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SAS CEO Blasts Old-School Schooling

theodp writes "What does SAS CEO Dr. Jim Goodnight have in common with 47% of high school dropouts? A belief that school is boring. Marking the 50th anniversary of Sputnik with a call for renewed emphasis on science and technology in America's schools, Goodnight finds today's kids ill-served by old-school schooling: 'Today's generation of kids is the most technology savvy group that this country has ever produced. They are born with an iPod in one hand and a cell phone in another. They're text messaging, e-mailing, instant messaging. They're on MySpace, YouTube & Google. They've got Nintendo Wiis, Game Boys, PlayStations. Their world is one of total interactivity. They're in constant communication with each other, but when they go to school, they are told to leave those 'toys' at home. They're not to be used in school. Instead, the system continues teaching as if these kids belong to the last century, by standing in front of a blackboard.'"

96 of 594 comments (clear)

  1. Tired of this goddamn label by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Just because some kid has an ipod and a cellphone doesn't mean they're a genius when it comes to technology. An ipod is easy enough for an idiot to use, it's not a badge of honor to be able to use one.

    1. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by JonathanR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Exactly. They can figure out the interface, but most really don't understand the underlying technology.

    2. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Gideon+Fubar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's peripheral to the argument.. and anyway, it probably seems like that to most teachers... perhaps an analogy like 'what if you were taught addition on an abacus when there was a perfectly good blackboard available?' would help in that respect.

      I can't speak for everyone, but i think i personally learn much better when i'm enjoying myself... now all we need are a couple of fun educational games.

      --
      http://www.xkcd.com/354/
    3. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 4, Insightful

      An ipod is easy enough for an idiot to use, it's not a badge of honor to be able to use one.

      Right. Apple spent millions of dollars with very smart people so that idiots could use an iPod. iPod's dominate the MP3 market because of their ease-of-use. And most people's text messaging is a detriment to both learning proper English and being tech-savy. A tech-savy person can type well enough that typing out the full words is easier than learning a new acronym, for example.

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    4. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by scoot80 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That is because most really don't care about how it works as long as it does what it is supposed to do.

    5. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Funny

      And most people's text messaging is a detriment to both learning proper English and being tech-savy. stfu grmmr nuub
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    6. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well considering how much I enjoyed Sex-Ed I'm sort of surprised that I never passed Physical Education...

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    7. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by innerweb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Right on!

      Please forgive any grammar, spelling or other snafus, it is very late, I am very tired, but I think this needs to be said.

      This is one of my BIG soap boxes. My parents were teachers (now retired after 30+ years teaching each), I have taught, my brother has taught, we have all coached, taught extra-curricular classes and my parents have received numerous awards for what they have achieved with their students. My father at one time had over half of the high school he taught at (2500+ students) taking physics. My mother, father and I worked with Young Astronauts, Destination Imagination, Flight Club, Math League, Lego Robotics (as an extra-curricular), Athletics, 3rd through 6th grade science and math (my father helped with this while he taught the high school level), and much more. Amongst us, we have Physics Teacher of the year for our state (my father), Teacher of the year multiple times, parental awards for excellence in education (these come from the parents of the students, not other teachers) and plenty of politicians and business leaders who are sick and tired of us and our names. Those are some of our credentials.

      Now, the real problem. Parents and our societal emphasis on lack of responsibility and over-emphasis on instant gratification. Nothing about classroom technologies, nothing about administrators, and nothing politicians in general. Though some of them are definite proof of some serious failings in their education from their parents - morality.

      Students do not *normally* come to school to learn anymore. They expect to be entertained. They expect to be catered to. They expect to do nothing other than what they want. And honestly, how many kids know what they need? Some, but most do not. There is a pattern to all of this. Not absolute, nor 100% accurate, but routinely, you see this pattern over and over. If the parents of the children emphasize discipline, responsibility, morality, effort and honesty (at least self-honesty), the kids almost always outperform the other children they go to school with. The other kids, well lets just say they do not get as much out of school, and normally (but not always) out of life.

      See, the problem starts at home for the vast majority of children. Parents do not spend enough quality time (working, playing, reading, building, cleaning, ...) together. Not an hour or two a day, but 3 to 5 hours per day. That may sound like a lot, but, they had this child. Children learn the most by observing. Not listening to your instructions, but observing you carry out (or not) your promises, your rules, your ethics, your respect, your honesty, your ...

      Then, these kids go to school. Now, they have either learned to respect adults, work, responsibility and such at home, or they have not. Guess which kids do better at first (and normally for the rest of the time as well). Are they doomed then? No. They can learn how to live right. I have seen it. Sometimes by a divorce where one parent suddenly is seen by the child for what that parent really is and the other parent is finally able to provide that good home. Sometimes, the parents go away, through jail or Child Protective Services (I know they are not perfect either) and they wind up in a good home. They learn good habits, just takes them longer and they have to relearn many things. They are still disadvantaged in some ways, but can keep up with and compete in the real world.

      Believe it or not, these are the things that most impact a child's education. And the education of the children around that child. Why? Because that child's behavior in class will either impede or propel the education of the children around them. Put one bratty attitude in a classroom, and you can loose a half day of education everyday, and never have a good quality day of education. One Child can ruin the class. You may say the teacher can do something about it. No, they can not in most cases. We the people, as a whole, either through

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    8. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by hitmark · · Score: 4, Funny

      ok, i just scared myself silly. i fully understand the message in that line of text!

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    9. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by hitmark · · Score: 2, Interesting

      i would say that text messages often show that people have better understanding of the language then first impressions can lead to.

      hell, didnt some tests show that as long as the first and last letter of the word was in the right place, the other letters could be all over the place and not affect readability?

      often what text message "shorthand" does is produce the sound of the word, not the letters of the word. or maybe enough of the sound so that it can be distinguished from a different, but similar word.

      also, some languages (with english being one of them) have a lot of silent letters. letters that show up when one is to write the word, but isnt vocalized in speech.

      then there is the difference between person to person communication and formal writings. much internet shorthand shows up where time, space and similar is limited. irc and now fps acronyms are one example where often a long sentence is turned into 3-4 letters so that one does not waste time typing them out. sms, where one is often priced by the message, and each message is some 160 characters long (including whitespace), the need (for a kid using a pay as you go or other limited plan) to write very compact messages shows up. and if one can get away with hitting those number keys less times, that may aid as well.

      yes, there is a sad thing when they bring this kind of writing over into the world of formal letters, email and CV's. but i see nothing bad in the use of these techniques, within their proper context. the languages we know today have all evolved from more elaborate ones, that have been cut down over the ages for ease of use in the day to day world. if thats a good or bad thing have probably been debated as long as speech have been around, and kids have used slang in front of their parents.

      and that may be another thing to think about. language is culture. its the basis for songs and stories. and via those culture and religion (often two sides of the same coin) is spread. the kids using their way of writing creates their own sub-culture. something kids of all generations have done, in writing, music and similar. there is no single generation x, thats always the newest one, the one whos culture the adults of the world find at the same time similar and alien to their own.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    10. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Yvanhoe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I thinkg M. Goodnight has a point : kids are put into a century-old universe when put into school. It really is frustrating. I finished my high school 10 years ago, but already I didn't understand why I couldn't have a "find" function in a course, why we didn't use any of the software tools so convenient for drawing geometrical figures, why, again, the teaching world was so reluctant to see computers and calculator as tools and only saw them as toys. I knew that I wanted to walk the engineering path and I saw school as a largely obsolete universe.

      Students do not *normally* come to school to learn anymore. They expect to be entertained. They expect to be catered to. Kids never did. Kids went to school because it is mandatory. Expecting them to be genuinely interested in school because you were isn't going to work. Kids who happen to have a good science education will usually talk to you about this particular teacher who managed to make them love math, or biology, or physics. Interest can be given by parents, but teachers also have that role. And school environment definitely has a role, that is negative as of now. If you think about it, where do you still find chalkboards outside school ? We are in the powerpoint era. It may have its drawbacks, but chalkboard is so limited and time-consuming to use...
      --
      The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
    11. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Interesting
      There are so many outright errors and so much wishful thinking in this post I don't even know where to begin. Let's just pick two:
       
       

      See, the problem starts at home for the vast majority of children. Parents do not spend enough quality time (working, playing, reading, building, cleaning, ...) together. Not an hour or two a day, but 3 to 5 hours per day.

       
      So, explain to me how in years past children did so well in school? (I.E. when 'quality time' was unheard of and parents weren't expected to sacrifice themselves utterly for their children.)
       
       

      You get the parents back into the school.

       
      You can't get someone 'back to' where they never were in the first place.
       
      Etc... Etc...
       
      I don't care what your credentials are - you haven't a clue what you are talking about.
    12. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Desipis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      (I.E. when 'quality time' was unheard of and parents weren't expected to sacrifice themselves utterly for their children.)


      You do realise it used to be 'normal' to only have one working parent (usually father) with the mother at home doing parenting things such as disciplining children for misbehaviour, showing them how to be productive (chores) and educating by reading them stories right? Or were you born yesterday?

      You can't get someone 'back to' where they never were in the first place.


      During my early school years, my parents and others quite often volunteered to help at school by taking kids our of class and reading to them or helping them with basic arithmetic. It used to be common, but these days mothers are earning that second income.
    13. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by edittard · · Score: 2

      Well said. You can teach a monkey to press buttons but it doesn't mean it understands the machine. It's like saying that because the first iron age kids could wave a sword around they were all metallurgists.

      --
      At the bottom of the /. main page it says 'Yesterday's News'. Well they got that right.
    14. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realise it used to be 'normal' to only have one working parent (usually father) with the mother at home doing parenting things such as disciplining children for misbehaviour, showing them how to be productive (chores) and educating by reading them stories right? Or were you born yesterday?

      You do realize that what you state is largely a myth, not a fact? back in the day when only one working parent was common (actually a briefer era than many realize), Mom was busy with cooking and cleaning and other chores. I wasn't born yesterday, but I did spend part of yesterday (and many part of many days before it) reading actual books and research on what life used to be like (a sideline into my research on cooking in America) - rather than parroting myths.
       
       

      During my early school years, my parents and others quite often volunteered to help at school by taking kids our of class and reading to them or helping them with basic arithmetic. It used to be common, but these days mothers are earning that second income.

      It many have been common at your school - but it wasn't any thing resembling common anywhere at anytime. Mother, or fathers, with that much spare time were very much the exception.
    15. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the old days, only one parent worked, meaning LOT'S of quality time.

      Back in the day when only one parent worked out of the home, the other parent generally spent an equal amount of hours working in the home. (Cooking, cleaning, etc...) They had no, or very little, time for 'quality time'.
       
       

      n the old days, parents(at least the mother) were expected to TOTALLY sacrifice themselves.

      At no time prior to the present was this ever true. Period.
       
      If the wife was expected to sacrifice herself for anyone - it was the husband. Look at old cookbooks for example, they aren't filled with foods for children and childrens parties. They are filled with food for entertaining and impressing - with the distinct subtext that it was social and/or business superiors who were the targets, with friends a distant second target. It was all about status, and children were supposed to be seen and not heard.
       
       

      Either, you are extremely young, or you have grown up in some former soviet state or similar.

      You missed an option. 'Or you are someone who has actually read on and studied the issue and is aware of the truth and prefers it spouting myths'.
    16. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by umghhh · · Score: 2, Funny

      what morals?
      what ethics?
      why do you bother us with this shit?

    17. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Desipis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It was all about status, and children were supposed to be seen and not heard.
      So wait, children were taught discipline and respect?
    18. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's hard to make the job of teacher look like a good one. Other than upping the pay scale, there isn't much you can do. And even then, the job won't be better, it will just pay more. There are many, not all, but many kids who are messed up before any teacher sees them, before the step foot in their first kindergarten class. My brother thought he wanted to become a teacher, until he took a class in high school that let him be a teacher's assistant instead of going to a regular class. That was the first exposure he had to a classroom outside the "advanced" tier. He said that these kids are impossible to teach, and that they don't want to be there. I believe this to be true for a lot of students. Throwing more computers at the problem won't solve anything. These students won't be interested unless they are allowed to talk to friends the whole time, about hair, hockey, cars, movies, and just about anything that isn't related to actual learning. Granted there are some kids who really want to learn, but lets face it, there are a lot of kids who don't want to be there, and no good teacher, or amount of technology can change that.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    19. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by zig007 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Back in the day when only one parent worked out of the home, the other parent generally spent an equal amount of hours working in the home. (Cooking, cleaning, etc...) They had no, or very little, time for 'quality time'. Except that the grandparent meant that just being around the parent, working or not, IS quality time.

      If the wife was expected to sacrifice herself for anyone - it was the husband Yep, the husband and his wishes. But also by the society as a whole to care for the children.
      Obviously, the husband expected his wife to care for them.
      The business part only applies to a quite small, and upper class, part of the society.

      You missed an option. 'Or you are someone who has actually read on and studied the issue and is aware of the truth and prefers it spouting myths'. Maybe you've read and studied, but I'd still say that you have missed the point.

      For example:
      My mother, born in the early thirties, was at home during my upbringing. I KNOW that she sacrificed her own career to be home with me and cater hes husband.
      Why? Because when she was brought up, that was what she was taught to do. I know for a fact most of her friends did the same.

      So I have actually experienced this. I promise you that I haven't read that in a cookbook. And it is not a "myth".
      --
      Baboons are cute.
    20. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by BKX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I seriously doubt you studied either, ever. You probably studied grammars (whereas I learned grammar a couple of times in English and then actually studied it only in Latin class.).

    21. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by innerweb · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I do think there is a need for standardised curriculum and testing across at least some subjects.

      I think there is a need for standardized requirements in certain subjects, as in you need to learn to use English/Math/... in this manner. I think a standardized methodology for teaching it is a huge problem. Children quite simply have different learning styles, challenges and motivations. By using the one way works for all approach, you hit a certain middle half to just over half, if you are lucky. The rest either are bored as they are ahead of the class waiting for them to catch up, or they are behind the class struggling, getting frustrated with even being there. Instead of approaching the teaching of children as assembling widgets on an assembly line, children need to approached as unique project builds for custom orders.

      Testing is a big hairy mess. The problem with testing is it encourages all teachers to teach for the tests. Teaching for the test is does not provide students with a solid learning base. It teaches regurgitation of facts, not interaction with knowledge. Think of learning as being a set skills. Knowledge recital is definitely one skill (test taking covers this). It is an easily measured skill and one which people have been able to easily point to and segregate others based on. Hell, I missed one point on my PSAT and 10 points on my SAT. My IQ was/is (who knows, who cares) over 150. I ought to be a highly successful business/computer/(fill in the blank) genius. I have been told plenty of times by bosses and coworkers, thats great, but no one here understands what you just said. Theres another skill, communications, and nobody has developed a test for that that truly tests the ability to communicate, only to speak and recognize grammar components. The truth is those only measure a small percent of overall intelligence. Their are also social interaction skills, creativity skills and many more. How do you test for those? How do you structure a standardized anything for skills that are inherently about being non-standard?

      Standardized testing is very dangerous. It give you easy false data and a false sense of achievement. You took a test you scored well. That does not mean you are intelligent or that you are at well rounded or anything more than you knew those facts and were able to write something that day that the reviewer liked. Now, if we make testing a small portion of the education, that is okay. The problem is people tend to take the path of least resistance and run with it. With testing, that has proven to be very detrimental to the educational system. The way it works, it is better for a teachers/school admins career to cause the kids to do poorly one year and better the next. It shows improvement in the students in the required time frame. Never mind that you have now started a *lottery* for some kids to do better based on which year in the cycle you are while the other kids get less. This I have gotten from actual teachers and administrators who are trying to figure out how to keep their jobs while teaching students who are preoccupied with the latest fads, drugs and who is having sex with who. All this because the parents are not there in their lives.

      Think back many decades to the one room school house. From the people I know and have talked to, that environment had no testing like we are used to today. They did on the other hand learn at their own pace, interact with the children of other ages in the classroom, usually by helping them (thus showing the other children that it was *good* to be *learned*). I myself attended a Montessori school. I accomplished three years of science, two years of math and over a year of the other subjects. 30 years later I remember more about that education than I do of the standard grade school I went to the previous and following years. It was individualized, with nothing more than interactive unit testing to make sure the knowledge was grasped.

      I have to go to work. I hope I have communicated effectively my experience and observations on testing and standards. Please respond with any feedback.

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    22. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by WhatAmIDoingHere · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The issue, and I have mentioned this many times when people bring up how kids today are so good with technology, is that the kids know Youtube is for videos, MySpace is for.. whatever MySpace does, and that iPods hold music. That's it.

      When I was in 5th grade I was learning how interbutts work. Instead of playing sports I was reading some "for dummies" books and learning the basics. I was designing basic websites for myself and my pets. I was exploring and learning about the technology that was springing up. I wanted to know how my first PC (Only an IBM with Win95, I'm too young for anything much older) I took it apart and figured out how it went together. When I got into High School I took a computer repair class and on the first day I was the first (and only) person who took his computer apart and put it back together in the time allowed. Now I build and troubleshoot computers for friends and family members on the side and make pretty good money doing that on top of my regular job (where I'm not a member of the IS department but I get asked to fix more problems than they do).

      I still talk to my old Computer Repair teacher and he tells me that the new kids taking the class don't want to learn, they just browse the internet and update their MySpaces. They don't want to know how to install Windows or replace hardware. They don't even know what "a linux" is, and why would they? It doesn't help them add tacky background images to their myspace pages. In their defense, back before MySpace we all had a GeoCities account with an animated flaming skull .gif.

      There's a big difference between USING technology and UNDERSTANDING it, and the kids today just don't care.

      --
      Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
    23. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by zevans · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a big difference between USING technology and UNDERSTANDING it, and the kids today just don't care.

      Some would say that's the difference between a member of (technological) society, or a, what's that other word... oh yeah... geek. :-)

      There is also a difference between understanding enough to make most efficient use of the tech, and understanding too much and arsing about with it until it breaks and/or you're well past diminishing returns - and the "too much detail" problem is pretty prevalent in our industry, I have to say!

      --
      "... and more and more now there are all kinds of electronic goodies available" -- Pink Floyd 1972
    24. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by mikael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I heard a story about that too. Some teaching school graduates got their first job in an inner-city school working with hard-to-teach kids. Realizing that the kids were missing out on all the other activities that the suburban schools had, and that having teachers leaving after one term due to the stress, they made an effort to stay and help bring the kids back up to speed with extra tuition and after school classes. The kids grades improve. What happens next? The education board sees the improvement in grades, and transfers a whole load of troubled kids from other schools. The teachers quit from the stress.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    25. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by rcg40 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the old days (pre-1973) when we went to apply for a mortgage, one income qualified us for a 15K house, whereas two incomes would get us that 40K house. The banker said, "the FHA/VA policy is that only one income can qualify, because pretty soon, the missus will be in a family way, and will have to stay home." "But no. We have the pill. Wahh Wahh wahh" So the FHA/VA changed and the banker allowed two incomes and guess what? The 15K house went to 40K and the 40K house went to 95K, and when we couldn't make it on one income, we divorced, and left the house and kids to the wife. The two income mortgage did more to destroy traditional family values and practices such as "parents being parents" than any amount of gay marriage or any other scapegoat. The TV watches your kids when they come home. Kids learn by example more than any other way and the big lesson of the past twenty-five years is "Get more. Gimme more." There is something to be said for that pre-1973 banker's wisdom. Also, that 15K house is still a 15K house, but it's listed price is 265K.

    26. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by phantomlord · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You do realise it used to be 'normal' to only have one working parent (usually father) with the mother at home doing parenting things such as disciplining children for misbehaviour, showing them how to be productive (chores) and educating by reading them stories right? Or were you born yesterday?

      You do realize that what you state is largely a myth, not a fact? back in the day when only one working parent was common (actually a briefer era than many realize), Mom was busy with cooking and cleaning and other chores. I wasn't born yesterday, but I did spend part of yesterday (and many part of many days before it) reading actual books and research on what life used to be like (a sideline into my research on cooking in America) - rather than parroting myths.

      From the time I was born until after I started school, my mom didn't work at all. She cooked everything from scratch at home (we're talking making sauce from tomatoes, not buying a jar of sauce and heating it up and calling that homemade), she was a neat freak (honestly, her constantly picking up after me is why I never got in the habit of doing it myself and while I'm neat at work, I have to force myself to pick up at home) and she still had a ton of time for me. She spent hours reading with me, practicing counting, taught me math up through long division and I could write in cursive before I started school, etc. She took me to go get my library card when I was about 3 so I could learn to answer my own questions rather than rely on someone else just telling me things were a certain way. My parents bought me this little desk with a chalk board and stuff on it and taught me that learning was fun. We weren't loaded, my dad made $3-5/hour (this was 1977-1980), but they made it work and I benefited from it.

      Even after I went to school, they arranged it so my mom would usually be home when I was. Despite working, coming along on field trips with my school, taking me to baseball, etc, I'd still come home to fresh baked cookies and my mom would still make pizza (dough included) from scratch. My sister is 7 years younger than me and while she's as smart as me (though in different areas... I'm more science/math and she's more language/music), she dropped out of school, has a kid of her own that she refuses to spend any time with, etc. I think the main difference is my parents got divorced when my sister was 4 and in the process, it really cut down on quality time with the parents since both were busy doing everything to maintain a separate household (which means needing twice the old income to pay two mortgages, my dad spending time doing the domestic work at his house and my mom spending time doing yard work at her house, etc), both parents undermining the authority of the other and/or disparaging the other to the kids, them trying to buy my sister's affection with gifts, etc.

      I turned out pretty smart but I've got a problem called avoidant personality disorder which really has its roots in that time frame for me. Basically, I'm compelled to avoid confrontation (especially rejection from women) rather than take risks (even minimal ones) because I'm predisposed to thinking things will end in certain failure. I tend to constantly test people for their acceptance before I even let them see the real me and when it comes to taking a risk (talking to a woman, applying for a new job, going back to college, etc), I have a default state of inferiority and I have to work really hard to overcome things people won't even think twice about. It is sometimes bad enough that if I find a waitress attractive, I'll completely clam up, stare straight forward and if I'm feeling particularly uncomfortable, my right hand might start twitching.

      Compare that to my sister... she dropped out of high school with 2 months left to go. Hasn't ever worked for more than 3 months at a time. Uses and abuses every guy she comes across. Got knocked up and refuses to take care of her kid (16 months old), making our mom do it for h

      --
      Don't leave your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't close it so much that you cut off the blood.
    27. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by Fear+the+Clam · · Score: 2, Funny

      When I was in 5th grade I was learning how interbutts work

      And then the social workers came and took daddy away?

    28. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by hondo77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You do realize that what you state is largely a myth, not a fact? back in the day when only one working parent was common (actually a briefer era than many realize), Mom was busy with cooking and cleaning and other chores. I wasn't born yesterday, but I did spend part of yesterday (and many part of many days before it) reading actual books and research on what life used to be like (a sideline into my research on cooking in America) - rather than parroting myths.

      Fortunately I grew up in that mythical time instead of merely reading about it in books. It does not take that long to take care of a house. If a homemaker's time was 100% occupied by chores, there would be no game shows or soap operas (that may sound sexist but think about it before flaming). Part of being a homemaker is being there for the children. Between chores, cooking, and children (and Oprah, in my wife's case), it is definitely a full-time job (one that I wish I had instead of being a rat).

      It many have been common at your school - but it wasn't any thing resembling common anywhere at anytime. Mother, or fathers, with that much spare time were very much the exception.

      It's not a matter of spare time. You make time for things that are important to you. We're fortunate that my wife can stay at home and she does plenty of volunteering at school. Sure, there are tradeoffs (like not having a clean kitchen when I go to cook dinner at night) but life is full of them.

      --
      I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
    29. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by mikael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think it was after one term. But I guess bthe point was that if anyone did have the enthusiasm to raise educational attainment levels, the inertia of the system would just hit them with more work without the corresponding resources thus reducing the system back to equilibrium.
      If this were the private sector, if there was this demand for their services, the extra amount of work would bring in extra revenue that would allow them to expand.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    30. Re:Tired of this goddamn label by protohiro1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is much more complicated than you think. Some students don't want to be there, fine. It isn't most. And a good teacher can engage a large portion of a bad class. But a good teacher has to be a smart, well trained person. And smart, well educated people basically won't want to work at a job that pays half of what they could make in another career. Its not "kids these days" that are the problem. Its "good people don't want to teach"

      --
      Sig removed because it was obnoxious
  2. I happen to disagree. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Standing in front of a blackboard and addressing the students orally is an excellent method of education.

    And interactive, for that matter.

    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    1. Re:I happen to disagree. by michaelmalak · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Standing in front of a blackboard and addressing the students orally is an excellent method of education.
      I agree it's an excellent method of education -- for the teacher.

      The best way to learn something is to try to teach it. Seminar-style classes should start before graduate school.

    2. Re:I happen to disagree. by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 2, Funny

      Standing in front of a blackboard and addressing the students orally is an excellent method of education.
      Actually, technology has made quite a leap forward from when my teachers used to stand in front of a blackboard and address us.


      Today's teachers stand in front of a whiteboard.

      And, given all the teacher-student sex going on, I imaging "addressing the students orally" has taken on a whole new meaning, too.
    3. Re:I happen to disagree. by KefabiMe · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I both disagree and agree.

      This depends completely on the teacher.

      My calculus-based physics teacher was a great example of how to teach a great interactive class by standing in front of a blackboard (or whiteboard in this case) and addressing the students orally. He probably did more to make me interested in Math, Science, and Engineering than anyone else other than my own father (who had a Ph.D. in Mathematics).

      7 years later, after dropping out, working (for Microsoft!?!) for a few years, and re-starting college, I am currently taking calculus-based physics with a teacher who is a great example of how much standing in front of a blackboard and addressing the students orally can suck.

      My only job is a school tutor and my study habits have much improved since 7 years ago, so I'm doing well in school. But I look around and I see many students who struggle because most of teachers are more like the latter example, rather than the former .

    4. Re:I happen to disagree. by tftp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And why would a whiteboard be better than a blackboard? Chalk is harmless, unlike the solvent based pens, and it is far more environmentally friendly.

    5. Re:I happen to disagree. by jlarocco · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Teachers and College Professors should change their lecture styles to incorporate the technology. Rather than writing facts on a blackboard that students can look up instantly on the internet, show students how to use the information and the concepts behind it.

      That's what decent professors/teachers have been doing for decades. I don't really see how technology changes anything there. 30 years ago I could flip through a reference book or go to the library and look up a formula or fact. Yes, Google is a bit more convenient. But surely high school students already know how to use search engines, right? If they can make a ghastly abomination on MySpace, they can use Google.

      Besides that, a great professor giving a lecture using a blackboard is a million times better than watching a crappy professor go through a powerpoint show. The one isn't using technology, but technology isn't going to make up for the other's incompetence.

      If there's an obvious benefit from using technology, then by all means use it; but I don't think it should be used just for the sake of using it.

    6. Re:I happen to disagree. by MMaestro · · Score: 3, Insightful
      And blackboards have been criticized for years about the chalk dust they create if air circulation isn't ample. Whiteboards are a step in the right direction, but projectors that displayed whatever the teacher wrote using a special digital pen (I've seen this kind of technology being prototyped by GE during a business tour, its expensive but easily done) would be even better. Throw in the ability to upload everything the teacher wrote on the "board" to the internet and you'd immediately do away with the "but I didn't get the notes yesterday" excuse.

      I still agree addressing students orally and directly is still one of the best methods of education though.

    7. Re:I happen to disagree. by digitig · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My daughter's teachers sit in front of an active whiteboard, hooked up to a laptop, so that, for example, she can see the effect of changing parameters in an equation graphed immediately. She then puts headphones on in the language lab, then uses Google Docs to do he creative writing (so she can easily finish it off at home). Where is it that teaching isn't using technology?

      --
      Quidnam Latine loqui modo coepi?
    8. Re:I happen to disagree. by afroborg · · Score: 2, Informative

      I am told that many teachers developed chalk dust allergies in the days of blackboards. Whiteboards are also easier to clean.

      However, I remember blackboards from my primary school days, and I don't seem to remember there being any problem with them.

      --
      my sig could kick your sig's arse...
  3. They are toys by EllynGeek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the olden days, would you have let them bring cribbage boards and cards into the classroom? Get a grip. They're fancier toys, but still toys.

    --

    we will end no whine before its time

    1. Re:They are toys by r_jensen11 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You make it sound like cribbage is dead or antiquated for some reason.

  4. The Irony! by vondiggity · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The people who engineered the Sputnik and the other later entries into the "space race" were all probably educated by these so called "old school" methods.

    1. Re:The Irony! by Fizzl · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And I could probably put a satellite in orbit today given Google and enough money

  5. Doesn't translate, either by Potato+Battery · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work with a lot of university students who are extremely conversant with the tech-goodies referenced here. I find that a high level of comfort with finely-tuned consumer devices does not translate at all to things that require some effort, ranging from FTP programs to even similar items, like a DV cam.

    To show them how to use these things, I use a procedure remarkably similar to the one being derided. It generally works.

  6. School IS boring by crashfrog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    No surprise school is boring; the rise of social conservatives have ensured that everything that made any subject interesting have been scrubbed from the curriculum. Can't teach about sex; have to force a religious minority's views that sexual knowledge leads to lunchroom orgies. Can't teach evolution; churches might write angry letters! Can't teach history from any kind of personal viewpoint, and we certainly can't dwell on stories of heroism and conflict; we might offend the other side or give the impression that violence is ok.

    Given how little of a student's time is actually engaged in any learning of any subject, I'm hard-pressed to even remember what I spent 6 years (7th-12th) doing, exactly. (Of course, it was somewhat rich when, after my Knowledge Bowl team came from behind to win our school's first state championship in anything in a decade, the teachers lined up to pat themselves on the back, as though we had used anything they had taught us.)

    I'm not sure that school's mission has ever been to teach. I think the purpose is to act as a warehouse for children, lest they learn about the world around them too soon for the grown-ups to handle. It's abundantly obvious that the thick-necked goons that run those places see them, fundamentally, as prisons, and themselves as wardens.

    --
    I never have frustrations, the reason is, to wit:
    If at first I don't succeed, I quit!
    1. Re:School IS boring by Thoguth · · Score: 2, Informative

      No surprise school is boring; the rise of social conservatives have ensured that everything that made any subject interesting have been scrubbed from the curriculum. I don't think it can all be blamed on "conservatives" ... but it can fairly be blamed on politics. Conservatives in Texas won't stand for textbooks that are too critical of religion or "traditional values," whether those conservative values are appropriate or not. Liberals in California won't stand for textbooks that are politically incorrect ... whether the truth of history, science or literature is politically correct or not. Since Texas and California are both major markets for textbooks, the textbook manufacturers print only books that don't offend either end of the radical spectrum. The result is textbooks that are like lunchroom food... low-nutrition, not very good, but palatable to the majority.

      I'm not sure that school's mission has ever been to teach. I think the purpose is to act as a warehouse for children, lest they learn about the world around them too soon for the grown-ups to handle. You might be interested in John Taylor Gatto's Underground history of Education in America. He comes off as a little bit tinfoil-hatted at times, but it's an interesting perspective on large-scale federalized public "factory" schools, which according to Gatto's sources were engineered to create conformity, rather than intellectual superiority
      --
      The requested URL /iframe/sig.html was not found on this server.
  7. Antecedent - Behavior - Consequence by 75th+Trombone · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Part --- not all, but part --- of the reason for more kids sucking in school is that when they go home, they've got all these gadgets that put them on a continuous reinforcement schedule. They get IMMEDIATE reinforcement on every click of the mouse, every push of a button, every touch of the stylus.

    It's been a while since I took Ed Psych, so I can't use too many more big behavior-analysis words, but when you saturate children with immediate reinforcement and then drop them into a classroom, it's pretty obvious that a good percentage of them will become zombie children. Human teachers just can't provide the reinforcement schedule that they've become accustomed to.

    --
    The United States of America: We do what we must because we can.
  8. I wish more people would think this way!!! by filesiteguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a six-year-old in second grade and a four-year-old in kindergarten. The teachers are using the same boring techniques that didn't work when I was in school and are boring the crap out of my second grader. He's already turned off by learning every monday through friday and I have to reinvigorate him on the weekend with at-home projects.

    It is unfortunate that the teaching system (of which my wife is a part) is stuck in a 19th century methodology of teaching the masses to act in unison. It is as if they're preparing these kids for the rote factory jobs of yesterday instead of the knowledge-critical jobs of today.

    I've yet to find one instance in my work (IT manager over about 60 people in a large government agency with roughly 60 servers, 1,500 staff members and 18TB of data online) where I had to fill out a scantron form or decide which option was best - a, b, c, d, or all of the above.

    As it is, I'm on the school site council, PTA and am constantly talking to the administration in my sons' school district. They just don't seem to want to 'get it.'

    1. Re:I wish more people would think this way!!! by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do agree that what people do at school generally does *not* match what they will be doing at work. I'm not quite sure how to fix it because it is not easy to test for things like collaboration skills and balancing trade-offs. If its easy to test then its also usually easy to automate. Trivia can be searched on google-like tools, for example. Thus, we have a catch-22. Do we pick something thats testable so that we can measure progress and to motivate, or something more fitting to the real world but is difficult to test objectively?

  9. So...? by AstrumPreliator · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem with schooling is that it's not "old-school" schooling. We just cater to the lowest common denominators who aren't interested in schooling which just makes it boring for those who are interested. I count myself lucky that my father instilled a great sense of curiosity in me at a young age. Yes I have an Xbox 360, gaming PC, iPod, cell phone, and all of that stuff, but as much as I like being entertained I also love learning. I have a deep interest in astrophysics, math, electrical engineering, computer science, and organic chemistry just to name a few.

    Kids aren't interested these days because no one is showing them why they should be interested. All the kids see is their parents consuming mass amounts of entertainment, no wonder they choose their Playstation 3 over their algebra homework.

    1. Re:So...? by Wildclaw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, schools doesn't cater to the lowest common denominator. The always cater to somewhere in the middle.

      This of course has the effect that those are above the level being catered to get bored, while those below the level fall behind, and never even learn to read or do basic math.

      You are right in that learning needs to be made more interesting/fun.

    2. Re:So...? by E++99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I have a deep interest in astrophysics, math, electrical engineering, computer science, and organic chemistry just to name a few.

      Kids aren't interested these days because no one is showing them why they should be interested.


      I don't think that's the reason. I think a lot of kids would be interested in engineering, astrophysics, and the like, just based on the subject matter. But once they get to college, where they can actually study those things, they look in the syllabus, and see all the advanced calculus prerequisites, and forget it. They never get the chance to learn interesting things, because nobody MADE them advance their math skills in high school instead of taking BS courses.
  10. Savvy? by cretog8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Today's generation of kids is the most technology savvy group that this country has ever produced. They are born with an iPod in one hand and a cell phone in another. They're text messaging, e-mailing, instant messaging. They're on MySpace, YouTube & Google. They've got Nintendo Wiis, Game Boys, Play Stations. ...they don't know how to cook, they can't fix their own cars. They can't search for information past typing something into Google, THEY DON'T KNOW HOW SHIT WORKS.

    OK, it's a generalization, just like his generalization. I hate the notion that "technology savvy" means "knows how to operate a user interface designed to be easy to operate". Yes, I'm an old fart (38), and grumpy. Regardless, my 4-year-old is proficient with a web browser. He is by no means tech savvy, and he learns more about real technology by interacting with a tricycle or bionicles than he does by playing some Flash game.

    That said, I agree school sucks. It sucked when I was in school ("good" public schools in the 70's & 80's) and I hear it sucks worse now. I don't particularly see what text messaging can do to improve on the suckiness.

    1. Re:Savvy? by zhrinze · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. Nobody seems to care how things got to the level they take for granted.

      "Tech-savvy" is a joke. Let's see, these kids can operate devices designed, built, and sold to the masses of people who have trouble making change at your local store.

      That's not savvy people, that's willingness to buy and use tools. Any idiot can buy a hammer, it doesn't mean he should bring it to school unless they're gonna actually be teaching him to use it properly.

      That said, the current thinking of schools seems overwhelmingly to be, "lecture, assign homework, test, repeat." Dumb. This doesn't begin to initiate critical thinking skills, creativity, or other problem-solving skills.

      WAY BACK when I was taught (OK, so I'm 40), books were extra tools except for reading classes where they were obviously required. Teaching involved a quick explanation, then everybody gave a try at the solution to a problem. You weren't upbraided if you were wrong, merely corrected. If you were right, you may or may not get praised. But now we have to worry about self-esteem.

      Which is funny too. WAY BACK nobody worried about your self-esteem and only a handful in my age bracket turned out to be ax murderers and usually that's around middle age. (sharpen, sharpen, sharpen) But the kids in SCHOOL didn't kill each other once a month around the country.

      Now that we have these excellent self-esteem policies, there are metal detectors and gun fights and widespread mayhem on campus. Maybe it's me, but I think a little punishment at a younger age was worth it.

      Side note - how do kids get into school past the metal detectors with braces...?

      The point is that when I taught college courses (14 years) I did it by making people write down what I say, practice what skills had to be mastered, and many passed tests better (and gee, what a self-esteem booster for those that REALLY deserved it).

      Rant over....

  11. But you're missing the point of school. by cliveholloway · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's not to educate you, it's to keep you in line.

    --
    -- Trinity in high heels carrying a whip: The donimatrix - there is no spoonerism
  12. Unrelated by pcgabe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They're in constant communication with each other, but when they go to school, they are told to leave those 'toys' at home. They're not to be used in school. Instead, the system continues teaching as if these kids belong to the last century, by standing in front of a blackboard.

    And? Does anyone really think the lack of cell-phones in the classroom is the problem holding American education back?

    I used to teach in Japan (by standing in front of a blackboard, an actual blackboard, with chalk and everything). We told our students to leave their cell-phones at home, too.

    Clearly, Japan's education system should be as bad as America's, given these criteria.
    --
    Don't put advice in your sig.
  13. So advanced by alphafoo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I certainly didn't like high school, but I don't remember being inflicted by boredom as much as frustration and annoyance. I never really understood why so many people called school "boring" until I started my first ever job teaching last year. I taught Arabic at a popular university in California, mostly to freshman and sophomores. Even in that rarefied atmosphere of over-achievers volunteering for a tough course, the difference between the top students and the bottom students (we were supposed to say they had "less capacity", as though they were hard drives) was vast indeed. So the problem wasn't teaching in and of itself, although that is a hard job and my hat goes off to people who actually make a career of it. No, the trouble for me was trying to teach to a bell curve of ability.

    If I left no student behind and pitched to the slower students, then I would have completely alienated the average and gifted ones. If I pitched to the gifted ones, then 80% of the class would have felt left out. If I drove down the middle of the fairway, then both ends of the curve would be, well, bored.

    So when I read this SAS guy's comment about how advanced these students are these days, with their MySpace and iPods and cell phones, I don't buy into the connection between their "cyber-lifestyle" and their educational ennui. I think a typical classroom with typical chalk and a typical board can be plenty stimulating in whatever topic, provided it's tuned to the students' ability levels. But if you are going to insist that everyone in the class is equally able to absorb the material just because they all somehow ended up in the same room together, then you are probably going to have a chunk of students tune out because they're too far behind, and a chunk tune out because they're too far ahead. It would not surprise me if those two groups together would add up to about 47%.

  14. Re:Proof That CEOs are Overpaid by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Think about what you know, and how much of it you got in school.

    One of the biggest problems with schools in the USA is that they do not reward learning, they reward docility.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  15. He nailed it on the head... by Secret+Rabbit · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... though not what he thinks.

    He outlined the problem with the *kids*, NOT the problem with schools. Perhaps if the kids didn't have access to all those toys they'd have an attention span beyond that of a chronically depressed lemming and actually be able to learn something while in class.

  16. Re: Just wondering.... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    what the author's plan for using these devices in education is? I think a lot of CEOs - and even the owners of Pa & Ma businesses, for that matter - get used to being surrounded by people who are required to listen to their opinions, however dumb they might be, and progressively develop the foolish notion that they're experts on everything.

    I wonder if he has ever taught a class.
    --
    Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  17. Re:I thought school had ALWAYS been boring. by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Education is not just intellectual, it's social too (some would say spiritual also).

    Okay, I learned Math and English and Chemistry and even Home Economics, but I also learned teamwork, leadership, negotiation, how to surf, a bunch of good jokes, how to make out with a girl, etc. Those are skills you can't easily pursue on your own...

    --
    Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
  18. MIT undergrads disagree as well by nathanicus · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm an freshman at MIT, taking a physics course (8.01 classical mechanics) that is supposed to use technology to the fullest: radio frequency response cards, computer for every third person, full integration with experiments, video feeds from the professor's desk to screens all around the room, online extra homework assignments, etc, but undergrads pretty much all agree that IT SUCKS. Interaction is far lower, the professors are tempted to stuff absurd numbers of meaningless assignments into the syllabus since they no longer need to grade them by hand, and the end result is that learning physics has become a lot harder than it needs to be. A lot of my friends have moved up to 8.012, not because it is a harder class, but because they have -normal- lecture and recitation sessions, which makes all the difference. We may like flashy technology a lot, but right now it isn't an improvement over what we have. The 'blackboard' style of teaching goes back 2000+ years for a reason.

  19. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  20. Blame the mandate by Mr2001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Students do not *normally* come to school to learn anymore. Of course not! They come to school because the law says that's where they have to spend their weekdays. It's a wonder that any of them spend their time any more productively than prisoners do.

    You get rid of the kids who cause trouble. Put them in a program to help them with their difficulties. Better yet, just stop forcing those kids to attend. It shouldn't come as a surprise that you'll have a better learning environment if the only students there are the ones who want to learn.
    --
    Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
    1. Re:Blame the mandate by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The other cool thing about removing the mandate is that a lot of people who didn't see the point of school will, after experiencing the world for a while, go back to school. That means students will no longer be segregated by age, which has many beneficial effects, such as making fast advancement of gifted students less of a problem. It also means that adults who try to improve their education will not be seen in such a negative light anymore.. and means that our society will have to provide for them, causing a more socialist attitude (in the good, European sense of the word).

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    2. Re:Blame the mandate by rizzo420 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      the mandate is there because some kids won't realize how much they need school until much later in life. then you end up with 18 year olds in class with 10 year olds. that just doesn't work.

      the age segregation thing is more beneficial to students than removing it. i remember reading a story about a 14 year old (i don't remember the exact age, but he was too young to drive) going for his phd. that's just messed up. this 14 year old will not adjust properly to real life. the reason that we keep kids of about the same age together is because they are all going through generally the same life cycles at the same time... puberty for instance. they have each other to help each other get through those various points in their life.

      while i agree that gifted students should have something else or more advanced work to keep their minds going, they shouldn't be off to college before they can drive. they end up missing out on the most important school (and i know this sounds cheesy, but it's true)... the school of life. there's a reason why geniuses end up being outcasts and maladjusted. they don't grow up the same way as everyone else. parents are too pushy to get them into harder programs and out of school faster, when all they need is a different type of attention while staying in the same grade level as everyone else.

      and i want to know where you're getting this idea that adults who try to improve their education are seen in a negative light. maybe in the backwards parts of the country, but here in the northeast, they're applauded.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    3. Re:Blame the mandate by rizzo420 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yes... they do need that free time. there are clubs and extracurricular activities. the schooling is just as important as the free time. blame the parents, not the system. the kids whose parents spend time when them sharing their own interests are the kids who end up adjusting well and succeeding in life.

      school is only 6 hours a day, 5 days a week for most high school students. the rest of the time should be spent on homework, fun stuff, and hobbies. it's those hobbies that can get people ahead, like your computer hobbyist example.

      --
      please me, have no regrets.
    4. Re:Blame the mandate by QuantumG · · Score: 3, Interesting

      then you end up with 18 year olds in class with 10 year olds. that just doesn't work. Uhhh.. says who? I actually had a mature age student or two at my high school. Nothing makes smart asses 16 year olds shut up like a fellow student telling them they better pay attention or they'll be back trying to get their diploma when they're 22, like him.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    5. Re:Blame the mandate by QuantumG · · Score: 2, Funny

      Maybe you should send your princess to a nice catholic school where she wont be exposed to the evils of the opposite gender.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    6. Re:Blame the mandate by thrillseeker · · Score: 3, Funny

      wont be exposed to the evils of the opposite gender

      Slashdot fits this criteria ...

  21. Re:Time to revisit education in general by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's not exactly PC to point it out but the average person from South Eastern country like Vietnam is light years ahead intellectually compared to the average Pakistani. Or for that matter the average American or English person.

    And it's not racial at all - I think Indians are quite similar ethnically to Pakistanis, it's just that they have a culture which is capable of teaching maths and the Pakistanis don't. Americans are somewhere in between Vietnam and Pakistan.

    And before people start to get all nationalistic and defensive about it, I said average as in Johnny Sixpack jock types in America and Madrassah fodder in Pakistan, not the 0.5% of the population who likes math and posts on slashdot. The thing SE Asian countries do well is to get average people to learn maths, mostly by old fashioned blackboard lessons a punishing curriculum and exams you can actually fail. America and Britain have dumbed things down to increase the pass rate and because telling people they're failures is a bit fascist, and Pakistan education is patchy and dominated by a poisonous religion.

    In fact if you were looking at things from a cynical point of view, the War on Terror is a handy way to keep the people too stupid to pass Calculus 101 busy from both Pakistan and America.

    --
    echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
  22. Re:Programming vs Theory by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Funny
    Writing code gives fairly immediate reinforcement since you can generally compile what you have and see how it works. If it doesn't you can tweak it and recompile.



    Let'em use punch cards and only one hour of computer time each week (Saturday night, 2 am to 3 am) for a month. That'll teach'em.


    And now get off my lawn.

  23. teachers as the source of knowledge by Jano-r · · Score: 2, Interesting

    =BAD

    Students should have the leading role on their own learning process. Instead people still spend most of their university time taking notes as there were no computers, no photocopiers.

    Put all the information online, let students make questions, update and repeat until any normal student can understand everything on their own. Let students learn at their own pace, dont drag them to class as listeners. Teachers should be just helpers, an accessory on our education.

  24. Magnificent Learning Tools by TheBrakShow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can still remember the moment that may have destroyed my aspiration to become a programmer.

    I was in 3rd grade and lucky enough to go to a private school where they actually had a computer. Sure, it wasn't much, but that little Texas Instruments TI-99 was a powerful tool in its day. My family had a TI at home and I was always fiddling with it. I would endlessly type lines of code that I couldn't even save because we didn't have a floppy drive.

    Anyways, one day during our designated free time, a classmate and I were using the computer. I was showing him some of the basic commands I had learned, PRINT, CALL COLOR, CALL SOUND, etc. I accidentally typed too many zeros or something and a CALL SOUND command resulted in an angry-sounding low pitched noise from the console.

    The teacher immediately came over and scolded me for "breaking the computer." I remember how guilty she made me feel for making use of an skill I had learned. She didn't even bother asking me what I was doing or what had happened. She just turned the computer off and made me feel ashamed.

    OK, 20 years ago many teachers didn't understand technology. I would hope that this ignorance has subsided, but I'm doubtful that even today, a student wouldn't still be discouraged from demonstrating any advanced knowledge or programming skills. A stigma still exists regarding technology in the classroom.

    Technology can be a great learning tool. But just as the article says, students are ill-served by the same old-fashioned mindset that once discouraged me from typing code into a TI-99.

    1. Re:Magnificent Learning Tools by TheBrakShow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      {sigh} only on slashdot...

      This would have been around 1989 actually. Both TI-99s were hand-me-downs. My dad eventually broke down and bought an IBM PS/1 two years later, so I could finally have a real pc to work with.

      I was hardly touch typing back then, but I was certainly competent enough to write a few lines of code. Nevertheless, your nitpicking hits on the exact point I'm trying to make. The teacher could have turned that incident into a teaching opportunity. I knew more about that computer than she did. Instead of applauding my skills, I was scolded out of ignorance. She had the same attitude as you: How could a 9 year old possibly know how to properly use a computer?

      There's a reason why I vividly remember this event nearly 20 years later. I might be a different person today if I hadn't been made to feel so guilty.

  25. Attention span by vorpal22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I certainly agree that school can be quite uninteresting at times; this was the case when I was young, and I'm sure that it's still the case now. It was always great to have a teacher that brought a subject to life and got us enthusiastic about learning, but that wasn't particularly common, at least in my case.

    One valuable skill, however, that I feel that I learned from my more boring teachers was the ability to pay attention and stay focused, even in the face of serious tedium. I think that, due to the hyperactivity inherent in our technology and society these days, this is a skill that will be sorely lacking in the current young generation. Hell, I can see a deterioration of this in myself; I'm certainly not as good at concentrating at dull tasks as I was back in the 80s and 90s, and I think it's partially because I'm surrounded by highly rewarding outlets that provide instantaneous positive stimuli. Back in the day, if I wanted to play a game on my C64, I had to wait approximately one second per block for a program to load; thus, a game took in the ballpark of a minute in order to get from disk into memory. Now, if my web browser takes more than two seconds to start, I'm wondering what's wrong and feeling slightly antsy.

    Look to entertainment for an even better example. Go ahead and download or rent some of your favourite, more exciting shows or movies from the 80s. They don't seem so exciting and stimulating in retrospect, do they? Things have changed and entertainment and technology are much, much more engrossing and instantaneously satisfying than they used to be. This is good on some levels, and bad on others. I have friends in their early 20s who are clearly very affected by this: if anyone attempts to, say, engage them in conversation and tell them a story that lasts more than a minute, you can see that they're really struggling to pay attention. Some of them will even pull out their cell phones and start "multi-tasking".

    I'm of the opinion that this high need for stimulation is almost like an addiction and probably not healthy. Again, a lot of these same early 20 year olds that I know struggle with things like ADD and anxiety disorders: they always seem keyed up and twitchy, for lack of a better word.

    So, at least in school these kids are forced to learn to pay attention, which is a highly undervalued life skill, IMO. Your boss, later on in life, is not going to go out of his way to make sure that every aspect of your job is delightfully interesting and engrossing, nor should he or she be expected to. You're going to have to sit through duller than dishwater meetings and put up with a lot of really boring grunt work on occasion; someone has to do it and I'm sure most people here can attest to the fact that it's unavoidable at times (and in many cases, quite frequently). Why should schools be any different and struggle to make every aspect of education stimulating?

  26. Wow, has Dr Jim's brain gone "Goodnight"!!!! by pandrijeczko · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Is this guy some kind of idiot???

    Prior to iPods, mobile phones, Facebook, etc. etc., were the youth of the day just standing around bored with their hands in their pockets any more than they do today?

    When I was a teenager 25-30 years ago, I read a lot, built models, did a lot of home electronics, a bit of woodwork and started programming on some of the first home computer systems - and I'd argue that I'm more technically savvy than most of the youngsters today because I learnt to build stuff from scratch so much, whether software, some wooden shelves or an electronic gizmo.

    An iPod is a portable music player like a Walkman was 15 years ago, Facebook is just an extension of writing and meeting pen-friends 20 or more years ago.

    If anything the modern "have it all now" youngsters have lost such qualities as patience and long attention spans.

    I did well at school because I DAMN WELL GOT SOME COMMON SENSE AND BUCKLED DOWN TO DOING SOME BLOODY WORK!!!!

    Remind me - HOW MANY KIDS WITH DYSLEXIA AND ADHD WERE THERE 25 YEARS AGO???

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
    1. Re:Wow, has Dr Jim's brain gone "Goodnight"!!!! by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually that raises an important distinction. I was a teen in the 90s, but I took an interest in computing early on (e.g. when I was a kid). I was more into tinkering with software and building computers than chatting on BBSes or whatever. I think kids of today know how to use technology quite readily, but do they actually understand how the hell it works? The percentage of kids who actually get how software/hardware works is probably just as low as it was during the 80s and 90s.

      I mean, being able to use a VCR (look it up kids if you don't know what that is) in the 70s didn't automatically make you an electrical engineer. Just like using an iPod doesn't make you a software engineer.

      I think we're kidding ourselves if we think that kids/teens/young adults of today actually are technically inclined to the point of knowing how things actually work.

      --
      Someday, I'll have a real sig.
    2. Re:Wow, has Dr Jim's brain gone "Goodnight"!!!! by lwriemen · · Score: 2, Informative

      >If anything the modern "have it all now" youngsters have lost such qualities as
      > patience and long attention spans.
      >
      This is bull! Kids are the same; they just have different stuff.

      > I did well at school because I DAMN WELL GOT SOME COMMON SENSE AND BUCKLED DOWN TO
      > DOING SOME BLOODY WORK!!!!
      >
      I was bored at school 25-30 years ago, just like my son is now.

      School is about mass education, and not individual education. It is set for average intelligence.

      > Remind me - HOW MANY KIDS WITH DYSLEXIA AND ADHD WERE THERE 25 YEARS AGO???

      From what I've seen, I'd say the numbers were on par with today, except that societal awareness is higher today. This may have reversed the trend from under-diagnosed to over-diagnosed, but actual numbers might be constant.

      I don't have any studies to reference for this, but I'm just following your lead. ;-)

  27. Here's an idea by Intrinsic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Marking the 50th anniversary of Sputnik with a call for renewed emphasis on science and technology in America's schools


    Actually I think it would be better to have an emphasis on expressive art with science and technology complimenting it. S&T is great for the mind, but it doesn't feed the soul.
  28. so fucking what? by tomstdenis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A lesson is a lesson regardless of whether it's in front of a blackboard or on a netmeeting whiteboard. When will these people realize that it's the MESSAGE that counts more than the medium. Not every fucking kid needs a laptop, or their own personal PDA/etc. We got along just fine in the 80s/90s with a paper agenda book, blackboards, and textbooks.

    Maybe if we expected our kids to take an interest in their own education, we wouldn't worry so much if precious wittle Johny is bored in class or not. The incentive should be to learn and explore knowledge. If the kids aren't fundamentally interested in learning, no amount of toys, gizmos, trickery, or whatnot will get them through a proper education.

    I was hardly an ideal student. I was into my own things by time I was 14, I taught myself comp.sci and cryptography usually at the expense of regular high school subjects. Yet despite all that, i still managed to graduate from high school, go to college, grad from that, and then land a career in my field of choice.

    High school dropouts are nothing more than anti-social lazy people who want instant gratification and think the world owes them everything. Oh school is boring. Well you know what, not every subject in life is going to be the most exciting thing in the world. But you go through it just the same because the more rounded your education the more versatile and interesting you become. I sure as fuck wasn't that into english lit, but I still took the courses just the same, and participated as best as I could.

    In short, stop crying and whining, nobody owes you jack squat, and if you stop making excuses like "we need laptops and powerpoint!" you'd actually realize that the problems are mostly with the students, not the system.

    --
    Someday, I'll have a real sig.
  29. Just to clarify... by langelgjm · · Score: 2, Informative

    hell, didnt some tests show that as long as the first and last letter of the word was in the right place, the other letters could be all over the place and not affect readability?

    Just to clarify, but the "tests" that so many people like to refer to didn't actually happen in the way that many people think they did. People are referring to a letter that was published in New Scientist making reference to the phenomenon. Some of the claims made in the portion of text that circulated around the Internet are clearly false; see this page for more information (he has some examples of sentences that are "scrambled" according to that rule, but are mostly unreadable).

    --
    "Anyone who [rips a CD] is probably engaging in copyright infringement." - David O. Carson
  30. Re: Just wondering.... by TimHunter · · Score: 4, Informative

    Dr. Goodnight was a statistics professor at NCSU before he started SAS. Yeah, he's taught a class.

  31. Re:Proof That CEOs are Overpaid by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Correction...

    One of the biggest problems with public schools in the USA is that they do not reward learning, they reward docility.

    Private schools are different.

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  32. I realize you need to defend your point... by SIIHP · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "Back in the day when only one parent worked out of the home, the other parent generally spent an equal amount of hours working in the home. (Cooking, cleaning, etc...) They had no, or very little, time for 'quality time'."

    But that comment is just silly.

    There is nothing about cooking, cleaning, housework in general that excludes it from ALSO being quality time.

    Your assertion that it was one or the other shows that you really have no clue what you're talking about.

    You don't think learning to bake with mom was quality time for little Susie?

    --
    I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
  33. Far Too Many Problems To List by Shaltenn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are far too many problems to list with general education systems in the United States (many of them mentioned):

    1) The insistance that everyone should be good at everything at a level (what they call General Education). I entered highschool, went through a year of cake bread and butter classes, then got transferred (because my parents moved) and the new school wanted me to be a freshman because I didn't have any of their bread and butter classes. They wanted to basically void out my entire first year of highschool because their general education requirements didn't match my old school's general education requirements. It was ridiculous - only after fighting the school board for the entire summer was I allowed to take Sophmore classes.

    2) Lowest-Common-Denominator Issues: If you're a smart kid - school is boring. Not because you're smart, but because you have to sit through the same boring bullshit 6 times because some idiot didn't understand it. Again I use the example of highschool. In algebra we were working with variables and fractions and what not, and someone did not understand for the life of them how (4/5)*x=1, x therefore (5/4). I had to listen to it for 15 minutes before he and the teacher gave up. By then I was already hazily asleep - and get sent to the office for it. For what? Being bored by stupidity? Guilty as charged.

    3) Non-choice of classes: In highschool (and now I realize college - almost graduated!) that there is practically no choice when it comes to classes. In highschool it becomes: you have to take x, y, and z - even if you don't want to. Then you can put other classes in there to fill out your schedule and do what you want. In the course of 4 years of highschool there were only 4 classes I wanted to take (Photography, AP Biology, Computer Programming, and AP Government). AP Bio and AP Gov are full year (2 semester) classes, but Computer Programming and Photography were 1 semester classes. In a semester there are 9 periods - 1 set aside for lunch. That means in a year there are 16 periods, and in a highschool period of 4 years there are 64 possible classes to take. I got to chose 6 out of 64 of my classes. Does that sound right? In college, you are required to take even MORE general education - classes that aren't your major but are designed to let you "spread your wings" so to speak. I don't want to spread, I want to focus on the things I know I can do - Mathematics and Computer Science namely. Arg!

    4) Teachers. Some (most?) teachers do not want to be there teaching little brats all day long. Believe it or not, it shows. We notice, and if you don't want to be there then I don't want to be there. The best teachers are the ones who work in that field and have a zeal for the topic. Some of the most boring sounding classes I've had, Conservation of Natural Resources, Linear Algebra, and Graph Theory to name a few, have had awesome professors that brough the topic to life and made me WANT to learn it. That makes all the difference.

    5) Restrictive policies: Remember the fun stuff from highschool? Sex Ed? History (the good history, where they tell you about specific fights/conflicts in a war and gave you real down-to-earth, person-to-person point of view)... Even *gasp* Phys Ed. All the fun things in these classes are gone because we're worried about offending a group, or pissing off the god-freaks, or making the out-of-shape people work out. The most disappointing part of highschool was finding out that the history course I wanted to take was removed and that they assigned me to a Foreign Language class instead of another history class. Not even related in the least.

    6) Mandatory teaching of foreign languages: I don't believe these are necessary. I don't plan on going to France or Spain, or any other foreign country. Except maybe Canada or the Caribbean, but those don't count. Making me take 2 years of a foreign language because "it's a changing trend" in US culture just pisses me off. Instead of making ME learn Spanish, why don't we make THEM learn ENGLISH. Not a difficult concept there.

    Ugh.

    --
    If you were offended by anything I said... No, I'm not sorry. Please lighten up.
  34. Re:NCLB and Federal Government by moeinvt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We should force the Federal Government OUT of our public school system entirely. Get rid of ALL Federal mandates, gut the Department of Education, and distribute previously allocated funds(and money saved by removal of worthless bureaucrats) equitably among the states.

    Washington DC is a fantasy land where people far removed from the trenches of the public education system dream up idiotic(if well-intentioned) laws like NCLB and then force it on our schools without adequate funding. They are, in effect, controlling even more of our education dollars by forcing schools to waste resources to comply with their ridiculous mandates(under threat of removing ALL funding of course).

    The teachers, parents, and interested people from the LOCAL community(e.g. school board members) should be the ones in control of the funding and policies of the public school system(perhaps with some limited participation from the states). The parents(most of them) and teachers have the strongest interest in the quality of education the kids are receiving, AND they are in the best position to implement meaningful and beneficial change because they are completely in touch with the day to day realities of their school system. They can certainly do better than a "one size fits all" Federal education law.

  35. Troll... Flamebait... Threadjack! by Corwn+of+Amber · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Go read the historical reasons why school really sucks

    That book explains everything you need to know about the education system, why it is so fucked and yes, why it is boring, what it really is supposed to do and how it is doing Just That Real Well.

    --
    Making laws based on opinions that stem up from false informations leads to witch hunts.
    1. Re:Troll... Flamebait... Threadjack! by nuzak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me guess, it's a massive conspiracy to create an army of unthinking worker drones that will march in lockstep to the drumbeat of some hidden political puppet masters? Or something like that?

      Hanlon's Razor isn't a universal maxim for me, but I think it applies here.

      --
      Done with slashdot, done with nerds, getting a life.
  36. Plato condemns the invention of writing by peter303 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    COmplaining aboutmodern education hasnt changed in 2400 years. Reminds of the passage from Plato's Phadreus dialog condemning the invention of writing. The speaker claimed people would use their memory less and it would become much weaker. Homer's epics are pre-writing. Lore-masters would memorize them - tens of thousands of lines. In the original greek they have a beat and rhyme fairly similar to modern rap, to assist memorization.

  37. Spoken like a true fogey. by Loosifur · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Reading that quote about the kids and their fancy gadgets all I could think about was my grandparents being frustrated with their cable remote and asking me to show them how to use their cell phones. It also reminded me of a class I had in elementary school with the somewhat vague title "Computer Class". I'm not totally sure what this class was meant to teach, but two days a week we'd march our butts down to the computer room (which, mind you, had one computer in it) and play "educational" games on an Apple IIe, or watch our teacher do something with Logo involving a "turtle". The most I got out of that class was a tremendous ability to find Carmen Sandiego.

    Around middle school an uncle of mine who works in IT gave me his old 286, some manuals, and some software, and turned me loose. I learned more about computers by repeatedly breaking and fixing that thing than I ever did in elementary school.

    What's my point? I guess I've got two, really. The first point is that a computer is just a tool. School administrators seem to think along the same lines as hillbillys, luddites, or the old and uninformed; to be "good at computers" in some vague and shadowy way means that one is technologically savvy, possesses sharp analytical skills, and is a good problem-solver. By putting computers in schools they hope to make kids technologically skilled through some sort of sympathetic magic, much in the same way shamanic belief systems might make amulets of bear teeth to confer that strength to the wearer. The idea that because kids can play video games and text message each other they can propel the nation in to technological advancement is like saying that anyone who can drive a car should be equally good a designing and building one.

    The second point I would make is that, while I wasn't thrilled with school when I was a student and I would like to see a more free-form system of education, the point of school is not primarily academic learning. School teaches you to work within an institution. Anyone can crack a book open or mess around with an engine. Formal education teaches you how to interact with a social structure similar to what one would find in most workplaces. (Similar, mind you, not identical.) That's not a worthless skill. Our society is structure, there is authority, there are rules. Whether you want to change that or not, that's the game as it stands and you need to know how to work within it.

    The third and final point I would make, although probably better made by other posts, is that this guy is pointing out the problem with students, not schools. Speaking as a knee-jerk hedonist who acts to satisfy my every whim as they occur, it's not necessarily a good thing that an 8 year old can whip out a phone and text his friends in the middle of class, or that he can pull out a PSP and watch a movie or play a video game because geometry is boring. And, seriously, as intellectually curious as I am, if I got to choose my classes in school I would be utterly incapable of even the most basic arithmetic today. Sometimes, just sometimes, it's a good thing that someone who's priorities including eating as much cookies and cream ice cream as possible and watching Duck Tales is not calling the shots with his academic future. And before anyone starts in I know that there are 6 year olds who are super focused and mature for their age who might very well be able to make responsible decisions as to their education, I'm just making the point that, when you've lived fewer years than the lifespan of some pets you may not have the perspective to make good decisions. So maybe having someone who is trained in their academic field and in the skill of education in charge might not be a bad thing? Maybe, in this case, tradition is tradition for a reason?

    --
    This unbiased moderation brought to you by the Porcine Aviation Group!
  38. Consider the source here.. by Anonymous+Meoward · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Dr. Goodnight is also the de-facto CEO of Cary, NC, a well-to-do suburb of Raleigh. He attempts to rule the place with a velvet-clad iron fist, much like David Packard tries to dictate terms to Palo Alto, CA. As a result, all the new development in Cary (and there is a lot of it) tends to resemble the set of either "The Stepford Wives" or "The Truman Show". (I know, I lived there for 13 years.) Thus Dr. Jim has the occasional delusion of God-like powers within the town limits.

    To his credit, he also started Cary Academy, a boarding school with a very intense math and science curriculum. (I think it's K-12, not sure, but I do know that SAS employees get a break on the tuition.) But I'm convinced his insights are marred by the bias of the student population he's observed there: motivated, intelligent kids with affluent parents.

    He only needs to venture a few miles west to Granville County, NC to see what the rest of the student population looks like: neglectful parents who have never known the value of an education, and who are barely scraping by in construction or crappy service jobs. (I know someone who taught there. If you ever want to know where the left-hand side of the bell curve lives, go to Granville.) I don't think any upgrade of classroom tech will transform the young lives there.

    So Jim, if you read Slashdot, please heed my advice, and pull your head out of your academy.

    --
    --- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
  39. Get off my lawn by COMON$ · · Score: 3, Insightful
    And there is a HUGE difference between being a hobbyist and an actual professional.

    However, as most seasoned IT people have figured out, 90% of the public user realm will never know the real stuff you do to make their world better. However they will think you an IT genius if you can show them how to color code their excel spreadsheet. Which is, I think how many IT people got their jobs in the first place...."Woah, a pie chart???!? You must be able to secure our webserver, manage our devs, and negotiate 6 figure budgets, thats the same!"

    --
    CS: It is all sink or swim...oh and did I mention there are sharks in that water?
  40. No they aren't by SIIHP · · Score: 5, Insightful

    "My space users are also building websites."

    Sure they are, just like interior decorators are building houses.

    --
    I only go to buffets for the unlimited soft serve.
  41. the orgins of the school system... by big_paul76 · · Score: 2

    Are, um, checkered, to say the least...

    Let's remember, that there were at least three competing philosophies/schools of thought on the purpose of universal compulsory education.

    First, there's the "Jeffersonian" idea that a well educated citizenry is essential to the proper functioning of a democracy.

    Then there's the school of thought that feels education should be quite deliberately used for social control, that is, to keep the masses in line.

    And then there's the idea that schools ought to produce people with marketable job skills that will keep them employed.

    The problem is, these are kind of in opposition to each other. The 2nd and 3rd ones might work well together, but they're diametrically opposed to the Jeffersonian ideal. I mean, which is it? Either you want happy obedient worker-bees or you want critical thinkers who will challenge the status quo.

    So, if education policy seems to be direction-less, it's because there is no clear consensus on the purpose of compulsory public education.

    --
    The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".