First Royal Mummy Found Since Tut is Identified

brian0918 writes "In what is being described as the most important find in the Valley of the Kings since the discovery of King Tut, a single tooth has clinched the identification of an ancient mummy as that of Queen Hatshepsut, who ruled Egypt about 3,500 years ago. A molar inscribed with the queen's name, discovered in a wooden box in 1881 in a cache of royal mummies, was found to fit perfectly in the jaw of 'a fat woman in her 50s who had rotten teeth and died of bone cancer.' Reuters also reports on the DNA analysis: 'Preliminary results show similarities between its DNA and that of Ahmose Nefertari, the wife of the founder of the 18th dynasty and a probable ancestor of Hatsephsut's.'"

Comments

Oh baby...

[Anonymous Coward]

a fat woman in her 50s who had rotten teeth and died of bone cancer

Well don't stop there, I was just getting aroused...

Re:Oh baby...

[Forge]

I really should stop commenting on Moderation but how did this become off topic?

The guy is obviously turned on by fat, long dead Egyptians. Now if he was moderated troll or just "-1 sick, twisted, pervert" ...

What? No such moderation option? OK. I'll take it back.

Re:Oh baby...

[MidVicious]

Oh come on!

Rosie O'Donnell is not Egyptian nor is she a time slider!

It would, however, explain the fall of the Egyptian Empire.

"I cannot stand King Tut and his awful hairpiece! Did you know the Tut is bankrupt?!"

The Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone else find it ironic that these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids so that they would never be forgotten only to have grave robbers steal everything and Western archaeologists show up thousands of years later asking, "Who the fuck were you?"

Re:The Irony

[It doesn't come easy]

Ironically, I agree with you.

Re:The Irony

[sayfawa]

The fools. They should have had their slaves build something like this.

Re:The Irony

[CyberLord Seven]

I'm not so certain KMT used so many slaves as we once thought. New evidence is coming to light that suggests that the builders of the pyramids were paid employees rather than slaves.

In addition, the Bibles recording of the Jews as leaving KMT with Moses (A KMT name) is odd because the people of the Nile were meticulous record keepers. If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves.

There are no records to indicate any such crisis to the KMT economy.

Anyway, they did achieve a sort of immortality. You do know the names of many of these people despite the fact that you don't know which body belongs to which name.

Re:The Irony

[statusbar]

Daniel Jackson knows...

--jeffk++

Re:The Irony

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

The goal was to be remembered. They succeeded. Where's the irony?

Re:The Irony

[Colin Smith]

This is the truth for anyone who wants to make a name for themselves. 90% are forgotten within their own lifetime. 90% of the remaining are forgotten within a generation. Rinse and repeat until we have just a few names from history.

Re:The Irony

[Yazeran]

Anyone else find it ironic that these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids so that they would never be forgotten only to have grave robbers steal everything and Western archaeologists show up thousands of years later asking, "Who the fuck were you?"


Sorry to point out, but you are Wrong! The egyptians who build the pyramids and the royal tombs were highly skilled and decently paid workers. Archeologist have found the work camps of both the pyramid builders and the tomb workers, and they were in both cases quite decent standard considering the time.

Secondly at that time the Nile still had its yearly flooding for 2 to 3 months each year where the whole Nile valley were flooded and thus no farming could be performed and thereby providing the Egyptian pharos with a work force of ordinary people. Thirdly, the rich soil of the Nile provided with a large surplus food supply (also used by the Roman emperors later to bribe the citizens of Rome) making it possible to pay workers to build the temples and pyramids.

The Egyptians DID use slave labor though, but this was mainly in the silver and gold mines in the mountains near the red sea (and being sent to the mines as a slave was often equal to a death sentence.

Yours Yazeran

Plan: To go to Mars one day with a hammer.

Re:The Irony

[b0r1s]

Uh ... considering the alternatives, I think they succeeded. If they didnt try to build the massive pyramids, they'd have been forgotten like, say, the millions of slaves who worked for them, who's bodies will never be found/identified at all.

It may take time for the west to identify these mummies, but at least they have a chance. Those without such wild resources have no chance.

Re:The Irony

[spun]

Also, considering that these were tombs for God-Kings it would be rather an admission of being less than well loved to have to force people to work on them. Rather, I imagine working on the pyramids was something of an honer to be fought over by the common Egyptian.

Re:The Irony

[Drachemorder]

No one that knows anything about Biblical archaeology believes the Hebrews built the pyramids anyway. By all accounts the pyramids were built a good long while before there were any Hebrews around in the first place. There are also a number of interesting theories about where the Exodus fits into Egyptian history, although most of them do require a certain amount of reinterpretation of traditional dates. I wouldn't really expect to see too many accounts of it in Egyptian sources, though, because the pharoahs didn't generally seem to want to brag about the low points in their history for some reason.

Re:The Irony

[another_fanboy]

How do you trust a man married to an evil queen of the galaxy, has a former girlfriend who is another evil queen, and once used advanced alien technology to become the evil overlord of Earth?

Re:The Irony

[GreyPoopon]

If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves.

There are no records to indicate any such crisis to the KMT economy.

A couple thoughts here -- note that I'm only speculating with almost no knowledge to back it up -- perhaps some Egyptian History scholar can provide more information. First, you assume that the tasks performed by the slaves really had much of an impact on the economy. It might be more helpful to know what jobs they actually performed. If all they were doing was building pyramids and monuments for the pharaohs, cessation of such activity wouldn't have much of an impact on anyone but the pharaoh. On the other hand, if they were responsible for the food supply or something, that would have a larger impact. Second, keep in mind that subsequent pharaohs habitually wiped out nearly all mention of certain previous rulers seemingly on a whim. I would imagine that even the most meticulous records could and would suddenly disappear if so ordered by the pharaoh at the time.

Re:The Irony

[Plutonite]

Anyone else find it ironic that these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids so that they would never be forgotten only to have grave robbers steal everything and Western archaeologists show up thousands of years later asking, "Who the fuck were you?" Is this why you post as A/C, the futility of it all? :)

Re:The Irony

[CyberLord Seven]

I wasn't trying to suggest that the Hebrews built the pyramids. But if they were slaves they would have done all the menial chores one expects a slave to do. You know, tending cattle, bringing in the crops, hauling things. All the little stuff you want a robot to do for you today like sweeping and mopping your floors.

No one wants to brag about their low points but the KMT people did keep meticulous records about everything. The only records they would not keep were names. In KMT culture passing your name down meant you had acquired a level of immortality. If you pissed off someone who gained power after your death, that person might be tempted to remove your name, thus remove you from everlasting life.

It would be very difficult to hide the fact that herds were abandoned, crops were not brought in, ships were not built, and many other menial tasks were not done because some jackass let the Jews go. The effect on the KMT economy would have been felt quickly and would have lasted for a while. It's kind of hard to imagine not finding these records if there had been any exodus of any appreciable size.

Re:The Irony

[Paradise Pete]

his is the truth for anyone who wants to make a name for themselves. 90% are forgotten within their own lifetime. 90% of the remaining are forgotten within a generation. Rinse and repeat until we have just a few names from history.

And the attributes that make people temporarily extremely popular are almost completely different from the attributes that last.

Re:The Irony

[Penguinisto]

Not to take away the philosophical aspect you'd posted, but from TFA:

Hatshepsut's tomb, for example, was found looted and without any mummified female, possibly because her son and successor, Tuthmosis III, tried to wipe out all traces of her memory after she died in about 1482 BC.

...seems that her kid was hell-bent on making sure she wasn't remembered at all (considering the story on the relationship between the two, I could see where the guy would get all butt-hurt about his mom's successes, and the fact that she ruled for decades after he was old enough to have taken on the job (which was traditionally a male slot after all), and...

That she managed to have her name survive in spite of her own son's best efforts is pretty damned incredible, IMHO.

/P

PS: ...no jokes in these threads centering on Iron Maiden's Powerslave yet? WTF?

/P

Re:The Irony

[IDontAgreeWithYou]

Even more ironically I agree with you.

Re:The Irony

[CyberLord Seven]

Take all of the slaves out of Georgia in 1840. Just that one state. Imagine trying to hide the impact.

If you don't like that year pick another. If you don't like that state, pick another. Or pick another society like ancient Rome. Remove the slaves and then try to hide the impact on the economy. Then remember there's a reason we all know of Spartacus.

If what we call menial tasks don't get done, someone else has to do it or it will not be done. Suddenly menial tasks are so menial.

Re:The Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

odd because the people of the Nile were meticulous record keepers. If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves.

Because all the accountants and book keepers were Jews?

Re:The Irony

[ari_j]

I give you three and a half stars. For full points, you would have needed to work it "The fools! If only they had..." to be fully Futurama compliant.

Re:The Irony

[MorpheousMarty]

I have heard that the Egyptians did not like to write down bad news. I got this from the discovery channel, so it's only about as reliable as the Bible as info.

Re:The Irony

[vertinox]

In addition, the Bibles recording of the Jews as leaving KMT with Moses (A KMT name) is odd because the people of the Nile were meticulous record keepers. If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves.

There are some suggestions that the "Egypt" of the Old Testament, is not the same "Egypt" that history refers too. Possibly, due to the fact that ancient Hebrew has no vowels and certain things had to be interpreted by oral context.

Ranges go from either just local kingdoms in Syria/Jordan, to Turkey to Persia, and to really far fetched like Japan.

Re:The Irony

[Adult film producer]

The thing is, the nile floods for 3-4 months of year (which the egyptians call 'the inundation') Heavy rains from the mountains of ethiopia make their way down the nile and flood everything. People are left with nothing to do during this time so the pharoahs/kings took advantage of this downtime.. it's difficult to say whether they were forced/coerced into building the pyramids during this time. There are some inscriptions within the pyramids that suggest the men building them were proud of their work, ie. "Khufu's gang was here and we kicked ass!" (not in so many words.) After the nile receeded everybody went back to the fields to plant seeds and harvest the annual crop... I think Herodotus corroborates this general breakdown of the annual going-ons of the egyptians in his Histories.

Re:The Irony

[The_Wilschon]

It is possible that maybe the Hebrews didn't do such things. The Bible, after all, only claims that they made bricks.

Re:The Irony

[Patoski]

Ancient Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, but notorious revisionists. In their written records the ancient Egyptians sought to hide their military defeats.

Undoubtably the pharaoh would seek to blot out anything connected to what would have been one of Egypt's more embarrassing military defeats.

Re:The Irony

[kiracatgirl]

Assuming that the Hebrews were led out of Egypt by Moses and did not appreciably disrupt Egyptian life, there are a couple other possibilities besides "Egypt didn't rely on slaves." One, the number of Hebrews that left was small enough to be inconsequential. And two, the number of slaves that the Egyptians had was so very much larger than the group Hebrews that it was again inconsequential. The existing slaves temporarily fill in for the ones who left (they're slaves, no one cares if they're horribly overworked for a while), and the Egyptians go out and catch some more to replace the escapees.

Re:The Irony

[drinkypoo]

There are some inscriptions within the pyramids that suggest the men building them were proud of their work, ie. "Khufu's gang was here and we kicked ass!" (not in so many words.)

That doesn't imply that they weren't slaves, however. Only that they still had pride, in spite of it.

But anyway, recent research implies that the pyramids were made out of a primitive form of cement, so it might not have taken nearly as much labor as is assumed...

Re:The Irony

[briancnorton]

And they almost all got cameo roles on Stargate!

Re:The Irony

[rleibman]

Anyone else find it ironic that these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids so that they would never be forgotten only to have grave robbers steal everything and Western archaeologists show up thousands of years later asking, "Who the fuck were you?"

Nitpicking but you are doubly wrong... As far as I know the pyramids were not built by slaves. The XVIII dynasty occurred roughly 1000 years after the pyramids were built, when Egyptian rulers were being buried in the valley of the kings.
The average Egyptian probably loved their king in the same way than your average catholic love his pope. They built these tombs (and maintained them for thousands of years) with love and care.

Re:The Irony

[rleibman]

I heard the same thing from the 48 lecture course on Egyptology from "The Teaching Company", they never wrote a loosing battle, we sometimes infer that they lost because in the context of a war they keep on wining battles closer to home.

Re:The Irony

[CyberLord Seven]

You can try to hide important details but it will be obvious.

How do you hide the fact that the cows were not milked, or a road was not paved, or homes not painted, or cargo from boats was not offloaded?

You can remove official mention from all documents but the effect will be felt everywhere and recorded implicitly. For instance, if my boats were not loaded or unloaded while in KMT ports, I'm very likely to shift my fleet to another port leaving cargo in KMT or not bringing them goods they are expecting.

No matter how you slice it, if an appreciable number of slaves depart, it will be felt and recorded.

Hell, I just had a thought. Let's remove all Mexicans from the United States right now. Do you think you could hide that even if you wanted to? Whose gonna' break their backs picking my damn strawberries? Even if you could find someone dumb enough to do it, what's going to happen to the price of strawberries? Do you really think I'm not gonna' notice that a basket of strawberries now costs me twelve dollars? Do you really think that's not gonna' make it into many varied records even though you don't specifically mention that we kicked all the Mexicans out?

Yeah, I'm being a smart-ass with that analogy, but I think it works. :)

Re:The Irony

[xTantrum]

I think Herodotus corroborates this general breakdown of the annual going-ons of the egyptians in his Histories.

Herodotus also said geometry was the "gift of the nile" when its already documented the babylonians were using it way before. His words are suspect.

Re:The Irony

[JohnnyLocust]

these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids

From the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Pyramid_of_ Giza

19th century Egyptologist William Flinders Petrie proposed that the workforce was largely composed not of slaves but of the rural Egyptian population

Even though it is merely a theory, his work did show a great deal of facts to back the idea.

Re:The Irony

[snoozykat]

There is no record of a mass exodus of Israelites in ancient egyptian writing or pictures. nada, zip, zilch

Re:The Irony

[Knara]

"Steve Harris unavailable for comment (due to the fact that he mumbles in all his interviews)"....?

Re:The Irony

[triffid_98]

I know the research you're referring to, and it is by no means conclusive evidence of what you suggest. Further, if the blocks really were made out of cement per Davidovits theory, it would have taken more labor, not less. If you want a 70 ton cement brick, you'll need to haul up a lot more than 70 tons of cement, build forms, etc. It's most likely the case that the tops of the pyramids were constructed with cement, and the rest was quarried stone, placed in courses using levers.

But anyway, recent research implies that the pyramids were made out of a primitive form of cement, so it might not have taken nearly as much labor as is assumed...

Re:The Irony

[sacrilicious]

If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves. There are no records to indicate any such crisis to the KMT economy.

One of the tasks previously performed by the slaves was that of record-keeping.

Re:The Irony

[owlnation]

yes, but with blackjack and hookers...

Re:The Irony

[absorbr]

I saw a documentary a few weeks ago on Discovery HD called "Building the Great Pyramid" that gave evidence that suggested that they were not actually slaves. It will air again on July 13th and July 21st if anyone is interested.

Re:The Irony

[The One and Only]

Well, the African slaves were all mixed together so they didn't remember well after a generation or two which type of African they were, but before the American colonies started importing from Africa, they bought slaves from the Indians. So imagine, in ancient colonial times, one Indian tribe that lost a war and got sold to white plantation owners decided to up and leave, and were "guided by God" across the Mississippi River to what is now Kansas. That would have been noticed, yes, but not particularly disastrous to whoever owned all those slaves, especially if they had lots of other slaves, and the ability to start importing from Africa. Over time, no one would notice or remember the difference, except the tribe that made the exodus. It's like if all the Salvadorian immigrants to the U.S. decided to up and leave right now--it would make headlines, but those headlines would be lost in the crapflood of history 10 years from now.

Re:The Irony

[The One and Only]

That's not very feasible--the slaves were sort of mixed together, and interbred with Indians and whites, so they didn't have much of a sense of their single ethnicity. This is why most black Americans have only oral history (at best) to trace back where, exactly, in Africa they are from, other than the less-than-helpful clues that they were probably from west Africa--as that's the part of Africa that traded slaves--and that their ancestors managed to lose a war to some other African tribe (as that's how slaves were taken). Of course, given the high demand for slaves, there was a lot of war, so pretty much everyone managed to lose a few and have their people taken prisoner and sold into slavery.

Re:The Irony

[The One and Only]

Of course the departure of the Mexicans would be noticed. But did Egypt have as many Hebrews as we have Mexicans? If the Salvadorians all left, would we notice? It would be forgotten even if we did want to record it at the time.

Re:The Irony

[CODiNE]

In addition, the Bibles recording of the Jews as leaving KMT with Moses (A KMT name) is odd because the people of the Nile were meticulous record keepers. If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves.

There are no records to indicate any such crisis to the KMT economy.

It would be more accurate if you had said "There are no records that I am aware of". Unfortunately many pro-Bible discoveries of history, archaeology, etc... are not often publicly displayed nor discussed. It's not a subject academic people want to be seen supporting, who wants to be labeled some kind of religious nutcase?

I was just in Rome a few months ago and wanted to see the stone with Pontius Pilate's name on it. I didn't have net access at the time and assumed it might be at the Colosseum, or that they'd at least know where to point me to find it. Well instead they just laughed and told me that he never existed and I'm sadly uneducated. Sad that the people who work there still believe those old myths and weren't even aware that the stone I was asking for was found there at the Colosseum. It's actually in a museum in England I believe. Anyhow.

IANAH (Historian) but I do take an interest in religion and history, and I too have wondered if there's any evidence for the claim that the Hebrew people were once slaves in Egypt and had a mass exodus. As has already been discussed in other posts, the Egyptians were notorious for removing unpleasant events from their history and frequently erased prior rulers that were no longer popular. It's sad that so much ancient history has been lost, but there are secondary sources for the Egyptian exodus. Specifically I'm speaking of Josephus' writing "Against Apion". I'm not saying you have to accept what he wrote as fact, from what I understand he's generally highly regarded as a historian of his time. In "Against Apion" Josephus rebuts arguments made by the Greeks that the Jewish people are of a recent origin and that their entire history was an invented fraud. (Hey that's still an argument people make today) In those two books he uses foreign historians and evidence from Greek, Egyptian, Shebite and other's writings to prove that the Hebrew people were indeed around long before the Greeks were well developed and that further there was specific records that named real Hebrew rulers such as David and Solomon. Also in the course of his writings he points out three contradictory accounts in Egyptian histories that explain why the Hebrew slaves left their nation. I don't recall all three but I remember 2 of them, one that the Hebrew people were all sick and dirty people, so the Egyptians ran them off, and another that claims they rioted and overthrew the cities and then liberated themselves.

If you're interested in reading some of his accounts, I'm not sure exactly where to find it in the text, but search for the term "buboes" and you'll end up in the general area. There's an interesting little story there about how the Egyptians claimed the word "Sabbath" came from the fact that the Hebrews all got "buboes" (hemorrhoids) from all that walking in the desert and on the 7th day had to rest because they couldn't walk any more. Again, that was part of the Egyptian story on how and why the Hebrews left their country en mass.

I'm not attacking you personally, just pointing out what I have personally discovered while reading old books. While there may not be first-hand accounts written by the Egyptians, there are second-hand sources stating that they did write about it long ago.

Re:The Irony

[Libertarian001]

Feel free to explain. Both of my parents read, write and speak ancient Hebrew. (Job requirement for my father, my mother just loves languages) I personally don't speak any of it, but I'll get help from them if you'll pass on whatever you need to.

Re:The Irony

[Denial93]

"Theories" you call them? More like speculations and attempts to give some degree of credibility to the one tribal myth that 3 billion people happen to cling to. I'd like to see anyone spend this amount of effort on Little Red Riding Hood.

Re:The Irony

[Patoski]

No matter how you slice it, if an appreciable number of slaves depart, it will be felt and recorded.

Consider these points: The egyptians would have done their best to erase any mention of the Israelites, these events occurred thousands of years ago, and mummies (to say nothing of their written records) were used as kindling in Europe.

It is almost a certainty that we don't know about major events in ancient history, especially in Egypt.

There was a vigorous debate whether or not King David was a even a real person, until very recently. If the history of the greatest King in Isreal's history was lost, what do you think might occur to a bit of history the Egyptians would like for us to forget?

Archaeology is the Bible's truest friend...

Re:The Irony

[luckyguesser]

I don't know about the rest of the post (other commenters have done fairly well discussing / providing information), but concerning the fact that Moses is a KMT name: The story of Moses begins by describing how his Hebrew mother, while he was an infant, hid him in a basket and put him in the river (much akin to leaving him on the steps of a church). Moses was found, named, and raised by Egyptians.

Re:The Irony

[techno-vampire]

But if they were slaves they would have done all the menial chores one expects a slave to do.

That would be true if they were common slaves, but the Tanach makes it clear that they were owned by the state and were put to work strictly on public works, specifically on building treasure cities, specifically Pithom and Raamses as you'll find in Exodus 1:11.

Re:The Irony

[speaker of the truth]

I believe archaeologists have found lots of people babies that were buried beneath houses, which could be sync up with the Bible. Egypt was also invaded by foreign warriors who ruled over Egypt for some time with records from that time extremely spotty. Its possible they were in charge when the mass-Exodus happened, thus the lack of records.

The slavery myth also came from the Romans who asked the priests what the Pharaohs of ancient times had been like. The priests didn't like the current rulers (and some of the earlier rulers) so they badmouthed them and claimed they were used slaves to build the pyramids.

Re:The Irony

[speaker of the truth]

Well they're called African-Americans so they MUST be one single race.

Re:The Irony

[WilliamSChips]

1. His wife is dead.
2. Osiris was removed from Sarah Gardner.
3. The overlord of Earth thing only happened in a Shifu-induced dream.

You don't need to give up your geek card at the door as your geek card number has already been invalidated.

Re:The Irony

[scottrocket]

I am Has..Hapsush..Hatshi..Hapisphu..ehhhhh!!!

Re:The Irony

[h2g2bob]

I agree with you.

I agree with you.

And you wonder why they accuse us of groupthink

Re:The Irony

[Blain]

I find it tiresome to have people talking about all of the slaves the Egyptians took when there really were very few slaves in Egypt. The pyramids weren't built by slaves. The Egyptians managed to put together a civilization that survived for a half-dozen millenia -- more than three times as long as the Christian Era -- something no European civilization can touch. We're certainly in no position to be looking down our noses at them.

Re:The Irony

[mpe]

I'm not so certain KMT used so many slaves as we once thought. New evidence is coming to light that suggests that the builders of the pyramids were paid employees rather than slaves.

As well as having "industrial size" bakeries and breweries. Together with forensic archeology showing that injured workers were given the best medical treatment available.
Using slaves for major construction projects can be a very bad idea, as was show by Stalin's Gulags.

Re:The Irony

[mpe]

Ancient Egyptians were meticulous record keepers, but notorious revisionists.

This is something which applies to many cultures. Just about any society capable to keeping (and organising) historical records is also capable of replacing actual facts with politically correct propaganda.

Re:The Irony

[mpe]

No matter how you slice it, if an appreciable number of slaves depart, it will be felt and recorded.

In the Biblical story the slaves left after there had been a set of "plagues"/natural disasters. Thus you'd expect an already very troubled situation.

Re:The Irony

[bloobloo]

Gesundheit.

Re:The Irony

[Burb]

Ironically, that displays a complete lack of understanding of what irony means.
Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldrick: Yes, it's like goldy and bronzy only it's made out of iron.

Re:The Irony

[supersnail]

Slaves are people owned by other people or maybe the state.

Is thier a single written document say a will "and joe-bob gets my best spear, two sheep and a couple of slaves"
or a list of things confiscated from a criminal " .. fined two camels and a female slave ".

I have never heard of any such document among the vast collection of hieroglyphic writing.

It is true that later dynasties took military captives as slaves but the egytians seem to be one of the last ancient societies to adopt this practice.

Re:The Irony

[BendingSpoons]

Somewhat off-topic, but I listened to the same lectures by Bob Brier (aka Mr. Mummy) and I thought they were an excellent overview of ancient Egypt. For anyone with an interest in Egyptology, head over to your library and check out the audiotape: "The History of Ancient Egypt."

Re:The Irony

[drinkypoo]

It is true that later dynasties took military captives as slaves but the egytians seem to be one of the last ancient societies to adopt this practice.

If whatever practice is effectively slavery -- for example, working people to pay off some inherent (or inherited) 'debt' until they are too old to work for themselves -- then there is no particular reason to speak of it as anything but slavery.

I realize that there is some contention over whether or not the Egyptians actually employed slavery, or beyond that, if they employed it on any "significant" scale, but then some people deny all kinds of tragic events that we know occurred. I'm just speculating as if they were employing slavery.

Re:The Irony

[Creedo]

Thanks. You linked that episode, I clicked and then felt the compulsion to fix something in the cultural references(the orca eating the penguins was based on the movie Orca, not Jaws). I've been wikified!

Re:The Irony

[operagost]

Ironically, I had rain on my wedding day.

Re:The Irony

[operagost]

The Egyptians also wiped out entire dynasties from their records due to scandal or politics.

Re:The Irony

[operagost]

Take all of the slaves out of Georgia in 1840. Just that one state. Imagine trying to hide the impact.

Good thing the Israelites weren't the only slaves they had. And we're a little less displaced from the year 1840 than from the time period of Exodus.

Re:The Irony

[operagost]

How do you hide the fact that the cows were not milked, or a road was not paved, or homes not painted, or cargo from boats was not offloaded?

Can you tell me at any point in history if a cow went unmilked? Excellent!

Cow-milking is not exactly a civilization-shattering issue.

Re:The Irony

[operagost]

Whose gonna' break their backs picking my damn strawberries?

Oh, man. I didn't even notice this rubbish in your post. So you're injecting Hillary Clinton's talking points into a historical discussion? School students will pick the strawberries (as I did when I was a kid).

Re:The Irony

[jafac]

Exactly true.

Particularly in the case of our TOPIC:
This is why nearly every single statue of Hatshetsup was destroyed or defaced (usually, by breaking the nose off). There was a contingent in the priesthood that was very opposed to a female being pharoh. When her reign ended, they sought to erase it from history.

Re:The Irony

[ari_j]

Congratulations, your life is now complete. :P

Re:The Irony

[lxw56]

Absolutely. My siblings (6, age 6-15) made $30-160 each in a week of picking strawberries from a local farm and selling them at the road.

Re:The Irony

[alamandrax]

This person listens to Alanis Morisette. Give him/her a freaking medal.

Seriously.

Re:The Irony

[mcvos]

Take all of the slaves out of Georgia in 1840. Just that one state. Imagine trying to hide the impact. If you don't like that year pick another. If you don't like that state, pick another. Or pick another society like ancient Rome. Remove the slaves and then try to hide the impact on the economy. Then remember there's a reason we all know of Spartacus.

Neither 1840 not Spartacus were anywhere near as long ago as ancient Egypt. They may have kept lots of records, but that doesn't mean we've found them all. The only stuff that kept was what was built in the dry desert. In the Nile Delta, entire temples have disappeared over time. I'd be surprised if we knew more than 1% of everything that happened in ancient Egypt.

Re:The Irony

[mcvos]

You seem to be assuming that we know everything that happened in ancient Egypt. We don't. There are pharaos of whom we know only the name and nothing else. How is some work dispute going to show up compared to that?

Queen Sut

[Jozxyqk]

Born in Arizona,
Moved to Babylonia,
Queen 'Sut.

Re:Queen Sut

[Gaspo]

ID'd by a name carved in her mola Queen Sut

Re:Queen Sut

[wiredog]

Man. That takes me back. I was, what, about 13 when Steve Martin did that?

Yep.

Re:Queen Sut

[SoCalEd]

Yup. All that and a condo made a stona.

Love it!

Re:Queen Sut

[AmiAthena]

Actually I think it's King 'Sut. Wasn't she the one who had herself crowned Pharoah?

Inscription

[kevin_conaway]

A molar inscribed with the queen's name...

Interesting. Did the Egyptians do that after she died or when she was alive? I feel kind of silly asking if it was done while she was alive but they did some other bizarre stuff, at least by todays standards.

Re:Inscription

[EveryNickIsTaken]

This was the original "Grill." That's right.. Kickin' it *really* old school, egypt-style.

Re:Inscription

[TubeSteak]

FTFA:

During the embalming process, it was common to set aside spare body parts and preserve them in such a box.

I other words: After she was dead, they put her tooth in a box.

It's lucky they did, because as TFA also explains, her tomb was looted and the mummy removed, though not in the article is the fact that her son removed her cartouche and representation from all the monuments and temples he could find.

Re:Inscription

[timelorde]

Nice editing in the summary. The actual article says that the Queen's name was on the box, not on the tooth.

Sheesh.

I do love that Egyptian stuff, however.

Re:Inscription

[kevin_conaway]

Nice editing in the summary. The actual article says that the Queen's name was on the box, not on the tooth. Sheesh. I do love that Egyptian stuff, however.

Thanks, I missed that in the article.

Re:Inscription

[Rob T Firefly]

So in another 3500 years, archeologists will dig up Flava Flav and assume he was a wise and great leader? *shudder*

Re:Inscription

[smaddox]

I've noticed that a lot of ancient rulers had the habit of erasing previous rulers from historical existence. Very 1984-esque.

I guess they wanted people to think they were immortal and had always been, and will always be their ruler.

Re:Inscription

[Hoi Polloi]

Right now some college girl in Jamaica is drunk and having that done. It'll go well with her ass-tat.

Re:Inscription

[The One and Only]

A lot of it was just plain plagiarism and taking shit over. If you became pharoah and there was a monument that said, "THIS IS PLACED HERE IN MEMORY OF THE GREAT PHAROAH JOE, WHO WAS A REALLY SWELL GUY AND MADE EGYPT POWERFUL AND PROSPEROUS", you would scratch out "Joe" and write in your own name. All of a sudden you have all the monuments, with no cost to you!

Re:Inscription

[Frogbert]

And they would be correct... Fo Sho

Re:Inscription

[Don_dumb]

There is a theory that various 'rebrandings' is exactly what The Sphinx was believed to have gone through (possibly 7 times) several rulers had the statute altered to match themselves and then, of course, the inscriptions also. Which is why attributing it to a single original builder is so difficult.

Bad Teeth

[StefanJ]

I recently finished listening to a lecture series on the history of ancient Egypt. Fascinating stuff. As I recall, Queen Hatshepsut was kind of erased from history by a later pharaoh. Lady leaders just didn't fit in with the Way Things Were Supposed to Be.

Lots of ancient Egyptians had bad teeth. Flour tended to have lots of sand in it thanks to the grinding process, and chewing wore away tooth enamel very efficiently.

Stefan

Re:Bad Teeth

[kevin_conaway]

I recently finished listening to a lecture series on the history of ancient Egypt. Fascinating stuff. As I recall, Queen Hatshepsut was kind of erased from history by a later pharaoh.

The TFA mentions that it might have been her son

Lots of ancient Egyptians had bad teeth. Flour tended to have lots of sand in it thanks to the grinding process, and chewing wore away tooth enamel very efficiently.

Just like modern day meth heads

Re:Bad Teeth

[cromar]

You don't eat meth. See these two articles on "meth mouth".

Re:Bad Teeth

[Rolgar]

The Smithsonian had a great article on this late last year. (Hit cancel on the single page print dialog.)

Re:Bad Teeth

[CRiMSON]

If you chewed up Meth sure.. But since you don't I'm not sure how this would be like modern day meth heads?

Re:Bad Teeth

[drinkypoo]

The TFA mentions that it might have been her son

I don't mean to go off on a rant here, but do you read The TFA before you go extract cash from an ATM Machine?

Re:Bad Teeth

[rleibman]

The one from the teaching company? Funny, I just finished it yesterday!

Queen Hatshepsut

[Mad Dog Manley]

I'm sure many here remember Queen Hatshepsut from Civilization IV!

Re:Queen Hatshepsut

[Gospodin]

Heh. I'm in the middle of a game right now and Hatshepsut is "cautious" towards me. She keeps wanting to make crazy trades, like I give her "Flight" and she gives me "Military Tradition". Come on, Queen 'Sut, I'm not going for that!

Medical procedures

[ushering05401]

I am interested in what medical techniques they might uncover by examining the evidence. It is reported that this lady not only had bone cancer, but probably liver cancer and diabetes.

What lengths did the Egyptians, so often given credit for advanced medicine for their era, go to to save a ruler considered divine?

Regards.

Re:Medical procedures

[Cedric Tsui]

The medical techniques uncovered may not be all that interesting for modern medicine.

The first Chinese emperor for instance demanded that his alchemists find him an elixir for immortality. So they gave him mercury, which of course eroded away his brain, causing insanity and then a premature death.

Some legends said an elixir of immortality existed in the islands of the eastern coast, and the emperor sent one of his alchemists along with sizeable military force to these islands with the instructions not to return until they had found the elixir. Some say that this caused the birth of Japan.

Re:Medical procedures

[Dunbal]

It is reported that this lady not only had bone cancer, but probably liver cancer and diabetes.

      I'm not a forensic anthropologist, but as a physician I can say there are a lot of signs to tell you that a patient has cancer even if you only recover a fragment. Especially osteosarcoma (bone cancer), which tends to produce lytic lesions (areas where the bone is less dense) in most of the bones of the body. A quick x-ray of the jaw could reveal this. Plus osteosarcoma will alter calcium and PTH levels and dramatically change bone formation and reabsorbtion. See, bone is LIVING tissue. It's constantly being absorbed and recreated.

      Now I don't know where they get liver cancer from - it's very unlikely that a patient will have TWO separate types of cancer. But the liver lesions are probably just metastases of the primary osteosaarcoma.

      The egyptians were rather advanced in the field of medicine - FOR THEIR DAY. There is no possible way they could approach the level of medicine we had say 200 years ago, much less today. Diabetes is a complex disease that is eventually lethal when left untreated. I doubt very much they had discovered that feeding patients pig pancreases could mitigate this disease somewhat, since this was discovered early last century. We won't talk about sulfonyl-ureas and other oral hypoglycemiants.

      They were pretty good at basic surgery, they had a pretty good idea of which tumors NOT to touch (because they got worse if you touched them), and it's rumored that some were even capable of drilling burr holes in patients' skulls to treat subdural hematomas (from trauma/battle injuries) or encephalitis/meningitis (to relieve the pressure inside the skull from a swollen brain/membranes). However we MUST bear in mind that we have NO record of what their actual success rate was with these procedures. It's easy to attribute supernatural powers to a vanished culture, however reality is they had no antibiotics, precious little by way of anesthetics, and more importantly no scientific method.

Re:Medical procedures

[drinkypoo]

As I understand it they used raw honey as an antibiotic.

I will second this, I too have done it, and it does work quite nicely. It does have to be raw (aka, not pasteurized) honey, because cooking it destroys all the goodness.

There are actually other antibiotics in this world, too, and some of them have been used for very long periods of time, for example neem tree seed oil. (Also works as a contraceptive - at least, it's working for myself and my lady. Smells kind of weird though, it makes pussy smell like a tiger's milk energy bar or something.) Supposedly it even works as a [relatively] safe abortifact.

While the GP is correct that "It's easy to attribute supernatural powers to a vanished culture" they are mostly wrong about them not having an antibiotic. However, it's not a systemic antibiotic - eating it will not cure a yeast infection. The Egyptians did have other cures for that, however, so it's likely that they knew a lot more than most people think they did - but then, most people don't know jack about shit. Honey is only a topical antibiotic. It is yummy when taken internally, and supposedly it helps inure you to pollen allergens if you eat local raw honey, which is made of those pollens... and it might even be healthful in some ways. But it's not an antibiotic when used in that fashion.

Re:Medical procedures

[Dunbal]

Not to split hairs, but the honey is actually working as an anti-septic.

      We do use sugar and/or honey from time to time to treat large, difficult ulcers in our hospitals here. The idea is that the sugar is something that stimulates growth in the wound while at the same time the huge osmotic pressure prevents bacterial growth. Honey is high in fructose, but it will work with plain old sugar, too.

      An antibiotic is a drug that targets specific types bacteria by inhibiting growth or cell wall synthesis, etc. Honey, on the other hand will kill ALL cells, bacteria or otherwise. Fortunately for us, however, our circulation helps minimize the osmotic gradient and the only cells that die are the ones on the fringe of the wound - which are probably injured anyway.

      Another thing we use - funnily enough - is epamin - an anti-covulsant medication that somehow is very similar to certain tissue growth factors and does help heal wounds faster.

      So, to make my point - yes ok, the egyptians probably used honey, wine, and even vinegar as antiseptics. However this is not as effective as say cepahlexin :)

Re:Medical procedures

[Reziac]

Honey acts as a general anti-bacterial (not precisely an antibiotic) because that concentration of sugar disrupts bacteria osmosis -- effectively sucks all the water out of the little bugglies. A saturated solution of salt or table sugar or even Epsom salts would work just as well, tho wouldn't sound as magical. ;)

The downside is that some of the really NASTY bacterias, like some clostridium species, can survive just fine in honey.

Honey isn't made of pollens, tho it usually has some pollen in it. It's made of dessicated flower nectar.

BTW honey is fairly acidic, and will destroy concrete. Old-style dense concrete is more resistant and will only etch a little; with modern concrete, I've seen honey eat half an inch off the floor in less than 10 years. (I used to work for a beekeeper.)

Re:Medical procedures

[Fear the Clam]

The idea is that the sugar is something that stimulates growth in the wound while at the same time the huge osmotic pressure prevents bacterial growth.

I believe that it was Poppins who also noted that a spoonful of sugar helped medicine go down in a most delightful way.

Re:Medical procedures

[syousef]

You had me right up until suggesting they didn't have a scientific method.

I'm sure I could find a better source but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
"Ancient Egyptian documents, such as early papyri, describe methods of medical diagnosis. In ancient Greek culture, the method of empiricism was described. The experimental scientific method was developed by Muslim scientists, who introduced the use of experiments to distinguish between competing scientific theories set within a generally empirical orientation, which emerged with Alhazen's optical experiments in his Book of Optics (c. 1000)."

Unfortunately Empiricism and the Greek culture is usually attributed with the "discovery" of the scientific method.

Now as for antibiotics, again modern anti-biotics - sure they didn't have them. However the ancient Chinese did have them in some primitive form.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antibiotic#History
"Although potent antibiotic compounds for treatment of human diseases caused by bacteria (such as tuberculosis, bubonic plague, or leprosy) were not isolated and identified until the twentieth century, the first known use of antibiotics was by the ancient Chinese over 2,500 years ago"

How about anesthetics? To be fair your description of "precious little" is probably about right.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesia
"The first herbal anesthesia was administered in prehistory. Opium poppy capsules were collected in 4200 B.C., and opium poppies were farmed in Sumeria and succeeding empires. The use of opium-like preparations in anaesthesia is recorded in the Ebers Papyrus of 1500 B.C."

I was watching a documentary on Ancient Rome and a surgical kit circa 100BC pretty much matched the metal surgical tools that are still used today and were the only option until a handful of decades back.

My point is don't write off ancient cultures as primitive. They certainly didn't have the things we have that make our knowledge so much more advanced - mass manufacturing capability, near instantaneous exchange of information, electronics and precision manufacturing - but they had capable competent and inquisitive people and we're only where we are today because we built on what they invented.

Re:Medical procedures

[penguin_dance]

I wondered how they could tell she was fat...being that it's a shriveled up mummy now. Or about the diabetes, unless they could pull that from any saved organs.

Re:Medical procedures

[mikael]

The Egyptian fermentation process for beer also happened to generate tetracycline, an antibiotic.

Good link here

Re:Medical procedures

[beyowulf]

What lengths did the Egyptians, so often given credit for advanced medicine for their era, go to to save a ruler considered divine?

Who's giving the Egyptians credit for advanced medicine for their era? Most of their medicine was a mixture of superstition and quackery. They'd cover open wounds with poultices composed of human fecal matter(among other things).

So wait...

[VE3OGG]

So wait... This mummy, was a daddy who has been discovered as a mummy? I am guessing her kids needed therapy and might be a good candidate for the Jerry Springer Show, or the a match for Paris Hilton

Pharaoh genome

[Anonymous Coward]

Do we have enough of any pharaoh's DNA to sequence their full genome? Or at least enough DNA from relatives so that a particular's dynasties genome can be figured out.

Does anyone know?

Re:Pharaoh genome

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_DNA

Re:Pharaoh genome

[Dunbal]

The missing pieces can be replaced by frog DNA.

Alternatively you can replace it with DNA from seven fat and seven starving cows.

Re:Pharaoh genome

[WilliamSChips]

All this talk about Ancient DNA and nothing on the ATA gene! I feel MENDICATED!

I have a 98% similarity in DNA...

[Short Circuit]

Can I get my inheritance, now?

Re:I have a 98% similarity in DNA...

[Dunbal]

Can I get my inheritance, now?

      Considering the fact that a lot of them were executed/assassinated, your inheritance might just consist of a short length of rope and a dangle on the gallows.

Re:I have a 98% similarity in DNA...

[Tatisimo]

I share about 95% DNA with chimpanzees... as a close living relative, I demand ownership of the lands that were taken away from them by greedy forest destroyers!

So close to TFA, but not exactly...

[Cragen]

The mummy "was found in 1903 in a tomb in the Valley of the Kings, where the young Pharaoh Tutankhamun was buried, and Hawass himself thought until recently that it belonged to the owner of the tomb, Hatshepsut's wet-nurse by the name of Sitre In.

But the decisive evidence was a molar in a wooden box inscribed with the queen's name, found in 1881 in a cache of royal mummies collected and hidden away for safekeeping at the Deir al-Bahari temple about 1,000 metres (yards) away.

During the embalming process, it was common to set aside spare body parts and preserve them in such a box.

Orthodontics professor Yehya Zakariya checked all the mummies which might be Hatshepsut's and found that the tooth was a perfect fit in a gap in the upper jaw of the fat woman.

"The identification of the tooth with the jaw can show this is Hatshepsut," Hawass said. "A tooth is like a fingerprint."

"It is 100 percent definitive. It is 1.80 cm (wide) and the dentist took the measurement and studied that part. He found it fit exactly 100 percent with this part," he told Reuters

So, no new mummy discovery, just new understanding of the evidence, as is often the case with the PYRAMIDS of data that science-types have still to de-cypher. (If I understand the articles right...)

Re:So close to TFA, but not exactly...

[brian0918]

What are you talking about? You seem to have misread the submission. What gave you the impression that the mummy was a new discovery??? The only thing that's new is the identification.

Re:So close to TFA, but not exactly...

[Cragen]

Well, I read the HEADLINE ("First Royal Mummy Found Since Tut is Identified") as /.'s editors saying someone found a new mummy.

So, if I read that wrong, I apologize, but I doubt that I am the only one who read it like that.

Cheers

Re:So close to TFA, but not exactly...

[curunir]

This makes the Slashdot title even more incorrect since the mummy of Ramses I has been identified since Tut Ankh Amon's mummy was discovered.

That mummy was sold to a tourist in the mid 1800's and eventually made it's way to a small museum near Niagra Falls. Only recently was it realized that what was assumed to be little more than a side-show attraction was actually a royal mummy.

Re:So close to TFA, but not exactly...

[brian0918]

Thank slashdot for not giving enough space to use proper grammar. "The first royal mummy found since the discovery of Tut has been identified."

Hold your horses, buddy

[Lurker2288]

"If so many people had departed as suggested in the Bible, then many critical tasks would have gone undone or would have been performed poorly due to low staffing or unskilled workers performing the tasks in the place of the slaves."

Do you mean to suggest that something written in the BIBLE might not be literal truth? Boy, them's fightin' words!

Re:Hold your horses, buddy

[smaddox]

You laugh, but my next-door-neighbor just got out his shotgun, white robes, and bible (in that order).

Re:Hold your horses, buddy

[operagost]

Point out to your Klansman neighbor that the Bible never says that the Jews built the pyramids and maybe he'll calm down.

Re:Modern day descendants

[megaditto]

The Colosseum, the Aqueduct, and the Pantheon all survive to today, so the ancient tyrants did do a few things for the people.

A show about her was in New York last year

[smooth wombat]

The Metropolitan Museum of Art had a special exhibit on Hatshepsut last year. It was not located with their egyptian wing but in a separate location. I had taken my parents there as my mom is our resident egyptologist and there were two other exhibits I wanted to see (the arms and armor permanent collection and the travelling tibetan armor exhibit).

It was certainly interesting seeing all the pieces from her reign that had been destroyed in an attempt to erase her memory from history. Despite the pieces having been carved by hand, my dad would bring up the subject of how hard it is for him to use a dremel tool to carve things and how he would like to know how they did the intricate carvings. Needless to say, we would look around after he would say that and hope no real egyptologist was around.

ISIS

[cybpunks3]

Did they find an amulet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_Isis

King Tut?

[BigBadBus]

Why do Americans call the boy king "King Tut"? His full name was Tutankhamun (or Tutankhamen)! Is this name so hard to spell or pronounce? Tut makes him sound like some fifth rate Batman villain! Grrrrrr!

Re:King Tut?

[cgh4be]

Are you kidding?

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids. individual&videoID=881873426

Re:King Tut?

[Overzeetop]

1. There is a popular song

2. It has four syllables, roughly two more than the average American can pronouce. Add to that the kh in there and that excludes about 95% of the US population from ever getting the pronunciation correct.

Re:King Tut?

[drinkypoo]

It has four syllables, roughly two more than the average American can pronouce. Add to that the kh in there and that excludes about 95% of the US population from ever getting the pronunciation correct.

Exactly. My lady's last name is Photinos. Guess how many phone monkeys can get that right, out of a hundred? Hint: It's not very fucking many.

My last name, as is fairly obvious, is Espinoza. My first name is Martin. I've gotten mail for Maria, Martina, Martine, Martn, Marti, and so on. Last names vary widely (but much of the time even my Employer writes it -sa instead of -za) but the best one was "Estinova", which came with the first name "Martina". Martin is a German name, two syllables, with a glottal stop, but when I say my name is "Mar'tin" (the ' is the stop) people ask me "Mark? Marty?" etc.

Moral of the story: people are fucking lame.

Re:King Tut?

[TechnicolourSquirrel]

Why do Americans call the boy king "King Tut"? His full name was Tutankhamun (or Tutankhamen)! Is this name so hard to spell or pronounce? Tut makes him sound like some fifth rate Batman villain! Grrrrrr! I'm afraid I must object to your use of this one-syllable colloquialism, 'Grrrrrr!' Would it have been so difficult to type 'This makes me very angry,' in proper English?

Re:King Tut?

[Plutonite]

Nonsense! The person who called you Martina Estinova was incredibly funny and I would be his friend. You on the other hand, with your "glottal" stops, are painfully lame. Plus..German? Oh the humanity.

[insert grammar-Nazism joke here]

Re:King Tut?

[Old Wolf]

I suppose so; there are two common and quite different pronunciations of the name!
In my area "tootin' carmen" is usual but I often hear "tut anchor min"

Re:King Tut?

[Overzeetop]

Does anybody pronounce Martin without the glottal stop, unless they're trying to over-enunciate? I'm from Wash, D.C., live on the east coast of the US, and generally am considered to have a "neutral" accent (i.e. mid-west) when I'm not being lazy or hanging out with rednecks. I've only heard the T pronoucned in the movie Gross Pointe Blank, and I presumed it was done for effect.

Re:Modern day descendants

[iggy456]

The national infastructure of Ancient Egypt is still there. The Nile provided water, transporation highway and even the renewal of the farmlands via the early floods.

Re:Modern day descendants

[Comboman]

And furthermore those guys were mostly tyrants (why would they build a pyramid to themselves instead of lasting national infrastructure?).

Do you know how many millions of dollars a year the pyramids generate in tourism? Sounds like lasting national infrastructure to me.

OOPS!

[CyberLord Seven]

I meant to write Suddenly menial tasks are NOT so menial. :)

Title

[felipekk]

I'm pretty sure I was the only one to read "First Royal Mommy Found Since Tut is Identified".

And as I didn't link Tut to the Pharaoh, I didn't re-read the title. I just though "what the heck!' and clicked the rss link...

That is interesting

[paladinwannabe2]

Because the Egyptians used damnatio memoriae to remove heretics, assassins, and other 'unpersons' from their records, it's impossible to show that someone like Moses didn't exist. Something as important as a large group of slaves leaving, though, would probably have an impact that would show up in their records.

Well, duh.

[kiracatgirl]

"Preliminary results show similarities between its DNA and that of Ahmose Nefertari, the wife of the founder of the 18th dynasty and a probable ancestor of Hatsephsut's."

Of course there were similarities. All Ancient Egyptian royalty was related; they usually married each others cousins and siblings. Since it was a bunch of royal mummies, they're all going to be similar.

Re:Modern day descendants

[megaditto]

Monetary system, military/defence, police + legal/court system, general infrastructure including roads, granaries, irrigation and sewage systems, support for universities, poets and philosophers?

Obligatory Shelley

[Valdrax]

Anyone else find it ironic that these rulers enslaved entire races of people for generations to build gigantic pyramids so that they would never be forgotten only to have grave robbers steal everything and Western archaeologists show up thousands of years later asking, "Who the fuck were you?"

People have noted the irony before.

Ozymandius
by: Percy Bysshe Shelley

I met a traveler from an antique land
Who said: "Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert... Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal these words appear:
My name is Ozymandius, King of Kings,
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

Hatshepsut doesn't work

[Hoi Polloi]

Sorry but Hatshepsut just doesn't sound right...

"Queen Hatshepsut
Buried with a donkey
She's my favorite honkey"

Nope, sorry

Workers

[Disharmony2012]

Egyption's had indentured servants, not slaves.

Not "First Since Tut"...

[rtaylor187]

In 1999 Emory University's Michael C. Carlos Museum bought the Egyptian contents from the Niagra Falls Museum and relocated this collection to Atlanta. Subsequently, one of the mummies was positively identified as the missing Ramesses I and was returned to Egypt. More info here: http://www.carlos.emory.edu/RAMESSES/

Re:Two Words LIST THEM

[WilliamSChips]

hey Joseph
The State Department Community would like you to within the next 30 days in detail list those 235 communists a suggested Format
Social Security Number || Link to Moscow || date of first appearance

please don't pull a TSCOG on this no bleep cases no Mogging around number source date

Hatshepsut and Thutmosis

[kbahey]

Hatshepsut is a very interesting historical figure.

She reigned during Egypt's New Kingdom, a little after Ahmose drove out the Asiatic Hyksos from the north, and unifying Egypt again under native rule, and bringing Egypt to it final age of glory in ancient times.

She was the Pharoah of Egypt, marrying her half brother, Thutmosis II (a common practice then), who had a son, Thutmosis III by a lesser wife, and co-ruled with her nephew.

She sent ships and explorers to the Land of Punt (thought to be Somalia).

The explorers who returned recorded their findings on the walls of her temple (El Deir El Bahari: modern name: the Northen Monastery, original "Djeser djeseru").

You can see amazing details of Red Sea fauna there, such as spiny lobster, squid and other creatures.

There are inscriptions of natives from Africa too in meticulous detail, as well as their dwellings (thatched huts). There is even an obese queen from Punt with some disfigurement.

You can see a replica of the inscriptions at the Royal Ontario Museum (ROM) in Toronto (rather there was big room full of that when I was there a few years ago).

So, when Thutmosis III finally took over, he went through a campaign of removing her memory from history. Although being his aunt, she was also his step mother, and God knows what relationship they had when his father was alive.

Although other Pharoahs did this regularly, it was not targeted towards any particular one specifically, but rather an attempt to claim the monuments of predecessors as his own.

Her statues were toppled in wells (where they were discovered in the 19th century).

More detail here.

Re:Hatshepsut and Thutmosis

[ravenwynd]

If I remember correctly, Hatshepsut was instrumental in changing the Religious focus at the time. Many were against this change, thus when Thutmosis followed as Pharoah, the old religious ways were re-instituted and her likeness removed/defaced to basically disavow the changes that were made.

Re:Hatshepsut and Thutmosis

[kbahey]

I think you are confusing her with Akhnaten, who indeed caused a religious revolution by decreeing that there is only one god (the sun disc Aten), and moved the capital of Egypt to Akhet-aten.

Meanwhile he neglected the borders, and things decayed.

Upon his death his policies were reversed with a vengeance.

His wife was Nefertiti who is famous in the west. Maybe that is the source of the confusion.

Re:Hatshepsut and Thutmosis

[ravenwynd]

Ah, yep. Your right, I got them confused.

Re:Modern day descendants

[WilliamSChips]

Those are all Roman, and mostly built by engineers(the Romans were the first engineers, the Greeks were liberal-arts majors), not the emperors themselves.

Re:Modern day descendants

[salec]

Archimedes of Syracuse, Hero of Alexandria ... most famous engineers of Classical Age, were Greeks (well... Hellenic colonists in Sicily and Egypt, respectively) and they predated and very much influenced and inspired Roman engineers (which is why memory of those two is so well preserved).

Most Amazing Discovery

[hanshotfirst]

I can't decide what is more amazing - that they found and identified this mummy after so many years... or that the Discovery Channel already has a documentary on the find completed on the day the news is released. (OK, no so amazed by either, the more I think of it)

Re:What flavor?

[lonechicken]

Apparently Futurama references are now marked Troll???

Yes, actually. The cat does "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> 'a fat woman in her 50s who had rotten teeth...' Reuters also reports on the DNA
> analysis: 'Preliminary results show similarities between its DNA and that of Ahmose Nefertari

Well, if ya wanna know what that sweet young thing'll look like in 30 years...

Re:Modern day descendants

[mcvos]

why would they build a pyramid to themselves instead of lasting national infrastructure?

Because there already was a very good national infrastructure. Living in Egypt was quite easy as long as you let the Nile do most of your work for you.