Too Human's Absence From E3, Silicon Knights Suit

GameDaily points out something I didn't even notice: Too Human wasn't at E3 this year. Denis Dyack's histrionics in the year since the game's terrible E3 2006 showing may have had something to do with that. According to the site, Dyack said: "We made the decision not to show Too Human at the press conference some time ago. The reason for this decision was that we have another event planned in the future for Too Human that we thought would be more appropriate ... Not attending the show and setting appointments with the press was due to Silicon Knights being extremely busy finalizing the game and we simply could not spare the time." Of course, today's announcement of a pending lawsuit between Silicon Knights and Epic may have something to do with it as well. Too Human is using Epic's Unreal engine to get the job done ... perhaps they've run into a snag?

Comments

Welp.

[!ramirez]

This was one of the more unique games coming out for the 360. Guess I'll be waiting a while longer before getting one.

Re:Welp.

[KDR_11k]

Too Human is the console equivalent of Duke Nukem Forever, I recall people fawning over it in the early days of the Gamecube and at that point it was already in development for several years. It's constantly getting delayed, changing engines, etc. Apparently they're changing engines again now, they're going to write their own (says so in the lawsuit explaination part of TFA).

Weird

[Loadmaster]

There is a Too Human trailer on Xbox Live in the E3 2007 category. Still there as of right now if anyone is interested. Looks ok.

Swi

Re:Crappy Engine - Not Surprised

[RamblinLonghorn]

Yeah, that's the last thing the console market needs, another multi-platinum, critically acclaimed game. And don't forget to mention something about dedicated servers in your next post, you forgot this time.

Second most delayed game ever?

[Cleon I]

Too Human... one of the few games that rivals Duke Nukem Forever for "most delayed game ever." It was originally announced in 1999 as a PSX game (that's the original Playstation, not PS2), but was delayed and moved to the Gamecube after Silicon Knights partnered with Nintendo. It was put on the back burner in favor of Eternal Darkness and Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes, and now it seems like they're actually going to try to get it out for the 360. That means that this game has been in development for three generations of consoles, on three different platforms made by three different companies.

Re:Second most delayed game ever?

[Anonymous Coward]

Denis Dyack has stated that Too Human has actually been in development since before Blood Omen: Legacy of Kane. In fact, the Soul Reaver was originally a Too Human weapon that was moved over to Blood Omen early in its development. So that means Too Human has been in development since at LEAST 1996. 11 years, one year longer than DNF.

Re:Second most delayed game ever?

[mocheeze]

Actually Too Human wasn't in development for GameCube (aside from some alpha builds meant to test the hardware). It was in development for PSX until Nintendo contracted them as a 2nd party, then for Xbox 360 when SK split from Nintendo. And by being "made by different companies" I guess you're just looking for a stronger way of saying they went with a different publisher this time around (which would make sense, since MGM doesn't do publishing anymore for videogames).

Re:Second most delayed game ever?

[Anonymous Coward]

It was in development for PSX until Nintendo contracted them as a 2nd party

And? What was it in development for between the time they joined with Nintendo and the time they left? The Dreamcast?

And by being "made by different companies" I guess you're just looking for a stronger way of saying they went with a different publisher this time around

I read it as the consoles all being made by different companies.

Re:Second most delayed game ever?

[Cleon I]

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I remember it was one of the first games announced for the GC when the GC itself was unveiled, and they showed a short video clip that didn't reveal any gameplay. I don't know if that constitutes "development" but it was certainly announced as a Gamecube game.

Re:Second most delayed game ever?

[mocheeze]

It wasn't in development at all during the time they were with Nintendo, just the alpha stuff that they recycled into Eternal Darkness's engine. Development for Too Human didn't resume until after SK had lined up a publisher for it after they left Nintendo.

Unreal Engine is garbage

[spatula_city]

It's great for prototyping, but try and ship a game with it and you're doomed.

How is anyone supposed to complete a game when they have to continually accept code drops from Epic. Nobody gets any warning what they're going to change. If you ask them to include a feature your game needs, they won't do it unless they need it for their own game.

Midway? You guys are in serious trouble because you signed up with Epic.
NCSoft - Didn't you guys learn anything from Lineage 2? You had to rewrite most of the engine!
SquareSoft / EA / SOE / etc... Aren't you guys paying attention to all the lawsuits against Epic? Doesn't that tell you something?

Duke Nukem forever might have actually shipped by now if it wasn't using UE....

Their idea of support is a web based message board where you're relying on the other poor suckers that licensed the engine to help you fix your problems.

Re:Unreal Engine is garbage

[Anonymous Coward]

Duke Nukem forever might have actually shipped by now if it wasn't using UE....

They should have gone with the Quake 2 engine...

At this point, who cares?

[CBlend]

I remember being interested in this game years ago, but since it's been so long, and the plan is to (maybe) release it on a console that's breaking down so much that Microsoft had to spend a million to deal with replacements, I think I'll pass. *Returns to playing Wii*

Lawsuit

[im_thatoneguy]

Silicon Knight's primary accusations against Epic Games are:

- Late delivery of Engine code. (Breach of contract.)
- Withholding engine code under the guise of it being game specific (aka Gears of War source code).
- Deliberately withholding code in order to comparatively showcase in-house games.
- Lack of promised documentation and technical consultation.

Also it appears that Epic might be claiming Silicon Knight's new in house game engine as Unreal 3 code. Or at least Silicon Knights is taking preemptive action to ensure that doesn't happen.

What Silicon Knights wants out the lawsuit:

- To be released from their contract with Epic Games.
- For a full refund.
and recognition that their in house engine is the sole property of Silicon Knights and not Epic Games.

Source:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?st ory=14759

Re:Lawsuit

[Panzergheist]

They want a bit more than that. They also want

- All profits from the sale of Gears of War
- Unlimited license to modify UE3 in any way they want.

We'll see how this turns out, but it's bad news no matter what happens.

Re:Lawsuit

[Anonymous Coward]

There are a few things that should be mentioned here, not the least of which is that SK is looking for a lot more than just re-payment for their licencing fees.

One: Middleware (and just about any production software) is constantly in a state of flux, and there is never a "final" version of it. People who licence the Unreal Engine technologies are given secure access to Epic's CVS repository, where daily engine builds and patches can be checked out for use by the game developers. SK's claim that they didn't have access to a "finished" version is a load of bunk.

Two: the Engine framework is delivered "as is". It is up to the game developer to modify the engine to suit that particular game's needs, not Epic. If the developers at SK are incapable of programming the engine to suit their needs, that is their problem, not Epics. SK started receiving alpha versions of the engine right after the first X360 dev kits went out and they have access to the CVS like everyone else. The fault is with SK, not Epic.

Three: if you read up on it you will find that SK is looking to claim that all of the modification work that they are doing on the game constitutes an "entirely new engine" and that they should retain all rights to it. In other words, they want the benefits of using UE3 technology without having to pay for it.

Four: SK is seeking damages - they want the complete profits from Gears of War. Think about that for a minute. Here's the relevant part:

The document then asks that "The Court award damages to Silicon Knights in an amount proved at trial for the damages as set forth above", and that "Epic be required to disgorge all profits obtained on its Gears of War game as a result of the misconduct set forth above." This is a straight-up scam to get money, period.

Five: Epic has licenced its technology to a rather vast collection of developers, including some of the biggest in the business. No one else has complained, just Silicon Knights - a company that has been pushing Too Human (the title in question) since 1999 (when it was being developed for the Gamecube). Think about that - a company that has been making the same title for 8 years suddenly decides to launch a lawsuit when they find themselves unable to show the goods at E3. At least 3DRealms isn't making grandiose claims about Duke Nukem Forever all the time...

Six: Epic has a long history of supporting developers, from the corporate level all the way down to the hobbyist modder at home. Epic provides tools and help free of charge to anyone who wants them. If SK gets their way, this could have severe ramifications for the entire gaming industry and engine middleware licencing in general.

SK Business Plan
1). Licence middleware engine 6 years after beginning development. Have incompetent programmers who cannot understand simple instructions program the game.
2). Show off screenshots, brag - and then fail to deliver goods at E3.
3). Blame middleware provider for own problems.
4). ???
5). Profit.

Re:Crappy Engine - Not Surprised

[atomicstrawberry]

You mean 'just look at Gears of War' because that seems to be your entire basis for your argument.

To date, as far as I'm aware only three games have shipped using UE3:
- Gears of War
- Rainbow Six: Vegas
- Roboblitz (Xbox Live Arcade game)

Only one of these games features "inane looking bald space marines".

If we look at the near future there's a pile of UE3 games releasing, for example
- Stranglehold
- Bioshock
- Blacksite: Area 51
- Fury
- Huxley
- Lost Odyssey
- Mass Effect
- Medal of Honor: Airborne
- Undertow
- Unreal Tournament 3

Of those, only UT3, Huxley and maybe Mass Effect and Blacksite are likely to have "inane looking bald space marines". Now, you might have tried a better troll, maybe pointing out that UE3 seems to be mainly used for FPS, but I think the list above (which features two single-player RPGs, one MMORPG and two third-person action games) seems to run contrary to that.

And even if every UE3 game featured "inane looking bald space marines" that would hardly be a reflection on the engine. It wouldn't be Epic's fault if every developer using the engine was so lacking in creativity that they only made bald space marines. That would actually be a reflection of a much greater malaise in the industry in general. So it's just as well that your assertion is crap.

Lawsuit...or is it..

[GweeDo]

Or is it that Denis Dydack had his balls handed to him last e3 with the horrible Too Human demo they showed off. Post e3 he want off one a crazy tangent saying he didn't want to ever show un-finished games to reviewers again, because they might be mean to him again.

If you heard his interview on one of the EGM podcasts (I think it was EGM atleast) he was acting like a 4 year old that was told his crayon drawing sucked.

They probably didn't want to have the press give people more reasons to not be interested in Too Human.

Re:Lawsuit...or is it..

[rav64]

My thoughts exactly.

This just comes of as bad for the company, and him especially. I was somewhat interested in what they had going about a year ago.. then when he started bitching about how the demo hadn't been properly optimized or whatever I started loosing interest. This latest charade is just the nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned, he just comes of as someone who is desperate to try and redeem something that hadn't been a big deal in the first place, had they just kept on working and then released the god damned thing.

Someone mentioned DNF and I'm starting to agree, this game has vaporware written all over it. And since it's a promised trilogy it doesn't exactly help. I'd be surprised if this game even registers as a blip if it ever comes out at all. You heard it here first (hopefully).

Re:Crappy Engine - Not Surprised

[im_thatoneguy]

Also Destroy All Humans is UE3 and it's a large sandbox game. You can add that to the list.

However, you can also look to the news and see that several games have been "indefinitely delayed" for the PS3 due to a lack of a functioning PS3 Engine.

Re:Crappy Engine - Not Surprised

[Psiven]

Also Monster Madness uses the UE3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monster_Madness:_Batt le_for_Suburbia