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Corporate Encouragement For Sharing Your WiFi
anagama writes "Conventional wisdom is that one should lockdown wifi, your ISP doesn't want you to share your connection, that person checking email outside the coffee shop ought to be arrested. The UK ISP BT is offering an alternative model. The company will encourage its three million broadband users to pick up a FON router and start sharing signals. 'For BT, the move makes its broadband offering more useful to customers, who can access the Internet from more places, and BT doesn't need to build out a new wireless network itself. BT's Gavin Patterson, a managing director, holds out hopes that the FON scheme can someday "cover every street in Britain." "We are giving our millions of Total Broadband customers a choice and an opportunity," he added in a statement. "If they are prepared to securely share a little of their broadband, they can share the broadband at hundreds of thousands of FON and BT Openzone hotspots today, without paying a penny." '"
...but will BT pay for it?
The only way i see this working would be if organizations were compensated for sharing. Not just "encouraged". It'd be nice to put some of the excess on our fiber circuits to good use.
From the article, FON is charging the extra users. It's extra revenue for them. The extra users aren't getting on for free.
...first post!
Do we block this guy from ever being able to concievably post again? Or how can we delete these posts that nobody has any interest whatsoever in reading?
I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
Uh... security anyone?
If you can read this... 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 00100000 01100111 01100101 01100101 01101011
I think the point is not to get on for free, but to get on from anywhere they happen to be standing. If you share yours, and they share theirs, FON can make lots of money by having access points everywhere without paying a penny, and call it 'sharing' with each other.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
This is a very cool solution that has been proposed by many community based wifi projects. That BT would endorse an organic approach like this is very open minded. Let's hope that internal politics doesn't commit this idea to the "let's outsource this for study" meeting whores, effectively shelving it.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
I can think of no simpler way to implement a city-wide free wifi system than a grassroots method such as this. Not only is the up front cost relatively inexpensive per user, it's distributed across thousands of people who can take part if/when they see fit, and it's much easier for individual people to maintain than a central authority.
Not only that, you would have the redundancy of having multiple choices of APs in a given area, so if one goes down for whatever reason, you can still choose another.
It's almost like the equivalent of swarm intelligence, but applied to wifi.
damned bleeding heart pirate and crime promoters, these telcos, how dare they muddy the waters of evidence-gathering against all those copyright-thieving artist-income-depriving file-sharing child-porn distributing criminals?
Some providers in the US also try/tried that, starting as early as 2003, and usually hoping that non-customers would pay $$ to access their network through such user-provided "open" wi-fi APs. I don't think this worked overly well so far though...
http://www.sonic.net/hotspots/
http://www.speakeasy.net/netshare/learnmore/
I don't guess plausible deniability is a problem in Great Britain. They can prove their charges simply by showing a lack of other suspects in the vicinity on video since cameras are ubiquitous. No people around? You're guilty. Sometimes they don't even have trials, they just shoot suspects. I wouldn't step foot in that Nazi police state if you paid me.
Quite an astounding suggestion bearing in mind it's coming from BT. It seems to make good sense to me.
Other "Foneros" can access the public channel for free, while non-Foneros can pay a few dollars a day to use the access points.
"If they are prepared to securely share a little of their broadband, they can share the broadband at hundreds of thousands of FON and BT Openzone hotspots today, without paying a penny."
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
makes me think there should be a catch. what if your line eventually became saturated by the traffic from the wifi router (if you are located in some popular place), wouldn't you think of upgrading your connection plan?
firstly, what the hell are you talking about? plausible deniability of what?
But what really annoys me about your comment is the shear stupidity of it. Is the UK a nazi-esque state? no. If it were would the media be able to report about when the police did make a bad call and kill an innocent man? would the independent police complaints commission investigate? would it be possible to criticise the government at all?...
So tell me how many death camps does the UK have? I can count... none.
Calling the UK a Nazi state is an insult to all the people who died because of the Nazi regime.
*''I can't believe it's not a hyperlink.''
Must be screaming in pain now.. Even less of a way to determine who downloaded/uploaded something that is *isp sponsored*.
Cool.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
If you're an American, then look very closely at your own system before attacking ours, if you aren't then please, go, research your own country anyway, because there is no government where bad things aren't happening, and instead of sitting on a forum attacking another country's system go away and fix your own first please. We may loose small amounts of freedom, but there are countries where they don't have free schooling, free health care, a minimum wage, support for the unemployed and one of the riches populations in the world. I accept things are getting worse, but I know where we started from. Tell me, if the man you referred to running towards an underground train with a backpack on shortly after severeal suicide bombings had been a suicide bomber too, would you like to explain to the hundreds of casualties, deaths and relatives why the armed police there to protect them didn't shoot? The percentages say, it was better for that man to die than to risk the hundreds, and as a result we also live a more concious society of these incidents which in itself helps protect us.
The problem with this system idea is, under current UK law, if you park your car / walk past a persons home and piggy-back off their Wi-Fi signal, you could be arrested and charged for theft of bandwidth under some weird Communications Act. Now of you have these access points, how would an ordinary (usually incompetent) policeman know it is being used by people not "stealing"? Or someone could put up a logo of the scheme outside a home and then point the police that they are not stealing bandwidth - when they actually are. Who's going to know?
Another hair brained scheme by a communications company and regulator hell-bent on not investing in the infrastructure for a better network and instead trying to get everything on the cheap.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
Wippies in Finland (http://www.wippies.com/) is doing a similar thing. They give a free WiFi box (among other things) to users who operate an access point and share their broadband connection with other Wippies members.
The aim of science is not to open the door to infinite wisdom, but to set a limit to infinite error.
-Bertolt Brecht
You share your bandwidth with someone else and the ISP pockets a little extra money if that someone doesn't happen to be a current customer? Yes, according to the article the other users will be on a different channel, so your service isn't interrupted, but no matter how you look at it you're still splitting your pipe. Also, since this scheme involves a new customer paying for access on your (already paid for) connection why not apply the extra money as a credit on your bill? I'm paying a pretty good chunk on my broadband (Time Warner), but I wouldn't mind this setup if it meant my bill was going to be lower.
God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
You know I've heard of companies with seriously fast connections blasting like a mile of broadband around their building and only giving their employees access to it to encourage them to live within a mile and cut down on commuting time and carbon emmissions. So yeah free broadband wireless for employees who would only use it during not so busy offers when they're not at work because not at work means there's not people working at work to use the connection. Lol it's complicated but basically the traffic thing takes care of itself is what I'm saying. It's way more common to just hook up a partial T1 to employees houses if they live within a mile but wireless is cool too. :D except for the whole open to the public thing which I think is stupid cuz people will just file share on it 24/7
So in other words, this is sort of a green idea too if they do it right
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
You are fucking joking, right?
Percentages, is it? OK. How many people wear backpacks in London? Millions. How many people run for a train? Millions. Of those, how many are suicide bombers? Four so far. So, shoot anyone wearing a backpack who is running for a train, on the off-chance they might be a bomber?
Moreover, despite the initial lies put about by the police, de Menezes was not carrying a bag of any kind. Nor was he wearing a heavy coat.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Whaaaa? How did this get modded insightful?
Fon has three types of users: Linux, Bill, and Alien. If you sign up as a Linux and share your wifi you get free wifi at any other Fon access point.
If you are a Bill you make a bit of money when another Bill or Alien, logs onto your Fon access point. Conversely if you roam onto another Fon AP you are expected to pay at a reduced rate.
An Alien is anyone who is not part of the Fon network. They can still access any Fon AP but they have to pay to do it.
My point is that if you are a "La Fonera" and share your wifi free you get wifi free. Sharing is good.
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Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Talk about the perfect excuse that it wasn't me sharing music over my WiFi router. It was someone else -- and BT make it all possible. Certainly an RIAA nightmare in the making.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
He wasn't wearing a backpack, and he wasn't running. Neither was the train driver, who also had a gun pointed at him, but wasn't executed on the spot like this poor guy.
You don't really know what you're talking about, do you?
Azural - instrumentals
As for shooting suspects, the example you give is over two years old. At the time, it was a huge scandal, and was in the mainstream press for weeks afterwards. How often do the police in your country accidentally shoot an innocent person? If you live in the USA, then you'll find it's a lot more often, helped by the fact that your police are allowed to carry guns on a regular basis.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
The way it works has changed since you last checked. You can now be a Bill - getting paid for people who access your network - and access other FON APs for free.
If internet connectivity were meshed out like this in a widespread manner, could much of the reliance on ISP's be done away with?
Amazing. A telecom with vision. That's completely unheard of over here in the states. The only thing our telecoms can envision is the almighty dollar.
If you had super powers, would you use them for good, or for awesome?
Philosophically the Nazis pretty much sent "greatest happiness to the greatest number" up in smoke. A meaningful post-WWII ethics has to value each individual to be worthy as a morality.
So what happens when one person continually uses your broadband?
Earlier reports said Time-Warner was looking into this.
Time-Warner is NOT doing this any time soon in the major metro area where I live.
Is it doing it where you live?
When you "securely share" your Wifi on this FON service, you are only sharing it with other FON users. It's the "unlimited txt messaging to everyone on our network" scheme brought to wifi.
If you do sign up to the scheme then:
1) with the ever growing list of people getting done for illegal activity, ie downloading mp3s/illegal porn/'hacking' etc., will you be exempt from any charges relating to criminal activity through someone using your router?
2) is the broadband service provided truly unlimited?
I can't see many people in their right minds signing up to such a service if they weren't protected from neighbours doing heavy downloading and the drive-by wifi'ers downloading stuff deemed illegal. Because on one end of the scale I wouldn't want additional charges for bandwidth use or have the speed restricted due to too someone else using it too much, and the other end I wouldn't want to be arrested because someone else used my internet connection through the wifi router for criminal activities.
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Nor was he running - that, too, was a lie.
Amnesty International
look very closely at your own system before attacking ours
My nationality is irrelevant. Just because you can point to another country and say "They're bad too" doesn't make yours any better. That's an appeal to common practice.
Step one is admitting you have a problem. You obviously haven't done that.
i believe well see how much this changed the broadband landscape even if only it forced others to make wifi more available. the FON router splits your broadband so much of the negatives mentioned here dont apply and with future broadband speeds we wont care about sharing a little. i found plenty of private open wifi points in london and new york so i am confident there are enough people out there willing to be part of the FON project. interesting that BT will make it easier to make skype calls on the move
Are you some kind of censorship nazi?
Read some history about your own nation before you claim polly puregood status. And if you want more, there's plenty in the books where those atrocities came from. You don't get to have a rise and fall in empire without massive exploitation of people and general genocide action. How about the opium wars, hmm? How about keeping hess on ice forever, to keep him from blabbing about all the high level plutocrats who supported the rise of the third reich, including a lot of your "royals"? How much do you want really, location of todays camps? Who knows, but you can bet they have them, buried under some military reservation someplace. The english have always had a brutal violent government hiding behind a veneer of false civility. The people there are still called "subjects", that should be clue enough.
If you want something more current, their intelligence "agents" had operatives inside the ira who went along with bombings on their own soil, and kneecappings and so on, accepting collateral damage to further political aims of helping along the big brother terror based police state (the US learned from those actions sad to say). They are also covering up the real events of 7-7 (which was an inside job, most obviously, again, to help bring about a stronger police state, just like 9-11 was in the US).
If you want to read history, start with a sense of neutrality, you'll find most governments are a pack of lying murdering thugs for the most part who use historical revisionism in the schools and media to whitewash their negative points, ie,. mass brainwashing, and sounds like you have fallen for it. Control of the economies and politics of large nations (any nations really) is just too tempting for the psychopaths to ignore. The filthy murdering oily shit floats to the top, they get the power, orders from those sorts float downstream.
Every day, 30'000 children die of stupid little things that could have been easily prevented; I know this in no way makes his family's loss any less, but that's a fact. Another fact is that none of the families of the 30'000 children are offered any sort of apology nor compensation for their loss; more likely, they are themselves dying in the dirt.
Compare that to this: The day after the shooting, the Metropolitan Police identified the victim as Jean Charles de Menezes, and said that he had not been carrying explosives, nor was he connected in any way to the attempted bombings. They issued an apology describing the incident as "a tragedy, and one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."
The de Menezes' family condemned the shooting and rejected the apology. His grandmother said there was "no reason to think he was a terrorist." It was reported that the dead man's family were offered almost £585,000 compensation. While I strongly oppose the British government's stance on human rights and privacy boundaries, these were just frightened little security officers who did wrong. It was not Blackwater.
Btw, Godwin is weeping.
Godwin at T+14. Getting better.
Colin Dean Go a year without DRM
If the security model really works, and my ISP doesn't limit bandwidth, this might work. However, when I'm using my home router, I'd like my packets to get priority over anyone elses. Can the FON router be configured with QOS for my packets?
WiFi sharers should have official legal immunity. What if someone uses a community WiFi signal to do something that attracts the attention of NSA et al? Sharers should coordinate to encourage new laws protecting people who share connections. The owner of a connection should NOT be held liable for the actions of others through their connection that are being done without their knowledge.
You sound upset as if this is some kind of under-handed method destroying all we know and love.
/. recently. Sure, it's not exactly what people are looking for, but it's a step towards a larger infrastructure, I suppose.
In fact, this is potentially an answer to the cost problems in setting up large-scale wireless access that have been featured here on
10/10 mbit for only 270 Danish Kroner. In USD. In GBP.
I could get 20/20 for a little more than twice that, but I won't until I get some more storage space.
If the router didn't cost a fortune compared to how useful this would be for me, I might get three. Given that my awesome boss has given me a mobile 3G modem with near-unlimited data usage, I think I'll manage without, though.
Corporate Encouragement For Sharing Your WiFe?
firstly, what the hell are you talking about? plausible deniability of what?
Come on now Joe, everyone here understands the open wifi defense. "Your honor, my wifi was open. It could have been anybody."
But what really annoys me about your comment is the shear stupidity of it. Is the UK a nazi-esque state?
In free countries, if the police were to tackle, pin, and then shoot a suspect in the back of the head seven times execution style, those police would go to trial and be put away for murder. Did any of those police go to trial for murder? Of course not, the police state ruled there was insufficient evidence for a murder trial. The train driver was there with a gun shoved in his face, so I guess eye witness testimony is insufficient in the UK.
So tell me how many death camps does the UK have? I can count... none.
Nazi Germany didn't have death camps until the last couple of years of the war, when their plans for world domination started to sour. Nobody really knew of them until the war ended.
Calling the UK a Nazi state is an insult to all the people who died because of the Nazi regime.
No, what the UK has become is an insult to all the people who fought and died to protect it from the Nazi regime.
How often do the police in your country accidentally shoot an innocent person?
I don't call tackling, pinning, and then shooting someone seven times execution style in the back of the head "accidental." If you do, that say something truly disturbing about you. To call the incident "accidental" is as profoundly stupid as saying "accidental gang rape." What happened in London was not in any way accidental. A man was murdered in cold blood, by the police, in front of at least one witness, and the state declared "insufficient evidence" for a murder trial. It's a horrendous miscarriage of justice, and YOU are defending it!!
that's one down. Now if we can just get Comcast to go for it ...
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
What makes you think the Nazis were interested in "greatest happiness to the greatest number"? They justified war and genocide on the basis that some people just didn't count as worthy of moral consideration at all, not that suffering was outweighed by an increase in happiness elsewhere.
I have a FON AP and access is free for anyone although they need a FON account to use it.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
I don't understand how someone can share their AP without fear of someone doing something nefarious over their connection. I'd be more willing to participate once there is more precedence over who's going to get busted (not me).
But how about security? Considering hacking through LAN, hacking without leaving any trace, DNS poisoning, packet sniffing, etc etc...
I got that FON adaptor with a Skype phone, and it took me all of 30 seconds to decide not to install it.
:-).
Given the current security climate I'm really not going to give someone a chance to (a) identify where I live and if I'm around (look at their status info on the web - having an access point means you've got kit to steal) and (b) to put a remote controlled listening device on my traffic. The FON adaptor is a small Linux box, and I don't know what it does. Worse, someone else controls it and can flash the thing at any time.
Nope. Not interested in contributing to an 802.11 version of Echelon
Insert
"I don't understand how someone can share their AP without fear of someone doing something nefarious over their connection. I'd be more willing to participate once there is more precedence over who's going to get busted (not me)."
If this were the United States, you would be perfectly safe (theoretically) so long as you comply with the DMCA safe harbor provisions. However, doing that is a pain in the ass. I think you're probably safe anyway, since you're just extending someone else's network and they are still responsible for access control and so on.
However, there is certainly a risk that you might have to fend off a lawsuit regardless of how clear it is that you are in the right. I wonder if BT is going to assume that risk on behalf of their customers. Seems like it would make sense since they already assume this risk for the access they extend to these same people.
Why do we need a teloco to allow us to do this? DIY is always better.
Money is the root of all evil?
that I'm sure Verizon will be all over it.
Would someone notify company officials that I have commenced holding my breath?
Congratulations! You got his point!
Are those actually the names they use? That's great.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Sure, some ISP's may have tried it, but the exact same network is available in the US. I've used it several times, each time as a paying customer. Loved it. If I lived in an urban area, I'd share my connection, as well.
I don't respond to AC's.
this gets modded down before the OP... wtf?! *prepares for his own mod-down*
Psh, 10mbit. I have gigabit to the world for only $20k a year. Ahh... Internet2 :p
Am I the only one that doesn't want other, unknown pc's on my network?
I mean, one of the nice aspects of having NAT and a "firewall" is additional security on your network. Now we are expected to let strangers with god knows what on their PC's connect to our networks and poke at our "special" ports.
I for one don't share my special ports with just anyone.
Of course for the really paranoid you can put a nat between your wifi router and the rest of your network, but that just seems to be a bit much.
Linus, not Linux.
Otherwise yes, they do.
It's like communism, but the good kind
So, we'll be starving millions of Ukrainians to death then,
And having children shoot their parents in the head,
And killing anyone with glasses?
And, the New York Times will be covering it up and winning Pulitzer Prizes for doing so?
I knew I'd read something about the FON network before, The Register covered a story about FON users protesting about anyone being able to have 15 minutes of free access through their router without having to sign up to the service:
June 29 2007 - Fon VoIP network being disrupted by protest over Wi-Fi adverts
And there's still a heap of wifi users who have hidden their router in a lake
To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.
Such a good idea. The few dollars a day for non subscribers as well. Wifi is incredibly unreasonably priced. I'd love to have Internet at the airport but I just looked up a couple of the local competitors. Rogers offers 15 cents a minute or ninety minutes per month for $4 (10 cents a minute after that). That's if you're already a cell subscriber with them.
Whoa- I want a boss like that.
OSx86 FTW
I'm posting this through SF's small-but-growing grassroots WiFi project called Free The Net. It's a venture headed up by Meraki, a company that makes access points for WiFi-meshing purposes. As far as I understand, all bandwidth is provided by AT&T. Meraki sets up the main APs, and then asks users who can see the signal to set up a repeater somewhere, such as outside their house or on a street-facing window. The repeaters and APs discover the network and can automatically provide redundancy if at all possible. If you're living in the right neighborhoods, it works pretty well. Best part vs. the method mentioned in the article: everything is free. No ports are closed, no traffic denied. Downside: There's a frame at the top of your browser which links to news articles (why? are they getting revenue through it?), although I'm sure it could easily be hacked around. Other downside: the ISP is AT&T.
I know people are probably familiar with the Google/Earthlink deal falling through in SF, but this somewhat unknown project is taking off; so far, I'm pretty impressed.
Actually,Here in the US I'd be more worried about someone surfing kiddie porn on your connection,which gets YOU hauled off in cuffs,your computers seized and ripped apart,and three years worth of trials trying to prove your innocent.After all,anything to do "with the children" here = guilty until proven innocent. McMartin,anyone?
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
Here in the UK it's pretty much the same, if not worse. Google for Operation ORE to see why it's probably worse here. Hell, we had mobs roaming the streets attacking paediatricians not so long ago.
If you can read this you've gone too far.
There is a risk in this. What are the chances of being able to use these FON routers to set up a mesh network? My guess would be nil. What BT may be hoping will happen is that everyone gets hooked on their wireless, and ends up forced to use their tubes to get it. The dream of wireless everywhere is that it makes telcos obsolete for the last mile segment of the network, i.e. it removes their market stranglehold. This could be BT trying to pre-empt a Google+700MHz band style thing happening in the UK.
If you can read this you've gone too far.
"Lockdown" isn't a verb. Come on... Spelling matters.
Actually, McMartin was 20 years ago. These days it's "guilty even after proven innocent" (you'll just be "released on a technicality" and somehow manage to accidentally slip and fall into a noose your neighbors hung from a tree in your front yard).
Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
well, FON is *not grassroots, they are neither open nor free. they distribute their routers totally locked down. "pah", the average customer thinks," that won't affect me". only that it does.
see, FON wants *me* to pay *them* for access to *my neighbour's* wireless. when i asked him to open his AP, he said he couldn't, because if he installed openWRT (or another open firmware) he wouldn't get the benefits FON offers (i never knew if he used them actually).
also, technically FON requires a direct internet connection. urban wifi would be much more likely to succeed, if they used mesh network strategies (what would mean with even only 20% of APs actually connected to the net, traffic is) like the german freifunk project does. hell, freifunk developers even create new routing protocols. if you wanna see what openWRT and freifunk devs are making possible, check this graph [1] from the german city of leipzig.
i just cannot see why technical people are falling for this FON scam (other than plain ignorance, of course).
[1] http://leipzig.freifunk.net/
Irritating Europhobic Danes.
How much is that in real money then?
Hey! How do you get the cute link without the [google.com] shit?
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Wah :-p
I'm used to buying stuff from UK and US, I don't even think of Euro (hardly ever purchase anything from Euro-bearing countries - seldomly from Germany.
The [google.com]-shit is something you set in your User Preferences, under Comments. It only changes your own display settings.
Display Link Domains? (shows the actual domain of any link in brackets)
[ ] Never show link domains
[ ] Show the links domain only in recommended situations
[ ] Always show link domains
FON has nothing to do with BT, it's a separate service that anyone can sign up for. It's pretty popular, I have two FON access points within range of my apartment, and I've used it once when my broadband was down. They charge 10 Euros for five 1 hour passes if you don't have a FON router. (if you have one, it's free)
Fonero teamed up with Neuf Telecom to do more or less the same deal.
http://blog.fon.com/en/archive/business/fon-and-neuf-cegetel-begin-rollout-of-new-joint-service.html
Watch this Heartland Institute video
Yeah, but I have "always show link domains" and I didn't see 'em on your two links to google. Weird.
Now they're back again - looks like a slashdot glitch.
Watch this Heartland Institute video
The Jehovah Witnesses are as guilty as the Jews, they both abhor the use of blood in their workship.
Leslie Satenstein Montreal Quebec Canada
As I understood it, the police lied about him running from them, and about him having jumped the ticket barrier (he paid with his Oyster card like anyone else), but he did run once he reached the platform and saw the train there.
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
And on topic,is the EU company trying to get everyone to open up their WiFi going to indemnify them if some perv surfs kiddie porn on your connection? If they don't give you some kind of protection in writing you'd have to be insane to take the deal. I don't care if they do offer a share of the profits or the ability to surf anywhere,it's not worth sitting at home wondering if today is the day the cops kick in your door for what some guy did with your connection last month. It is just too damn hard to defend yourself against those kinds of charges in this day and age. And as the previous poster said,if you did prove yourself innocent everyone around you would just believe you "got off on a technicality". It is like no one believes innocent folks can be wrongly accused anymore.
ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
The Jehovah Witnesses don't manipulate finances, gain control over large swaths of industry, and manipulate world governments to their benefit, now do they?
Go crawl in a hole, smelly Jew.