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NZ, Sweden, Hungary Reflect OOXML Turmoil
A number of readers are sending news of the progress of Microsoft's attempt to get OOXML standardized by ISO. First off, New Zealand has voted "no" on the question. In Sweden, after the uproar following the "yes" vote there, a Microsoft representative has admitted buying Swedish OOXML votes (link in Swedish — follow the Read More... link below for some translated quotes). Computerworld has also picked up the Sweden story. Finally, from Hungary, reader ens0niq writes that the Minister of Economy and Transport has sent a letter to the General Director of the Hungarian Standards Institution requiring that the June 25 "yes" vote be re-done because of irregularities. Our correspondent notes, however, that many Microsoft partners have joined the voting committee in the meanwhile, so the result could be a replay of Sweden's experience.
Here are some quotes from the Swedish article translated by our anonymous correspondent.
-We have been informing our business partners about the process at SIS. What is going on, what the time plan is and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard.
-In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes. As a compensation they would get "market benefits" and extra support in terms of Microsoft resources.
-This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
-I can understand the critique about coup-like voting. But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
(Interviewer) -Has this harmed Microsoft?
-Time will tell. But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard.
Here are some quotes from the Swedish article translated by our anonymous correspondent.
-We have been informing our business partners about the process at SIS. What is going on, what the time plan is and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard.
-In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes. As a compensation they would get "market benefits" and extra support in terms of Microsoft resources.
-This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
-I can understand the critique about coup-like voting. But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
(Interviewer) -Has this harmed Microsoft?
-Time will tell. But almost all customers we have been talking to thinks it would be good if OOXML became an ISO standard.
who just uttered "Fucking Word!", I can't imagine why they'd have to buy the vote...
-Matthew Riley "TofuMatt" MacPherson
I have a website
One can only hope that enough publicity to the "irregularities" will force the votes to be better controlled and conducted in the future.
Yes MS got the Swedish vote - but I think they will find it to be a Phyrric victory.
>But I claim the voters knew the issue well and had their own interest in OOXML becoming an ISO standard.
If this is true, then why
1) does MS tell their partners in the letter on which arguments for OOMXL they should use? MS even advises their partners to not use "too technical" arguments (are there "technical" arguments in favour of OOMXL anyway??).
2) does MS tell their partners to go to one or two meetings AFTER the voting to prove they are not only in it for this single vote?
Microsoft, it offends me that you don't even try to hide your manipulations anymore. It's all out in the open. Everybody can see that the whole process is bullshit. As long as it's legal or can be twisted to look legal, you don't seem to mind anymore. Other businesses at least make an effort not to upset the public that is being raped.
This is awesome. Microsoft buys votes, and then, after voting has been completed, they can simply turn around and claim that they will not follow up on their promises given to their vote-selling partners!
Yeah, I know, nothing new here. Just needed to vent
Capitalism: When it uses the carrot, it's called democracy. When it uses the stick, it's called fascism.
Why is it always the fault of a single employee if something goes wrong, and the success of the team if things go right? Where is their fucking backbone to stand with the people in the company?
I mean, what incentive to the employees now have to do the right things? Well, if there's going to be blame, you're literally on your own, and always have been. If there's a success, it's definitely not your success.
Is it me, or is there a shift towards a "something wrong? blame the individual!"-style behaviour?
B.
Every experiment which ends in a big bang is a good experiment.
What I am asking is this: let's assume that Microsoft spends major bucks to get their OOXML stuff accepted in a few different countries through a standards committee, but then the standard is proven to NOT be open -- as is being shown by work already in progress -- but that the lack of openness and the bad press generated by their blatant vote buys in the mean time pretty much corrupts the market value of their standard anyway.
What do you think?
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a single employee on his own initiative without sanctions from Microsoft. He also quickly realised his mistake and tried to recall the letter.
Was this employee fired?
It's just a simple excuse that people can't counter easily. Everybody knows it's effectively Microsoft the corporation that sent those letters, but for Microsoft it's simple to use a, real or imagined, employee as shield.
Had it been a real rogue employee that had sent those letters then we'd be hearing he/she had been fired instantly - since this is effectively fraud/falsification in the company's name. We haven't seen any such firing, hence it must be supported from higher above.
The problem for Microsoft is how much publicity this story got. Apparently more than they had anticipated.
Fight for your digital freedom, join the EFF *now*: http://www.eff.org/support/
CodeShark (the GP) made the mistake of thinking like a person instead of a manager.
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
I know that everyone on slashdot is shocked, shocked <\voice> to find Microsoft twisting the arms of their partners. I mean, it's not like they've ever done something like with with PC manufacturers who want to pre-install another OS, or anything.
It's mildy amusing to hear the feigned shock and dismay when Microsoft pulls their antics. At this point, behavior of this stripe should the expected outcome of any situation where Microsoft is involved. Whatever they may have done right in the past, for the last seven or eight years they've been heading down a path that makes it clear they'll do anything to crush competition (except actually produce a better product)
We all know what they're going to do before they even get their PR machine going. One hint: it won't be the right thing.
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OOXML seems to be, from a technical standpoint, such a poorly constructed format that voting on whether or not to name it a standard is just silly. It should have been turned down long ago for its flagrant stupidities and sent back to Redmond with a post-it saying "nice joke!" attached.
Sure, that's the point. However, if it becomes a standard anyway, that doesn't mean that after the fact MS is going to be voiding any patents! (The only "hope" would be if it were necessary to void the patents in order to get standards acceptance.)
Remember that any overlap between logic and committees is pure coincidence!
Ben Hocking
Need a professional organizer?
<w:r rogue:empidRPr='MS00404922' xmlns:rogue="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/o oxml/sp2/employee/curtain">s p2/employee/curtain"/>
<w:ignoreElements w:val="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/ooxml/
<w:rPr>
<w:rStyle w:val='rogue'/>
</w:rPr>
<w:t>Hey, guys! Vote yes on our standard and we'll send you some free T-shirts and mugs!</w:t>
</w:r>
While Americans consider graft to be wrong, many American companies find the only way to access foreign markets is to pay off the corrupt gatekeepers. This doesn't neccessarily mean the people of those countries are inferior for failing to erradicate corruption, it just means their culture holds 'different' values.
The BBC has a nice page of links to key reports regarding how various countries and politicians around the world held 'different' cultural values in the Oil-For-Food scandal.
A thin veneer of XML over the old binary data? Check.
Encumbered by patents and other "intellectual property"? Check.
Unimplementable without 500 man-years of effort and a whole lot of inside knowledge? Check.
You've got to hand it to Microsoft, this is brilliant stuff. It's just as much of a lock-in as the old binary data ever was but they've got ISO voting to make it a new standard. It's amazing what a few free lunches can buy.
No sig today...
It was not just America's DOJ that nothing. It has been ALL of the ocuntries DOJ that have done nothing. Has EU fined AND collected MS? Has EU punished MS by telling them that they can only sell x # of copies? Have they limited MS in anyway or shape that prevent this kind of BS over in Europe? How about in Japan? Canada? China? Russia? Mexico? Where ever? Is there ANY country that has had the balls to do what is right?
Near as I can tell, NOT A ONE. Welcome to the global economy.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Not always, you could have a standard fully documenting what to do and still have a lot of room for proprietary IP and patents covering your particular implementation.
Whatever little thing you can. Even small steps count.
It's easy to bemoan the fact that there's this large corporation with a virtual monopoly on desktop operating systems and office tools. The wailing and gnashing of teeth across slashdot about this is almost ceaseless.
My suggestion (and something I'm doing myself) is to think of ways to encourage people to move away from Microsoft products. If you "support" family and friends, recommend Firefox if they ask you about security. Encourage someone to try out a live CD of Ubuntu. If you know someone who is thinking about buying a new computer who is considering a Mac, provide arguments in favor and offer support.
I've moved every computer I own (five) off Windows. My wife and I both have Mac laptops (good riddance to that Dell crap), our HTPC is a mini, our server and the PC in our garage are running Ubuntu. When my sister-in-law wanted a Mac, I encouraged her husband to get her one, and offered to her with support (he's a Windows guy). When my dad asked about internet security problems, I pointed him to Firefox and gently suggested that IE/Windows isn't the best choice.
I'm not suggesting (as some here do) that you should be ramming Open Source or a non-Windows OS down someone's throat. I wouldn't ever advocate being pushy about it, since you catch more flies with honey... but when it comes up (and for those of us who are "support" for family and friends, that's pretty often) it never hurts to gently, subtly point out alternatives to MS. If every geek who villifies MS on slashdot does their small bit, we can eventually make a difference.
Just my $.02
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You have governments interested and 'market subsidies'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Corrupt_Pract ices_Act
Domestic spying is now "Benign Information Gathering"
For corrupt practices. Or at least, ban them from this vote in particular.
"In a letter from Microsoft, our business partners were informed that they were "expected" to participate in the SIS meeting and vote yes...
This was a mistake and the letter was sent by a certain chair-throwing employee on his own initiative "
here's a translation of the full article, to the best of my anonymous coward capacities. English is not my native language (but Swedish is).
------------
Microsoft admits voting coup at SIS
Microsoft admits that the company is behind the voting coup at SIS where the document format OOXML became proposed as a new standard.
- Mistakes have been committed on our part, says Klas Hammar, Microsoft.
The majority of the 23 companies that showed up at the institute of standards SIS at the last minute to vote yes on making Microsoft's document format OOXML an ISO standard did so at the request of Microsoft.
- We have continuously informed our partners about the SIS process. What is happening, what the timeline looks like and that Microsoft thinks it is good if OOXML becomes a standard, says Klas Hammar, business unit director at Microsoft.
- In a letter from Microsoft partners have been told that they were "expected" to participate in the ISI meeting and vote yes. As compensation they would receive "market assistance" and "additional support in the form of Microsoft resources".
Is this ethically defensible?
- This was a mistake and the letter was sent out by a single employee completely on his own initiative without any sanction whatsoever from Microsoft. He also quickly realized his mistake and tried to recall the letter, says Klas Hammar.
- If the person promises "market assistance" and other things he must supposedly have authority for such a promise. Was he a director of some kind and therefore in the position to take such a decision by himself?
- He was not a director and Microsoft has not sanctioned any such promises, says Klas Hammar.
- Have you made any more mistakes in this issue?
- Time will have to tell, says Klas Hammar.
- Do you understand the critique about "voting coup"?
- I can understand the critique about voting ways in a coup-like way. But I maintain that those who voted were well informed in the question and have their own interests in making OOXML an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
- Is it really ethic to act as you have and gather "voting cattle" to SIS?
- It has been a process where both those who have been for and against OOXML have engaged themselves very hard and mobilized their respective partners. And according to SIS there has been tactics from all sides, says Klas Hammar.
Microsoft should have an interest in standardization work being conducted in a good and credible way. Do you consider the current SIS rules for participation in a work group to be unfortunate?
- I am not knowledgeable enough in standardization to be able to comment on how a standardization work should be done, says Klas Hammar.
- Has this hurt Microsoft?
- Time will have to tell. But almost all customers we have spoken to think it is good if OOXML becomes an ISO standard, says Klas Hammar.
Have I told you lately how much I love you?
Eivind.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
(See? Who's supposed to pay that? That means at least TWO employees... and counting.) The reports indicated that Microsoft didn't cut a check for entry fees. Instead it promised resources and future concessions to compensate for each company cutting a check. That is something One individual could do in a Corporation the size of Microsoft.
Now that we have that out of the way.... Of course it was a supported corporate move. What's more, it's part of a global strategy, the same thing was/is occurring in other markets, so they actually have a rogue salesman IN EACH MARKET
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
Standard Norge
for the attention of JCT-1 SC34 committee
Declaration in support of ISO acceptance of Open XML
I have been made aware that Norway is going to vote on the ECMA-standard Open XML some time in 2007, and that the Norwegian position in the matter will be decided in the Norwegian ISO committee (JCT-1 SC34) in Standard Norge. In this connection we feel that it is important that Standard Norge has knowledge of the position to this standard in the undersigned's activity.
By signing this declaration we want to point out the following to Standard Norge:
an ISO standardization of Open XML has large positive spin-off effects for IT industry in Norway, including our activity, our clients and business partners. Standardization will also have a large effect on future document standards in Norway.We base this assertion on the following considerations:
A standardization of Open XML will insure backward compatibility with billions of existing documents — other existing formats do not satisfy this criterion. Several coexisting standards are not unusual. For example, in imaging there are the formats JPEG, GIF, PNG and TIFF. These exist side by side and serve different and overlapping purposes to the advantage of users. OpenXML does not rule out the use of other standards such as RTX, TXT, ODF, PDF etc. ISO standardization will on the other hand benefit interoperability among these standards. By making Open XML an internationally approved standard, it is ensured that the standard can communicate with other standards.Therefore we wish, hereby, to express our full support for Open XML as an ISO standard.
According to the press release, the reason for the decision was a technicality (that information suggested that one of the members had voted twice).
- Well, be that as it may, say I, but perhaps the uproar against the decision both in Sweden and internationally had something to do with. In any case, it sounds like a very fortunate technicality. ;)
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
That's just plain wrong. MPEG is an ISO working group, and their standards are shock-full of patented technologies.
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
I received emails telling me how to vote (I quote and translate) "... to vote do click on the link below and write on the body: YES and your information ..." I think about how many companies affiliated to the CANIETI (the Mexican chamber for technology, telecommunications, etc.) followed the directions without even thinking about what they where doing.
Today Microsoft reach my limit on acceptance about what a company can do or should do to support their business assets. I was worried about receiving calls (from Microsoft) with instructions on how to vote (as YES) or receiving emails with direct links to an email to vote... until I received a new email from them. The email I received included a direct link which opens my email client and puts on the body 'A Favor' which means 'I AGREE' o 'YES'. The recipient for this email was the person in charge of the votes, but this link included CCs to Microsoft emails! ... What!? .... They want to know how many of us voted and what was the vote? Why? Is this illegal? Is this ethic? Why nobody here in Mexico sees this clear illegal and biased tactic to ensure a Mexico vote on YES to the standard?
I don't want to start a flame war over who is right, what standard is better or what the ISO should do with the OOXML. I'm against the techniques and wrongdoing of Microsoft regarding how they are manipulating the vote in Mexico and how nobody seems to see this as I do.
I ear this is happening in almost al the countries; I just don't want believe what I see.
PD. The only option, abstention. Why? because if you vote NO you should put the technical reasons why your vote was no and if microsoft fixes the issues your answer is YES anyway. If you vote with abstention then there is a way to limit the quorum required to approve the Micro$oft initiative.
- Omnia iam fient fieri quae posse negabam."
Note that the translator says "one of the participants of the working group cast more than one vote ."
How about MS sweden making almost 20 votes, most by proxy? that is also covered by that translated line.