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The Science of Bridge Collapse Prevention

toddatcw writes "In the wake of the Minneapolis Interstate 35W bridge collapse this week, Computerworld investigates ongoing research which could someday help to prevent future disasters. Acoustic emissions detection systems, which listen for the sounds of metal snapping on structures, are already sold and fitted. Likewise, a new generation of detector systems that monitor for tilting of bridge columns and piers are being designed, prototyped, and researched. 'Sound waves move more efficiently through solid objects than through air, making any sounds easier to listen out for, Tamutus said. "It's not amazing. It's simple. Doctors use stethoscopes all the time. If you put your ear on a train track, you can hear a train approaching from far away... The Sensor Highway II systems, which are portable and can be moved from bridge to bridge as needed, usually cost between $20,000 to several hundred thousand dollars each. Typically, evaluations take between one day and a week.'"

276 comments

  1. Barriers/Lights by Archades54 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Would this system also have a feature to alert the local road authority, or in a worst case scenario close the bridge?

    --
    If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    1. Re:Barriers/Lights by choongiri · · Score: 3, Informative

      Meanwhile, engineering research projects, including one at the University of Missouri-Columbia, were already under way long before this week's bridge collapse to advance the science of bridge monitoring. At the school, work is being done on a large-scale sensor system that would be fastened to several concrete bridge piers below a span to alert officials about even the slightest tilting or swaying of critical piers supporting a bridge.
    2. Re:Barriers/Lights by igny · · Score: 3, Funny

      In the worst case scenario, the bridge closes itself.

      --
      In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    3. Re:Barriers/Lights by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Would this system also have a feature to alert the local road authority, or in a worst case scenario close the bridge?

      It was already there, but no one was listening. How do you solve that?

    4. Re:Barriers/Lights by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      alert officials about even the slightest tilting or swaying of critical piers supporting a bridge.

      So was not this bridge already warned to politicians that it needed work? Do we need a 5000 DB whistle to make them wake up? The writing was on the wall.

      We will as a human race either evolve to vote past voting for hype turkey ass kissing politicians or someday they will foobar us all real big. Fortunately it was less than 30. Could have been worse. Happens in Canada, or shall I say Quebec too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge

    5. Re:Barriers/Lights by donaldm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Taking into account all the factors that can cause a disaster is just about impossible. While it is possible to design something that is nearly disaster proof it can't be done with 100% confidence, because there are things that can occur that can be outside of the original design plan. Two simple examples are designing for a category 4 hurricane and then getting hit with a category 6 or designing for a richtor 5 earthquake and then getting hit with a richtor 7 earthquake.

      All that can be done is to have a flexible disaster prevention (eg. periodic bridge checks which actually were done) and a rescue program in place which from what I read about was quite good although to some who lost friends and relatives maybe not good enough. I would leave that to the investigation committee to comment on this.

      The problem with any disaster is it normally happens with little or no warning and sometimes so quickly people just cannot get out of the way. The question of "it could have been prevented" is rather mute after it has happened.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    6. Re:Barriers/Lights by donaldm · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately in the worst case scenario the bridge did close itself but it did it in a manner that caused people on the bridge to die. People who were lucky not to be on the bridge at the time of the collapse were safe although I would be quite sure they would be shocked. Even if the bridge had gates and they operated it would not help the people who were already on the bridge.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    7. Re:Barriers/Lights by donaldm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes you can get sensors that will detect the slightest tilting or swaying of critical piers but the problem is that many bridges are designed to tilt and sway to a certain tolerance otherwise a ridged bridge would just crack under a small tremor or ever a surge of water. You would have to have sensors like this on all bridges and take into account the design tolerances of the bridge. You could do this cheaply in a country that has only a few bridges but when you have thousands of major bridges this is going to get expensive and you also have to take into account false alarms.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    8. Re:Barriers/Lights by cheater512 · · Score: 1

      But nothing can stop a total existence failure. ;)

    9. Re:Barriers/Lights by Archades54 · · Score: 1

      a sign saying DANGER GET OFF may have saved a few though.

      --
      If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    10. Re:Barriers/Lights by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sll=44.9785,-93.26 529&ll=44.978895,-93.244891&t=h&z=19&iwloc=addr&om =1

      A 200 metros están las compuertas del flujo de agua, hay remaches en el cuarto carril de 8 y las noticias no dicen nada de esto.

    11. Re:Barriers/Lights by pimpimpim · · Score: 1

      Yes but will it also be able to have them put enough money and urgency in the project? Why do bridges in the 'western world' hardly collaps in this day and age? Because most governments there have healthy plans to check on the quality of these things, learning from earlier mistakes. Then again, the money has to come from somewhere and at some point the government should decide if they spend their money for military attacks on random countries and nationwide public surveillance, or on the health and safety of their own population. Damn that is a difficult decision!

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    12. Re:Barriers/Lights by panopticonisi · · Score: 0

      It'll probably alert FEMA so they can wait around for a week and eventually get to it. :/

    13. Re:Barriers/Lights by thegnu · · Score: 1

      You would have to have sensors like this on all bridges and take into account the design tolerances of the bridge
      It's even more expensive, I imagine, to clear out all the cars. Plus, it'll be paid for by whoever owns the road, I suppose, be it the municipality or the federal govt. And I imagine that one would prioritize according to traffic, and frankly, how likely the stupid thing is to collapse with little to no warning.

      Plus, from TF summary, the things detect rebar snapping, and all sorts of things. So it probably creates a composite picture, and doesn't just go off whenever you smoke weed like those goddamn smoke alarms. :-)

      --
      Please stop stalking me, bro.
    14. Re:Barriers/Lights by Hubbell · · Score: 1

      Never had weed set off a smoke alarm. I didn't even know the smoke alarm in my room was on until one day my friend and I were smoking a blunt and the room was baked as fuck and I noticed a light flashing every 15-20 seconds out of the corner of my eye and was like WTF THAT THING IS ON!?!?!?

    15. Re:Barriers/Lights by thegnu · · Score: 1

      So was it a silent smoke detector, or were you THAT stoned?

      I actually had smoke from burning sage set off a smoke alarm after I had gone to sleep. I woke up to this loud, infernal solid whine, found the alarm, pressed the button, it didn't turn off, tore it off the wall and tried to pry it open, threw it across the room, cartoon-style jumping up and down stomped on it, failed at taking the battery cover off, tore it in half, yanked out the battery, realized I had just demolished the wrong smoke detector, genuinely whimpered, ran towards where the hell the sound must have been coming from, found the actual smoke detector, and repeated.

      Boy was it nice when that fucking thing turned off. :-)

      --
      Please stop stalking me, bro.
    16. Re:Barriers/Lights by Hubbell · · Score: 1

      Hahahaha
      I did that once when my sister burnt a cake she was baking or some shit (yes, she fails as a woman) and it made me feel so good inside when that horrid noise stopped.

    17. Re:Barriers/Lights by outlineblue · · Score: 1

      Comparing the collapse of a bridge during construction and the collapse of a bridge after 40 years of operation isn't quite the same thing.

    18. Re:Barriers/Lights by necro81 · · Score: 1

      a sign saying DANGER GET OFF may have saved a few though
      Not likely. The bridge was bumper-to-bumper standstill traffic at the time, and the bridge was over 300 m across. Even if an alarm had been sounded, signalling imminent danger, it's not like the cars could have gone anywhere, nor could people have run very far, before calamity struck.
    19. Re:Barriers/Lights by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 1

      It turns out that for acoustic emission, you can luck out sometimes so that one type of damage behaves differently than another, or in the way noise behaves. Usually if you compare signal amplitude, duration, frequency, etc., you can make an educated guess as to what's going on.

    20. Re:Barriers/Lights by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 1

      Usually-normally you'd pair it with an embedded cell modem, and call it in.

    21. Re:Barriers/Lights by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 1

      Disclaimer: I'm involved in the R&D of a similar system (uninformative pic here). At least it runs Linux though. :)

      That's usually the biggest expense for these systems. It's actually pretty easy to put together the data acquisition side of things-you just need a couple of ultrasonic sensors, storage, and a good A/D board. The hard part is in the data analysis. The way it's normally done now, you acquire reams of data and a PhD. pores over it and pronounces judgement.

      Once you get to know a structure a little better though, you can automate a lot of this and this really helps drop the false alarm rate. Problem is, it takes a while to build a big enough library of data, and funding is scarce.

    22. Re:Barriers/Lights by C0rinthian · · Score: 1
      From TFA

      Minnesota Department of Transportation officials could not be reached this morning to determine if any such systems were in use on the collapsed bridge or on any other spans in the state. So where do you get your info from?
    23. Re:Barriers/Lights by Archades54 · · Score: 1

      1 is better than none for survivors :P

      --
      If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
    24. Re:Barriers/Lights by vertinox · · Score: 1

      Two simple examples are designing for a category 4 hurricane and then getting hit with a category 6 or designing for a richtor 5 earthquake and then getting hit with a richtor 7 earthquake.

      Why not just plan for the worst case scenario of the sun exploding and call it a day?

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    25. Re:Barriers/Lights by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the engineers thought of that and put in a trigger level above normal swaying.

    26. Re:Barriers/Lights by pops55 · · Score: 1

      And I had my bags packed to move to Canada so I could have safe bridges...oh well

    27. Re:Barriers/Lights by alienmole · · Score: 1

      Happens in Canada, or shall I say Quebec too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_Bridge
      That bridge didn't collapse, it surrendered!

      But seriously, that was in 1907. Not quite the same thing! Engineering and other knowledge has improved dramatically since then. These days, the CAD programs they use would warn about the overloading that caused the collapse, and the bridge would never have been built the way it originally was.

      The Tacoma Narrows bridge in Washington collapsed in 1940. That was partly due to resonance, which they know how to guard against these days. Since that time, excuses for bridge collapses, other than major earthquakes, have pretty much evaporated. All that's left is incompetence and/or wilful neglect.

    28. Re:Barriers/Lights by trennor · · Score: 1

      I often wonder why someone has to die, or a great (unatural) disaster has to occur before anyone, professional or politician, ever does something. Why all of the training, the years in college and university, not say on-the-job experience, under which someone goes, and we _still_ are never proactive in these kinds of situations. It's almost as if the mindset is, "Well, nothing's happened YET!" But when it does, there seems to be no end of finger-pointing (and ducking said fingers) instead of the question which needed to be asked: "Why didn't someone foresee this, and at least _try_ to do something about it, _before_ all these people died or were hurt?!" Makes a lot of sense to me!

    29. Re:Barriers/Lights by wyohman · · Score: 1

      Have we become so risk averse that we don't understand that living has inherent risk? Do we not understand that if we had unlimited resources we'd be able to create solutions for every possible problem and therefore tragedy would never strike anywhere?

  2. Easiest solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    instead of steel, harness the power of Cory Doctorow's ego.

    1. Re:Easiest solution by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 1

      If you were a PhD, you know you would be a total dick about it too. I know I would!

      --
      The game.
    2. Re:Easiest solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...that's "Dr. Dick" to you!

  3. Political by sugarmotor · · Score: 1

    Is it not the easiest just to elect people who take care of things?

    At least from what I heared there are a lot of bridges in similar shape, but there's not much done about it.

    -- Stephan

    --
    http://stephan.sugarmotor.org
    1. Re:Political by Kagura · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, it didn't take long before a government contractor came up with a fool-proof way to secure government funds. Er, I mean, to prevent future incidents...

      Look at me, I'm cynical tonight. :)

    2. Re:Political by ktappe · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is it not the easiest just to elect people who take care of things?
      If history is any judge, no, it apparently is not easy at all for the voting public to do that.
      --
      "We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
    3. Re:Political by xjlm · · Score: 1

      It should be obvious to anyone paying attention that our government here in the US does not represent US citizens, but large corporations and foreign nationals who can donate large campaign contributions (and other, more subtle forms of graft).

      --
      The Tea Party is just the GOP with a bag over its head.
    4. Re:Political by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You mean like someone who would say "we need to raise taxes on, let's say, the wealthy (because they can afford it more readily) to fund infrastructure improvements across the country. Besides fixing all the aging infrastructure from the time when public works was still consider part of a great society, it will add hundreds of thousands of American jobs."

      It's called a traditional Democrat. They exist. Find one and vote for them, if that's what you prefer.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:Political by Eunuchswear · · Score: 1

      So, a guy comes along and says - "Vote for me and I'll put your taxes up".

      What do you do?

      --
      Watch this Heartland Institute video
    6. Re:Political by rbannon · · Score: 1

      What if this bridge was privately owned, don't you think that the State would have taken this poorly maintained bridge from the hapless owner and then resell it to a more responsible owner. Just take a quick look around you, I can almost always identify privately held properties from State owned properties . . . you can too!

      Yes, we're well beyond correcting our problems via voting, but when will we all realize that this is our own fault for trusting the "benevolence" of government, versus the "greed" of free enterprise.

    7. Re:Political by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      Yeah right, chuckle head, slum landlords don't exist, of course you shouldn't look at the slum, you meant to worship greed at the mansion. In fact private business will seek to extract as much profit as possible and get away with providing the least amount possible and endeavour to fund laws so that they in fact can get away with murder.

      The failures have largely been as a result of governments that delight if running down government departments they are meant to be looking after, in stuffing them full of political appointees, and completely ignoring the advice of the last remaining diligent government employees, whilst simultaneously seeking to privatise everything, not so that it will run better just so that the politician will get their kick back.

      Any major infrastructure failure like this and just a sure sign of corruption, a third world infrastructure created by a government dominated by private/corporate interests, if it serves the rich and greedy it is in, if it serves the ignorant masses it is out.

      You want to know how poorly your privatised corporate government functions, just wait to see how many people are prosecuted and imprisoned for gross negligence. The whole silliness of automated warning systems, why bother when it is currently inevitable that they would be ignored and/or overridden, apart from of course extracting hundreds of millions of dollars from the public purse in having them installed.

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
    8. Re:Political by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Yes, but ideally that's how it's supposed to work. The best way to make sure something gets done is to make sure someone profits from it. If you can somehow make it profitable to save people's lives, a lot of lives will be saved. Gotta love profit motive...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    9. Re:Political by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't realize that Minnesota was a hard core Republican state. Thanks for the info.

    10. Re:Political by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's amazing how Republican tell us how governments never work, and then constantly prove it whenever they're in charge.

      The problem here is that the Republican governor, in his absurd attempt to slash taxes, vetoed transportation funding bills so the bridge didn't get repaired.

      This isn't the fault of 'the government'. It's the fault of the people who want to make the government so small they can drown in in the bathtub, and have actually managed to accomplish the first part of that. And you know what they say: You can't drown a government in a bathtub without drowning a few people in a river. (That shall be my new sig.)

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    11. Re:Political by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it not the easiest just to elect people who take care of things?

      If history is any judge, no, it apparently is not easy at all for the voting public to do that.

      Because no one gets an "attaboy" for doing maintenance so well that nothing happens. Now if they wait for a failure, then blame their enemy, they might be rewarded. Unfortunately, people who can pull that off are not usually the ones who do good maintenance.
  4. The bigger problem by weak* · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It was known well before the collapse that the bridge was in need of repairs. It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction. New techniques to detect a heightened probability of failure are useful only if someone acts on the information once it is available.

    --
    The Schwartz space ain't from Spaceballs.
    1. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
      It was rated 'structurally deficient':

      The Minneapolis bridge's deck, or driving surface, was rated in "fair condition." The superstructure was in "poor condition," and the substructure in "satisfactory condition." It looks like the 'satisfactory' substructure is what failed. Repairs to the driving surface and the trivial superstructure were ongoing. There was no indication from inspections that the substructure was in need of immediate repairs.

      The classification of structurally deficient means that either the surface, the superstructure, or the substructure was rated poor. In this case it was the superstructure which for this particular bridge did not provide support. A little bit of repairs to the superstructure and this bridge would have been cleared of its structurally deficient rating.
    2. Re:The bigger problem by GIL_Dude · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Get elected, then just try raising taxes to pay for something that might happen someday. Or, try to re-allocate funds from some bleeding heart program and see how far you get. People in general are not willing to fund repairs for things that might happen. It reminds me somehow of the little guy "Short Round" in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom jumping up and down on the footbridge yelling "strong bridge, see, strong bridge" just before starting to fall through the bridge. Obviously this is NOT FUNNY that this happened, but it just shows how people always want to think everything is fine right up until the time that it isn't fine.

    3. Re:The bigger problem by JonathanR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      )
      Get elected, then just try raising taxes to pay for something that might happen someday. Terrorism?
    4. Re:The bigger problem by plunge · · Score: 1

      Americans like feeling heroic. Preventing tragedy isn't very telegenic or interesting. But letting things to go shit makes for damn good tv!

    5. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was known well before the collapse that the bridge was in need of repairs. It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction. The problem here is that "in need of repairs" is not at all the same as "about to collapse", no matter what you may hear in the media.

      Anyway, it's hilarious to hear software geeks of all people talking about reliability.

      If bridges crashed as often as computers do, we'd probably all be caulking up our cars and floating them to the other side whenever we wanted to cross a river.
    6. Re:The bigger problem by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, people were actually busy doing repairs when the bridge collapsed. It is possible that the hammering of the repair activities contributed to or hastened the collapse.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    7. Re:The bigger problem by penix1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction.


      No it isn't...

      This may seem callous and cold in the wake of this incident but in fact it is cheaper (hence "better") for the state to react sometimes than to mitigate a hazard. It is simple economics. The federal cost share is 75% federal, 25% state. In catastrophic events, that split drops to 90 / 10, or at the discretion of Congress, 100% federal (Katrina is 100% federal). If the hazard you are attempting to mitigate would cost more than if it fails, then it is cheaper to let it fail. Of course, you run the risk to life and property when you do this so it is a huge gamble.

      States are cash strapped with the thousands of "unfunded mandates" the federal government places on them. Everybody want services but don't want to pay for them in higher taxes. Then you get pandering politicians running on "lower taxes" campaigns further reducing a states ability to operate properly. It is a wonder it took this long for something to happen.
      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    8. Re:The bigger problem by ScentCone · · Score: 1

      Terrorism?

      Which... actually HAS happened. Just like bridge collapses have happened. The difference is that there isn't so much malice involved in structural failure by way of aging infrastructure (as opposed to, say, flying airplanes into buildings or driving truck bombs up to otherwise perfectly fine structures).

      Bridges don't routinely pronouce their desire to alter your culture and spread Bridgelam by way of killing themselves. I think what we really need here is a sense of specifically which of the 70,000 bridges that have been labeled "deficient" are "actually ready to fall down."

      --
      Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
    9. Re:The bigger problem by TapeCutter · · Score: 1

      Heh, over here in Australia most of the news stories mentioned it was not terrorisim in the first paragraph.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    10. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not leaving it to market economy to channel the project funds to company executives wouldn't be such a bad idea.

    11. Re:The bigger problem by cheater512 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They were repaving it. Not doing structural repairs.
      The media likes the hype of saying 'it was under repair at the time'.

    12. Re:The bigger problem by JunkmanUK · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I don't want to claim any knowledge, but this looks quite interesting:

      The deck is supported by the superstructure. This transfers the load of the deck and the traffic carried to the supports. Within the superstructure are the girders, stringers, and other structural elements. The substructure is the foundation of the bridge and transfers the loads of the structure to the ground. The superstructure is supported by the substructure elements, such as the abutments and piers.
      from http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policy/2004cpr/chap3c.htm# body

      The superstructure doesn't sound trivial according to this...
    13. Re:The bigger problem by Archtech · · Score: 1

      "Get elected, then just try raising taxes to pay for something that might happen someday".

      On the other hand, the war in Iraq is estimated to cost taxpayers nearly $5,000 every *second*, with a final total cost that may be well over $1 trillion. How many bridges would that repair? Hell, how many bridges would that build?

      http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi -iraq_digest01aug01,1,455675.story
      http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,221 78240-663,00.html

      Please note that both these stories cite US federal government sources.

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    14. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Here is a better definition:

      In a bridge system, bridge superstructure is defined as all structure above bridge bearing elevation and bridge substructure is defined as everything below the superstructure. Therefore, bridge substructure includes all foundation elements such as columns, wall piers, footings, pile caps, precast or auger-cast concrete piles, drilled shafts, etc. The substructure can be generalized as an abutment or pier, which can be made of concrete, masonry, stone, steel and/or timber. Assuming this definition is accurate for the report then the 35W bridge had very low bearings (on the foundations), so everything green in that photo would be the superstructure.

      I'm not sure how this definition handles with suspension bridges, beam bridges, trestles, cable stayed bridges, etc.
    15. Re:The bigger problem by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      Get elected, then just try raising taxes to pay for something that might happen someday.

      Terrorism?

      I think they're mostly paying for that through borrowing, not taxation.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    16. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unless those things are called "Global Warming" or "AIDS Epidemic".

    17. Re:The bigger problem by hey! · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apparently, a few years ago they had found that the some of the steel had been distorted in unexpected directions. In retrospect this was ominous. It wasn't an acceleration of an expected wear process.

      This bridge was designed with a pair of steel arches which balanced on slender concrete piers on either side of the river. The load from the deck was transferred to the arches by a truss system: a network of triangles that reinforce each other. The problem with this design is that the failure of a single element puts the whole system out of balance. Such designs aren't used any more, after a bridge over the Ohio river collapsed in 1967 -- ironically the same year this bridge was completed.

      One of the important lessons, I think, is that if you have a complex piece of engineering that would kill people when it fails, anything unexpected is a serious, serious concern.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    18. Re:The bigger problem by GoofyBoy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction.

      1. Its every elected and non-elected public service employee understanding that you NEVER want anything to make the news in a negative way, regardless how correct the information is. This goes for dog-leash laws to fire services. Preventing this from happening is almost their number 1 job.
      2. Regardless of what your perception is, there are some serious employees at any government. How many professional civil engineers, with their oaths and rings and ethics, do you think are looking at the roads and bridges at the local government? How much money is being spent? Its so easy to say "this should have been prevented" and lay it on lazy bureaucratic government workers. Maybe we should have some more rules/paperwork and levels of government so this never happens again?

      --
      The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
    19. Re:The bigger problem by mikael · · Score: 1

      If you want to find out more, there are many Bridge Construction Set simuluation games available, both freeware and commercial.

      Bridge Construction Games

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    20. Re:The bigger problem by khchung · · Score: 1

      It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction. I think they understand that perfectly, but they also understands that prevention wins you no elections or acclaims, while reaction sometimes does.
      --
      Oliver.
    21. Re:The bigger problem by jollyreaper · · Score: 1

      It was known well before the collapse that the bridge was in need of repairs. It seems that no public employee, elected or not, understands that prevention is better than reaction. New techniques to detect a heightened probability of failure are useful only if someone acts on the information once it is available. Oh, I'd wager the employees knew, the engineers and inspectors knew. But who's responsible for making the call? That's the person who chose not to fund repairs, "for political expediency." Look at New Orleans. The problems with the levies and vulnerability to hurricanes far predated the Bush administration. Of course, I hated him just a little more when he said "Who could have known that the levies would fail like that?" Everyone involved knew. A leader with balls would stop passing the buck and accept responsibility, even if it wasn't his fault, because it was certainly his watch. Does the captain of a ship get to say "Oh, Ensign Fumblenuts didn't dog the hatch, that's why we took on water and sunk"? That may be the finding of the investigatory board but the captain is still to blame. Was was Ensign Fumblenuts in charge of something so important? Why was he not properly trained? And if the answer comes down to "the owners refused to pay for necessary maintenance and the crew just crossed their fingers and hoped for the best," the owners should be charged with homicide. Of course, our maritime laws are setup to shield the owners and they run things through enough shell companies to evade responsibility.

      The thing that pisses me off the most is that these failures aren't something that can be traced back directly to those at fault like the pilot of a mechanically-sound plane making a poor call and crashing. We're talking about institutional failures going back decades with hundreds or thousands of people playing their part in bringing the disaster about. How do you even promote responsibility if you cannot properly enforce punishments? Sure, I'd like to think that people just want to do the right thing but it never works out that way, there always has to be consequences to scare people into behaving.
      --
      Kwisatz Haderach
      Sell the spice to CHOAM
      This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
    22. Re:The bigger problem by fiendy · · Score: 1

      Such designs aren't used any more, after a bridge over the Ohio river collapsed in 1967 -- ironically the same year this bridge was completed.

      The pedant in me wants to mention that's a coincidence and not irony.

    23. Re:The bigger problem by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 1

      But you're kind of ignoring the bigger problem:

      The part of this bridge that collapsed was rated "satisfactory." The part that didn't have a problem (well, the investigation will show) and was rated "deficient" was *already being worked on* at the time it collapsed.

      In short, they could have had 500 trillion dollars in the coffer, and this bridge still wouldn't have been repaired, because it was judged to be in satisfactory condition and wasn't due for replacement until 2020.

      I agree with you in general, but the funding question does not apply to this bridge. The only thing it calls into question is the state's inspection program... then again, this collapse could be from some factor that had never been considered before, like "Galloping Gurdy's" collapse in Tacoma, WA. In which case it's hard to blame anybody; you can't inspect for something you didn't know to look for.

    24. Re:The bigger problem by flappinbooger · · Score: 1
      A quick google search resulted in a game with this description:

      Bridge Construction Set is all about building a bridge that doesn't break, although watching your bridge creation break and plunge a train into the watery depths below can be half the fun. In the Bridge Construction Set you design and build bridges and then stress test them to see how your creations hold up under pressure. If when test vehicles pass over your bridge they make it safely across you know you've succeeded. If they plummet into the river you know you need to go back to the drawing board. The robust physics deployed in the Bridge Construction Set let you build a wide variety of bridges that can span the river. The 3D graphics allow you to view your bridge from any angle including a first person train view - its like being strapped to the front of the train when your bridge is first tested (if this happened in real life I think we might have engineers checking all their bridges in a simulator). The Bridge Construction Set includes many types of bridge building levels in varying degrees of difficulty from simple to complex with a tutorial section to get you started. A Level Editor is also included so you can create your own levels and trade them with others.

      Even though "less than expected" people died this week, the description is still a little disturbing... if they plummet into the river, back to the drawing board??? Yikes!
      --
      Flappinbooger isn't my real name
    25. Re:The bigger problem by hey! · · Score: 1

      The irony isn't that the design was abandoned. The irony is that there was a major bridge disaster the year this bridge was completed.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    26. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How can you say that it was the substructure that failed and not the superstructure? From the videos I've seen, all that we see is the deck falling down which does not necessarily point to a failure of the superstructure or substructure. Consider what would happen if there was a bearing failure of one of the foundations below a column - the column would deflect and the deck would fall. The same is true if part of the superstructure began to fail - suppose some of the connections failed...this could also cause the deck to collapse.

    27. Re:The bigger problem by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      Still likely means that there were additional stresses on the bridge, resulting in it collapsing then. Construction equipment tends to be heavier than cars, after all.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    28. Re:The bigger problem by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      What would you use as an updated replacement?

      Compression arch suspended-deck bridge is listed as a descendant of the truss-arch bridge. By the looks of it, it could probably stand a few failures of structure intact. On the other hand, wikipedia doesn't list any bridges that are longer than the 579 meters of the I35 bridge. China just completed a 550 meter one, so it's probably reachable though.

      After all, we need to meet length requirements as well as keeping the bridge high and wide enough to not interfere with river traffic.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    29. Re:The bigger problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > What would you use as an updated replacement?

      A suspension bridge?

      Interestingly enough, the Hennepin Avenue bridge to the north, completed in 1990, was built as a suspension bridge largely for historical and aesthetic reasons, and consequently is far stronger than it needs to be. It's the shortest highway suspension bridge in the world, the cost was disproportionatlely high.

    30. Re:The bigger problem by frietbsd · · Score: 1

      This technique will cause more problems then it will solve. You should not be waiting to do maintenance until the bridge is on the verge of collapse (when it would be detected.)

      It is the amount of money diverted away from say levies in new orleans or bridges across the country and diverted toward the global war on terrorism. The question is, what will prevent more deaths?

      Making such complex systems and calibrating them will drain more money from the already negative cookey jar, so i think it would be better to just fix every bridge.

    31. Re:The bigger problem by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Actually, the way this bridge was designed, it sounds like part of the support structure for the bridge was, indeed, the surface of it. Not the pavement, of course, but the stuff the pavement was on. Many bridge designs don't care about that, you could take that all away and the bridge would stay up as just steel beams, but this design did need it.

      It's not entirely impossible that the stripping and repaving somehow helped the collapse, that it was literally the last straw when added to a full bridge thanks to rush hour. And I suspect the temperature increase in that area also had something to do with it...they mainly worried about cold temperatures that don't exist anymore, and now it's hotter than they expected it to get.

      However, I have to suggest that pretending this makes it the fault of the repairs, and if they had not been done it wouldn't have happened, is indeed silly. If it was that close to collapse, it probably would have done so in a month or two, well before it was scheduled to be repaired in 2008.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    32. Re:The bigger problem by penix1 · · Score: 1

      You noticed (or maybe you didn't so I'll point it out now) that I stayed away from commenting on the bridge. That is mainly because, as you pointed out, the investigation isn't done. I was talking in general terms.

      Still, if you had to replace a bridge, and the federal share without collapse is 50 / 50, a collapse would mean 75 / 25, which would you hope for?

      There is another problem when you talk federally funded projects like levies and such. The problem of maintenance. Those projects are based on an MOU with the community that states that the community is responsible for maintenance and upkeep after completion of the project. So the Corps of Engineers swoops in, studies the project for years, implements the project, then turns it over to the community that can't possibly afford to upkeep it. New Orleans is an example of this in action. The outcome of the failure? 100% funding of repairs to ALL the levies the Corps put in to begin with and the sad hardship to the residents that followed the failure.

      --
      This is a sig. This is only a sig. Had this been an actual sig you would have been informed where to tune for more sigs.
    33. Re:The bigger problem by CTachyon · · Score: 1

      Irony (situational irony, at least) is when you take an action to avoid a fate and thereby cause the very fate you intended to avoid. If the 1967 bridge collapse caused them to re-evaluate the Minneapolis bridge, tear it down, and rebuild it with a different design that was supposed to be safer but was actually more dangerous, thus causing the recent collapse — that'd be irony.

      --
      Range Voting: preference intensity matters
  5. Wireless Sensor Networks by dominious · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Put some wireless sensor nodes across the bridge and sense for unusual vibrations between the intersections. That's what Wireless Sensor Networks is all about. When there is a crack the vibrations will cause a signal to be sent out.

    1. Re:Wireless Sensor Networks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Los Alamos National Laboratory has been developing this technology.
      See http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3441742
      "The idea is to put arrays of sensors on structures, such as bridges, and look for the changes of patterns of signals coming out of those sensors that would give an indication of damage forming and if it is propagating," said Chuck Farrar, a civil engineer at the lab.

    2. Re:Wireless Sensor Networks by oojimaflib · · Score: 1

      Put some wireless sensor nodes across the bridge and sense for unusual vibrations between the intersections. That's what Wireless Sensor Networks is all about. When there is a crack the vibrations will cause a signal to be sent out. Now all you need to do is raise enough money to employ enough civil engineers who are competent enough to analyse that data, give them the equipment and plans they need and hope that nothing goes wrong... and of course, the more civil engineers you hire the more expensive we get :)
    3. Re:Wireless Sensor Networks by hmeister · · Score: 1

      The technology already exists to take care of this problem. The issue is the slowness of our government to implement change (and especially embrace new technology). Fiber optic sensors can already determine in real time changes in stress, pressure, humidity, temperature, etc. Osmos-group in France has already installed this technology on 550 projects worldwide including 23 in the U.S. The cost less than $50k per bridge and $50k/year for monitoring. This is far less than the cost of sending teams of engineers to "tap" every nook and crany of our bridges every 2 years. The best part is it's real time not a "snapshot" once every 2 years. Bridges have collapsed hours after inspection teams pronounced them sounds (Montreal Sept 30, 2006).

    4. Re:Wireless Sensor Networks by Karthikkito · · Score: 1

      I posted this earlier in the thread, but there's quite a bit of work in this field already; it just needs to be implemented on a wid scale.

      http://healthmonitoring.ucsd.edu/index.jsp
      http://healthmonitoring.ucsd.edu/info.jsp

    5. Re:Wireless Sensor Networks by baeksu · · Score: 1

      Good thing the public sector has all that extra money lying around...

      There was a good article on the U.S. road and bridge systems in the Civil Engineering Magazine last year (you can get the Google cache version here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=civil+enginee ring+magazine+maintenance+highways).

      The main jist is that though the network is still mostly acceptable, spending on maintenance and upgrades is not keeping up with what's needed.

      Sayeth the Civil Engineer:

      Roughly 26 percent of all bridges on urban interstates were rated deficient in 2002, and of that group, most (20 percent of the total number of interstate bridges) were functionally obsolete.

      The problem is not the lack of sensors, it's the lack of resources for maintenance and repairs. There's no use knowing a bridge is in poor condition if you don't have the budget to go out and fix it.

      Couple that with the deficit spending, and you can bet these accidents will become more common in the near future.

      --
      Gnome: A never ending quest to make unix friendly to people who don't want unix and excruciating for those that do.
  6. How about this? by rolfwind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Step 1: Stop nation building OTHER COUNTRIES
    Step 2: Start nation bulding OUR COUNTRY
    Step 3: No step 3. It doesn't have to be so complicated.

    1. Re:How about this? by zussal · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Why do we ship all of our good produce out of the country just to import lower quality stuff?

    2. Re:How about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you think we're nation building Iraq, you haven't been paying attention

      Rafter Man: "Well, at least he died for a good cause,"
      Animal Mother: "Which cause was that?"
      Rafter Man: "Democracy...?"
      Animal Mother: "Flush out your head gear, New Guy. You think we waste gooks for democracy? Don't kid yourself; this is a slaughter, and if I'm gonna get my balls shot off for a word I get to pick my own word and my word is poontang."

    3. Re:How about this? by mikerubin · · Score: 1

      This should not be modded flamebait - I agree wholeheartedly !

      Its one thing to provide charity to others, but is this the cost/reward to us for doing that?

      No, this is the result of neglect and short-sightedness.

      --
      I sat down to write a new sig tonight and all I did was make the chair warm.
    4. Re:How about this? by canuck57 · · Score: 1

      Makes a lot of sense. Think, instead of saving the middle east, let them knock each other off. Let them buy the bombs for profit. Turn it to bridge reconstruction. No, I am not kidding, I though this parents post was accurate and sane. Why spend billions on Neanderthals when you can build at home.

    5. Re:How about this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      > Step 1: Stop nation building OTHER COUNTRIES
      >Step 2: Start nation bulding OUR COUNTRY
      >Step 3: No step 3. It doesn't have to be so complicated.

      Why do you hate America? Can't you see we're building bridges over there, so we don't have to build bridges over here!

      (CAPTCHA: "soviet". Oh, the fucking irony.)

    6. Re:How about this? by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Um, so we can buy iPhones?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    7. Re:How about this? by king-manic · · Score: 1

      Makes a lot of sense. Think, instead of saving the middle east, let them knock each other off. Let them buy the bombs for profit. Turn it to bridge reconstruction. No, I am not kidding, I though this parents post was accurate and sane. Why spend billions on Neanderthals when you can build at home.

      Each American who thinks the invasion Iraq is "saving" the middle east is an active contributor of why the US has had a sharp decline in buying power and the general decline in common sense and intelligence. If they could find a selective pressure for lack of political critical thinking I think it would greatly help the world as a whole.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    8. Re:How about this? by arminw · · Score: 1

      .....Turn it to bridge reconstruction.....

      Right now, the people who have/control oil have far more political clout (money) than those who build bridges. Maybe if a few more important bridges collapse, that may change. There are many pretty major bridges in the US and relatively few of them fail spectacularly. Here in the state of Oregon many bridges, especially in I5 have been or are in the process of repair/replacement. State governments, not the feds are responsible for their highways and bridges. Maybe, the Minnesota highway department need closer scrutiny, rather than blaming the Federal Government. If the state inspectors say a major interstate bridge is unsafe and threaten to close it, you can be sure the funds to fix it can be found.

      --
      All theory is gray
    9. Re:How about this? by zussal · · Score: 1

      You got me... I feel terrible now. I'm literally going to cry

  7. Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We need congress to step in and criminalize gravity.

    Possibly a war on gravity may be needed.

    P.S. This is not a money problem. We are shipping shiploads of cash to faraway lands and paying millionare trust fund babies not to farm. Maybe we can put those funds someplace more useful.

    1. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we can put those funds someplace more useful. Hate to be cynical, but fat chance.
    2. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We need congress to step in and criminalize gravity. Gravity is just a theory. As such it (and all science) is nothing more than an attack on God. We don't float off into space because it is God's will.
    3. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Belacgod · · Score: 1

      So when do we sue God for collapsing the bridge?

    4. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Congratulations! You've won the troll of the week award! What are you going to do now?

      I'm agoin' to Disney World!

    5. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      You really should check out The Man Who Sued God. Basic premise is man loses his boat/home is struck by lightning, and the insurance company won't pay out because it is an "act of God". So he decides to sue God. The logic is that the church (God's representatives on earth), argue that God didn't destroy his boat, then the insurance company should have to pay him. Either way he's entitled to money from someone. Really funny movie that really shows the flawed logic insurance companies use to get out of paying. I really have to watch this again sometime.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    6. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Belacgod · · Score: 1
      What if they claimed not to be responsible because it was the work of the devil?

      Or if he tried a shotgun lawsuit against the Catholics, Baptists, Unitarians, Muslims, etc? In that case none of the defendants would risk trying to get out of the case, because whoever's god was responsible is the true religion.

    7. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and what the heck is the Mississippi River doing in Minnesota anyway?

    8. Re:Technology is not the solution to this problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, and what the heck is the Mississippi River doing in Minnesota anyway? i'm in ur state, flooding ur d00dz!
  8. Some of the locals seemed to know... by Thorrablot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm a Twin Cities resident (local name for Minneapolis/St. Paul), and have taken this bridge hundreds of times, as well as biked along trails on the riverbanks below it. It was never an attractive bridge, but certainly showed no obvious signs of problems. I was shocked to learn that a good friend of mine was told by a structural engineer two weeks ago that he "always avoids driving on that bridge during rush hour" - apparently the engineer had already read/heard something that we're just finding out.

    This smacks of criminal negligence - complete catastrophic failure in 4 seconds could not have been an undetectable condition.

    --
    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. -- James Klass
    1. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Paktu · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's conflicting reports about it. The Feds inspected it a few years ago and said it was in immediate need of repair, but the state sent in people who claimed it would be viable until 2020. While it might appear that the state just didn't want to spend money, keep in mind that Minnesota has the third lowest percentage of structurally deficient bridges, so it's not like there were other major priorities that were sucking up funding.

    2. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by zussal · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I didn't have anything to watch on TV that night though. So it wasn't all bad.

    3. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Vellmont · · Score: 4, Insightful


      This smacks of criminal negligence - complete catastrophic failure in 4 seconds could not have been an undetectable condition.

      You have way to much confidence in science and technology. I think it's certainly possible that the inspections done didn't detect the problem with the bridge. Science isn't perfect, and there's always assumptions and things no one knows.

      --
      AccountKiller
    4. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Thorrablot · · Score: 1

      There's conflicting reports about it. The Feds inspected it a few years ago and said it was in immediate need of repair, but the state sent in people who claimed it would be viable until 2020. While it might appear that the state just didn't want to spend money, keep in mind that Minnesota has the third lowest percentage of structurally deficient bridges, so it's not like there were other major priorities that were sucking up funding.
      Thanks for the statemaster link - good research link.

      I have heard about these conflicts, and have an incredibly hard time understanding why:
      1. If a federal inspection says it needs repair, how does a state inspection override this?
      2. Why should the state be responsible for the safety and inspection of a federal bridge?
      3. What oversight is there to insure that the state doesn't "pay for what they want to hear", and that they make sure they get a contractor who saves them from expensive maintenance?

      Something is rotten (aside from the beams) about the whole situation. Why would a random engineer happen to know this bridge was unsafe and avoid driving on it? Why wouldn't the legislature listen to the more cautious reports from a "higher authority", instead of the less cautious ones (money?)

      And the really terrifying question is of course, what's to keep this from happening again?
      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. -- James Klass
    5. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      Two things I immediately noticed that made me openly wonder why this bridge was so vulnerable:

      1) The spindly structure makes it apparent that the whole thing will come down even with one minor structural stress problem.

      2) The surprisingly small size of the bridge supports.

      I personally expect the replacement bridge to be a writ large size version of 10th Avenue Bridge nearby with its thick, concrete structures.

    6. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Thorrablot · · Score: 1


      This smacks of criminal negligence - complete catastrophic failure in 4 seconds could not have been an undetectable condition.

      You have way to much confidence in science and technology. I think it's certainly possible that the inspections done didn't detect the problem with the bridge. Science isn't perfect, and there's always assumptions and things no one knows.
      I do have high confidence in civil and structural engineering. This bridge was built in 1967, and is a style that would not be built today, due to an intrinsic lack of redundancy in the support structure. One span breaking was known as all that was needed to cause the bridge to collapse.

      This was a known limitation of the architecture. Given this fact, I *do* believe that proper engineering to frequently inspect, and monitor the bridge (including real-time strain gauges) would have detected the problem. I also doubt that the proper engineering was done - and I suspect that this was not due to lack of recommendations, but more likely due to "fiscally conservative" minded legislature that was ultimately only penny-wise.
      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. -- James Klass
    7. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Thorrablot · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes - there's a good writeup here already.

      The bridge is a truss arch bridge built in 1967. The design doesn't interfere with river traffic (well, up until two days ago anyways) - but I did hear an interview with a Berkeley professor describe how such bridges are no longer built due to their lack of redundancy in case of span failure.

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo. -- James Klass
    8. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Vellmont · · Score: 2, Insightful


      I also doubt that the proper engineering was done - and I suspect that this was not due to lack of recommendations, but more likely due to "fiscally conservative" minded legislature that was ultimately only penny-wise.

      The bridge was inspected in 2005 and 2006, so there was quite a lot of inspection of the bridge occouring. If they had reason to believe the bridge was going to collapse, it would have been shut down right away. The major bridges across the country are inspected every 2 years.

      Anyway, it's waay to early to start ruling anything in or out as to what went wrong. My point isn't to say "it can't be politics in play", but to try to put some balance into a situation where we know very little about what caused the failure.

      I do agree in general though that not enough funding is being put into the countries infra-structure. Whether that's a direct cause of this bridge collapse I don't know.

      --
      AccountKiller
    9. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by moosesocks · · Score: 4, Informative

      Likewise, you're not exactly going to be able to attract funding to fix or replace the bridge if you're going around telling everybody that everything's just peachy.

      Personally, I sort of doubt that this could have been prevented. It's one of those one-in-a-billion sort of odds that unfortunately caught up with us...

      I'm more than a bit irked at the media for taking the "structurally deficient" term, and plastering it all over the news without a very clear understanding of what it means. There's no cause for a panic or a rucus -- our bridges are no more dangerous today than they were last week. Hell, we don't even know what caused the bridge to collapse, and ordering all sorts of emergency inspections (which has been done in many many states so far) is pointless considering that the bridge that collapsed was previously deemed to be safe on multiple occasions.

      Of course, other recent incidents such as the con edison steam explosion in NYC reek of criminal negligence.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    10. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have no idea how well steel truss bridges are understood. Truss bridges in general are very strong, well built versions expected to last hundreds of years should civilization end tomorrow. They're also labor intensive to build. Expensive. Steel as a construction material is exceptionally well understood, and what's not well understood is being investigated in very long term creep experiments. Steel isn't like aluminum where you can't trust it. Given proper composition, installation and care (corrosion etc) it's dependable. It doesn't have to be replaced (just in case) in the same way Aluminium does. It's a great cheap, strong, tough, forgiving, durable material who's only real defficency is it's density.

      Someone didn't do their job. They were either incompetent or they lied. The price is lives. And now in stead of rehabilitated or a scheduled replacement, there's the catastrophic failure, attendant destruction, and unscheduled replacement which is vastly more expensive. Were politicians not listening to science, or were the those practicing engineering derelict? Well, we'll probably find out. But those involved should probably end up breaking rocks if not swinging from a rope.

    11. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Jimithing+DMB · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I also doubt that the proper engineering was done - and I suspect that this was not due to lack of recommendations, but more likely due to "fiscally conservative" minded legislature that was ultimately only penny-wise.

      Ahh, here we go. It's the GOPs fault. If only we'd spent federal money used for the Iraq war to fix this bridge. This was the first comment on Kos about this tragedy and it was echoed verbatim by several reporters in the mainstream media. I don't mean they just had the same thought, I mean they used the same damn words.

      Then there's the other one.. if only they'd instituted a 5 cent/gallon gas tax that was proposed. That's a more simple "pay as you go" (e.g. tax and spend) approach instead of the "creative approach" those damn Republicans in the state were trying to come up with to finance road work. That was courtesy of the Minneapolis Star.

      Fact is that Minnesota (like most states) has a budget surplus and could have paid for the bridge repair without raising taxes. Perhaps they'd have had to spend less on that new stadium or less on that new art gallery. So what? Can we maybe all agree that fixing the roads ought to be higher on the priority list than doling out money for a privately owned stadium?

      All I can figure is that several people probably decided that it was unlikely that the bridge was going to collapse. They had conflicting reports from engineers, some saying it would in say 5-10 years, others giving it more like 20 so long as some repairs were done. So what did they do? They paid for the repairs figuring that repairing the existing structure to get a few more years out of it was a responsible choice vs. building an entirely new bridge.

      It's disingenuous to suggest as others have that they paid off the state inspector to paint a more rosy picture after the federal inspector gave a pretty bleak one. It was in nobody's interest to get a more rosy picture since the state still had to pay for the repairs which ultimately, with the benefit of hindsight, were shown not to work.

      In the end, I think what we're going to see here is that it wasn't really a case of wanton disregard for safety but rather a reasonable and responsible choice (a calculated risk) that happened to go horribly wrong. It's easy to say now that they should have paid for a new bridge rather than paid to repair the existing one, but that's only now with hindsight.

      The good news is that the people of Minnesota really banded together and helped each other out of the tragedy. One of the boys on the school bus apparently took it upon himself to open the door and lead the people out. People on the ground stood by the bus on a crumbling bridge and helped the passengers out. Divers are working in absolutely insane conditions to find the dead so they can give the family a definite answer. That's the real story here. There is still some good in this world, even in the face of tragedy.

    12. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm more than a bit irked at the media for taking the "structurally deficient" term, and plastering it all over the news without a very clear understanding of what it means.

      Here in WA, the WA DOT has essentially admitted that "structurally deficient" is a scare word used to boost priority in asking for federal funding.
    13. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      Back home, the one-lane farm bridges in my town are all "structurally-deficient" despite there being absolutely nothing wrong with them.

      In fact, spending money to upgrade them to two-lane bridges would be stupid.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    14. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      My governor came out and told everyone not to worry. Apparently, even though my state has particularly low rated bridges, it is not a problem because the inspections are "largely up to date."

      He literally referred to them as being "largely" up to date. As in, not "fully" up to date. Nor even "mostly" up to date. But, at least "some," and possibly as many as "many" though not necessarily more than half, have up-to-date inspections. Don't even ask about the actual maintenance.

      And the great irony is that we just turned our backs on 2-1 matching federal highway money. (yes, I know where "federal highway money" comes from, but we've just elected a Democratic Congress and have a President who thinks "not vetoing things" is some kind of virtue. So that ship has sailed for this budget year at the very least.)

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    15. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by king-manic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Likewise, you're not exactly going to be able to attract funding to fix or replace the bridge if you're going around telling everybody that everything's just peachy.

      Personally, I sort of doubt that this could have been prevented. It's one of those one-in-a-billion sort of odds that unfortunately caught up with us...

      I'm more than a bit irked at the media for taking the "structurally deficient" term, and plastering it all over the news without a very clear understanding of what it means. There's no cause for a panic or a rucus -- our bridges are no more dangerous today than they were last week. Hell, we don't even know what caused the bridge to collapse, and ordering all sorts of emergency inspections (which has been done in many many states so far) is pointless considering that the bridge that collapsed was previously deemed to be safe on multiple occasions.

      Of course, other recent incidents such as the con edison steam explosion in NYC reek of criminal negligence.


      Dying by being hit by a meteorite is a uncontrollable event which is completely blameless. Dying because a bridge gave out is an act you can lay blame for. The engineers who checked the bridge didn't do their job. A freak accident would be if a whale and a bowl of petunia's sudden;t landed on the bridge and caused it's collapse. Buckling and giving out on it's own is negligence by the state due to lack of proper engineering.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    16. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Which implies we've found one of the key problems with bridge funding - too many pigs at the trough.

    17. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      It's perfectly possible that there was some sort of small-scale geologic or weather-related event which took place, and caused the supports of the bridge to fail in a cascading manner.

      Unlikely, but possible. The Tacoma Narrows bridge was considered to be a generally good design apart from the one tiny thing which made it collapse when the weather conditions were just right. In retrospect, it was easy to see what went wrong, but I wouldn't lay blame on any one person. The bridge was rebuilt with more or less the same design plus a remedial feature to prevent the bridge from entering into harmonic oscillation.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    18. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by MellowTigger · · Score: 1

      Now, I don't know the specifics of the I35 bridge, but I do know that for years I drove over a much smaller bridge that had chunks of concrete falling out all over the place (the side of the road was littered with rubble) and the exposed rebar was all rusted out. Many times while driving over it, I wondered what the experience would be like if the bridge just gave out while I was on it. Shortly before I moved to a different part of the metro area, engineers completely tore down the bridge and built a new one.

      There are lots of bridges with similar problems, I'm sure. This one case was caught before it collapsed on its own, but it was no surprise to me at all to hear about the I35 bridge. I would suspect that the large amounts of salt used up here to clear the roads of ice during the long winter is part of the reason for the poor structural conditions.

      (I was talking about the East Bush Lake Road bridge over 494, for other locals that are curious.)

    19. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As another Twin Cities resident, I'm surprised you're reading so much into that statement. Frankly, I also avoided that bridge during rush hour. The traffic on it SUCKED! If you had another route that would get you to your destination, OF COURSE you would take it instead of joining the traffic!

      Reading anything more into the statement without any more proof than the quote itself? Absurd. Taking the quote out of context without any supporting evidence? Fearmongering and irresponsible. Why exactly did the engineer say what he did? What was the context? If it was for reasons of safety, what made him say it? A gut feeling, or something more? If something more, what was it? Without this extra info, what could we POSSIBLY read into his statement other than that he doesn't like driving during rush hour... and why would that be a surprise to anyone?

    20. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was shocked to learn that a good friend of mine was told by a structural engineer two weeks ago that he "always avoids driving on that bridge during rush hour" - apparently the engineer had already read/heard something that we're just finding out.

      Well, I drove next to that bridge--on the cedar/10th ave bridge (it's the nearby standing bridge in almost every news photo of the site)--every every single day on my way home from work. I could have taken the 35W bridge during rush hour, but never did. That had nothing to do with structural concerns--it's just a supremely congested bridge during normal rush hour, and with construction, even worse.

      Saying that you wouldn't drive on the bridge during rush hour says nothing about why you wouldn't drive on the bridge during rush hour. There's lots of reasons you wouldn't want to drive on a major rush hour route across a bottleneck bridge when it's undergoing construction and has lane restrictions.

    21. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      The Auburn-Foresthill Bridge near Auburn, California could probably be the LAST of the truss arch bridges ever built in California. Most new bridges I know of in my area are nowadays stressed-concrete bridges with lots of redundancy, important especially here in earthquake-prone California.

    22. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by SETIGuy · · Score: 2

      Personally, I sort of doubt that this could have been prevented. It's one of those one-in-a-billion sort of odds that unfortunately caught up with us...
      It's more like one-in-a-few-thousand odds. We don't have a billion bridges in this country, and a collapse seems to happen every couple years or so. And like it or not, it is a political calculation regarding how much we are willing to spend to prevent such things. Thus far the answer is that we are willing to spend enough that we don't have a collapse every month, but not so much that we would only have a collapse every 20 years.
    23. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by D'Sphitz · · Score: 1

      Perhaps they'd have had to spend less on that new stadium or less on that new art gallery. So what? Can we maybe all agree that fixing the roads ought to be higher on the priority list than doling out money for a privately owned stadium?

      The new stadium is being paid for by a hennepin county sales tax specifically passed to build a stadium. That money wouldn't and couldn't be used to fix bridges. The county doesn't fix bridges, the state does (or the feds in the case of interstate freeways like 35w (i think)).

      "More than 70,000 bridges across the country are rated structurally deficient like the span that collapsed in Minneapolis"

      and how many of those bridges are in New York? Or DC? Wisconsin? California? Pennsylvania? Missouri? All of these states are building or have recently built a new stadium.

      This isn't a stadium issue, and it's not a Minnesota issue. Actually Minnesota has the 4th smallest percentage of those 70,000 bridges rated structurally deficient. Saying "how can you build a stadium while your bridges need fixing" is like saying the police have no business writing traffic tickets while there are still murderers unsolved. The can both happen, if they want to pass a bill to fix bridges they are certainly welcome to.

    24. Re:Some of the locals seemed to know... by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      No, it's not the fault of the federal Republicans. That would be silly.

      It's the fault of the state Republicans, specifically, the governor, who has absurdly vetoed all transportation funding bills (And most funding bills in general), until they were cut almost in half.

      The GP was exactly correct. See my signature.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  9. Ultrasonic testing isn't new. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondestructive_testin g

    We still don't know why the bridge in question came down. The structure was non-redundant. That means that if any part of the structure fails, the whole thing fails. In that light, the sudden failure of a structural member would bring the bridge down quickly and there wouldn't be sufficient warning to save lives. For example, an off-center load might overload an otherwise safe member.

    None of this is to say that bridges shouldn't be instrumented. Such instrumentation would show ongoing changes in the condition of bridges and could lead to corrective maintenance. Until now, most inspections have been visual and that has been mostly successful. The collapse of a bridge/overpass in Quebec last year came about because the builder didn't do his job properly and the inspectors weren't properly trained. Even with the most rigorous testing, cheap lazy politicians will still put off spending on maintenane items because they don't get many votes. The best way to insure the safety of our crumbling infrastructure is to hold the decision makers personally liable for their decisions.

  10. Won't fix apathy and greed by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As the old phrase goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The technology's nice and all, but I'd saw the trick is getting people to look into this sort of thing, and take action, beforehand. I say this because in my area there was an old bridge that many people used regularly, however, it was a well known fact that it was deteriorating. The city, however, didn't want to spend the money to fix it, and it was years before anything was done (despite the fancy new road nobody wanted or needed that was built just minutes away). That bridge could have possibly collapsed, and everyone knew it. This new technology might make detection easier, but as long as the almighty buck is king, no amount of technology can compensate for human nature.

    1. Re:Won't fix apathy and greed by Detritus · · Score: 1

      We could take an idea from Hammurabi, and drop several hundred tons of concrete and steel on the heads of the government officials responsible for the safety of the bridge.

      --
      Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
  11. The science of commas by noidentity · · Score: 1

    Acoustic emissions detection systems, which listen for the sounds of metal snapping on structures, are already are being sold and fitted.

  12. Bridges by polygamous+coward · · Score: 0

    Ever hear of "collapse of the infrastructure"? How graphic.

  13. How about just using existing know-how... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    Like building structural redundancy into the bridge to begin with?

    1. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Paktu · · Score: 5, Interesting
      While it's easy to ask "why didn't they just make it redundant?", there are reasons behind these decisions. Please take a look at this link: http://www.visi.com/~jweeks/bridges/pages/ms16.htm l

      There's a lot of good info there, but here are the cliff notes:

      A University of Minnesota Civil Engineer in a report to MN-DOT recently noted that this bridge is considered to be a non-redundant structure. That is, if any one member fails, the entire bridge can collapse. A key factor is that there are only four pylons holding up the arch. Any damage to any one pylon would be catastrophic. The textbook example of a non-redundant bridge is the Silver Bridge over the Ohio River. It failed shortly before Christmas in 1967 resulting in 46 deaths. A single piece of hardware failed due to a tiny manufacturing defect. But that piece was non-redundant, and the entire bridge collapsed into the icy river. Today, bridge engineers design bridges so that any single piece of the bridge can fail without causing the entire bridge to collapse. It is tragic that the I-35W bridge was built a few years too early to benefit from that lesson.

    2. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by dhanson865 · · Score: 1

      Lets see the Titanic sank in 1912. Is that not enough of a lead time for engineers to figure out that redundancy and quality of manufacture are key components to public safety? Why wait 55 more years for the Silver Bridge collapse to say that bridges should be built with enough over design aka fudge factor to survive a manufacturing defect?

    3. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by calidoscope · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The problem with the Silver Bridge was not so much underdesign, but the lack of redundancy in the eyebars used in the suspension members. Most suspension bridges use bundles of steel wires, if one wire breaks there are enough redundant wires to take up the load. In the case of the Silver Bridge, when one of the pins holding two of the eyebars broke, there was no redundant member to take up the load. What made things worse was that the towers holding the suspension members were on rockers, so they fell down when the eyebars failed.


      Something similar may have happened with the I-35W bridge, a lack of redundancy led to the bridge to collapse as a result of a single piece failing.


      By the way, most aircraft are required to maintain structural integrity after the failure of a single structural element such as a wing spar.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    4. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by vux984 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lets see the Titanic sank in 1912.

      Seriously? The Titanic? You realize the Titanic was considered unsinkable precisely BECAUSE it had redundancy (double bottom), other 'state of the art' technology, and went beyond the standard for lifeboats. (Even though there were not enough, yes, it was more than the standards called for.)

      The ONLY lesson that could be learned from the titanic is that NOTHING is invincible/unsinkable/indestructible.

    5. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by SlshSuxs · · Score: 1

      The Mothman knocked the Silver Bridge down.

    6. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by MadUndergrad · · Score: 1

      "The ONLY lesson that could be learned from the titanic is that NOTHING is invincible/unsinkable/indestructible."

      Also that steel gets brittle when cold. See Liberty Ships.

    7. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Also that steel gets brittle when cold. See Liberty Ships.

      Didn't they use the same steel that was used in the riveted ships preceding them?

      One of my engineering materials books lists the Liberty Ship failures as caused by a lack of understanding in stress distribution which the all welded design exasperated. Riveted construction had the advantage of allowing stress relief because the joints had a small amount of give in them.

      There was a famous incident where a cook noticed a crack forming from the corner of a joint and was told it was not serious. He used a marker to record its progress by writing the dates down on the surface and when the ship broke in two it was found that catastrophic failure occurred when the fracture exceeded the critical crack length for that material at the designed load.

    8. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Agripa · · Score: 1

      The problem with the Silver Bridge was not so much underdesign, but the lack of redundancy in the eyebars used in the suspension members.

      While the suspension eyebar design certainly lacked redundancy it also was not designed in such a way that cracks smaller then the critical crack length for the material at the design load could be discovered through inspection.

      In the case of the Silver Bridge, when one of the pins holding two of the eyebars broke, there was no redundant member to take up the load.

      It was actually the eye of the eyebar which failed and not the pin. They were single piece castings and it was not possible to inspect the inside area between the pin and the eyebar where the crack formed.

    9. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The liberty ship problem wasn't brittleness from cold, it was fatigue cracking. The sides split from deck-level down, halving the ships. They solved the problem by adding thicker reinforcing steel to the sides right at deck level.

    10. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by pipingguy · · Score: 1

      the Silver Bridge over the Ohio River. It failed shortly before Christmas in 1967 resulting in 46 deaths. A single piece of hardware failed due to a tiny manufacturing defect

      I thought Mothman caused that one.

    11. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      One of my engineering materials books lists the Liberty Ship failures as caused by a lack of understanding in stress distribution which the all welded design exasperated.


      Perhaps you meant exacerbated?
      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    12. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      It was actually the eye of the eyebar which failed and not the pin.


      Good point, but IMBO, the lack of structural redundancy was even more of a problem.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    13. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Thanks for pointing that out.

      I was thinking "exacerbated" when I typed "exasperated" and of course poof read it wrong also. I hope next time I will remember.

    14. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by whit3 · · Score: 1

      It's not unusual to make bridge components redundant for safety; the first bridge over the Mississippi
      was the Eads bridge at St. Louis, and it was designed so any component could be removed for
      maintenance. Construction started in 1867, and the bridge is still standing. It is still in use.

      It was also the first use of steel in a major way; Carnegie lost lots of money meeting the
      strict elasticity specifications on the bridge members, but made up for it in the
      boost to his reputation.

    15. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...the first bridge over the Mississippi was the Eads bridge at St. Louis
      Awright!! That means the original Hennepin Avenue bridge(1855) in Minneapolis beat the "first" bridge by almost 20 years!
    16. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe we were discussing the Mississippi River, not the Mississippi Creek.

    17. Re:How about just using existing know-how... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > I believe we were discussing the Mississippi River, not the Mississippi Creek.

      Right. The Hennepin Avenue Bridge spans the Mississippi River.

      The Eads Bridge spans the Mississippi + Minnesota + St. Croix + Chippewa + Wisconsin + Maquoketa + Rock + Skunk + Des Moines + Illinois + Kaskaskia + Big Muddy + Missouri Rivers.

  14. ironic by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Informative
    there's a rant i read a few days ago from a what seems to be a bitter old time engineer who says that ancient styles of bridge design fare better than more modern ones because of redundancy: if something fails, the damage is localized, rather than the whole bridge going because of just one of many of its elements. he points to something called "value engineering"- aided by computer analysis, that is the source of this kind of bad nonredundant bridge design that was the I35W bridge

    what's ironic is that modern technology has therefore made bridges less safe, by empowering those from the middle of the last century who wished to save money by losing less materials, at the expense of safety by sacrificing redundancy. just read what he says, saying it better than me:

    14.August 2nd, 2007 1:39 am

    Compare the collapsed steel truss bridge with the reinforced concrete arches of the intact bridge in the background of some of the photographs. The concrete bridge consists of inherent stable arches, a design which has stood the test of time since the Roman Empire. Even if one arch of this bridge had fallen, the remaining arches would have remained intact and loss of life and injury would have been limited to the failed section.

    Compare this with the more recent bridge, composed of steel trusses which held up a concrete deck. The entire 1000 foot long section was tied together structurally to save money. It had no tolerance for partial failure. If one section failed, the entire section would go down. This more modern bridge was ugly as well as a poor design. This bridge was designed by modern engineers who have no sense of beauty and think they can calculate every decision on the basis of cost/benefit. They practice a destructive type of design called value engineering - taking out the expensive stuff if it's redundant or optional.

    We don't yet know which piece of the structure failed, but it may have been a small one - such as rusted steel, steel which looked OK on the surface but had deteriorated in its carrying capacity, perhaps in tension. The connection between concrete rebar and the supporting steel space frame.

    This poor design based primarily on cost considerations has been required all over this country in countless projects for the past 50 years.

    One section of the old San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge failed in the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake because there wasn't enough "give" for the shaking due to the quake. Two lives were lost - one by a woman who tried to drive her car across the gap and who would have survived had she waited for help. However, the rest of the bridge remained and will be used until this fall when it is destroyed after the new bridge opens.

    The new San Francisco-Oakland bridge which is replacing the old bridge has the same basic flaw as the bridge which collapsed in Minneapolis today: If any one piece failes, the entire bridge will fail catastrophically! The new Bay Bridge is designed to look elegant and be a landmark - but it has no redundancy in an area with severe earthquakes. It too was designed by modern engineers. It will be a disaster waiting to happen, just like the World Trade Center and the Route 35 Minneapolis Bridge, and the New Orleans levies. America no longer has the leading structural engineers of the world designing its infrastructure. How many of them owe their jobs to our failing political system?

    It is ironic that the lack of redundancy in any structure also makes it inherently more susceptible to terrorism - witness the collapse in the World Trade Center.

    America is in bad shape, and we seem to be addressing our problems in a piecemeal and ultimately stupid way.

    -- Posted by MJ

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:ironic by Ron+Bennett · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some may be interpret his comment about NY WTC 1 & 2 as over the top, but he's right on ... they too were an example "value engineering", to borrow a phrase from above, while having redundency for their outside shells, did NOT for the floor slabs themselves; each floor was designed to around 3x expected load, but that's of little to no help in a "pancaking" scenerio in a tower that had well over 100 floors...

      Also, some of the other "value" decisions made during WTC 1 & 2 construction are laughable by today's standards, such as using drywall instead of concrete in various parts of the core structure. Contrast that with the Empire state building, which despite being somewhat smaller, contains over double the steel, considerable amounts of concrete, substantial fire-proofing, and are built with a box frame contruction, which is highly redundent.

      Ron

    2. Re:ironic by dwhite21787 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      from what I recall, the WTC was well engineered. The heat retardant on the structural steel was applied badly, and the beyond-tolerance damage of the jumbo jets managed to take out the planned redundancy. I wouldn't put the WTC in this category.

      --
      "Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers
    3. Re:ironic by Alastor187 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Are sure that was written by an engineer?

      He says look at the WTC, it collapsed because of the lack of redundancy.

      What?

      Seriously, the building was hit by 150,000 lb aircraft carrying 20,000 gallons of flammable liquid. It was obviously never designed to withstand that kind of structural complication.

      However, for a minute lets say someone had enough foresight to add "resistance to impact from commercial aircraft" into the structural requirements. Why stop there? What about earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, or meteorites?

      Where do you draw line? How much cost can you tolerate?

      It is not engineering that is overly concerned with cost to benefit ratios, that responsibility falls on management and/or accounting. If engineering comes up with two designs for a bridge, where one is under budget and lacks redundancy and the other is over budget and but incorporates redundancy, it is management or the customer that must decide what is most important.

      Now some people may say that engineering has an ethical responsibility to build the best product, which may be true. But how does one do that, by quitting their job every time that don't get their way? Or by building the better a better product with the lesser budget, that is working for free?

      While I agree that modern engineering has a lot less design tolerance. I think this is thanks to a better understanding of physics as well as better tools. So it is now possible to safely design bridge with a poor failure mode because we 'better' understand what drives the failure (I am not saying that poor failure modes are better).

      In this case I think the inspection process is more suspect than actual design. I think everyone would agree that the design had areas of concern. But no design is perfect and all bridges will eventually fail. That is why they are inspected on regular bases. How is it that this bridge was inspected in the last few year and no critical issues were found? Doesn't that mean that a better inspection process is needed?

    4. Re:ironic by ucblockhead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One big reason Roman bridges lasted so long is that the Romans had no clue how to build a bridge that was strong "enough". Because they were ignorant of the math and engineering required, they instead just built as strong as possible, damn the cost. This was, of course, much, much stronger than strong enough to last a few decades. We, with our modern engineering, can build things that are strong "enough", and thus, don't last near as long and are generally weaker. But we save lots of money.

      Until someone miscalculates.

      --
      The cake is a pie
    5. Re:ironic by macaddict · · Score: 4, Insightful

      disaster waiting to happen, just like the World Trade Center

      A disaster? WTF do you have to do to be considered a success for this guy?

      A fuel-laden commercial jet slams into a 110 story building (x2) and a little less than 3,000 people died.

      The buildings could have collapsed immediately and killed, what, about 20,000 people? But both stood long enough (56 minutes and 102 minutes) to evacuate most of the occupants. Sounds like a pretty damn successful building design to me.

    6. Re:ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I seem to recall hearing that an aircraft collision was considered in the design process of the WTC towers. They were well aware of the incident where the B-25 flew into the Empire State Building.

      IIRC they considered the effects of the largest airliner of the day, the Boeing 707 I think, colliding with the tower.

      I agree with you that all in all they did pretty well considering the buildings temporarily withstood the impacts of two aircraft that were larger, heavier, and carrying more fuel than the aircraft they considered while designing the towers.

    7. Re:ironic by quax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Slapdash. If you calculate that your empire lasts forever the most economic way to build is to engineer structures that last forever.

    8. Re:ironic by joshuac · · Score: 1

      ---snip ...wasn't enough "give" for the shaking due to the quake. Two lives were lost - one by a woman who tried to drive her car across the gap and who would have survived had she waited for help. However, the rest of the bridge remained and will be used until this fall when it is destroyed...
      ---snip

      Wow. This really stands out to me for some reason; the one fatality on the Bay Bridge wouldn't have changed had she "waited for help".

      A quick google:
      http://www.sfmuseum.org/hist2/presidio.html
      (ctrl-f for "Moala Kalushia")

      A select paragraph:

      SGT Mercier returned to Lesisita and began to reassure him again. "I heard the doctor behind me saying, 'Somebody start CPR' I turned around, one medic was standing over, about two feet away just looking down at her [Lesisita] like he was pretty shocked ...maybe he hadn't seen this before. I released the hand of the guy and turned around and started doing chest compressions on her. It was pretty difficult at first since her ribs were through her chest cavity. and they started to cut my hands. The doctor saw that and he gave me a cervical collar (neck brace). I put it over her chest to keep [her broken ribs] from penetrating my skin."

      This "ranting engineer" annoys me. First he makes it sound like this woman "tried" to drive her car across the gap (hint: the police directed traffic the wrong direction, she didn't have enough distance to stop the hatchback she and her brother were in by the time that the missing bridge plate came into view), then he says that she died due to her not waiting for help, and he says there was a 2nd additional death as well.

      Perhaps this guy is right that we are balancing the economic redundancy/cost curve a little too closely, but getting his facts wrong like this makes me look at what his saying a little more carefully.

    9. Re:ironic by adolf · · Score: 1
      Where do you draw line? How much cost can you tolerate?

      I suck at math, so I'm sure that I'm expressing this wrong. But I'll try to answer your question anyway:

      B / (W + F + H + P) = T
      • B is the number of buildings, bridges, or other structures in the USA which generally could use (or could have used) more redundant engineering, whether because of their intrinsic or functional value, the potential for lost life, or the structures' ability of to frighten grown, rational adults for years to come in the event of sudden catastrophic failure.
      • F is the total spent, or forecast to be spent, fixing the hole in the ground downtown Manhattan where the WTC previously stood, along with repairing the Pentagon building, and the cost of any new developments required to replace the productivity that those structures provided society with.
      • W is the total amounts spent fighting the most recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, including any post-war cleanup.
      • H is the sum total of the post-9/11 increase in government security efforts, especially as suggested or funded by the Department of Homeland Security.
      • P is the total spent by private individuals and corporations to enhance their security, directly or indirectly because of an increase in perceived threat following 9/11.
        Which leaves us with...
      • T, as the average additional cost per structure to improve safety and redundancy which could be tolerated.

      Even without completing the equation, it sure looks like there's plenty of money for good engineering and construction techniques. It's just not as glamorous if you get it right in the first place -- without a disaster, nobody gets to play hero.

      Besides, I'd so much rather have an army of well-paid engineers and iron workers, working steel mills in Ohio and Pennsylvania, more free (libre) movement in public places, and more privacy in private, than the festering mess we have today.

    10. Re:ironic by joshuac · · Score: 1

      ...nevermind that after about 2000 years, the only bridges that would remain for us to see would be the best examples.

      I bet the average Roman bridge that existed during the height of the empire isn't as good as what examples are still standing for us to look at.

    11. Re:ironic by donaldm · · Score: 1

      The Roman engineers had a very good grasp of civil engineering and maths since a good deal of knowledge was got from Greece and improved on. They did not just build as strong as possible and hang the expense since a bridge building project still had to be paid and accounted for by the province it was being built in unless it was of a strategic nature where the cost would be shared. Much like how our modern societies work.

      You did not mention slaves and that is good since most of the Roman roads and bridges were actually built by the armed forces under direction of Roman engineers and in many ways brought great prosperity to the provinces. On a side note the Romans also invented reinforced concrete which is not that much different to what we use today, it is just we have better reinforcing materials than what was available to the Romans.

      The differences between the old Roman structures compared to modern ones is we have better materials to use which can result in larger and longer spanning structures while the Romans used the "arch" which had limited spanning capabilities but excellent flexibility and stability.

      Cutting corners on a project can save money but the potential loss of life in the event of a failure normally results in very severe penalties if convicted (in ancient Rome this was no exception either) although that is not to say some unscrupulous people won't try.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    12. Re:ironic by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      However, for a minute lets say someone had enough foresight to add "resistance to impact from commercial aircraft" into the structural requirements.

      That's thing - they did, which both you and the 'old engineer' seem to be unaware of. (However the commercial aircraft of the era were much lighter - and the analysis only took into acount impact damage, not the subsequent fire.)
       
       

      Why stop there? What about earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados, tsunamis, or meteorites?

      Almost certainly the WTC design took hurricanes into account - as the New York area does see one now and again (as a 'century storm'). Buildings along the West coast certainly take earthquakes into account, and many buildings in the Midwest take tornadoes into account (in providing shelters of nothing else).
       
       

      It is not engineering that is overly concerned with cost to benefit ratios, that responsibility falls on management and/or accounting. If engineering comes up with two designs for a bridge, where one is under budget and lacks redundancy and the other is over budget and but incorporates redundancy, it is management or the customer that must decide what is most important.

      Actually - that's almost completely false. Engineering (almost always) has standards that it must meet, regardless of cost. Thus, the engineer has to know the budget and account for it in his design in order that it meets the standards within the budget, even if it does not quite meet the specifications.
       
       

      Now some people may say that engineering has an ethical responsibility to build the best product, which may be true. But how does one do that, by quitting their job every time that don't get their way?

      Actually, here in the US civil engineers (and many other types) are licensed and regulated - if one knowingly signs off on a deficient design, at a minimum he is likely to lose that certification. As well, he or the company he works for, is very likely to liable for damages.
    13. Re:ironic by Ron+Bennett · · Score: 1

      All that jet fuel rapidly burned off, far before the 1 and 2 towers collapsed.

      What most likely caused, according to experts, the 1 and 2 towers to collapse was structure failure of the connections of floor struts due to the heat of furnishings, etc burning (note again, the jet fuel rapidly burned off in the first few moments) and heating the steel, which was poorly insulated...

      The floor struts warped, floor connections to the curtain wall failed, causing floors to fall onto the floor below them - now that at first wouldn't be a problem, but once multiple floors fell upon each other, the load limit of the remaining floors below them would rapidly be exceeded; run-away chain reaction leading to total building collapse.

      In short, there was no redundency of the floors themselves - using no columns came with a huge tradeoff - large columnless spaces for more usable office space, but risk of major disaster if more than 2 floors callapsed upon each other...

      WTC 1 & 2 were fantastic structures for sure, but were built on the cheap - what reportly made matters worse on 9-11 ... was the use of drywall instead of concrete in some portions of the core, and less / thinner steel utilized in the core and floor / curtain wall connections than what should have been for that type of structure.

      Ron

    14. Re:ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTC is a poor example in general though; they were apparently built to withstand the impact of a 737.

    15. Re:ironic by TheLink · · Score: 1

      I bet the other reason is you only see the ones still standing ;).

      --
    16. Re:ironic by hobbesmaster · · Score: 1

      How well can you really understand why a bridge stands up without even Newton's understanding of physics and math?

    17. Re:ironic by Temporal · · Score: 1

      What funding do you propose we cut in order to find money to make bridges ever-so-slightly safer? Shall we cut funding for schools? Reduce the police force? Neglect other roads in need of repair?

      Bridges in the western world already have an extremely low failure rate. Reducing it further would require an enormous investment for almost no gain. There are much better ways that we can spend that money.

    18. Re:ironic by king-manic · · Score: 1

      What funding do you propose we cut in order to find money to make bridges ever-so-slightly safer? Shall we cut funding for schools? Reduce the police force? Neglect other roads in need of repair?

      Bridges in the western world already have an extremely low failure rate. Reducing it further would require an enormous investment for almost no gain. There are much better ways that we can spend that money.


      Take money from various projects like the multi billion dollar war, or various graft projects awarded to Lockheed and Martin / Boeing and the various other money pits? How about revamping the US Medicare system so the Feds don't spend twice as much per person as the Canadians do for 1/3 the results. I think if there was enough transparency and political pressure the US could be a great place again.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    19. Re:ironic by Temporal · · Score: 1

      Yes, sure, but even if you did all those things, there would still be better things to spend money on than safer bridges. The fact is that our bridges are already quite safe, and the incident in Minneapolis is probably the result of a mistake made during the road work that was going on at the time more than it is the fault of the bridge's original design.

    20. Re:ironic by Agripa · · Score: 1

      Stone construction where only compressive forces are used has the advantage that scaling can be used almost indiscriminately. When doubling the size all lengths double, all areas go up by 4 times, and the mass goes up by 8 times. The doubled compressive forces are insignificant to the strength of the stone so it is possible to get by with very simple rules instead of exhaustive mathematical analysis.

      Eventually of course you have problems as the medieval cathedral builders and other found out however they were really pushing the state of the art unlike the Romans whose bridge designs often had a static load safety factors exceeding 100 if you exclude their foundations.

      Modern structures tend to be limited by buckling which Euler figured out a little more then 200 years ago.

    21. Re:ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      False. There is a time value to money regardless of whether or not you invest. So you build the 50-year bridge at a cost of 0.9X (where 1.0X is the unlimited-life bridge). Take that 0.1X saved and invest towards any purpose that outpaces bridge-construction inflation by 5% (or not - it doesn't matter if you only tax to the 0.9X level). At the end of 50 years, you have ~1.15X - enough to build the unlimited-life bridge and have 0.15X left over. So building a lifespan into the project saved 0.1X up front, nets 0.15X in 50 years, and STILL leads to an unlimited-life bridge (unless you take smart course of action and build another 0.9X bridge).

      Moreso, the difference between a 50-year bridge and an unlimited-life bridge may be a lot more than 0.9X versus 1.0X. Even moreso, benefits might only accrue with the Infini-Bridge (TM) if you don't spend money inspecting/repairing - or maybe somehow self-inspection / reporting is built in. Who knows. Generally, things are not built to last forever - even when they are built to last forever. It is a quirk of some design/matieral combinations that no significant degradation occurs over long time spans.

      How can you not know this, Mr 19371?

    22. Re:ironic by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      When you take everything into account, and darn the cost, the structure you end up with is a pyramid. Which is not so great on floor space, and a very poor choice for crossing bodies of water.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    23. Re:ironic by CmdrPorno · · Score: 1

      Reports I have read indicate that if they had used real asbestos insulation, the heat would have been contained and the buildings probably would not have collapsed. Asbestos was only used in some parts of construction.

      --
      Sent from my iPhone
    24. Re:ironic by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 1

      While I agree that avoided costs are important to consider, the problem with that argument is that you need to understand all the risks you face, the likelihood of occurance, and how changes to a design might impact other issues.

      Two simple examples are the changes to the building code after the Northridge earthquake, and designing for floor vibration in a high rise. In the second case, a 100 storey building that needs a two inch deeper structure to reduce vibrations to a level where optical microscopes work would likely force two floors to be eliminated. Why design for that, unless there is a specific requirement for it? It isn't prudent engineering!

      For the earthquake designs, what do you do if you have a perfectly good building that doesn't meet current codes? California forced upgrades on all of the hospitals, but not office buildings. Do you spend 20% of the building replacement cost to retrofit a 10 year old building with a likely life of 30 years against a 10% chance of an earthquake that would red-tag the building occurring in the next 50 years?

      It's great to prevent loss of life, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

    25. Re:ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This bridge was designed by modern engineers who have no sense of beauty and think they can calculate every decision on the basis of cost/benefit.

      Just north of the I-35W bridge is an old stone arch bridge built in 1883. It originally was a railroad bridge, but now it's resurfaced for pedestrian and bicycle traffic.

      While its 'beauty' is debatable, one thing you'll notice about it is that it blocks river traffic. They had to replace two of the arches with a steel truss section over the lock, so that large boats could pass underneath.

      The point is, the bridge that collapsed may have been a compromise on many levels, but the advantage of having a single arch was a tangible benefit, beauty notwithstanding.

    26. Re:ironic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > WTC is a poor example in general though; they were apparently built to withstand the impact of a 737.

      While that's true, it's also misleading - which is why you see conspiracy theorists latching onto it as 'evidence' that the planes didn't bring down the towers.

      Actually, the engineers merely meant that the structure was strong enough to withstand the equivalent force of a jet impact, not that the towers were actually designed to cope with an actual jet tearing through the building, the ensuing fires, etc.

      And they were right! The towers did not collapse immediately upon impact. The floors above the impact sites did not immediately topple over or shear off. The buildings didn't crumple in the middle. Unfortunately the floors below the impact sites were not (in fact COULD not be) built strongly enough to bear the load of all the floors above collapsing downward onto them, when the supports securing them to the frame gave way.

    27. Re:ironic by quax · · Score: 1

      Glad this was cleared up. Stupid, stupid romans.

    28. Re:ironic by quax · · Score: 1

      Always welcome to see a comment moderated favorably but really I was going for *funny* - empires never last forever. So let's all take some solace that while the US empire crumbles at least we did not overspend on the infrastructure.

    29. Re:ironic by adolf · · Score: 1

      It's great to prevent loss of life, but you have to draw the line somewhere.

      I thought that I did.

      Cheers!

    30. Re:ironic by mangastudent · · Score: 1

      They did use an asbestos based insulation up to a certain height, when NYC joined the anti-asbestos hysteria (if it was as bad as they said back then, we'd all be dead by now, the dose makes the poison and all that).

      And the supplier of that material said "if there's a fire above the [insert right floor numbers], it's going to fail.

      BUT, the ballistic damage to load bearing members caused by the impact certainly stripped off a lot of insulation, didn't matter how fire resistant it was. The impact angles were planned to cause the maximum damage in this way, and as I remember the terrorist pilots for the most part achieved them.

      As has been commented before, all in all the WTC design and construction is a testament to quality, the outcome could have been lots worse. Me, I'm impressed by how they pancaked instead of toppling over, it would have been worse if they'd fallen on top of other buildings (part of the plan of the first bombing was to cause that tower to fall on the other one---too bad for them the explosives prematured before the vehicle got into place...).

  15. In other words:The Science of Bridge Construction by viking80 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Usually "The Science of Bridge Collapse Prevention" is called "The Science of Bridge Construction"

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
  16. How about building bridges like the romans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    that last 2000 years or more?
    Little maintenance.
    No sensors.
    No inspections.
    No reports.

    1. Re:How about building bridges like the romans by wkitchen · · Score: 1

      And how many heavily loaded trucks drive across those each day?

    2. Re:How about building bridges like the romans by Jeek+Elemental · · Score: 1

      it was tried, but construction workers were generally opposed to wearing togas.

    3. Re:How about building bridges like the romans by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No ten-thousand-car rush hours.

    4. Re:How about building bridges like the romans by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Of course all the surviving Roman bridges are well built. All the crappy ones fell down centuries ago and are long forgotten.

  17. Isn't it too late? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    By the time you can hear the little beams cracking, isn't it too late? Isn't the roadway in a free fall within an instant?

  18. So it looks like were all in agreement... by weak* · · Score: 3, Insightful
    ...that someone we're paying with our tax dollars either fucked up or didn't care. Now what? Can we simply vote for better people? Of course not: history demonstrates conclusively that these better people don't exist, don't want the job, or go unnoticed (largely because the general public doesn't have the time or the means or the interest to assess the competence of prospective officials). So what do we do to put qualified people into positions responsible for our welfare, and hold them accountable once they're there?

    It's a hard question, so I think I'll just ignore it, in light of the sad truth that a month from now, no one (who doesn't have a personal connection to the tragedy) will care. To hell with "doomed to repeat it."

    --
    The Schwartz space ain't from Spaceballs.
    1. Re:So it looks like were all in agreement... by blitz487 · · Score: 1

      I look forward to our health care being managed by this same process!

  19. My technique by TopSpin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have a method of Minnesota infrastructure maintenance that can assure sound bridges. My technique involves billing the Twins owner for the $392 million of government revenue (collected via a sale tax hike) being used to fund the new $522 million baseball stadium. My technique also involves continuing to dash the hopes of Minnesota football fans for a new government funded $0.5 billion football stadium. Instead, let the team owners rely on sports geek revenue to fund their stadiums, and misappropriate the tax revenue into infrastructure.

    On the other hand, perhaps it isn't necessary to piss off all the Minnesota sports geeks (read: voters) and instead utilize the $2 billion dollar state surplus to deal with the states bridges. But alas, there are voters to buy with that money.

    This is about the priorities of the citizens of a staggeringly wealthy nation being focused on everything but the infrastructure.

    --
    Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
    1. Re:My technique by couchslug · · Score: 1

      What a terrible idea!
      Look at the benefits New Orleans got by attracting the Saints instead of spending that money on tacky flood control...

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    2. Re:My technique by TopSpin · · Score: 1

      Look at the benefits New Orleans got by attracting the Saints instead of spending that money on tacky flood control... Peace Brother. I hear you.

      --
      Lurking at the bottom of the gravity well, getting old
  20. Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What a joke. We've been building bridges for the whole of recorded history, and some of them have stood for much of that time. We have the capability and have had it for centuries if not millenia to build a bridge that doesn't fall. We just have to pay attention and maintain what we build. It's not THAT hard.

    Maybe if we stop worrying about falsely exaggerated threats like terrorism and manufactured problems like the war on in Iraq, we'll have more than adequate resources to build a really damn good infrastructure, and then things like the bridge collapse in Minneapolis and the steam main explosion in NYC wouldn't ever happen.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by petermgreen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We've been building bridges for the whole of recorded history, and some of them have stood for much of that time.
      and i'm sure many of them haven't

      sure if you build a stone arch accross a narrow vally in an area with no sismic problems then it will stay up for a very long time, especially if the area is too dry for much plant life. However it will be very expensive for the ammount of utility it gives.

      but of course we want more, we want our longest bridges longer, we want all our bridges able to stand being packed with heavy lorries we want to bridge accross fault lines and so on and of course like with everything we want it as cheaply as possible. The result is much narrower safety margins and use of new materials and construction styles which may suffer unanticipated problems. There is also the human nature to ignore problems until they become critical.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    2. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by MichaelSmith · · Score: 2, Interesting

      We just have to pay attention and maintain what we build. It's not THAT hard.

      I used to work for the state highway authority, working on traffic signals. When I was there the entire bridge department were made redundant and replaced by contractors. No matter how much you document these things, you still need continuity from one generation to the next. The old guys have to be around to tell the young guys to look out for this and that, or it may cause problems.

      But it is cheaper to outsource.

    3. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by king-manic · · Score: 1

      used to work for the state highway authority, working on traffic signals. When I was there the entire bridge department were made redundant and replaced by contractors. No matter how much you document these things, you still need continuity from one generation to the next. The old guys have to be around to tell the young guys to look out for this and that, or it may cause problems.

      But it is cheaper to outsource.


      I find the notion of contractors comical. basically you pay 3 times the amount to them so that if you need to, you can fire them. Makes sens for things you don't always need but upper management seem to want them for everything even basic money making tasks and as far as I've seen within my own corporation.. it doesn't work well. You get all the sloth and inefficiencies of full time employees with the additional benefit of having no attachment to the job and the need to fill quota without doing things right. A buddy of mine works as a cable contract installer. Makes good coin because he does such an incredibly shitty but quick job when he's on the clock. The things he does will eventually bite his corp int he ass but by then he'll be off to greener pastures.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
    4. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      It's not really 3x as much. It just looks that way to salaried employees because they fail to consider the value of their benefits and "employer-paid" taxes. For instance, contractors have to pay both their personal 7% FICA and the "business matching" 7% FICA. Contractors must pay for their own health insurance, which is much more than the tax mentioned previously. Contractors must plan for more periods of unemployment.

      All things considered, your own cost to the company is probably close to ~2x your salary, so the 3x contractor is making more, but not as much more as you've represented.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    5. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by rcastro0 · · Score: 1

      A buddy of mine works as a cable contract installer. Makes good coin because he does such an incredibly shitty but quick job when he's on the clock.

      I am trying to follow you but I am missing your solution to this issue.
      What exactly would make your buddy *not* do a shitty job ? Why ?

      --
      Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
    6. Re:Bridge collapse prevention "someday" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I recall from my mostly forgotten civil engineering degree, the problem isn't building a structure that can stand up today, but that the load a structure such as a bridge will be expected to support and will be able to support changes over time.

      With the best will in the world, it is next to impossible to accurately gauge the load bearing capacity of 50, 60 or even 100 year old bridges. All that you can do is assess the structure as best you can and factor any uncertainties into the tolerances (which are an order of magnitude greater in civil engineering than in, say, mechanical engineering).

      I've seen some news items on US websites which do a good job explaining some problems such as fatigue loading and hint at the fact that assessing old structures is not an exact science, even if there was no negligence involved

  21. Here's an easy way by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

    Stop building goddamn sports stadiums and zoo exhibits and concentrate on what's important.

  22. Whats the difference? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What is the difference between an American freeway bridge and a lasagna?

    Nothing.

  23. Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by BanjoBob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Maybe we should go back to stone and mortar bridges. Today's bridges in America don't last very long and they never meet the roadway without a bump or a dip. Many are obsolete or too small by the time they are even completed. Modern engineering doesn't stand a chance to the builders of yesterday.

    Take a look at the famed Rialto Bridge in Venice, Italy. This bridge was built almost 500 years ago and still stands even after numerous earthquakes in the region.

    Then there is the stone bridge in the Czech Republic, the Charles Bridge that is a short 650 years old. Listed in the "Most Beautiful Bridges of the World", it was built in 1357 to replace an earlier bridge that was destroyed. It's still functioning fine.

    Lets trek on over to Aberdeen, Scotland and their Brig o Balgownie bridge dating from 1286 and still in use today.

    Even in the United States, we have 165 year old High Bridge in New York and Steel Bridge in Oregon that are both in use and good condition today. Although not stone bridges, they were built to last.

    Now, we have a 40 year old bridge collapsing yesterday and a 35 year old bridge being completely replaced here. The Woodman bridge has a huge bump in it that will almost certainly remove your air-dam if you go the posted 40 MPH speed limit. A small bridge in Denver had to be replaced about 10 years ago and it was only about 10 years old. It seems that we are no longer capable of building a bridge that will last.

    One must ask why with all the advances in science and engineering during the past 5 centuries why we can't build a decent bridge today? Why can't we have a street and bridge meet so the pavement is the same level? Why don't we build bridges like they used to? Even aquaducts built 15 centuries ago are still supplying water to Istanbul.

    Obviously, when it's cheaper to build a bridge like the one in Minneapolis-St. Paul that only lasts 40 years and only kills a few people during its lifetime, but will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to cleanup, law suits and to replace, one must ask where are the priorities? Why not build a bridge to last centuries instead of decades? Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run?

    We just don't make them like we used to. Somewhere along the line, the need to have something last has been lost. Are our bridges disposable commodities like the cars we drive across them? It does make one wonder.

    --
    Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
    1. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Show me significant amount of car and truck traffic going over those ancient bridges and then we can talk...

    2. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Those bridges weren't constructed with having nearly 150K vehicles regularly going over them every 24 hours. The ancient civilizations had marvelous constructions, no doubt. There's no structure built in the past 100 years that will last as long as half of what was build in Rome lasted. However, we abuse our infrastructures a hell of a lot more than they did.

    3. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Maybe we should go back to stone and mortar bridges. Today's bridges in America don't last very long

      Maybe you should learn a little bit about bridges - over 80% of the major ones are at least forty years old, and a good number are getting pretty close to the century mark. A handful are well past the century mark.
       
      Equally, there are more than a few stone bridges in Europe that have collapsed (some within decades of construction - at least one in mid construction).
       
       

      One must ask why with all the advances in science and engineering during the past 5 centuries why we can't build a decent bridge today? Why can't we have a street and bridge meet so the pavement is the same level?

      We can, and do - once you stop making the mistake of generalizing from a tiny sample.
    4. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by Archtech · · Score: 1

      I don't think there's any problem with engineering or engineers. It's a matter of allocating resources (i.e. tax money).

      Henry Petroski dealt with this problem 15 years ago in his brilliant book "To Engineer is Human". Among other good points, he noted that each new engineering "technology" (such as building ships, aircraft, bridges, or cathedrals) goes through a predictable life-cycle.

      1. Not well understood. Structures collapse unexpectedly (like the Tacoma Narrows bridge, the Comet IV airliner, or Beauvais Cathedral) because their builders simply do not know how to make them safe.

      2. Well understood. Eventually, by various means, engineers develop reliable methods of building structures safely. In due course, they begin to build in substantial safety factors - often up to 100% or more - that make their products extremely reliable. (Ever hear one of those stories about a submarine rated to dive to, say, 250 metres, that actually survived on the seabed at 310 metres? Try reading Das Boot, or if you have less time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush_depth).

      3. Building the given structure becomes big business, and is done wholesale. Economics takes over, and safety factors come rattling down again until there are a few highly-publicized disasters. Uh-oh, profits go down. So the safety factor is edged up a smidgen until disasters don't happen often enough to threaten profits, and that is our long-term equilibrium.

      Democracy and free enterprise - dontcha love it?

      --
      I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
    5. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by turing_m · · Score: 1

      There are numerous causes. Election time spans, political lifespans, the compound interest equation (time value of money, NPV, IRR etc). There is also mass immigration, ethnic cleansing and wealth redistribution to take into account. Is it rational of the conch to spend its entire life building a home for the hermit crab?

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    6. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Masonry bridges are capable of handling heavy traffic. They are incredibly strong. The problem is that it's very difficult to accurately (or even approximately) assess their condition and hence how strong they are, so they are not properly maintainable. It is our (reasonable) desire for certainty rather than our traffic that rules them out. And they are very expensive.

    7. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 1

      Show me *any* major structure that will last 100 years with minimal maintenance in a place where the climate is as volatile as Minnesota's climate, where temperatures range from -20F to 100+F a year. And that's in the cities, where the heat island effect is exceptionaly noticable in the winter.

    8. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Somewhere along the line, the need to have something last has been lost."

      The profit motive coupled with customer demands may have something to do with it. A cheaper bridge with less metal and fewer piers means a contractor can underbid the competition.
      If the customer does not demand the right product, the contractor is faced with doing what they can to win the bid.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    9. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by calidoscope · · Score: 1

      Even in the United States, we have 165 year old High Bridge in New York and Steel Bridge in Oregon that are both in use and good condition today.


      Don't forget the Thomas viaduct built in 1831 and the Starrucca viaduct built in the 1850's. Both are still in use as railroad bridges.

      --
      A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    10. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by BanjoBob · · Score: 1

      My problem isn't the 100 years. We've got 10-year old bridges falling apart around here. One had a huge section fall onto the interstate highway a year ago. They just replace a 10-year old bridge north of us for the same reason - it was falling apart. Even the new bridge over the creek and train tracks is off by almost a foot on each side where it meets the street. They have huge bump signs and almost 45 degree ramps on each side. Why can't we make a bridge and the street the same height where they meet?

      Where many of these ancient bridges are also have extreme weather. Why do their stand and MNs fall? You can't blame it on the weather.

      --
      Banjo - The more I know about Windoze, the more I love *nix
    11. Re:Bridge Engineering Isn't What It Used To Be... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If an engineer puts forward a bridge design that has a 100 year design life for $100M, and one with a 500 year design life for $300M, do you really think a politician will choose the 500 year design?

  24. please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    + this if you can

  25. I just wanted to say thanks for the dept. name. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because Soul Coughing is fundamentally beautiful.

    1. Re:I just wanted to say thanks for the dept. name. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Second that. The somewhat obscure Soul Coughing reference put a smile on my face.

  26. No one expected the Levies to break. by infonography · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Lets just lay the blame on the knucklehead that got us into this disaster of depleted local resources and the rest of his gang of cronies. His little war has cost devastated the resources and personnel needed to deal with this. this is symptomatic of Katrina and the Iraq War. They were too busy with their wet dreams to pay attention to wet people and cities.

    The Dems may be effective but nobody can match a Republican for Naked Greed.

    See Delay, Stevens, Foley, Rupert Murdoch, Ad nauseam

    --
    Sorry about the writing. Robot fingers, you know? Cliff Steele in DOOM PATROL #23
  27. A collapsing bridge is terrifying by Christoph · · Score: 1

    A massive bridge collapsing underneath you is terrifying, e.g. a source of terror. We could close the thousands of bridges in the US that, like the 35W bridge, are rated "structurally deficient", in the name of preventing "another 8-1". This might help expedite funding to rehab these bridges, and fighting the "terror" of unsafe bridges would fit with our current national priorities.

  28. Boring by smchris · · Score: 1

    What do they have about the _SOCIAL_ science of politicians who say, "Well, it probably won't fall down on _my_ watch so I'm going to be a 'tax-cutter'"?

    Yes, a little testy. From the Cities and watched it from first rumor until dark on the MythTV box. Burned a DVD of the lot. Used to work at U of M and commuted from near South Minneapolis. Remember the bridge well.

    Dumb bitch of the Transportation Commissioner was on the news 10 minutes ago. I just looooved her line about, "Don't any of you accuse me of wanting this bridge to collapse!" Hey, babe. I'd never accuse her of that. That would take THINKING and intention. I'm accusing her of knee-jerk dumber-than-crap Republican sucking of all money out of infrastructure for tax cuts to the rich. And, yes, I can imagine she sincerely _didn't_ want the bridge to collapse because she was "_HOPING_" ("praying"?) it wouldn't so she wouldn't get caught with her pants down where everyone could see how WORTHLESS her Neocon "management" was.

    I'm just waiting to see whether they sell off the right to the Saudis to build a toll bridge over the river now that a convenient and handsome business opportunity has "presented itself". GOD, I HATE REPUBLICANS THIS WEEK.

    1. Re:Boring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe you should worry about the pork barrel spending that goes on, getting term limits for our elected officials, removing their pensions, and getting rid of campaign contributions by corporations, instead of having knee-jerk reactions and buying into all the political garbage on both sides.

  29. Hmmm, 1967 by calidoscope · · Score: 1
    IIRC, the I-35 bridge was built in 1967, so the designers/builders weren't as painfully aware of the importance of redundancy as after the collapse of the Silver Bridge.


    A similar thing happened in California wrt the 1971 Sylmar earthquake. Several bridges of the newly completed I-5 came down, the cause was found to be lack of hoop strength in the re-bar inside the column. Columns built after that used helically wound rebar to keep the column intact under seismic loading. The need for retrofitting was driven home during the 1989 Loma Prieta quake and was further sped up after the 1994 Northridge quake when the reinforced bridges survived and the ones waiting for reinforcement collapsed.

    --
    A Shadeless room is a brighter room.
    1. Re:Hmmm, 1967 by Firethorn · · Score: 1

      and the ones waiting for reinforcement collapsed.

      That's one way to speed up replacement, I guess. Still, I much prefer to ensure that nobody's on the bridge when it comes down. ;)

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
  30. Myth and Rice Crispies by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

    If you put your ear on a train track, you can hear a train approaching from far away

    Has anyone done this before? The bumper sticker on a train reads If you can hear me, your head will be cut off.

    Feel a rail on a track. Long after a train has passed, the track is still hot. I put my ear to the track, but could not hear the train through the rail. This was a rail that has its segments bolted for high speed trains. However, I did hear the train in the air, ear not on rail. The train was a high speed train with a loud diesel. As a wheel passes over the gap between two segments of track, there is a click that is loud enough to be a thunk, but the train would have to be too close before that sound is transmitted through the rail loud enough to be heard over the engine, which is audible when the train is over 2000 metres away and out of sight.

    Trying to listen for the snap, crackle, pop of a bridge may be futile. A traffic bridge would have all kinds of noise from vehicles and surrounding industry. The bridge in Minneapolis crosses a river and a railway. Not a quiet scene.

    --
    Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    1. Re:Myth and Rice Crispies by xaxa · · Score: 1

      It might be easier to feel the vibration by touching the track (make sure it isn't electrified...).

      Railways in Europe have their segments welded, so the segments are effectively much longer, I don't know if this is standard in the USA but Wiki suggests this is the case. This would help you to detect the vibrations. Sound travels much faster through steel than through air, so a vibration detector on the steel will detect the train first.

      The wiki article mentions that the rails are under tension. 10-15 seconds before my train in the morning arrives, the rails make a shimmering noise. I haven't noticed how long the noise can be heard before the train passes (if it isn't scheduled to stop), I'll listen on Monday.

  31. We could use this in Montreal by BeerGood · · Score: 1

    Minneapolis? Heck bridges have been falling down like dominos in Montreal. Why do you think we drive so fast? We want to get by the overpass as quickly as possible!

  32. How acoustics helped parking garage problem by JavaManJim · · Score: 1

    This is a parking garage story.

    About five years ago, a chunk of cement about the size of a football fell on a buddy's car in the parking garage. At that time, the garage was a few years old.

    Engineers were called in and placed acoustic monitors all over the place on many of the beams. Then drove vehicles over them on a couple of weekends.

    Evidently acoustics found anomalies. They determined that the interior cabling was insufficient.

    After a couple of different fix attempts engineers decided on the following.

    Added two reinforcing high tension cables to the outside of each approximately 60 foot beam in that huge parking garage. This involved drilling two six inch holes at the ends of each beam. A heavy wall pipe was put into each hole. Them flanges were welded to the ends of each pipe. Then cabling was strung on each side of the beam. The beams were curved so at the apex of the curve were placed hangers that the cabling went over. This way the cabling did not go directly to the other side but roughly followed the beam's curve.

    This was at headquarters of a national clothing retailer JCP.

    Thanks,
    Jim

  33. Bureaucracy will kill the efforts by bogaboga · · Score: 1
    While there seems to be ways to "listen" and detect potential problems with bridges, I doubt that the bureaucracy of government will ever make the remedies work.

    Coupled with my government's incompetence, bigotry and history of wasting money (read Iraq), it will surely be a wonder if this setup ever works. God help us!

  34. the sky is falling again... by llZENll · · Score: 0, Troll

    Jesus people, I guess it's time to waste a billion dollars making sure all of our bridges our safe, or the terrorists have won. Honestly though, it is sad that innocent people died, but come on, what is the death toll, like 5-20. Everyones attention, money, and time would be much better spent fighting more important problems, like cancer and heart disease. Anything more than having a few engineers look into some old bridges they built is overkill. Are there not laws requiring continual safety reviews of major public structures already?

  35. Say what??? by E++99 · · Score: 1

    Acoustic emissions detection systems, which listen for the sounds of metal snapping on structures are already are being sold and fitted.

    Metal snapping? Why not just listen for motorists screaming? I assume these actually listen for some kind of metal stress sound, rather than actual failure? No, I didn't read TFA, so feel free to ignore me.
    1. Re:Say what??? by Helmholtz+Coil · · Score: 1
      I assume these actually listen for some kind of metal stress sound, rather than actual failure?

      Yep. Say you're looking for cracks. A crack usually grows in fits and spurts-stress builds at the tip (growing edge) of the crack, until the crack grows a little and the stress drops. It's this sudden jump in size that you actually detect with acoustic emission. By the time you get to the metal snapping phase of failure, your acoustic emission sensors have been ringing like bells for weeks/months/years.

  36. The data was already there by michaelmalak · · Score: 2, Informative
    From yesteday's New York Post:

    A 2001 evaluation of the bridge, prepared by the University of Minnesota, reported that there were preliminary signs of fatigue on the steel truss section under the roadway, but no cracking.

    The report said there was no need for the Minnesota Transportation Department to replace the bridge because of fatigue cracking.

    But a May 2006 report by the department noted that inspectors saw fatigue cracks and bending of girders along the span's approaches.

    I.e., in 2001 they barely passed it because they said, "at least there's no cracking." In 2006, they saw cracking but kept the bridge open anyway. At minimum, they should have closed it to heavy truck traffic, scrapped the idea of doing heavy construction (repaving) on the bridge, and started construction of a replacement immediately.

    For more info, see today's Minneapolis Star Tribune article.

    1. Re:The data was already there by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Those locations in the reports describe two different locations. The fatigue cracks were found in the steel girders in the approach spans. Read the 2006 report available at MnDOT. These are spans 1-5 and 9-11. This is not the truss system. The 2006 report does mention the existing fatigue cracks, and in fact recommends further treatment. One crack was mentioned in a stringer, which sits on top of the floor truss - not actually part of the truss. It does not, that I could find in a quick scan, determine that any fatigue cracking occurred in the actual truss.

      Anonymous Structural PE

    2. Re:The data was already there by hmeister · · Score: 1

      Not really. Engineering inspection data is valid only the minute the team completes the job. We know nothing about the condition of a structure the minute after they have left. A great example happened in Montreal last September 30 (2006). The bridge was inspected in the morning (ater a report of a fallen piece of concrete) and deemed "sound." Two hours later the bridge collapsed. Sadly, there were casualties and people perished. Real time monitoring is the only solution for priorotizing maintenance and warning the public.

  37. Irrelevant by 2010 by jgarra23 · · Score: 1

    In 2010 we'll have flying cars and those skateboards from BTTF Part 2 so we'll just fly over these places that need bridges.

  38. benefit analysis by fermion · · Score: 2, Insightful
    What all this misses is there are armies of accountants wieghing risks of an accident against costs to prevent the accident. The system is not perfect, but it is the one we have, and the one we will likely continue to have. Most of the technology in this article is not new. It simply requires a higher budget. Certainly, we could spend money to better detect fatique, but in a worl or limited resouces, is the best use of money to reduce risk?

    Perhaps if this accident killed hundreds of people, and resulted in a settlement of tens of billion of dollars, then the landscape might shift. Or, if like automobile manufacturers of past, we find that the accountants are making fundamental compromises of safety merely because the cost of a human life is less than the cost of implementing the features.

    About the only thing that does not fall under this risk analysis is the military. This is why they can get away with spending 100 billion dollars a year with only a discrediting italian letter to substantiate the claim, a letter not even endorsed by the US government, but by the british. Otherwise we have to use the imperfect system of where to spend our money and where not to. I don't suppose that we are going to see an increase in taxes, or the removal of the new corporate welfare incorporated a few years ago, or a reduction in say in money spent on standardized test for kids. i think we can have anything we want if it is really worth sacrificing.

    --
    "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
  39. My 2 step plan for avoiding bridge collapse by The+Famous+Druid · · Score: 1

    1. Engineer tells politician bridge needs fixed.
    2. Politician tells engineer "Ok, fix it".

    Sadly, the more common scenario is...

    1. Engineer tells politician bridge needs fixed.
    2. Politician is too busy bragging about his "low tax government" to listen.
    3. Bridge falls over.
    4. Politician calls an official enquiry, staffed by his cronies, which blames the engineer.

    --
    Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum videtur (anything said in Latin sounds important)
    1. Re:My 2 step plan for avoiding bridge collapse by ErikZ · · Score: 1

      What are you talking about?

      They made plenty of money from low government taxes. So much that they were going to build a new baseball stadium with 70% of the costs coming from taxes.

      What they did wrong was decide to fix the surface of the bridge instead of the foundation of the bridge first.

      There's a point where taxes get so low that you're not bringing in more money. But taxing is so easy for any government to do, that they're usually pushing the high end of the envelope.

      Meaning, cut back taxes, which puts more money into the economy, speeding it up, which brings in more tax money.

      --
      Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
  40. Reminds me of a lecture I once heard... by ChePibe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I had the opportunity to take a course on U.S. Intelligence and National Security from a gentleman who had worked on the Senate Intelligence Committee as a staffer for 10 years during the Cold War, specifically during the Carter and Reagan administrations.

    Discussing the politics of funding, he pointed out that it was easy - very, very easy - to get funding for new photo and signals intelligence sattelites, listening equipment, spy planes, and toys. He noted that, yes, some lobbying went on for these projects, but the lobbying isn't what swayed Congress - it was the new and shiny. They could all go home and say to themselves "wow, I put up a massive spy sattelite that can photograph buttons on Russian officers!"

    However, when it came to support for this equipment - analysts to look at the data they gathered, technicians to keep them running, maintenance facilities, etc. - they always came up short. In some instances, multi-million dollar pieces of equipment were purchased and deployed only to have the data they gathered analyzed only long after it was too old to be useful, assuming it was ever analyzed at all.

    I realize that this post is a bit off topic, but the problem of not supporting what is already there exists all through government. In the case of this bridge, shutting it down would have met with massive protest from all involved. Projects would have caused inconvenience, just as increased personnel staffing creates great cost for the government in many areas. People do the same thing all the time - buy new cars and toys, but never spend the money on maintenance, it all went to the toy. But if we build it or buy it we better be able to keep it in good shape.

    1. Re:Reminds me of a lecture I once heard... by king-manic · · Score: 2, Funny


      I realize that this post is a bit off topic, but the problem of not supporting what is already there exists all through government. In the case of this bridge, shutting it down would have met with massive protest from all involved. Projects would have caused inconvenience, just as increased personnel staffing creates great cost for the government in many areas. People do the same thing all the time - buy new cars and toys, but never spend the money on maintenance, it all went to the toy. But if we build it or buy it we better be able to keep it in good shape.


      I wish they didn't have a 5 karma max on modding.

      --
      "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  41. What about the flooding in Dubai? by br4nd0nh3at · · Score: 0

    Though I don't people anyone died, the flood in Dubai is also interesting news today along with this.

    1. Re:What about the flooding in Dubai? by GamerCowboy · · Score: 1

      There isn't any flooding in Dubai.

      --
      void
  42. When I think of civil engineering... by r_jensen11 · · Score: 1

    ...I think of Computer World!

  43. We can do both by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    It's not a zero-sum game. We're a superpower for Christ sake! There's no reason for us to not do both. And both, my I remind you, are of national interests. The idea that we can do only one or the other is short sighted.

    Second point. The bridge problem was first spotted in 1990. That's 17 years ago. Also, (like New Orleans) the public infrastructure funding falls squarely at the state level, NOT federal.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
    1. Re:We can do both by rolfwind · · Score: 1

      We're a superpower for Christ sake!
      That title will be lost fast the way we are tossing money around.

      There's no reason for us to not do both.
      Um, let me see. We are borrowing about $3 billion dollars a day, mostly from Chinese and Japanese investors, to do this nation building. Also, we are robbing our citizens to give to their citizens for some unfathomable reason. They hate us more and more every passing day. Our troops are getting killed. The longer we stay, the more entrenched Al-Queda becomes in Iraq. We are making the corporations with contracts (read: Haliburton) filthy fucking rich.

      I would still be against nation building in any case, but at least it could have been done the correct way from the beginning. That would have been, in 2003, to secure Iraq by taking the entire existing army and keep them on the payroll to keep law and order. Slowly we could have de-baathtized the army by weeding out the undesirable commanders and political soldiers. (As opposed to telling them all to go home, put them out of work, and give Al-Queda a bunch of trained, young, disaffected, disillusioned, out-of-work military men to recruit).

      Secondly, instead of bringing in US contracting companies to build up the country - charging an arm and a leg per contractor (as high as $25,000 per month) - we put the Iraq people to work building up their own country. These are people who would work for less than $1000 a year and be happy. Surely they know masonry, plumbing, and other trades. Afterall, there were buildings there when we bombed the shit out of that country!

      With the army keeping the country secure, and people in work, insurgency would not have flourished, capitalism would be in full bloom, and maybe democracy too.

      Now the best thing would be to get the hell out. The window of opportunity closed on us. Even if we are a superpower. (Rome was one too. It fell.)

      Second point. The bridge problem was first spotted in 1990. That's 17 years ago. Also, (like New Orleans) the public infrastructure funding falls squarely at the state level, NOT federal.
      I agree completely. People should be held accountable. But also, with lower federal taxes, we may be able to raise more local taxes (not that it should demolish the savings over federal tax) for these thing.

      But first thing first, hold the responsible people accountable. They caused deaths.
    2. Re:We can do both by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Iraq was the wrong thing to do (It destablized the region and made it more fanatical), at the wrong time (It basically made us lose Afganistan), for the wrong reasons (What the hell were the reasons again?), in the wrong way (You listed these above).

      Don't go around pretending only one mistake was made. :(

      We had a choice between door A (fight terrorism as a military action (in places it actually existed)), door B (fight it at the political level), and/or door C (fight it via the legal system). I'm a big fan of B and C, but A is needed sometimes.

      Instead we walked over, shoddily constructed a door Q that obviously didn't open. We then attempted to open it and managed to pull it on top of ourselves (Look how fast Saddam's army surrendered! Look how fast it's coming down right on top of us!), and are now starving to death under it. More and more it's looking less like a mistake and more like some sort of treason. It's very hard to conceive a more harmful thing for us to have done.

      Also, we should not, unless there's some sort of emergency depression or something, lower taxes until we have some of this damn debt paid off. Hell, we should raise them.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    3. Re:We can do both by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      David, you're an idiot.

      I'm not going to rehash the whole Iraq issue, been there done that on slashdot. However, you are soooo wrong when it comes to taxes. It's been proven time and time again that lowering encourages economic growth. Both Ragan and GWB have proven this!

      Put it to you this way. When it comes to achieving economic growth, you must maintain a proper taxation ratio much the same way you must maintain a proper fuel/air ratio in an engine. Tax too much, and you slow down economic growth and further hinder tax revenue. Tax too little, and you end up with a lack of public services being funded (education, fire, police, military...etc). Currently, we are being taxed way too much!!!

      Here's a better idea, David. How about we cut the pork spending both this and the previous administrations set in motion.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:We can do both by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      It's not been 'proven time and time again'. It's been asserted time and time again, with actually no evidence whatsoever to back it up, and in a fact quite quite a lot of evidence that tax rates have almost an unnoticible effect on the economy. See here. That's simply propaganda from rich people who want less taxes, and has never been observed in any form.

      And some of the largest periods of economic growth in this country have, in fact, coincided with large tax rates, like the recovery from the Great Depression. Yes, that was WWII, but the reason it got us out of the Depression is that the government taxed people and then spent the money.

      There's absolutely no logical reason that taking money from people and spending it in the US would hinder the economy in any way. Yes, going all the way to a place where government orders account for a large proportion of the GDP might result in screwy manufacturing decisions by companies. But if the government pays someone to lay down a new road, or, say, repair a bridge, that is actual money spent that will end up in people's pockets.

      What doesn't help the economy is taking money from some people and giving it to others. (It doesn't hinder anything, though, it mainly just confuses things.) Taking money from some people and spending it on actual products that people compete to produce, and then the government consumes, or allows use for free (like the highway system), does help the economy.

      Of course, I suggested taking money from people and paying off the debt with it, which is not spending it in the US, but, while that may not help the economy, it will certainly help with increasing government revenue in the future, simply because there will be less interest to pay, so we can pretty much automatically have lower taxes in the future, so I have no idea what the hell you're whining about.

      Which demonstrates the silliness of yammering abut 'the economy'...the GDP is an artifical construct that, while useful, is not the end-all and be-all of tax policy. There are ways to get, with the same GDP and the same tax rate, more government revenue to spend, like, as I said, the big one, stop paying so much goddamn interest on the debt.

      If the collected taxes actually lowers economic growth, something which is entirely unproven, it will still be a net gain if it reduces interest on the debt more than enough to counter out the decrease in revenue. And as this 'revenue-decreasing effect' has to be incredibly small to never be demonstrated before, that's entirely likely.

      And if we really care so much about increasing the GDP, there are a few things we should worry about before taxes, like stopping large companies from leaving this country. And possible stop things like the housing bubble collapse, which is the actual economy instability right now, from happening. We could have, I dunno, regulation that takes effect when things get out of control and calms things down. Wait, we already have that. Well, we could have an executive branch willing to actually use it five fucking years ago when it might have helped.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  44. I Have an Idea by Greyfox · · Score: 0, Troll
    When the bridge is rated the second worst thing it can be rated during an inspection, maybe someone should actually fix the goddamn thing! I think there might be some sort of cause and effect relationship there. When guys who know about bridges tell you your bridge sucks, you fix it! Same thing goes for when your dam guys tell you your dam can't withstand a hit from that category 5 hurricane that's coming right for you, maybe you should think about, oh I don't know... evacuating your city!

    Perhaps, and I'm going out on a limb here, but stay with me here... maybe if we wouldn't elect people who are fucktarded to positions of power and maybe if we didn't stand for it when they appoint their fucktarded and inexperienced cronies to tell them what they want to hear instead of what's actually going on, maybe we wouldn't have problems like this. Now I admit, the fucktarded person is appealing. He's promising that if you elect him he'll crap flowers and fairies and all sorts of other shit that could not possibly be funded in the current situation. But you know all he's going to do is loot the state and leave all the citizens holding the bag. So for God's sake just use some common sense and try to vote for the guy who sounds like he will, too.

    Blah. You know no one will be held responsible for this, and I'm willing to bet that there's a single person who said "You know what, that bridge will hold up for another year..." when they were redirecting those highway funds to some other pet project.

    --

    I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?

    1. Re:I Have an Idea by hidave · · Score: 1

      You are 99% right on! The other 1% is for the time when we only have enough money to fix one bridge but have two bridges that need maintenance. Should I close the other one? Oops, there goes my job. Well, it might last another year.....

      --
      Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
  45. We can do neither by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Or at least, that's what recent evidence suggests.

  46. Mod +infinite "Absolutly right" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    A huge cost in almost anything is simple maintenance. Simply keeping what is currently in use functioning, it is also the easiest to cut spending on because usually the effects won't be immidiate.

    It doesn't matter wether it is something huge like defence spending or seemingly trivial like road sweeping. If you don't keep spending the needed money on it sooner or later you are going to find that all of sudden you have an army with equipment that is falling apart and roads that are filthy.

    Exactly what is happening right now in holland, the dutch army finds itself involved in the afghan conflict (right wrong, does not matter for this discussion) and that all the years of defence cuts have resulted in the equipment just not being up to the task. It is a good thing in some ways that it is being found out in afghanistan and NOT in a conflict that directly treathens dutch security.

    The dutch also used to be known for their clean streets, recently the dutch themselves voted their own country as one of the filthiest in europe.

    You can see the same thing in holland (and england and the US) with the rail system, years of neglect resulted in the american rail system being a joke, some massive accidents in england and the dutch system is slowly falling apart with increasing outages and even accidents (dutch railways used to be extremely safe)

    But hey, as you say, anybody who would try to raise the money (taxes) to combat this and make sure that what we come to rely upon remains in a fit condition would not just get voted out of office, they would never get a change to get into office in the first place.

    Don't worry, before the last bodies have been buried in this latest avoidable disaster, some politician will have promised to reduce taxes (offcourse never by cutting their own salaries) and the people will vote for it the first change they get.

  47. Playing with lives... by lymib · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Back when I worked for a government office, we were housed in a building that was collapsing. One corner was over a foot lower than the other three and sinking. Huge chunks of bricks were falling off the building. There was a lawsuit over some renovations that were done to the building that allegedly caused the instability. A "feasibility study" was done to determine whether they should spend money to move us all to emergency facilities until a new building was erected, or just take a chance at the building collapsing and having to pay out wrongful death lawsuits. It was determined that "chances are" the building will last and it was financially better to take the chance of hundreds of deaths. (Luckily, the lawsuit was settled pretty quickly and we were moved out within a year and the building was demolished.) I can't help but wonder if the same kind of "feasibility studies" are done on our nations bridges and infrastructure. "Money over lives" is chosen far too often by the powers that be, both governmental and corporate. These new testing methods are just a way to make money off tragedy. We already know what the problem is, we just need to decide that it's "feasible" to fix it.

    1. Re:Playing with lives... by hidave · · Score: 1

      That is a very good point, but hardly nothing new. Remember the Ford Pinto? There are always design and maintenance trade-offs, and they often involve safety versus cost. Can we save money by not putting in the little piece of plastic that protects the gas tank? Yes, but it may cost lives (if we're wrong). Can we save money by putting off bridge maintenance? Yes, but it may cost lives (if we're wrong). Can we take off in this weather? Yes, but it may cost lives (if we're wrong). Sure, I've had a few drinks, but it'll save money to drive myself home rather than take a cab...Blah blah. We individually and communaly are every minute trading off cost versus something, often safety. Sometimes we are unlucky and the odds catch up with us. Sometimes we are stupid, and they catch up with us faster. Sometimes we are negligent to the point of criminality, and then we should go to jail for our mistakes (or if you are in China, you get EXECUTED). To be always absolutely safe is cost-prohibitive. Why don't you have a 100 foot thick steel ceiling to protect you from debris falling from the sky. Answer: the probability is so low, spending that kind of money for safety is just crazy. Thus, building a simple roof that protects from at least medium size hail is sufficient. It is all just a matter of degree. The result of the bridge disaster study MIGHT be this: Everything was done just right. That is, we build bridges with certain design and maintenance standards and that is almost always good enough, but sometimes they fall. To improve the standards to where they will never fall will be cost-prohibitive.

      --
      Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
  48. all ready done. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At univ. i wrote a program to simulate sound propagating through any material, bridges and other constructions in mind.

    I used fancy algorithms to make the simulation time independent, so it's not really a simulation, more like a gigantic formula for pressure at a vertice with time as variable.

    For a programmer this was really interesting, but for real life, i've find it's nearly useless. the sound waves are all ready there....damn!

  49. Putting your head on a train track by PhotoBoy · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a recipe for generating candidates for the Darwin Award...

  50. Remote Structural Health Monitoring Available by hmeister · · Score: 1

    www.osmos-group.com This French company already has fiber optic remote real-time monitoring on 550 structures around the world. There is no reason to wait for something else to be invented. It's been installed in the Eiffel Tower, the Leuvre, the Manhattan Bridge, 3rd Ave Bridge, a NYC subway tunnel, damns, tall buildings (that are a bit tilted), etc

  51. Your Tin Hat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Will arrive by mail on Monday. Please do not remove it as Cheney's evil MC waves will penetrate your brain and cause you to post more imbecilic posts like the one you just did.

  52. Re: Politics of public works funding by tcgroat · · Score: 1

    It's simple, really. Politicians spend your money to build new roads, bridges, etc. so that they can put their names on them. Free re-election ads permanently posted on every route into the city, that's what we're talking about! How much publicity is there in replacing the rusted out girders and adding earthquake retrofits?

  53. Your post is false. by for(;;); · · Score: 1

    > He says look at the WTC, it collapsed because
    > of the lack of redundancy.
    >
    > What?
    >
    > Seriously, the building was hit by 150,000 lb
    > aircraft carrying 20,000 gallons of flammable
    > liquid. It was obviously never designed to
    > withstand that kind of structural complication.

    Totally incorrect. The WTC was designed to withstand being hit by an airliner. I recall this from the various documentaries post-9/11; a web reference describing this is:

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.ht ml

    which contains the quote (with citation):

    Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires.

    In the future, please use Google searches to verify claims you make in public posts. It's to no one's benefit to have discussions based on speculation and bullshit.

    --

    "Whatever happened to fair use?"
    -- Duff-Man
  54. Build Bridges not Bombs! by gone.fishing · · Score: 1

    I live in Minneapolis, quite close to the I-35W bridge that collapsed. I was there Wednesday evening before many of the professionals were and helped with crowd control when the area I was in became an impromptu staging facility. I've driven over the bridge quite literally thousands of times. Like most people, I feel quite vested in my community and its infrastructure. I was completely unaware (as I am sure most people were) that the bridge had any problems at all. If I had to pick the least likely bridge to fall, it is quite likely I would have picked that one. It was quite frequently maintained and from all outward appearances looked to be in good shape.

    I have had some time to think about it now and have come to the conclusion that we have not been good stewards of the infrastructure that our parents and grandparents worked so hard to give us. Instead of using the tsxes that we all pay to maintain our interstate system, dikes, levees and other items of commerce we have been off playing policeman for the world. We are like the nosey neighbor who complains about everything everyone else is doing while they let their own house and yard waste away. Only we do it on a global scale.

    When I compare this disaster to the other recent disasters in the US, I think it compares not to 9/11 or the San Francisco earthquake but more to hurricane Katrina in New Orleans. I think this because what happened in New Orleans was not a "natural disaster" but rather a failure of infrastructure. If the levees and dikes had held like they were intended to, not much would have happened in New Orleans, the natural disaster would have been a memorable big storm that caused damage, not the disaster it was.

    In the past twenty or thirty years we have not kept pace with the growth of infrastructure that we saw in the fifties and sixties when almost the entire system of interstate highways were built. With the disasters that we have seen I believe that there is enough evidence to show that we have not been good stewards of the gifts that our predicessors left us. We have failed. It really is that simple.

    It is time to learn our lesson and time to reinvest in America. We may need to stop dropping bombs and bring our serviemen and servicewomen home so that we can afford to do this. We may need to cut back on pork-barrel politics and instead concentrate on commerce. We may need to scale back on missions to mars and the moon. Hell, we may even need to raise taxes!

    Most importantly, and I do not know how to do this, we need to elect people who will do the job we need them to do in Washington and the state capitols.

    Finally, although this is off-topic, I want to say that the emergency crews that responded to this disaster did an amazing job. These people are civil-service workers and voulinteers. They deserve special recognition for their heroic efforts. In less than an hour responders from across the state were there and had already put together a structured and effective rescue plan.

    1. Re:Build Bridges not Bombs! by hidave · · Score: 1

      The failures in N.O. were due to the fact that Federal monies supposed to be spend on the levies had been instead diverted to pet projects of the various agencies in N.O. And of course rescue efforts that might have been put in place were exaserbated by the mayor and governor who refused to ask for Federal assistance prior to the event, even though President Bush almost begged them to ask for help. Note: It is a violation of Federal law to intervene in local affairs without the local's request; otherwise, we are a police state. The overall infrastructure problems we have in the United States have been with us long before we went into Iraq. And if we need money for this, we might get rid of the illegal immigrants who are here using up our infrastructure and costing us $billions to support those people, but contributing next to nothing to support us. You are right that we are not being good stewards of our stuff, but don't blame George Bush. Anyway you're too late: Rosie blames every disaster on George Bush, and she is way ahead of you.

      --
      Synchronizing stop lights across the US = one less nuclear power plant
    2. Re:Build Bridges not Bombs! by gone.fishing · · Score: 1

      If I made it sound like I blame Bush, I am sorry. This is one thing that he had very little to do with. Our infrastructure has been in sorry shape for many administrations now, I can't even say exactly where I think it started. There is enough blame to go around; everyone is responsible.

      Perhaps if we weren't mixing it up in every conflict we could afford better stewardship of what is truly and rightfully ours. We have spent billions in Iraq and there is little doubt that some, perhaps much of that money could have been used back here at home.

  55. Of course a Cat. 6 hurricane would be unplanned.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..given that such a thing does not exist. ;)

  56. Deacon's masterpiece - one horse shay by cdn-programmer · · Score: 1

    After reading the references to economics with regard to the bridge construction I'm reminded of the poem: The Deacon's Masterpiece.

    You see - the Deacon built the shay perfectly. Each piece was perfectly designed and beautifully crafted. This is why it lasted 100 years.

    The Deacon eliminated all un-needed redundancy. His shay never needed to be fixed. It worked perfect until its last moment. Then all parts failed simultaneously.

    If we could perfect engineering then we could build modern structures and machines this way. Why have components fail after the machine or structure no longer serves any useful purpose? Its a waste right?

    Maybe the shay the Deacon built wasn't nearly as perfect as his engineering skills and his ability to optimize. Perhaps our accountants, efficiency experts, and engineers are merely striving to reach the standards set by the Deacon.

    Maybe we've been misinterpreting the poem all along.

  57. Agreed. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pieces of paper impress me a lot.

  58. The repairs seemed more than minor by o'davy · · Score: 1

    I realize we have to wait for the NTSB's findings, but as someone who drove over this bridge every workday, twice a day for years, I have to say the repairs seemed more than a minor resurfacing. They were jackhammering down below the re-bar to pour the new concrete. They had just finished two lanes in either direction (the traffic was traveling over the new pavement), and they were getting ready to pour more concrete.

    I suspect the repairs accelerated the structural damage, but I agree that it was probably just a matter of time before it collapsed.

    <sigh> Sad, sad thing to have happened. And, of course, we Minneapolitans are reminded about it every day by big, amber signs: Road closed at I94; Road closed at TH280. It's going to be like this for a long time. </sigh>

    --
    Sig goes here.