eBay Sellers Seething Over Targeted Ads

hoagiecat writes "eBay isn't just an enormous auction site; it's also a publisher of Google and Yahoo targeted ads, which earn eBay money every time a user clicks on them. But those clicks take users to a new page, and lead them away from the auctions — and those who make their living from those auctions are starting to get upset. Is eBay doing the right thing to make some extra cash from the hot advertising market? Or are they cannibalizing their income and hurting the sellers who have been the backbone of their business?"

Comments

It isnt' a simple question

[fyngyrz]

Here's how I see it, as a long time EBay user — almost since day one. EBay has a huge problem: They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits. This means that no matter how good a model they have — and make no mistake, initially, they had an excellent model — they have to continue to tweak it and push it in search of new and increased income.

Inevitably, this has lead into areas where the original "goodness" of the model is reduced. As long as profits keep rising, this isn't going to be a sensitive point for EBay, and unfortunately for the current crop of EBay users at any one time, this means that the things they liked about EBay are quite likely to evolve into something else.

A website like EBay will never be well served by the "we must make MORE profit" model. The best (IMHO) model is one of a software package that never removes or changes a previously existing feature, or moves it. Instead, they add new features, and generally speaking, these are added in ways that don't disturb access to the old features. In this way, the comfort zone of the existing user base is maintained, while the product remains able to grow.

EBay violates this process constantly, from changing the actual usability of the site, the features available, the rules that underly the selling and buying process, the operation (and therefore validity) of the reputation system, the ability for, and encouragement of, users to communicate with one another directly (without EBay acting as an intermediary), by acting as a mommy figure for various types of transactions it considers immoral, by moving and essentially hiding functionality, by being subsumed by the IRS into a monitoring venue for taxation (not much choice there, in that case, success brought on the problem and you can always count on our legislators to mine everything they can think of for income), by loading the pages with ads, by implementing no-click / not requested by the user pop-up technologies, by consistently escalating fees, by changing developer API's rather than extending them, and so on and so forth.

From where I sit, EBay was a great idea that has come and gone. When it started, I used it constantly. Today, I rarely buy, and I am even less likely to sell. It isn't a financial issue; I am well able to participate. It is a sense that the site simply isn't what it used to be, a friendly, open confluence of people all over the country. It just feels like a big, cold commercial operation to me. And I can get that feeling at Wal-Mart.

The answer to the question of if EBay is doing "the right thing" with regard to advertising varies in a polar manner depending on what you're looking at. From the stockholder perspective, the question is simply, does it result in increased income, and surely the answer will be yes. From the user perspective, the question is, does it result in increased usability and the ability to get done what one goes to the site to get done — and I think the answer to that is just as surely a resounding no. But EBay is a company; you know as well as I do what drives them, and it isn't the end user's general feelings of disaffection. They have a continuous supply of new users who have no sense of what the site used to be like, who simply want to "sell stuff", and that'll no doubt fill the holes left by those who brought the site its previous success.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[kenf]

So, what will be the next thing to take eBay's place?

I remember other auction sites years ago, that were put out of business when eBay came along and did it better.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Anonymous Coward]

eBay needs to find some way to recoupe the costs they are going to incur for all their security breaches...

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[op12]

It is a sense that the site simply isn't what it used to be, a friendly, open confluence of people all over the country. It just feels like a big, cold commercial operation to me. And I can get that feeling at Wal-Mart.

I think that feeling comes from the fact that you can't search anything without getting a ton of results from stores setup specifically to sell on eBay. There used to just be a handful of these results and then the rest were individuals, but nowadays you just get tons of powersellers and not a lot of the individuals.

That and I think it has become an increasing problem of people getting defrauded and scammed that has caused people to lose faith in the system. You can find hundreds of eBay and Paypal horror stories on people receiving empty boxes, boxes with other things inside, unable to cancel fradulent transactions without jumping through hoops, etc.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Aladrin]

The WalMart reference is apt, since you have the same basic reason to shop there: It's cheaper and/or they have things nobody else does. (The latter reason applies to all stores, though.)

I only buy on EBay when I can get the item at a significant discount, or I can't find the item at any reputable dealer. At that point, it's worth the potential hassle of having to complain to get your product or money back. And if I get my money back, I -still- have to go find a seller for the product.

It has to be significantly cheaper because of the time I have ot invest for every item I buy on EBay. After having an issue with a seller (who eventually DID send the phone, but with a picture of himself flicking me a bird and scratches) I now have to do more than just glance at the seller's rep. I -always- read through their negative feedback and see if A) it was deserved B) if they responded and C) if the response was friendly and correct.

On top of that, I have to be careful to read the auction several times to make sure it isn't a cardboard cutout of item X or a display model or damaged, and that the item is exactly the same as I have been researching elsewhere. Model numbers, part numbers, clones... Most auctions provide all the info, but you have to be very careful not to assume anything. Yes, I got burned on that once, too. I admitted my mistake and whatever the item turned out to be (I've forgotten since it was only a few dollars) is in a box somewhere.

Returns! They cost money on EBay. The seller isn't going to pay to have it shipped back, that's your money that's going to disappear. In some cases, that might cost as much as the product did. Driving to WalMart costs gas, but not nearly so much as shipping something back to China.

I still use EBay, but since the prices are generally not significantly less than retail any more, I mainly use it for items that aren't sold at any store that I recognize as reputable. Things like European phones (because they don't need to be unlocked), odd video game accessories (Why doesn't Nintendo sell a charging cradle for the ds lite?) and other such things.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[speaker of the truth]

You can find hundreds of eBay and Paypal horror stories on people receiving empty boxes, boxes with other things inside, unable to cancel fradulent transactions without jumping through hoops, etc. This is why I only buy from a handful of sites (Amazon, Fictionwise). I simply don't trust the internet enough to buy from too many sources, and I've never bought from Ebay. Not only do I prefer to buy stuff for slightly more money and possibly much better condition, you never know when someone will send you a bad product.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[olddotter]

If you believe that Google links on ebay will take buys away from the auctions, then this is a bad move for both Ebay and their sellers. Ebay makes more money from an auction closing with a winning bid than they are going to get from Google ads.

If the ads cut sells, then Ebay will lose more money than they gain.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[oliderid]

From the stockholder perspective, the question is simply, does it result in increased income, and surely the answer will be yes.

It really depends of the stockholder you are. If you are merely speculating then yes, it doesk make sense. If you are investing in Ebay as a long term stockholder...They are destroying values. They are alienating their core customers : pro/semi pro resellers.

If I sell a Nokia mobile phone, I do want to be alone selling it on my product's page. Can you imagine an competitor's advertisement in your own store?

This isn't the first time Ebay makes a big mistake, just remember skype and how far away it was from their core business.

Ebay is ran by financial people. it looks to me that they have no clues about what a customer is and how to respond to his/her need. All they can understand is "easy money". Usually such companies don't exist for long.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[vertinox]

Here's how I see it, as a long time EBay user -- almost since day one. EBay has a huge problem: They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits. This means that no matter how good a model they have -- and make no mistake, initially, they had an excellent model -- they have to continue to tweak it and push it in search of new and increased income.

Thats the problem with the public company system. In so much they can't see the forest for the trees and simply destroy a good business model in search of more profit.

The key problem is the the corporate culture pays people to find ways constantly improve rather than attempt to find a status quo in which long term gains are prized over short term.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[maxume]

I like to think of it in terms of "The problem with eBay is that it works". That is, it is a fairly well functioning market, so you end up paying market price, so the only reason to go there is the selection, not the auction format. The sooner they realize this and make it a much friendlier experience for casual participants(so, they need to eradicate fraud, not pretend it isn't a problem), the better.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[RoverDaddy]

Well, for small things I'm really not trying to make a lot of money on, perhaps I'd rather just use freecycle and give the stuff away. If I get a few useful items from other freecyclers, it all works out in the end. No commission to eBay, no tax liability to the IRS. That leaves eBay to the 'professional' sellers trying to make an actual cash profit.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[AK Marc]

That makes me think of search terms I want. I only want to see things from people who have been members for more than a year and average less than one sale per day (or one sale a week, or whatever). Don't give me the places that sell 10,000 cell phone covers that also sell the charger I want. Just give me the links to people that are people. I have found that stores are easier to do returns with (based on conversations with people doing returns with people and stores), but I've never had to do a return with a actual human. Individuals don't buy 500+ games from an auction and sell them individually when many are scratched-up former rentals (and if they did, they'd not show up in my search). The individuals played the game and are selling it in a working condition. Stores are better at resolving problems because they are used to causing problems.

Oh, and I'd end the feedback blackmail. Count all non-feedback as neutral. But if I'm a buyer and I get screwed, I have the choice of giving bad feedback to warn others (in which case I get retalatory bad feedback, no matter what I did), leaving no feeedback and getting no feedback, or leaving positive feedback and getting posiive feedback. I have no option to leave negative feedback without getting penalized. Though, I haven't had a transaction since the new non-feedback comments can be left.

It is features like that so skewed to protect the sellers and screw the buyer that it's no longer a site I would buy from if I can find the item anywhere else. And they push paypal, and paypal sucks worse.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[ivan256]

They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits.

That's not technically true. They could pay dividends on their stock to make the value of the stock the payout of dividends, rather than increasing stock price...

Or they could use their profits to gradually buy back their stock, since they have accomplished what they wanted to with the investment capital to the mutual benefit of the company and the investors.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[miskatonic alumnus]

I don't go to Ebay to save $1 on something I can buy at Target or Amazon. I go there to buy things that aren't for sale locally or online. There's no other realistic choice if I want those things.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[hansamurai]

boxes with other things inside http://www.xkcd.com/325/

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[that IT girl]

I'm not a business major nor do I ever want to work for a large corporation, but what I do not understand is why profits constantly have to be rising. As long as they're not falling, why does it matter? You can only go so high, that just makes sense. If you're pulling in a consistent but steady profit, what is the problem? Why does it always have to be more? Is it just pure greed?

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[ivan256]

That's why you invest in something, presumably... You put in money in hopes that the use of your money will increase the value of whatever it is you invested in.

Continued growth is simply a means to justify failure to return the profits of the corporation to the shareholders. The profits belong to the shareholders, and if the company doesn't pay them out, it's essentially the same as all the shareholders are pumping more cash into the company. People rightly expect a return on that additional investment, hence the expectation of continually growing profits.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[ivan256]

Dear lord, somebody call the grammar police on me. Let's try that again:

The profits belong to the shareholders. If the company doesn't pay the profits out to the investors as dividends, the investors have essentially been forced to re-invest their share of the profits into the company. Investors rightly expect a return on their additional investment, hence the expectation of continually growing profits.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Anonymous Coward]

I couldn't agree more about the 'old' ebay vs. the current ebay. I used it extensively to completed my collection of a 70s-era professional camera system. But that's not all. Sometimes I wandered and the trip was always exciting. It was like a garage sale that only had stuff you in which you were interested. Descriptions often were like mini stories. A couple of times I bid on items just because the back story was interesting. Every once in a while, I visit, but it's not the same. It seems that no matter what I search for, there are 1,000 crappy (new) items for every genuinely interesting item. It's just not worth my time anymore.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[noidentity]

For my first eBay purchase ever several months ago I left neutral feedback (seller used different shipping than claimed) and STILL got negative feedback in return. And try summarizing things in 80 characters. Craigslist is so much better, and local.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[RobBebop]

And they push paypal, and paypal sucks worse.

Can I ask why you think PayPal sucks, and if there is an easier/better way to process transactions online from a seller's perspective?

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[AK Marc]

Can I ask why you think PayPal sucks, and if there is an easier/better way to process transactions online from a seller's perspective?

From a seller's perspective? What part of my post made it sound like I cared one lick what a seller thought? However, since you ask, the majority of items sold on ebay are sold through shops that would pay less in fees if they directly accepted credit cards. However, the terms of paypal are more likely to screw the buyer than being an actual merchant, so there is no real incentive. Those shops that sell the majority of items on ebay should be accepting credit cards directly. I have set up more than one merchant account myself, and the fees can be quite reasonable for people with home businesses, unless they are looking to screw over their customers, in which case they should stick with paypal.

paypal encourages direct withdrawls from bank accounts. If you don't list a bank account, you can't be verified. If you aren't verified, there are places that won't let you buy from them. If you list a bank account, paypal will allways try to take from your bank account first. If you change it, they tell you that you are stupid and should take it from your bank account directly. However, if you order something and it never comes, paypal will never refund your money. If it came from your bank account, then it is gone forever. Your only solution is to sue paypal and the seller. I've had to issue 3 chargebacks for paypal transactions. I sent a money order for $18,000 to a guy I'd never seen or spoken with to buy a car I'd never seen and I felt more comfortable with that than any paypal transaction I've ever done. The only time I've ever had items not show up is from people that accepted paypal only, and in all cases, paypal asked that I prove I never received the item. What the hell is that? I can't prove I didn't get something. So, a call to the credit card company, tell them I never got the item associated with that charge, and poof, all my money is back in my account.

And that doesn't take into account paypal stealing from people by locking down accounts and not issuing checks, or the fact that they illegally act as a bank without following the banking rules. They know that sellers dictate payment methods, so they help the sellers, even if it screws the buyers, so all buyers should avoid paypal when they can. Sellers who do a few thousand a year in transactions would save money with a real merchant account with a real bank, so the ones that size that use paypal are either too stupid to run a credit card themselves, or trying to fuck me over when I buy from them. If you don't do enough business to justify a real merchant account, go find a real escro agency. They are out there, and they can be even less than paypal. paypal isn't cheap, it's just well known and good to sellers.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[kklein]

Indeed. I just sold some stuff after a 2-year hiatus and I made a bunch of mistakes setting things up because so many rules had changed. It really pissed me off.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[XHIIHIIHX]

Let me guess, you're one of those users that leaves a neutral without even contacting the seller about your problem first. You don't realize that your neutral becomes part of their permenant history, and that they would certainly have worked with you to resolve any reasonable problem that you have. Like refunding you 45 cents difference in the shipping costs. Now I remember why I don't sell on ebay anymore.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent makes an excellent point. If you use eBay as a place to save a dollar here and there (the way that many people use, successfully in this case, Amazon)... you will likely end up very disappointed. Rather, eBay truly shines when you can buy (or sell) items for which there is little to no local market. Don't go to eBay looking to save $1.50 on some cookware. Go to eBay to find that 1961 Topps HARRY ANDERSON trading card you've always wanted. Good luck finding that at Walmart! On eBay it sold for $0.95... which could be a total rip-off or a phenomenal deal, I have no idea... but I guarantee that eBay was essentially the only way for that buyer and that seller to ever find each other.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Anonymous Coward]

Excellent, insightful comments.

I hope eBay is reading.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[umbra_dweller]

If I buy stock in a company selling at $10 per share, and if they continue to make the same profit year after year, then my share price will never go up very much and if I sell the stock I will only have the original $10 I invested with no gain - I might as well have put it in a savings account and received a small but consistent interest payment, or bought gold and buried it in my backyard /jk. Thus if a company cannot raise profits over time, investors will leave and seek other, faster growing companies.

It's not greed on the part of the executives (necessarily) it's the collective "greed" of the entire investment community, because there is always someone out there that wants to use their money to make more money, it's the whole point of a public stock market, to attract new investment with the promise of future pay-off.

The other option that I hadn't really understood until other posters pointed it out is that corporations with steady profits and no room to grow can take those profits and divide them among investors, attracting people with direct payments instead of their stock price. It's an interesting idea, but I don't really know what goes into making that decision or what the costs/benefits are from the company's perspective.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[WNight]

You're one of those asses who expects people to jump through forty-three special hoops just so you get to maintain spotless reputation for your less-than-spotless business. Hell no.

If you owe $.45 and I need to contact you, that's not positive. At best it's neutral, likely it's oppressive and negative. If you take care of everything and there aren't problems, that's when you get positive feedback.

Fuck, EBay sellers have the biggest sense of entitlement.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[mgblst]

Ebay have also made a lot of good changes recently. The more detailed feedback, showing the price of the item sold or bought has been great. Also extra anonymous feedback on delivery times and such. The finally added a little javascript so that when you choose to watch an item, it doesn't have to reload the page. That must have saved them about 20 servers or so.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[that IT girl]

Thank you very much for the explanation. If I had mod points I'd give you a +1 Informative. :)

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[XHIIHIIHX]

OMG Clayten a picture is so worth 10000s of words, this is totally my image of a reasonable ebay buyer http://www.kelora.org/images/2002-05-18%20-%20Reception/?view=Clayten%20and%20Tammie%20-%20Cutting%20Cake%2002.JPG

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[WNight]

You're my image of a lying, misdirecting ebay scammer. Whining about honest feedback. You probably leave retaliatory feedback over anything less than AA++++!!!1! feedback too, regardless of how you deserve whatever was said about you.

Have no fear, you'll never run into me on ebay.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[noidentity]

I DID contact the seller first, and he gave me some bullshit story about cheaper shipping or something. I checked the shipping sites and that was definitely not the case. I gave them a shot but they treated me like an idiot, so I left neutral feedback (which means neither positive nor negative) with a factual statement that they changed shipping company after I paid, and the item arrived in a few days and worked fine. The only conclusion I can draw is that feedback is not for characterizing my experience, that there is a certain feedback I'm supposed to leave and if I don't, I get negative feedback for it.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's nice that ebay offers all those shipping options, but unfortunately it doesn't make it to paypal and so the only way you can figure out what shipping option the user chose is to look it up on ebay or work backwards from the price. If the item arrived on time and wasn't damaged, why would you care what carrier was used? I might use golden state overnight, and that certainly isn't one of the ebay dropdowns.

Re:It isnt' a simple question

[noidentity]

"If the item arrived on time and wasn't damaged, why would you care what carrier was used? I might use golden state overnight, and that certainly isn't one of the ebay dropdowns."

If the seller claims that I have a choice of carrier (where one is $5 cheaper than the other), but then chooses the cheaper one when I chose the expensive (faster) one, I do care. If the seller really is just going to ship it to me in a few days with whatever carrier he wants, fine, he just needs to state this clearly in the terms. Hell, if a seller wanted to ship me something by carrier pigeons, I wouldn't mind, as long as it were stated up-front.

All surfaces and links will become advertising.

[Gary W. Longsine]

Even the insides of your eyelids. Chu Chi has seen it. It must be done.

Re:All surfaces and links will become advertising.

[An ominous Cow art]

There's nothing so good that it can't be ruined by advertising.

Re:All surfaces and links will become advertising.

[Linker3000]

We need to keep an eye on this to ensure that the practice doesn't spread to other sites. It could make browsing very annoying.

Re:All surfaces and links will become advertising.

[no1nose]

Agreed. Advertising can ruin anything.

I was wondering what would happen if everyone on the net clicked on an Adsense ad whenever they saw one (and obviously not look at the resulting page). Would enough "invalid" clicks be generated to render web ads useless? Or would Google's profits just go through the roof?

It doesn't take much to click on an Adsense link, just hit the middle mouse button to open the ad in a new tab. Then hit the tab with the middle mouse button to close it...

Bad analogy

[T-Bone-T]

Is this anything like a shopping mall advertising its stores inside of its other stores, a la Dillard's jewelry ads in the JC Penny jewelry section?

Re:Bad analogy

[mabhatter654]

that's exactly what it's like. The seller pays for that page as their "space" on ebay. Adding targeted ads for the same product is exactly what you describe above.

target="_blank"

[Scrameustache]

Open in new tab.

Problem solved!
eBay, feel free to send me a few millions as a reward. KTHXbye.

Re:target="_blank"

[davidsyes]

Seriously, though, eBay should modify the page so that the ad is popped up AFTER the user submits a bid, or if the user decides not to bid, then present the ad. Maybe these ads should be triggered or presented only AFTER the bidder/prospective bidder drills down to a certain depth in the bid. Ad sponsors won't like it, but hey, this DO have placement, which they might not have had previously. So, they still get their "impressions" made.

But, the UI should first tell the bidder/prospective bidder that a number of related adverts will appear after they go through with the bid or back out of the bid.

However, on the chance that the ads won't produce sales, maybe a *tiny* fraction of sales from auctions and other ad conversions should prop up the remaining ads placements. eBay may have already considered this, but something more balancing and less intrusive/obtrusive should be presented.

BTW, I wonder if the page changes will happen in Hyderbad or Bangalore, or San Jose/First Street/Bascom Avenue

Re:target="_blank"

[Kamineko]

Suddenly, there was crash of thunder... a moment of intense brightness and then everything became dark.

Moments passed, and a bright red spotlight slowly illuminated around the silhouette of a tall man, his wide, malevolent grin visible in the intense light.

"You fool!" he boomed, "You had your chance. But now... haha... it is too late."

Scrameustache awoke, screaming. "What a nightmare!" Scrameustache mumbled, slowly getting out of bed, kicking over a couple of old pizza boxes discarded beside. There was a noise at the door; the paper had just been delivered. Scrameustache groaned and dragged themself to the door, and picked up the newly delivered paper.

Scrameustache's tired eyes scanned the paper for the comics section when they fell upon the front of the paper... Scrameustache froze, and let out a terrifying wail... They sank to the floor, banging their fists against the front door in despair.

The paper fell to the floor, the bold headline face up for all to see. "target="_blank" Successfully Patented by eBay"

Re:target="_blank"

[Anonymous Coward]

Make sure you've not violated some patents, though. "One click" for a company to earn money has been patented for sure.

middle click.

[v_1_r_u_5]

it's called middle-click. ff and ie both support it. middle-click the ad and it opens in a new tab. you can view it when you want to view it and focus on the task at hand.

Re:middle click.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, sweet little retard, the point is that Joe fucking Public doesn't middle-click. The auctioners are concerned about Joe fucking Public, not themselves.
PS. Your userid is 1_3_3_+ , and your mother's a whore.

Re:middle click.

[The_Chicken_205]

That's an end-user solution - something that the seller/eBay cannot control - which I think is what the article is about.

People who left-click an advert are navigated away from the seller's page which could result in a lost purchase.

Re:middle click.

[v_1_r_u_5]

your mother's a whore

my mother's dead, you insensitive clod

Re:middle click.

[Anonymous Coward]

target="annoying_new_window"

Re:middle click.

[TheRaven64]

Off-topic, but this is the reason I never click on flash ads. Since flash does not respect command-click to open in a new tab, I never know where the link will open, and so I simply don't click. While I occasionally click on plain text ads to see if they are actually offering a good deal, flash ones are simply ignored.

Re:middle click.

[Anonymous Coward]

my mother's dead, you insensitive clod Necrophiliacs need love too, you insensitive clod.

You can disable it in user preferences!

[kad77]

I just added a new eBay account last night, and when setting my user preferences I noticed two settings for targeted ads from ebay. I opted out of each option in one second.

Sorry to hear this is bothering multitudes of people --- but it is REALLY SIMPLE to disable.

This is a PEBKAC problem with eBay options.

Re:You can disable it in user preferences!

[arivanov]

Err... For whom? For the seller or for the buyer?

Re:You can disable it in user preferences!

[argmanah]

I just added a new eBay account last night, and when setting my user preferences I noticed two settings for targeted ads from ebay. I opted out of each option in one second. Sorry to hear this is bothering multitudes of people --- but it is REALLY SIMPLE to disable. You missed the point. The sellers are complaining that by default, this stuff is turned on for the people buying, taking away their business. They aren't bothered by the fact that the ads are on their screen, they are bothered by the fact that the ads hurt business, and since they are paying e-bay to serve as their conduit, e-bay's actions create a conflict of interest.

Auctions?

[Waffle Iron]

But those clicks take users to a new page, and lead them away from the auctions

Auctions? eBay still has auctions?

Maybe, but only if you consider (Reserved Price = $1.99), (Buy It Now ® price = $1.99), (shipping = $17.99) to be an "auction".

Shouldn't have much effect.

[n6kuy]

Who clicks on the ads anyway?
I mean, except for the people who get paid to click the ads.

Re:Shouldn't have much effect.

[speaker of the truth]

I'm finding I'm more inclined to click on ads served locally or served by small ad "companies" that specialize in particular topics. I only ever click on Google Ads by accident.

eBay is a lost cause

[HotBBQ]

It used to be that I could go onto eBay and find a plethora of used computer parts and the like with decent prices. These days it seems eBay consists mostly of store fronts for those "make thousands from your home computer in as little as 5 minutes a day" schemes. I can get mostly the same items at similar prices from Amazon without the hassle. eBay needs to go back to their core business and remove all the fluff.

Re:eBay is a lost cause

[Zephida]

I too fondly remember the good old days of Ebay

Used to be great to find odd items, second hand parts, or things I just couldn't find in the shops.

While there is nothing wroing with stores using e-bay to sell items, I'm sick and tired of all the rubbish auctions

All I find on e-bay these days are
Items with artifically high buyout prices
Items with Insane postage amounts
Scam artists
Stolen Mobile phones and laptops
£0.99 auctions that promise the secrets to free beer, beautiful women, and £1,000,000

You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's get serious here . . . are Ebay users so stupid that they actually click on advertisments?!?

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[Cpt_Kirks]

These tend to be people who will pay more for used items than the item costs new. So, yeah.

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[Captain Hook]

Thats hardly a fair comment. The buyers are looking to buy items at the best price, stands to reason that targetted ads are going to appeal to them and indeed from a buyers point of view, the more sources for an item that they are intrested in the better. It's the sellers who are the ones losing out to targetted ads and it's not like they have a choice to prevent potential buyers from seeing targetted ads.

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[TheRaven64]

They can't be more stupid than eBay when it comes to advertising. A couple of years ago, I tried googling my name and a co-worker's name. For both, there was a sponsored link to eBay with the caption 'buy {name}! Get {name} on eBay!' Sadly, there wasn't one of me on sale, and so I had to finish work for myself.

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[Zerimar]

Recall the riff with Google a few months ago killed a lot of those useless ads.

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[courtarro]

With names like Viagra von Penis Enlarger and Porn McWeight-Loss, you and your coworker should have seen it coming!

Re:You gotta ask the Ebay users.

[rs79]

Google "slaves".

Sometimes you get an ebay ad for them.

This raised a bit of a fuss a while back and they quickly canned it, but ever now and again it comes back. The last time was a few months ago.

Since when has eBay ever cared about sellers?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least, in recent years?

They've been abusing sellers ever since their moat was established.

living

[kurtis25]

I make my living selling my time clicking on eBay ads. These ads keep moving people off my auction page. How am I supposed to do nothing for a living now. In other news these folks just want a cut of the eBay action. p.s. If your livelihood is resting on a single of which you aren't an employee not changing their business model you need a new business model.

Now & Later

[Chmcginn]

The answer to the question of if EBay is doing "the right thing" with regard to advertising varies in a polar manner depending on what you're looking at. From the stockholder perspective, the question is simply, does it result in increased income, and surely the answer will be yes.

But there's two different shareholders perspectives. The long-term & the short-term. While putting more ads might make them more money this quarter, if it truly does alienate users, in the long run, it's going to kill their profits. The new users might not know what it used to be like, but if it doesn't result in sales, it's not going to get used.

Re:Now & Later

[krbvroc1]

But there's two different shareholders perspectives. The long-term & the short-term. IMO, the long-term vision shareholders are a minority in this country so the short-term thinking ones are the ones calling the shots, driving many of the analysts, and overall destroying our capitalist system.

Re:Now & Later

[gstoddart]

But there's two different shareholders perspectives. The long-term & the short-term. While putting more ads might make them more money this quarter, if it truly does alienate users, in the long run, it's going to kill their profits.

You make an excellent point.

However, from what I've been able to see over the last bunch of years ... almost all businesses are looking to maximize profits for this quarter, and they don't have any real clear long-term plan. At least, large, publicly traded companies -- I suspect when the owner still runs the business you see a little longer view.

Executives get their bonuses now, which is what they want. The reality is, IMO, that so many companies do things which clearly haven't considered long-term profits and the value of corporate good will that one wonders if they even pretend to care any more. Certainly, by the time you've off-shored some of your core business, you no longer really control it as much as you once did. In the long run, some companies are losing profits and the ability to compete because they've cannibalized operations in terms of short term gains. But, by the time it becomes apparent, you no longer have the ability to bring it back under your control.

By the time the shareholders of the time (there are no long term investors any more) figure out you have screwed up the company, your options have vested, and your golden parachute has taken effect, and you may be gone.

A very large amount of North American companies have relied on globalization to give themselves improved profits. Now, they find themselves at the mercy of foreign markets (eg China) and absolutely no ability to take back any of their core businesses. They've gutted themselves, they just haven't figured out it was a fatal wound yet. :-P

Cheers

Re:Now & Later

[Chmcginn]

Now, they find themselves at the mercy of foreign markets (eg China) and absolutely no ability to take back any of their core businesses. They've gutted themselves, they just haven't figured out it was a fatal wound yet.

I don't think it's that they can't recover at this point. They would just have to put long-term thinking first for a few years. And that's not going to happen until investors start pushing for long-term over short-term.

It's not a fatal wound - it's just infected, and taking the time out to get it treated is apparently too much effort.

Shouldn't they anticipate.......

[angus_rg]

All's fair in love and war. Nothing they are doing is illegal, and, like all businesses, ebay and those making a living off of it must plan for changes and disaster to come. While, this may or may not be an ethical tactic, it is something that should have been expected since the internet has been evolving into a massive marketing campaign. Not to mention, the sellers still have control of putting together content keeping the user on the page. If I had a nickel for every auction I saw that was a cut an paste generic that keeps the pertinent information for 12 different auctions scattered in obscure places, not only might I have stayed and bought, I'd be rich. You don't have to have a degree in Marketing to see that most sellers are doing a piss poor job.

This begs the question . . .

[LiquidHAL]

when will wee see Gauctions

Re:This begs the question . . .

[ianare]

Right because Google will surely have less ads.

Re:This begs the question . . .

[Oliver Defacszio]

"Gawkshuns"

Yuck.

Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[gurps_npc]

Look not every thins SHOULD be sold by auction.

There are basically two good reasons to go to an auction instead of a regular internet store:

1. The item you desire is hard to find and you can not find a regular internet store that sells it. This is one of the reasons why art and antiques are often sold at auction. Also what happens when a hot toy (Wii, PSP, etc.) comes out in limited quantities. Typically what happens here is that the seller puts in a minimum price, which is often more expensive than a fair price would be if the item was in reasonable supply (see Wii, etc. early sales). Here you are willing to pay more money because you can not find it on a regular store.

2. You wish to save money and believe the auction site will sell it to you for cheaper.

Now, stop and think about the ads. Let's do issue #2 first. If the guy is trying to save money, then unless he was an idiot, he already checked the commercial sites and is NOT interested in them. He will NOT look at the ads and will NOT click on them. He has already seen them and wants to get it for cheaper. So it is a non-issue for them. Also, the very nature of the fact that it IS being advertised means Issue #1 is NOT PRESENT. Chances are you could have found the item easily enough by doing a google search anyway, because hey, it was being heavily ADVERTISED, by the same people that run internet searches.

So the ebay auction sellers that are upset because they are losing people were in fact ripping them off. They were trying to sell things for MORE than they were worth by using an auction instead of trying to get a fair price. They were falsely trying to pretend the item was in short supply when it was not.

Was it illegal? No. Unethical? Well, let's say it is on the shadier side of the street.

The only time they ever lose a sale is if the buyer was a moron and they were trying to get this idiot to pay more from them for more than the item was worth. Sorry people, Ebay is NOT in the business to help you rip off fools. They are as much out their to help the buyers as to help the sellers, and you are basically complaining about ebay being fair to the buyers.

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[moderatorrater]

Also remember the other things that ads can do. For example, were I to buy an XBox 360 on ebay, one of the text ads could lead me to a site that sells accessories and games that I'd want. It's a win win at that point.

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[mabhatter654]

but the auction page is the sellers AD that they PAY FOR!!! Ebay has lots of other space to advertise on, but the auction page "belongs" to the seller. Another poster mentioned a mall selling ads inside competing stores..that they rent to sell stuff. How is this different?

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[quintessentialk]

I've rarely found things cheaper on ebay than I could elsewhere, especially things like electronics which other people want (high demand) and don't know how to shop for. As you said, ebay only works if

1. You are bidding on a rare item that you simply can't find elsewhere
2. You are rare person bidding on an item no one else cares about. (essentially what you're hoping for in #2 in the parent post)

Mind you, this covers plenty of circumstances, but you're leaving out a lot of people:
1. People who enjoy ebay's search features. Maybe it is more convenient, even if it isn't cheaper.
2. People who have heard ebay is a good place to get cheap stuff and don't investigate whether there's a way to get cheaper stuff.
3. People who like the visceral pleasure of winning an auction or 'getting a deal'.

I agree, advertising doesn't distract the 'rational ebay user' demographic, who has already considered all non-auction retail venues before placing a bid. But it might distract people who are unfamiliar with the alternatives.

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[gurps_npc]

I have to tell you that if you are smart, #2 is not as rare as you would think.

Look for used/damaged items. Look for spelling mistakes. I got a phone for cheaper by taking a used item with a bad battery. Bought a new battery and it lasted for 1 year, about as long as most people typically have a phone for anyway.

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[Anonymous Coward]

It has been my experience as an eBay seller that a significant number of buyers subscribe to the "eBay is ALWAYS cheaper" school of thought. I resold a number of iPod nanos for $15-30 more than the price at Amazon.

Re:Those sellers that complain are crooked.

[bcattwoo]

You apparently have a very broad definition of "crook". I wasn't aware that trying to sell something for more than it is available elsewhere was somehow crooked or a ripoff. How unethical it is for the grocery store not to tell me that that can of beans is $0.10 cheaper down the street.

If the buyer is too lazy to look elsewhere then they will probably end up paying more than necessary. However, I have a real problem believing that someone who can figure out how to use their computer and navigate to eBay would be unaware of the myriad of other places where one can purchase a Wii, etc. I also do not see any false implication of rarity since there will generally be about a billion listings for anything that is not truly rare.

These sellers pay eBay to promote their items for sale or auction. Ebay is turning around and profiting by helping outsiders pilfer their customers through advertisements on the same listing pages that they paid for. I think they have a right to be pissed.

It can be a service to the buyer

[wherrera]

If I am trying to see what my maximum bid should be and I follow a targeted ad which shows me a retailer selling that same item for $50 with $5 shippping, then I know the total of maximum bid and seller's shipping should be less than $55. If the seller does not like this, they should be sure they can compete. If the ad were to get in the way of my viewing the auction, then I'd complain.

Re:It can be a service to the buyer

[Lord Bitman]

Agreed. If Sellers are getting hurt by this, it's because the sellers are charging too much or expecting too much.
If I'm on eBay and see an ad for something at the same price or lower than what I'd expect to pay on eBay, I will go to the non-eBay site. 100% of the time.

Re:It can be a service to the buyer

[mabhatter654]

So I can go to Best Buy and pass out Walmart ads next to the items being sold... right...

Re:It can be a service to the buyer

[AK Marc]

If Wal-Mart paid Best Buy to put the fliers there, then Best Buy wouldn't be the one complaining. The person complaining is Best Buy's distributor that sees lower sales as Wal-Mart's distributor makes more sales, but Best Buy makes *more* money with ads from Wal-Mart in the store.

Re:It can be a service to the buyer

[tompaulco]

It's kind of like Best Buy's property manager (to whom they pay rent) coming in and posting fliers for Wal-mart, K-Mart, Circuit City, etc., and the property manager getting paid by the other companies to do so.

Don't like it?

[Colin Smith]

Switch to an alternative. QXL, Ebid, CQout etc.

Re:Don't like it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Which combined, don't even have half the audience that eBay does.

That can't be all the sellers are mad at....

[TheDrewbert]

When I last tried to sell stuff on e-bay the only bids I got were from the postal money order scam artists. Sold my stuff on craigslist instead.

Re:That can't be all the sellers are mad at....

[Mister Whirly]

Well that is easy enough to remedy. Under PAYMENT FORMS ACCEPTED - click Paypal or credit card only. Just don't accept money orders.

Who cares?

[Ctrl-Z]

I didn't even know that eBay had targeted ads now, but who cares? It's not like people have any other auction site to go to. Sure, sellers can complain that people are sent away by ads, but if the auction is good, the buyers will return.

If You Don't Like eBay

[Nom du Keyboard]

If you don't like eBay's policies, the way they take down legal items too far quickly when certain large companies complain, the way they revoke accounts with no legal backing for it, the way they only accept PayPal for electronic payment, their ever higher fees, the difficulty in getting help from them, the way they won't even list some legal items (e.g. concert tickets), the way...

One would think that a better competitor without many of the above problems could come along and steal eBay's business. What was once innovative with them has become old, rigid, formalized, and preying too often on some of their best sellers. Don't think that an alternative can't come along.

Google has the same problem

[Animats]

They're a public company, and it is not sufficient for them to simply make profits. They must actually grow those profits.

Google has the same problem. Having achieved domination of their main market, now what? There's a temptation to enter new markets, but the main market is so good that all the other product lines are less profitable.

The classic answer is to stop growing and pay dividends. Utility companies and railroads used to do that for decade after decade, once they'd maxed out their industry in their area. But a company that pays dividends and doesn't grow is valued by the market like a bond; the market cap is about 20x the dividend. Google currently has a P/E of 52, and doesn't pay dividends at all. eBay has a P/E of 39, and no dividends. Plus, dividends are taxed twice, once when the company pays them and once as income to the recipient.

The modern answer is merger and acquisition activity. Most M&A activity is a lose for shareholders, although a big win for management. eBay's is generally considered to have paid far too much for Skype. Then there's buying back stock, which, again, is overall a lose for shareholders, but a win for management with stock options. Stock buybacks don't usually shrink the float; they just compensate for the dilution of options issued.

Re:Google has the same problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, dividends are taxed twice, once when the company pays them and once as income to the recipient.

This statement is more than a bit deceptive.

A company makes some income. They must pay tax on that income no matter what they choose to do with it. There is no special tax on the company for issuing a dividend.

If they choose to give it to investors, then those investors pay a tax on those receipts, and this is often referred to as 'double taxation' by tax protesters. But to be clear, there are no special or extra taxes put upon the company because they decided to give away their money.

Re:Google has the same problem

[jedidiah]

Sure there is. It's like any business. Any money you choose to
"take out of it" will be taxed. That money would not be taxed
if you chose to just let the business spend it.

So, for not squandering this money the government first penalizes
the company for profit taking and then the stockholder for profit
taking.

If that same business took all of that money and bought a bunch of
Hummers, there wouldn't be a tax bill. Infact, they would be able
to get a tax writeoff on the depreciation of the Hummers.

The US Tax Code is real "Brazil" type stuff.

Re:Google has the same problem

[z80kid]

>This statement is more than a bit deceptive.

> A company makes some income. They must pay tax on that income no matter what they choose to do with it.
> There is no special tax on the company for issuing a dividend.

I think this is highly dependent on the point of view. Who is "they". The company? The owners? Are the owners the company, or not?

If you view the company as a "being" separate from it's owners, then your model is correct. If you view the company as a "thing" that you bought a piece of, then it is not quite the same.

If you and I (as investors) buy a $50k house and sell it for $100k, then we each make $25k and pay taxes on that. The house itself does not pay taxes on it's increased value before we get our cut.

If we buy a company for $50k, and that company makes $50k it will pay tax on that $50k before it pays us, and then we will pay tax on what's left.

But if we keep the $50k in the company and use it for capital improvements to expand, most of that will come off the company's taxable income (you don't get taxed for money you spend as cost of doing business). We sell our shares of the company for the $100k it's now worth, and we pay taxes on the $25k we each made - the same as if we had invested in the house.

Re:Google has the same problem

[KTheorem]

I think this is highly dependent on the point of view. Who is "they". The company? The owners? Are the owners the company, or not?

My view is this: As soon as you can sue the investors instead of the company when the company does something bad, the investors can get their dividends tax-free, since the investors would have paid it already on their income from their share of the company. But as long as they have created a pseudo-person in the form of a corporation to protect themselves from the company's actions, that pseudo-person has to pay it's own taxes.

If the investors don't want to be taxed in addition to the company being taxed, they need to personally accept all responsibility (including possible jail time and fines) for what the company does.

Re:Google has the same problem

[Maxo-Texas]

Depends on the company. This is not true for a sub-chapter S corporation.

The income flow straight through to the stockholders as dividends (up to 36 here in texas) with no taxes to the corp.

All expenses are deductible.

There are some nuances.. but basically that's the way it works.

Re:Google has the same problem

[2short]

"Are the owners the company, or not?"

Obviously not. This isn't a matter of how you "view" it or feel about it. The law offers a variety of options for forming institutions, you are free to choose the one you want. If the owners wish to "be the company" and not be taxed as separate entities, they may form a partnership.
If they have chosen to form (or invest in) one of the various forms of corporation instead, it's a bit silly to then complain that there are both advantages and disadvantages to this. You want to "Be the company" when that's good for you, and not when it's bad for you? Sorry.

Re:Google has the same problem

[Mr. Slippery]

The owners? Are the owners the company, or not? If you view the company as a "being" separate from it's owners, then your model is correct.

And a large publicly-traded corporation is indeed a being separate from its owners. That's the whole point. The corporation is an artificial person created by the state to allow shareholders to make profits while being protected from responsibility.

What ads?

[maiden_taiwan]

I wonder if this is a non-issue. I've been using eBay for years and honestly, I haven't noticed the ads. Literally. If you'd asked me earlier today if eBay has these ads, I'd have said no.

The shipping thing is a big deal

[phorm]

I think ebay loses out on this too, since I don't believe that they profit from the shipping fees amount (it's an expense). You can report sellers for unusually high-shipping, but the reports tool - like much of ebay these days - seems more or less useless as any auctions I've reported (keyword spamming, deliberate inserted in wrong section to gain more hits, overpriced shipping) don't seem to get the sellers or even the auctions in question knocked off. One would think that ebay would realize that these things == lose profit for them, but I guess it hasn't shown on their bottom line yet.

My big problem at the moment is with sellers who indicate shipping at price X (which seems vaguely reasonable), for example $15. Then, the item arrives in a $1 bubble-padded envelope and the seller pockets the rest. It especially pisses me off because I've had auctions wherein I underestimated the shipping when selling (winner in a far corner of the country that costs more than my blanket price) and lost cash on that, while almost every seller I see is taking in 40% of the shipping price as profit while skimping on the actual delivery.

Re:The shipping thing is a big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

"Shipping" prices are a way to avoid eBay's ever increasing fees. If you've ever placed an auction and used PayPal for payment, you're looking at around 20% off the top from all the fees you pay. If I sell a widget for $100, I end up with $80. I wanted $100 for the item, so I will pad the shipping rate to make up the difference. Effectively, pushing the cost of posting on eBay to the buyer and not the seller. Now, it has gone to extremes lately with a lot of deceptive auctions hoping to rope people into paying high shipping rates.

I used to be a big eBay buyer/seller in the early days but I think I've bought 2 items in the last 5 years and sold nothing. Between scams, shipping ripoffs, power sellers it's not worth it. In fact, most times you can buy the items locally for less and get them faster.

Re:The shipping thing is a big deal

[myth_of_sisyphus]

Shipping was a problem for another company you might have heard of: Pets.com.

When I worked at Pets.com, I wondered why the many Alaska customers were ordering dog food. In fact, I wondered why we had so many customers from Alaska--in every other web-disaster I worked at Alaskan customers were rare.

They were taking advantage of the free shipping deals Pets.com so often implemented.

Note to self: free shipping on a 50 lb bag of dog food to Alaska is not a good business model.

Re:The shipping thing is a big deal

[sasdrtx]

I've always wished eBay would just ban shipping charges altogether. Buyer bids, wins, pays his bid and nothing more. It would make comparison shopping a lot easier. This would likely hurt sellers for a time, but I think it would even out fairly soon.

The same goes for places like Amazon, although they *do* offer free shipping on almost everything.

And while I'm up here on the soapbox, how about requiring merchants to include sales tax in their prices? They do that in Europe, and it's extremely refreshing to buy a €24.95 radio and know that €25 will cover it.

Re:The shipping thing is a big deal

[Fred Ferrigno]

See the sibling post about Pets.com and shipping 50lbs of dog food to Alaska.

How about....

[paisleyboxers]

Don't Click the freaking ad? How about that?

Re:How about....

[Jtheletter]

It's not the buyers are upset that ads are there necessarily, it's the sellers. They're *paying* ebay (twice if they use PayPal) to help sell goods, and ebay is at the same time providing ads that could result in lower sales for these sellers. Since the listing fee is taken by ebay regardless of whether the items sells or not, it's kind of like ebay double dipping. They get listing fees, and ad revenue, and are using their users as the contextual ad base. Kind of slimy when you look at it that way.

Try NowSellling.com

[ReDRage]

I keep saying this. Try NowSelling.com I know it is new and there is not much there.... yet. But there are no ads.

Re:Try NowSellling.com

[Anonymous Coward]

What a waste of my life. There are about a half-dozen items on the whole site, some of which are labeled with "test... this isn't real." If it was thinly populated but had potential, I could see why you would suggest this site even with no vested interests, but it's absolutely barren and doesn't appear to even be a finished development project.

So, since you appear to have signed up to Slashdot just to flog something, it's either your site or belongs to someone you know. In other words, get lost, shill.

eBay is not a Babysitter

[Jambeeno]

If you don't want to leave an auction page either learn how the open links in a new tab/window or don't click them. For cripe's sake.

Applause

[ackthpt]

You have quite well summed up my sentiments regarding eBay. You should tweak it a bit and start a petition and send it to the morons who run the company.

Like you I am a logn time eBay user, but less and less all the time. As a seller it has become painful to keep up with all the changes (and bugs) they introduce. One particular bug kept charging customers 9.65 for insurance even though I had no insurance amount typed in. It came from some older listing where I saved the listing for a template. The bloat of pages is making it less usable for a person on a slow connection.

I feel, too, the usability has declined from a buyer standpoint. The searches keep coming up with recommended things like (for some definition of "like") what I'm searching for. I have to login when i want to look up what something sold for (why, so they can track what I'm looking for and point out next time who is all selling it so I can buy it? Sometimes I want some idea what an item sells for to decided if I want to sell one, not to buy it.)

As a buyer and a seller research is often necessary. I search to see what same or similar things have sold for to determine what price range I can expect. The concept of Private feedback is completely sick, I can see who uses Private and steer clear of them as sellers. I don't particularly like these people as buyers, either and wish to have the ability to block certain types of bidders. Further the difficulty one encounters trying to find why some seller or buyer has negative feedback is quite a bother, why? To what purpose do you shield bad news about people if you're going to keep it anyway?

Lastly, I really wish I could screen specific sellers. If I'm looking for a telescope I don't want to see anything from Taximarket -- nothing personal, but they're catering to the low end of the market and flood the listings with GREEN, SILVER, BLUE, whatever colour telescopes they have. I'd like to scan for telescopes without seeing all their offerings because nothing they have I want. This can be carried over to sporting goods and other categories where a lot of inexpensive Chinese commodity goods or knock offs are listing.

Ebay is rapidly becoming as seedy as many of the flea markets I've visited. There is good stuff there, but there's so much chaff to filter through. If their profitability is hinging upon maximising listings they may find bidders give up and go to other sites because they are fed up with sifting through too many listings to find what they want.

Re:Applause

[jra]

Lastly, I really wish I could screen specific sellers. If I'm looking for a telescope I don't want to see anything from Taximarket -- nothing personal, but they're catering to the low end of the market and flood the listings with GREEN, SILVER, BLUE, whatever colour telescopes they have. I'd like to scan for telescopes without seeing all their offerings because nothing they have I want. This can be carried over to sporting goods and other categories where a lot of inexpensive Chinese commodity goods or knock offs are listing.

As it happens, I've recently discovered that you *can* filter specific sellers -- up to 10 -- out of searches, using Advanced Search. I recently had a problem trying to *buy* a laptop. One seller had a nice batch of the model I wanted, but my bids (with eSnipe) kept bouncing, so I bid one by hand, and discovered that the seller had limited, in some fashion, his acceptable bids to those buyers "who had linked their eBay account to their PayPal account".

Only problem is, detailed inspection of the profile control panels on each side showed me *no way to do that*. So I guess eBay will permit sellers to restrict buyers to a category that doesn't -- and cannot -- exist. Way to go, eBay.

So I rebuilt that search, and filtered out IT-BuySmart, and ... then I ended up buying my boss's laptop, since he got a new one. He hates Vista. :-)

Competition is GOOD

[StCredZero]

ebay sellers are complaining because ads are taking their customers away? There's a word for those ads: it's *competition*.

You want to keep your customers? Then you've got to compete on convenience, price, or with items not available through regular retail channels. I've seen lots of things on eBay for about the same price as in the store. Maybe this won't be as common now.

If eBay's advertisements are enabling competition and more choices, then it's better for the consumer, which includes me.

Re:Competition is GOOD

[SL Baur]

ebay sellers are complaining because ads are taking their customers away? There's a word for those ads: it's *competition*. Um, without those sellers, EBay doesn't have a web site. It doesn't seem wise to me to alienate the core of your business.

Re:Competition is GOOD

[jt2377]

Are you stupid or trolling? how's it ok for eBay to take money from their seller and at the same time killing their very own customers? that's like a cop taking bribe from the criminal and at the same time acting like he care about the community (tax payers) who also pay his salary!

Re:Competition is GOOD

[order_underlies]

EBay's core asset is the BUYERS - not the sellers - people sell on EBay because it has the largest amount of buyers. This is why the buyers pay nothing and the sellers pay ridiculously high selling fees (I really think the final value fees are too high). I sold a laptop on it for 450 and got charged 28 for doing so. I don't think EBay are too worried about the sellers because they know the sellers need them. Maybe if they advertise they wont try to constantly milk sellers for more cash.

In support of competitive markets

[dustisearth]

E-Bay auction services have been lauded from the beginning as approximating as nearly as possible a perfectly competitive market. Competition, keep in mind, at least in the American model, is not for the benefit of sellers and suppliers, but rather is to the benefit of consumers, maximizing consumer surplus by creating price competition. To the extent that Google ads increase this competition, they realize the end that made E-Bay so great in the first place. Presumably, to whatever extent Google ads do drive people away from E-Bay auctions it is because they are not competitive, and this is a good thing for consumers and for the market.

The only thing that really cuts against this is that ads could be misleading or customers could be distracted from finding a competitive auction. On the first point, however, there are already laws that address that problem. And on the second, the auction model itself assumes the existence of personal responsibility enough that we shouldn't have to be paternalistic about people getting distracting and not looking out for themselves. Finally, to whatever extent someone forgoes a competitive auction for a higher fixed price through an ad, that can be explained by the consumer's preference for immediacy or for saving time, both of which are legitimate preferences.

Re:In support of competitive markets

[vux984]

The only thing that really cuts against this is that ads could be misleading

Them I'm sure they'll fit right in.

I'm sure they'll be less misleading than a lot of auctions though, and probably fewer will be outright scams.

Re:In support of competitive markets

[dustisearth]

Agreed. And typically the source will be more easily traceable for legal purposes, provided that the seller is not foreign.

It can only hurt them long term

[llZENll]

This just blows my mind, so ebay spends millions attracting customers, building its site, gaining sellers, advertising everywhere, all for ONE goal, to get a buyer on their site to make them some money. Now why on earth would they send those buyers away to another sale site, when they could translate them into a sale? Instead of putting any external ad or link, they should be putting an internal one.

Re:It can only hurt them long term

[dustisearth]

That's difficult to say without more information. It is possible that it could hurt them if the loss (of auction commissions) from sending buyers to other sites exceeds the gains from advertising revenue, but it is also possible that the advertising revenue will exceed the loss of auction commissions. Empirical information is needed before one could say one way or another. If all that we have to work with are intuitions, we are facing an intractable "debate" that will go nowhere.

Re:It can only hurt them long term

[mochan_s]

If an item does not sell, the seller will probably list it again giving more money to eBay. (Most of the time, for small items, the listing fees are higher than sale fees).

Craigslist

[timeOday]

So, what will be the next thing to take eBay's place?

Craigslist. They're already dominating want ads, which is similar enough to auctions that craigslist could stand a chance of solving the main problem - that ebay has all the users, and thus benefits from the network effect. In order to displace ebay, a challenger will have to be more than just a little better, they'll have to blow ebay away, and somehow bootstrap a big enough user base to be viable. Since craigslist actually runs its service to maximize value for users instead of shareholders (and it's not just talk - craigslist's behavior utterly confounds Forbes), and could bootstrap from their want ads business, they might be able to do it.

Re:Craigslist

[Damvan]

The last five times I emailed someone on Craigslist about an item they had for sale, the response was to go look at the Ebay auction for the item. Craigslist has become a method for people to advertise their ebay auctions, not actually sell the item directly. In all five cases, the auction was posted before the craiglist ad.

Re:Craigslist

[timeOday]

I've not had that experience yet, but then the only things I've bought on craigslist have been items that are hard to ship (a used TV and a used bicycle). It sounds like Craigslist needs a requirement that all items advertised must be available for immediate pickup. Craigslist should definitely avoid becoming merely a redundant front-end for ebay.

Re:Craigslist

[puck01]

I've noticed people doing this, although I can't say I've had it happen on an item I was interested in. If I remember, it is against the terms of service of craigslist to do this. As with the ads I've noticed doing this, I just click on the 'spam' or 'prohibited' tag. I'm not sure there is much else you can do short of contacting CL directly.

Re:Craigslist

[XHIIHIIHX]

Of course, that is kind of thwarted once one realizes that ebay OWNS cragslist! http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3394631

Re:Craigslist

[owlnation]

And although it sucks slightly less than most other classifieds sites, here's the problems with Craigslist...

Firstly, it's part owned by eBay -- so it's not really in their interests to do anything about it, even though the do have the technology to filter out some of these ads at least.

Secondly, reporting something to Craigslist is pissing in the wind. Their system does not really work. It relies on a significant number of users flagging off scams -- and that just doesn't always happen, and doesn't happen fast enough. It also means the the same scams show up all the time -- since there's no way of escalating a scam such that it gets added to a filter. Look at any non-American Craigslist page and you will see almost no genuine ads.

Not enough users -> lots of scams -> not enough users -> scams don't get removed -> not enough users, because the site is full of scams. It is an extremely dumb way to run a website, which clearly fails in any non-US market.

The only advantage Craigslist has for the rest of the World, is that it is not Gumtree -- also owned by eBay -- and known by many in the UK as Scumtree or Scamtree, because they seem to have absolutely no ability to remove scams. And there's some really nasty stuff on that site -- serious crime. You can report ads, but it seems an entirely manual process, and they are obviously understaffed or in no hurry to do any work (the latter seems likely). 90% of the scams on that site would be piss easy to block permanently -- they are criminally negligent in not doing so. It is incredible they have not been sued.

There is a huge gap in the market for a trusted classified ads site. All of the current models fail for exactly the same reason -- they don't much care about removing the bad guys as long as the cash is rolling in and they aren't being held accountable.

Re:Craigslist

[rs79]

Yes Craigslist is partly owned by ebay. Not because Craig wanted it that way. A former partner sold his shares (30% of the company) to ebay and Craig wasn't happy about this, but still retains a majority of them. He doesn't want to become the next big thing and he and the CL community like it the way it is. Sorry that's it's not the nanny state you want or expect, but ya know, caveat emptor and all. Just take reasonable precautions. It's really for local items that you pick up and can see, touch and play with before you buy.

I can't say I use CL a lot but I've had tremendous luck with it. And XBR for $20, $1000 worth of exotic tires, damn near new for $100. I can't complain.

I use ebay very very occasionally these days. Maybe a cable here and there when I can get one for a couple of bucks instead of paying $39.95 in the local office stores (which aren't actually real local, I live in a fairly remote rural area).

eBay prices are = retail

[riceboy50]

In the last few years I have rarely been able to find products I am shopping for at less than retail prices on eBay unless they are damaged. The only reason I would even look on eBay anymore is if I was desperate to find something that was unavailable through other channels.

Re:eBay prices are = retail

[vaporland]

i just bought a replacement LCD display for my Apple laptop on eBay that was $200 less than anything offered anywhere else. Last month I bought an AC adapter, same thing. These were made in and shipped from China, and I got a great deal on both. I agree that it is better to buy from individuals than big shippers, but these both were from big shippers and saved more than 40% compared to anything else I could find...

Ebay = Dead.

[Organic Brain Damage]

I got scammed on EBay. The scammer had 200 positive feedbacks, no negative. They hacked some legit seller's account. I was one of 20 who got scammed before the negative feedback flood showed up. I got absolutely no help from EBay, just sympathetic "we can't do anything about it" e-mail. Therefore I no longer use EBay and I recommend anyone who does not want deal with scammers stay away from EBay. Friends attempting to sell on EBay have been getting nothing but scammer offers. EBay is dead to me. Viva Craigslist.

Actually...

[raehl]

Sorry people, Ebay is NOT in the business to help you rip off fools.

What? That's EXACTLY the business that eBay is in. They charge sellers for selling. The more the sellers sell for, the more eBay makes. The ENTIRE business is getting sellers to sell as many things as possible at as high a price as possible.

Well, at least until they added ads.

I think eBay is being dumb here, because they get paid when sellers sell stuff. Ads don't just compete with the seller selling things, they compete with eBay getting paid by the seller when the seller sells things.

Google is not done profiling us / selling ads

[AHumbleOpinion]

Google has the same problem. Having achieved domination of their main market, now what?

Google's business is targeted advertising. They are not done there yet. I think you may be confusing new ways to gather data about us, to profile us, with new business opportunities. Search, browser ad-ons, GMail, web-based apps, mapping and directions, news, etc are all designed to gather more info about us so that they may charge web sites for delivering more optimal ads to our eyeballs.

Where's my cut?

[tompaulco]

I figure their ought to be a configuration setting that you can choose/unchoose to allow targeted ads on your storefront. Also, if you choose to accept, they should pay you an amount that you specify for each ad. Of course, if they don't like that amount, they can always choose not to advertise on your storefront.

eBay annoyances

[Whuffo]

The targeted ads are a problem; eBay acts as an auction house and those aren't places where advertising is customary or expected. It's correctable at small effort, though - you can turn off targeted ads in your preferences. That won't eliminate the ads, though - just the targeting.

(Insert ad here:) Get Firefox with the AdBlock plugin!

The thing they're doing now that is starting to annoy me are the ads that they insert into the navigation. Click on My eBay, get a full page ad. Click on the obscure link in the ad to go to your My eBay page. Tip to eBay: this is counter productive. This kind of user-hostile advertising only serves to annoy your customers and ultimately reduces your profits.

eBay prices are 1/3 retail except on new in box

[sjbe]

In the last few years I have rarely been able to find products I am shopping for at less than retail prices on eBay unless they are damaged.

Disclosure: I used to make a significant my living off of a company selling things on eBay up until recently. I've sold (or tried to sell) pretty much everything you can imagine on eBay from beenie babies to a Lear jet (no joke) and everything in between.

The only things that are retail price are new in box items that have not been on the market long enough for a secondary market to develop. If that's what you are looking for, eBay is just not the right place to look unless the item is quite rare. I wouldn't buy an iPhone off eBay for example. Too much risk for too little discount. That said, for most secondary market items you typically can purchase any used item for approximately 1/3 of retail. That's a very crude rule of thumb but I have the sales data to support it. Sales on eBay are VERY brand sensitive and it's VERY hard to make a profit unless you are a manufacturer (in which case you probably aren't selling on eBay) or highly specialized. There are too many sellers out there competing for there to be any margin on most items andeBay and Paypal fees will pretty much suck away any remaining margin. It's fine for turning items into cash, just don't expect to make a profit doing it.

Frankly the only reason eBay has remained top dog is network effects. eBay is where the buyers are and where the sellers are so it's hard to effectively auction most items anywhere else. eBay knows this and has increased their fees every year for the last several years, mostly at the expense of the users. Their IT backend and support is abysmally poor, they provide no $ incentives to volume sellers, and they their conflict resolution and fraud prevention policies are absurd. I don't really care to do business with a company that treats their customers so poorly.

Re:eBay is not a Babysitter

[Anonymous Coward]

> If you don't want to leave an auction page either learn how the open
> links in a new tab/window or don't click them. For cripe's sake.

Um, you've missed the point.

You likely won't be any more sympathetic to the real situation, and yet the real situation whooshed right over your head.

(hint: it's not BUYERS complaining that the ads are irritating and take them away from the auction. It's the SELLERS complaining that the ads take their buyers away. The sellers can't control whether or not the buyer clicks on a link, and if so, whether they do it in the background or not.)

You might still be giving the worlds smallest violin award, but at least give it to the proper party.

Blocking Unwanted Parasites with a Hosts File

[hack slash]

Someone posted this link to Slashdot recently so I checked it out, I found it's very good at blocking ads for what it is, just a hosts file.
Using the hosts file they provide I don't see external adverts on eBay anymore, just this in place of where the advert would be displayed:

Action canceled
Internet Explorer was unable to link to the Web page you

better efficiency

[naoursla]

eBay makes it money by increasing the optimality of resource allocation and then taking a cut of the surplus from that increase. Increases in well presented information cause the market to behave more like basic economic theory predicts. It increases market efficiency. Adding targeted ads is simply another way of taking a slice from increase in allocation efficiency. It fits perfectly into their business model, but they are getting a smaller piece of that pie by outsourcing the ad sales and ad placement.

Full circle

[PMBjornerud]

A couple of years ago, brick-and-mortar retailers were upset on eBay for potentially leading some of their customers astray.

Today, eBayers are upset because brick-and-mortar retailers advertise on eBay, potentially leading some of their customers astray.

We've come full circle. Now we just have to smooth out the kinks until everyone goes where it is best for them to go, and purchase there.

Random Ads

[Kelson]

A couple of years ago, I tried googling my name and a co-worker's name. For both, there was a sponsored link to eBay with the caption 'buy {name}! Get {name} on eBay!'

I had that same experience once, looking for the phrase, "nigerian scam". It brought up this convenient advertisement:

Nigerian Scam
Looking for Nigerian Scam?
Find exactly what you want today.
www.eBay.com

I found that "419 scam" also displayed one of the ads, but "advance fee fraud" did not. And when I searched for "random stuff," eBay claimed they had that too!

Obilg response

[MrCopilot]

You can find hundreds of eBay and Paypal horror stories on people receiving empty boxes, boxes with other things inside, unable to cancel fradulent transactions without jumping through hoops, etc.

http://www.xkcd.com/325/

ebay ads

[danikar]

imo eBay shouldn't have Ads. They already make money from people listing items. Or they should allow free listing and stop outsourcing their ads so they can get higher profit margin off them.

two words...

[huckda]

craigslist

there

eBay's Love

[jvlb]

Face it: All the buyers and sellers combined represent in eBay's vision is the carpet on the stairs to its financial ascension.

stupid stupid stupid

[Hillgiant]

Rule #1. Never ever base your business model on the success of someone else's business. Especially if, (a) you have no control over how they execute their business, and/or (b) they do not have a vested interest in your success. It is a recipe for failure. Nobody likes a parasite.