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Where Does Linux Go From Here?
With the success that Linux is currently enjoying Linux.com (also owned by SourceForge, Inc) asks the question, where do we go from here? With such a high level of success and greater corporate participation (on both the consumer and provider fronts) will the spirit of freedom and idealism remain true or will the ever-present corporate bottom line eventually take over? "Linux is surrounded by proprietary IT firms. Some of them view Linux as a profit maker, others as a threat to their profits. Both sides represent a challenge for Linux in holding to its ideals of freedom and openess. The first large IT firm to really grok Linux was IBM. It has a long and mutually beneficial association with Linux, Apache, and other FOSS projects. The company has learned the language and the mores of the FOSS world, and has made significant code contributions as part of those projects along the way."
With the success that Linux is currently enjoying Linux.com (also owned by SourceForce, Inc) asks the question,
Come on editors. SourceForce? I was gonna let the missing comma between 'enjoying' and 'Linux.com' slide, but jeez, this is so blatantly wrong.
will the spirit of freedom and idealism remain true or will the ever-present corporate bottom line eventually take over?
How much do we have to worry that something will "take Linux over"? No matter what corporations do, they'll always have to release the source code, which means people can always fork it. Wasn't that the point?
Or is the title of this post an insidious allusion to things to come? "Linusoft: Where do you want to go from here?"
Linux is not really an enterprise operating system at this point in time. Yes its working in enterprise environments, yes its stable in most implementations and there are good patch management solutions etc but what is missing is some standardisation across hardware vendors. There is no standard way of monitoring RAID/Fans/Hardware failures etc. Each vendor has their own tools which makes having multi-vendor environments a pain, If we compare against windows with mom every vendor has a plugin which will allow you to monitor and manage the systems from a central point. If I look at some of the other "enterprise" operating systems like Solaris and AIX they have a standard set of tools for fibre channel controllers etc which work on all of the vendors. It may sound like a small issue but when your dealing with lots of systems having to know what controller is in a system to support it makes a big difference.
Linux is a Ferrari. It requires a real driver.
Mac is like a Toyota. A good, solid vehicle. Dependable and long lasting. Just don't expect to do any internal work on it like my dad used to do when I was a kid.
Windoze is like a Ford Pinto. It'll get you to work and back home again, just don't expect it to have any real power.
The Linux community must get away from trying to be Ford or GM (Genetically Modified?). Linux offers POWER! No apologies POWER! It ain't for your gran'ma.
We have always been at war with Eurasia!
Where next? Linux must crush its enemies. To see them driven before it. And to hear the lamentations of their women...
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
There are two fields where Linux is lacking compared to Apple and Microsoft: How easy it is to screw things up and games. Of course driver support is important, but that is driven by demand of the market, not demand of the developers, so I consider the previous two reasons of higher importance when discussing how best to expand Linux in the market.
Now I know ideally we should all be intelligent enough to be able to operate Linux without screwing something up, and if we do be able to fix it. But the layman is not and will not have our technical ability, however simple the task may be. Since Linux does not have technical support often in the same way Apple and Microsoft do, users are driven away for fear of an inoperable computer. They would rather have a computer that works 50% of the time than 25% of the time. As far as business use for Linux, obviously they have the resources to be able to have any problems fixed and prevented, but personal users can not do that.
As far as games, Tux Racer does not cut it. Email and web browsing of course are workhorse reasons for having a PC, but you can do that on your cell phone nowadays. Honestly, game development seems to be in a bit of a catch 22 in the same way that driver support is a problem. Investors need to see profitability in the market, so they want to see market demand. However market demand isn't rising because there isn't enough of a reason to switch to Linux when you can't play the hottest new games on it. Of course games do get ported, however initial release of games for Linux I think is vital to bring the average computer user into the fold of open source.
Just my two cents.
How many articles are we going to have on the same topic? Just a bunch of nonsensical ramblings about "corporations" and "freedom" with about 0 substance. You don't like the direction Linux is taking in terms of "corporate influence", then fork it, end of story.
Monstar L
*Handwave*
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
For a flame war on Linux fanbois?
... ummm ZERO dollars I can setup up an application development station for Linux apps. Compare that to the MS equivelent? yikes. As soon as it makes no difference to users whether they use Linux or Windows... I bet the cost of the MSDN drops to something your mom can afford to buy you for christmas. Lets face it, Linux and F/OSS ARE the only thing creating competition to MS. Mac is nice, workable, and user friendly... but the price tag is a bit much for someone shopping for the Hyundai of home computers.
There are several 'hobbies' that I partake of, and inevitably, in all of them, as someone is introduced to the hobby, they have great enthusiasm for it, try to re-invent the wheel, or loudly proclaim how great something is, despite it's aging status technologically.
Linux is proving it's point. IBM and others ARE contributing (to Linux and many other projects... Thank you IBM) but I think that the real point is that F/OSS is becoming popular, not *just* Linux. Where proprietary systems have been the bedrock of business applications, F/OSS is making strong inroads. LAMP anyone?
The problem is that you can't talk about how good it is without comparing it to Windows or other such products. THAT is the problem... comparing it. When you go to the hardware store to buy a hammer, do you notice if the head is round or fluted? Do you compare the steel quality of new mower blades before deciding on which to buy? A tool is a tool. Seldom, IF EVER, will you find yourself thinking "Oh noooes, I can't dig a hole with this shovel, it was not made by Acme"
Interoperability is the key. The interface between hammer and nail is a pretty open standard. The interface between dirt and shovel is a pretty open (if dirty) interface. The PROBLEM is not whether F/OSS and Linux is good enough.. it IS. The problem is that interface to content. The one remaining major hurdle is MS document formats. Once that interfacing/interoperability problem is solved, Dell will be making money shipping Linux configured desktop systems. The problem is as much user perception as it is anything else.
For about
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
I really, really, really want to support Linux. However, frankly, I just don't have the time to hassle with it. I have made 4 endeavors in the past. And currently have a 5th endeavor for my wife. If I were to give Linux a score grade it would "C-".
I know that's not what a lot of you want to hear. But it's the truth. I don't want to spend several days trying to get a 802.11g wifi card working. I don't want to have to use some install manager or try to figure out how to get some script to run from the terminal in order to install an application. I simply want to be able to click and launch it, and have it install. Sadly, driver & software installation hurdles plague Linux. (In fact, these were the same issues that plagued Linux when I tried it repeatedly in the late 90's early millenials.)
I will say, it's improved quite a bit. At least in video card support apparently. But the truth of the matter is, I'd take XP & OS X over Linux. And that's because I'm anti-Linux or don't support Linux. Far from it, I wouldn't have tried it for my wife's (non-critical use) machine. So please guys....focus on these issues. (And don't say "Linux isn't really for the masses." Because everyone else keeps trying to push it that way. And that is the slated goal of many.)
Best of luck all...
- The Saj
Oh! Oh! I know! How about incorporating kernel-level spellchecking?
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Linux is never really going to "take off". That's because the whole Linux/FOSS model is anathema to what it takes for a desktop OS to really take off. What Linux needs to "take off" is a single, easy-to-use viable distro for the public. Which is not going to happen, because Linux and FOSS are all about having lots of choices and having everyone customize it for themselves. Sorry, not going to work. Software developers don't want to worry about working around the differences (whether real or perceived) in umpteen dozen different distributions (and variations of those distributions), most of which have significantly less than .1% of total desktop market-share. Heck even Ubuntu (currently the distro that most nearly meets these requirements) has at least three variations.
There is no -1 Disagree mod. Slashdot.org/faq defines mod options. USE IT.
I love Linux as a concept: An open-source, free as in beer, free as in speech, tweakable operating system offered and supported by multiple vendors. But Linux as a reality is an hodge-podge of incomplete applications spread across multiple subtly-incompatible distributions.
Moments ago, I read the following thread on the Rapidsvn mailing list. Rapidsvn is a very nice front-end for the Subversion version control system. I've compiled it, made changes to it - it's quite nice. I like it especially since it works on Linux, Mac, and PC -- all three are OSs I use to some degree. So the following is not a dig on this particular project. It is one example of something that happens a million times every day:
(P.S. I chopped the thread for brevity to make my point) Hi, I have downloaded rapidsvn 0.94. I am trying to install on SLED 10sp1. I enter
at the command prompt. I get a lots of messages and finally:
checking for APR... not found
configure: error: APR is required. Try --with-apr-config.
I tried...[various things] but got the same error message. I installed all the available APR's for
listed listed as version 1.2.2-13.2
Any ideas how to install rapidsvn -- I really want a gui interface on
linux similar to tortoisesvn on windows.
[various responses about apr-config, apu-config, downloading pre-built binaries, etc. but no solution] So we have a fairly simple GUI program, with no crazy dependencies. This application is not available in binary form for this distro, and since there are many major Linux distros and you never know what will happen if you install an RPM from another one. You can't compile it from source without a CS degree, and you need gigs of development libraries to do it.
This is the Linux I know, and it is why I have Linux on that other partition so I can boot it up now and then and see what the state of Linux is. But so far, it's always stuff like this. The challenge with Linux isn't learning the UI or thinking differently or anything. It's just getting stuff installed and getting it to work properly. I've never gotten a Linux distro up to the productivity of either my Mac or my Windows PC. I've maybe gotten 80% of the way, but with 500% of the effort. It's just not worth it.
Hopefully WGA will put a stop to this.
Change is certain; progress is not obligatory.
Broadcom:
Proprietary driver manager pops up, asks you if you want to install the driver and d/l the firmware, auto installs it and network manager pops up to connect. Easier than in windoze.
ALSA/OSS:
These days the only time you'd ever need to mess with these settings is to
a) record something using either USB or built in mic's. Record something in windows without messing with a control panel.
b) use it with an app installed through wine, and even then not so often.
My Babylon
I'm not so sure. I think the real next stop is actually handheld devices, be they cellphones or tablets. Not only that, but I'm willing to bet most people won't even know or care that these devices are running linux. The only people who have ever cared about what they run on their desktops is A) Geeks and/or B) Fanboys.
I haven't read TFA yet (I will), but what is missing in the Linux community is unity and standardization. It would be great if people could rally around a single distribution of a common software framework, so that there is consistency and compatibility between different distributions - or better yet - that a single major flavour of Linux that more or less replaces Windows.
I wonder, is that possible? A unified set of standards in the Linux world would give us reliable and secure computing, something that simply cannot be attained in the Windows world. Ease of use, stability, reliability, security and open source software, that's what needed to replace today's bloated and ridiculously insecure and unreliable Windows systems.
Beauty is in the beholder of the eye.
Who, in their right mind, would devote thousands of development hours cobbling something together, then cast it into the wind where basement developers use "what they want, and [get] rid of what they don't?"
Red Hat, Canonical, Novell... hell, even Microsoft have a few open source projects kicking around.
I write bullshit
Stop Computers/Cars Analogies on S
There's something missing from the article "Where does Linux go from here?"
The users. There's virtually no mention of them. There's talk about companies who are connected with Linux, about the technology, about the freedom of open software. But of the actual users there's only one passing reference.
If you want to advance Linux, start thinking about the users - their needs, their desires, their problems, and so on. To begin anywhere else is to neglect the most important part of the equation, and Linux will remain a "system for nerds" forever.
And so far as "Where does Linux go from here", send it to rewrite.
Send the list to canonical, with a copy to the kernel team, and post on every major linuxforum. It might actually get you somewhere. I would have modded you +111 insightful if I had modpoints left.
The Linux clipboard is a perfectly conventional clipboard although it has some minor differences at the nuts and bolts level. (Unlike Windows and Mac, it doesn't move any data until a Paste is requested). Clipboards are an application level entity not an OS thing. All the OS does is allow the destination to talk to the source and vice versa. Unix in general and Linux in particular allow non-text objects to be moved via the clipboard just as easily as they do text objects. But the applications need to support that. Some do. Some Don't. Same is true for Windows.
You, can, for example, use the clipboard to copy images from a web site viewed in Konqueror to Kword. You can't copy the same image from the same web site viewed in Firefox, but that's because Firefox doesn't support it, not because Linux doesn't.
The only clipboard thing that is actually different in Linux is that the text mode clipboard for tty consoles is a different clipboard than the GUI clipboard (so that it can work if the GUI is dead or not started). But if you run a console application in a terminal program under the GUI, it uses the GUI clipboard so you can move text to and from console applications if you need to.
You can't see ANYTHING from a car, You've got to get out of the goddamned contraption and walk...Edward Abbey
One of the big arguments that is given for paid versus open-source software is support. There are a lot of companies that offer enterprise support for Linux. And there is a lot of information scattered about on forums. But often this can be a bit cryptic for the newbie to Linux. Furthermore, such posts often assume additional knowledge. One can easily find oneself looking up a chain of topics just to get something simple working.
Perhaps what is needed is "Open Source Support". A website who's focus is to help the newbie to Linux on the consumer end. The site would have volunteers helping via IM chat, email, and perhaps VoIP. Said site would only support the most basic of activities (ie: setting up basic configurations such as mouse, video, printer, basic networking, etc. Basic software installation. Etc).
The support agents would be volunteers. The website would provide email alias & accounts. And even an option to "tip" your support representative via "Paypal" or perhaps other means. The site would avoid any more complex issues (ie: setting up your own web server, etc). Not saying a support contact might not help someone. But any such request could be politely declined.
It'd be an interesting idea. Not sure if it could be pulled off, but if it could I think such a site would do wonders for helping people migrate to Linux. (Which would then entail much more support on the corporate end for drivers, development and enterprise activities.)
- The Saj
The problem is that's not a business. Who, in their right mind, would devote thousands of development hours cobbling something together, then cast it into the wind where basement developers use "what they want, and [get] rid of what they don't?"
Ok, well even if we all agreed with you, that would be a reason why Microsoft wouldn't make their own version of Linux. However, my point was that *if* Microsoft were to make a version of Linux, the Linux community would have nothing to fear from that. If Microsoft good changes to the kernel, the Linux community could get the code for those changes and use it themselves, and there would be nothing Microsoft could do to stop it.
it's laughable to imagine that there's any kind of business potential in releasing things into the wild where they're instantly ripped apart as you've described.
Yeah, tell that to the companies who are profiting from OSS.
Since Microsoft has a monopoly on the desktop (yes they do, the court ruled so) there isn't much in the way of options.
#1. Develop your own system, keep it proprietary and hope that Microsoft doesn't see enough value in taking it from you.
#2. Support Microsoft's system and hope you can:
2a. compete with everyone else doing the same
2b. make enough profit to survive, but not enough so that Microsoft moves into the market itself.
#3. Go Open Source / Free Software and try to get your system enough marketshare that you can turn a profit, somehow.
#4. Give up on the computer industry and close your shop.
Sun has realized that #3 is the only option short of just giving up. At least they have something marketable - their expertise in the systems that they designed and that they built.
Hmm, let's see...
And of course the usual suspects like Sun and IBM.
Free Software can most definitely be an important part of a business strategy. For example, the company I work for uses it to leverage testing resources of the community. We also get bug fixes back from the community. We think it makes a lot of sense for a large community to share core development responsibility, the sort of stuff you find in university textbooks that is not proprietary in any way.
In the future, companies aren't going to make money selling operating systems, word processors or basic compiler implementations. They're going to make money modifying the OS to run well on custom hardware, selling plugins to do fancy document formatting and developing new compiler optimizations that make all of this run well on their proprietary computer system.
Easy.
Lunix is a unix-like OS for the C-64. There's probably about 15 or 20 people worldwide who use it.
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
There are still a few things holding me back from Linux... so I hope the community focuses on these soon:
- User-friendliness. Instructions on how to accomplish something should never involve command line anything. Some users just don't get it.
- Software support. Start pushing major vendors to make Linux versions. Start with major tools like graphics suites and IDEs. Then games. For example, I need Dreamweaver for it's code editor and Photoshop. And no, I don't want to use Gimp or buy the bloody expensive PHP IDE when I already own Dreamweaver licenses.
- Hardware support. Drivers for all my stuff.
- Make sure that the whole OS has integrated Help for anything you want to do. Again... no "Open a command window and...".
-Work on the attitude of the Linux fans on various support forms so they don't laugh at basic user questions. I need a supportive and friendly environment where I can go to for help.
It's been a while since I was looking into these, can anyone let me know if any (or all) of my points are already solved?
Well, I've been using Linux since 1995, so I've seen it go through many changes. I just installed Ubuntu 7.10 and was amazed at how far they have gotten and how well it worked (I wasn't too impressed with the last two released). Using this distro, I'll address your points:
User friendless: I still do things from the command-line out of habit, but then find that I could've done the same thing from a GUI settings manager. Barring something unusual, I think the typical user could get by without ever having to use the command-line.
Software support: I don't see how to push commercial software vendors other than a mass-migration to Linux. Commercial entities can only be manipulated by money and potential for gaining/losing profits. The only real choices the community has is to develop alternatives or work on improving things like WINE to support popular software such as Photoshop/Dreamweaver. I believe at least older versions of Photoshop work in WINE.
Hardware support: Similar problem to software support. This problem lies with the vendors for not supporting Linux. But its difficult to get them to release Linux drivers, especially open-source drivers or closed-source drivers that are kept up-to-date. People can reverse-engineer drivers, but this is especially difficult in things as complex as Wifi drivers. Wifi support is quite good these days, if you buy the right hardware and don't need any bleeding-edge features. My wifi card was supported out-of-box with 7.10. So was power-management (Suspend, Hibernate) and other features (CPU scaling, battery monitoring, etc) necessary for laptop use. It's important to buy the right hardware if you want a pain-free Linux experience, however. You wouldn't buy a copy of OS X and then expect it to work on any hardware.
Integrated help: Haven't checked this out yet.
Attitude of Linux fans: I understand that you have to deal with these people if you go to user-driven support forums. Supposedly, Ubuntu forums are quite friendly from what I hear. I don't spend too much time in support forums myself, so I don't know. Personally, I'd like to see Apple fans quit being such douchebags, but that doesn't stop me from using it. Expecting some kind of mass change in human behavior is just unrealistic. However, the more normal people that start using Linux, the more there will be a change in overall attitude, because more regular people will be using it to outnumber the rabid fanatics. I've actually noticed that trend with Apple, and a general decrease in douchebaggery, but the core douchebags are still there if you look in the right places. This is because Macs have appealed to a wider audience by switching to Intel and allowing Windows easily in VM's or natively. Linux is experiencing something similar, but the people with the attitudes will still be around.
#!/
It screws up all the "referers" in Apache :(
"What is it about GNOME that makes it so compelling to distro manufacturers?"
It's because linux geeks perceive KDE as pandering to the windows crowd and people like GNOME for the simple fact that it isn't trying to be a windows clone. I personally don't like GNOME and prefer KDE, not because it is more "Windows" like, but I like the look, feel, and layout better. Some distros are KDE-friendly. After all, you can get kubuntu (although I think regular ubunutu install cd should give you a choice during install of KDE or GNOME, but I can understand the desire to conserve CD/DVD space.
Cmdr Taco, "Gee ScuttleMonkey, your right, the company who's name you mis-spell lat week seems to have dropped a zero form your paycheck, no problem I'll have HR fix, should only take 6 months or so."
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
I thought you might have a point until you said "Heck even Ubuntu (currently the distro that most nearly meets these requirements) has at least three variations.".
.exe will work on different Vista editions, a .deb will work fine on different Ubuntu editions.
.deb may not work on other Linux distros, but I really don't understand why you're complaining about Ubuntu havving different editions. I really don't see the problem.
Just what is wrong with having 3 variations of Ubuntu? They're all Ubuntu, i.e. they're binary compatible with each other. If you make an Ubuntu package, that package will work on Kubuntu and Xubuntu as well. The package manager will install any dependencies you might need. The differences between the Ubuntu editions are smaller than differences between Vista Home, Vista Professional, Vista Ultimate and whatever the other 3 Vista editions are called. Just like a
Now, I'm not arguing that that
#5. Develop for the web ala facebook, google, ebay, etc.
#6. Develop for something other then the x86 desktop, ie. cell phones, portable game devices, game consoles, etc.
On my own, I've tried #6 and #5. I've made a little money on #5 and no money at all on #6. Still, gotta keep trying or just accept working for the man.
Only because you're a fucking moron using Internet Exploder on Windows.
Why would you expect sympathy for that on Slashdor?
Luke: "where am i going to find a free, open source FTP client?"
Obi-Wan: "Luke, use the SourceForce!"
Bingo!
For all of the fancy explanation in the parent post what you've stated is the truth. The clipboard does not function as expected for many, probabably a majority, of users.
It simply doesn't have the capability of other Operating Systems. This is a problem.
CPUs, memory and storage are today getting to a price/performance point where it starts making sense for manufacturers to contemplate building consumer devices on top of a scaled down but familiar platform with few or no license fees associated. Chinese manufacturers are I think leading the way in this area atm. and we'll soon see the fruit of that interest.
./ titled "Is this the year Linux will conquer the desktop?".
This is a good thing. Consumers are many and varied and most of them are non-techies. To sell to non-techies you have to really nail the (user interface) experience and lessons learned during the next 5 years will eventually trickle back the desktop domain.
So "Linux on the desktop" will i.m.o. not be something that will happen until Linux is in most of our tiny devices (iphone/ipod clones, nokia phones, portable media centers, wearable GPS devices / personal network hubs and whatever other gadgets of today and tomorrow.. ). So my guess, 5-6 years before we start seeing Linux widening noticeably on the desktop, but at that point the current obstacle holding Linux on the desktop back will have vanished and then it will be the final time we see an article on
In a society that believes in nothing, fear becomes the only agenda ~ Bill Durodié
Klipper completely obliterates this problem. It's native to KDE (and installed by default in Kubuntu) but apparently will run happily in GNOME, or you can check out Glipper. Problem solved.