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Redmond's Heavy Guns Go After OpenSocial
jg21 writes "It is probably coincidental, but two responses to OpenSocial from well-respected members of the Microsoft blogging community have each in their own way come out against Google's OpenSocial initiative, Dare Osabanjo because in his view OpenSocial while billed as a standardized widget platform for the Web, actually isn't. And Don Dodge because his claim is that fifty million Facebook developers "don't know what OpenSocial APIs are...and don't care.""
Guns ablazin', I'm SURE they could take on the entire Google fanbase.
Shocking! Shocking I say!
What is wrong with the world, this day in age, when a company's employees will come out and bash the competitors competing products?
</sarcasm>
This is about as surprising as Ballmer bashing Apple, Apple bashing MS or Google, [insert any other corporate rivalry here]. News it ain't.
Grammar Nazis: Yes, I am aware that "ain't" really isn't a word.
Self proclaimed typo king, and inventor of the bear destroying coffee table (patent not pending).
I agree. Who the fuck cares about APIs? It's not like people are joining Facebook just to add fifty million stupid applications to their profile.
-Matthew Riley "TofuMatt" MacPherson
I have a website
Well yeah, if you're going to base the usefulness of something on how many Facebook developers know about it, pretty much nothing is useful.
Slashdot social media options: AIM, ICQ, Yahoo, Jabber and Mobile Text. Why no MySpace?
There aren't 50 million Facebook developers. It only seems that way because there's 50 million 'really awesome super dooper wall' applications.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
It might be just me, but there seems to be an awful lot of blog posts coming from Redmond employees these days based on the new tactic of "If we get enough people banging on our blogs and rubbishing it enough, and then claim that we're the victims in all of this when someone raises a valid point, maybe people will believe that it's true!"
Facebook does not have 50 million developers. It has 50 million users. Active developers are an incredibly small minority within that community.
Or are you saying that Miss take-a-self-portrait-at-arms-length-on-her-cell-phone is a developer because she knows how to post a picture as her background?
Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
"Dare Osabanjo because in his view OpenSocial while billed as a standardized widget platform for the Web, actually isn't." Did Microsoft really just criticize Google for creating a non-standardized standard? What?
Google has supposedly found a cure for Facebook addiction. Participants in a study responded 2 to 1 over placebo in favor of OpenSocial.
All kidding aside, we've all heard these "killer app", "[insert popular toy] killer" stories before. I'm sure it has some advantages over Facebook in many respects. But give it a year or so and we'll see if this is the app that ends Facebook. Considering all the hype is coming from blogs of Google developers, I have to take this with a grain of salt.
The game.
No they don't. They have 50 million -accounts- which completely fails to be the same thing.
Some of these are held by people who have two or more accounts. Some are held by spammers, and a great many are held by people who at some point or other signed up out of curisoity, but haven't actually used the site even once the last month. These aren't "users" of the service.
I don't want Facebook either, so it is even.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
I'm not sure what exactly your point with this is, but I'd like to contribute some interesting facts. First, JSON isn't a Google thing. In fact, it was created by a Yahoo employee (Douglas Crockford), and is an open standard which is available as RFC4627. Having worked with JSON in the past, it's a much simpler, and much lighter markup language than XML (yes, that's right, it's a markup language, nothing more, just like XML, and HTML). I'm not certain how google is using JSON in their API, but in my experience deciding to use JSON over XML is probably a smart idea, as JSON is much more compact, and much easier to write (a lot less typing) and can easily represent all the standard data constructs available in almost any language.
If you want to bash the design of Googles API versus Yahoos that's fine, but please don't confuse the issue by saying JSON is somehow more complicated than XML, as that couldn't be farther from the truth.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
While its a good idea Google are only doing it for one reason. All that time you spend on Facebook and MySpace is time that could be better spent looking at ads. If they come up with the facility for you to do your social stuff without leaving their site or gmail or whatever thats more money for them.
I have excellent Karma and I am not afraid to Troll it.
Why any web developer or widget creator out there who would limit their WEB audience because they favor 1 API over another baffles me. There are several large networks out there moving to open up even more of their audiences to us, so why do I care if one API uses JSON, FBML(its cute but I stay with tried and true HTML on that one), XML, ATOM feeds, and etc. At the end of the day Open Social strikes at proprietary web platforms and allows a widget/web application developer to focus on marketing and spreading their wares instead of worrying about keeping up with multiple web platforms to develop for.
It might be correct that OpenSocial isn't a standardized widget platform, but neither is Facebook. Having 50 million users doesn't make anything a standard, as Microsoft should know the hard way after the Vista release.
Sure MS employees are going to take shots at Google services. But even if they're not perfect, Google is getting the services out there and putting the tools out there. While MS blogs about it. I'm sure MS will eventually field some Windows-centric competitive product...just as soon as they get done blogging about how bad Google is.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
Even the Weighted Companion Cube has 16 accounts. What an attention whore! So much for being faithful...
At least he's never threatened to stab me.
=Smidge=
So says this article - http://www.techcrunch.com/2007/11/02/first-opensocial-application-hacked-within-45-minutes/
throw new NoSignatureException();
Who would believe that Microsoft is denigrating a competing standard? What's next? Toyota comparing their trucks to others? Household cleansers claiming to work better than the leading brand?
This could lead to a calamity of Biblical proportions: Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling. Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes. The dead rising from the grave. Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria!
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Is it just me, or is anyone else conditioned to just ignore anything Microsoft's cronies have to say about competing products as FUD?
Its not about not following standards, its about not submitting work to standards body, and specifically, about not being "open" because the technology isn't submitted to a standards body. Osanbanjo writes:
Yeah, its the new Microsoft definition of "open": "open" means "submitted to a standards body".
I haven't seen the comment made anywhere that perhaps the real motivation for the bit OpenSocial announcement could be that Google lost the bidding war for a stake in Facebook. This could explain MS's lack of interest in creating a cross-SN API, though I can't picture them doing that anyway, except maybe as an option in their dev tools.
JSON is all about simplicity. It's trivial to write a JSON parser in any language that has first-class support for hashed variables. That is, all languages.
XML might be a better markup language for complicated documents. However, it sucks for exchanging data structures.
I think the difference is that between a strongly-typed language and a dynamically-typed language. XML has support for strong typing and structure verification. JSON is designed to work with languages like Javascript, Perl, Python, PHP, and the like-- which all have support for dynamic typing. So maybe the differences in opinion lie between developers who like the straitjacket (and algorithmic purity) of a strongly-typed language, and those who like the flexibility and simplicity of a dynamically-typed language.
Anyway, that's my opinion. I think the GP post might be referring to a preference in the matter.
Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
When someone is paid to sit at work and comment on their web log about the competition, it is no longer a 'blog but a paid web log, or 'plog.
If Slashdot were chemistry it would look like this:Cadaverine
OpenSocial isn't a social networking website. If Google had a version of Facebook, I would guess it would be Orkut, which is Google's social networking website. But OpenSocial is a set of technologies that several social networking websites -- including MySpace, which has more users than Facebook -- are committed to supporting.
I'll link to my other comment on this issue.
Basically, I'm still kind of bitter about Google releasing a standard that, well, doesn't seem much better than Facebook. For it to truly be open, you have to allow users, not just website admins, to choose other services than Google.
I can connect with Gmail people from any email server, because they talk SMTP. I can connect with Google Talk people from any Jabber server. I cannot connect with OpenSocial/Orkut people from any other authentication/profile server than Google's.
OpenID has already solved that problem. It doesn't do all the social networking stuff -- yet -- but it was a start. I don't really care if you throw it out and make up your own standard, so long as you have at least that basic level of functionality.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I think it's "Dare Obasanjo" not "Dare Osabanjo" ... and no, I am pretty sure he doesn't play the banjo.
not many Nigerians do.
The one from Don Dodge pointed out the most important fact that Facebook's success is based on its users' loyalty to the service. Do they really care about applications? Most of them dont care that much. If one developer leaves, there will be plenty of others who will do same thing, even better.
The second article looks at OpenSocial from technical perspective. It compared the two set of APIs to see whether facebook's or opensocial is better technically. OpenSocial should be seen as FREE APIs rather than "open" (which generally regarded as good, no evil) APIs. These APIs are owned and administered by Google, which they can withdraw anytime they want as with Google Map APIs.
Having said that, it's still interesting to watch the battle bw facebook and "the new microsoft"
I recently deactivated my Facebook account, largely because of the flood of stupid applications and friends bugging you to add said stupid applications. Maybe if I spent an hour or more per day at Facebook I'd find them fun diversions, but as is they are annoying, annoying, annoying.
Personally, I think this is just an attempt by Google to kill the entire social networking fad. Make them ALL as annoying as Facebook, and they'll be done.
HBH
"Smart is sexy." -- D. Scully ("War of the Coprophages")
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The Facebook API let's you (the developer) pick between JSON or XML.
Well, I think TFA made a pretty good case that the OpenSocial API is functionally the equivalent of the Facebook API. Maybe OpenSocial is simply a standard (or whatever), but realistically it is nothing more than another networking service that is consumed by multiple web applications, rather than a networking service that is consumed by a single web application.
All of this for a stupid social networking site.
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It's not entirely fair to compare XML to JSON. Something like XML-RPC would be better. XML-RPC defines a load of basic types (strings, integers, floats, dates) and some compound types (structures and arrays). It is semantically almost identical to JSON (although it also provides RPC functions). If you compare JSON to XML-RPC markup of the same document, you will see that the JSON markup is a lot simpler. Which is more easily readable is largely a matter of experience.
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Wow, is jg21 taking a jab at Dare Obasanjo by calling him Dare Osabanjo? Maybe it was just a typo, but I digress.
Dare seems to present his thoughts in a well written manner and doesn't seem to be ranting, so I dismiss jg21's one liner to describe Dare's article as a cheap shot. I'm no fan of Microsoft but if Google can learn from Microsoft's developers (hint, hint, free secrets about Microsoft's strategy) to make Google's API better then why not. However Don Dodge's comments are exactly the kind of "Na-na-na, naa-naa-naaaa", "in your face" kind of bullet-point ranting I'd expect from a Microsoft developer.
In any case this topic is sure to get more press here then it's worth, even my time spent commenting on it seems to be a total waste now that I think about it.
Seth
"Is that real poncho or a Sears poncho?" ~~FZ
Think about that for a second. Email is the oldest social network on the Internet, and it has as many users in the UK as Facebook has in the world.
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The whole OpenSocial idea just reminds me of something Microsoft would do. Facebook is out there, it's great, people love it, and now Google is making their own version (well I guess they already have Orkut, but yeah) that will most likely be universally ignored. Microsoft does this over and over just to gain a foothold in every market. The only difference is that this will be one of the few times for Google that no one cares (whereas Microsoft is quite used to that).
Once more there's confusion here. JSON is not JavaScript, any more than XML is. JSON was modeled somewhat after the JavaScript syntax, but it's considered a markup in its own right, and there are parsers available for it in many languages either out of the box (PHP), or as external libraries (Java, Ruby, etc.). JavaScript is a language like many others, and like any language it's possible to write very bad code in it. If you think strong typing will prevent that you're wrong (I've personally seen people write some very very bad code in Java).
AJAX exists because of a need that isn't being met. It's an attempt to fill that need and really has nothing to do with JavaScript other than that's the tool that was provided to get the job done. Like it or not, every web browser out there supports JavaScript, and the only other alternative out there with even as little as 40% of the browser market is VB (and then only if you're using IE and Windows). Do I think AJAX is wrong? Partially. I think that people are pushing browsers too far, trying to make them do things that they aren't really designed for. I think we need a new kind of browser to sit along side the web browser, not to replace it. In addion to http: which is handled by traditional web browsers, I think we need a app: or something similar handled by a "app browser" that's designed from the ground up to handle application development. The key to making the whole system work though is it needs to be a open standard not owned by any one company. If Google, or Microsoft, or even Mozilla Foundation get their hands on the standard and become the voice for it people won't want to adopt it because it will be used to bundle all kinds of things and lock people in to a particular vendor. We need HTML/CSS/JavaScript but done for applications this time. HTML was created for documents, and it's done very well in that regard, but we need something more, something for applications, and that's where we need to branch out and make something new.
Of course, most of this is terribly off-topic at this point, but since you brought up client side scripting and AJAX I'd figure I'd put this out here.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
Consider the source folks, this is the same online rag that hosts Maureen O'Gara articles. For those that aren't familiar with "MoG" she a SCO shill with an extreme anti-IBM bias that stalked Groklaw's PJ, posted her personal information and other sorts of gossipy crap which SYS-CON happily published. MoG is also the last holdout that believes the SCO lies (and who is, coincidentally, owed money by SCO as is shown in the bankruptcy debtors list).
At one time SYS-CON promised to get rid of MOG, right after a mass exodus by SYS-CON writers in protest over what was called a gross violation of professional ethics. Later in an interview for Free Software Magazine, Fuat Kircaali, CEO of Sys-Con, stated he felt Maureen did nothing wrong. Today they still let her secretly write pro-SCO rubbish, and in some cases outright incorrect information under a pen name.
Anyone who consideres SYS-CON an authoritive source of IT information would be better off reading eweek or TheOnion for that matter. Sys-Con has some sort of agenda and are (at least in my opinion) serving interests other than Free or Open source software.
It's true no man is an island, but if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie 'em together, they make a good raft.
Microsoft is losing on the web. Microsoft is unable to compete. So what do they do? They whine.
Without even reading this, I can already tell the following;
... this is just two guys on a blog. But this is pure Microsoft mentality; "If we don't have it, but it is something we want, there is something wrong with it and we just have to figure out what that is." There will probably be a more formal "beware of OpenSocial" coalition of the Microsoft in the future.
"Wonder Twin powers, activate!"
[Microsoft] form of; Fear and Doubt
[coalition of the willing partner to make it look like we've got a coalition here, for reasonable rates] You know, what he said. But I'm also the shape of Uncertainty -- but that is really vague.
OK, I'm jumping the gun here
Prediction: Google's new API will take off. While the power of FaceBook is the people. The power of Google's new API is that it is for developers. So businesses and developers who want to do "facebook" like things will want to check this out. They will be bringing their own audience in a sense -- so it doesn't TAKE from Facebook's market, but it will take from their growth.
Microsoft will be beaten by a sponge -- and it won't have to be an evil sponge either.
>> Because, as concerned citizens of the world, these companies just have to make sure everyone knows that a free API can actually cause cancer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonder_Twins
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
now ?
When did that happen ? with a pathetic 2% share ?
time to cancel my facebook account it seems.
Read radical news here
It's much less than that actually. As I said, it's 50 million -accounts-
I don't know, and neither does anyone except Facebook, but my guess would be that perhaps 10 million of those are current, active, nonduplicate accounts.
That's a lot from a certain perspective offcourse, but it still means that something like 1% of all internet-users use Facebook, 99% don't.
most windows users don't know what the .net api's are, and don't care either. so is .net irrelevant ms?
Yes, but you're still missing the point. It needs to be designed from the beginning for developing network based applications. That means it needs real graphics and animation capabilities. Sure you can kludge it in JavaScript and HTML by using 1 pixel by 1 pixel colored divs, but that's really really slow and terribly wasteful, not to mention a real pain in the butt to program. It would also be nice if it could integrate into the native OS to a certain extent (tray icons, in OS X have the menu across the top of the screen, etc.). But most importantly it needs to be lightweight. Most if not all the data (barring graphics) should be in some sort of text format like HTML and CSS, not binary blobs like class files. It also needs to put a lot of thought into security issues. For an example of something that I think is very close, but fails at least the proprietary test, check out Adobe AIR.
Curiosity was framed, Ignorance killed the cat.
Json,
Ajax, SOAP... Things are getting pretty washed up.
When do we get BORAX, or TIDE, of WISK? (Palm Olive?)
What's next, F13CXML (Friday-13th Coder Slasher Markup Language)
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
Just curious. I was trying to understand what this OpenSocial was, so clicked through the links... ultimately ended up looking at some site called Orkut. joined some random group to see how it worked.
And I saw a forum filled with spam. In fact 99% of the content was spam.
I don't use myspace, et al... is this how all of them are?
Welcome to The Latest Internet Fad (c)(tm)*.
* Copyright/Trademark may or may not include bold lettering.
calling this 50 million 'developers' is a bit of a joke too. you might as well call me a slashdot developer since I was able to post this message.
I'm so glad Microsoft and Google are responsible corporate entities, and not fueling a new feeding frenzy of irrational investment. It's not like the sub-prime collapse has done any collateral damage to the economy, so heap on more bizarre, nonsensical investment strategies.
It's soooo much like the 1990s that I saw mention of "Web 3.0" a few days ago, as if the comical fluff that is Web 2.0 wasn't bad enough. I think it's time I get on the bandwagon. Know of many brain dead venture capitalists out there willing to give me a few million. If I can beat the bubble's burst, I should be able to pocket a lot of money, live in Hawaii and laugh my ass off at the idiots out there.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
NY Times had an article "In India, Poverty Inspires Technology Workers to Altruism" that discussed how social networking sites had huge economic potential for the impoverished in India. I don't have much use for myspace, but social networking via the internet could have profound impact.
That's not really in dispute.
How is it a "networking service" at all?
Two Bloggers are heavy guns? Maybe you want to ask the boys over at Digital Research what it means to have the heavy guns come at you from Redmond. Writing snarky articles in a blog hardly counts.
MySpace was not only invited, they signed on, and by every account I've seen they are at least twice as big as any other social networking site.
So I think your criticism is misplaced.
So, you know, before bagging out this person for being a Microsoft shill (which he may be, I don't know) did any poster bother reading the OpenSocial API spec? Because I did, in fact, read it and I have to say, its really very bad. I mean, it reads like some marketroids gathered up some stuff Orkut is doing into a binder (which itself did not have much forethought), did a deal with some partners, and threw it out there with the word 'Open' in the title for the GOOG fanboys.
I am usually a fan of GOOG API's but this is pure competitive play that is weak technically and has little or no merit beyond who is supporting it.
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Only on slashdot would two blogs be considered "Redmond's Heavy Guns".
Microsoft has literally *thousands* of bloggers. Two of those stating their own opinions on something (and explicitly say, "This is my own opinion, not necessarily my employers") doesn't constitute "Heavy Guns".
-- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
Troll and Overrated? I'm pointing out that his name is misspelled, you humorless autistic twits.
Slashdot moderation should not be anonymous. We wouldn't need meta-mod if we had the ability to point and laugh at the morons.
.. means they got scared.
Typically ms keeps their mouth shut and even complements its comeptitors such as firefox.
I think the move by google surprised them and nothing scares ms more than a standard api they can not control like java or even html.
http://saveie6.com/
I love my guns as much as any good right winger, but, to even compare Microsoft's FUD to some sort of an armed camp seems awefully ludicrous when the real guys with guns are fighting in Iraq.
This is my sig.
I am intrigued by your comments and would like to buy into your newsletter. Can you publish it as an emersive web based experience that will leverage the latest in nVidia 3d graphics technology and an as yet to be standardized physics hardware accelerator?