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Closed Source On Linux and BSD?
An anonymous reader writes "I want to start (very small) software/hardware business. The code in question will be closed source. I won't modify or use any GPL code or any 3rd-party sources. It will be my own handwritten C/C++ code from start to finish. I am planning to sell embedded-like boxes with an OS (Linux or BSD) and this code. I am more familiar with Linux but I am scared a little bit of Linux licensing, and also of Linux fanboy-ism: I personally got a 'go to hell with your @#$ closed code' slur on Slashdot. I am not a GPL guru and not a software freedom fighter. I just want to do my job and make a living." Read on for this reader's five particular questions.
My questions:
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)?
2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries? (My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.)
3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)?
4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party?
5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems?
My questions:
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)?
2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries? (My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.)
3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)?
4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party?
5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems?
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)? Yes 2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries? (My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.) Only if it's LGPL 3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)? It doesn't really help, but go ahead 4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party? Not if you do it right 5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems? You can do whatever you want with BSD code
(Pre-Slashdot conversation ...)
"Hi, this is Bob from Smith, Smith and Wendell returning your call. I'm afraid we're not interested in advising you on matters of software licensing and distribution, but have you considered asking a few hundred thousand opinionated geeks in a public forum? Because that's what we advise most of our potential clients to try first. Here, let me get the URL for you ..."
OK but if you want to sell software you need to understand licensing.
Yes, glibc is licensed under the LGPL which is compatible with non-free software.
I suppose so, but unless you are some kind of algorithm genius (and I don't think you are) it is not really going to be worth anybody's while to do reverse engineer it.
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If you want to develop a closed source product, and the product is good, it will sell. There are many successful closed source projects out there in Linux/BSD land. You have to be extra careful about bugs though. The OSS community makes more noise when your code is buggy, and they aren't allowed to come in and fix it for you. ;)
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1. Yes. GPL3 is not retroactive to existing source. Even if you used GPL3 stuff, I don't think it has any impact on your own code if it is distinct.
2. Yes if they are LGPL. Which includes the standard C++ libraries. Some components such as the kernel also have certain binary waivers.
3. Yes but why bother if you're not releasing the source. And if you are releasing the source, then there are benefits to not obfuscating it (e.g. helpful customers fixing your bugs).
4. Not unless a court says. Obviously if you violate the GPL you are taking a major risk of somebody finding out and forcing your code out into the open.
5. Yes, but neither will you have a problem with Linux. However you would have to supply the sources to the GPL / LGPL components of your system upon demand. Most people stick the source up on a web site or link to where they found it, but the latter may not absolve you of not providing it if somebody comes asking for it. Also BSD systems can contain GPL software too (e.g. if you use gcc as your compiler for the C++)
I think if you're in doubt you should probably go look at some existing Linux dist designed for embedded systems. They're bound to have a FAQ that covers most of this.
1. If you want to start a bussiness and have legal questions, go ask a lawyer, don't ask on slashdot.
2. Even if you decide to post on slashdot, at least try to read the licenses in question before plus the many articles on the subject that are readily available online.
3. If you want to have good and honest answers, avoid the word fanboy in your original post. Starting off by insulting the very people whose help you ask for isn't a very good idea.
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)?
The license for the Linux kernel is not going to change (It requires the consent of many hundreds of contributors, many of which will decline. Some are dead, others are unreachable.)
2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries? (My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.)
You can statically link, but why avoid dynamic linking? glibc and libstd++ are LGPL, which permits binary only distribution.
3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)?
Isn't compiling it enough? You can strip the compiled code or debugging symbols if you really want, but you only hurt your own ability to debug your users problems.
4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party?
Not if you avoid linking with code which has a license that require it.
5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems?
Linux and the various BSD flavours both allow this sort of use. See the various wifi-routers and tivo style devices. Hell even my digital picture frames run linux.
LL
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)?
Yes.
2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries? (My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.)
AFAIK, no. Static linking is incorporating code directly. If you link dynamically then any library that is LGPL (not GPL) is fine, but for static linking I believe you need to have an open license on your own code as well.
3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)?
It's your code - do anything you want. If you're not open-sourcing it, just don't ship the source.
4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party?
No. Again, when people have been found to have violated the terms of the license, they've had to stop selling and distributing the stuff. I can imagine cases where someone may have to retroactively pay for the illegal use of code. But I can't see a situation where'd you actually had to open your code.
5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems?
Well, 1, 3 and 4 isn't a problem under Linux either. 2 - for BSD-licensed libraries you could link statically. But a lot of libs (user-interface stuff and higher-level libs) in BSD systems are LGPL as well - everything in a BSD-based system isn't BSD-licensed.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
aside from the fact that all your questions can be answered by doing a little research that you *should* be doing yourself, I see one problem.
Your code will be closed source? Fine, I don't have much of a care about such, dig out, I plan to do a game, and that will be closed source at first. But your planned software will run on linux, and that gives rise to the problem.
Just say your project proves popular. Well in that case the chances are very high that you will find yourself in competition with an open source equivalent, either existing or created specifically because your software revealed a new need.
You need to look closely at the closed source rationale. It can work, but not everywhere. You could be beaten to a pulp by a small group of co-operating people out to do better then you. There have been some successes with closed software on embedded systems, but those have been heavily invested in, with lots of developers.
To be perfectly honest, I have to question whether it's wise to enter a market where a) you don't have familiarity with the platform (there are long established answers to most of these questions) and b) don't know anybody you could ask. Having said that...
1. Can I do it with Linux today (GPL2) and tomorrow (GPL3)?
Today, yes, provided you comply with the terms of the license. Tomorrow, it depends on exactly what you are doing.
2. Can I statically link the code with Linux libraries?
That contradicts your earlier claim that you "won't modify or use any GPL code or any 3rd-party sources". The term "Linux libraries" is meaningless. What libraries are we talking about? By statically linking a library, you make your application a derivative work and you are also distributing the library itself, which means you need to make sure that the library's license allows this and that you comply with its terms.
(My own experience shows that dynamic linking is too much to bear.)
Your own experience is probably wrong.
3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)?
So long as it's entirely your code, although I don't see the point. Of course, if the reason you are obfuscating the code is because it's a derivative work and you are required to provide the source, then no, you probably can't.
4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party?
At worst, if you infringe on somebody's copyrights, then you could be offered this as an alternative to being sued.
See, this is the kind of question that makes me think you don't even have the remotest familiarity with Linux. You seriously think somebody can just shake you down for source? Huh? Or are you just spreading FUD?
5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems?
Ah, that answers my question. Fuck off. You aren't genuinely asking these questions, you're just a BSD troll spreading FUD.
BSD is licensed to allow for people to do what you want. GPLd software is not.
I'm not opposed to proprietary software. Quite the contrary. But I do find the notion of taking an open source project, slapping on a bit of code, and trying to keep your part to yourself, to be extremely offensive. The people who contributed to GNU software did so with the expectation that their code is share and share alike. What you've described appears to run directly counter to that, completely disrespecting the wishes of the programmers involved. Unless I'm reading you wrong, you deserve a hearty "go to hell!".
BSD, on the other hand, is meant to allow for use exactly like you are proposing. Have at it. No hard feelings there as that's exactly in line with their programmers' wishes.
So you are interested in using other people's work, you are interested in getting other people's opinions, all for free, yet you contribute nothing to the community that gave you so much...
Some people would call that selfish.
Here is my advice: talk to a lawyer who is knowledgeable on licensing and IP matters.
A2b. GNU/Linux (the whole system) comes with many libraries, some of them BSD-licensed, some GPL-licensed, some GPL-with-linking-exception-licensed, some LGPL-licensed, etc... it's a common interpretation of the GPL that if you link to a GPL-(no-linking-exception) library (like GNU readline or Qt) you are making a derivative work and thus, you have to license your work under the GPL. 3. Can I obfuscate my code (e.g. encode it)? A3. You can do this in any case -- except (maybe, IIRC) if you are distributing your code under the GPL/LGPL. 4. Could I be forced to publish this code by some 3-d party? A4. Not really (parent poster is right on the mark) 5. Am I correct that programming in and selling BSD-based boxes won't raise any of the above problems? A5. Yes you are. BUT...
and I mean this respectfully: as you will be selling your box as an embedded utility, what do you have to lose by GPL'ing (or otherwise opening) your code? If you do things right, you will have:
I. a community of people that are willing to buy your box to start;
II. a community will want to tinker and make your product better, fast, and you get to incorporate the changes for the next versions of your product;
III. the respect of a lot of people.
Example: lots of people I know have Linksys (WRT54G[L]) wireless routers _because_ they know they can tinker with it, that there are lots of new, interesting uses to it with the alternate verstions of the software, etc. I, myself, when installing SoHo wi-fi networks _only_ recommend WRTs to my clients, as opposed to non-tinkerable D-LINKs that here in Brasil cost 30-40% less.
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
You _really_ don't want to statically link libraries. If you do, any security problems with the libraries become security problems with your code that can only be fixed by patching all your binaries and not just the library with the problem.
You seem to be looking at it from the wrong angle.
If you don't care about the GPL, don't use GPL'd software. Simple.
The only reason we are having this discussion is because GNU/Linux has become so succesfull BECAUSE no-one has been able to hijack it and close it.
Understand now?
It's not about zealotry, it's about denying greedy, selfish people the ability to build on the shoulders of others without giving anything back.
>Example: lots of people I know have Linksys (WRT54G[L]) wireless routers _because_ they know they can
/product/ was software, I, too, would be leary about giving away the code for free.
/I/ wouldn't invest in a new product where I couldn't make any money selling the actual product but only support for it. What if everyone wants your product but no one needs or wants support? You've just invented the perfect software - but it's worthless to you.
>tinker with it, that there are lots of new, interesting uses to it with the alternate verstions of the software, etc.
I'm not in the software industry, and I don't know much about GPL.
But I do know that if my sole
In your Linksys example, there is a hardware component that is not easy to replicate - there is a barrier to duplication. So in that case it is a great benefit to create and sell the hardware, but leave the software open so that the world can improve the functionality and attractiveness of the hardware you are selling.
But I don't understand how this works with a pure software product. If you give it away to the world, then someone else is just going to take the code and make a derivative product from it that does the same thing but is free. The way I see it, the only thing authors of free software can sell is support.
I guess I just still don't understand the free software movement as a business.
A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
"The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it."
It doesn't seem that this guy needs to release his code in any event, however.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
But I do know that if my sole
Very true I hate to admit. If there is not hardware or a service to sell then selling the program and giving away the source just will not work together. I can not tell you how I hate to admit that.
Those that do not know, pay for it.
If this person is making a pure software product, firstly it's pretty clear that he's a one man band, and secondly, since he complains about dynamic linking (which is utterly trivial to do in Linux, Windows or BSD) being too hard, it's not that hard to come to the conclusion that at most he's "ordinarily skilled in the art" - more likely, he's a candidate for an appearance on The Daily WTF.
A one man closed source project that involves no particular genius is also susceptible to being duplicated since it won't be all that much effort for someone else to write the same thing from scratch.
So he either is filling a niche where no one else is likely to go (in which case, it doesn't really matter if he uses a closed or open source approach), or it's actually not pure software - perhaps a pre-packaged OS plus hardware plus support for an appliance type system. In which case, given the resources he has to hand, it still wouldn't really make any difference whether he goes closed or open source.
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I'm sorry, but if you review the huge arguments going on about how you can release closed source on Linux, well it's no wonder a lot of vendors chose to go Windows only. I'm not saying closed source is right or wrong, I'm just saying that if the option to go close source is so tricky on Linux, well, that's a huge fucking problem.
I read 'too much to bear' as taking too much system resources rather then 'too hard'.
In an embedded system dynamic linking can eat up scarce resources. Static linking is faster to load, faster to run, and takes up less ram.
If you're really writing it all yourself, none of these issues matter. If you're really writing standard C/C++ with only POSIX library functions, you're not linking against the kernel (so the kernel license doesn't matter), and you're not linking against any userspace libraries except for libgcc/libg++ (permissive license) and glibc (generally permitted). Dynamic linking is only actually a pain when either you're writing the library, or the library provider's versioning is lacking, or you've got a million libraries, or you're shipping the software not aggregated with the library you want to use.
Of course, you'll want to use other people's code for some things. You'll almost certainly want to start your program using some shell scripts, but those don't have a non-source form and are generally not worth obfuscating. If you want to use more libraries, you'll have to look at their licenses (many important Linux libraries are BSD-licensed anyway, though). If you're writing kernel code, you probably want to open-source this part and do as little of the interesting stuff there as possible (for technical reasons: kernel bugs cause a lot more damage than userspace bugs; for maintence reasons: kernel developers will maintain cleanly-written open-source code for you across trivial API changes; and for legal reasons: it's a pain to avoid making your module a derivative work of the kernel).
The ideal thing is to build a little computer running Linux with nothing in it that you wrote, and then use it to run a program that's entirely yours, and sell the whole thing to people.
I don't see how he is a troll. The fact people ask questions that could be answered by doing the proper research (how would you qualify what is proper in many cases, specifically the legalities of licensing?) does not mean they are trolling, they are simply asking in a forum they are comfortable with. What's your problem with that?
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Oracle is running it's products under Linux and it is all closed source.
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In fact, development of new versions are done on Linux and then ported to other platforms. Here is a good starting page if you are interested in seeing how and what s done by Oracle on Linux, both closed and open source: http://www.oracle.com/technology/tech/linux/index
If you mod me down, I *will* introduce you to my sister!
So, yes, if you distribute a linux kernel that you downloaded from "xyzzyplugh.com" you can direct people to "xyzzyplugh.com" for sources. But if "xyzzyplugh.com" goes out of business, you still need to be able to provide the sources.
The same is true if you use a BSD kernel, but include the GPL application "spork" embedded in the device. You need to be able to provide the sources to "spork" regardless of where you obtained the "spork" binary and regardless of whether the "spork" sources are available elsewhere.
No. If you statically link the Linux libraries, or any GPL licensed library, then you are obligated to license your application under the GPL. If you statically link a LGPL licensed binary, your application can remain closed source. However you must make source for the LGPL licensed library available, again for at least 3 years longer than you distribute the application. Source or object code? In either case the answer is "of course" for all licenses. But if you are under GPL or LGPL, you need to make the means to decrypt it available to anyone who wants it. No, but you could be required to cease distribution and potentially be penalized in either civil or criminal court for any copyright violations you commit. This could apply regardless of the licence of the OS kernel you use. Be sure to understand the license of any software or libraries that you distribute.Support SETI@home