Video-on-Demand Success in France Deters Piracy

njondet writes "The Hollywood Reporter reports that TF1, the French broadcaster of the hit TV show 'Heroes' has welcomed the success of its video-on-demand (VOD) offering. The service allows French internet users to watch episodes of the second season of Heroes just 24 hours after their original US broadcast. With more than 50,000 paid viewings of the first episode in three days, it is by far the most successful VOD product in France. And although these figures still pale in comparison with the estimated 1.5 million illegal downloads per episode for the first season in France, TF1 is confident that it is building a viable alternative to piracy."

Comments

When can I get this?

[gbutler69]

This is something I would pay for.

Re:When can I get this?

[Rude Turnip]

I do it on the cheap:

1. Miro downloads video podcasts (2,495 tracked and lots of stuff in HD) that I subscribe to and puts them in the shared video folder on my desktop.
2. TVersity streams them over my network to my...
3. Xbox 360, which lets me enjoy my videos on my couch. Or, get something like a D-link DSM 320 network media player for less.
4. I also rip and serve movies that I get from Netflix.
5. Xbox Live has lots of current, mainstream TV programming from the major networks for about $2/show, as well as movies on demand for $3 to $5, with many in HD.

I get exactly what I want this way. More importantly, I am not subsidizing special interest programming (ie ESPN).

Re:When can I get this?

[Mishotaki]

"The episodes are available (with French subtitles) starting from 2.99 euros each, or by packs of two (4.99 euros) or three episodes (5.99 euros)"
that's pretty expensive for an episode... considering that it's either streamed or rented only...
at least i'd expect it to be legally sold to you for such a price...

i'd still download it for that price... i'd pay a buck for the "priviledge" of viewing it once... but not 3 bucks (more since it's in euro) to view it once...

Re:When can I get this?

[DigiShaman]

Titled: When can I get this?
Comment: This is something I would pay for.

You DO know that local cable co's have been providing this service for years now. Right? If you've got Comcast or Time Warner, give them a call.

Re:When can I get this?

[DragonPup]

NBC currently allows you to watch episodes free online after they air in exchange for watching a couple of ads. http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/video/episodes.shtml

Re:When can I get this?

[British]

Comcast's OnDemand service is awful. There's only a handful of movies available, and even less in HighDef. Their Sundance(I think) exclusive movies charge MORE for a viewing, even though it's not in HighDef.

Re:When can I get this?

[anagama]

Fuck NBC.

Re:When can I get this?

[Y-Crate]

Comcast's OnDemand service is awful. There's only a handful of movies available, and even less in HighDef. Their Sundance(I think) exclusive movies charge MORE for a viewing, even though it's not in HighDef. Not to mention the fact that most of their films are Pan and Scan, and end up stuttering and pixelating a third of the time, at which point the cable box is liable to hard freeze.

Re:When can I get this?

[DigiShaman]

I hope your not putting up with that level of service. If that's the quality of your digital cable experience, you should call them ASAP to schedule a technician. The issue won't magically correct itself; YOU have to call it in to them.

Digital cable is great technology that yeilds an excellent picture. But in the event of trouble, you should get it corrected and ask for a refund on your bill.

Re:When can I get this?

[dascritch]

Not available here in France.
The TF1 VOD service is also accessible via my Freebox (Free.fr FAI was the first one in Europe to have TVoIP, and actually, having more than 2 millions subscribers to their triple-play service), and I am nearly never giving my credit card number on the net, so I was very happy : I can watch it and paying via my FAI billing.

Oh, and it is in HD.

But I agree : it's very costly.

And perhaps Heroes would not have been so pirated in France, if it wasn't broadcast during summer, 3 episodes by Saturday evening, cut-a-lot and with a stupid song in the opening.
You just go off for a weekend, and you miss 3 episodes. So what do you think happened ?
audience downed from 7m to 3m viewers for the finale.

hm

[Zironic]

With 24 hours after the US episodes they're probably 23 hours behind the pirates.

Re:hm

[Anonymous Coward]

23 hours is not a big price to assure that you are in legal territory. especially for households. businesses are different matter.

Re:hm

[Mattsson]

Probably, but lots of people find it a hassle to find and download movies.
At some price-point, the these people will rather pay to simply watch a Video-on-Demand right on their TV at the press of their remote-control than to download it for free, connect their computer to the TV or burn it to DVD and then watch it.

The biggest reason for pirating movies is the inconvenience of the legal alternatives.
When pirating is more inconvenient than purchasing, people are prepared to spend.

Re:hm

[Anonymous Coward]

You heard of this thing called timezones? Unless they're layabout college students, most french people are probably asleep when US shows air, so time really isn't all that important.

Re:hm

[TheRaven64]

They're starting to compete with the pirates though. For a show like Heroes, I'd love to be able to get it at the same time as it airs in the US (give or take a day), automatically downloaded to my computer, DRM-free, and I'd probably pay $1-2 per episode, up front for the entire season, for the privilege. The same is true of a few other shows. I mostly watch TV by renting the DVDs these days, but it would be nice to have a (legal) way of getting it earlier. Hell, even releasing the DVD boxed set, worldwide, before it aired on TV would do it.

Re:hm

[suv4x4]

With 24 hours after the US episodes they're probably 23 hours behind the pirates.

Uhmm, are you telling me you'd rather pirate it rather than wait 24 hours? Jesus.

Delays are a big problem when the series/movie come 6 months to full year after US release (or even more). That has made me pirate within days after US release.

But 24 hours. What will you think of to say if they start releasing it at the same minute?

Re:hm

[Zironic]

Then I'll be happy :=)

Re:hm

[Zironic]

Releasing on DVD before TV is a bad business decision.

To get the most money you want as many people as possible to watch on TV for advertising money and then once you got that money you want them to pay again for the DVD.

If you release the DVD first the people that bought the DVD are unlikely to watch it on TV meaning you lose money.

However selling it online the moment the show ends would be nice.

Re:hm

[Anonymous Coward]

With 24 hours after the US episodes they're probably 23 hours behind the pirates. I think, US TV series usually come to Europe months after they have been broadcasted in the US. And then, at least here in Germany, they are dubbed. So if you want to see them legaly, in the original version, you have to wait until the DVD set of the season comes out. That would usually be in the order of a year later (wild guess)?

I think that is what drives many TV series fans here to look for downloads. A 24 hour delay is nothing in comparison, and I don't think that so many people care to wait that long. And if the price is OK...

Re:hm

[RonnyJ]

Isn't a large part of the success here just down to the 'on-demand' version having French subtitles? The US-broadcast version isn't really an alternative if you need that.

Re:hm

[mangu]

Isn't a large part of the success here just down to the 'on-demand' version having French subtitles?

Do they have subtitles? From my experience watching French TV the few times I have been there, everything is dubbed in French. That's for both broadcast and whatever cable they have in hotels, the only English language channel I ever watched in France was CNN.

Re:hm

[RonnyJ]

They do have subtitles.

From the second linked article in the summary: The episodes are available (with French subtitles) starting from 2.99 euros each, or by packs of two (4.99 euros) or three episodes (5.99 euros).

Re:hm

[Monsieur_F]

I guess 24h is not enough to dub it, so it is subbed.

And while it is unfortunalety true that major networks almost never use subs and always dubs, Heroes is kinda an exception: while the classic analog broadcasted version was dubbed, it was possible for people receiving the new digital broadcast to choose between subbed and dubbed version.

Some show like Friends used to be subbed on some cable channels.

(Oh, and France just defeated the New Zealand)

Re:hm

[wishmechaos]

While TV rips come out about a half hour after the episode is broadcast, it won't have subtitles, and fansubs take at least a day until they have acceptable quality.

Re:hm

[alxbtk]

Dedicated groups of people usually do the subtitles overnight for the pirate versions anyway...

Re:hm

[AtrN]

Uhmm, are you telling me you'd rather pirate it rather than wait 24 hours?

I'll bite... Yes. I have watched, here in .au, episodes of certain things before they were seen on the USA west coast thanks to helpful individuals on the east coast. I can then post spoilers along with all the other dicks and feel really good about myself.

More seriously such fast, world-wide, distribution should be seen as opportunity - a global approach to marketing, an expansion of the audience (which is especially useful for more niche genres). And I'll gladly pay, a reasonable amount, if they'd just let me buy the fucking thing. They deserve some reward.

As it is the business types mess things up totally and actually end up reducing the potential audience for their product (selling ad slots). Then they spend all their time complaining that consumers are pirating when its their own fault for not providing the product in the first place. Consumers are like water. They'll take the path of least resistance when they really want something. The content profiteers need to adapt to the changing technology (I know, preaching to the converted here). Part of the problem is that the new technology undermines certain people's rather entrenched, and often very well paid, positions and they'll do everything possible to hold on to their cushy jobs - doing lunch and brokering deals as if they know something about how to attract consumer eyes yet all the evidence (channel BT et al) is that they don't.

Re:hm

[heinousjay]

The biggest reason for pirating movies is the inconvenience of the legal alternatives.

Bullshit. If it was about convenience, people wouldn't be downloading video recorded copies of in-theater movies with an "audience-enhanced" soundtrack. They'd just go to the theater. People don't want to pay.

Re:hm

[Futile Rhetoric]

Some download because it's cheaper. Others do it because they're not into the whole theatre experience.

Re:hm

[LordSnooty]

Uhmm, are you telling me you'd rather pirate it rather than wait 24 hours? Jesus.

Maybe not, but I'm sure many people would say "I'd rather pirate it than pay for it".

Re:hm

[CastrTroy]

I live in Canada, so I have the priviledge of watching shows the same time they are aired in the US. Sometimes earlier, thanks to our Atlantic time zone and time shifting via digital cable. Anyway, I got a new iPod Nano, and I'm using it to watch the shows I've recorded with SageTV, and then watch them the next day on my commute to work (on the bus). I think for something like this to really beat piracy, they are going to have to provide this level of freedom. For $50 you can buy the season on DVD. So for $2 an episode, you're already paying $50 for the download. So it had better be DRM free so you can watch it on any capable device, and give you the ability to keep the videos. Otherwise, people will go to piracy, because it gives them so much more functionality. I would pay $1 for every show I watched, if it meant I got to keep a copy, and be able to watch it on any device, including my TV.

Re:hm

[Korin43]

I agree. If the choice is between spending a couple hours to download something that you can use however you want with no hassle, or paying 10x the value of the product for something you can barely use, piracy is the obvious choice.

Re:hm

[aichpvee]

I'd like to see someone start offering free episode downloads (without commercials) for people who pre-order the DVD set up front. I'd pay $60 or so to be able to do that. Not for Heroes, but for a show I liked.

Re:hm

[Dan541]

Often the so called "illegal" copy is better than the purchased copy that is especially true for music.

Re:hm

[mpe]

Uhmm, are you telling me you'd rather pirate it rather than wait 24 hours? Jesus.

Since people are likely to start discussing the episode online as soon as it finishes 24 hours is likely to matter. Since France is several hours ahead of the US a 24 hour delay means that it might be closer to two days after. Whereas with bittorrent someone can set the download going when they wake up and have it ready to watch that evening. Which is before it's even available via the official service.

Re:hm

[mpe]

More seriously such fast, world-wide, distribution should be seen as opportunity - a global approach to marketing, an expansion of the audience (which is especially useful for more niche genres). And I'll gladly pay, a reasonable amount,

The current lot wouldn't like any lack of price differentiation though.

As it is the business types mess things up totally and actually end up reducing the potential audience for their product (selling ad slots).

Many ads don't travel well. Even many involving supposedly "global brands".

Then they spend all their time complaining that consumers are pirating when its their own fault for not providing the product in the first place. Consumers are like water. They'll take the path of least resistance when they really want something. The content profiteers need to adapt to the changing technology (I know, preaching to the converted here). Part of the problem is that the new technology undermines certain people's rather entrenched, and often very well paid, positions and they'll do everything possible to hold on to their cushy jobs - doing lunch and brokering deals as if they know something about how to attract consumer eyes yet all the evidence (channel BT et al) is that they don't.

That's the problem they are too concerned about proping up the status quo. Even to point of demanding that new technologies emulate limitations things which have been obsolete for decades.

Re:hm

[mpe]

While TV rips come out about a half hour after the episode is broadcast, it won't have subtitles, and fansubs take at least a day until they have acceptable quality.

Subtitles matter only to people who don't understand the original language. English (and to some extent Arabic) are languages which are understood by many people in many places.
Does the official download come with subtitles which can be switched on and off also how do these compare with "fansubs"?

Re:hm

[mpe]

If it was about convenience, people wouldn't be downloading video recorded copies of in-theater movies with an "audience-enhanced" soundtrack.

Being able to watch in your own home at a time of your choosing is about convenience.

They'd just go to the theater. People don't want to pay.

If "just go to the theater" would mean having to travel several thousand miles then not wanting to pay may be part of issue. But even if the travel were free having to spend the best part of a few days in an aircraft hardly qualifies as "convenient". That's before you even consider how many places treat passengers currently.

Re:hm

[mpe]

If the choice is between spending a couple hours to download something that you can use however you want with no hassle, or paying 10x the value of the product for something you can barely use, piracy is the obvious choice.

There are situations where 10x the value might itself be considered a bargin.

Re:hm

[mpe]

I think, US TV series usually come to Europe months after they have been broadcasted in the US. And then, at least here in Germany, they are dubbed. So if you want to see them legaly, in the original version, you have to wait until the DVD set of the season comes out.

Even though broadcast television has had the ability to have viewer selected audio tracks subtitling for some time.

Re:hm

[Mattsson]

Compare
"Sitting at home watching a movie at lousy quality any time of day, pausing to go to the toilet and having a cup of coffee, without leaving the apartment."
with
"Going to the bus-stop, waiting for ten minutes in the rain, switching bus, waiting for another ten minutes in the rain, running to the theater since you're a bit late due to the bus, waiting in queue at the theater for a ticket, waiting in line to get a snack, finding you seat, leaving in the middle of the movie to go to the toilet, waiting at the bus stop for the bus home, waiting while switching bus, coming home and discover that someone has stolen you wallet."

What's more convenient? =) (Ok, an extreme example, but it paints the picture)

Of course there are many for which the money is the biggest motivator, but I think that in most cases, people are just lazy.

It's simple

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheap/easy beats free/hard (for most people).

Re:It's simple

[Kimberly.Watson]

http://www.redcurtainmovies.com/

Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Whuffo]

In spite of what many say, searching out and downloading videos is not exactly easy or convenient. And the quality of the downloaded video may be anything from great to awful; you won't know until after you've spent hours / days downloading that huge file.

But people do this - and often it's not because they're cheap, it's because it's the only way they can watch a TV show or movie. When there's no "legal" option for seeing a highly rated show that's not available in your country then the only way that people can see it is to do the pirate thing.

If the media companies would make these products easy to download at a reasonable price they'd tap into a profitable new market. This French "experiment" shows how well; the number of paying users may be dwarfed by the number of pirated copies - but that many paying users signing up this quickly is impressive.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Anonymous Coward]

In spite of what many say, searching out and downloading videos is not exactly easy or convenient.

Oh, bullshit.

And the quality of the downloaded video may be anything from great to awful; you won't know until after you've spent hours / days downloading that huge file.

"Awful" is an exaggeration, but it's true that the "scene" morons tend to fuck things up. They've certainly destroyed a number of Colbert Report and Daily Show episodes, by cutting out parts that weren't commercials.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Kjella]

In spite of what many say, searching out and downloading videos is not exactly easy or convenient. And the quality of the downloaded video may be anything from great to awful; you won't know until after you've spent hours / days downloading that huge file.

Reality disagrees with you.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Zironic]

It takes me on average 5 minutes to find the TV Show I want and 40 Minutes to download an episode in very good quality. If I wanted I could double the time to get it in HD.

http://www.eztvefnet.org/frontpage.php

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[MBCook]

Make it easy for me.

I haven't been watching Heros (I intend to rend the DVDs). But I just missed a couple of shows the other night due to cable outage. Some are re-run on other networks later. Some are re-run on the same network later. Some I just don't care enough about to bother with. But some, I really want to see.

If I could download the episode on my TiVo for $0.99 or something there is no question I'd do it. I'd want it HD, but I'd do it. If it was a little cheaper SD would be OK. Frankly I don't care about owning it.

Problem is that many shows aren't available though Amazon's Unbox downloads. Or they want too much money.

I just wish the networks would re-run their shows later in the night like cable channels do. I know they do that for a very specific reason (same feed goes to both the east and west coasts) but it would make my life much easier. Surely a re-run of the most recent Heros later that night (say midnight-ish) should pull in more viewers than some infomercial. Run it Saturday night, or during Sunday (mid-day). You can get viewers.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I get my shows through rss..it takes approximately 3.5 minutes to download a 350mb release..its hilariously easy

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[IdleTime]

I'm not interested in any of those shows and the ones I want are not there or nobody offers them. So, I prefer a legal way of getting them.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize that it's an RSS feed, right? Shows older than a few days scroll off the list.

Re:Finally, somebody's using their head about this

[weber]

How's this TV Torrents: When 'piracy' is easier than legal purchase for "not exactly easy or convinient"?

The success will not last...

[neonux]

Not at the current price of 3 euros (4.2 US$) by episode !!
Let's say the whole season has 24 episodes, it costs 72 euros (101 US$) for viewing the whole season through this system! More or less twice the price than a DVD boxset, but here you download only DRM-emcumbered files that you are allowed to play FOR JUST 48 HOURS [then you have to repay].

Re:The success will not last...

[AmaDaden]

Yeah but people don't notice that. There is a massive difference between $101 for a season and $4.2 an episode. It feels cheaper to pay one episode at a time even if it's really not any cheaper. As over priced as this system is at least the major companies are starting to give us options. With any luck the prices and restrictions will fall as this becomes a standard way to deliver content.

Re:The success will not last...

[mastershake_phd]

$4.2 X 50,000 = $210,000. Is that even enough to make this system worth the trouble for the networks?

Re:The success will not last...

[suv4x4]

I can not understand why if they face dropping TV viewership and dropping DVD sales, supposedly because of illegal digital downloads (free), when they decide to go for digital downloads, they price them sky high.

The theory is they want it to fail so they can keep making use of their existing broadcast and distribution infrastructure.

I have a simpler theory. They're just greedy f**ks who have no clue whatsoever.

That's ok though. Independent content will in the next years start approaching commercial quality, and then those big studios are completely screwed.

Re:The success will not last...

[suv4x4]

$4.2 X 50,000 = $210,000. Is that even enough to make this system worth the trouble for the networks?

How much do you think they will make to air it with commercials on TV?

Of course it's worth it, the internet delivery system scales to fit demand, whatever it is. And don't forget that's just for France. Imagine if they start distributing in the entire EU and let viral information spread so people know they have the option.

Also if they made only $210,000 on this first attempt, don't forget the price is abnormally high, and this stifles purchases for no good reason but greed (well, and possibly they WANTED to sell less since they can't meet greater demand on their experimental/beta setup).

But out of (they say) 1,5 million illegal downloads next to the 50k legal ones, let's say 30% of those would rent the DRM version if it was consistently easy and fast to download, high quality, and just 50 eurocents (USD 0.7066).

0.7066*(50,000 + 500,000) = 388,630;

So, we dropped the price 6 times, and earned nearly twice more money. Not bad.
This doesn't even take into account the many people who don't pirate, but will order since it's easy, convenient and affordable.

Re:The success will not last...

[Beretta Vexe]

It's not so unusually hight priced for France. A season is usally split in two boxset at 29 or 39 the boxset. You only lost the opportunity to rip share the DVD, and the French dub ( not a big lose for Heroes ).

Re:The success will not last...

[pakar]

Well, to distribute 50000 copies of a show via some bittorrent type of distribution is not hard and don't cost much..

But lets talk some numbers...
Lets say one series has 10,000,000 online-viewers over the world, and that is a quite low figure, and put the price at 2 bucks per viewing. With lets say 24 episodes per year that would then get them around $480,000,000 per year or $20,000,000 per episode.

You always have to think world-wide about this. The problem is currently that they air something in the states and if we are lucky here in Europe we might get it 6-12 months later and sometimes they even skip a season or broadcast them out of order.

What i would love to see is some type of product with the following functionality.
- Downloads the show as soon as it's released.
- Compatible with a multitude of providers to avoid have to get one box per provider. (some standardized protocol for getting it or one provider that acts as a proxy between the users and the studios, like the current networks are doing)
- If P2P distribution then let the users gain credits by seeding or allow them to turn of seeding if they don't want to.
- Very large archive of old movies and shows!!! (preferably all movies/shows ever produced)
- Fixed Monthly cost for as much shows i want to see. (maybe 2 separate accounts, one for shows and one for movies)
- No quality-degradation just because it's via the net.
- Must be a couple of different boxes to allow people to hook it up their preferred way (DVI/Scart/SVideo etc) and should at least have support for 5.1 surround.
And the limitations i could agree too:
- 2 price models maybe where one that costs $0.5 per view and one that costs $2 but that allows me to burn it to DVD/CD.
- Hardware lockdown (video-decryption in the GPU maybe?), just as long as the hardware allows me to receive content from multiple provides.
- Access-card requirement per provider, but then there should be multiple slots or allow to connect extra card-readers (USB?) to the box, but it must support multiple boxes so i can use the same subscription from multiple boxes. (just have one 'master' that the slave-boxes connect to, and this would reduce the cost for the small boxes to)
- Free shows with advertisements, but never advertisements in shows you have to pay for.

With something like this we could get around the idiotic people at the networks that cancels good shows just because a show gets bad ratings at some off-hour... And to our and their delight every show would get prime-time airing since people can view it when they prefer and not when the networks has some slot to fill.

Re:The success will not last...

[pakar]

Oh, forgot to mention. This is how i view TV today, but using normal broadcasts for the distribution .. And from time to time i download something ;) ...

One show that has kicked off in the right direction is http://www.sanctuaryforall.com/ and it's only available online...

Re:The success will not last...

[Anonymous Coward]

it costs 72 euros (102 US$)

Fixed that for you...

Re:The success will not last...

[Anonymous Coward]

The facts are there and the program was a success.
People love American produced films/T.V. and this shows that they are willing to pay for it.

Just because your nerd opinion says 'success will not last' doesn't have any credibility and is the usual negative attitude around here to hearing that a corporation has had success.

You stated your facts and here is mine.
People don't give a shit about DRM so get over yourself and stop acting life you represent the majority.
You must be some of the poor souls who turns a blind eye to the success of Itunes Store and see that they can charge a pretty hefty sum for the song. Again the facts are there and once again another genius around here seems to predict the future of the marketplace.

Re:The success will not last...

[CastrTroy]

I thought that almost looked like someone was headed in the right direction. Until I saw the price. $2 an episode? Where do they get their market research information? Do people actually think paying $2 an episode is a good price? If there are 24 episodes in a season (pretty standard for regular TV) then that's $48 a season. At that price, I'll wait for the DVD to come out and get a hard copy. The digital download which has no distribution chain, and no physical product should be much cheaper than the DVD. I would pay a maximum of $1 per episode, althought $0.50 would be much more to my liking. That's why I only download music on eMusic. They're the only ones that I've found that have a reasonable pricing structure.

Re:The success will not last...

[CastrTroy]

Oh, let me add... for a 17 minute episode? you have got to be kidding me. When I saw $2 for SD, I assumed that was for a 1 hour (or 45 minute, like TV without ads) episode. Not for 17 minutes of footage. I wish this show luck, but I don't know how anybody can justify spending $2 for a 17 minute TV episode.

Re:The success will not last...

[mapkinase]

At least at home we can watch this crap on NBC for free next day.

Re:The success will not last...

[pakar]

Hehe, well i said that they where heading in the right direction with online-distribution and 'buy the whole season' options... but i agree that $2 per episode is a bit steep for 17 minutes.. Have written about that on their blog but never got any response from them except for other viewers agreeing with that the minute-price of the show was too high.. I did read that they where looking over the pricing of the show but i never heard anything more about that, maybe that will come for the next season..
The only problem i have with these type of series is that you never know when they will get terminated, they really need to make a commitment that 'we will air atleast 4 seasons' and maybe even allow people to buy the 4 seasons even before they are produced as a way of securing capital for the production.. Ie the users decide if they want a show to continue.

But i think Sanctuary is doing a good job to test the market and hopefully after the first season they will get closer to what people are willing to pay...

Re:The success will not last...

[ptegan]

Expensive maybe but it's a little cheaper than 3 as it's 6 for a pack of 3 episodes so 48 for the season.

Re:The success will not last...

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

The success will not last

Why not? Sure the DRM thing, but can you explain why it has been so successful now, and why it will stop being successful in the future?

Perhaps it won't 'cause the old mantra is true: people truly do want to pay for content, but they just haven't had the chance/found the right price.

Re:The success will not last...

[CastrTroy]

You don't get any guaranty with regular TV either. I was quite annoyed when they cancelled Invasion after 1 season. Especially with the ending they left. Again, Jericho almost got cancelled, but apparently they are bringing it back mid-season. Meanwhile, they have 18 different crime dramas, and 37 medical dramas. It seems like every show I get really interested in they cancel.

Re:The success will not last...

[pakar]

Well, with the above it could be made available... 'if X people sign up for the series we will produce another show' and since the production company would never see the money before the produce the show you dont have to worry about those grab'n'run scams..

But also, if all shows would be airing at 'primetime' it would greatly increase the number of viewings... And you would also get rid of the war between the channels as they fight for viewers to watch their channel..
This is mainly why i setup my HTPC here and record everything before i view it... then all things i want to view is available at the click of a button instead of when the broadcaster wants me to view the show..

Are you astroturfing?

[Rix]

Because searching out and downloading videos is trivially easy. Head to ISOHunt or The Pirate Bay an hour or so after broadcast, and there will be hundreds or thousands of people seeding any tv show. They come in standardized formats and there isn't really any variance in quality.

However, you're right about people doing this as the only option. I don't subscribe to cable and I have no intention of ever doing so, so bittorrent is my only option.

On the other hand, pricing and product quality may make these services useless. I expect at least as high quality as I would get from bittorrent (meaning DRM is right out), and I expect to pay significantly less than DVD pricing.

Re:Are you astroturfing?

[The One and Only]

Head to ISOHunt or The Pirate Bay an hour or so after broadcast, and there will be hundreds or thousands of people seeding any tv show.

In my experience there are hundreds of people leeching any given TV show, and anywhere between 1 and a dozen seeding. More than once I have to wait overnight for it to finish (not because it takes that long but because it stretches past my bedtime).

Re:Are you astroturfing?

[TheThiefMaster]

http://eztvefnet.org/ for TV.

They even have an RSS feed to allow you to automatically download new eps.

Have a "per season" price with free DVD

[davidwr]

For a good show, I'd pay a few bucks an episode or $SEASON_DVD_PRICE per season, whichever is less. I'd want it within a few days of the original airing.

If I paid for the season, I'd expect a coupon that would let me buy the DVD for the cost of manufacturing and shipping.

I know of people who pirate British and Japanese stuff because they can't get it in America. If they could get it, they wouldn't pirate.

Re:Have a "per season" price with free DVD

[JoshHeitzman]

For a good show, I'd pay a few bucks an episode or $SEASON_DVD_PRICE per season, whichever is less. I'd want it within a few days of the original airing. If I paid for the season, I'd expect a coupon that would let me buy the DVD for the cost of manufacturing and shipping. I'd go for paying the season DVD price to watch each episode once on demand along with that coupon to get the actual DVD set at cost. Otherwise, screw 'em I'll wait for it to come out on DVD.

Re:Have a "per season" price with free DVD

[SpectreBlofeld]

What I would like to see is a Netflix-like model in which a user pays a flat rate per month for total access to content. It would work the exact same way as Netflix - a subscriber would have X amount of content (say, three movies or five TV episodes) cached locally on the user's system in encrypted format, and the content would have to be 'returned' (ie, deleted) before downloading more (to prevent bandwidth hogs from queing an entire season at once). Content could be purchased permenantly for an extra charge.

Re:Have a "per season" price with free DVD

[justinlee37]

If they could get it, they wouldn't pirate.

Not necessarily ... a lot of the people pirating those things are also the people pirating domestic media.

Re:Have a "per season" price with free DVD

[davidwr]

By "they" I was referring to specific individuals.

I'm sure in general you are correct, there are people out there who pirate whether they can get it legally or not.

Why Pay to Fight Piracy

[Nymz]

Article Snippet - ...TF1 and NBC will now assess whether simultaneous broadcasting through VOD is a viable business model to fight piracy...

Who thinks that consumers would want to pay you to fight piracy? But I bet consumers would pay you for an episode of their favorite show Heroes, that included French subtitles. Please feel free to use my idea, of selling goods and services that people want to buy, it's not patented.

Where's my honorary MBA?

[PCM2]

I actually figured this out a while ago.

1.5 million people jump through hoops to get unauthorized copies of something they can't get any other way. What do you do?

You start selling it to them legitimately. It's genius. It's so brilliant it's diabolical. The people will never see it coming.

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[webmaster404]

That what game companies are realizing, just look at Nintendo's Virtual Console, it saves people who want the old games but cartrages are scarce or they broke, from downloading the ROMs, really the only benefit for the ROMs now are to play them on your computer/mobile device.

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[glwtta]

1.5 million people jump through hoops to get unauthorized copies of something they can't get any other way. What do you do?

Their main problem at this point is that the illegitimate way is so much more convenient than any of the legitimate ones I've ever seen - you do a quick search, click a link, and you have the show/movie as fast as your bandwidth will allow (assuming we are talking about more or less popular things). Better yet, with RSS support in all modern BT clients, it's just waiting for you a couple of hours after it aired.

There's just no hoops to jump through anymore.

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[SpectreBlofeld]

The key here is quality and reliability. I've gone the underground route to watch shows that I've missed airing due to work obligations - it really sucks to miss out on an important episode in a story arc, and not get another chance to see it till reruns or DVD release (which may never happen!).

Sure, I got to see the episodes, but there was a vast range of quality - one episode would look great and have clear audio, but the next one I watched would be washed out, grainy, and have Chinese subtitles plastered on the screen at all times.

Then there's foreign films/shows pirated and delivered here: again, uneven quality, and usually fan-made subtitles that are almost incomprehensible.

I'd pay for quality content, with closed-captions available in my native language, commercial-free.

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[Kjella]

I have no idea how many watch it on TV when it airs, but I'm guessing it's quite a lot - at least a damn lot more than the 50k downloading it legally. Now you're in a business relationship with this TV station, but you tell them "Hey, we'd like to send this over the Internet and on the US schedule, legitimizing getting it before the TV airing and turning the watercooler talk to suit online viewers. In the long term this may effectively negate all the investments you've done in the broadcast system, squeezing you out of the market." Can your honorary MBA see any potential issues here? It's not like they're going to just bend over and die, and even if they wanted to they probably couldn't because not everyone has the bandwidth or want to use the computer to watch TV. Being ini an adverserial business relationship is not pretty, not pretty at all.

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[mpe]

Their main problem at this point is that the illegitimate way is so much more convenient than any of the legitimate ones I've ever seen - you do a quick search, click a link, and you have the show/movie as fast as your bandwidth will allow (assuming we are talking about more or less popular things).

It's also cross platform and you don't need a special player for each "channel".

Re:Where's my honorary MBA?

[Klaus_1250]

Also, no ads and with a bit of luck, the show is available in HDTV. Here in the Netherland, most populair (US) series are broadcasted 6 to 12 months (!) later. We have a few HDTV channels, but none of them with any populair content (NG and Discovery are ok though) and you pay extra for them. Personally, I wouldn't mind paying 1 (SDTV) or 2 (HDTV) euro for a premium show, as long as there are no ads or DRM involved and I wouldn't need to wait 6 to 12 months to see.

Hollywood-style statistics?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where did they get that ridiculous figure of 1.5 million illegal downloads per episode, for France alone?

The population of France is about 62 million people, closing in on 63.

Maybe 1.5M = real number of downloads, times the population of France, divided by the number that own a computer, multiplied by the number of persons in the average household (because they figure that once it's downloaded the whole family will illegaly watch it together)?

Re:Hollywood-style statistics?

[Anonymous Coward]

It figured it out, it's much simpler than that.

1.5 million == the total number of people in France who understand enough English to watch the downloaded episodes.

And all 1.5 million of them downloaded every episode of the season.

Re:Hollywood-style statistics?

[Oktober Sunset]

The number of French who speak fluent English is probably about 60 million, with the remaining 2 million being immigrants who don't even speak French.

Ha

[Anonymous Coward]

Estimated 1.5m? Estimated? Well yes, I'm sure legitimate downloads will pale in comparison to any number you make up... Personally I have heard a different estimate you may wish to use instead: 700 Trillion people pirated the episodes, it is just an estimate though. Another estimate was, not only did no-one illegally download it but they gave money to the producers of the show, y'know, just for kicks; this number (zero, or maybe negative 1 million people as they gave money away for nothing in return) but I must stress this is also an estimate...

Why don't you pick which estimate to use.

Greed

[Bo'Bob'O]

I have said it before, and will say it again. If companies had got on the ball from the beginning, taken care of licensing concerns and charged REASONABLE rates for VOD ( nothing I have seen so far has led me to believe that every pair of eyeballs is really pulling in $2-4 in advertising revenue) they wouldn't be looking at a fraction of the piracy they see right now.

Maybe instead of those trailers that talk about how the men and women working on films are getting put out of work by pirates, they should start talking about how many are put out of work by GREED. They have really messed things up by only looking at technological progress as a way to extract even more money from consumers, rather then the boon for both it should have been.

Searching isn't the hassle. Waiting for the dl is.

[Spy der Mann]

Having your computer turned on for hours and days before your download is finished, is really annoying.

This is why I prefer to use streaming websites when I decide to watch an (unlicensed of course ;-) ) anime, rather than starting the torrents and waiting for them to download.

Having video-on-demand is the next logical step.

Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is better than free how?

(does the above link not work in France?)

Re:Am I missing something?

[janrinok]

No, the above link does not work in France, or many other countries in Europe. In fact, it might only work in the USA.

Re:Am I missing something?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting. I watched all of season 1 online. (on my laptop it is commercial free because some deal they did with Intel) I figured that they were giving away season 1 as a free taste and was fully expecting season 2 to either not be online or to cost something.

If I were paying for it, I would want it in a format that I could play on my iPaq. $4 an episode, however, is insane. $0.50 an episode for quality and format appropriate for a mobile device (let the folks who care about HD pay for it. I want 320x240!) would catch my eye. I'd even be willing to pre-pay for the whole season as a bundle, as long as the individual episodes became available within reasonable time of their air date.

You listening NBC?? All you need to do is agree to take my money. I know. Too hard. Free it is then.

Re:Am I missing something?

[ditoa]

I am in the UK and just tried the link. It allows me to select an episode and then a chapter but when I select the chapter I want it says it is not available in my location. It does this for all the episodes and chapters I tried :(

Re:Am I missing something?

[wizardforce]

do they french not know of tor/proxy servers?

Re:Am I missing something?

[Beretta Vexe]

Yes, we know how to use a proxy. Tor exit node aren't all located in the US, in fact really few are in the US. Finding a proxy with enough bandwidth (not overwhelmed by peer to peer traffic) for VOD, isn't that easy. French are number one for piracies in Europe, it's faster and more easy to download it from a friend than from the US.

Re:Am I missing something?

[TheVelvetFlamebait]

Certainly not in Australia.

Re:Typical French behavior.

[tietokone-olmi]

Without France there wouldn't be an USA, just a greater Britain.

fox has there shows online with less

[Joe The Dragon]

fox has there shows online with less brakes then on TV.

Re:fox has there shows online with less

[Anonymous Coward]

>>fox has there shows online with less brakes then on TV.

I'm sorry, but

FOX* has their* shows online with fewer* breaks* than* on TV.

While on the subject

[ditoa]

The UK broadcast of Heroes is currently half way through season one so it will be a _long_ wait until I can see season two.

I don't feel too bad downloading it from newsgroups as the BBC already have the rights to broadcast Heroes season two next year and as I am unable to not pay my TV license (which goes to the BBC) I do not see anything wrong with download it and watching it. I am simply doing what the BBC is going to do next year anyway.

Anyone else feel the same?

Re:Typical French behavior.

[Anonymous Coward]

Without France there wouldn't be an USA, just a greater Britain.


Then whose lap dog would Great Britain be? It seem that France saved the world from being swallowed by a paradox.

Thanks France!
(but the short guy with the Napoleon complex was a real drag)

Why is it taking 24 hours?

[zukinux]

The only difference is the subtitle I guess, and it wouldn't be a problem to take the english subtitles and translate them to french, or even create the damn subtitles, in 4 hours, tops!.

Re:Why is it taking 24 hours?

[Beretta Vexe]

Geek don't eat, don't sleep and don't have social liffe. Regular worker are submit to the 6-7 hours lag between France and USA. Most of the regular French pirates don't care about subtitle anyway.

Re:Why is it taking 24 hours?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not even that, they can have the subtitles ready before they air the show, I'm pretty sure they don't film it as it is being aired ;)

I applaud this

[goldcd]

Currently I pay for a 20Gig internet connection, giganews account and newsleacher subscription. Why? Well so I can watch the TV shows I want (from the UK) immediately after broadcast.
Now if I had a legitimate way of watching the same, for maybe a couple of dollars a show, I'd take that.
With music I get a bit arsey over DRM - if I've paid for an album, I'd like to be able to listen to it on whateve I want until the end of time. For TV shows, I'm more flexible.

still more than 1.5 million pirated downloads?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well of course, maybe this will teach a lesson to whoever decided it was a good idea to wait in order to show something somewhere else. VOD is a great idea, but there is no option for me where I live.

I can, however, download the HD recordings of the show a couple of hours after it airs from some torrent site. Usually they also come without the commercials.

Don't they think I would rather just watch it on TV?

I'm pretty sure if these piracy groups can deliver worldwide hd content a couple of hours after the original airing that these big companies who make the show could most certainly do it as well.

just goes to show quality sells

[timmarhy]

Heroes is a good show, people will pay for it. i reckon of those 1.5million pirate downloads atleast 1/2 would pay $2 an ep. to download it.

that's 1.5million per ep. just in download revenue in just one country. 24 shows to a season, that's the same amount of sales as most movies take at the box office.

Re:just goes to show quality sells

[Vegeta99]

Yeah, but isn't a series a bit longer in duration (and hence costs) than a movie?

Re:just goes to show quality sells

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree that a good proportion of Heroes pirate downloaders would pay for a download service if it was available. Though it needs to be not only available but prompt and reasonably priced. Unfortunately the TV execs don't see such sales as extra revenue. They see them as lost advertising figures or lost DVD sales. Their perception of reality is twisted and perverse.

Re:Typical French behavior.

[Anonymous Coward]

Without France, the U.S. would have just separated from Britain after Canada did.

Re:Typical French behavior.

[Anonymous Coward]

Without France there wouldn't be an USA, just a greater Britain. ALL HAIL BRITANNIA!

Not sure why...

[Archades54]

Not sure why they don't just slap in a few ads, and release it as if you recorded it from tv. I'm sure they'd get SOME profit, even if alot of people skipped the ads. I really don't care if i see ads, just keep them same volume as the show, and i'd gladly watch them on the pc (30-60seconds per break max). Works ok for internet radio :)

Re:Searching isn't the hassle. Waiting for the dl

[empaler]

Asus solved that problem for you. They sell a wifi-router with a built-in torrent client and room for a hard drive. :)

Re:Typical French behavior.

[RobinH]

Canada never separated from Britain entirely. It gained self-governance in 1867 when the British North America Act was passed in the British parliament, and rewrote its own constitution in 1982. Queen Elizabeth II is still Canada's official head of state. At least for a little while longer.

NBC is already offering

[Anonymous Coward]

nbc offers many of its most popular shows for streaming from nbc.com
for heroes the url is http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/video/episodes.shtml/

Huh???

[IonOtter]

France has internet?