to a substantially more invasive security check.
      2. Even if this weren't true, the federal government would just issue some other kind of ID to employees who fly.
      3. ...and finally, the airlines are basically the government's bitches anyway. How many airlines haven't been repeatedly bailed out by the taxpayer? Some, you may have noticed, are permitted to fall by the wayside, while others are not. You may form your own conclusions about why this is.
      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  17. Oklahoma by Ian+McBeth · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am from Oklahoma.

    One of the reasons we don't want to spend all the $$ to comply with RealID, is that
    we just completely redid our driver's licenses in the last 4 years, at a significant cost.
    The new ones are much harder to fake, and have both index finger's prints electronically bar coded on them.
    Our ID's have plenty of info about us now, no more is necessary.

    The Fed, just needs to mind its own broken fences, instead of telling us how to keep ours from falling.

    1. Re:Oklahoma by ZeoRanger · · Score: 2, Informative

      I worked with the Oklahoma Department of Public Safety during the implementation of the new DL's, and helped deploy the new equipment. The 'touch signature' (fingerprint) that is captured is NOT encoded anywhere on the license. As of right now, these images are stored on a central server, and used ONLY as an additional means of verification when the license (or ID card) is issued / renewed.

      In addition to the fingerprint, the digital photo that is taken is run through facial recognition software - your photo is initially captured by a driver examiner when you take your driving test or apply for an ID, and then again at the Tag Agency where you actually receive your license / ID. The two photos are compared by the software, and the license is issued if there is a high match percentage (I don't know the actual number).

      (As an aside, this has virtually eliminated 'valid' fake ID's being issued, in the case of one person going and applying for an ID or DL, testing for it and being approved, and then giving someone else the verification document to take to a tag agent.)

      The state used to require two forms of ID to replace or renew a DL / ID; with this new system, your fingerprint and your photo fulfill that requirement and verify your identity without requiring any additional documentation.

      The barcodes on the license only contain the information that is actually on the front of the license - There is a standard barcode that contains the DL number and Date of Birth (if I recall correctly), as well as a '2d' barcode containing all the information (address, organ donor, etc).

      --
      -z-
    2. Re:Oklahoma by Awksjaw · · Score: 1

      I too live in Oklahoma. People identify themselves by engraving their first name on the belt.

      It gets really confusing when there might be three guys with the name of "Bob". Then we revert to nick-names. The solution would be:
      "Junior" (youngest Bob),
      "Tiny" (largest Bob),
      "Billy Bob" (missing most teeth).

  18. In fact, by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    I suspect that the airlines will shortly require Passports to travel with. They will allow for one of the licenses to work as well, but more than 50 states implement the license, then almost certainly, they will again use tax dollars as a wedge. After all, if it is not going to 49 states, then it can go to their state.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  19. Thoughts.... by Stanislav_J · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So the feds are going to tell a few million residents of these states that suddenly as of such and such a date they can no longer fly? Sure, like that's going to happen. We're already at or near the tipping point on this -- if even a few more states say "no thanks" it could hopefully sabotage the whole thing. This could turn into a major federal power vs. states rights battle -- after all, licensing is a function traditionally assigned to the state level.

    Realistically, though, I think sooner or later the Real ID monster will be unleashed, but after some additional delays and perhaps a grace period tacked on. At the very least, I want to see this debacle delayed until after July 2010. Cos that's the earliest that *I* can renew my license by mail for another seven and a half years (I can renew 18 months prior to expiration plus 6 full years beyond that). Then I'm set until January 2018, by which time I'll be 60 and too old to give a shit any longer.....

    --
    "Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." -- Eric Hoffer
    1. Re:Thoughts.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah - right. You think that'll work? They pulled this shit in New Zealand a while back - we originally had paper licenses without any identification other than your signature and eye colour, and they were issued for life. When they introduced the new photo-ID card licenses, you had a year. Then your "lifetime issued" license was no longer valid. Do you really think they'll do any different anywhere else? IF they introduce it, it'll be over a short period so that they can start demanding them for everything.

      Either that or they'll just stop accepting the old forms of ID - you'll have to carry your passport to buy booze and cigarettes...

    2. Re:Thoughts.... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Simple - you are missing the point. Why wouldn't the Federal Government simply require everyone to have a passport to fly anywhere? It would be a single, Federally-controlled ID that isn't given out like candy to children.

      In Illinois you can get a driver's license by (a) going to the Mexican consulate and getting a form and then going to your nearby Illinois Secretary of State office and picking up your license. No further identification is required. You are also automatically registered to vote at the same time, regardless of your citizenship, legal or illegal immigration status or anything else. We've put all the controls at the Mexican consulate which really doesn't care who has a license or what it says on it.

      This same situation exists in other states as well. In these states a "driver's license" is no more identification than the Man from U.N.C.L.E. identification card that came in a cereal box.

    3. Re:Thoughts.... by aminorex · · Score: 1

      Actually, no I.D. whatsoever is required in order to fly domestically. It just takes a bit longer to get through security in such cases. REAL ID has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to fly domestically.

      --
      -I like my women like I like my tea: green-
  20. Important question by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

    How many lives does it take for you to give up freedom?

    --
    (IANAL)
  21. I can hardly wait for Civil war 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The next decade is going to get REAL interesting, here in the states, and everywhere else in the world, too.

    What a time to be alive!

    Fuck the real ID.

    1. Re:I can hardly wait for Civil war 2.0 by savorymedia · · Score: 1

      The next decade is going to get REAL interesting, here in the states, and everywhere else in the world, too. What a time to be alive!
      I thought that was a Chinese curse. "May you live in interesting times."
      --
      1 is the square root of all evil.
  22. did not one person mention by SQLz · · Score: 1

    The privacy concerns or the fact the the US Government has no right to issue us all "papers". This should be handled at the state level, like it is now.

  23. IDs are for commercial airplanes. by fahrbot-bot · · Score: 1
    ...drivers licenses issued in these states to not be accepted as official identification when boarding airplanes...

    Or rather, commercial airplanes. I don't believe such rules apply to private or chartered planes, such as in which them rich peoples fly...

    --
    It must have been something you assimilated. . . .
  24. Passport != National ID by dazedNconfuzed · · Score: 2, Informative

    we already have a federal ID. It's called a passport. ...and nobody is required to have one unless they are entering the country (even then, there are alternate options), and nobody is expected to carry it everywhere and produce it on demand.

    By the Constitution, nobody is required to produce ANY paperwork (IDs included) for the feds unless a judge specifically says a specific person has to under specific conditions. "Real ID" grossly violates the Constitution.

    --
    Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
    1. Re:Passport != National ID by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1

      Well, that was exactly my point in bringing up passports. Citizens can and do have the ability to opt out.

      For states however, that's not always the case. If you're found wandering about as an adult without adequate ID in my state (Florida), that alone is enough to send you to jail until such time as you can produce some documentation confirming who you are. While I don't necessarily like this, I do understand the state's right to require it and feel that, for the most part, this law protects me more than it limits my freedom.

      Turn this right over to the federal government however, and that's a whole other matter. A central citizen's database is what I think is really behind this law and why it should have never been passed. And you're dead on in stating that the constitution/bill of rights are there to protect us from this very kind of thing. That doesn't stop them from trying to ram it down our throats anyway though.

      --
      What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
    2. Re:Passport != National ID by M.+Baranczak · · Score: 1

      Thanks for giving me another reason not to move to Florida.

  25. Put this to bed by Cracked+Pottery · · Score: 1

    A stupid law that was never debated, that will line up people outside DMV offices is every state, should be killed. I have an aging notarized copy of my birth certificate, but I am not sure that it would be accepted. I dimly suspect that this is intended to screw a lot of people out of their right to vote.

    Who might not be able to produce the needed proof of citizenship? Old folks and poor folks. It is like the voter picture ID law on steroids.

    Problem is, is that it doesn't add much to security, since professional terrorists will have the document manipulation down pat.

  26. States should refuse the federal income tax. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > I'm old enough to remember the country-wide 55 mph. federal mandate that was put in place durng to the last energy crises. States that did not comply with the mandated maximum speed limit (I think Wyoming was one) lost their federal funding for highways and transportation.

    Why don't states just then make the federal income take unconstitutional in their state. If the federal gvt withholds funding taken from federal taxes, then why should citizens of state X pay the federal income tax? States could pass a constitutional amendment making it illegal for the fed to collect income tax in their state and illegal for companies to withhold income or report it to the IRS. Put in a "succession clause" if the fed tries to subvert the state constitution and see what happens.

    1. Re:States should refuse the federal income tax. by thc69 · · Score: 1

      Put in a "succession clause" if the fed tries to subvert the state constitution and see what happens.
      Did you, perchance, mean "secession" clause? Because the whole time I was reading that, until I got to "succession", I was thinking "sounds an awful lot like secession".

      I googled "succession clause" and got stuff about who takes the place of a dead or incapacitated office holder...
      --
      Procrastination -- because good things come to those who wait.
    2. Re:States should refuse the federal income tax. by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      Why don't states just then make the federal income take unconstitutional in their state.

      Because it would take 2/3 of them to get a Constitutional Convention called. And then the herding of cats would begin. Of the two methods for constitutional amendment, only the proposal from Congress method has been used, ever. A single State cannot make something unconstitutional.

      Put in a "succession clause" if the fed tries to subvert the state constitution and see what happens.

      The Confederate States of America ring any bells? Several states tried secession, they failed. Granted, if meaningful change is going to happen, it's going to have to come from the bottom up; the State governments are not the bottom and are not going to be the source of change. The same political parties which control the Federal Government control the State Governments; and they like a heavily centralized power structure, it makes graft and corruption easier and more profitable (conservativism be damned).

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    3. Re:States should refuse the federal income tax. by Gyga · · Score: 1

      "Put in a "succession clause" if the fed tries to subvert the state constitution and see what happens."

      Ever hear of the American Civil War? Imagine it only being one state with small arms vs. 49 states with tanks/bombers/fighter-jets/machine-guns/other-weap ons-of-war.

      I wish they could do that. My state could handel everything better than the feds (my state has botched a few things).

      --
      I don't preview or spellcheck.
    4. Re:States should refuse the federal income tax. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Ever hear of the American Civil War? Imagine it only being one state with small arms vs. 49 states with tanks/bombers/fighter-jets/machine-guns/other-weap ons-of-war.

      Imagine being one state with NUKES that can wipe out the other 49 states 100 times over. Sure they can wipe you at 5000 times over, but after a point it doesn't matter.

      Also, I think they guy meant "state constitution" not federal

  27. Awesome by Phoenix666 · · Score: 1

    I'm quite proud of my home state for rebelling on this. Washington D.C. is lost to the American people as an instrument for sensible government. The state houses are the only avenue left to us if simply by virtue of being within a day's drive, and of our legislators as being mostly people with day jobs who aren't trapped in a beltway bubble.

    I once turned the tide for a crucial state reform bill by grabbing four friends and handing out flyers for 3 hours in front of supermarkets in certain legislators' districts. Inside of two days their offices received calls from ~150 constituents demanding to know why they weren't going to require members of the state legislature to show up for work. They usually get 5 calls on any issue, so they were taken aback and promptly decided to support the bill.

    You can't do that with Senators and members of the House of Representatives. They don't give a crap what you and I think, unless we can threaten/promise 1000's of $$$/votes.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  28. So Far by Derosian · · Score: 1

    So far my state, Texas, has been rather silent on the subject of RealID. Link

    But I do hope they do stand against it, not just for privacy or any of the other, but for the concept that the states would stand up for a cause. Against the federal government.

  29. what's the problem again? by ozgood · · Score: 1

    As all of the other pro national ID posts i'm sure this will be flagged as flamebait, but none the less I feel I should say something. What's the problem with having a national ID system? From the programming/database aspect alone all of us (especially on this site) should recognise the need for a better system. All of my information is currently stored in about 15 different state/federal databases already. What's wrong with putting them in one database and giving me a card to access all of my information? Are you worried about the federal government having control of that information? do you think they dont already? of course they can... I actually like the idea of having a social security like ID card that puts all of my state/federal information in one place so our government can keep up with the pace of information these days. But i'm sure that's just flamebait.

    1. Re:what's the problem again? by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      What's the problem with having a national ID system?

      We have one, its called a passport what the fed cant do is force ID on somebody its unconstitutional.

      From the programming/database aspect alone all of us (especially on this site) should recognise the need for a better system.

      We should also recognize the difficulty of providing security and privacy once all the data is in one place.

      All of my information is currently stored in about 15 different state/federal databases already. What's wrong with putting them in one database and giving me a card to access all of my information?

      Depends on whats being done with that information doesn't it?

      Are you worried about the federal government having control of that information? do you think they dont already? of course they can...

      Of course they can but not some mid level peon in a DC office or some DBA with access to a given database. Privacy is a right!

      I actually like the idea of having a social security like ID card that puts all of my state/federal information in one place so our government can keep up with the pace of information these days. But i'm sure that's just flamebait.

      Its not flamebait is asinine! SS cards and fraud are rampant what makes you think Real ID would be any more accurate or secure?

      --
    2. Re:what's the problem again? by ozgood · · Score: 1
      What's the problem with having a national ID system?
      We have one, its called a passport what the fed cant do is force ID on somebody its unconstitutional.


      What like having a social security number that can ID us? What's the difference?

      From the programming/database aspect alone all of us (especially on this site) should recognise the need for a better system.
      We should also recognize the difficulty of providing security and privacy once all the data is in one place.

      Which is true with any system right? So how does that argument differ from any database solution?

      All of my information is currently stored in about 15 different state/federal databases already. What's wrong with putting them in one database and giving me a card to access all of my information?
      Depends on whats being done with that information doesn't it?


      Again which is always an issue when you put information in a database.

      Are you worried about the federal government having control of that information? do you think they dont already? of course they can...
      Of course they can but not some mid level peon in a DC office or some DBA with access to a given database. Privacy is a right!


      This is obviously a problem already... you are right that security needs to be in place to limit the access of information. In fact alot of your counter arguments relate to this issue. You've already agreed that the information is already stored in a database, so i'm interested in hearing your solution to the CURRENT privacy problems. Surely you dont think the system is fine the way it is?

      I actually like the idea of having a social security like ID card that puts all of my state/federal information in one place so our government can keep up with the pace of information these days. But i'm sure that's just flamebait.
      Its not flamebait is asinine! SS cards and fraud are rampant what makes you think Real ID would be any more accurate or secure?


      So you agree that the current system is broke? How would you fix it without a national database?

    3. Re:what's the problem again? by N3WBI3 · · Score: 1
      FWIW: The fed cant force you to have a SSN they con only requre that if you work you have one for taxation purposes and nobody save the government has the right to demand your ssn.

      So you agree that the current system is broke? How would you fix it without a national database?

      The current system is broke because its central! And having one database will not stop fraud it will only make it worse.

      --
    4. Re:what's the problem again? by Plugh · · Score: 1
      What's the problem with having a national ID system?

      May your chains rest upon you lightly.

    5. Re:what's the problem again? by ozgood · · Score: 1

      Ahh Samuel Adams I believe? Supporting a system that combines data that is already posted and available doesnt make me unamerican. We are in the information age... some sort of national ID brings our government up to par, that's the point i was trying to make.

      your use of this quote reminds me of a time when people who dissagreed were called communists, and much before that, witches.

      -Brandon

    6. Re:what's the problem again? by fyngyrz · · Score: 1
      May your chains rest upon you lightly.

      Chains? What do you mean, chains? They told him they were strings of candy!

      --
      I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
    7. Re:what's the problem again? by compro01 · · Score: 1

      We are in the information age... some sort of national ID brings our government up to par, that's the point i was trying to make.

      up to par with what, might i ask?

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    8. Re:what's the problem again? by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      What's the problem with having a national ID system?

      Papers please!

      From the programming/database aspect alone all of us (especially on this site) should recognise the need for a better system.

      Yea, one database to go down, get corrupted, or broken into.

      All of my information is currently stored in about 15 different state/federal databases already.

      And if soemone wants to break in and steal the info they need to break into 15 different databases instead of one.

      What's wrong with putting them in one database and giving me a card to access all of my information?

      Answered above.

      Are you worried about the federal government having control of that information? do you think they dont already?

      They have to go through 15 different databases to get it all. And yes I am afraid of government having all that control, I fear government, which has pertetrated the worst human right violations in the world in history. Government isn't supposed to be our masters, it's supported to be our servant. All that "By the People, for the People" stuff.

      But i'm sure that's just flamebait.

      I hope you're not but if not I totally disagree with you. As it is now government has too much power, I don't want to give it more.

      Falcon
  30. so if the feds enforce it, statenlos menschen by swschrad · · Score: 1

    yes, without a country. if they have no ID, they can't do business with the feds.

    at which point those states can withhold taxes and national cooperation and "go private," which message the bushers can probably understand. they wouldn't catch on if those states "seceded from the Union." but going private, they'd probably get awards.

    if anybody from the US was allowed across the borders to present the awards.

    it's all totally ridiculous. going to the brink of national bankruptcy to force states out. we once had a war to prevent that kind of idiocy.

    --
    if this is supposed to be a new economy, how come they still want my old fashioned money?
  31. And everybody does it to the people by Proofof.+Chaos · · Score: 1

    How many laws are there that require you to spend money out of your own pocket? You're required to have car insurance, if you have a car, in every state I know of (strangely enough, most states require you to have uninsured motorist coverage as well). You're usually required to have your home inspected before you sell it, in many states you're required to purchase a helmet if you want to ride a motorcycle. And don't get me started about homeowners associations and municipal zoning laws. They require you to have this many trees in your yard, and that many square feet of grass, etc...

    Not that I think all of these laws are a bad idea, or unnecessary, but many of them are just stupid, and the only reason the gov't ever passed them is because they won't be footing the bill (actually, they usually create a new source of income in the form of fines for noncompliance).

    1. Re:And everybody does it to the people by Plugh · · Score: 1
      Quoth Proofof. Chaos:
      You're required to have car insurance, if you have a car, in every state I know of

      Car insurance, like seat belts, are really good ideas but are not mandated by law in New Hampshire.

  32. Re:What it boils down to (wrong) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not quite.

    States rather have the Fed do the taxing and then point up the finger of blame. If you look at the budgets for the last few presidents you'll see that the fed returns about as much as it takes from each state already (except for Alaska which gets a bit more). It doesn't matter were you get taxed. In fact, I'd rather get taxed locally for this kind of stuff, that way I know I'm only paying for my State or town as appropriate.

  33. Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by guinzuz · · Score: 1

    If funding is really the main issue, why don't we just buy a few less Stealth Bombers which cost roughly $2B a piece.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-2_Spirit A secure ID would help keep us much safer than a few extra bombers. Bombers didn't help us much on 9/11 but it is likely that a secure ID would have made it much more difficult for the terrorists and may have prevented the attacks altogether.

    "The 9/11 Commission recommended national identification standards for driver's licenses as a way to prevent future terrorism in its report to Congress." http://www.secure-license.org/cms/index.php/plain/ information/benefits_of_a_secure_license/

    1. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A secure ID would help keep us much safer.

      So would a camera grafted to everyone's head. Lets start that program next, then we'll all be "much safer".

    2. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by digitig · · Score: 1

      Bombers didn't help us much on 9/11 but it is likely that a secure ID would have made it much more difficult for the terrorists and may have prevented the attacks altogether. How. exactly? I understood that all the terrorists were in the USA legally and were correctly identified. Maybe your government keeps telling you that ID cards would have helped -- ours here in the UK certainly does. Maybe your government tells you how it would have helped. Ours here in the UK certainly doesn't.
      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    3. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Bombers didn't help us much on 9/11 but it is likely that a secure ID would have made it much more difficult for the terrorists and may have prevented the attacks altogether.



      The "terrorists" were here on perfectly legal visas, you fucking moron.

    4. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The problem is that States issue driver's licenses. It is their responsibility. Now we have the Federal Government saying they have to do it a certain way that costs more. Who should pay? Obviously, the Federal Government likes the idea that this is a State responsibility, therefore they pay.

      The States have pretty much had it with "unfunded mandates" from the Federal Government and this is just one way they can indicate their displeasure at being mandated to do stuff without any money to support the activity.

      Where does this go? Probably a stalemate for some time to come.

    5. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      That's actually not true. Several of the terrorists were not in the US legally (expired visas etc.) and some used fraudulently obtained documentation to obtain drivers licenses.

    6. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      Legal and EXPIRED. At least this "fucking moron" can read...http://www.9-11commission.gov/staff_stateme nts/911_TerrTrav_Ch2.pdf

    7. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      A secure ID would help keep us much safer than a few extra bombers.

      Prove it.

      it is likely that a secure ID would have made it much more difficult for the terrorists and may have prevented the attacks altogether.

      Prove the real id requirements will be more secure. Then prove that's all it will be used for.

      Thomas Jefferson didn't trust government and neither do I. It's government that has acted out the worst atrocities throughout history.

      Falcon
    8. Re:Buy a few less Stealth Bombers by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      The 9/11 Commission endorsed the REAL ID requirements, noting that "For terrorists, travel documents are as important as weapons ... All but one of the 9/11 hijackers acquired some form of identification document, some by fraud. Acquisition of these forms of identification would have assisted them in boarding commercial flights, renting cars, and other necessary activities."
      http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172765386179 .shtm/

      Recommendation: The U.S. border security system should be integrated into a larger network of screening points that includes our transportation system and access to vital facilities, such as nuclear reactors. The President should direct the Department of Homeland Security to lead the effort to design a comprehensive screening system, addressing common problems and setting common standards with systemwide goals in mind. Extending those standards among other governments could dramatically strengthen America and the world's collective ability to intercept individuals who pose catastrophic threats.

      Recommendation from the bipartisan 9/11 Commission Report.http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Rep ort_Ch12.htm/

      Here are a few ways how changes made as a result of Real ID will improve security:
      • Standard levels of identity-proofing prior to issuing and ID (States are all over the place with this right now)
      • Verify identity documents with the issuing entity. If someone brings you a passport, verify with DOS that they actually issued one to the person. Same with SSOLV, SAVE, EVVE, etc.
      • Requiring that a person is in the country legally prior to issuing an ID or set the expiration date on the ID to the last day the person is permitted in the US (had this been done prior to 9/11, several of the terrorists whose visas had expired would not have been able to obtain valid IDs which they used make preparations and board planes)
      • Ensure "one person, one license" by checking with other states prior to issuing an ID (this is a major problem not just for combating terrorism but for identity theft as there have been numerous instances where a person has obtained multiple licenses under multiple names for the purpose of fraudulently obtaining credit)
      • Photo first- Capture an applicant's photo at the begining of the process. If the person later presents fraudulent documents and skips out, there is a photo record of the individual.
      • Standardize the information appearing on the IDs (things like first and last name, DOB, DL#, address, etc. are standard)

        Want further proof? Have you read the DHS Draft Regulations for Real ID (link above)? I'm doubtful...If not, read it before demanding proof of something you haven't even spent the effort to look into.
  34. Americans support Real ID by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://www.upi.com/Zogby/UPI_Polls/2007/04/22/anal ysis_us_public_supports_real_id_law/ A new poll shows that 70 percent of Americans support the introduction of national security standards for driver's licenses under the Real ID Act.

  35. It's already begun by Aqua_boy17 · · Score: 1
    Blockquothing TFA:

    an amendment to the immigration bill now being debated in the U.S. Senate would ratchet up the consequences for states that fail to comply with Real ID. The Senate's proposed immigration law would require job applicants to verify their citizenship to employers using a driver's license that meets Real ID standards or with a passport.
    That's just for starters. It's obvious some legislators are already intent on badgering the states into submission. When that doesn't work, they can threaten cut off funds for anything they choose. It doesn't have to be transportation. What about health care, education, public works? You get the picture.

    Oh, and another reason this is a bad idea? Congress created it as an unfunded mandate. They're requiring the states to do it, but not providing any of the funding that would make it possible. Our local governments are already strained and citizens on the verge of staging property tax revolts. Where's this extra money going to come from?
    Even if I wasn't against this because it violates my rights, I'd fight it because it's fiscally irresponsible. Any conscientious lawmaker will do the same.
    --
    What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it's all about?
  36. Subtlety, a New Hampshire virtue by Simplulo · · Score: 1

    "The public policy established by Congress in the Real ID Act of 2005, Public Law 109-13, is contrary and repugnant to Articles 1 through 10 of the New Hampshire constitution as well as Amendments 4 though 10 of the Constitution for the United States of America."

    Dang, so how do they *really* feel about it?

  37. People who can't drive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If a driver's license is used as an ID, what do people who can't/won't drive use?

    1. Re:People who can't drive by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      A State issued ID(sans driving priv.). All states currently issue them as well and will continue to regardless of REAL ID.

  38. I guess I don't understand... by SailorRipley · · Score: 1

    (I'm sorry, I moved to the United States recently, and missed the whole REAL ID Act legislation got passed in 2005)

    I for one am definitely against anything "Big Brother". However, as far as I have been able to read up on this (a lot of articles have tons of fluff or otherwise useless information), I don't see the Big Brother angle or why people are so against a sort of national ID...

    This is what I (think I) know:

    1) all states should put the same information on the ID/license (in fact, there are only minimal guidelines, states could put more, but even if it would be a strict list (-> all of these and nothing but)).
    2) all states should have the same (document) requirements to issue an ID/license.
    3) states should share their motor vehicle database with the other states.

    [Btw, The countries part of the European Union have a "unified" passport, in fact, apart from specification of country of origin (in several ways, some to help prevent counterfeits, most of which were demanded by the US after 9/11 (not meant as a complaint, just giving some "historical" information :-))) and nobody in Europe is complaining those passports are used to "track everyone".]

    I guess my question is: what do people have against a national ID?
    Provided it is just that...meaning the 50 different state ID/license designs are replaced with one, uniform ID/license (for example with a map of the US on the background and the issuing state highlighted, as well as noted in writing on the ID/license), the same information is displayed in the same way, optionally additional information each state wishes to add is on the back, etc...

    I don't see how just uniforming the information on and look of the ID/license would help or even facilitate "tracking" everyone...seems to be me it would be just as down right easy now, since my RI driver's license identifies me just as uniquely now as would a National driver's license (or my green card for that matter)

    My main reason for asking is: as far as I can tell, there are no negative, only positive side-effects to a national ID/license (that assertion is based on what I know about it). Since so many are adamant against it, I feel I must be missing something, since I am at least as anti-Big Brother as the next guy :-)

    --
    Chance favors the prepared mind...especially when you Question Authority
    1. Re:I guess I don't understand... by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      You are right on. The discussion of identities in the US is a very emotionally charged issue(i.e. not rational). When the average American hears "National ID" they instantly think of how they were utilized by Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to carry out atrocities rather than all of the positives and practical aspects you outlined.

    2. Re:I guess I don't understand... by surprise_audit · · Score: 1

      I guess my question is: what do people have against a national ID?
      Well, for one thing, there's the underhanded way in which it was rammed through Congress. As I understand it, the RealID Act, in several incarnations (three, I think), was tossed out of Congress. The *only* reason it got passed at all was that it was attached as a rider to totally unconnected legislation. Which, in this particular case, was the appropriations bill for money for the troops in Iraq and for the Tsunami victims. Since no Senator or Congressman would *ever* want to have his/her name paraded as having voted against money for the troops, the bill passed, complete with the RealID portion.

      Another thing people bitch about is that the Federal Government isn't allocating funds to implement the RealID, so the various states would have to find the money somewhere else. Kind of ironic that an unfunded mandate was passed on the back of an appropriations bill...

    3. Re:I guess I don't understand... by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      You are right on. The discussion of identities in the US is a very emotionally charged issue(i.e. not rational). When the average American hears "National ID" they instantly think of how they were utilized by Nazi Germany or Stalinist Russia to carry out atrocities rather than all of the positives and practical aspects you outlined.

      That's right, because they can just as easily be used for one as for the other. In both NAZI Germany and Stalinist Russia it was supposedly used to begin with for "safety" and security. It was only after people got used to them that they were used for bad reasons.

      Falcon
  39. Mod parent up to infinity! by elrous0 · · Score: 1
    No kidding. It's not like these states are standing up for our civil liberties. They're just too cheap to pay for it. These same states would be perfectly fine with the federal government abolishing habeas corpus and setting up concentration camps tomorrow, just as long as Uncle Sucker footed the bill and not them.

    Like everything else in this sad republic, the only thing that REALLY motivates anyone is money.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  40. Secession is a good thing. by macraig · · Score: 1

    Just ask the former Confederate Union states.

  41. New Jersey by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sadly, yes, not only is our Governor too stupid to wear his seatbelt, but he hasn't done much to stop the unfunded mandates, nor lower property taxes significantly.

    And what of the Eminient domain cases there? Like the one that took a bunch of people's houses away from them and gave a drug company the property.

    Falcon
  42. auto insurance by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    most states require you to have uninsured motorist coverage as well

    I've never seen or heard states require uninsured motorists coverage for auto insurance. The only tyme I've seen it required is when a loan is taken out to buy the vehicle, the loan companies require uninsured coverage.

    Falcon
  43. Free State Project by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    While I support the Free State Project I'd find it hard to live in New Hampshire for that long as I love being on the coast. Now if it were in Vermont, or NH and Vermont were switched around, I could.

    "Government is not the solution to our problem; Government *is* the problem" -R. Reagan |

    Yet Reagan expanded federal government especially federal law enforcement.

    Falcon
    1. Re:Free State Project by Plugh · · Score: 1
      I assume you were educated in a government-run school. *sigh*

      Anyway, use your favorite map tool to check Portsmouth, NH

    2. Re:Free State Project by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      I assume you were educated in a government-run school. *sigh*

      Anyway, use your favorite map tool to check Portsmouth, NH

      Ok I switched NH and Vermont around, then again due to a Traumatic Brain Injury, TBI, my memory isn't as good as it used to be. However looking at another map, I see NH only has a small coastline near Boston. I much prefer Florida's coastline which offers a lot of places to scuba dive, which I love to do.

      *Sigh*

      Falcon
  44. Free State Project by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I assume, however, that NH requires and issues drivers licenses? Has restaurant health codes? Anti-monopoly practices? Liquor and pornography laws? A whole slew of laws, rules and regulations, just like every other "nanny" state?

    The aim of the Free State Project was to find a state where liberty loving people could move to who would then turn the state around on it's head and eventually get rid of all these laws, rules, and regulations. NH comes as close to this already as most any state, and the project organizers wanted to get thousands to move there who would then tip over politics there.

    Falcon
  45. internal passport by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Really...All the states need to do is... Require people to get a US passport. Pass the burden over to the Federal Government.

    Yea, the states need an internal passport like the old Soviet Union. NOT!!! Having a passport is a good idea but it should be voluntary not required.

    Falcon
  46. RealID in Texas by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Better not think that Gov. Rick Perry wouldn't call a special session to enact RealID and change any other statutes necessary to adopt it. Most politicians here were quite decidedly gung-ho on the prospect of enacting RealID despite that the constituant citizenry is against it.... because the overwhelming vast majority of the politico-powerbase amongst the Texas state legislature is in the hip pockets of big corporations... not citizens... and the big corps want RealID.

  47. mandates and standards by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    So you're saying that nobody should have to implement security standards that the government issues?

    Which government? Does it have the Constitutional authority to create those standards or mandates?

    What would happen if the airlines or other vulnerable operations refused to follow security standards, or just came up with their own?

    The market will decide a winner. If an airline doesn't have a good enough security policy they will be subject to lawsuits and/or will have little if any passengers. Those airlines with a tough security policy will get those passengers while passengers who don't want to fill out application forms and have their background investigated will fly an airline that doesn't do these.

    Falcon
    1. Re:mandates and standards by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      The market will decide a winner.


      God save us from libertarians who only look at long-term effects. Yes, ultimately the market will determine the winner, in the meantime the discount airline with no security and maintenance will crash how many planes into innocent people's homes?

      I guess the dead people will never fly that airline, so the market wins again!
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    2. Re:mandates and standards by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      God save us from libertarians who only look at long-term effects.

      Yes, I care more about the long term more than the short term unlike too many in business. Only this and next quarter matter, whereas I care more about the seventh generation. If I cared about the next quarter more I'd be dead.

      in the meantime the discount airline with no security and maintenance

      I said nothing about maintenance, especially of aircraft. Actually I wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid, so I care a lot about aircraft maintenance. Flying is in my family. My dad was a mechanic on planes, he retired from the US Airforce where he worked on B52s, and an uncle built his own plane and has his pilot's license. Like him I'd like to build my own plane and fly it.

      Falcon
    3. Re:mandates and standards by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      Yes, I care more about the long term more than the short term unlike too many in business


      What does that have to do with anything? I'm not talking about profitability in the short term, I'm talking about people dying in the short term.

      Actually I wanted to be a pilot since I was a kid, so I care a lot about aircraft maintenance. Flying is in my family. My dad was a mechanic on planes, he retired from the US Airforce where he worked on B52s, and an uncle built his own plane and has his pilot's license. Like him I'd like to build my own plane and fly it.


      That's fantastic, but what does that have to do with the short-term economic incentives to shortchange on security and maintenance? If a guy can make a hundred million in one quarter and then go bankrupt before the lawsuits hit, sure the market has "worked" in the sense that he's no longer in business, but he's still made a ton of money and the victims are still dead.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    4. Re:mandates and standards by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Yes, I care more about the long term more than the short term unlike too many in business

      What does that have to do with anything? I'm not talking about profitability in the short term, I'm talking about people dying in the short term.

      You were the one who said, and I quote:
      " God save us from libertarians who only look at long-term effects". You brought up the long term and I responded to it.

      That's fantastic, but what does that have to do with the short-term economic incentives to shortchange on security and maintenance?

      Perhaps you didn't understand what I said, even though I specifically stated it, so I will state it again: I care a lot about aircraft maintenance. I also said lawsuits can help to disincentivize any short term shortsightedness, then gave an example.

      Falcon
    5. Re:mandates and standards by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      You brought up the long term and I responded to it.


      Yes, I said that looking only at long-term financial effects in absence of everything else is completely ridiculous. You're the one who went off on short-term financial effects while ignoring the fact that I was clearly talking about short-term non-financial effects. I don't care if someone is focused on this quarter or not, that's up to them and their company investors. It makes no difference to anyone else. But if they're achieving financial goals by shortchanging security or maintenance, then that's a problem for people OUTSIDE the company -- it has nothing to do with finances, it's a public safety issue. Looking only at the long-term financial aspects of such a decision ignores the fact that in the short term, you can do a hell of a lot of damage to people who have no means of market feedback until its entirely too late.

      Perhaps you didn't understand what I said, even though I specifically stated it, so I will state it again: I care a lot about aircraft maintenance. I also said lawsuits can help to disincentivize any short term shortsightedness, then gave an example.


      I understood perfectly what you said, it just had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. That you personally care about maintenance doesn't mean a damn thing. We're not talking about you, we're talking about letting the "market" take care of businesses who don't invest in things like security or maintenance.

      If YOU love maintenance, that's great, I'll be happy to fly YOUR airline, but that doesn't do me any good if someone else's airline crashes into my house and kills my family because they wanted to save $20 on parts or bomb sniffers in order to offer lower ticket prices. I wasn't their customer, so the market doesn't do me any damn good, plus I'm dead anyways. Being able to sue them is a fantastic long-term remedy for my grandkids who might live long enough to see the court case settled, but I'm still dead and the CEO of the airline is still filthy rich, it's just the airline itself that will go bankrupt.

      Yes, the market works in the long term. But the long term is much longer than acceptable for many problems to be sorted out.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
  48. foreign travelers travelling to the USA by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    You'd probably get a significant increase in visitors from outside the US as well. I can't speak for terrorists, but I know that I have declined to visit the US on both professional and personal grounds since 9/11 -- and not because I think terrorists are going to fly my plane into a building.

    Last night CNN had a report on this. Because of the tightening of airport and airplane security foreigners are coming to the USA less than before 911. Travel industry officials said this reduction in foreigners coming to the USA has hurt them financially.

    Falcon
  49. RFID chips by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Perhaps you've forgotten the fact that all US Passports will eventually (within the next few years) contain an RFID chip, so you'll already be tracked wherever you go with that.

    Until the passport is dropped in the road then runover.

    Falcon
  50. legal drinking age by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    I don't ever remember an 18 year old drinking age.

    I do. When I was 18 I was legally able to drink alcohol for one month before a new law came into effect that raised the age limit to 19. Latter it went to 21. And the thing is is I spent tyme in Germany and there parents could order wine or beer for the children in a restaurant legally. That's a big problem in the US, because parents are no longer legally able to serve teens an occasional alcoholic drink they don't learn to drink responsibly then all of a sudden when they turn 21 they go on a drinking bing.

    Falcon
  51. id required by falconwolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you're found wandering about as an adult without adequate ID in my state (Florida), that alone is enough to send you to jail until such time as you can produce some documentation confirming who you are

    This must be new, less than 10 years old. I grew up in FL and while living there there was no requirement to carry id, you only needed a dl while driving.

    I do understand the state's right to require it

    I don't, it's only needed if you want a police state. And requiring an id is an assault on anonymity, which some Supreme Court rulings have said is essential to the First Admendment's right to free speech and free assembly. If the state, political entity, can require a person to show id at any tyme this limits their willingness to engage in political actions or protests.

    Falcon
  52. Why should we need an ID to fly? by GenKreton · · Score: 1

    I honestly want to know why we should need an ID to fly anyways? Who cares who you are? You already have been subjected to invasive searches and scanings and x-rays - even with machines that can expose you naked - all in the name of safety, so why concern ourselves with identification? It will be forged easily by those that want to move around desperately enough, regardless. Identity only really matters in a society where reputation matters and in that society I would be allowed to have my pocket knife on a plane.

  53. We need this for.. security.. err illegals.. er.. by k1e0x · · Score: 1

    At first they told us we needed a national ID card for Security. When it came to light that people holding ID cards can STILL commit crimes. Terrorists foregn and national can get legal ID's *then* set off there bombs.

    So they changed the story now we need this for illegals.. and ONLY illegals will get this.. what a crock.. they are illegal.. they are breaking the current laws.. why on earth would they follow this one law? Laws are not magic.. they dont make criminals disapear.

    I'm so angry at my government I'm frothing at the mouth.

    --
    Bringing liberty to the masses. - http://freetalklive.com/
  54. meetings of legislatures by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    The Texas Legislature just recessed until January 2009; by the state constitution, the legislature can only meet for 140 days every two years

    It used to be like this in many states. Most people elected actually worked for a living and they couldn't afford to be away from work too long. I would fully support a similar admendment to the USA Constitution. Shorter though maybe, say like from January through March. Then require a test to make sure every politician reads each bill before they can vote on it.

    Falcon
  55. passport by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    [Btw, The countries part of the European Union have a "unified" passport, in fact, apart from specification of country of origin (in several ways, some to help prevent counterfeits, most of which were demanded by the US after 9/11 (not meant as a complaint, just giving some "historical" information :-))) and nobody in Europe is complaining those passports are used to "track everyone".]

    Are those passports required for anything other than international travel? I bet not, however there are a number of things the Real ID Act will require this id for. Such as to open a bank account. Then once people get used to it there'll come "Papers please" while just walking down the sidewalk.

    I guess my question is: what do people have against a national ID?

    Two things, "Papers please" and the Constitution of the USA does not give the government any power to mandate a national id.

    I am at least as anti-Big Brother as the next guy :-)

    I wouldn't say you're that much anti-Big Brother if you can't see the ramifications of a national id. But then again coming from Europe I'm not supprized the way things are there.

    Chance favors the prepared mind...especially when you Question Authority

    Why not question why government wants to mandate ids, especially when they haven't proven ids will make anyone safer and more secure. And like Benjamin Franklin said, paraphrasing, "Anyone willing to give up a little freedom for security will neither get nor deserve either."

    Falcon
  56. I used to not be too much against this... by glitch23 · · Score: 0

    but after hearing that Bush is working to have a North American Union come into existence in the near future, I know that the REAL ID is only going to help that come to fruition. The US doesn't need to merge with Canada and/or Mexico when it has survived as a sovereign nation for over 200 years just fine. Our economy is better than both of those countries combined so the economical reason people use to defend the formation of the NAU is ludicrous. The REAL ID and the delay of a border fence are 2 components to having the NAU become real. The REAL ID must be stopped.

    --
    this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
  57. Ron Paul opposes this! by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    If you oppose this, vote for Dr. Ron Paul for President. He is absolutely opposed to ANYTHING of this nature and voted against it.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
  58. State govs are not represented in Washington! by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    Yep - the government of China has representation in Washington, DC but the government of Texas does not.

    This is why our Senators should be delegates from each state legislature.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
  59. license plates by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    License plates across the states are the same, and DON'T carry a different format

    Yes different states have different license plates. I have license plates from two different states and though they are basically the same size and shape the design is different.

    Having a unified set of ID's, just like the military, is not a bad idea.

    BS! Papers Please!

    People are fighting this shit because of politics, not because it's a good or bad idea.

    I am against any national id because I believe in the Constitution of the USA and because I believe in liberty and small government, ie I am a Classical Liberal

    . Falcon
  60. history by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    go grab a history book (or two) and read up on how America got to be where it is today.

    While I generally agree with this post of your's the history book part is tricky. Depending on what books are picked they may say different things.

    Falcon
    1. Re:history by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hence why I said "(or two)". Never rely on a single source, which sadly too many people do for their news.

  61. bad laws by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    If a law is created by the government, or even a proposition by a different political party... it doesn't matter if it's a good idea. It will be picked apart due to the political side who created it, just to make them look bad.

    One way to evaluate whether a law is good or bad is to imagine your political foes having the same power. If you don't want them having it it probable bad. Some of the laws we have after 911 Clinton asked for as well, they were bad then and they still are.

    Falcon
  62. Banned from Federal Court by RandySC · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't it be kind of cool to be banned from ever entering a Federal Court?

    --
    Organization: alphabetical, sometimes numerical or messy
  63. Ugh. Great. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    So if a almost blind "free" idiot decides to drive a car and kills me, or a dirty restauranteur makes me get thypoid or some other east sickness, there is nothing to defend the innocent, unsuspecting public?

    The word "anarchy" is ringing on my head.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Ugh. Great. by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      So if a almost blind "free" idiot decides to drive a car and kills me, or a dirty restauranteur makes me get thypoid or some other east sickness, there is nothing to defend the innocent, unsuspecting public?

      Oh, like laws protect you from getting hit in an accident now? HAHA, years ago as a student in college I was riding my bike after class when I was hit by one of those "apartment movers" vans. While in a coma the docs told my family it wold be a miracle if I lived. NOT!!! Anyway, it came out the driver who hit me had a record of causing other accidents. He moved from one state to the state I lived in because the state he used to live in issued an arrest warrant out for him.

      Just because government makes a law doesn't mean it won't happen. All that may happen is the guilty party may be forced to pay the price latter. And lawsuits can do this as well. I bet the company the person who hit me worked for when he hit me will be more careful in who they hire now.

      Falcon
  64. In the UK and Europe.... by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    .... we already need an official photo id for traveling in planes.

    I use my passport, but alas, I travel a lot internationally, thus I am disciplined regarding this.

    Other people use local (as in country) forms of identification (drivers licenses mostly), which are not centrally linked in any way (although the scumbag Tony Blair and his cronies are working hard to centralize this, starting with us, Johnny Foreigner types, as the obvious soft target. Bastards).

    You don't need to wait 12 weeks to travel locally. You just need to make sure you always have a passport that is valid. A bit of discipline should be enough to ensure this.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  65. Those planes are potenital weapons. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    And they do not know state borders (unless you think an Al Quaeda operative will have a GPS on board to ensure they don go astray. Oh wait, their target may be on another state).

    Given the situation above, the issue of identifying passengers becomes a Federal one in the US and an international one pretty much elsewhere. If I was in charge of the Fed Gov in the US (ha,ha,ha) I am sure as hell that I would want my own mechanism to ensure people are who they say they are, I have no problem with that.

    The problem IMHO is the tool they want to use. They should use passports, they want the Big Brother approach that encroaches in everybody's privacy.

    As for "spur of the moment" flights, pulease, give me a frigging brake. I do it regularly, I just make sure I always have a valid passport. If it would take me 12 weeks to renew it then I would start the renewal procedure 12 weeks before expiry date. To do this once every 10 years (or one every 5, as we Mexicans have to do) is a minuscule price to pay frankly.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Those planes are potenital weapons. by JustNilt · · Score: 1

      "Given the situation above, the issue of identifying passengers becomes a Federal one"

      This will be my last post on this topic. It's obvious tome that many simply don't "get it".

      While I see your point, such as it is, the US Constitution doesn't work that way. Powers not specifically enumerated for the federal government are explicitly granted to the people nd/or the states. Congress does a lot using interstate commerce as a justification but this is stretched thin to the breaking point on the RealID issue.

      The fact that people in the US don't really understand the Constitution is what allows Bush and his ilk to get away with pretty much whatever they like. The Constitution doesn't simply set forth the rights of citizens. It recognizes certain rights as inalienable but much more importantly it sets forth limits on the powers of government.

      Without such limits, governments tend to take more and more freedoms until one day the citizens have little left at all. This isn't always done in the interest of being "evil"; often the freedoms are abrogated for what seem to be good reasons. If this is allowed to continue, however, eventually few will be left, if any.

      Does this sound a bit odd? Perhaps. I don't believe, however, that giving up our rights is ever a good idea. I don't believe the government should be allowed to exceed its authority in any area. I'm in a minority on this, I know.

      --
      You know the thing about UDP jokes? I don't care if you get it or not.
  66. border control by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    The U.S. border security system should be integrated into a larger network of screening points

    The government can't stop "illegal aliens" from crossing the US Mexican border. Yet crossing the US Canadian border is much easier. There are a lot of roads crossing the border between the Great Lakes and Puget Sound in Washington, British Colombia. And many of them don't have any check points. Living in Minneasota I can drive right into Canada and back without seeing any border agent. And there's hundreds if not thousands of miles I can hike across the border.

    The President should direct the Department of Homeland Security

    BS, the Department of Homeland Security, which sounds like the Department of the Fatherland, or Motherland, Security should be abolished.

    Extending those standards among other governments could dramatically strengthen America and the world's collective ability to intercept individuals who pose catastrophic threats.

    As well as track political dissidents or those the authorities don't like.

    Want further proof?

    Proof? That's no proof, all it is is recommnedations. Meanwhile, by all data being in one database it means anybody who cracks the db will have access to all the ifo instead of having to break into a bunch. It also allows the authorities to track political dissidents easier.

    Falcon
    1. Re:border control by guinzuz · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't bother to read it. I'm done.

    2. Re:border control by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      I guess you didn't bother to read it. I'm done.

      Not only did I read it but I also included the part of the post I was replying to before my reply. Bye.

      Falcon
  67. short term vr long term by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    I don't care if someone is focused on this quarter or not, that's up to them and their company investors. It makes no difference to anyone else.

    It should matter to everyone, afterall it can potentially affect everyone. Don't think so? It's in a company's short term interest to not clean up toxic waste. But it's in others' interest for it to be cleaned up. What if the company isn't going to survive because of short term interests? It's in the interest for the employees to try to correct what's bad so they can keep their jobs. However if they do lose their jobs then there will be more competition between those with jobs and those without, those without may depress wages.

    Simply it's in shareholders, some of whom are also workers, interest as well as most everyone else's interest to think about the long term. Only those who don't care about the future don't need to be concerned.

    But if they're achieving financial goals by shortchanging security or maintenance, then that's a problem for people OUTSIDE the company -- it has nothing to do with finances,

    I'm guessing you don't understand what I previously stated, it is possible for a comany to have a lawsuit filed again them which could cost more than taking corrective actions, ie only thinking about the short term. That being so I see no reason to keep up with conserving with you, you seem to keep disregarding what I have said or twistingh it around.

    Falcon