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Dell Considers Bundling Virtualization on Mobos

castrox writes "Ars Technica is reporting that Dell may be considering bundling virtualization on some of their motherboards. No more dual boot or VMs inside the running OS? 'Any way you slice it, though, putting the hypervisor in a chunk of flash and letting it handle loading the OS is the way forward, especially for servers and probably even for enterprise desktops. Boot times, power consumption, security, and flexibility are all reasons to do this ... The big question is: which hypervisor will Dell bundle with its machines? Vance suggests hypervisors from XenSource and VMware as two options, but I think that VMware is the most likely candidate since it seems to be the x86 virtualization solution of choice for the moment. However, if Dell doesn't try too hard to lock it down, this system could easily be modified in an aftermarket fashion to include almost any hypervisor that could fit on the flash chip.'"

138 comments

  1. Overwhelming Support by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Dell's gonna have a hell of a time supporting these complex features while it's closing down its call centers.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Overwhelming Support by Kadin2048 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Was anyone with a clue actually calling Dell's call centers anyway?

      The only reason I've ever called a manufacturer's tech support line in years has been to get an RMA. And it's generally just irritating when they insist on taking me through their little script before they'll admit defeat and return the piece of junk.

      The purpose of those call centers is probably mostly for "cupholder calls," and less so for support on their higher end products, which is where the virtualization hardware would be (at least initially). I assume corporations have direct access to Dell to process RMAs and warranty work, request on-site service, etc., without going through a callcenter drone.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Overwhelming Support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Support Center: 'Allo, my name is Gupta...er, Sanjay...er, Bill...'ow may I 'elp you zet up your bertualization?

      No thanks!

    3. Re:Overwhelming Support by Jack9 · · Score: 1

      Customers will just be calling Walmart shortly. Closing call centers and storefronts is just good business given the new opportunity to sell out of Walmart.

      --

      Often wrong but never in doubt.
      I am Jack9.
      Everyone knows me.
    4. Re:Overwhelming Support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh. Nicely done.

    5. Re:Overwhelming Support by Forge · · Score: 5, Informative

      Close.

      A few tips on calling Dell tech support if you are a competent engineer who diagnosed the problem before reporting it.

      1. For a home PC the techs are so incompetent that it's easier to just lie about the nature of the problem. I.e. If your hard drive is on the fritz, making rattly sounds and loosing data just say "The drive is completely dead. When I connect it the BIOS doesn't even admit that it's there".

      2. Gold support is better than economy or even silver, but not for the reasons on dell.com. It's better because they connect you to the most competent support guys almost immediately when you call the gold support line. Competent engineers know when they are speaking to an equal and will dispatch the required parts immediately. They also send out "just-in-case parts".

      3. Call late at night if your warranty allows it. The brightest tech support guys in Texas know that the graveyard shift is the best time to work. Less traffic on the commute, more pay and more time available for none work related tasks. Your shortest and most fruitful calls will be at 2:00 AM.

      4. Don't be afraid to hang up. I once had an external tape drive (PV 110T) that was bursting tapes whenever I initiated a backup. The tech support guy insisted that I must reboot the server so I could see if the drive shows up in the BIOS before he could go any further. I hung up, called back latter and got a brighter support guy who dispatched a replacement drive in around 5 minutes.

      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    6. Re:Overwhelming Support by JazzLad · · Score: 1

      I assume corporations have direct access to Dell to process RMAs and warranty work, request on-site service, etc., without going through a callcenter drone.


      Boy, I wish! At least their academic accounts don't seem to. Last time I had to RMA one for the university I worked for I had to sit on hold for a spell & then promise a nice bananna to get my RMA.

      Oh, well.
      --
      "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear." - Every fascist, ever
    7. Re:Overwhelming Support by QuantumRiff · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Roseburg, OR call center closure really pissed off the town.. They gave Dell an tax exemption, saving them $5mil over 5 years.. They also spent $1mil on other "incentives" and infrastructure upgrades to attract them to the area. As soon as that Tax exemption was over, they closed down the doors.. Just before, they made some of the best techs there go over seas and train their replacements.. The employees were told they were opening up an "additional" call center, not moving theirs.. Apparently, they also were a crappy tenant and trashed the building they were in...

      I don't think Dell is going to be selling many more PC's in southern Oregon for a while...

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    8. Re:Overwhelming Support by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      Was anyone with a clue actually calling Dell's call centers anyway?
      I don't care if anyone with a clue is calling. I really only care whether anyone with a clue is answering!
      --
      (IANAL)
    9. Re:Overwhelming Support by Lockejaw · · Score: 1

      In response to closures like that, I've heard of cities adding a stipulation that says the company has to pay fees, back taxes, etc. if they close up and move out.

      --
      (IANAL)
    10. Re:Overwhelming Support by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

      #2 is the most important, I find. Dell's non-Gold support is worthless. On the other hand, their Gold support is pretty darn good. Needless to say, every system we buy (which are mostly laptops) are bought with the Gold support and Complete-Care. The former gets me to techs who speak some form of English (a southern accent is the worst I get) and the later covers the occasional, "I spilled soda on my keyboard" errors. Which, considering the nature of the users I support, happen with alarming frequency.
      One tip I would have for anyone calling Dell. Before calling, run the diagnostics they have bundled with the system (usually <F12> at POST), or go grab them from the Dell site and run them from a floppy/CD. When the tech comes on, explain your problem, and tell them the error code from the diagnostic program. 9 times out of 10, that has saved me the joys of running through the script, which incidentally enough, usually includes running that diagnostic tool. It's the difference between a 5 minute, "I'm having weird Windows errors, and your diagnostic program claims that DIMM B is bad. <insert usual memory swapping tests here>" And a much longer time for them dinking around in Windows trying to troubleshoot a hosed DIMM. Also, when you are having oddball errors with no obvious reason (malware, bad drivers, etc), that little tool is actually a good way to check if it's a hardware problem.

      --
      Necessity is the mother of invention.
      Laziness is the father.
    11. Re:Overwhelming Support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
      Well it looks like it's only one call center that was closed:

      He said the company announced plans in May to reduce employment worldwide by 10 percent. He said the Roseburg location is the only such center in the United States to close. And also from the next paragraph it seems that the reason was obvious:

      Frink said the closure has nothing to do with a lawsuit filed by employees of the Roseburg center in February, claiming Dell violated federal and state wage and hour laws.
    12. Re:Overwhelming Support by no1nose · · Score: 1

      That is all very good advice. I work for a state government and we tend to get very good support from Dell. I think that item #4 (Don't be afraid to hang up) is among the best advice. It works on other customer care centers, too.

      It is absurd (but true) that you can call a given company 5 times and get 5 different answers from the various phone-drones on the other end.

    13. Re:Overwhelming Support by polaris20 · · Score: 1

      That would definitely be a good idea, as Dell would certainly deserve to be charged back taxes if that's all true.

    14. Re:Overwhelming Support by leenks · · Score: 1

      Why is this absurd? If you call 5 times and get 5 different people of course you are going to get different answers.

      FWIW I'm in the UK, and my organisation has bought Dell servers with 3yr bronze support, and we've never had any problems. An engineer turns up the next working day to do the swaps, and that's the end of the problem (everything from a failed fan unit in a disk array through to complete motherboard, ram, and cpu, and PSU replacement.

      Maybe it depends what lines you buy from too?

    15. Re:Overwhelming Support by no1nose · · Score: 1

      I consider it to be absurd because I expect a high level of support every time I call - I don't like calling a company over and over until I get the answer I want.

      That being said, I agree that Dell provides great support to business and government.

    16. Re:Overwhelming Support by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All are very good points. I am one of the on-site techs, and I advise people of #1 and #4 quite frequently. Whenever you can cite an error code from a diagnostic program, the tech on the other end of the phone line knows what they need from you.

      I have dealt with many helpdesks over the last few years, and Dell's has offered us the most support that I have ever seen. They truly work with us. Since I have a DCSE number, they usually ask for my opinion. That partnership really helps.

      As for service plans, consider the 4-hour service when justified -- Those calls get the highest priority. I've seen several times when many more parts are sent "just in case."

    17. Re:Overwhelming Support by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Certainly true with desktop support from practically any tier 1 OEM.

      However, Dell's server support is a different kettle of fish entirely. Certainly in the UK, as soon as they know you're calling about a server with a support contract they connect you straight to a call centre in Ireland which is staffed by people with at least a modicum of intelligence and the ability to speak English clearly. Probably because there's more money in servers, and more to be lost by pissing off the bloke who's almost certainly spent the last 2 hours diagnosing the fault and knows full well it's hardware, thank you very much.

    18. Re:Overwhelming Support by jimicus · · Score: 1

      I consider it to be absurd because I expect a high level of support every time I call - I don't like calling a company over and over until I get the answer I want.

      I'd like that as well. But I live in the real world - you can't realistically expect them to dedicate the same level of care to a PC which they sold for £250, netting a total profit of £25, as a server which they sold for £2500 with a profit margin of £1000. They've got to pay these people somehow.

    19. Re:Overwhelming Support by no1nose · · Score: 1

      I'm just saying that company policy should be company policy. Either you force your employees to stick to the script, or not. If someone calls customer service, they should either have to "reseat the memory modules, reboot, etc", or not. It shouldn't depend on which agent you get on the line.

    20. Re:Overwhelming Support by louisadkins · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are right - company policy is company policy. But. Keep in mind that not every agent is going to follow company policy every time. Years ago I worked Dell tech support and I would regularly have to deal with getting customers that had previously dealt with someone who didn't follow policy. I'd spend an extra five to fifteen minutes telling them that, yes, I really did have to do it the way I was doing it. I really didn't feel like taking the approximately 4% chance that someone was listening to my calls and loose my job.

    21. Re:Overwhelming Support by Flossymike · · Score: 1
      As someone who is involved in technical support in the UK on home machines I would respond to your points in the following ways:-

      1. For a home PC the techs are so incompetent that it's easier to just lie about the nature of the problem. I.e. If your hard drive is on the fritz, making rattly sounds and loosing data just say "The drive is completely dead. When I connect it the BIOS doesn't even admit that it's there".
      Don't lie. If the first level are making requests or their job bookings are going through a QA department, they may well catch inconsistence diagnostics which may result in jobs being delayed as the first level is required to make call backs.

      2. Gold support is better than economy or even silver, but not for the reasons on dell.com. It's better because they connect you to the most competent support guys almost immediately when you call the gold support line. Competent engineers know when they are speaking to an equal and will dispatch the required parts immediately. They also send out "just-in-case parts".
      Don't know, not relevant to may situation, but sounds likely.

      3. Call late at night if your warranty allows it. The brightest tech support guys in Texas know that the graveyard shift is the best time to work. Less traffic on the commute, more pay and more time available for none work related tasks. Your shortest and most fruitful calls will be at 2:00 AM.
      I think that there may well be a level of truth in this. You'll also find that late at night managers don't mess around with the night shifts any were near as much.

      4. Don't be afraid to hang up. I once had an external tape drive (PV 110T) that was bursting tapes whenever I initiated a backup. The tech support guy insisted that I must reboot the server so I could see if the drive shows up in the BIOS before he could go any further. I hung up, called back latter and got a brighter support guy who dispatched a replacement drive in around 5 minutes.
      To some extent I agree. There are poor tech support out there, and if you call more than once you might not get the same person. For the particular problem you had, I, when I was doing first level support, would normally ask the person why they thought they had a particular component failure, why they thought so. If it checked out, excellent, I could check out there reasoning but if it was fine send an engineer or part out. If not, go through normal diagnostics. Hope that first hand experience helps what to expect in normal retail support.
    22. Re:Overwhelming Support by Forge · · Score: 1
      1

      Don't lie. If the first level are making requests or their job bookings are going through a QA department, they may well catch inconsistence diagnostics which may result in jobs being delayed as the first level is required to make call backs. It truly offends me each time I have to do this but sometimes tech support just insists on dragging out the diagnostics way beyond anything reasonable. I'm really glad my new job has no desktop support at all. The Hail Marys and self flagulation was getting to me.

      4

      To some extent I agree. There are poor tech support out there, and if you call more than once you might not get the same person. For the particular problem you had, I, when I was doing first level support, would normally ask the person why they thought they had a particular component failure, why they thought so. If it checked out, excellent, I could check out there reasoning but if it was fine send an engineer or part out. If not, go through normal diagnostics. Hope that first hand experience helps what to expect in normal retail support. Some problems have very limited number of possible causes. I.e. There is no command you can send to a properly functioning PV110T (SDLT 320 version if you want to check) that will cause it to rip a perfectly good tape. Erase your data perhaps or even write an invalid header that causes strange errors but not ripping the tape. For that your tapes must be bad or the mechanical components in the drive are in need of repair.

      The 2nd tech wanted to verify the condition of the tapes I was using. Once I convinced him that these were both new and used tapes that were properly stored he went to the only other likely culprit. The PV110T is a full unit FRU (Meaning you are not supposed to open it, although I had to on another occasion to remove a stuck tape with confidential data)
      --
      --= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
    23. Re:Overwhelming Support by _KiTA_ · · Score: 1

      The Dell Oregon call center was a consumer sales call center. With the new Walmart deal and some consolidation of other callcenters, it was unfortunately made redundant.

      Kinda sucks.

    24. Re:Overwhelming Support by billcopc · · Score: 1

      I'm a former Dell employee, one that is both dangerously competent and speaks mostly good English (Canadian). On my team of about 16 techs, we had great techs and we had horrible techs. The great techs weren't always the fastest, and the horrible techs weren't always the slowest.

      As the absolute fastest guy on the floor (by a good margin, too!), I kept getting asked what my "secret" was. The secret is confidence. Let's face it: computers aren't that complicated. I think my car is a lot harder to troubleshoot than any PC, because the car has a thousand little parts whereas a PC has a motherboard, processor, power supply, ram and a hard drive, maybe an expansion card or two. The difference between my 5 minute calls and my neighbor's 90-minute calls is that I wasn't worried about "over-fixing". Allow me to explain:

      Assuming you've ruled out software issues, you're down to just hardware flakiness. If it takes 2 hours of diagnostics and fiddling around to get to 99% confidence, but only 5 or 10 minutes to reach 90% confidence, I say stop after that 5-10 mins and ship out whatever you think is necessary to fix it. Worst case, you'll replace a part that wasn't really defective, and the guys at the testing facility will put them in the refurb bin, not the end of the world considering that you've solved the problem in 1/20th of the time for both you and your customer.

      Now software issues are a whole different ballgame, and I'm grateful I was in the corporate segment, mostly dealing with I.T. people and not the end user. Even then, my answer was simple: if it's acting wonky, just format the OS and you can call me back if it's still messed up.

      The other thing that's terribly obvious, yet most agents never thought of, is to prioritize your troubleshooting. Go for the quick, broad strokes at first. A quick diagnostic of the hard drive and/or memory takes 2-3 minutes, so do those right away. There's hardly ever a need to run the full test suite unless the user is deaf, dumb and blind. Typically within the first 30 seconds of them relating their problems, the tech should already have a pretty good idea where to start looking.

      In the end, the problem is that it's still a call center, and call centers are staffed with whoever is desperate enough to take the job, you can't cherry-pick your techs when you're staffing a 2000-phone building. Training isn't all bad, but much like driving lessons, they show you how to operate the equipment, but that doesn't make you an expert. For the overseas call centers, well, you get what you pay for.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    25. Re:Overwhelming Support by bsp123 · · Score: 1

      This is scary stuff! A motherboard-resident hypervisor will have 100% access to everything you do on your PC. It's the perfect place for Dell to insert DRM, email-scanners, keystroke loggers, etc. Every data packet that goes into or out of your O/S has to travel through the hypervisor layer. Until now, spyware had to go into your O/S. Easy on Windows, not so easy on Linux & Apple. But spyware can be easily embedded in a hypervisor, where all I/O is passing through. It can easily be extended by Dell. Perhaps at the request of an OEM (NSA for instance ;-). I work for a company that would dearly love to have an undetectable covert channel to monitor every keystroke, file-transfer, network packet, mouse-click, web-access, etc. Every registered sex-offender will be given a free Dell desktop for his getting-out-of-jail gift. :-*

  2. Top two possible misspellings: by Roadmaster · · Score: 3, Funny

    Dell considers bundling virtualization on mofos

    or

    Dell considers bundling virtualization on hobos

    not pretty either way.

    1. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't know the meaning of "mobo"? Why are you here?

    2. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's stupid slang. May as well call them fabos for fatherboards.

    3. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Dell considers bungling virtualization on mobos

    4. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by castrox · · Score: 1

      Story submission limits the number of characters for the headline. Doh.

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    5. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by Nullav · · Score: 1

      DARPATech Shows off Robot Doc and Cancer Breathalyzer
      Looks like it would have fit. But really, what's the problem? We all know what it means by now.

      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
    6. Re:Top two possible misspellings: by nowhere.elysium · · Score: 1

      Does that mean that we get to call Dell's old daughterboards Dobos? Sounds an awful lot like Doobies. Yay for IT-based spliffage!

      --
      http://xkcd.com/313/
  3. First VM. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "However, if Dell doesn't try too hard to lock it down, this system could easily be modified in an aftermarket fashion to include almost any hypervisor that could fit on the flash chip.'"

    Why wait for Dell to do this?

    1. Re:First VM. by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why wait for Dell to do this?


      For that matter, who needs to?

      You can get the benefits of this yourself.

      1) Download Damn Small Linux.
      2) Install on a USB pen drive.
      3) Add Xen Source (or VMWare) hypervisor
      4) ???
      5) Profit! (sorry, couldn't resist)

    2. Re:First VM. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is for enterprises as part of their poweredge server line. Not for desktops... slight difference.

      There's absolutely no point in embedding virtualization with desktop servers for home users. There are huge advantages to embedding it with servers in an offering for the companies out there who are looking to leverage virtualization technology.

      Incidentally, not to sound too insider-iffic, but I'd imagine anyone who has been involved with Dell and/or VMware at an enterprise level has been aware of this for awhile (at least I have!).

    3. Re:First VM. by Nullav · · Score: 1

      There's absolutely no point in embedding virtualization with desktop servers for home users.
      I take it you've never written any code for more than one OS, then? Also, keep in mind that OS X 10.4.5 (x86 builds) on are heavily dependent on an EFI chip. What if I wanted to use OS X without paying the white plastic fee? (Let's not get into a Mac price argument here.) There might not always be a situation where I can find someone with a Mac to test something for me.
      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
    4. Re:First VM. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Let's not get into a Mac price argument here.

      Then don't bring it up, dumbass.

  4. rent the feature on a monthly basis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you know, once you try to enable the hypervisor, connect to an online payment system and charge $X per month to enable the feature, lock the 2nd O/S once the subscription expires. Encase the chips in epoxy. I'm surpised Microsoft hasn't tried something like this yet. Extra points if Dell designs it too run too hot and blowup.

  5. Yes, but: So what? by adolf · · Score: 1

    In what way is this functionally different than the same hypervisor being installed on a bootable USB flash drive/IDE-attached CompactFlash card/[insert other stupid-simple method of booting from flash]?

  6. Probably a dumb question... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    How is adding more layers going to make anything faster?
    It isn't like Vista will be loading less drivers because of the extra layer.

    1. Re:Probably a dumb question... by WyrdOne · · Score: 1

      This is not targeted at the Consumer market. This *is* marketed at the software and developer markets. Typically those already running VMWare's ESX products or similar tech.

      Basically it means faster startup time and possibly faster performance for VM servers.

    2. Re:Probably a dumb question... by Mattsson · · Score: 1

      Not all improvements are there to produce more speed.
      Sometimes, an improvement will give better functionality at the cost of a little speed.
      And with the speed we have in our pc's today, it does seem more rational to concentrate on improving funtionality and reliability rather than speed.

      --
      /.Mattsson - My native language is not English, so please don't whine over linguistic errors. (That's lame anyway...)
    3. Re:Probably a dumb question... by ChrisA90278 · · Score: 2

      "How is adding more layers going to make anything faster?"

      "Faster" is not the goal. Better machine utilization is. In the Windows PC world sysadmins know that loading multiple functions all running on the same machine is inviting trouble and can crash Windows so they spread their servers out. This allows the admin to consolidate the servers back into one machine by running multiple copies of the Windows OS on one server. He gets the stability gain of running one task on a box biox he stops wasting so many boxes.

      The other use for VMs is so you can run multiple OSes at the same time on the same machine. But this is something developers, testers and suport people like to do and may as well be done using VMWare on a host OS.

    4. Re:Probably a dumb question... by jimicus · · Score: 1

      Even with a Unix-based OS, there's something to be said for separating processes between virtual systems.

      It improves security - an exploit leaves one virtual server (and hence one service) vulnerable, not everything.

      It improves reliability - a service which is known to have knock-on effects if it screws up can have those knock-on effects limited to just one virtual server.

      It also makes scaling individual services and migrating between hardware far easier - if you haven't yet had to go down the SAN route, upgrading a file server is as simple as adding extra disk to the virtual machine, and if the physical host it's on doesn't have the space, migrating the VM first without impacting other services.

      The biggest drawback is that you then have to administer a number of virtual hosts rather than just one or two physical ones. But that's what God invented cfengine for.

    5. Re:Probably a dumb question... by hedwards · · Score: 1

      That all depends upon specifically how things are implemented. Hardware RAID isn't necessarily faster than software RAID is, hardware virtualizers haven't so far always been faster than software ones either.

      If they get it right, then it should be at least competitive. Plus with some luck it should have some type of enhanced security over what software can do.

  7. Re:Yes, but: So what? by BuR4N · · Score: 1

    "In what way is this functionally different than the same hypervisor being installed on a bootable USB flash drive/IDE-attached CompactFlash card"

    Its more secure having the actually memory embedded inside the machine instead on the outside in a port, accessible for anyone that have physicall access to your office.

    --
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  8. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Chirs · · Score: 1

    It's vendor-supported.

  9. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Albanach · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In what way is this functionally different than the same hypervisor being installed on a bootable USB flash drive/IDE-attached CompactFlash card/[insert other stupid-simple method of booting from flash]?
    The difference is that it's a supported set up from a major manufacturer. That means that when you pay for 24x7x365 support you are not faced with being told that you've modified the hardware and they can't support your setup. Indeed if your flash card dies a sudden death, the Dell engineer

    can be there within four hours and should actually be carrying a spare.

    For a hobbyist at home I doubt there's much of a difference at all, but for folk paying big $$$ for enterprise solutions, this is probably very welcome.
  10. Hobos by everphilski · · Score: 0, Flamebait
  11. IBM does this on their iSeries by dagar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    IBM is already doing this on their iSeries (AS/400). In order to manage it you have to have a Hardware Management Console (an x86 xSeries machine running Linux and their management software). I really think that they have done a good job of the virtualization, it also lets IBM throttle back the CPU. We have a 1000CPW (IBM's performance index) machine that with the Power5 1.5Ghz processor is limited to 43% utilization. In order to get all 100% of the CPU (2400CPW), we would have to pay through the nose.

    1. Re:IBM does this on their iSeries by kpharmer · · Score: 1

      I'm not going to use the right terminology here (since it changes quarterly) but...

      this is just one pricing option: you can buy everything up front, or you can pay more to have them put in 'emergency' resources - that can be added later if you need it.

      This later scenario can be good if you want to avoid overbuying but still have resources available in case you wildly underestimated what you'd need.

  12. Re:Yes, but: So what? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

    Well, as I said in this post, not much. The only things I can think of are that it doesn't rely on any external devices and would be directly supported by Dell. It would be a real boon to corporate IT departments using virtualization to consolidate servers, since IT managers are often loathsome to use any such configuration that isn't officially vendor-supported.

  13. Re:Yes, but: So what? by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

    I'm guessing that you might get a slight advantage not having to wait for the bios to reach a point where it has usb functioning - and possibly the ability to read the chip faster off the board than over usb. Just wags on my part. I personally don't get the big deal over doing it this way as compared to the way a hypervisor loads now to run on bare metal. It might take a touch longer to boot - but so what? I'm not bouncing my servers that often anyway. And on the desktop? That's where I really struggle to see the need.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
  14. A New Obligatory?!? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty soon the old obligatory comment "Yeah, but does it run Linux?" will be updated to read "Yeah, but does it run Linux (in at least one VM)?"

  15. For someone not keeping an eye on this by Bluesman · · Score: 1

    There seem to be a lot more options for "virtualization" lately than VMWare, but never having needed to use multiple OS's at one time, I'm clueless as to the details of how these all work. Are they taking advantage of some new functionality on Intel/AMD chips?

    Is there some sort of overview for this stuff?

    --
    If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    1. Re:For someone not keeping an eye on this by Znork · · Score: 1

      Take a look at the virtualization article at wikipedia. It covers most of the tech in a fairly good overview.

    2. Re:For someone not keeping an eye on this by empaler · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is there some sort of overview for this stuff? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_virtual _machines
      HTH :-)
    3. Re:For someone not keeping an eye on this by Bluesman · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, thanks. That and Intel's software developer docs helped out a lot.

      Most of the web sites just show the little block diagram with a layer of virtualization between "hardware" and "The OS".

      --
      If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
    4. Re:For someone not keeping an eye on this by empaler · · Score: 1

      NP :)
      It's a bit of a jungle, really. As far as I can tell, Xen has the edge on HW-based virtualization. (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off)

  16. TPM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Amusingly, this + a mechanism for telling the hypervisor what programs to trust and how, was the original end goal of the whole TPM/palladium movement..

  17. Love the drama by Hellraisr · · Score: 1

    I personally love how the poster of the article invents a hypothetical security problem with a hypothetical and non existent hardware solution, at which point he/she discusses the details of a potential hypothetical hack.

  18. Simple compute nodes by tji · · Score: 2

    As others mentioned, similar things can be done now -- an IDE/Flash boot into a minimal hypervisor Linux for Xen or KVM. That would also allow some flexibility, to maybe run a few things directly on the hardware. I would be very interested in an approach like this for my home Linux server.

    For larger enterprise uses, the really simple hypervisor is nice. Just slap another box in there, and it is quickly added to your compute cluster. If they do it right, that system could even net-boot and auto-install the latest hypervisor image when it's first added. Factor in VMWare's "VMotion" stuff, where VMs can be moved among compute nodes in a cluster, and that simple compute node, along with a big NAS, is really slick.

  19. I don't want a hypervisor thanks by Viol8 · · Score: 1

    Virtualisation I have no doubt is extremely useful in certain applications. I howerver have no use for it on any PC I own or work on. I exclusively use linux and I don't want Windows or OS/X or anything else running alongside it. I *WANT* my OS to have full control over the machine - its faster , its more flexible and theres less to go wrong (not to mention who's to say a hypervisor couldn't be hacked by a virus somehow?). I don't want some virtual hardware locked into the BIOS that may or may not have features enabled depending on what mood the hardware supplier was in one day.

    Sure , if you want virtualisation have it as an add-on, but to have it added by default into the BIOS IMO is a slippery slope.

    1. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Virtualization is not just for multiple OS's.

      One use you might be interested in is a security barrier. The base system boots, but very little really runs on it. Instead you start guest images, and the stuff runs under the guests. Compromise a guest and you haven't compromised the machine. In fact, one thing you might run on the host is an Intrusion Detection System that monitors the guests and shuts down any that might go rogue. Better yet, you could "freeze" the rogue by ceasing to schedule CPU cycles to it, and save the image for forensic analysis. A few reasons might be to run outside-facing services in guests, or run user accounts, or maybe just browsers in guests. I've been interested in this usage, but don't have powerful enough hardware, yet.

      Another use is simply safety. There has been talk (and proof-of-concept) of "hypervisor worms" that tunnel under an existing OS and virtualize it. If you're not running some sort of hypervisor, you're vulnerable. If you are running some sort of hypervisor, its security should stop the worm from tunneling.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by EvilMagnus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Virtualization can be really useful to make sure you're making use of all available resources.

      Consider a development environment. You might have ten developers, each with their own server. For most of the time, most of the capabilities of those development boxes are being unused, but they're still taking up space and power in your datacenter.

      If you could virtualize those 10 dev boxes down to two or three bigger boxes, you could:
      - save on space and power in your data center
      - ensure you're using your available resources more efficiently (the cpus and RAM aren't idle most of the time; they're actually being used)
      - makes it easier to 'add another box' to the mix if you get a new hire. Setting up a new dedicated (virtual) development server takes a matter of minutes, and can all be done in software for no additional cost. This is especially true if you keep all your server images and data on a shared network storage device (or hook the host OS box up to a SAN).

      There's the increased risk of downtime from hardware failures, but buy the right boxes for the host OS and that's not a problem.

      Dell's solution, if it works, would be really neat. It would probably simplify the act of virtualization even more, and means *none* of the host CPU or RAM is taken up running the VM server. It's all available for guest OS use.

      --
      -EvilMagnus
    3. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by Uruz+7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aren't you being a bit selfish? If you don't want Windows or Mac then don't install them. It's likely that your BIOS has support for tons of things which you are not using nor forced to use. And since you're a Linux user, I'm sure you're aware of all the crap that you'll probably never have to enable in the kernel but it's there if you want it.

      I'm not really sure what you mean by slippery slope either. Slippery slope to what? More features? I also don't think this is for the desktop market. I couldn't tell from the article but I assume this is meant for server class machines where virtualization is awesome for fairly cheap HA setups and having this come straight from Dell this way makes it that much easier to pitch to a guy with an MBA.

    4. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      >I'm not really sure what you mean by slippery slope either. Slippery slope to what? More features? I

      Completely undetectable viruses and worms, remote disablement of PC hardware , frankly anything you want to do with the maqchine if the hypervisor is compromised somehow since you won't ever detect it in the OS. An OS is called an Operating System because it operates the system. If its little more than some sock puppet on a hypervisor then whats its purpose other than a glorified scheduler?

    5. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by jma05 · · Score: 1

      Suit yourself. I run Linux 95% of the time. But I find a VM very useful. Some of my hardware is Windows only or just a pain to set up on Linux. So I use Windows in a VM with USB support and it saves me the trouble of worrying about Linux compatibility for occational use devices. There are many niche tools that are Windows only. I don't know the technical implications of having the motherboard manage VT, but I am wondering if it makes providing better access to graphics cards from the VM. That could mean a solution to the last remaining challenge of VT - gaming.

    6. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by khb · · Score: 1

      Clearly you don't debug Operating Systems for a living ;> Recall that the first VMs were on the IBM mainframes so that the OS developers wouldn't crash the machine on each other.

      Similarly for debugging or otherwise doing risky things with one's OS/configuration. Having a VM makes it a lot faster and easier to recover or to examine a troublesome system.

      And even if you only want to run Linux, there are many different distros and kernels to chose from. If you are developing software to be portable, being able to easily/quickly test your code on multiple configurations can go a lost faster with a virtualized set of environments.

    7. Re:I don't want a hypervisor thanks by Viol8 · · Score: 1

      "Clearly you don't debug Operating Systems for a living"

      Which bit of "Virtualisation I have no doubt is extremely useful in certain applications." didn't you understand? If you're developing OSes for a living I doubt you use bog standard off the shelf kit.

      "If you are developing software to be portable"

      Developing portable software is simple - its called static linking. Something a lot of idiots calling themselves developers should remember.

  20. Re:Bill O'Reilly Is A Member Of The Nazi Party by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Erm... What?

  21. Already happening in game console market by wdnspoon · · Score: 2, Informative

    I think PS3s already get shipping with a built-in hypervisor to manage installing guest OSs in VMs on the console. Ostensibly it's a feature, but doing so has given them enough control to prevent access to accelerated graphics so people don't use the console to play games they downloaded and are instead forced to buy. There's certainly precedent for this, and we're sure to see a lot more of this in the future. Hopefully the PC market is competitive enough that Dell won't be restricting their own hypervisor to restrict certain hardware access, or only allow the use of VMs from "trusted" sources. If this is true, then this is excellent news.

  22. reminds me of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    DRM (Score:3, Insightful)
    by Frank T. Lofaro Jr. (142215) on Tuesday June 07, @05:12PM (#12751680)
    (http://www.linux.com/)

    They are doing this for DRM.

    Their Hypervisor will enforce DRM, so even linux can't override it.

    They'll make it so all device drivers must be signed to go into the
    Hypervisor which will be the only thing with any I/O privs that aren't
    virtualized.

    They'll make it so new hardware has closed interfaces and can only be
    supported by a driver at the Hypervisor level.

    Any drivers in any OS level won't be able to circumvent the DRM, since
    they'll just THINK they are talking to hardware, but will get virtual
    hardware instead - and the Hypervisor won't let it read any protected
    content through the virtual I/O, it will blank it out (e.g. all zero
    bytes from the "soundcard") or something similar.

    The drivers designed for the Hypervisor won't work in any higher level,
    since they'll need to do a crypographic handshake with the hardware to
    verify it is "real" and the hardware will also monitor bus activity so
    it'll know if any extraneous activity is occur (as it would if it was
    being virtualized).

    Everything will have a standard interface to the O/S, so Linux will still
    run but be very limited and slowed down - since only Windows will be
    allowed "preferred" access to hardware, other O/S will be deliberately
    crippled.

    They'll say you can still run Linux.

    Hardware manufacturers won't release specs, they'll say use the Hypervisor
    and you can still use Linux.

    You'll still need to buy Windows to use any hardware - Linux won't even
    boot on the raw hardware.

    MS doesn't care if Linux isn't killed - the above allows them lock in - no
    windows - your PC won't boot - since nothing but the Hypervisor will know
    how to talk to the IDE card, etc.

    What about manufacturers that want to support open interfaces, etc?
    Microsoft will deny them a key which they will need to talk to the
    Hypervisor - and the Hypervisor will refuse to talk to them.

    Support anything other than solely the Hypervisor and you can't use the
    Hypervisor. No Windows - lose too many sales.

    And they can say other O/S's are still allowed.

    They'll just not be able to give you freedom to use your hardware as you
    see fit (DRM, need to pay more to get software to unlock other features
    on your hardware), only Windows will run well, and you need a Windows
    license and Hypervisor for every PC or else it is unbootable.

    1. Re:reminds me of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, that sucks. Kind of makes me want a Mac. Oh I did get a Mac. Not to say Apple is holy or above screwing its users and doing something like that too... But it probably won't get that bad, and there's going to be work-arounds and alternatives, or collecting older PCs as a hobby will get more popular, or we'll start using Sun's hardware or something. But then again, if a lot of big company DRM'd stuff, and if they can shut down piracy of it. Good for them. Then you can ask if Generic-Plot-Rehash #6 with Original-Twist #4 is worth paying $5 to see or not, and then people will refuse to pay for garbage, and instead opt to go read books and get smarter and free/open source will be popular and all the evil monopolies and governments will fall as the newly enlightened masses rise up and right the wrongs with their newly discovered awareness and wisdom.

    2. Re:reminds me of ... by Pitawg · · Score: 1

      Agreed. Completely.

      Being closer to a theorist though, I am looking at the Hypervisor taking part in the new unconstitutional legal system, where the hardware will also provide a virtual snoop. GWBOS will boot from the network, no local files needed, and potential for mass observation.

      You thought Sony's root kit was something? Try the hardwired version in the hardware.

      You can call people crazy for this kind of conjecture, but now it is all "legal" for the moment. What executive orders or classified "requests" are being fed to hardware makers as you read this? I am not trolling for political screamers. There is now a law on the books this very moment that would allow this type of thing.

    3. Re:reminds me of ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How about a link to the discussion and maybe a link to the 2005 article: Microsoft Plans Hypervisor for Longhorn.

  23. Please, do not make this the only option by querist · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This frightens me on so many levels that it is difficult to know where to start. Unless that hypervisor is burned into a non-rewritable form of storage (e.g. ROM), it will be subverted.

    As it has been demonstrated at Black Hat by the illustrious Ms. Rutowska, (as well as being fairly obvious to anyone familiar with hypervisors) a hypervisor is below the OS and can be impervious to the OS's probing, but it still lies between the OS and the hardware.

    Properly implemented, this could be a very good thing. With no disrespect intended toward Dell, I suspect that the first several implementations (at least) will leave the resulting systems vulnerable to subversion, and this subversion would be difficult, at best, to detect.

    This is an interesting concept, and it could be used for "good", but as the saying goes "the devil is in the details". The idea is good, it is the potential implementation that worries me.

    Full Disclosure: I have a Ph.D. (2006) in InfoSec.

    1. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Full Disclosure: I have a Ph.D. (2006) in InfoSec.

      wow! you know as much as most guys who've been in the field since 2005 without the fancy degrees.

    2. Re: Please, do not make this the only option by Dolda2000 · · Score: 1

      [...]I suspect that the first several implementations (at least) will leave the resulting systems vulnerable to subversion, and this subversion would be difficult, at best, to detect.
      I know! Whatever will happen to my CVS servers?
    3. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So where are all the ESX exploits?

    4. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OH.... You have a Ph.D.

      Well then I'll have to show you how to run this......

    5. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by charlesnw · · Score: 1

      Um. Huh? What? Why will this be subverted? You mean at the factory? How is this any different then other virtulization solutions? The problem with being to focused on security and theory (which seeing that you just got your Phd means you have been for several years) is that you tend to forget real word details. Any system isn't 100% secure. We know that. So what is the point of bringing this up? Virtulization is a very useful technology in a whole lot of areas. Especially security. Makes it much easier to seperate out functions etc. Please don't spread any more FUD then is already in the world.

      --
      Charles Wyble System Engineer
    6. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by miffo.swe · · Score: 1

      I work pretty much with vmware and it does have its fair share of quirks and bugs. Sometime drivers (on the host side) stops working, hostmachines wont start when stopped/started but after having reset the host instead five times?? That for med suggests that bugs arent absent. Some of theese bugs are probably possible to use for exploits. My strong suspicion is that vmware isnt at all that safe but for now its much easier to break into the Windows machines running as guests directly instead.

      --
      HTTP/1.1 400
    7. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by CTho9305 · · Score: 1

      Unless that hypervisor is burned into a non-rewritable form of storage (e.g. ROM), it will be subverted.

      As it has been demonstrated at Black Hat by the illustrious Ms. Rutowska, (as well as being fairly obvious to anyone familiar with hypervisors) a hypervisor is below the OS and can be impervious to the OS's probing, but it still lies between the OS and the hardware.


      I think trusted computing takes care of that for you. The Trusted Platform Module will give you a cryptographic hash of all running software; if any level of the software stack has been replaced, the signature won't match.

    8. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Full Disclosure: I have a Ph.D. (2006) in InfoSec.

      Eh? FYI, the phrase "Full Disclosure" is used for example when you may be biased (i.e. personally involved in a story) and want to play fair game. Just a friendly warning: Your use of that phrase to introduce a paragraph telling us you have a degree makes you look like a pathetic loser or poser at best.

      Full disclosure: M.A. in CS over here. ;-)

    9. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by querist · · Score: 1

      >the problem with being focused .... you tend to forget real world details.

      I work full-time in industry in InfoSec. Please try to avoid such baseless attacks in an attempt to support your flawed reasoning. Also, I worked full-time WHILE pursuing my Ph.D., so I have fully immersed in real-world InfoSec during and after my doctoral studies.

      I am not spreading FUD. If you read the entire post, you would have seen the reasoning. Current rootkit detection and other malware detection relies on the operating system. A hypervisor is between the OS and the hardware, making it undetectable by the operating system.

      THAT was the point. This gives malware authors a new place to hide that will make detection nearly impossible, otherwise it is not a true hypervisor.

      And to answer your question about other virtualization solutions is that other virtualization solutions, at least things like Xen, VMWare, and Parallels (I do not do much with mainframes), is that they run inside of an operating system, and it is possible to observe their activities from outside the virtual environment.

      Perhaps an illustration is in order:

      I have a Mac and run XP Pro in Parallels. If a rootkit is installed on my XP Pro VM, XP Pro may not be able to see it. However, the network activity that it generates is still visible to Wireshark running on my Mac OUTSIDE of Parallels (the virtulization software).

      In the proposed Dell scenario, you are running XP Pro inside of a virtualized environment that is being virtualized by the motherboard. Your XP Pro has a rootkit. How will you discover it unless you are monitoring it from a different machine?

      Given that I own both Parallels and VM Ware Fusion for my main system it should be clear that I feel that virtualization is useful, especially for security (the main reason I have them). If you read my post you would have realized that this is not about virtualization itself being bad. It is about the details of the proposed Dell implementation, with the virtualization being in the hardware, so to speak, and thus between the OS and the "real" hardware that is the issue.

    10. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by querist · · Score: 1

      Actually, posting ad hominem attacks as an Anonymous Coward is a tell-tale sign that you are a poser or pathetic loser.

      People with legitimate qualifications (such as doctorates, lawyers, etc.) in their respective fields should indicate such to help people filter out the noise.

      I will be happy to communicate with the editors to have them verify my credentials. They know how to contact me. I do not post the url to my university web site because I do not feel like having people like you spam me.

    11. Re:Please, do not make this the only option by charlesnw · · Score: 1

      Um. I did read your entire post. You mention that I didn't several times. If I didn't read your post how could I have replied to it? :) Try again grasshopper. Try again.

      --
      Charles Wyble System Engineer
  24. I was thinking that, too by CdBee · · Score: 1

    I suppose a hpyervizor doesn't need or take control of hardware components the way an O/S would but even so, I'd be concerned that a virus if it could somehow get into the flash ROM (or be compulsorily included there by the US National Security Agency) might be undetectable to O/S based virus scanning as the Boot ROM doesn't appear as a mountable volume and is never checked....

    --
    I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
  25. Re:Yes, but: So what? by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

    > Its more secure having the actually memory embedded inside the machine instead on the outside
    > in a port, accessible for anyone that have physicall access to your office.

    So? CF to IDE bridge taped down in a drive bay. Flash to IDE header gadget plugged direct to an IDE header. They even have em that plug direct to USB headers on the MoBo now. Give em a while and they will have em to direct plug to SATA, assuming they don't now and I just didn't see em last time I was looking stuff like that.

    Point being that is almost certainly all Dell will be doing. So why wait, if it is a good idea, just do it!

    --
    Democrat delenda est
  26. Re:Yes, but: So what? by badfish99 · · Score: 1

    Anything is vendor-supported if I pay for vendor support. It doesn't have to be embedded in a flash chip.

    The advantage of this is that it is vendor-supported by a vendor of Dell's choice. Presumably they then give Dell a kick-back. OK, that's an advantage for Dell, not for the purchaser.

  27. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Burz · · Score: 4, Informative

    Presumably having Dell's hypervisor load instantly at power-up could prevent other virtualizers from running, including hypervisor-based rootkits like Blue Pill.

  28. Re:Yes, but: So what? by PalmKiller · · Score: 1

    yes, but its a marketing feature, not something that is of any real importance

  29. Smoke and Mirrors. by twitter · · Score: 1

    Compromise a guest and you haven't compromised the machine.

    What outside the "guest" is of any use to a desktop user?

    I'm with the OP, I don't want Windoze or OSX so I don't want a non free VM getting between me and my OS or my OS and hardware. I don't have boot or power management problems with my OS, so the VM offers me nothing.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Smoke and Mirrors. by dpilot · · Score: 1

      Run your user account inside a guest, and at least the base OS won't get compromised, and you won't need to reinstall. Run your browser and/or email inside a guest inside your account, and you won't have to worry about virii or web nasties compromising your precious code and data. It's all about damage limitation/confinement.

      I don't want a non-free VM, either. I'm figuring that right now Linux has so darned many virtualization options that whenever I have the right hardware, I can just pick one.

      This also presumes that with the right hardware features, virtualization is cheap, in terms of cycles and disk space.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    2. Re:Smoke and Mirrors. by Sancho · · Score: 1

      Maybe the people who make operating systems should fix these problems WITHIN THE OS. Operating systems are supposed to do this anyway!

    3. Re:Smoke and Mirrors. by dpilot · · Score: 1

      They should. I just consider it another layer. By the OpenBSD philosophy, you don't need a firewall. I try and run my systems that way, but I use a firewall, anyway. I'm not sure exactly how many layers I'd like to have, I guess it depends on how expensive they are. But I do know that I want more than 1 layer, at least.

      --
      The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    4. Re:Smoke and Mirrors. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Run your browser and/or email inside a guest inside your account, and you won't have to worry about virii or web nasties compromising your precious code and data. It's all about damage limitation/confinement.

      Is that supposed to be a joke? I read my email via a shell account and browse from a user account with limited privileges and group memberships. I also browse without flash, java or javascript. If I need javascript I switch to a tty, login to a separate account with sudo privs and modprobe kqemu. There's really no reason for putting a hypervisor on the main board other than to lock users out of their hardware.

      The plural of "virus" is "viruses" BTW.

  30. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Ironsides · · Score: 1

    1) Cost. They would have to design the mobos and test them.
    2) The IDE header is not going to be used in profesional servers. For one, they don't have IDE anymore. They have SATA or SCSI.
    3) The USB headers are not going to have as high of an uptime compared to something dell could build onto the motherboard (in theory, supposing dell does'nt screw up. This is required due to what most server buyers need is reliability for servers that run 24/7/365.25. Adding in what you suggested, the first thing to fail would most likely be either the flash or the adapter.

    --
    Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  31. No Vista Basic or Premium by MSRedfox · · Score: 1

    For Vista, the only option OS wise will the the more expensive models. Both Vista Basic and Premium aren't allowed to run on any kind of VM. I guess that will limit Dell's usage for home users.

  32. Not if it's REALLY doing its job by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 1

    Presumably having Dell's hypervisor load instantly at power-up could prevent other virtualizers from running, including hypervisor-based rootkits like Blue Pill.

    Not if it's really doing its job.

    A virtual machine should be able to virtualize another layer of similar virtual machines - including instances of itself. Otherwise there's something defective about the virtualization.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Not if it's REALLY doing its job by WeblionX · · Score: 1

      So you're saying it's hypervisors all the way down?

      --
      (\(\
      (=_=) Bani!
      (")")
  33. Not sure what the big deal is by Sloppy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's easy to see how moving more stuff from the disk to flash is "slicker" and can make things load a little bit quicker (but seriously: how much? I doubt transferring hypervisors, kernels, or boot managers (e.g. grub) from disk is a major factor in boot times). But what's so special about hypervisors? Forget making this "solution" so specific. Just build a few dozen megabytes of disk-like (bootable) flash into the board, and let the user decide if they just want to use it for a hypervisor, or move a whole bunch more stuff into there in an effort to try to get their modern machine boot as fast as an Amiga.

    The one thing that it occurs to me that such an answer would really help with, is working around a certain (dumb) Linux limitation. Booting off EVMS is tricky (or at least it was, last time I looked). Move your boot off-disk, then you can EVMS your whole disk.

    And what's this about "security?" The article doesn't explain why it mentions security, and that's not a surprise, because there's no reason it would be more secure. As other have pointed out, "security" is obviously being used as a codeword for something very, very different (i.e. having the machine serve someone else's interest (e.g. MPAA) at the expense of the user's interest).

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    1. Re:Not sure what the big deal is by imgunby · · Score: 1
      (but seriously: how much? I doubt transferring hypervisors, kernels, or boot managers (e.g. grub) from disk is a major factor in boot times).


      I'm not sure about how it would affect overall boot time, but as to the how much... milliseconds compared to nanoseconds. It's a considerable speed boost, but again, I don't think it would dramatically improve boot times.

  34. Reality check by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Let's be clear; Dell is talking about servers with built-in hypervisors. Extrapolating these plans to desktop PCs is just unfounded speculation.

    Their Hypervisor will enforce DRM, so even linux can't override it.

    Servers don't care about DRM.

    They'll make it so all device drivers must be signed to go into the
    Hypervisor which will be the only thing with any I/O privs that aren't
    virtualized.


    OK, this is true. ESX requires special drivers.

    They'll make it so new hardware has closed interfaces and can only be
    supported by a driver at the Hypervisor level.


    On the contrary; Dell has been driving companies like Broadcom and Adaptec to open up and offer open source drivers. AFAIK the only reason we have the tg3 driver is because Dell told Broadcom to provide Linux drivers.

  35. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Blue Pill doesn't apply to hypervisors without standard hosts OSs, anyway.

  36. Re:Yes, but: So what? by couchslug · · Score: 1

    "Its more secure having the actually memory embedded inside the machine instead on the outside in a port, accessible for anyone that have physicall access to your office."

    The same pieces could easily be inside the case. Not all USB ports are external. Of course, SATA CF adapters have been available for sometime:

    http://www.fastsilicon.com/storage-reviews/addonic s-adsahdcf-sata-cf-adapter-review-6.html?Itemid=27

    By the way, anyone have links to tutorials for installing a hypervisor to such a setup?

    --
    "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
  37. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Znork · · Score: 1

    If you were paying big $$$ for enterprise support, would you get a server with GRUB or LILO embedded on the motherboard?

    Would you buy one with the kernel and initrds on flash installed on the motherboard?

    Personally I wouldnt; Dell has no competence in those areas, and even should they try to build it, they'd end up constantly trailing the OS vendors, introducing random bugs and being far less integrated and standardized than what the mainline products are.

    I see little difference in the hypervisor area; hardware vendors can just barely manage keeping BIOSes bugfree enough to get an OS running, expecting them to be able to manage and keep hypervisor software up to date isnt even on the horizon.

  38. Lame shorthand by Thaelon · · Score: 1

    Dell Considers Bundling Virtualization on Motherboards

    There, fixed that for you. Asshat.
    --

    Question everything

    1. Re:Lame shorthand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      by Cockmonster (250687) on Thursday August 09, @04:01PM (#20174073)
      There, fixed that for you. Asshat.
    2. Re:Lame shorthand by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As I wrote to another ignorant.. the story submission has restrictions on how many characters the headline may have. "Mobo" is a rather standard abbreviation actually. Can't blame you for not knowing trivial geek things like this though.

  39. Re:Yes, but: So what? by adolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    3) The USB headers are not going to have as high of an uptime compared to something dell could build onto the motherboard (in theory, supposing dell does'nt screw up. This is required due to what most server buyers need is reliability for servers that run 24/7/365.25. Adding in what you suggested, the first thing to fail would most likely be either the flash or the adapter.

    I take issue with everything you say here.

    There is no qualitative reason why USB should not have, as you say, "as high of an uptime" as anything else which plugs into a computer. In fact, the opposite is likely to be true: USB, having finally grown into something that generally doesn't suck, has been tested and revised for over a decade, and is far more likely to be resolutely reliable than any newly-developed interface technology which has not been so rigorously abused. It's a single point of failure, sure, but it share that disadvantage with SCSI, SATA, PCI Express, and all other likely candidates for connection.

    I would further like to submit that the first thing to fail in any flash-based installation in a personal computer will be either the flash chip itself, its interface chip (ala "adapter"), or one of the supporting components (resistors, capacitors - that sort of stuff).

    Finally, I'd like to speculate that all Dell will be doing is installing a flash device onto a USB bus. The hardware and software to accomplish this were finished years ago, and thus long ago entered the category of being free (as in beer) for Dell (particularly their marketing departments) to take advantage of.

  40. Awesome by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It goes against my religion and I have no use for it, therefore it's worthless. Get rid of it, Smithers.

  41. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Sylver+Dragon · · Score: 1

    Support and TCO.
    If I have a Dell provided chip on a Dell motherboard which goes out, they will fix it. If I have a Mickey-Mouse setup with a USB flash device, you can bet they are going to try and blame that for my woes first. And, guess who is on the hook for fixing it if it goes south? Moreover, the difference in cost is going to be slight. This chip will probably raise the overall price of the motherboard by a couple hundred, at most. The time I spend futzing around with getting an external solution running is going to cost more in the long run, my employer is paying me good money for that time, and any time spent fixing it. Take a quick look at what even a tech is going to cost:
    Say they get paid $17/hour as full-time staff. Then you're paying workman's comp, taxes, health care, etc. Overall it's probably costing the employer around $30/hour for that tech. So, if he spends a day on that solution your spending about $240 for it. Just eat the up front cost from Dell, and make them fix the damn thing, that tech has better things to do with his time.

    --
    Necessity is the mother of invention.
    Laziness is the father.
  42. What this is all (ultimately) about: by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 1

    Forcing me (the computer's owner) to give up control of the lowest level of my computer. At which point they [Computer makers + Media corporations + MS] will be free to insert every kind of phone-home rootkit, DRM, "trusted" computing and other shit they want. Of course, they will because it's in their financial interests to be able to force you and me to pay any price they want, no matter how extortionate it may be. And since they've forced me out of the bottom-most level, there's nothing I can do to get rid of it.

    And oh, there will of course be bugs in it. Exploitable bugs. Which crackers will use to pwn me with no possibility of ever being able to secure myself against them, because I can't uninstall the shit they're taking advantage of or block them out.

    Virtualization: Good.
    Without me at the helm of the root VM: No thank you, let's not ever go down that path. Ever. In fact, hell no.

  43. Here's my tips... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Admittedly, I haven't had cause to call Dell, but this works well for my ISP:

    1. Be honest. I know it's unusual advice, but if you attempt to bullshit your way through something, you may piss off the tech if they know what you're talking about -- or worse, they might believe you and skip a crucial step you didn't think you had to do.
    2. Be polite. Some of the following suggestions may require you to say something sort of condescending, so try your damnedest not to sound that way. And it goes without saying -- don't raise your voice.
    3. Don't swear. They are allowed to hang up on you if you do.
    4. Use big words that you don't actually need. See point #1 -- don't make stuff up -- but there's a good chance that if the tech actually doesn't understand what you're talking about, they'll escalate to someone who does.
    5. Be authoritative on what you do know. For example, if they tell you to reboot because they want you to try to get a new DHCP lease, suggest something like "ipconfig /renew". Assert that you do, in fact, know how DHCP works, and ask them to tell you what more rebooting will do. See point #2, though -- do it respectfully.
    6. Be willing to take steps you know are pointless. By now, you've tried steps #4 and #5, so you've got a very stubborn (probably stupid) tech who's sticking to a script. If you follow obediently, even if you really do the steps (remember point #1), you'll eventually either get to the good stuff, or they'll run out of script and escalate you.
    7. Try not to hang up -- if you call back later, you might even get the same person, depending on the size of the company. Either way, the tech you get first is not going to be one of the smart ones, because those are busy dealing with the calls that got escalated.
    8. Reward the techs who do well. When they're done, ask if you can speak to their manager, and put in a good word for them -- how helpful they were, how quickly your problem was solved, etc etc. It might help them get a promotion, but even if they don't, it means they're a lot less likely to be laid off than the dipshit down the hall who wants you to "ipconfig /renew" on a Mac. If enough of us do this, hopefully, we'll help in a sort of natural selection of better techs.

    I'm thinking of writing a guide like this and distributing it, because these same principles do hold for anyone, regardless of technical skill. The language might change a bit -- for example, a nontechnical person should follow step #6 because what they "know" is not always true, and if they really knew everything, they wouldn't be calling for a tech. But the habits are the same.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    1. Re:Here's my tips... by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      I envy your optimism. My experiences have only reinforced my cynicism, however.

      I always start my (thankfully frequent, usually RMA-related) tech-support calls with "hey, I'm on a bad connection, I might get disconnected...". Really, this is just my polite way of saying 'if you turn out to be dumber than a bag of hammers, I'm just going to hang up and call back in twenty and see if I can get someone better than you.' It's possible that I should just be up-front about this, but I figure why make enemies, even stupid ones.

      Admittedly, this probably reinforces the crappy techs, because it means they get to log a short-duration call and the better tech that I might get on my second or third try will have to try harder to get the same numbers, but honestly I think the companies that run the big call-centers have internal QC methodologies that are so fundamentally flawed, that it doesn't really matter what you, as a customer, do. Anyone with a clue is going to get the hell out of a call center as quickly as they can, so they're always going to be idiot-heavy. Just do what you have to do, to get what you need.

      I'm not really interested in helping them improve their metrics or even their quality, particularly since most companies seem so disinterested in doing anything about it themselves. All I want is to get the resolution I'm looking for as quickly as I can. If the easiest way to do that is to hang up and call back and get a different tech, that's what I'm going to do.

      The rest of your advice is probably good, though. Although if I'm talking to someone that I know is a complete idiot, and they start doing something that's ridiculous or is going to cause me problems later ("okay, now let's try reformatting your hard drive..."), I'm either going to refuse to do it, or (if they're really stubborn) I'm going to dry-lab it and tell them the results that will get them to check off that line on their script and keep going towards the resolution I want.

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Here's my tips... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

      if you turn out to be dumber than a bag of hammers, I'm just going to hang up and call back in twenty and see if I can get someone better than you.

      Well, you can be up front about it without being an asshole -- and he might actually say "You know what, you're right, I can't handle this -- lemme get my supervisor."

      Or you can specifically ask for the supervisor, etc... Point is, my goal is to get the problem solved, and if the first tech I call can't help me, I probably want the next tier up.

      Asking flat-out can, in fact, work with some of the larger companies. I remember calling Apple about a hardware issue, and the support person who told me they wouldn't be fixing my Powerbook for free was more than happy to send me up the chain until I finally got a manager type who could actually give me the real reason and the policy behind it.

      I'm not really interested in helping them improve their metrics or even their quality, particularly since most companies seem so disinterested in doing anything about it themselves. All I want is to get the resolution I'm looking for as quickly as I can.

      The two are related. You might get that resolution quicker next time if the "dumber than a bag of hammers" people get fired, especially if they get fired quickly enough that management notices and tightens their standards, maybe starts to pay more for it.

      Also, I imagine with your attitude (refusing to follow instructions, hanging up, lying, etc), even if it's all very well justified, it's got to make a tech's life hell -- which makes people want to get the hell out of there -- which makes it even more likely that the next time you call, you'll get someone even dumber.

      If the easiest way to do that is to hang up and call back and get a different tech, that's what I'm going to do.

      I just don't find that to be more effective. ALL the first-line guys are going to be somewhat dumb, except the ones that are overdue for a promotion (which are pretty rare). Second best are those who know how inept they are, so they know when to escalate you.

      I figure, I want this problem solved as quickly as possible -- in wall time -- not in as little of MY time as possible. So if I can be on the phone for 20 minutes doing bullshit, and get escalated at the end of it, it's better than calling back in 20 mins and getting another moron, trying again in 20 mins for another moron -- waiting on hold, too, most likely -- and in maybe an hour or two, I get someone who knows what they're talking about.

      Although if I'm talking to someone that I know is a complete idiot, and they start doing something that's ridiculous or is going to cause me problems later ("okay, now let's try reformatting your hard drive...")

      Well, I know how to take a disk image, so reformatting isn't as huge a deal. Time consuming, yes, and I will fight it as long as I can -- but it won't actually cause problems.

      I do this for two reasons: Sometimes they are right, and if I flat-out refuse, the next tech might ask the same thing -- it helps a lot if they really and truly can cross it off for the entire issue.

      I'm going to dry-lab it and tell them the results that will get them to check off that line on their script and keep going towards the resolution I want.

      See, the reason I don't do that -- pretty much ever -- is that you don't really know what results to tell them. You can probably fake it pretty well, but there's also a good chance you're fucking with their process -- for example, what if that reformat actually did fix the issue? (I mean, if smoke's coming out of it, maybe not, but other issues...) So now, even if they send you a new piece of hardware and that works, you've now fucked with their processes -- they are now confused about a perfectly good solution not working, and may have to pick an even more retarded one.

      Also, have y

      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  44. Could block access to hardware... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    There are certain chunks of hardware, actual CPU instructions, etc which have been introduced recently to make virtualization more efficient.

    However, I don't think it would do very well against something like Blue Pill, because that could just as easily implement a softer virtualizer -- it would just appear to run a little slower.

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  45. Hard drive? by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 1

    Why not just "embed" it in the first 20 megs or so of the hard drive? (Or 100 megs, or 1 gig, given the size of modern storage...)

    The only advantage I see to doing it with flash is that they could lock it down, and also, you could theoretically hot-swap SATA (or USB) drives, each with an OS on it (and maybe a "saved image" from the virtualizer, like hibernating). Even if you don't actually physically hot-swap them, you could spin down the drive you're not using.

    Of course, if it was me doing this, I'd just get 3 drives (or more) and build a software RAID, and run my virtualized OSes on top of that, so I get a nice performance boost (at the cost of more power required to keep them all spinning)...

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  46. faster boot times? by cycoj · · Score: 1

    One thing that bugs me about this article, it claims that it would make boot times faster, how? Sure if the hypervisor boots from flash that would be there in an instant, but we still need to boot a proper os, and that ususally will happen from disk. So no difference to booting the os directly, if anything it would boot a little slower (the hypervisor boot-time). How is there something I'm missing. Cheers Cyco

    1. Re:faster boot times? by titten · · Score: 1

      What makes booting a virtual server faster than a physical one is mainly the fact that the POST and hardware initialization only takes a second or so.

  47. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Hatta · · Score: 1

    In what way is this functionally different than the same hypervisor being installed on a bootable USB flash drive/IDE-attached CompactFlash card/[insert other stupid-simple method of booting from flash]?

    Is there such a thing? How would one do this?

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  48. TPM/DRM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It still is. It's the "I'm afraid of the consequences of my own actions" people who've hijacked the topic for their own ends.

  49. Dell following Intel by adm1329 · · Score: 1

    The last Intel IPD conference I was at, Intel was announcing they were going to be including Virtualization on some of their boards.

  50. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Ironsides · · Score: 1

    Gah, typo. Meant to say USB adapter, not USB header. As in the compact flash to USB adapter.
    Also, I was talking about what the GGP was saying about a Flash to IDE, which would be a CONSUMER FLASH CARD with a CONSUMER IDE ADAPTER. It was with this following sentence in mind that I wrote (3).

    So? CF to IDE bridge taped down in a drive bay. Flash to IDE header gadget plugged direct to an IDE header. They even have em that plug direct to USB headers on the MoBo now.

    Both of which would be the most likely to fail in a server over the other things.

    --
    Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  51. Re:Yes, but: So what? by adolf · · Score: 1

    I have a CF card mounted on an expansion card bracket at the back of the case. A simple thing, really: PCB with a 4-pin power connector, CF slot, 40-pin IDE connector, and a couple of LEDs for status, all fastened to a bracket so that the card protrudes neatly through a slot at the back of the case.

    It's definitely a "consumer" adapter -- I think I paid $8, total, to have it delivered to Ohio from Hong Kong. But like most mass-produced electronic items in this millennium, the soldering is quite good, and the connectors look to be of fine quality. I expect that it should prove to be a very durable implement.

    I don't know what else I should expect of such an item, nor do I see any obvious manner in which to improve it.

    Could you please be more elaborate on the topic of what a professional-grade CF-to-IDE adapter might consist of?

  52. Re:Yes, but: So what? by Ironsides · · Score: 1

    A profesional grade CF to IDE adapter wouldn't exist for servers. Partly because servers don't use IDE. By the way, in this case, I am talking about servers coming from companies that build servers to order, not some computer that was custom built by an individual to be a server.

    Now, as to what the CF to whatever interface would have, that would be a bit more than you describe?

    Lets see, a bit of redundancy, designed and tested to be in use most of the time, temperature extreme testing, guaranteed throughput/read time from the card/interface, basically something quite a bit more 'rugged' than what you'd find at Best Buy. Kind of like the difference between IDE drives and SCSI drives.

    --
    Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
  53. No DRM. No performance, No directX by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    I am surprised no-one called all these 3 things:

    1. The license of MS does not allow DRM content (like playing a dvd) in a virtual machine. Unless dell can get a different license from MS.
    2. Virtualsation still comes with performance cost. 3% up to 50%. Not good for your benchmarks. Unless you think a Pentium II 450Mhz still is fast enough.
    3. Drivers. Forget directX 9c or directX 10. Forget Vista Aero.

    On a company box there is no problem running in a hypervisor since all 3 points are not important there. Performance can be made good for by buying more hardware (Dell like that), and the latest directX is no need on a regular desktop that uses integrated intel video.

    1. Re:No DRM. No performance, No directX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is intended for server platforms, so no question of playing DVDs and games .

  54. Some cool ideas.. by pakar · · Score: 1

    Another cool idea for this could be to include some hardware monitor that always will run on the system, so without any OS-dependant things you could easily get a hardware report from the system without installing ANY type of OS monitor except maybe for something that just connects to the hw-monitor and generates a logfile..

    And with this maybe we could get a 'driver-independent' environment too. For each hardware just put the drivers on the flash and then just have a generic API for all network-cards etc. Could probably save the companies quite a bit to have one general driver for all different OS'es. Only thing required for this is some type of shared memory between the driver-instance and the os-instance, and since they then would have these drivers on flash the drivers could be optimized for that specific hardware without the need to tune the OS.

    And if they dont lock these things down you could write really cool things like a iscsi-initiator that behaves like a scsi-card for the system.. No need to get a iscsi-hba for booting and no need for iscsi-initiators on the host-os that can screw things up like if you are swapping over iscsi on a linux system and you run out of RAM for the networking-part.

    Another few cool ideas for the driver-stuff:
    - Virtual network-interface for a specific vlan. Would be perfect if you want to have some virtual production-systems and DMZ'ed systems on the same physical hardware as your firewall.
    - Semi-hardware raid that uses the main cpu for the work but without having the need for badly written drivers. (ie, just one raid-sw code-tree to maintain)
    - Nvidia/ATI etc could write a generic driver for all os'es and then the os would just need to implement a generic driver for all OpenGL cards.. No more need for binary blobs in Linux and less code for nvidia to maintain since the generic opengl-driver stuff would be moved to the OS-vendor and that could also enable sharing of a gfx-card with OpenGL capabilities for multiple virtual systems at the same time.
    - Encryption layer for the RAID without having some type of OS support for it. One generic driver works for all and keys could be from anywhere like keyboard-input or USB-memory.
    - a REAL os-independent save-to-disk function. Since the os just have generic drivers only those would need to have support for it and it would be the driver-instance that would take care of saving the actual system-state.
    - 'Swap-driver' that could map both ram and disk space as 'virtual ram' that would enable the system to share physical memory between the machines. But ofcourse this could cause a ugly-swap state if trying to use to much ram between the systems, but that could be solved by having some type of extension of the os'es that could monitor the total system memory-usage.

    All this would both reduce the number of drivers that the OS-vendors need to support and also reduce the number of drivers that the hardware vendors needs to maintain if they want to support multiple-platforms and would probably give us more stable drivers since they will have a bigger testing-ground and also less types of OS-specific configurations.

    1. Re:Some cool ideas.. by gwern · · Score: 1

      So... to simplify operating systems, you would run them in - an operating system? I hate to break it to you, but those are all things that current OSs can/should do.

    2. Re:Some cool ideas.. by pakar · · Score: 1

      Well, that depends on what you call an OS.. but sure, in the most strict form this might be classified as some sort of OS, but if you would like you could call the bios-code an OS.. It just depends where you draw the line..

      The idea was just to separate the hardware/OS with a simple layer that could be implemented in dedicated hardware OR as an extra 'process' that you would run on the hypervisor..

  55. to server or not server. by leuk_he · · Score: 1

    In the article nowhere is said that this is server software. I can imagine this kind of software just fine on a desktop that runs a browser, mail and office software for the average office warrior. As it won't play dvd they can even save a few dollar cent they won't have to pay to dvd patents holders

  56. Re:Yes, but: So what? by adolf · · Score: 1

    I guess I'll play along.

    By your definition of "server," it seems we only have three such built-to-order machines here in use here at the shop. They're all Prolaint ML330s of various generations, custom ordered from Compaq or HP. The oldest one has SCSI RAID, the newest one has IDE RAID. All include at least one additional IDE port for the CD-ROM drive.

    So I guess that some servers do use IDE, since these particular ones all seem to be serving just fine.

    "Ah," I hear you say, "but those machines are ancient!"

    So go on and head over to Dell, the vendor in question. Configure yourself a nice new $10,000 Poweredge 6800. Note the distinct inclusion of IDE CD-ROM drives, and thus the obvious inclusion of at least one IDE port.

    The rest of your argument is, therefore, without merit. But even if it weren't: CF to IDE adapters are passive devices, need no testing beyond that which a cable would be subjected to, and play no factor in throughput or latency. Furthermore, flash devices can trivially be made as absolutely redundant as any other storage device in a PC.

    Finally, ruggedness: This is only a PC. There is no redundant logic. If you go about jabbing screwdrivers into it, hitting it with a hammer, throwing salt water into it, or dropping it, it will fail. The adapter need only be as rugged as anything else inside of the box, which is not a very difficult standard to meet.

    Are you done yet?

  57. Re:Yes, but: So what? by adolf · · Score: 1

    Yes. It's easy.

    Anything which can boot and run from an IDE disk can also run from a Compact Flash card, with the right adapter (Google for one). I've got things ranging from an old version of Slackware running on a flash-based 386 laptop, to a diskless Windows XP machine, which use this trick.

    You see, CF cards inherently know how to act just like it is a regular IDE disk drive. The adapters are completely passive, and exist merely to supply power to the card and convert the small pin layout of a CF card to the much larger pin layout of a typical IDE cable.

    So, if the mythological hypervisor actually exists and the hardware can run it, then it can boot from flash. The software doesn't know, or care, that it's operating from flash.

    Most relatively recent motherboards also generally support booting from a bog-standard USB drive. This is often trickier, because whatever operating system/hypervisor/microkernel/whatever you're booting will probably eventually realize that there's USB ports in place and attempt to control them by itself. If it handles this changeover in an inconsiderate fashion, it will crash. But if the software was built with booting from USB as one of the design considerations, it generally will work fine -- Knoppix, for instance, is supposed to be fairly easy to run from a thumb drive on mostly random hardware.

    Expect to see more of this sort of activity as programs and data remain relatively small and flash continues plummeting in price.