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Blu-ray, HD DVD Target of EU Antitrust Probe
rfunches writes "The Wall Street Journal reports that EU antitrust regulators are turning up the heat on the Blu-ray and HD-DVD format consortiums. The European Commission has demanded evidence of Hollywood studios' communications and agreements on the new generation of DVD formats. From the article: 'The European Commission, the European Union's executive body, appears to be particularly interested in the activities of the Blu-ray group because of its dominance in Hollywood, according to people familiar with the situation. The commission is investigating whether improper tactics were used to suppress competition and persuade the studios to back their format.' The article points out that all of the major Hollywood studios except Universal are backing Blu-ray; Universal is backing HD-DVD. It also notes that while one industry watcher believes the first format to have an installed base of two million homes will come out on top, there were millions of Betamax units already sold when VHS won out in the format wars of the 80's."
The EU is trying to make sure there actually is a choice for consumers.
If studios were provided on all brands it would be better for the consumer.
The EU is only trying to protect the consumer here, why would any consumer be against that?
Its been speculated that VHS beat Betamax due to more support from the pR0n industry. Sex sells.
Your're right. That war has nothing to do with monopoly, and shouldn't be touched by EU. Both groups have more than enough cash to persuade whoever they want to join their camp. Overall the one with better connections and marketing power will win.
Just my 2p.
"an experienced, industrious, ambitious, and often, quite often, picturesque liar" - Mark Twain
I sadly agree. If consumers are more interested in "zomg high-def jackass 2!" than they are in choosing a format that has more liberalized licensing, more power to them.
Assuming they're not using nasty tactics.
+5, Truth
The US certainly doesn't give a damn. At least some regulatory board is investigating, even if it turns out to be a red herring.
If so - yeah, it would be nice if I could play Super Paper Mario on my Xbox 360 but I don't think forcing Nintendo to release it there is very free-market. If a movie studio doesn't want to release their films in a particular format, so be it. The issue is not that a studio has to release in all formats, the issue is whether studios were strong-armed into choosing to release in a particular format.
Huh? Of course they let the consumers make that choice.
Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Consumers have the choice of purchasing a Blu-Ray player, a HD DVD player, both or neither.
Choose my own format, like BitTorrent?
... sorry I keep dragging that joke up, but why should I buy a new player when my PC works fine?
monk.e.boy
Open source, flash charts
This is why I support an independent media specification organization.
Do the research, find the best format, make the specs public and everyone profits.
Thats my two cents
I don't have a microwave. I do, however, have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
as stated, the EU is trying to make sure there are options for the consumer, but basically, it boils down to this.
1) The average person cannot know all there is to know about everything, as such, most people don't know most of the things there is to know about what they buy. This means that the providers have a major advantage if they want to rip off or swindle someone. Unfortunately what the EU is doing is one of the more effective ways to prevent this, and thus could be considered necessary for people to not get conned.
2) Related to 1, "the consumer" is not organized or a group. Anything trying to protect the consumer typically has to walk a fine line to avoid things like libel, and there's a lot of data to parse through for some things. Add to that that these protective groups typically cant reach all consumers effectively, many will still make uninformed choices. As such, a group that takes consumer interaction out of the equation, to enforce a change, might actually be useful.
So, all the knowledge and organization is in the hands of the producer, not the consumers. While the consumers have the power, they cannot effectively wield it. Therein lies the problem.
So, in /. terms
US vs M$ Anti Trust - good thing
EU vs Hollywood Anti Trust - bad thing
Or am I missing something here?
init 11 - for when you need that edge.
Different situation entirely. There is no technical reason for a film on Blu-ray not to be on HD DVD. Where as consoles have completely different architectures and technical differences.
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
Essentially, the government does a hefty amount to prevent consumers from being conned, and as a result, consumers are lured into a false sense of security and therefore are easier to con.
+5, Truth
HDTV penetration has to be much higher in all markets. VHS and Beta both worked on all TV's made at the time. These only work on HDTVs (to get any benefit from the formats). The majority of TVs out there are still SD. Likely by the time HDTV penetration is high enough, another format will emerge, or hybrid players will be very common.
shocked!
We all benefit from Free Markets because we get to choose between super-hd-blue or blue-super-hd. Why do we need regulators?
Got Trader Joe's? friendwich.com RSS feeds work now!
They are investigating whether the named studios removed consumer choice by only releasing in BR format. A real open format competition would would be all studios releasing movies in both formats, and letting the consumer choose. What they need to consider, however, is that Sony now owns several major studios, so there is no reason for those studios to back their competitor.
Could Nintendo release Super Paper Mario on the 360? Yes. It would cost some money to do the port. Nintendo doesn't want this expense.
Could Universal release their movies on Blu-Ray? Yes. It would cost some money to license Blu-Ray. Universal doesn't want this expense.
A company has the right to do business as they see fit within the limits of the law. A customer does not have the right to whatever movie they want in whatever format they want, as the poster I was responding to was suggesting.
wow that's a broad statement
Because standards are nice? Does your BT rip have sub-titles? Are they actually correct/present all the time? Is the video/audio quality consistent? etc...
I'd rather spend $9 on a movie [I buy them when they're in the bargain bins] than a day downloading a rip that MIGHT actually be done properly, only to find out I have to burn it to a disk to keep it [storing movies on a HD is annoying over the long run].
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Just like there is no technical reason a Nintendo game can't run on a XBOX. It's all 1's and 0's right?
But regarding the Blu-Ray and HD DVD there are storage size and other technical differences, which various studios might find useful depending on the situation.
Not to mention those pesky licensing fees. Why license both? If you do, you have to raise prices, and what consumer wants that? heh.
I disagree - the regulators are ... regulating.
They are investigating whether the manufacturers of players have engaged in anti-competitive practices when doing deals with the movie studios and other content providers. If it turns out that one or other of the consortia have strong-armed or bribed many studios into supporting their format exclusively then then there isn't a proper free market in next-gen players and the best interests of consumers are not served - consumers will choose to buy the players for the format with the most content available for it, regardless of whether that is the best format for consumers when judged on a level playing field.
Indeed, I understand your point, I was suggesting the decision to release a film on a particular format is motivated more by politics than anything. I'm sure Universal would easily make their money back on licencing.
Did you get that thing I sent ya?
You're forgetting that Sony owns stakes in both the content and delivery systems. Any movie distributed through one of the many Sony film production studios will NEVER be released on HD-DVD, thus removing consumer choice before it even had a chance.
The issue being brought up is if they used tactics that took the decision -away- from the customer.
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde
just as insighteful as the GP I'd think.
34486853790
Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
One of the differences between PAL and NTSC is the frame refresh rate. And that is based on the line frequency of electricity being delivered to the consumers in the various countries. So even if everyone used PAL (or NTSC), you would still have different products based on the different frames per second.
Well if they want THAT, then why don't they fund HD-DVD or Blu-Ray or even a third party format using your tax dollars?
That way your guaranteed choice, citizen!
They call me the wookie man, I guess that's what I am
It's not really much of a choice if nobody releases movies in a particular format (that is, then customers have no real choice).
One word:
Cartel
How is that any different than Square-Enix getting paid by Sony to only release its major titles on the PS3? The best interests of consumers is irrelevant. This is just business as usual. The EU regulators just seem like they want to draw attention themselves than actually do anything that matters.
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Nowadays, there are actually sites out there rating the quality of CAM releases.
...
A need existed and a business model appeared to fill that need.
I bet this is not the kind of "invisible hand of the market" that the industry lobbists have in mind when demanding less regulations
If it moves, tax it; if it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.
It is too bad that the winner will not be determined by the consumer. The victory could be through pricing, quality, useability ... whatever, but no, we will have the format decided through connections and power.
Beta was much clearer but was more expensive and had 5.5 hour tapes.
VHS ruled because 6 hour miniseries and price outweighed quality.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
Where blu-ray becomes red-ray...
and HD-DVD's become HHDDVVDBVD's.
Sarge is my HERO. RVB Forever!! http://roosterteeth.com/
I imagine this might in part have to do with the game market being still competitive of itself. As long as the sides managed to still have a reasonable amount of free market going on then everything is still ok enough to not need immediate intervention. Now if two of the console makers strong armed the third into doing what they wanted though..., now that would be really unfair and worthy of investigation, not?
Exactly. As much as I don't like Sony for their Rootkit, all I have to say about this is, don't waste my time until they find something. This there may be (insert problem/benefit) is getting real old.
Lets recap things we've heard, most from reliable news sources, that have not yet come true:
China is making cheap (choose your format) players for Walmart - Wake me up when it is finalized for the 12th time.
HDDVD uses a (choose your color from the rainbow) laser - ever read the tech specs before reporting?
HDDVD will have a 51 gig 3 layer disk - Where's the beef?
BR will have a 4 million layer disk in year 2112 - A passage to Bankok/Where's the more beef?
Bluray rot is disks - CD/DVD had the same problems, and it was one batch. If anything, bitch that it isn't a proven technology due to its age you ninnies.
Size is most important - where's that spam mail to increase girth that I just deleted
Sony, Toshiba, and Fisher Price are going to do a product Ménage à trois and create a Toshonistrux, a great HD media that you can add wheels and a cockpit and run around your living room with it making airplane noises while watching Transformer reruns.
Ok, I made the last one up, but you get my point.
OK, maybe I should have said 'downloads' not always illegal and not always crap quality.
There's always some 'clever' person who say ooooh subtitles, extras, blah, waffle -> you never thought of that! So? I don't need them. Therefore poor quality BT is ok. Hell, YouTube is OK too.
Mind you I live in the UK, so most films take 6 months to come out over here. 6 months is a long time to wait, especially when you could BT them in a few hours.
monk.e.boy
Open source, flash charts
United Kingdom != European Commision.
Secondly, where's the evidence to back up this serious allegation? Thirdly states that make up the EU are sovereign, if companies want to sell their products there they have to abide by the rules. If not, they can take their wares and go home.
I'm going to transform myself into a mighty hawk. Either that or I'll just go and work at Dixons, haven't decided yet.
No one gives a crap about which format does what better. Honestly, in the context of playing movies and whatnot it really doesn't matter. I'm a pretty techy guy and I couldn't tell someone the difference between the two other than Blu-ray has more capacity, which doesn't affect movies that much (maybe a two disc HD-DVD set is one disc on Blu-Ray?) The winner here will be hybrid makers, as it won't matter who puts what out on which disc, it will play them all.
These formats may merit investigation. On the other hand, I'm finding this trend a bit troubling. Now every time some industry agrees on a standard is the EU going to initiate investigations looking into so-called uncompetitive practices? And what exactly will they do if they deem that the companies in question to have engaged in such activities? Are we going to end up with products with no consistent standards merely to appease the EU?
As usual I'm left with the impression that the EU is doing nothing more than engaging in protectionism. European had no part in these formats and it doesn't sit well with them. We've got two distinct formats, backed by different companies, fighting for market dominance. There are plenty of technology companies in Europe. If the EU is concerned about foreign dominance in this market why don't they back the development of their own HD format?
If they're going to spend their resources investigating these new formats it should be directed towards DRM.
Wrong. The one that will win will be based on a different criteria.
HDV camcorders are dirt cheap now. The people buying these camcorders want to be able to send grandma a HD copy of little stevie banging his head on the concrete and trying to poke out the cat's eyes. Whatever format that makes this easy for Joe and Janet blow will win.
Right now Indie film makers are embracing the standard DVD players that support Divx 6 pro HD codecs. Giving you full 1080i HD pleasure on a standard DVD disc and on a player that costs around $99.00 and honestly does a fantastic job at it.
BluRay has no plans for supporting a consumer created Disk format. HDDVD can in theory be burned at home and played on standalone players but nobody has their hands on a HDDVD player yet to try it. All of these consortiums are intentionally ignoring the home and indie user and that is incredibly dangerous.
it leaves a giant window open for a 3rd party to come in and take control almost overnight from both of them. Free and open HDDVD standard with no royalties and high popularity? the studios would be all over it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
why would they need to bribe or strong arm when they own the studios?
Except that mastering a Blu-ray disc is no different and requires no additional effort to master an HD-DVD disc. When it comes to game consoles they are different architectures and require significantly more effort to produce for multiple platforms. Of course with that said it sounds like Sony should also be investigated. If Sony didn't pay them to be exclusive then perhaps they would have saw money in producing the games for multiple platforms.
When I invite peeps over to watch a movie, I want to make sure the movie is going to remain a consistent picture/sound quality, actually be the complete movie, without additions, etc, etc, etc. Sometimes it's just easier to pull a DVD off the shelf then try and find a suitable rip.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
I'd rather spend $9 on a movie [I buy them when they're in the bargain bins] than a day downloading a rip that MIGHT actually be done properly, only to find out I have to burn it to a disk to keep it [storing movies on a HD is annoying over the long run].
Tom aXXo.
We and Amazon are going to be publishing 1000 HD DVD indie movies via their Manufacture on Demand system.
Since HD DVD can be written on a DVD-5 or DVD-9 media for shorter content, doesn't require AACS for replicated content, and has cheaper and more readily available replication, it's proving to be a much more prosumer-friendly format for authoring.
My video compression blog
Why is this posted here when 99% of the people claim they will never own "DRM-infected" media?
Sure, if your definition of "dirt cheap" is ~$1000.
There were several high profile media stories about the protection that HD-DVD uses exclusively is cracked quickly and repeatedly ahead of key updates. The Blu-Ray camp has been touting BD+* for a while now, and naturally studios and distributors will be backing any chance they have of getting more money. Is it really more complicated than that?
* (a DRM scheme exclusive to Blu-Ray which relies on executable code that modifies the video stream to make it viewable. This is as opposed to the scheme HD-DVD uses which is passive and has more in common with CSS, the protection DVDs use.)
Twinstiq, game news
on standard DVD media...
you are. Rob has every right to report your IP address to the proper authorites to have you arrested. He should do just that, and you will be in prison for quite some time for threatening to crash a server and the lives of two people. Both of those are felonies and you will never hold a job other than ones that feature the line "Do you want fries with that?" at best. At worst you will never have a job again because a) no one will hire you or b)bubba will use you as his bitch and kill you afterwards. Either way is fine with me just as long as justice is served.
Right now Indie film makers are embracing the standard DVD players that support Divx 6 pro HD codecs. Giving you full 1080i HD pleasure on a standard DVD disc and on a player that costs around $99.00 and honestly does a fantastic job at it.
BluRay has no plans for supporting a consumer created Disk format. HDDVD can in theory be burned at home and played on standalone players but nobody has their hands on a HDDVD player yet to try it. All of these consortiums are intentionally ignoring the home and indie user and that is incredibly dangerous.
It truly saddens me that so much disinformation gets 5 points.
First of all, almost NONE of the DVD players that support Divx support Divx in HD. To imply otherwise is just wrong. There are a very few expensive ($200 US minimum) DVD/media players that support the format such as the Avel I-O Link Player and some Helios players, but ZERO players under $100 US that can play HD Divx files. Right now, you can count on one hand the number of standalone players that are even capable of playing the format.
Secondly, while you may not know anything about people with HD-DVD players burning and playing their own discs, people on the Doom9 forums have reported being able to burn HD-DVD format to burnable media (usually DVD-9 as HD-DVD media is very expensive) and play them back correctly on HD-DVD players. And there certainly are plans for BluRay to be supported as a consumer format. There are recorders available right now, but they are very expensive.
Yeah, they're ok...
What?
You are wrong!
Blu-ray allready has support for consumer created disks, and current players support it. The format is called BDMV and it is the standard BD filestructure burned on either a DVD or BD disks.
You can either burn BDAV (just audio video) og BDMV (with menus and such). Editing the latter is supported by major consumer packages like the ones from Ulead.
Given the news on slashdot yesterday that Universal was threatening to cancel its contract with Apple for iTunes, added to the fact that Universal is the ONLY big corrupt studio that support HD-DVD, plus a final dash of Microsoft who have lots of money invested in HD-DVD in the XBox 360 and in their piece of shit Zune, it looks like another blow has been struck against a true free market by the people who think bribery is a technicality.
(I'm a different AC)
Anyway, just look at sales. BRD is outselling HDDVD by 2:1. I wouldn't say that it "won" but it looks like it's going to win, especially with more and more corporate adoption (e.g. Blockbuster). We will just have to sit on this one a little longer and wait. As far as no one caring, well, it's just a movie format. I don't care which one wins simply because I lack a HDTV and a player capable of outputting 1080p. I feel that, right now, most people are in the same boat as I. This conversation will be more relevant in a year or so when people shell out money for fancier TVs and fancier media players.
I, for one, think this article is moot because it doesn't mention the iPhone.
When they're legal, they're called consortiums.
Off-topic for the thread, but right on for some of the replies. How about offer the movie, all relates menus, bonus features, etc... available in uncompressed HD quality for the consumer to purchase and download. Make it a single, self extracting file to keep things simple. That way they can burn it to whatever blank HD media they desire (or leave it on their HDD). Mandate hybrid players, that are upgradeable, so that if a new HD format ever emerges their old unit can be flashed to support it. Possibly make them with easily upgraded lasers as well, in case a different wave-length is required to read the new format. Problem solved. That way the consumer and the consumer alone determines which format wins. If not that, then just mandate the hybrid players. I know mandates are anti free market, but it's best for the consumer.
How much space is on these? 50GB? 80? So the movies are 4x the size per picture. That takes us to 16-24GB. But then the compression algorithm is much better, so that size comes down again. What? 12-18GB?
So which one will this fit on...?
Ooh, both!
So maybe it's the algorithm used to save it. Oh, both allow the same bitstream format. And even if they did not, they don't have to "port" the video to the new format, like you do when porting a program from a DS to a PS3. You have the same instruction set (one computer with the same input producing the different format outputs).
So what was your point again?
hey dude, I'm with you. I don't do this for the karma, it just comes to me.
Also, it's "insightful". I know it's a hard word, but it's written on the damn page already ffs.
+5, Truth
Actually, it does take additional effort since HD-DVD and Blu-ray use different programming languages for all the menu controls and such.
"Count me as one of those people who won't own an HD set until he's forced to. I just spent $400 on a 32" CRT TV, and I'm not about to go out and spend $700+ on a similarly sized HDTV. I don't watch sports or movies all that often, so what will this get me? My wife will be able to see every pore on the face of some reality TV tramp? I'll be able to make out the birthmark on Katie Sackhoff's shoulder? It doesn't add to the plot or production quality, and can often get in the way of it."
So you're completely, irrevocably NOT a part of the target audience. That's nice.
The task the manufacturers have is not to convince you, the video luddite, that bigger and better is worth your dollar. It's to convince the people who are predisposed to liking bigger, clearer screens that their product is the one to pick. And most people, if given the choice, would rather watch movies and sports on bigger, clearer screens.
"Let me put it this way: Until HDTV gives me something other than sub-microscopic picture quality, there's nothing I can't get from it that I can get from my video iPod."
Well, what exactly would you want from an audio/video technology other than better quality? It's not gonna take your dog to the vet, do the grocery shopping for the wife, or service you sexually. Do you put off buying a good chair until chairs are developed that have the ability to act as alarm systems for your home? Probably not. It's job is to be a chair. And the job of HDTV is to increase the clarity and your video experience.
Additional effort is not the same as compatible. A game for the Wii or PC cannot work on the PS3 without reprogramming the entire architecture, its like trying to make a car go on rocketfuel.Sure it is possible and it is not being controlled by signed agreements between companies.
In this case the studios only allow their material on one disc even though it works just fine on HD-DVD too just that the companies does not want it to happen. That is anti-competitive behavior, see the difference?
Easier? Many of the consumers who would get conned are unlikely to be aware of the regulations, so they're just as easy to lure as before, from the point of view of the individual, except there's an organization that breathes down your neck if you do con people. Sounds more difficult to me... or perhaps I've been lured into a false sense of security?
True confidence comes not from realising you are as good as your peers, but that your peers are as bad as you are.
Ceci n'est pas une sig.
Computer guys: BD 25/50 gigs > 15/30gigs for HDDVD
Movie guys: Sony aka Sony Pictures, Columbia, Tristar, MGM, ALL EXCLUSIVE Blu-Ray...so that leaves dualformat or BD...unless you're gonna just not watch a huge portion of the movies in HD
Also, Disney, Fox, Sony, Lionsgate are exclusively only blu-ray too at the moment
Units Sold: ~300k HDDVD Players, ~2M+ Blu-ray (yes this includes PS3's)
At this moment in time, I would say its a no-brainer to go with blu-ray. I've also noticed at Fry's dozens of choices for BD media and NO HD-DVDR at all...
Yes, but again, it DOES take extra effort to make it work on both formats. This isn't the beta/VHS era anymore where you could simply copy, that's won't work between these two as they use different languages, and you need to reprogram the control layer (this is the additional effort part) for it to work on the other disc type. The level of extra effort isn't the same as a PC to PS3 port of a game, sure, but it is still extra effort.
Tiger Direct has a $400 special on a 32 inch wide screen LCD. ATSC tuner. 720p. HDMI, component video, etc. Weight 57 pounds.Niko SV3206 32" LCD HDTV Television
Your hernia-in-a-box CRT will need a converter for broadcast reception in two years. You paid $400 for 4:3 video and analog audio and you call this a bargain?
It doesn't add to the plot or production quality, and can often get in the way of it.
The answer in one word: Ratatouille.
CRTs can be surprisingly good for watching HD on your computer. The DRM is designed to prevent you from viewing full HD on a VGA connection, however its usually not hard to make *ahem* a DRM free version of the video. Even a 5 year old 19" CRT can do up to 2048 x 1536 @ 61Hz. (1536p!?)
That's hit the spot. Some of the insight I was hoping for. Why are people so annoyed about an investigation? It may find that nothing has been done wrong.
All the "the EU is attacking our beloved movie studios" posts didn't seem to understand that a barrier to entry is anti-competitive. If a small (in this case European) company wants to come along and start to produce content for the media (lets say the BBC). How easy will it be to do? If the HD/Blu-Ray groups make it too prohibitive by acting together as an effective monopoly on the media (a cartel?) - then the commission has a case, the EU is acting now BEFORE the formats become standard, but all they are doing at the moment is asking the question.
If this were really happening, what would you think?
Sorry, I'm about to rant. The parent has no idea what is available: I have a Toshiba HD DVD player (had it for OVER A YEAR). I also have an HD camcorder (had it for OVER A YEAR). I also have an Apple (FOR OVER A YEAR). Guess what? I record movies on the camcord, make HD DVDs on the apple, and play them on the HD DVD player. BlurRy can't do this yet, but it's been working great for me with HD DVD for OVER A YEAR.
I think it'd be best for the consumer if one of the standards dies as soon as possible. given the number of players sold and the number of studios backing the format, it should be HD-DVD who dies. otherwise we'll have to buy hybrid players that would allow us show the movies regardless of the format used.
European Commission is willing to create a competition between formats, which will create more diversity, which is no good for the consumers.
p.s. afaik, VHS won over Betacam because the porn industry chose VHS over Betacam.
It saddens me that you got modded +4 for your disinformation trying to debunk lumpy.
The Linktheater PC-3LWG is Buffalo's new high definition wireless media player. This DivX Certified HD media player with progressive scan lets users add HD and networking capabilities to their home entertainment centers.
In fact just go to http://www.divx.com/products/hw/browse.php?c=1 and browse the selection of Divx ultra certified players many of them are HD capable unlike your disinformation post implies.
I got my Buffalo Linktheater for $109.00 each 4 months ago. I bought 4 of them so I could give some to family and they can watch HD content of the kids. I guess the devices I have simply dont exist then eh?
nor do the tons of people on the doom9 forums that have them as well. (region free hacks are already being released for it.)
If the EU wants to regulate something like this i suggest they invent there own formats and develop there own Hollywood. The deal was made in the US and the standards bodies for these formats are also in the US. They just wanna feel important when there not.