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Users Rage Against China's 'Great Firewall'
slugo writes with a CNN article about young professionals increasingly aware of the small part of the internet they're allowed to play in. Intelligent and internet-savvy, these users are frustrated by China's overactive concern for internet health. "Yang Zhou is no cyberdissident, but recent curbs on his Web surfing habits by China's censors have him fomenting discontent ... Yang's fury erupted a few days ago when he found he could not browse his friend's holiday snaps on Flickr.com, due to access restrictions by censors after images of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre were posted on the photo-sharing Web site. "Once you've complained all you can to your friends, what more can you do? What else is there but anger and disillusionment?" Yang said after venting his anger with friends at a hot-pot restaurant in Beijing. The blocking of Flickr is the latest casualty of China's ongoing battle to control its sprawling Internet. Wikipedia and a raft of other popular Web sites, discussion boards and blogs have already fallen victim to the country's censors."
Mr. Jintao, tear down this (fire)wall!
That's the last we'll ever hear of Yang Zhou. Pity, considering he had a good point.
Once you've complained all you can to your friends, what more can you do?
Post very angry comments on all news sites! Arghhh!! I'm pissed off about censorship!
As anonymous, of course...
To the sound of thunderous whining from a bunch of Youtube/Flickr/blogosphere addicted yuppies.
Off to Digg articles about Zhao Ziyang.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
Aren't people in China going to ask the question "Why is Flickr not working for me?" and then discover it is due to "controversial imagery of the Tiananmen Square massacre". Hence interest and discussion of this topic the Chinese government is trying to censor is exponentially increased.
If they really wanted to censor what went on at Tiananmen Square, they shouldn't draw attention to it by blocking half the internet. Instead they'd just have to spread disinformation within their own country, while still allowing people to read the "outrageous remarks of terrorist conspiracy theorists on the other side of the world". Little attention would be drawn to the issue: it'd get forgotten about. Blocking half the internet in the name of erasing history is DEFINITELY counterproductive to the cause.
The Chinese people will be free, and probably sooner than any of us expect. The Tienanmen square uprising was crushed by troops who were brought in from far away, and had no idea what was happening in Beijing. Eventually, the power of the party to control communications will be overwhelmed, and they'll be made accountable for their crimes against China.
Today, most Chinese have no idea at all that Mao not only killed more Chinese than Tojo, he was the greatest mass-murderer in history.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
For those that like to call the US a "totalitarian" state, that crushes dissent and is destroying long-cherished liberties, you don't have too look too far to find real, live totalitarian governments. Like China, or Cuba, or Iran, or North Korea, etc.
So please stop crying wolf about the US, and I say this as someone that has voted Libertarian in the last three elections and is not thrilled with all the actions of this government.
Fuck you, I won't browse where you tell me!
Oh god that was lame.
I have no sympathy for them.
I have a rather more optimistic view of the Chinese. Most of them know that their government is rotten, and all they need to topple it is to realize that most of their fellow citizens feel the same way. That's why the party is so deathly afraid of improving communications. It's not traffic between China and the west that will free them, though. It's internal communications that will bring the commies down.
Personally, I'm thrilled to look forward to what China can do when they become free. They will make amazing contributions to the world.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I know this is a bit OT, but bear with me... As China grows wealthier, you're seeing a gradual push towards greater freedom and democracy- free municipal elections, a rapid increase in the number of protests, and backlash against censorship as described in TFA. This is in a nation where the US has done very little to promote democracy or human rights. Compare that with nations where we have tried to promote democracy. Nigeria, for example, is hopelessly corrupt, embroiled in Christian/Muslim violence, and no better off than they were 50 years ago. Then we have the free elections we pushed for in Palestine- the nation is in a state of anarchy. Oh, and there's the "democracy" we installed in Iraq. These nations do not have a history of democracy and never established the social institutions necessary to sustain it. My point is that we ought to not get involved in trying to promote a certain form of government in countries before they are ready to accept it. If we engage in non-intervention in their affairs and peaceful free trade, as is our position with China, we'll see them gravitate towards democracy at their own pace.
Please revise your comment unless you fully intended to troll.
The Chinese Government is Communist. All "Chinamen" are not.
Furthermore, Communism does not have to equate directly to censorship.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Great Firewall rages against you.
the Chinese language version is blocked - but the English language version is accessible
...I obey the laws of physics....
They surf porn. No joke. I worked at of those dot-com anonymizer companies that marketed in China. When we looked at our logs, we saw that most outbound traffic went to porn sites. That's what people do with their "voice" and unrestricted access to information... they use their new power to look at naked chics. Knowledge be damned.
Rage Against China's Great Firewall is probably my favorite band. They got some sweet riffs!!!
It is both irresponsible and impossible to maintain such a firewall forever.
There are plenty of people who bypass the firewall already. China is marching into the 21st century with an eye to the future. They are building schools and focusing on emerging technologies. They are growing not only in population, but in knowledge and economy.
I don't think it is unreasonable to assume a strong possibility exists where they are the lone true superpower in the future.
However, you can not get to that point with discontent citizens, or backwards technological practices.
If you want people to love their country, then you can't pretend the past never happened.
The moment a strong Chinese political leader steps forward, admits to all the past mistakes made by former Chinese leaders, and motivates their population under the banner of a new, free China, watch the fuck out.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
nah
... in ways
they don't report disease outbreaks... SARS, pig blue ear, bird flu
that ensure disaster.
the world ends with a cough and cyanosis
tyranny sucks wind
If you read up on it, the main part of China called "Mainland China" is screwing all the people over with their commi rules and censorship. I wouldn't want to see a war break out with a population of that size. But a government overthrown is long and overdue.
Sure, *most* people will surf porn, just as *most* people will watch American Idol, not PBS. Lowest common denominator and whatnot. That does not deprecate the importance of PBS, nor should it deprecate anonymity online.
Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am master of my fate and captain of my soul.
It's not like it's that hard to tell your international friends how to set one up. There are already complete solutions that can be downloaded and installed with only a minimum of configuration (such as setting a password).
I'll probably be modded down for this...
Now before someone suggests that I'm being arrogant, it seems that they don't bother to block a lot of sites which most Chinese people can't read. As I understand it the english version of Wikipedia is not currently blocked, though the Chinese version is. Add to that the fact that a majority of websites are in English, and you're going to be able to access a lot more information if you can read English.
The people that were angry at China, in China, at the official view of Hu Yaobang, went to protest against it, and by extension the way China was run, starting in May of 1989. This turned into the Tienanmen Square Massacre of June 4, 1989; it's safe to say that over 1,000 people were killed by fellow Chinamen during this event. Zhao Ziyang, for opposing the hardcore measures that his party would eventually take, was placed under house arrest until the day he died, and then allowed to nearly disappear from Chinese history with barely a mention.
:(", they let it ferment, and then they go about their lives, which are usually problematic enough as it is. They do this because they are kept stupid by their government, with almost no way to get real information, or at least no knowledge of how to obtain it, and also a lack of time and resources to obtain said information should it be known how to go about it. This is the reason China's ostensibly trying to build their own fucking internet, for God's sake!
Eighteen years later, families of those that were directly affected by that dark day are given increased surveillance by China's version of the Secret Police; some are even put under a house arrest that's unlawful even by their own standards. Anyone that speaks out even remotely against the government is either put under surveillance, house arrest, or just arrested, sometimes never to be seen again. It's gotten to the point where younger people in China don't even KNOW what happened, or even that June 4 1989 was a significant day in Chinese history; remember, a person working for a newspaper was fired for letting through an obscurely worded advertisement mentioning the Mothers of 64 (64 = June 4), and she'd never even HEARD of the Tienanmen Square massacre; those that try to find it on search engines are either blocked/reported, or given China's "official" (read: lies) opinion on the days' events (essentially, that it was a public uprising that needed to be quelled). The common man in China lives in poverty, intentionally kept down by a government that uses them to further their own personal ambitions, with one or two token executions per year of "corrupt" officials. Essentially, China has become the modern day equivalent of Orwell's astute observations.
If China can effectively whitewash one of the most brutal subjugations of all time, and essentially wipe it from history, what the hell do you think it's thinking of what the article states? They're not worried one iota over what public perception is of how they handle Flickr, or any other website that doesn't play by China's rules. The people don't know any better; they just know that "oh, this can't be reached now
Eventually, peoples' opinions will dull on this matter, because time fades all memories. This will not affect China in one way whatsoever. Everyone from around the world can decry their censorship all they want, but they're always going to be outsiders; China will never let them "pollute" their pool, so to speak. And when the Great Firewall of China filters out anything unpleasing, what will the people know of what the world feels about their country, and their leadership? Eventually, mention of what REALLY happened at Tienanmen will be regarded by the majority of the Chinese populace the way we in America regard anyone that feels the JFK killing was a massive CIA conspiracy; it will be regarded as a massive conspiracy theory to do nothing but get attention and revel against the Man, and the person saying it will be effectively ostracized by his peers, and be put under watch by the government (something that's unlike us here in the US).
Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
I'm not a huge expert on the subject, but I do believe that the former Yugoslavia under Marshall Tito was a Communist nation that didn't have problems with toltarianism or censorship. Their biggest problem was hatred across various ethnic lines within the nation.
http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
Didn't the US Military block, flickr, youtube and pretty much the same services that are blocked in China now? Everybody is blocking something from us, Google removes sites from results, Yahoo and Google help China block and censor things. Take down threats and notices for someone giving Dell consumer tips, someone criticizing some lawyers or telling you how to make your DVD play in your non Microsoft computer. It's already a Brave New Bladerunner world everywhere but go ahead and act shocked that it's happening in China now. Might make you feel better.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
Hey, the chinese people really _are_ catching up with the west!
They whose government reduces their essential liberties for temporary security, receive neither liberty nor security.
First Post??
More like uhh 6th post. This was like 8 minutes after the first post.
What is wrong with you?
Young professionals have the means to leave China, even if they don't have the means to change the government. I'd suggest they get out while the getting's good.
The real victims are the oppressed poor and working classes -- they aren't particularly concerned with trivialities like Flickr access, having to submit to what is essentially slave labor due to extreme poverty.
The problem with China is the government and its political philosophy, not the predictable restrictions on information access that totalitarian governments always enact.
Water's wet, the skies blue, and the Chinamen are rotten Commi's.
And you're a nerd teen living in his mom's basement, can't talk to girls, and run Linux on his MacBook!
At least that's what it says here in my "Absurd Stereotypes" guide book.
As we're looking at the problem as a whole, we must realize that the great firewall is just a branch at the end of a giant tree. Trying to do something about this is like chopping of that branch when it is the whole tree that is ill. And eventually, another branch will grow out.
I don't think the Chinese commie leaders will remove the firewall. It stands for what they believe in, and if they were to shut it down, it would be a sign of weakness that they do not want. So for anything to happen and last, they must attack the fundamental flaws of their society, not just one of its flawed products.
Full Tilt
You can take away my liberties, freedom of speech and my ability to influence my own future, but when you take away my flickr I get REALLY pissed!
Ahhh, to be young and have my head totally stuck up my own ass.
SIG: TAKE OFF EVERY 'CAPTAIN'!!
That's not really that surprising. I mean, think about how you browse -- for me porn is a minority of my browsing (large though it may be) but when I think of what portion of my browsing I would prefer people not know about it's probably 95% porn. Most of the non-porn stuff I do is stuff I couldn't care less if people knew about.
And by next year they'll may close the internet entirely into "teh intranets"
sad because right now I can't tell the number of jobs apart from in the best of times... but its wartime... near world-wartime... ITS GONNA BE CLOSE
I wonder how long before my web-based service gets blocked:
http://websurfing.cn/If all big sites would just post the famous picture of that tiananmen massacre on their website (just a microscopic link to the full picture), pretty soon China will have the option of either blocking internet altogether or loosening restrictions.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
That's the thing about freedom. People do what they want to do, not necessarily what someone else wants them to do. If they didn't, they wouldn't be free.
-- The act of censorship is always worse than whatever is being censored. Always.
I think therein lies the problem. Many judges are turning a blind eye; and those judges that tend to pursue it do seem to have a problem upholding those rights. Here is a fine example of what I am trying to describe: the recent(!) Supreme Court decision to allow arbitrary seizure of property by private entities, a right once entitled to governments alone for the sole purpose of improvements for the public good. Clearly, someone was NOT thinking when they allowed this one through.
Agreed about the "failure to uphold".... But given that this kind of activity goes back decades and decades, and the American voter base seems included to do...well...nothing about it, it is for all effective purposes, worthless, as the public refuses to enforce it. Why does the public turn such a blind eye to something easily fixed? Why are they content to continue on? I highly doubt it's some form of partisan politics, as this has occurred on the watch of BOTH parties - maybe it has something to do with the stench of corruption and money?
Yes, the 5th Amendment allows for non-self-incrimination, but I think you're entirely missing a little gem that is relevant to your discussion...Hm, time to haul out a copy of the US Constitution....lessee here...(adjusts glasses for reading) ah yes...
Amendment 4: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Emphasis is mine.
So this whole "warrantless" concept is without...warrant? I guess you could really stretch the part about "unreasonable searches and seizures" in an attempt to justify it but the next part is pretty clear to me, "no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause...." Really, pretty plain English as far as I can tell. So, this warrantless search and seizure bit - just how far back are we talking about? I would like to hear your information on this, as it seems there is a bit of a conflict as to "what source is correct". I'm not so much trying to argue as I am trying to point out another example of "bending the rules" again.
The header seems to suggest that this is all users, or the majority, which of course isn't the case. Most Chinese are not all that interested in the many websites that are mostly in foreign languages they don't understand.
Still, he has a point there - the Chinese censorship is becoming too restrictive and hinders too many things, and there is a risk that it becomes a serious hindrance to their progress, economically and otherwise, so I think they will have to reform their policy somewhat. But then that is exactly what they are doing - from what you hear, although it is mostly interpreted negatively in the West, they are trying to find the right balance. And as is the case in all governments, there are groups with different viewpoints; some want much a more restrictive censorship, others want to open up; my bet is on the ones that want more openness. It makes much more sense in the long run, and the Chinese aren't idiots.
I've seen the usual comments already here along the lines of 'China is a totalitarian, communist hell-hole', and 'Yang Zhou is going to disappear', which tells more about the people that make the comments than about the reality of life in China. In China, as in most other civilized countries, people don't 'disappear' for criticising a bad policy; thye can, however, get arrested for being a threat to society, as interpreted by those in power - this is no different from America or Europe, the difference lying more in what is considered a threat to society. And again, one may not agree with what China calls a threat to society, but they are a sovereign nation, and it is their right to make up their own minds about this - we in the West have one or two absurdly draconian security related laws too, don't we? In time it will change.
Flickr itself is censoring images for users in Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Germany.
I'm located in Germany and I can't turn off the Safe Search. Images marked as moderate or restricted
are not visible. If there is something like a Safe Search and moderation of images, fine. But please
leave me (as an adult) the option to view all images.
I guess I won't renew my pro account in August...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I don't want to come across as a paranoid tinfoil hat wearer, but I think that this serves as a warning against the reliance on technology.
Everyone says that the world is a better place, because thanks to technology, we can hear about human rights abuses all of the world. We can connect with other people with similar views. We can voice our opinions to thousands of others.
This is true, to a point. But we need to remember that technology can be easily controlled, as China is clearly demonstrating.
I worry that we become too reliant on technology, and forget the traditional person-to-person networks. And I think that it is the person-to-person networks that will really make the difference. Could another Tienanmen Square be organized by text message? Probably not, the government would have blocked the text messages before they reached too many people. Same goes for email. I'm sure Tienanmen Square was organized by people talking to people, something which is a lot harder to control.
At least he gets points for having the Macbook.
In every forum you post in add a photo of the Tienamen Square massacre to your sig...in every website you own include the same picture in an unobtrusive place. Suddenly the Chinese government is forced to block the entirety of 'teh internets'; citizens revolt; end of story.
Of course posted as an Anonymous Coward. I could really do without disappearing.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
If this /. page and the article can be viewed from China without circumventing the Great Firewall.
We have factories in china, and we often use video conferancing to discuss certain things. Now the speed of our line is in muli megabit leased. Our factory in china has 10Mbit, however the connection between china and the rest of the world is appauling. It makes it almost impossible to have a conferance with them because the few pipes that are in use are so congested, and I guess, monitored, that real time VC goes out the window. Every other site in the world we connect with is fine. Just inside China.
http://www.writeitfor.us - Writing IT for the IT generation.
I must add that this is the most commonn excuse for internet filtering. Chinese official say their main goal is to "protect" citizens from pornography.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Complain to Cisco. They supplied the technorogy
I wonder if they can they access slashdot in china.
My ism, it's full of beliefs.
>Mr. Jintao, tear down this (fire)wall!
better yet turn it round and block all the port 25 outbound traffic spewing from your infected machines, bot-neted and owned and trying to overload my mail servers with spam
thanks
The man mentioned in the FA is outraged because he cannot see his friends pictures, the reason being that the Chinese government has censored flickr in order to prevent people from seeing images of the massacre in tienanmen square. So instead of rioting because of this stomp on civil liberties he is pissed off because his internet surfing habits have been disrupted...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Minor correction. Most people watch American Idol, while some *other* people watch PBS. However, most people will surf porn, but this is *not* a distinct group than people visiting 'cultured' websites. Few people watch both American Idol and PBS; lots of people watch both porn and 'cultured' websites (albeit not at the same time, usually).
In other words, seeing lots of people visiting porn websites doesn't mean much about the overall level of the websites they visit. Whereas knowing that most (US) people watch American Idol says something quite sad.
And this is how democracies are born. Not revolution, sanctions, "regime change" or "nation building", but a wealthy disillusioned middle class looking for more say in how they're governed.
Deleted
Technically true, but show me an example of a communist government that doesn't have serious issues with censorship. The idea of Communist government doesn't require censorship, but the reality is that sustaining a communist government generally does.
Show me a government that doesn't (at least heavily try to) apply censorship on anything offensive.
Of course, democratic governments have much higher tolerance to making jokes with the president or critique. The reason being: they know that doesn't cause such adverse effects, and it's so full of critics about everything, that the separate instance get drowned in a sea of noise.
They still will censor and mess with anything that could relate to "national security". Not to mention the off-the-bat false detection of terrorism and pedophilia related content where there isn't any.
For starters, I have no clue what the Great Firewall blocks of content and type of data, but could the Chinese browsers not use a proxy server? Preferably an encrypted one?
But then again, the Censors would might detect the new traffic patterns and block it.
Belgium criminalised the 'Vlaams Blok' political party. Being a member or officer became punishable. This was something that had 30-40%(?) of votes in certain areas.
Although the censorship of China may be shocking, it is really not unprecedented.
Yeah, as a member serving in Iraq right now, I can say that they do, but it's only on their networks. In other words, while you're in the performance of your duty, you're using the taxpayers' connection. Why should you then be allowed to slack off by visiting websites that have no bearing on your duties? You shouldn't-- it's a misuse of resources entrusted to you by the People.
As a concession, all of the FOBs (Forward Operating Bases) I've been to have some sort of "call center" or Morale, Welfare, and Recreation (MWR) tent, where you can get on an unrestricted connection in your off time. They still ask that you refrain from visitng porn and such, but there's really not much to stop you. Some call centers even allow you to just plug in a laptop to a CAT-5 connection, and this is all for free.
Lastly, I'd ask that you might refrain from comparing the US military to Authoritarian China. That's off the mark, and pretty offensive, in my opinion. (Although, as a servicemember, I'll happily defend your right to say whatever you want, no matter how offensive...)
-SSgt Sean Hicks, USAF (Posting as anonymous coward because I can't remember my bloody password!)
[quote]"Once you've complained all you can to your friends, what more can you do? What else is there but anger and disillusionment?"[/quote]If someone finds an answer to this question, please tell me. I'm at the same situation with patent and copyright laws. Protest at **AA headquarters and wait for the tanks to show up?
Deleted
The solution is simple for everyone in China, where they sensor the internet, and for everyone in the US, where they monitor the internet.
Install a VPN solution that tunnels your traffic through Europe or Panama. Most install an OpenVPN client on your machine and keep no logs of traffic in or out. I've used http://www.xerobank.com/ and http://www.metropipe.net/.
Problems with marketing to Asia is 1) the price is a bit high for most of them 2) actually being able to receive money from Chinese customers has always been a problem (you need to work with those pay-per-phone services which take 55% of your profit for themselves).
But services such as thosewould be a solution.
P.S. Anyone have a good payment solution for Chinese customers?
Running Linux on Pope's macbook? o_O
Does the old queer know you've got a shell? Is it a secret or do you share you k1dd13 p0rns?
I'm not condoning illegal activity. I'm just saying I don't think a country can put up a firewall successfully without only allowing access to very specific trusted resources.
How I think you could get around it....
My guess is they set up monitors that look for standard ways around the firewall. Write a custom proxy protocol that won't set off the government trackers. Doesn't have to be anything complicated. Just make it look benign, but I won't go into the details. Call up a friend in the U.S. who works at a company with more bandwidth you'll ever need. Use your friends computer as a proxy server. I've worked at places where my computer was left on all the time and no one questioned it. Since it's connected to a corporate internet connection it should be fast enough for anything. If both ends of a connection knows eachothers IP address typically you can punch a hole in a NAT(this is how most p2p networks work). Now you're set. The IT guy at the company won't notice anything unless you abuse your priviledge and start hogging bandwidth and the chinese government won't notice a single user connected to a corporate network using a unknown protocol.
I have my doubts about most corporate firewalls. Country firewalls...well thats just sounds rediculous.
Also, anyone know if you can get satellite internet in China? I doubt the chinese government would be able to block that.
Not my work but I blogged it ages ago.
I beg to differ. As Leszek Koakowski (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leszek_Ko%C5%82akow
- to each according to his needs - which is in conflict with natural scarcity of goods; as a result, without money, you have other ways to regulate distribution of goods (and you get "communist aristocracy")
- from each according to his abilities - in free market you work hard to earn more (or to make a living); in communism you get everything "according to your needs", so there is no reason to work hard. So you need control, but people that control you are neither awarded, so they don't care and they are easy to bribe, so you need another layer of control, preferably secret. And if your wage is not linked to your work, and if there is no unemployment, there have to be other ways to ensure your work. Terror.
And all this has to be done so, that everyone thinks that they live in the land of freedom and happiness. The only way to do it is to supress free speech.
And thus you have censorship.
Of course, it is a very crude argument, if you want the same thoughts more formalised try to find Koakowski's works in English. They are quite difficult to read, but they open eyes.
Cheers
Raf
I'm from former Yugoslavia and unlike any other Easter block countries, there was no censorship at that scale. I guess Yugoslavia was the only communist state where western TV programming run equally as domestic. We could go for vacation to any country without permission unlike other communist states where you had to ask for permission 5 years ahead and you had to have damn good reason for it. There were some restrictions though: foreign (non easter-bloc) cars were expensive, people had to be careful what they say about CP in public but that's pretty much it. I dare to say that there was more freedom in former Yugoslavia then in some democratic societies at the time or even now.
IdoL: It may be most popoular in its time slot, but that is far, far from a majority of Americans watching it. You're thinking of the Super Bowl. However sad it may be, the democritization and fractionation of 'fame' is likely a good thing. Myself, I like the tryout stage of those shows with all the goofs. Then it gets very boring and I have to fast foward through anything that isn't some judge tearing some wannabe a new a-hole.
"due to access restrictions by censors after images of the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre were posted on the photo-sharing Web site."
Are they angry at their own government's censoring policy, or are they angry at those damned insurgents that posted those pictures, forcing their beloved, benevolent government to take such action?
There's a study from the universities of Harvard, Toronto, and Cambridge that gives some insight into which topics the legions of censors put the most energy into blocking.
Biggest surprises:
Biggest lack of surprise: Sites related to the Tiananmen massacre and Falun Gong were thoroughly blocked.
This gives a sense of what the regime there is most afraid of people reading.
I suggest that Chinese readers find a proxy and read up on exactly these topics.
No, they won't be free any time soon, if ever. Revolution after revolution in China and nothing changes. From the dynasties to the nationalists to the Communists, the only thing that changes are the faces of the aristocracy. They had the Forbidden City, now they have Zhongnanhai. They had the Imperial Court, now they have the Party.
From Sun Yat-sen to the original communist revolution, there are times when revolution will temporarily enact positive changes on China. Within no fewer than ten years, however, everything goes back to the way it was.
Plain and simple, China has an Emperor complex. Whoever rules China will rule it the same way that China has always been ruled.
On a related side note, I just came back from China two days ago, where a hot-pot restaurant in Beijing gave me a vicious seven day case of the shits.
You can't go off and browse censored content unless you know what content is actually censored. If the censorship is effective enough, people won't even know what to look for, let alone where to look.
Besides, is it inherently less valuable to gain information on the human body and various sex acts, exploring one's own sexuality against the wishes of the state?
when i was in china in October 2006 i could access slashdot no problem. in fact, I was unable to find a site i could not access. Keep in mind i didnt specifically try any thing china considers "anti-china", just general browsing.
Not if those "young professionals" include gold farmers. Being as this is one of China's main contributions to the internet, I say "Mr. Jintao, leave up this (fire)wall!"
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
....is not the issue here, Dude!
"To lead the people, you must walk behind them"
I'm not quite sure where you're going with that, but your post leaves me with the impression that you feel that censorship of naked chics is OK (because nobody should be looking at that anyway), but censorship of knowledge is a problem (agree with you there). Assuming that's where you're going (apologies if it wasn't) - how do you justify any censorship? Censorship is always wrong, period, end of story, because the justification is ALWAYS subjective. That means that a few people are deciding what everybody can and can't look at/read/talk about/think about. That's tyranny of a few over the many - do you think that that's ok?
Oddly enough, there appear to be many, many pro-censorship (as long as it's the good kind of censorship) proponents, even here on Slashdot, even here in America (where we're actually taught in first-grade civics class that censorship as a concept is wrong). They seem to moralize censorship - it's ok, as long as the purpose is noble enough. The ends justify the means. I've seen many posts here along the lines of "and don't give me this 'slippery slope' BS because we've been censoring naked chics on TV for decades and the Gestapo still doesn't kick in your door when you criticize Bush!" which completely misses the point that censorship itself is an evil concept, just like slavery, genocide, torture, etc. We should strive to eradicate the concept - if you want to protect your children, see to it that they only vaguely understand what the word means; don't look to justify it every time somebody proposes it.
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
"Jose Padilla is an American citizen who was first detained as a material witness, then deemed -- by administrative fiat, not by any due process of legal action"
t ed_States)
In some cases, administrative "fiat" IS due process of legal action.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_order_(Uni
"Some orders do have the force of law when made in pursuance of certain Acts of Congress of the United States, when those acts give the President discretionary powers"
So stop pretending the two are irreconcilable. You sound like just another ignorant slashtard spewing propaganda.
At the very least, that is what they do when they need anonymous access. There are many people who don't want their porn viewing habits to become public knowledge.
Unfortunately, that is not my (very limited) experience. For example, an American-educated Chinese expatriate I knew who had been living in Virginia for several years still believed that Taiwan and Tibet both clearly belong to China, and that any talk otherwise was just insanity. Oppression can be pretty powerful if you don't know any different, and the ability and willingness to unlearn things that aren't true is not exactly mankind's greatest attribute.
With all this censorship, how the hell is China going to deal with thousands of Europeans and Americans visiting for the Olympics? The web isn't the only source of knowledge. The sheer flow of idea (and outside knowledge) could be crippling. Granted, I believe China has tried to set up a section for the Olympics, to cut it off from the rest of China, but I'm kind of hesitant to believe that'll work.
During grad school, I spent several weeks in various cities in China. At one point, in Beijing, a group of us planned to visit Tiananmen Square. In my hotel room I did a google search of Tiananmen Square, looking for directions to get there. While doing this I was surprised to see that that I could access information about the massacre. After finding the location of the square, it was walking distance - so the group of us walked. During the walk I told everyone about the massacre information I found, and no one believed me. We stopped at a street side Internet cafe and I repeated the search - no such information could be found. We found this quite interesting, a Beijing hotel filled with Western guests (many of them diplomats) would be uncensured, while the outside the hotel the Internet was censured.
"does not mean that we should sit down and shut up about the violations of civil liberties here."
No, and no one was presenting that particular argument, Mr. Strawman.
What it does mean though, is that the hyperbole and overstatement used to demonize the US is more of an idictment of the ignorance of those using said hyperbole and overstatement than it is the evils of the US.
OT I know, but can someone explain to me the vitriolic hatred of American Idol that seems so rampant here? It's a show where some of the best vocal singers in the country are discovered. What offends slashdotters so much about that? Personally, I happen to enjoy the show.
I suspect "the haters" just hate it cause it's popular. I happen to enjoy listening to good singers.
Rant over.
BTW, just to be somewhat on topic, censorship in the digital age is futile. China is learning that this is inevitable.
the state of affairs in American corporations? It is reprehensible that the Chinese government is limit access to the internet to its citizens, and this seems to cause an uproar in America as it should. But is this really much different than Microsoft telling you that you can't run your copy of Vista in a virtual machine? Or the RIAA telling you that you don't have the right to make a backup copy of the CD you just bought? Or Verizon telling you that you don't have the right to load your own BREW application on your cell phone (or not allowing you to get the pictures off your cellphone without paying a quarter each? Or the state of NC fining a guy who bought soybean oil (from Costco at a higher price than diesel!) $1000 for not paying "fuel tax?" You think you aren't being restricted into your own private sandbox....?
Just how much of this crap will we take before we actually do something about it?
"Actually, you are arrogant, ignorant, self-centric, and you talk through your behind."
h tml
No, actually he's right. It sucks for you, but it's true.
"There are lot more than just english-language web sites"
If by a "lot more" you mean "an insignificant amount as compared to" then yes.
http://www.dlib.org/dlib/april03/lavoie/04lavoie.
The info is a few years old, but seeing as the trend was toward MORE english sites not fewer, I'd say it's probably pretty close.
The rest of your post was just a juvenile rant about your insecurity, which we could really do without.
The fact that you think the US military is comparable to any society as a whole makes it clear yours is not an opinion worth paying attention to, if for no other reason than your inability to recognize an invalid comparison.
IDCLIP.
*Ba dum chhhhhh!!*
Thank you! I perform Wednesdays and Sundays. Say hi to Larry at the bar for me......
"The fact that you think the US military is comparable to any society as a whole makes it clear yours is not an opinion worth paying attention to, if for no other reason than your inability to recognize an invalid comparison."
I'm sorry, did you think posting a second opinion I don't care about would change this?
"My comparisons are valid and arguable."
No.
Far more injurious than filtering some crap photo site is the US insistence on denying its citizens the freedom to enjoy a Cuban cigar.
Hey, take it another step.
Show me an example of a truely communist government.
Ice Cream has no bones.
Ah, You mistake my reply for caring about what you posted. I don't want to leave you with that impression. One word answers undoubtedly using your voice of authority may impress small children or cowered underlings but again, you have no argument other than 'I said so' - very amusing. Not an argument or any sort of reasoning to refute me but still, amusing. But in case anyone might want to take your word for it or might be impressed by one word argument, here's the definition of society from Wikipedia. "A society is a grouping of individuals, which is characterized by common interests and may have distinctive culture and institutions. In a society, members can be from a different ethnic group. A "Society" may refer to a particular people, such as the Nuer, to a nation state, such as Switzerland, or to a broader cultural group, such as a Western society. Society can also refer to an organized group of people associated together for religious, benevolent, cultural, scientific, political, patriotic, or other purposes. The following three components are common to all definitions of society: * Social networks * Criteria for membership, and * Characteristic patterns of organization" Again, the US Military is a society that one may use to compare with other societies, many in fact. Different cultures and different social structures for the Marines, Air Force, Army, Navy and Coast Guard. A bit more wordy than your 'No' but you know, in case the kids are reading I'd rather make a good impression.
Enjoy your Karma, after all you earned it. Feel your Karma Joe, feel it burn.
Similar to the web going black to protest the Communications Decency Act in 1996, find the least offensive image (ie. nothing bloody or violent,) and encourage everyone to place it on their home/front page. Perhaps, the Goddess of Democracy?
But with two billion eyeballs under their control, China will probably just build make their own internet. With gambling, and booze, and hookers...
Don't forget ports 22, udp 1026 and udp 1027 (Windows Messenger service SPAM)
Chain INPUT (policy ACCEPT 5764K packets, 1421M bytes)
pkts bytes target prot opt in out source destination
8543 4419K kiddies udp -- * * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 udp dpt:1027
8834 4598K kiddies udp -- * * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 udp dpt:1026
Chain kiddies (22 references)
pkts bytes target prot opt in out source destination
21226 9270K REJECT all -- * * 0.0.0.0/0 0.0.0.0/0 reject-with icmp-port-unreachable
Thats over 33 days and my server is rather quiet, nothing much running on it.
I don't recall the TV program or the main topic (big help, eh?) other than it was probably on PBS, a reporter interviewed a group of Chinese students who were too young at the time to readily recall the Tiananmen Square protests. Shown the "tank-man" photo, they were genuinely clueless to its story or context. Neither the truth or any sort of government propaganda; that moment was the first time they ever saw the image.
Um, I'm an American and I've never seen a map where Tibet isn't within China's borders. What are you talking about? And the US doesn't even recognize Taiwan as a country, but that's more debatable than Tibet.
Not sure about most people, but my main issue with it is that its success has spawned a couple dozen other shows in the same vein. So most of the new shows coming out consist of a panel of judges making retarded comments about people doing mostly retarded things.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I'm a Fedora user, and there's an unofficial Fedora FAQ on http://fedorafaq.org./ I've done some volunteer Chinese translation for that and put it on http://rye.my-place.us/ which is provided by www.my-place.us freely.
And my site has been censored.
Interestingly enough, the host itself http://www.my-place.us/ is not, which means the Wall bans my site somewhat specifically.
Can you feel my feelings? my chinese translation is available globally exception my nation...
I've also put it on blogspot of Google, but blogspot is banned from time to time.
living here is just too embarrassing...
Evil Never Sleeps
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Most of them know that their government is rotten, and all they need to topple it is to realize that most of their fellow citizens feel the same way.
Not at all, what they need to know is that there is a viable alternative to their government. The chinese are very practical people, they are not going to topple their government if the alternative is anarchy. The only thing chinese people trust less than their government is other chinese people.
Yes in China...
... .edu sites /.
-Slashdot, Fark, The Register, Youtube, Shoutcast, Digg, Reuters, NPR, answers.com
No in China
-BBC, wikipedia, flickr, *.blogspot.com, wordpress, some
-And, at the moment... THIS ARTICLE ON
To be blunt, blow it out your shorts. Way over 50% of the world's spam originates in the US. Put verizon and roadrunner and pacbell up against the wall and stop the crap where it originates,*in the US* and we'll all be better off. First the US service providers profit from spam, then they bitch and moan that it all "comes from China." Well, that just ain't the truth and it's annoying as hell having to deal with your ignorant, braindead filters that block all mail from Chinese IP's - *including* my spam-and-relay-free Postfix ! Talentless retarded jerks :-(
And you replied:
Wouldn't it have been more honest to declare yourself as the "typical Asian nerd" of Chinese descent who calls Wuhan his hometown and flies the Chinese Communist Party's battle flag as his site's logo that you are instead of conveniently wrapping yourself in the US flag/passport? Just consider the post you were replying to. It was describing someone with strong ethnic blindfolds; apparently someone not totally unlike yourself.
Now, if you're still interested in some facts about Tibet instead of playing cheap retort games to put the Tibetans down as mere Han-Chinese property, consider the following:
Tibetans are not Chinese in any way.
Not in ethnicity.
Not in language, which is completely different and not just euphemistically a "dialect" like Cantonese etc.
Not even in the written script of the Tibetan language, which is closely related to Sanskrit or its other offspring Hindi. It's a phonetic script and nothing like the Chinese pictograms.
Not in culture, which again is totally different from their Chinese neighbours. Totally as in completely.
Not in religion; Tibetans created their unique form of Buddhism after Buddhism spread from the neighbouring India and fused with the indigenous Bön religion which had developed via Central Asian influences. Guess where the Tang got their Buddhism from?
Not even in history, as if that was somehow an excuse for genocide today, notwithstanding vague claims over the whole world by the often despotic feudal god-king overlords who ruled various parts of China!
When the Mongols invaded the Eurasian continent, from Eastern Europe to Northern India to most of today's China from late 1300s onwards and created an empire, they respected the Tibetans enough to adopt their religion and adopt Tibet as their spiritual home, not as vassals paying tax and tribute. When the Hans took over the eastern quarter of that Mongol empire, they kept the priest-patron relationship. (Some centuries earlier when the Tibetans were still a nation of warriors themselves they had invaded the capital of China and agreed upon an eternal peace between the two nations to stop the stupid warfaring for good!)
When the Manchus (Qing) took over the Empire, they too kept the spiritual link nominally alive, although generally the Qing were only relied upon as decent neighbours, decent enough to help in times of trouble because the Tibetans had long ago chosen to become a pacifist, monastic society. Instead of violence the Tibetans put their trust in geography, the Himalayas and vast deserts, Buddhist Mongolia and other neighbours, including the decency of their distant Manchu-ruled Qing neighbours.
So life went on. Tibet chose to remain isolated from the increasingly turbulent world, but they naturally had their own government as always, own currency, own flag, their own diplomatic relations with their neighbours, own postal system, a small army, their Tibetan history going back millenia. etc.
Eventually the Qing Manchus were struggling with both Western imperialism and
Should invading one's peaceful neighbours be opposed, or rewarded with trade deals?