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Croal vs. Totilo - Metroid Prime 3 vs. BioShock
Another round of considered commentary from two game journalism luminaries is now completed, and ready for your consumption. Newsweek's Croal and MTV's Totilo go back and forth on the merits of those 'other' console shooters, the ones without Halo in the title. What follows is a fascinating conversation focused on the titles BioShock and Metroid 3, with a wide-range of topics explored. They touch on the importance of a memorable opening, the sense of empowerment required for a good game, and a few words on what may have been lost in the move to 3D in the Metroid series. 'There's a very real argument to be made that something was lost in the transition from 2D to 3D, which is what the Wii's backers have been happy to talk about. While it's worth exploring why the transition ruined things for some gamers, I think little has been discussed about why other gamers didn't lose touch and what kind of tastes may have developed in those of us who stayed hardcore on both sides of the break. What do such gamers have to add to a discussion that so often deals only with the lapsed 2D gamers and the children of the 3D era, to say nothing of the outsider casuals?'"
While mouse sensitivity is still greater than the Wiimote (at least here, but it is a narrowing margin) The Analog stick kicks the shit out of WASD.
Both are stellar games however, if you own a Wii60, buy both.
I haven't played Prime 3, but I know that the first two Primes had the best first-person jumping I've ever personally seen...I never had a problem determining a jump, and rarely did I have to try more than once to make said jump (compared to something like Mario Sunshine, in which some jumps take repeated attempts) You have a massive amount of control over Samus in mid-air in the original games, and that is something that DID in fact translate well into 3D
Living With a Nerd
I enjoy the 2d Metroid games a lot. The 3d games range from horrible (3d on the DS, what the hell?) to "Meh."
In my opinion, the 3d games ruined the franchise. They turned Metroid into Zelda in space.
Zelda itself didn't fare too well in the 3d transition. Playing Minish cap on my Gameboy reminded me just how good things used to be.
Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 minutes...as a long time first person shooter fan (played them since Catacomb 3D) and as a die hard System Shock/SS2 fan, I can say that BioShock does indeed deserve every outstanding review that it gets...the controls are tight, the weapons are well balanced, the plasmids make for some VERY interesting fights, and the graphics are quite pretty.
As a fan of the metroid series since the very first one on NES was released, I have to say my number one reason for liking the Prime series so much is because of this: even if it is 3D, it still FEELS like a Metroid game...The atmosphere, music, weapons, enemies...even the areas that seem like dead ends but have some small little hidey hole or passage to find are intact. Prime is Metroid, through and through.
Living With a Nerd
I like both too. Bioshock is a good experience for me since I haven't enjoyed an FPS since Doom and Doom II... Bioshock takes it back to the roots of what made an FPS a lot of fun for me, the killing in a new and thrilling environment. You don't have to worry about vehicles, you get most things available to you within the first couple of hours of gameplay, and the rest of the game is spent enjoying the level structure, interesting enemy dynamics and situations unique to this game, an interesting ability upgrade system, and multiple ways to play through the same level. Every style of gameplay is accomodated, so everyone can enjoy the game no matter how they play (RE4 does this too I believe). To me I think part of this often overlooked aspect is due to the fact that there is no multiplayer so they didn't have to balance things for player vs player.
Metroid Prime 3 is an excellent style of game (find upgrades, access new areas, defeat unique and interesting boss characters) taken to a new level with interesting architecture to move around in, especially because jumping and manouvering through the levels in various ways is a focus, unlike other FPSes, which makes it interesting to traverse the levels. The enemies are somewhat dumb but there're lots of them and they're very unique, often not even humanoid. Plus, like everyone says, the controls.
They're both very worth playing.
Twinstiq, game news
Guys... why do we need to hate games. Why not just play and love both.
"He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing." --Paul Atreides, Dune
Indeed, a memorable opening is important.
Unfortunately, what was most memorable to me about the opening of BioShock was that, as soon as you gain control of the player, the water splashing up in your face as you swim in the sea leaves drips on the screen, as if it were hitting the glass lens of a camera. There's my sense of immersion destroyed in the first few seconds!
In fact, "Something splashing on the lens, such as water or mud" is listed on Wikipedia's page on breaking the fourth wall as a "technical limitation" that can remind the viewer that what they are seeing is [a film, and] not real life!
Otherwise, the opening was quite good :)
Based on you saying this, I can only assume you haven't played either game for more than 5 minutes...
Pfft, as if you could play Metroid for any length of time and call the motion controls "tacked on". They're integral, and they're better than anything any previous console controller could produce.
5 minutes is how long it took before I swore off ever playing an FPS with dual analog ever again. I bet Bioshock for the PC is fun, but damned if I want to play the Xbox version.
The enemies of Democracy are
I agree... as a fan of Super Metroid (and used to speed run is regularly), I was VERY skeptical of Prime. While it is NOT the same, the feel is certainly Metroid and was loads of fun to play. Also, kudos to Retro for not giving in to excessive Samus eye-candy at the very end (of the first game anyways), it was totally tasteful and believeable and just right.
In the Prime games the character looks down for a half second when quickly nearing ledges and jumping.
I have all my old consoles still, and I play them about 25% of the time I'd say, but only a select few games that I just absolutely love playing, like Megaman 2, Metroid, LoZ, Lolo, and a couple others. There's something so attractive and moving about the simplicity of them visually, combined with the superb level design that just touches me in an extremely meaningful way. The music is also something that I love, it's so pure, no overtones and no human elements to make it imperfect, simple sounds juxtaposed against extremely complex musical arrangements; I actually ripped all my favorite NES music into .wav and listen to it in my car on a regular basis (Maniac Mansion gets me pumped when I'm driving). So the original 2D has this dichotomy of simplicity and complexity that makes it extremely unique and highly enjoyable, but the 3D games like Metroid Prime and Ocarina of Time just have so much depth to both the gameplay and the visuals that they just work for me. Obviously it's not the same type of enjoyment as the old ones, but that's why I keep them around. The 3D ones, I feel, have the same attention to detail and reflect just as much effort as the 2Ds, the only difference is that the incredible effort put into them can be directed into more areas of design and with greater depth than before. It's like eating a meal from the best chef in the world made from only 6 ingredients as opposed to a meal made by the best chef in the world with 20 ingredients; they'll both be the best meals you've ever had, but of course they'll be different.
I never played either System Shock game, but I'm currently on my second time through BioShock.
;)
I like it a lot. The atmosphere, the story itself, it all just sort of rolls together in a really fun game. I'm not an FPS fan, and BioShock doesn't come off as a typical FPS.
What other high quality games are you talking about?
Lair, Heavenly Sword?
While an analog stick will NEVER be a replacement for a keyboard/mouse combo, all it takes is a little bit of use...after playing through only a couple of FPS with a controller, I found that I got used to it to the point where I feel comfortable picking up a controller and just playing. Granted, as I said, there really is no replacement for a keyboard and mouse, but it doesn't take long to get used to using the controller.
In some ways, I prefer the controller for games like Rainbow Six: Vegas and Bioshock...even with as well as I type and with how long I have played games on the PC, I sitll find it more conveinent to have all the controls right at my fingertips...I don't have to worry about having my hand in the wrong position and hitting a key I don't mean to hit. Bioshock's 360 controls are very well laid out, and it takes only a couple minutes for the scheme to feel entirely natural.
Blasphemy, some might say...but it's simply a different type of Micro...it's just a different skillset that is required. Not to mention if you play FPS on a console, you will find (or at least I did) that my keyboard/mouse accuracy actually increased since I got used to something that wasn't quite as accurate.
Living With a Nerd
What I liked most about Bioshock was how it took those many ideas from all the stellar titles in the action genre: the implant system from Deus Ex (plasmid system), the Gravity Gun from HL2 (Telekinesis plasmid), sneaking and hacking from various "Thief" descendants, and, my personal favourite, the camera from Beyond Good and Evil, complete with the exact same piano notes played when taking a good picture. Despite those many games that served as inspiration, all those elements combine seamlessly and are held together by a narration style that never distracts from or interrupts the game flow. Outstanding voice actors conveying an interesting background story, nice graphics, only very few, minor bugs (that I have experienced, anyway), moral choices that actually matter and a very good balance of suspense and open action. I could go on. It's not a revolutionary game as the usual hype wants it to be, but evolutionary it's darn close to being the perfect shooter of our time.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
In all fairness, herpes is more popular than the PS3, and the Ford Pinto has a lower failure rate than the 360.
A Bioshock review.
You haven't read the vs. discussion then. It's suprisingly deep discussion of game design, and both make interesting arguments.
So, what you are saying is that I don't belong on a mac because I'm not an elitist prick? Gotcha.
Living With a Nerd
when two 'hardcore' gamers get into the same room. Mario, Metroid, and Zelda are different games in 3D. It is unfair to judge a 3D game by the merits of the mechanics of a 2D predecessor. The fact that all three franchises have become critical and financial successes after the switch to 3D suggests that for any great thing that was lost, other things were added.
Too many gaming enthusiasts are ridiculously conservative when it comes to things they love. I can't tell you how many threads I have read angry at changes in X or Y franchises that infuriate the enthusiasts but make the games more enjoyable for others. Get over it, things change. If you enjoy Super Metroid more than Metroid Prime, shut the fuck up and play Super Metroid. Nothing is stopping you. I wished Twilight Princess was more like the Wind Waker, so I played the Wind Waker again. Maybe Wind Waker 2 would have been too much like the first if they had made it.
I, for one, like to be surprised. If there is no change, I get bored. Sure, this means I open myself to surprises I don't like, but it is better than getting the same thing over and over. I wish some would hire video game journalists that feel the same as I do, so I could start to trust reviews.
This argument about Metroid where one person says 3D isn't good because of what it has lost and the other says it is good because it hasn't lost certain things is moronic. What about what it has gained? Why did I, owner of Metroid in 1987, never complete a Metroid game until Metroid Prime? They don't care or they are unable to understand.
He didn't say it kicked the shit out of a mouse (which would be silly, yes), he said WASD - the other side of the equation. I'd certainly agree.
Have these two "game journalism luminaries" played anything beyond a few console hits? I had to stop reading midway through the third article because they couldn't stop talking about Metal Gear Solid.
These articles seriously deserve some commentary from the designers to make them complete. I'd love to hear Ken Levine's response, although he'd probably rather see gamers work these things out on their own.
You know, someone has to say it: The Prime 3 controls are not perfect. They're somewhere between okay and not any better that the GC controls. Locking on for circle strafing is great, but it also re-centers the screen on the object of interest, without your cursor being re-aimed. So in a fast battle, you point at the man badguy, lock on to dodge and fight more effectively, but your aim is way off. There's a setting to fix this so that when you lock on, you're also aiming at the opponent. It's not very good at motion prediction though.
More importantly, the lack of turbo fire on the wiimote kills your thumb in ways NESmaniacs never imagined.
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You realize, of course, that your "way off" aim is because you're aiming somewhere else, right? Don't blame the controls for the fact that you wanted to play the game on Pussy and have it do all the killing for you.
Apologies for being harsh - my serious comment is as such - you already knew you could turn that off. Did you think that having the game actually do all your aiming for you would make it more fun? Also, you can switch the firing control to the trigger (and I don't get why that wasn't default) which makes it a hell of a lot nicer. I've fired something like 100,000 shots across two games in the last week and I'm not having any trigger finger issues.
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Granted, as I said, there really is no replacement for a keyboard and mouse, but it doesn't take long to get used to using the controller.
:P
It's not a matter of "used to"; I've logged many many hours of console FPS play. Yet it has always been and will always be an inferior input scheme compared to keyboard and mouse. I simply accepted this as the cost of playing an FPS on a console.
Now that I've played Metroid Prime 3, I no longer consider it acceptable. Now even on a console I can have fast, accurate aiming. If only you could turn as quickly as with a mouse, the wiimote would be the perfect input device for FPS. As is, it's only so awesome that I never want to touch dual analog FPS controls again. My Time Splitters 2 GC disk will miss me.
I don't have to worry about having my hand in the wrong position and hitting a key I don't mean to hit.
Yes, the keyboard is in many ways the weaker half of the mouse/keyboard pair. It does allow you to fit all the necessary functions without resorting to things like the L3/R3 buttons on the Sony controller, but has the problem of having roughly 80 unnecessary keys.
This is one of the beauties of the wii, by the way. The analog stick is a great method for moving your character, since you really only need two speeds anyway (full run, and slow cautious), you never need to stop on a particular pixel, and your character is rarely supposed to be so fast that they can run back and forth across a room in a second. Whereas aiming is something where you're inherently supposed to be able to whip the barrel of your gun around to shoot people on opposite ends of a room, since you're not really moving yourself you're just moving the angle of the gun. Analog sticks turn this into basically the same thing as moving your character. Analog thumbsticks suck for aiming, even if you're as familiar with them as it is possible to be. So the wii gives you the best of both: The nunchuck has the analog stick for moving your character, and the wiimote gives you fast and precise aiming that no thumbstick can.
The enemies of Democracy are
I've heard this complaint a lot. Now, with a flat screen, you don't have the advantage of stereoscopic vision and you have to instead rely (mostly) on relative motion of objects on the screen. This naturally means that level design is important to implementing a successful first-person jumping experience: the jumps need a lead-up to gauge parallax, rather than requiring jumps in close quarters.
But beyond that... do you need to look down at your feet when you walk in real life?
I own a Mac. I also own a PC. I don't see the point of elitism over either one. It's just an OS choice, you don't need to be rude about it either way. That being said, you've reinforced the stereotype of Mac users being complete and total fuckrods. Nice going, asshat.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Is Bioshock a continuation/spinoff of the System Shock series?!
If so, I may have to pick it up and go to my brother's to hog his 360 for awhile...
The Wii remote will not do good on competitive FPS's though. Try playing counterstrike with a wii remote vs a pc player. You will get pwned all day long. You might want to think about your statement with analog vs WASD...
I think this comes from the fact that most 3D platformers are 3rd person, which, while being great in theory, also have some severe handicaps. It's much harder judging exact depth in 3rd person than in 1st person. The 3rd person games tend to vissually resemble their 2d counterparts more, which gives them a bit more nostolgic feel, but they become clumsy in their control. Mario 64 wasn't nearly as precise to control as Mario 3/Mario World. You may not know exactly where your feet are when in first person, but you learn to account for the added distance very quickly, and can make very precise movements. Also, not having to worry about a camera is an added bonus.
3rd person is great for adventure games that don't require precision in placement. It's perfect for RPGs, in which all action elements are computer controlled, and Zelda does incredibly well, since close combat is much better represented. Pure platformers, though, are attrocious in 3rd person. Metroid Prime would have been aweful in 3rd person, and Mario 64 and Sonic Adventure really lost alot of ground in their series due to lack of control.
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
Well, to be honest, for an adventure game that's not a pure trigger-happy FPS, the control scheme for Prime 1 was close to perfect. Granted, in a mulitplayer combat situation, most FPS fans would find it extremely limiting, but for what's required of the Metroid series, the GC controls are practically superior to a keyboard/mouse control scheme.
Now, however I tend to feel about Corruption trying to become more like a traditional FPS (which bothers me), I'll say that the control scheme was VERY GOOD in that regard. The lock-on may have actually been completely unneccssary. I think that maybe circle-strafe without lock-on would have been the best method, but besides that it was close to perfect. The ONLY gripe I had is that the crosshairs needed to be much more visible. Unlike traditional FPSs, with the Wiimote, the crosshair is not always in the center of the screen, which requires them to be a bit more blatently visible than in other games. First and foremoet, they should never be obsucrred by bloom-lighighting or gunblast effects (which they were in Corruption), they should always sit on a layer above everything else, they should be completely opaque, and possibly even have an outline of another color for added visibility. I can't count the number of times I went "okay, where are my crosshairs again?"
But that aside: Corruption did have the best control scheme of any FPS on a console. I really can't argue against that. Sure, it wasn't "perfect" but it was pretty damn close when compared to Halo, Bioshock, or other duel-analog control setups.
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
I agree completely. And stereoptics is actually pretty weak. The eye judges distance MOSTLY from other kinds of visual cues besides stereoptics. I think people will find that if they played a game with a stereoptic screen, it wouldn't actually be that much better, if really at all.
I honestly think that people complain about first-person platformers, NOT because of precision movement, but because they don't as closely resemble their 2D counterparts. If people are used to looking at, and identifying their characters in 2D, they often ask for the same in a 3D environment. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder and more subjective arguement to make, so most simply default on the "3rd person is more precise" arguement, which I believe to be completely untrue. Play Mario 64, then play Metroid Prime 1, and I dare you to tell me that Mario 64 is more precise. There's really no comparion, first person wins hands down on that one. We're more used to first-person anyway, since we control ourselves from a first-person standpoint. As you said, you don't need to look at your feet in real life when you walk, you've just learned to take into account the added distance your feet will be from the bottom of your vision. I find myself doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING in Prime 1, and my jumps are within inches of where I want them to be, and completely perfect in side/side dimensions. In Mario 64, I may be over a foot off in both X and Y dimensions. As I said, there's no comparion.
Now, Mario 64 would suck in first person. Not because of control, but because of concept. The cartoony presence of Mario is essential to the game's look and feel. A game without Mario without his hat and big nose on the screen would simply not feel like a Mario game, because his character essentially makes the series what it is. Basically, the Mario series is fucked either way in 3D, which is why its 3D games will NEVER reach the level of Mario 3 or Mario World.
Metroid is different, however. Samus's presence, while it became an expected tradition in the series, is not central to the game's look & feel. In fact, her presence is actually a distraction to the environment, which is really the core of what makes the series what it is. When in 2D, Samus's sprite could be relatively small on the screen, but 3D characters must, by nature, take up a lot more room on the screen. Having a big orange/yellow robot suit taking up half the height of the screen, at all times, would be a huge detriment in the player's immersion in the surrounding environment. Add to that the fact that shooting is much more natural in first person, not needing camera control, and more precision in jumping, and the choice to go first-person in the Metroid series becomes unbelievably clear.
Funny thing is, Samus was not really much of a character prior to Prime/Fusion. For all the complaints that "first person viewpoint takes away from character portrayal", there really wasn't much of any character development prior to the 3rd person games. Probably the best in the series, for that, was Zero Mission, but that was months later, and Prime 1 isn't that far off in it's character portrayal. Samus's character really isn't important to her series, I hate to say... her story is intriguing, but her personality is completely non-existant. So any complaints that first-person viewpoint takes away from character portrayal is kind of moot, anyway.
Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
Ive yet to play either but both are games that I am looking foward too. Definatally when I get my new video card, BioShock is top of the list. Its one of those games that seem to stand out in a world flooded with the same stuff. It looks sweet, looks like it handles sweet and if it has stratergy other than running and gunning, it's a good thing. I quite liked the previous Metroid Prime games. The first and second Primes are still to this day my fave 1st person expereince of this decade, I felt it stayed true to the series. Throw in a control scheme that I feel was made for FPS's I cant wait for Corrupion (In australia we have to wait till November). Hunters is fun online but no Counter Strike and I am very disapointed about lack of online multiplayer as Hunters showed it could be done. I personally have not been impressed with what Ive seen with Halo 3, I could be supprised with the final version but I am not expecting much. So far it looks like BioShock and Corruption are worthy contenders for GOTY while Halo 3 will make it on fame alone. Nobody forget we got plenty of AAA titles on the way: Assassins Creed, MSG4, CoD4, Crysis, DMC4, RE5, SSBB
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I think Mario Sunshine really nailed the third-person platforming aspects with the "floating" water cannon. This helped you manage platforms, and it also gave you some reference of where you are via the streams of water going down from your pipes.
First of all, I too was disappointed with the 3D DS Metroid. The DS is perfect for Metroidvania games, as the two Castlevanias have shown. Now Hunters is not a bad game; in fact, it is one of the best games on the DS, and the best portable FPS you can have, even winning against a whole bunch of dual-analog FPS with its control scheme. Still, I agre with you: I would have preferred a 2D Metroid on the DS.
However, the Metroid Prime games on the Cube are clearly amongst the best games ever made. In fact, the first Metroid Prime is the third-best ranked game ever on gamerankings, and it deserves that place. It is an awesome, great game; probably one of the best 2D->3D switches ever. No other franchise did it that well; few can even compare (maybe Super Mario, Zelda and Prince of Persia - although the 2D Marios and Zeldas are still way better than the 3D versions).
Yes, it's not a 2D Metroid. Yes, we all want a new 2D Metroid. No, that doesn't mean it's a bad game.
It's in large parts the same team and basically a kind of spiritual sequel, just without the rights to the actual name.
I think Samus should hook up with Link. They'd have so much to talk about.