Students In UK Tracked With RFID Chips

An anonymous reader writes "Ten kids in a pilot program in the Hungerhill School in Edenthorpe, England will participate in a program that puts RFID chips in students' uniforms to keep track of their whereabouts. A group called 'Leave Them Kids Alone' is opposing the program. Bruce Schneier blogs: '...Now it's easy to cut class; just ask someone to carry your shirt around the building while you're elsewhere.'"

Comments

oops...

[thekm]

lost my shirt trying to make the first post...

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[Architect_sasyr]

Damn mods can't even RTFS (Summary) any more. I for one welcome our new shirtless-will-one-day-choose-my-retirement-home overlords.

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[thekm]

I knew that I'd never get a 5 from that first post, but I certainly thought that "offtopic" was a bit harsh... The whole "can't be in school because I have to get first post on /. so I really do need to lose my shirt". Maybe it's just a little avant garde for those that really want to be first posters themselves.

Re:oops...

[Architect_sasyr]

Overrated perhaps, but my guess would be the mods didn't get the joke

Actually thinking about it, putting some sort of RFID tracking into ID cards or better yet a mobile phone might be an idea. We had a fire drill about an hour ago which I promptly ignored. If the doors were set to monitor my users as they went in and out of the building, that would have been detected. I could even have some sort of "disable-local-logins" script set up to lock their accounts from localised access when they're not in the building. Sure the implications for a school student is far greater, as they are prone to forget things or screw around with them (I was always the latter), but perhaps this isn't such a bad idea.

That said if anyone tries this one on me I'll be finding a different job or perhaps sabotaging the system...

Re:oops...

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget the shirts, My high school (and alot of other high schools in Scotland, part of the UK for anyone who doesn't know) issue'd everyone with a 'young scot card' (dubbed a smart card), it was designed to replace our library cards (both the school library and the public librarys) our 'Live Active' (card used by council run gyms, sports halls etc) and they where used in school dining centers to replace cash (there where top-up machines around the school where you could put money on our cards).

It was a printed photo ID with a 'PASS' hologram (approved by the UK goverment for proof of age)and the local councils logo on the back with, surprise surprise, a pasive RFID chip.

They don't have to implant the chips in school uniforms, we had to carry our cards if we wanted to eat from the school dining center or get books out of the library (which alot of students have to do often for classes) so it wasn't really a choice... and they even had the teachers carrying active RFID tags (they where used as door keys for the front doors).

Re:oops...

[Moderatbastard]

Such is life, it's a kneejerk reaction among some imbeciles to mod down the first post even if it is relevant and otherwise good.

I'm just picturing the nerdy kid turning up at class - alone - looking like a cross between a cricket umpire, a coat rack and a mummy.

Well

[moogied]

I think this is a very responsible use of "human monitoring". Its voluntary, its in there CLOTHES, and its only useful at school. Something like this I can understand. Now I did not RTFA, but I hope this is only used at exits/entrances to the school grounds. Just as a way of telling if they are there or not. Could be very useful in fire drills, bomb threaths, and lock downs. To tell who is at the school still, or left.

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[webmaster404]

Still though, whats the use of individual tracking seriously besides some "big brother" plot? Sure it would be useful but as with all technology some innovative hacker (I use this term with respect) will find a way to break it and make it useless for the intended purpose. Sure there is always human error, but human error is no match for human genius when they have motivation to go attack "the man"

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[Propaganda13]

Useless idea.
Kids would give their clothes to others to carry for them.
Block the RFID if they wanted to go off the grid.
Honestly, how long does it take for the regular teacher to run down the names of their students to see if they're there.

If there was a fire, do you want to teachers to manually check each kid got out alive or just rely on a tag in a piece of clothing. A trapped kid's RFID signal may not reach sensors, a kid in gym class would have different clothes on, etc.

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[Iftekhar25]

I was involved with a start-up company in Singapore trying to sell RFID solutions to schools for tracking children.

The school we were pitching to were interested at first, but didn't make the jump once they discovered it was "experimental." In hindsight, it was a good thing, because the start-up I was working for lacked the expertise to pull it off.

But I agree with the parent; it's responsible so long as it's used within the school premises. Children aren't the same as adults, and otherwise draconian practices are part and parcel of raising kids.

This isn't a privacy issue, but on the contrary, an example of the application of technology to save many man-hours of tedious attendance-taking and embarrassingly mis-pronounced names.

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[BadAnalogyGuy]

If there was a fire and not every kid was beeped out the gate, wouldn't you like to be able to know where the kid was inside the building with just a quick scan of all school building sensors?

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[illegalcortex]

The kid or the kid's jacket? Would you want to send firefighters in to rescue the jacket?

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[clsours]

Wait wait, this is a school. We WANT big brother in our schools. This basically tracks students as they pass through doorways. So the teacher will not have to call roll, write it down every class period, and waste 5 minutes. You will see how much time a student actually spends in a classroom. This system wont provide any more information about a student than an observant teacher could provide, but it allows the teacher to do more ... teaching. An amazing concept, teachers teaching.

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[BadAnalogyGuy]

For lack of better idea where the kid would be, wouldn't you?

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[Cassius Corodes]

Here is a radical concept. Stop treating children like animals and start treating them like human beings. Letting kids go off the "leash" is necessary for them to become responsible people. How can they learn to be trustworthy if they are never trusted in the first place?

Not only that but you are essentially teaching children that there is nothing wrong with being tracked wherever you go - and that can only mean that they grow up to be people who will consent to draconian surveillance schemes because they are used to them.

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[Smidge204]

Kids would give their clothes to others to carry for them.

"Gee, these two students have been sticking together all day... and they don't even have all the same classes! Send someone to take a peek."

Honestly, how long does it take for the regular teacher to run down the names of their students to see if they're there.

That'll tell you where they AREN'T. The whole point is to know where they ARE, or at least were. Granted they could take the bugged article of clothing off, but if it's a shirt, pants, shoes or something it would be hard to do and not stand out as obviously not wearing the appropriate uniform.

If there was a fire, do you want to teachers to manually check each kid got out alive or just rely on a tag in a piece of clothing.

Obviously a physical head count is a requirement, but an RFID locater could help in the event the head count comes up short... even if there's a chance the kid ditched the tag somewhere, there's at least an equal chance it's still on him. If the building is on fire and not everyone is accounted for, wouldn't having a general idea where they might be in the building count as a plus?
=Smidge=

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[CastrTroy]

Most teachers I had didn't even do a roll call. They just scanned down the list and checked for missing people, anybody they didn't see they would call out their name. It probably took them about 30 seconds.

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[The_Sledge]

"Yes, roll call stated all my 25 students are attending my class today. Oh, I can only see 23 heads, maybe I miscounted. Time to clean those glasses."

I can see an outbreak of truancy and students tags being traded somehow.

Bad idea, to be honest, if the task is for roll call or tracking movements as it would take the human element out of a simple task which would be better off being kept manual.

On a related issue with personal RFID tagging, I just took delivery of a new "e-Passport" where the middle pages are labeled "do not stamp or mark" as they contain the RFID tags for travel. I can understand the need for an RFID in a travel document, but it's utterly a waste when we consider Towelhead Tom from Kerfuckistan doesn't need RFID because his country doesn't have RFID-enabled passports.

I can see where this is heading.

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[camperdave]

Not only that but you are essentially teaching children that there is nothing wrong with being tracked wherever you go - and that can only mean that they grow up to be people who will consent to draconian surveillance schemes because they are used to them.

Isn't that exactly what we want - a generation who think there is nothing wrong with being monitored? A generation so used to the idea of being watched, that they will start demanding it when it is absent?

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[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of retarded teacher honestly takes roll call for 5 minutes like that every day?

Anyone who cares about effeciancy assigns seats.

The teacher just has to look and see which ones are empty and of those which should not be empty. Hopefully with half a clue to notice anyone who shouldn't be there. Even going down a list does not take more than 1 minute unless they are completely brain dead.

Relying on technology to replace awareness of ones own students is a great idea... While we're at it we might as well just replace teachers alltogeather with the F1 key on our $100 notebooks.

Electronic tracking is great if you happen to be a cow or an endangered elephant.

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[Anonymous Coward]

The average school administrator is so focused on "discipline" that he/she doesn't even see the children as people, regardless. Simply knowing where they all are isn't going to change much about this, and also, how easy will it be to jam the system? If you can get a cell phone jamming device, you can get an RFID jamming device too. At least one kid will try it. On another note, schools don't want children to grow up to be responsible, they want them to grow up to be conformist.

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[BadAnalogyGuy]

Electronic tracking is great if you happen to be a cow or an endangered elephant.

Hey! Americans don't want that crap either!

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[cloricus]

Is it just me or wouldn't this allow bad people to track children as well?

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[lahvak]

At least one kid will try it.

Yeah, I can't wait for the slashdot articles about a kid being suspended from school for a month for using a jamming device.

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[lahvak]

This isn't a privacy issue, but on the contrary, an example of the application of technology to save many man-hours of tedious attendance-taking and embarrassingly mis-pronounced names.

That's bullshit! If a teacher cannot take one look at the class and see who is missing, then you either have too large classes, of the teacher is totally incompetent, and I would not want to have him or her in charge of my kids!

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[Iftekhar25]

If a teacher cannot take one look at the class and see who is missing, then you either have too large classes, of the teacher is totally incompetent, and I would not want to have him or her in charge of my kids!

In an ideal world, teachers won't be incompetent, or have too many students in a class.

In an ideal world, teachers won't have too many classes assigned to them, so they won't get confused as to which class they're teaching, and who's in which class.

In an ideal world, a teacher gives a damn, and takes down the names of their students, or makes an effort to know their students.

Unfortunately, however...

The point you raise is true. But for practicality's sake, for schools with problematic children, or public schools where kids don't go to become the next Einstein, but just to learn the basics in the hopes that they don't turn out too bad later on... or for a school where the parents send their kids so they can have some peace at home... this isn't a bad solution.

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[doupatex]

Yeah, and it will have a very positive effect : kids will quickly learn how to sidestep RFID tracking. When it comes to circumventing laws, teenagers are very effective and imaginative.

And when they become responsible, adult citizens, it will be nearly impossible to track them down with this kind of tricks. Something like a vaccine against a particular strain of Bigbrotheris :-)

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[lahvak]

"Gee, these two students have been sticking together all day... and they don't even have all the same classes! Send someone to take a peek."

If the students are that stupid, they deserve to be caught. But it greatly illustrates why a system like this is really bad idea. The last thing we want is for the school administrators and teachers to know which kids hang together all day:

"Hey, you! Yes, you! I see you have been hanging a lot with that troublemaker Smith lately! I am warning you, you better stay away from him, or you are gotta get it!"

That'll tell you where they AREN'T. The whole point is to know where they ARE,...

No it isn't. Really pretty much all the teacher needs to know is that the kid is not in the class. So what is the kid is taking a smoke break in the bathroom? Or if he or she ran to the locker to get a homework they forgot? Or he decided to hang out with his girlfriend in that hidden spot in the school attic instead of going to the class? They are not in the class, when they show up, just ask them why were they missing. You don't need any stupid RFID chip for that. Of course, if a small kid comes to class late, with red cheeks, obviously has been crying, you notice and know something is up, and you act accordingly. I am afraid that with technology such as these chips, teachers will just say "we know where everybody is, we don't really need to pay attention to how they act, how they look like etc."

The kids are supposed to learn how to be responsible, make their own decisions, and generally become members of the society. They cannot learn that while knowing they are under a constant surveillance with no way to escape.

If the building is on fire and not everyone is accounted for, wouldn't having a general idea where they might be in the building count as a plus?

That's pretty much the only legitimate use of the technology. I am quite worried about serious surveillance technologies being introduced "just in the case there is some emergency".

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[ArcherB]

Useless idea.
Kids would give their clothes to others to carry for them.
Block the RFID if they wanted to go off the grid.
Honestly, how long does it take for the regular teacher to run down the names of their students to see if they're there.

If there was a fire, do you want to teachers to manually check each kid got out alive or just rely on a tag in a piece of clothing. A trapped kid's RFID signal may not reach sensors, a kid in gym class would have different clothes on, etc.

You're right. Since it is not a perfect system and can be defeated, let's not have it. Of course, using that logic, I suggest you turn off your computer right away. It can be hacked you know. I can't believe we even invented these things. All you have to do is turn them off and they are worthless! Now, speaking of devices that can track you, about your cell phone...

If there was a fire, do you want to teachers to manually check each kid got out alive or just rely on a tag in a piece of clothing. A trapped kid's RFID signal may not reach sensors, a kid in gym class would have different clothes on, etc.

And a trapped kid's RFID signal MIGHT reach sensors. It sure stands a hell of a lot better chance than a kid with no RFID sensors on him!

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[lahvak]

In an ideal world, the teachers will not abuse the system to drive the difficult smart ass kid that always makes smart ass comments and embarrasses teachers into a complete isolation.

In an ideal world, the school principal will not abuse the system to find out which of the kids could possibly have had an access to the information that he has been stealing money from the district, which has lately been brought to the attention of a local newspaper.

In an ideal world, a stupid gym teacher will not abuse the system and tell a bunch of his favourite jocks where exactly is that irritating nerdy kid that cannot even climb a rope currently hiding.

I don't believe that placing bunch of kids under a constant surveillance from which they cannot escape while they are in the school building will help them not to turn out too bad later on. I think it is a bad solution no matter what.

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[smardrengr]

You make a good point. There is just so much fear-mongering about tracking people, or tracking vehicles, or tracking information. Someone reads 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 and suddenly feels sure that every new technology will be used for only evil purposes. Wrong! Every new technology will be used for benign AND evil purposes. OK, that's almost a joke. But really. There are just so many instances of lives saved, or at least protected, as a direct result of tracking technology. Wikipedia has a good summary of the tech at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPS_tracking and these guys have a couple interesting news stories on how the gps tracking is reducing crime, recovering vehicles and saving dogs! No kidding. http://www.gpspolice.com/videos/ Point is, obviously personal tracking will be misused, but it will help people and save lives.

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[syousef]

Not only that but you are essentially teaching children that there is nothing wrong with being tracked wherever you go - and that can only mean that they grow up to be people who will consent to draconian surveillance schemes because they are used to them.

I think that's the idea. (Though perhaps not the PARENT'S idea)

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[Iftekhar25]

Cute. :)

All the abuses you've listed above are very easily doable by someone without an RFID system, and easily preventable by good policies, enforcement, and accountability.

I don't believe that placing bunch of kids under a constant surveillance from which they cannot escape while they are in the school building will help them not to turn out too bad later on.

I never said that either. :) I believe you owe someone a straw man.

The system gives more power, which needs more control, regulation and established good practices. It's not different to any other technological improvement. The old ways are still the best ways, and I still don't disagree with the core of your point, but you're being needlessly idealistic.

I believe this discussion is taking a turn for the mindlessly polemic, so this will be my last post on the matter. We shall have to agree to disagree.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is a very responsible use of "human monitoring".
The problem is a RFID tag does care if it's generating a signal from a school for a fire drill or some pervert using it like a high tech "game tag", it still generates it's signal.

Could be very useful in fire drills, bomb threaths, and lock downs.
Man, might as well dress the kids in orange jumpsuits. =)

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[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly! Some time ago I mentioned this as well: if you want people to consider this kind of stuff normal, you've got to train them young.

TPTB are patient enough to wait a generation or two.. and then you don't have people around anymore who have ever known that it's not normal to be living in a digital cage. Thinking about it.. we might even be further down this path then most people will ever realize in their daily lives.

One of my friends had an interesting idea a few days ago:

Let those people who want to live safe and secure in their own 'sheep cage'. It's somewhat safer than outside the cage, but you cannot go out. You're marked, tagged, tracked, etc.

The other people who do not feel this extensive need for security that is provided via a tagging mechanism get to live in their own part of the world. Less secure, but free and not bothered by the stupid "I've got nothing to hide" line of thinking of other people.

I must say I actually liked it.

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[Anonymous Coward]

"Gee, these two students have been sticking together all day... and they don't even have all the same classes! Send someone to take a peek."

I was under the impression that RFID (especially passive RFID, did not RTFA, but embedding in clothing implies passive), is only feasibly read in close proximities (3 or 4 ft is pushing it as far as I know). This wouldn't allow tracking, just whether or not they may have passed through some barrier, or swiped the tag somewhere. One could argue that using many powerful readers would allow position tracking, but then you get interference from all the tags, neglecting the expense (maybe a non issue for a private school).

Just my $0.02

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[Anonymous Coward]

"If the building is on fire and not everyone is accounted for, wouldn't having a general idea where they might be in the building count as a plus?"

That's pretty much the only legitimate use of the technology. I am quite worried about serious surveillance technologies being introduced "just in the case there is some emergency".

Nope, sorry, even that's not a legit use. All it takes is for one kid to leave his friend's shirt in the closet (intentionally or otherwise) and now you've got to decide: is your student playing hooky and trying not to get caught, or is he really there? Quick, you have to decide whether to put the lives of 2 firefighters on the line by sending them into a burning building who may be home watching TV.

We already have a way to find out if students are accounted for. We call it "roll call". It was part of every grade-school fire drill I ever did.

If you can come up with a hypothetical way that RFID can make it better, I can come up with a hypothetical way that RFID can make it much worse.

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[delt0r]

You clearly have not meet any English school kids. Really.

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[illegalcortex]

Again, as many people pointed out, ALL the RFID-in-your-clothes would give you is that the RFID chip is somewhere. That's why I pointed out that it doesn't tell you a kid is still inside. You still need to do the old fashioned head count, one way or the other. You should put absolutely ZERO faith in a reading or lack of reading from a chip. Otherwise, you're sending firefighters into burning buildings to rescue jackets. Or some kids were jacking around and popped the RFID chips out and one guy is carrying a couple just to mess with the system, and then you miss that there really IS a kid in the burning building.

So RFID chips in this situation are actually worse than useless.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Letting kids go off the "leash" is necessary for them to become responsible people. How can they learn to be trustworthy if they are never trusted in the first place?

Oh, we're way ahead of you. Next month we roll out Phase Two: all citizens in UK tracked with RFID chips. No need for anybody to learn to be trustworthy.

Love,
Number 10

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[Eivind]

All with you. If my kids came home with RFIDs schoolstuffs I'd personally see to it that they get a nice long visit to the microwave. I dunno about other kids, but my kids are human beings, not animals, and I insist they be treated as such.

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[Crankymonky]

"Hey, you! Yes, you! I see you have been hanging a lot with that troublemaker Smith lately! I am warning you, you better stay away from him, or you are gotta get it!"

Last I checked, Teachers already have a pretty good idea of who hangs out with who. In fact, a very good sense. Why? Teachers are there at lunch. Administrators walk around at lunch. At school events.

The one thing I could think of your point being valid is in possible drug deals, if the school noticed 2 (or more) students going to one remote place every [few] weeks/days. However, I highly doubt they'd be doing real analysis from the data collected.

Also, kids could easily block the RFID's signal with aluminum foil.

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[mjjw]

its not voluntary. kids in the uk have compulsary school uniforms

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[Colin Smith]

Give em a Nokia N95. Load up a jabber client which can post the encrypted GPS co-ordinates and IMEI number to those you trust. Someone nicks the phone, you know exactly where they are.

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[fastest fascist]

Seems to me it's part of a broad psy-ops venture on the part of the british government. Throw out enough new surveillance methods for "security" reasons, thus beating in to the minds of the population at large the implied message that everyone is a potential threat - to themselves or others. That's why you need surveillance, right? After a while, people will get used to it and will no longer question their government's need to know every detail of their lives. Hell, they'll welcome the daily scrutiny.

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[xaxa]

"Gee, these two students have been sticking together all day... and they don't even have all the same classes! Send someone to take a peek."

If the students are that stupid, they deserve to be caught. But it greatly illustrates why a system like this is really bad idea. A school a friend of mine goes to has a swipe-card registration system -- all the students have to swipe a card reader to say they're present. What actually happens is they pay other students £1 or 2 a day to swipe for them -- you can make £20 a day like this!

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[backwardMechanic]

Well, Sir, I was drying my shirt in the microwave and now the tag doesn't seems to work. But I promise I'll stay in school....

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[Eivind]

Repeated claims that something isn't a privacy issue doesn't make it not a privacy-issue.

Children have a rigth to privacy too. Like for adults, the right isn't absolute, and theirs is invaded more often than that of adults, but that is not the same thing as saying it is zero.

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[digitig]

You clearly have not meet any English school kids. Really. I have two living in my house. Your point is?

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[SteveAyre]

"The kids are supposed to learn how to be responsible, make their own decisions, and generally become members of the society. They cannot learn that while knowing they are under a constant surveillance with no way to escape."

Strange, with the amount of CCTV and data mining around lately that sounds like pretty good practice for when they become adult members of our current society.

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[The -e**(i*pi)]

I'm in a class of about 75 students and the professor calls out roll EVERY class. We also pass around a sheet to sign near the end of EVERY class. and my last name starts with an A so I have to get there on time.

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[Stooshie]

... using that logic, I suggest you turn off your computer right away ...

Our computers are not involved in life or death situations (at least mine's not) but kids in a burning building is life or death and if RFID tags do go wrong it could be curtains.

Tags will be used by lazy teachers more interested in their next coffee breeak rather than the welfare of the children in their care. (A childs welfare involves a lot more than knowing where they are, and this system will be used as a replacement for caring for the children).

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[Killjoy_NL]

That's a bit harsh isn't it?
putting your kid in the microwave?

Ah well, to each his own I guess ;)

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[GreyPoopon]

I'm in a class of about 75 students and the professor calls out roll EVERY class.

Is this college? If so, this is taking the nanny-effect to an unprecedented level. Even though I haven't been in college in many years, I still believe it ought to be the student's choice on whether to attend the lectures. From personal experience, I have found that skipping lectures is a very bad idea, but it's completely unacceptable to waste the time of 75 students who paid good money for the class just so that you can make examples of the one or two who don't want to attend. In most cases, the difference will show up on their test scores. And if it doesn't, then as a teacher why would you care? The student obviously learned what they were supposed to.

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[thehatmaker]

The idea is to "discover" the shortcomings you mention after this "its only in the clothing" implementaion, and then to "improve" the system.
Yes folks, RFIDs implated in your FACE!

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[Anonymous Coward]

Finally, somebody who understands the business of government.

There's a reason why government expands in both revenue and power over the people each year -- and it's not because making government bigger is unprofitable for those in the business of government.

It's important to understand that no government in history has ever significantly and permanentely reduced its power or revenue through the process of democracy. Governments only get bigger throughout their lifetimes, never smaller -- power is always concentrated further in the hands of the few over time, never decentralized or abandoned. If that doesn't raise a giant red flag about the nature of power (that special "right" to employ coercion as a means), then I reckon we may as well eliminate the words "freedom" and "human rights" from our vocabulary right now.

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[timforshaw]

And we will in fact create a generation that not only accepts monitoring, but demands that their own children are more monitored: "I was monitored, and it never hurt me". I see no evidence that kids are 'out of control', rather that they can't go and do kids stuff without us seeing it any more - there are no fields/vacant lots for them to explore in anymore. Let's just offer suitable guidance and let them get on with it.

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[tygerstripes]

Absolutely - they're solving nothing with these half-measures. They need to do it properly and tattoo barcodes on the backs of their hands! Head-count would be a doddle then.

This is a trial. For the financial and human-rights costs involved, the benefits of this system are near-zero. Hopefully the "Leave Them Kids Alone" group will find their protests unnecessary when the bottom-line becomes clear.

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[The -e**(i*pi)]

I had a professor last semester that was confused by a similar topic last semester and he said in class something like: "I am not going to cut class short because you are paying for 50 minutes of education and you should receive 50 minutes of education, if you paid $10 to see a movie and it was cut short, you would be mad; however, if I ended class early, you would be happy. I just don't understand it.' also in our College, all 100 and 200 level classes are required by university policy to take attendance. that said, very few 100 and 200 level classes have attendance taken. in one 100 level class (taught by one of the guys that made the original IBM Personal Computer) he basically said, 'he did not care if we come, or leave at any point in class; however, if we have a cellphone it must either be set to ring a tune we can sing along with, or be off.' and I have another professor where his attendance is basically random weekly pop quizzes. once we had the quiz at the beginning of class and with 15 minutes left 3 students picked up their bags and left during his lecture. He stopped class and called out roll based on all the quizzes in the front and found the 3 people who were not in class but had taken the quiz. I assume they did not get credit for the quiz. The rest do not really take attendance, and one class is usually half full and I was surprised how full the room seemed for the exam. (the average was about 50% and was lower than the median) needless to say we have a wide range of interpretations of the word attendance.

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[RadioElectric]

To be honest, I don't think fires are that much of a danger for schools. A school near me burnt down but that was at night and some suspect that it was an insurance job to build a nicer school in its place (that they just happened to already have the plans drawn up for). Have any students died in school fires recently? It seems like an optimum situation to be able to safely evacuate from. Fire exits everywhere, fire-proof doors, regular drills, somebody in front of each class who can lead students to safety. That's not even mentioning how many fire alarms and bells the schools have so that it's impossible NOT to know that you should be evacuating.

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[ArcherB]

Our computers are not involved in life or death situations (at least mine's not) but kids in a burning building is life or death and if RFID tags do go wrong it could be curtains.


I don't think you understand. A kid wearing a RFID tag that works even 50% of the time means that he stands a 50% better chance of being found than a kid with no tag at all. Why is that so hard to understand?


Tags will be used by lazy teachers more interested in their next coffee breeak rather than the welfare of the children in their care. (A childs welfare involves a lot more than knowing where they are, and this system will be used as a replacement for caring for the children).

Not necessarily. This is a tool to aid, not replace. Do chalk boards keep teachers from talking? Do books keep teachers from teaching? Why would RFID tags make teachers stop seeing students?

Re:Well

[illegalcortex]

I wish I could be so optimistic. It just seems like London's camera network all over again. There have been studies that show it's not actually effective in solving crimes. Yet that doesn't keep people from pushing it forward. And now with the "terrorism" fallback excuse, it will get even worse.

Re:Well

[Stooshie]

... A kid wearing a RFID tag that works even 50% of the time means that he stands a 50% better chance of being found than a kid with no tag at all ...

Not if they have started relying on RFID tags and stopped taking roll calls. In that case all the children are 50% worse off (or 50% of the children are worse off, whichever).

If they still have to take roll calls then what's the point in having the tags at all?

Re:Well

[illegalcortex]

C'mon, no need to be that drastic. Just give them tracking collars.

That explode when removed.

Re:Well

[hsqueak]

The senior-equivalents in our school had swipe cards, but that was because we were permitted to just come in for classes - we didn't need to stay in school for study periods. And strangely, the teachers *did* notice if someone was electronically present but not in classes... I remember one person getting caught, and the practice soon stopped.

Re:Well

[internewt]

Is it just me or wouldn't this allow bad people to track children as well? Yes, but its OK, the system will have a password. Teachers are well known to be fully technically competent people, and never would have the password written down on paper on a pull-out bit of desk.... I think the current one is PENCIL though ;)

Re:Well

[ArcherB]

Since you didn't read beyond my first point, let me quote myself:

Not necessarily. This is a tool to aid, not replace. Do chalk boards keep teachers from talking? Do books keep teachers from teaching? Why would RFID tags make teachers stop seeing students?

Re:Well

[pthor1231]

A university I took some classes at in high school actually had a campus wide policy that the professor of the class could outright fail you for missing > 10% of class meetings. That means 3-5 classes, depending on meeting frequency. God that was awful.

Re:Well

[Kingrames]

Well, up until they list 25 casualties in a school fire, and call the parents informing them of their children's deaths, all because the rfid chips were flushed down the toilets in protest.

Re:Well

[kenj0418]

The kids are supposed to learn how to ... become members of the society. They cannot learn that while knowing they are under a constant surveillance with no way to escape.

They can if that's the society they are being trained to be a part of -- which apparently it is.

Re:Well

[susano_otter]

Here is a radical concept. Stop treating children like animals and start treating them like human beings.

Not radical enough. Animals need food. If we're going to stop treating children like animals, we should stop feeding them too, right? Who knew Somalia and Ethiopia were the most enlightened places on Earth?

I know, I know: Feeding animals is different from feeding children. So here's a radical concept: Tracking animals is different from tracking children.

Not only that, but we don't even track all animals all the time. We only track some animals some of the time. So it's not like tracking things is automatically treating them like animals. We track people, too: Paramedics, police officers, nuclear power plant workers... You could just as easily say that by tracking kids, we're treating them like mature adults with significant responsibilites and in whom we have placed great trust. How's that for a radical concept?

Re:Well

[jamie(really)]

Alternatively, there is a fire and the RFID system says everyone was beeped out of the gate because little Johnny is carrying little Jimmy's shirt, while Jimmy burns to death alone and confused.

Or a firefighter dies rescuing a shirt, when its owner is outside having a smoke (maybe even caused the fire).

There are two fundamental problems with this system - forget the moral implications - just stick to the facts.

1. Automation breeds complacency.

2. Kids are not fucking stupid.

Complacency is fine if the system really is foolproof: it works and it does what each user expects. Unfortunately, this system is not.

I advocate a campaign of civil disobedience where everyone carries around RFID transmitters that give out incorrect information. While we're on the subject, I would also advocate putting everyone's finger prints online and offering a service to print copies of other peoples finger prints onto gel pads. If the government wants to store private details, the only way to stop them is by making them not-private.

Re:Well

[Jon Kay]

I don't think you understand. A kid wearing a RFID tag that works even 50% of the time means that he stands a 50% better chance of being found than a kid with no tag at all. Why is that so hard to understand?

Yes, it is hard to understand. The chance that said deadly fire or other deadly emergency is utterly tiny. So that means there's half that utterly tiny chance of it saving your kid.

Meanwhile, there's a 100% chance you're violating the kid's privacy and trust.

Re:Well

[Meski]

Escalation for that is RFID screening helmets.

Re:Well

[susano_otter]

Actually, I was simply responding to the faulty logic that "tracking = treating like an animal".

Tracking teenagers in this way may be a bad idea for all the reasons you claim.

oh lawd

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a bad idea, waste of money, etc etc etc

also first post

government logic

[User 956]

Ten kids in a pilot program in the Hungerhill School in Edenthorpe, England will participate in a program that puts RFID chips in students' uniforms to keep track of their whereabouts.

Clearly, this measure is needed, as the government doesn't yet have enough cameras to track everyone individually.

Re:government logic

[mdwh2]

Talking of which, that reminds me, the other week I saw mobile CCTV police vans. I don't know if these are a new thing or not. I would've taken a photo of it, but I feared getting arrested for doing so...

Re:government logic

[Anonymous Coward]

But is this measure enough?

Re:government logic

[Anonymous Coward]

mobile cctv vans are not new.
At least one place they are used is at football matches.

Re:government logic

[Gordonjcp]

They're used outside schools a lot. We have a lot of problems in rough areas with gang violence. A school not so very far from me had one stabbing death a *week*, always as the children were leaving for the day, until they basically started saturating the surrounding mile or so with police cars and sticking a couple of CCTV vans near the trouble hotspots.

You see an invasion of privacy, I see a direct reduction in the number of dead kids.

Re:government logic

[mdwh2]

You see an invasion of privacy

I never said it was an invasion of privacy.

Curious it doesn't seem to have been mentioned on Slashdot, since I know a lot of people here seem to be strongly against the fixed CCTVs.

(Also in your example, I suspect the simple presence of police had an effect. Although I suppose that is one way that mobile CCTVs aren't as bad as the fixed ones, in that they only see what the police officers would be seeing anyway, and that the presence of cameras is at least a lot more obvious...)

Obligatory

[Bananatree3]

*You, Yes You, Stand Still Laddie!*

When we grew up and went to school, there were certain teachers who would hurt the children anyway they could
by pouring their derision upon anything we did
exposing any weakness however carefully hidden by the kids.

But in the town it was well known
When they got home at night their fat and psychopathic wives
Would thrash them within inches of their lives!

We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

(A bunch of kids singing) We don't need no education
We don't need no thought control
No dark sarcasm in the classroom
Teachers leave them kids alone
Hey! Teacher! Leave us kids alone!
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
All in all you're just another brick in the wall.

"Wrong, Guess again!
Wrong, Guess again!
If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding.
How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
You! Yes, you behind the bike sheds, stand still laddie!"

Daily Mail

[Anonymous Coward]

Am I the only one who thinks that the "Leave Them Kids Alone" website would be more convincing if it didn't use the Daily Mail?

Re:Daily Mail

[mdwh2]

Me too. I do find it rather odd when they seem to be at the forefront of defending civil liberties. I'm not sure what to think when that happens.

reverse psychology

[User 956]

I think this is a very responsible use of "human monitoring". Its voluntary, its in there CLOTHES, and its only useful at school.

Yeah, but when you start requiring specific clothes, all you're going to do is entice the teenagers to get naked. You don't want to have naked teenagers on your hands, do you? I know I would. I mean, wouldn't. Right.

Re:reverse psychology

[GenP]

Might want to cut down on the Sex Panther. Looks like it's starting to affect your brainulation.

Re:reverse psychology

[muppetchicken]

Considering these people are underaged I certainly hope you wouldn't. Or are you someone who gets off on underage naked kids? I'm sure that the GP "gets off on underage naked kids" and not making a joke about tracking UK students with RFID chips in their clothing. I'm glad you're here to keep watch on such amoral people. Do you have a newsletter that I can subscribe to?

Re:reverse psychology

[digitig]

A few of them will not be underage -- most pupils will have their 16th birthday in their final year, and the age of consent in the UK is 16. It is cutting things a bit fine, though.

Re:reverse psychology

[c6gunner]

Right. Better toss a burqa on those girls. Wouldn't want some sicko being attracted to sexually mature females!

Re:reverse psychology

[name*censored*]

>> I'm sure that the GP "gets off on underage naked kids" and not making a joke about tracking UK students with RFID chips in their clothing. I'm glad you're here to keep watch on such amoral people. Do you have a newsletter that I can subscribe to?

Yes.,

Re:reverse psychology

[edittard]

I assume the name "misser of the joke" was already taken?

Re:reverse psychology

[dunng808]

I had no problem with my teenage sons taking off their clothes. It was picking them up and putting them in the hamper, there was the problem. Nothing like have a middle-aged middle-of-the-night need to pee and tripping over rancid smelling boxer shorts left on the bathroom floor.

Zeitgeist

[amplusquem]

It's happening:

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

No big deal

[BadAnalogyGuy]

1) Kids still need to have a physical presence. If they are not in attendance, but their shirt seems to be walking around the school, then it is clear that they have deliberately tried to circumvent the requirement to be in school during school hours.

2) RFID is only an identifier, not a tracker. For someone to actively track a kid, they'd still have to follow the tried and true method of skulking and bush-hiding and slow van driving.

I made the comment earlier that SecurityFocus and Bruce Schneier were causing more damage than good due to chicken-little-ism and this kind of reactionary idiocy. The "security experts" are fighting against Big Brother, but that's not where the security problems lie. Big Brother, at any time, can subpoena all your stuff and any security measures you've taken are for naught. It's the people who don't have the legal power to require you to open up that you need to be secure from. RFID does not make you any less secure because it doesn't increase your "securable surface area". It requires the same proximity that sight does, and if you're that close to danger already, then your risk quotient is too high to be affected by RFID.

Re:No big deal

[lahvak]

Kids still need to have a physical presence. If they are not in attendance, but their shirt seems to be walking around the school, then it is clear that they have deliberately tried to circumvent the requirement to be in school during school hours.

No, it's clear that some bullies stole their shirt and tossed it around the school building all day, just to get them in trouble.

Seriously, I am glad they didn't have this when I went to school. I mean, will somebody think about the kids who are tardy? No more sneaking into a classroom after the bell rings, with your friends creating a disturbance in the opposite corner of the classroom so the teacher won't notice? No more climbing into the school building through the kitchen window after the main entrance was locked at five till eight? Holly crap, I would actually have to come to school on time!

Re:No big deal

[fredklein]

If they are not in attendance, but their shirt seems to be walking around the school,

And how will you know that?

If you can keep track of the students bodies, you don't need the RFID in their clothes. OTOH, if you cannot keep track of them, then you will not find out their RFID is present, but they are not.

RFID is only an identifier, not a tracker.

If there are enough sensors everywhere, it can be used to track. One at each doorway in school, now you know which room the kid is in. One in each quarter of the room, and you know if he's at the front/back, left/right in the room. 100 in a grid on the ceiling, and you know within a few feet.

As for tracking outside the school, that's just a matter of time. The schoolbus will have one at the door, so you'll know he got on/off the bus. In cities (where school kids use public transit), ALL public busses could have a sensor at the door.
Bus stops, lamp posts, etc could all have sensors. 'For the safety of the children.'

Then it's trivial to start tracking other RFIDs, not just the school kid's.

Re:No big deal

[fractoid]

As for tracking outside the school, that's just a matter of time. The schoolbus will have one at the door, so you'll know he got on/off the bus. In cities (where school kids use public transit), ALL public busses could have a sensor at the door. Bus stops, lamp posts, etc could all have sensors. 'For the safety of the children.'

Then it's trivial to start tracking other RFIDs, not just the school kid's. This raises an interesting question to me - how many of our clothes/shoes/backpacks etc. already have RFID tags built into them? They're everywhere in the retail industry. It seems to me that you could build up an identifiable profile of a person from 3-5 consistent tags in items that they regularly wear. From that point of view, distributed RFID sensors linked to a database could be a very interesting privacy issue.

Re:No big deal

[__aawavt7683]

1) If [...] their shirt seems to be walking around the school...

2) RFID is only an identifier, not a tracker.

Wait, what? make up your mind -- either you can track someone with it or you can't.

Personally, I'm quite sure they could trivially easily. Read other posts here for comments on that. I was particularly surprised about a comment of how someone could get beat up and their shirt stolen, just to get them in trouble.. and sadly, I can easily see this happening. I wouldn't even expect a teacher to believe the kid if it were the case, either.

Ripping small patches out (the RFID tags) and taping them to someone's back, then they've been wandering around with that person all day long. Stick it on the wall by the girls locker room, grab it back later, suddenly they were spying for a while.. who knows. The possibilities seem horrendous.

-DrkShadow

Re:No big deal

[Anonymous Coward]

Big Brother, at any time, can subpoena all your stuff and any security measures you've taken are for naught. Fucking Reality TV! It won't be happy until it takes over everything!

Silly brits!

[Anonymous Coward]

"Hungerhill" School in "Edenthorpe"? No wonder we rebelled against the Crown.

Re:Silly brits!

[dwater]

Yeah, traitors. I always wondered why it was called, "The Patriot" - should have been called, "The Traitor".

Scott Adams

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to have to ask Scott Adams too stop predicting the future. I thought the locater tags were supposed to be a joke.

Re:Scott Adams

[Anonymous Coward]

Not sure when it turned up in Dilbert, but a research lab in Cambridge had an "active badge" program in the early 90s:

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3047

(obligatory completely unfounded conspiracy theory - the Olivetti Research Lab was replaced with / became the Microsoft Research Cambridge Lab)

Why not cut out the foreplay...

[jaxtherat]

And go straight to electronic tagging? Better yet, lock them up in school like battery hens... I'm sure a frighteningly large percentage of parents would approve, what with focus groups scaring the bejeesus out of parents on a daily basis with alarmist bullshit.

Re:Why not cut out the foreplay...

[SeaFox]

And go straight to electronic tagging?

That's funny. I thought RFID was electronic tagging.

I know, I know. You meant in the person's body, not their clothing. We can defeat this program with some carefully placed rumors of kidnappers wrapping kids in tinfoil before running off with them.

This was already being done in the US

[Anonymous Coward]

There's a school in Kansas City, MO (can't remember the name of it) that did something very much like this after the Columbine High School shootings. They have (or had) armed guards posted at the entrances to the school and they forced all students, faculty, and visitors to wear "ID badges" on cords around their necks that were credit card-sized thick plastic cards, each containing something tracked from the (very expensive-seeming) "command center" thing near the administrative offices. Anyone found without a badge was supposed to be taken and arrested. This was in addition to extensive x-ray/metal detector scanners installed at the entrances.

Re:This was already being done in the US

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

My high school actually got that system the year before Colombine (there were gang problems), but the year after I graduated. They didn't actually arrest people like they said they would, they just made them pay a $1 fine, write their name on a piece of paper and pin it to their shirt. My younger brother ended up paying close to $20 before he realized that he just needed to walk around with a piece of paper on his shirt to avoid having to pay the fine. Never remembered to bring his id. Still cant believe it took him that long to figure it out.

How can you have any pudding...

[Anonymous Coward]

...if you don't eat your meet?

(Oh it's insightful, alright. If you don't get it then you're just shallow.)

Re:How can you have any pudding...

[Stooshie]

...if you dinna' eat yir meet?

You winna' get yir poodin'

(It was a Scot's accent if I remember)

Well, we had him on grand theft

[istartedi]

But the record plainly shows he spent all day up inside the ceiling tiles. Off to search for the real perpetrator, cheery-o!

That fresh from the dryer feeling.

[Kaenneth]

Clothes fresh from the dryer feel wonderfully warm and cozy, but who has the time to wait for the dryer to warm up all the way?

A quick, easy solution is to pop your clothes in the Microwave for a few seconds, and Presto!, warm and fuzzy!

Just don't try it with metal zippers or buttons, nylon might melt, you might start a fire...

Re:That fresh from the dryer feeling.

[evanbd]

Have you ever tried tossing an RFID tag into the microwave? I've done that with a couple I've gotten in books. Antennas designed to receive microwaves produce an impressive spark show...

Re:That fresh from the dryer feeling.

[Ethanol-fueled]

True story: I started a fire in my microwave because I used it to dry wet socks.
Don't try that at home, kids.

Re:That fresh from the dryer feeling.

[Doug Neal]

True story: I started a fire in my microwave because I used it to dry wet socks.
Don't try that at home, kids. Getting a bit OT here but never mind. I dry my socks in the microwave regularly, which has always been a great source of mirth to my friends for some unfathomable reason. I almost did what you did, the other week, although I just ended up with holes rather than a full-on fire. Thanks for the heads-up on the potential dangers of this practice!

these will only be effective if they are implanted

[night_flyer]

it will also work great for regular folks as well, especially in the US where we have an illegal immigration problem... no chip, no paycheck!

oh wait... where have I heard about that before?

Subdermal

[Anonymous Coward]

"Now it's easy to cut class; just ask someone to carry your shirt around the building while you're elsewhere.'"

That's easy to fix, just go to subdermal implants.

Re:Subdermal

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Some kids may produce intereference that blocks outbound RF. Better to use tags hung through pierced ears.

RFID in a shirt?

[martin-boundary]

Think again! Those chips are going to be sewn in right down there in the kids' underpants.

Incidentally, if any gnomes are reading this:

??? = RFID

Re:RFID in a shirt?

[witte]

Oh well, this year, it's an RFID chip. Next year, an 80 ft satellite dish ?

Re:RFID in a shirt?

[thewiz]

Think again! Those chips are going to be sewn in right down there in the kids' underpants.

If that's the case, then we'll see a return of the 1960's where girls are burning their bras.
Of course, the boys won't mind it a bit.

Cancer

[Nicolay77]

I remember a study that linked implanted chips with cancer.

Surely, in this case they are only in the clothes, but still too close to the body.

And what about all the X/raying people in airports and other places?

Will you trade your health for (a little) security?

Re:Cancer

[thatskinnyguy]

Yes they are in clothes. And yes they do emit RF (duh). But we're exposed to RF everyday whether we like it or not. All of those radio and broadcast television waves are pulsing through your body even as you read this.

If the tags are being used for something like a check-in check-out system for kids in schools, more than likely, the tag will be passive and only emit a wave when exposed to a reader 1 meter away. (Reader in a doorway)

If these were used as an active tracking system with an active tag, then I might be worried about the unknown of long-term exposure. I haven't found any data yet on the effects of prolonged exposure to active RFID tags. But in all reality it would require an internal power source. That isn't too conducive to going through the wash. So I wouldn't worry.

Re:Cancer

[Nicolay77]

What about this:
http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/09/rfid-implants-linked-to-cancer-in-lab-tests/
and this:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=2848

Sure there are lots of radiation going around our bodies. But the signal strengths are very dissimilar, because of the distances involved with the emitters. When one of these emitters is in our skin or inside us, that distance becomes zero or almost zero. Only one cancer cell is needed to start the disease.

ok, seriously

[superwiz]

didn't they just find that those are directly related to cancer? are they seriously putting carcinogenic devices in students uniforms? which one is it this time? "think of the children"? or "it's for their safety"?

Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!

[Prius]

Aren't these the chips that give you cancer? Should we be worried about that at all?

Cool post!

[BadAnalogyGuy]

I can't believe I get modded down at all for any post when there are people like the poster above who fights the windmills of Big Brother with half-baked pseudoscience.

Big deal

[illegalcortex]

There's a huge difference between the government being able to subpoena your records and records of your movement (e.g. cellphone provider logs) and the government being able to have "always-on" monitoring of you at all times "just in case." Automated tracking via software elevates government snooping to whole new levels that would never be possible with simple "sight." It's not really fair to compare the two.

Your other points are somewhat valid, but if you can't see that, I don't think you're qualified to make any judgments on Schneier or other security experts.

Re:Big deal

[BadAnalogyGuy]

After reading your other posts in this thread, I'm not quite sure whether to take your criticism as a compliment or ignore you altogether.

Re:Big deal

[illegalcortex]

After reading your other posts (and responding to them to point out the errors), I stand by my original statements.

Idiocracy!

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you ever see that movie? It's great!! One of the funniest parts is where the guy goes to doctors office. The doctor freaks out becuase the guy has no registration tatoo? The doctor cries out "UNSCANNABLE!". Probably we'll be the last generation of humans who'll formally be called this. Our children will probably welcome a tracking chip or tatoo. I think it has sinister implications to be abused to differentiate between economic, ethnic, social, and breeding characteristics(bogus shit by the way).

This isn't a way to solve safety issues in society. It's more of a marketing aspect sold to the masses to provide a false sense of security like a car alarm. I'M NOT BITING ON THIS BOLOGNA STICK! This is a gateway to getting fucked on all holes! You're life's over once they implant the chip, tatoo your rear, or stick it up your nose like Arnold Swarzennegger in that Sci-Fi movie with the psychic midget in that guys gut in the alien temple! Come on? You know THAT movie??

Re:Idiocracy!

[glittalogik]

This is a gateway to getting fucked on all holes! "Uh... This goes in your mouth. This one goes in your ear. And this one goes in your butt. (Joe puts wires in, machine beeps) Shit. Hang on a second. This one... Uh... This one... this one goes in your mouth..."

But in the end

[kitsunewarlock]

England Prevails.

Re:But in the end

[PinkyDead]

Airstrip One Prevails.

Danger?

[snl2587]

What I still don't understand is why people insist on personal identifying technology. Is the world really more dangerous now than in the past? Or is it merely perceived that way? And why am I asking a question that there's already an obvious answer to?

Re:Danger?

[kitsunewarlock]

Considering past inventions like forks were made to stop constant dinner-time stabbings and assassinations with guests own knives...

And rapiers were common fashion accessories...

And dueling was a common method of solving arguments...

And being in a TRUE imperialist state meant at any time your farm could be pillaged by a warring nation?

And yeah, I know; countries still take over each other. But its slowed down since the turn of the century. Iraq is like what...1 country in 5+ years? Lord...that's slow...very...very slow...and its still not well integrated. ...but yes, I'd say its safer now then in the past with some noteable exceptions. At least if you "follow the rules and play nice". Revolutionaries have it tougher this and the next few generations...

Re:Danger?

[Chrisje]

Good question. I don't have any data on Violent Crimes for the globe, but when I had a discussion with an Uncle of mine in Holland, I pulled the Central Bureau of Statistics' reports on it, and saw that since the 1920's there has been a sharp decline in all manners of violent crime. It took the wind out of his "Things used to be better" rant.

In the mean time, for many countries, infant mortality is down, life expectancy is up and literacy is at an all time high. Surely this means that overall the situation is safer than, say, during the dark ages or the Industrial Revolution. It is my sincere belief that the media's hunger for sensation and public stupidity account for most of the perceived lack of safety in society.

Now everyone's been quoting Pink Floyd on this topic. Pink Floyd being a bunch of pretentious British Wankers on too much LSD, I would not quote them. Instead, I would like to bring to your attention the most sardonic, perfectionist and incisive band the world has seen to date: Steely Dan.

Im not one to look behind I know that times must change
But over there in Barrytown they do things very strange
And though you're not my enemy
I like things like they used to be
And though you'd like some company
I'm standing by myself
Go play with someone else
I can see by what you carry that you come from Barrytown

Don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard
I just read the daily news and swear by every word
And don't think that I'm out of line
For speaking out for what is mine
Id like to see you do just fine
But look at what you wear
And the way you cut your hair
I can see by what you carry that you come from Barrytown

5 minutes

[Anonymous Coward]

That's about how long it will take some inventive kid with a pair of nail scissors to remove said RFID tag. Once removed give it to a friend (maybe draw straws to see who's the unlucky attendee on any given day) and skive off to your hearts content without the teacher suspecting a thing. Everyone wins!

"cut class"?

[dwater]

The word is, "Skive".

two words

[drDugan]

Child abuse.

These two words describe a situation where an abuse is perpetrated on a child.

These people are children, and probably do not have the full context to understand just how bad life can get when they are older, and realize that most of the owrld is out for themselves and there are no parents or teachers around to protect them.

As for calling it abuse: using tech like this to track other people has not yet become abuse - but I feel strongly that is exactly where this trend will go. It will migrate from voluntary to beneficial to compulsory and eventually, to involuntary. Already in the US and in bars in Latin America do we hear about people putting them in their skin. In the name of safety, in the name of peace, in the name of efficiency, in the name of prosperity and growth and everything good, people will eventually be forced to accept the tracking chip that tracks them cradle to grave. And when we are there, we will look back at these voluntary, ignorant, precious children and realize that it was an abuse to start the process.

Somehow in this techstrubation system I see research like this that has completely lost touch with what is good about living simply, without gadgets or crutches or machines that inevitably make things better for a minority of people in power, but worse for a majority of not-in-power people.

Re:two words

[owlnation]

Somehow in this techstrubation system I see research like this that has completely lost touch with what is good about living simply, without gadgets or crutches or machines that inevitably make things better for a minority of people in power, but worse for a majority of not-in-power people.

Yes, great post. This is of course occurring in the UK, where in the past 5 years alone more tech has been employed to monitor more people than anywhere else. Currently the monitoring has proved worthless for its stated purpose, yet more appears every day.

In theory, the UK is a few minor legal changes away from a totalitarian nightmare. In practice, there is no need to make those legal changes. The UK population is currently malleable, gullible and very easy to control -- as long as they have credit, cars, and alcohol, and are afraid of irrational abstract enemies like terrorists and pedophiles, you can get them to do anything.

Re:two words

[Anonymous Coward]

voluntary to beneficial to compulsory and eventually, to involuntary

Compulsory and involuntary are the same thing: both mean that coercion will be employed against you if you don't conform -- and eventually deadly force if you dare resist in self-defense. Although this government program isn't compulsory (yet) in terms of "active" participation, it is most certainly compulsory in terms of financial participation. You didn't think you actually had a choice whether or not to fund this program, did you?

One thing is for damn sure: whether this program is continued or abandoned, government wins either way, and you lose either way.

Re:two words

[Anonymous Coward]

I see a difference between the two only in the way they are handled, and how explicit the story is about participation. The result is the same (compliance) for the person involved.

When a program is compulsory, the person is forced to make the choice to participate, but the reasons are not explicit, and the program is not called "mandatory". For example, in the US today, it is compulsory to have government issued photo ID. No one will tell you explicitly that it is required, (in fact, when you dig, they tell you the opposite) but so much depends on having one (travel, banking, hotels, and lately, grocery store payments) - you basically cannot function in the society without one. The individual is effectively forced to choose to have one. Incidentally, I tell the grocery store clerks to politely fuck off when they ask for my ID.

When a program is involuntary, the facade of choice is no longer present. Basically, people are told by the state that they must comply for reasons within the program. Vaccinations for school children, for example, in public schooling are involuntary. Children are given them and no one is given a choice. In these two examples here, I don't see these programs as sinister or bad - but I use them as examples to distinguish the two cases. Internment camps and prison are examples of involuntary state programs that are often sinister.

Primarily, the difference occurs when the power differential gets large enough to allow the state to require involuntary participation.

Re:these will only be effective if they are implan

[Eli Gottlieb]

I'M A DELIVERY BOY!!!!

Do you really want the obvious "solution"?

[NotQuiteReal]

There seems to be a lot of thrashing about on the issues of privacy, identity theft, and security, etc...

The obvious answer is to submit everyone to an incontrovertible form of ID, so that you know that anyone presenting themselves as someone is that somebody...

Soon (hand-wavingly-vague here), there will be the technological means to do that.

Do you really want that?

Right now you can always say "it wastn't me" and hopefully get a majority jury to agree with you. Do you want a future where there is no leeway?

Re:Do you really want the obvious "solution"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clarke's First Law of Criminology:

A sufficiently canny villain with a good grasp of technology is indistinguishable from someone with an "incontrovertible" form of ID.

This just in

[PPH]

Sensors have been added to warn school officials if the students' pants are being worn too low.

Re:This just in

[GreyPoopon]

Sensors have been added to warn school officials if the students' pants are being worn too low.,

Hmmm, I think any invasion of privacy such as _that_ would be a benefit to society. I've noticed that the vast majority of the teenage females who are wearing their trousers the lowest are generally the ones who shouldn't be wearing any low-cut style at all. When you have fat rolls hanging out the top of your britches, or bending over makes sure everybody around you gets a closeup view of the moon, it's time to either lose weight or look for a more flattering style.

Re:This just in

[Anonymous Coward]

>>Sensors have been added to warn school officials if the students' pants are being worn too low.

..the contractors then realised they could simultaneously save money and increase accuracy by having every warning permanently flashing.

oblig simpsons

[evwah]

Skinner: "I wish more students had agreed to these electronic tracking implants... we only had one volunteer!"

*cut to Martin sitting happily in class*

What he said.

[Jethro]

I would sign up for such a program SPECIFICALLY to mess with it.

Re:What he said.

[witte]

Unfortunately, that would teach them the flaws of the system, so they can iron out most of the bugs if they ever want to implement this on a larger scale.

Let's hope they realize what a horrible idea it is to treat kids like criminals by putting them under constant surveillance, and just drop the project.
Treat people like criminals, and most of them will behave like criminals.
RFID surveillance will do nothing positive for safety because it is easily circumvented. If anything, it will only piss off enough kids that they will hate going to school even more.

This amounts to control through fear. The best way to teach people to cooperate in a constructive way is through mutual respect. Kids are no angels, but this is no way to improve the situation.
(Perhaps teachers/school admins who sponsor this idea should get permanent implants so the kids can see what Mr Jones & Mrs Smith are up to in the broom cabinet during lunch breaks... I'm sure they wouldn't like that very much :-)

I tagged this "toplesscoeds"

[SeaFox]

No, ladies. Skipping class is easy! All you have to do is take off your shirts.

UDel's "ThoughtReform" a better fit for YRO

[Anonymous Coward]

Many universities try to indoctrinate students, but the all-time champion in this category is surely the University of Delaware. With no guile at all the university has laid out a brutally specific program for "treatment" of incorrect attitudes of the 7,000 students in its residence halls. The program is close enough to North Korean brainwashing that students and professors have been making "made in North Korea" jokes about the plan. The Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE) has called for the program to be dismantled.

Residential assistants charged with imposing the "treatments" have undergone intensive training from the university. The training makes clear that white people are to be considered racists - at least those who have not yet undergone training and confessed their racism. The RAs have been taught that a "racist is one who is both privileged and socialized on the basis of race by a white supremacist (racist) system. The term applies to all white people (i.e., people of European descent) living in the United States, regardless of class, gender, religion, culture, or sexuality."

FIRE reports that the university's views "are forced on students through a comprehensive manipulation of the residence hall environment, from mandatory training sessions to 'sustainability' door decorations." Residents are pressured to promise at least a 20 percent reduction in their ecological footprint and to promise to work for a "oppressed" group. Students are required to attend training sessions, floor meetings and one-on-one sessions where RAs ask personal questions such as "When did you discover your sexual identity?". Students are pressured or required to accept an array of the university's approved views. In one training session, students had to announce their opinions on gay marriage. Those who did not approve of gay marriage were isolated and heavily pressured to change their opinion.

The indoctrination program pushes students to accept the university's ideas on politics, race, sex, sociology, moral philosophy and environmentalism. The training is run by Kathleen Kerr, director of residential life, who reportedly considers it a "cutting-edge" program that can be exported to other universities around the country. Residential assistants usually provide services to residents and have light duties, such as settling squabbles among students. Kerr and her program are more ambitious. She has been quoted as saying that the job of RAs is to educate the whole human being with a "curricular approach to residential education." In this curricular approach, students are required to report their thoughts and opinions. One professor says: "You have to confess what you believe to the RA." The RAs write reports to their superiors on student progress in cooperating with the "treatment."

The basic question about the program is how did they think they could ever get away with this? Most campus indoctrination is more subtle, with some wiggle room for fudging and deniability. This program implies a frightening level of righteousness and lack of awareness. But the RAs have begun to back away a step or two. After telling the students the program is mandatory, the RAs sent an email saying the sessions are actually voluntary.

----------------
In one-on-one sessions with RAs (Resident Assistants), University of Delaware students were questioned: "When did you discover your sexual identity?" In dorm meetings, they were pressured to pledge their allegiance to university-approved views on race, sexuality and environmentalism. When FIRE (Foundation for Individual Rights in Education) spotlighted the indoctrination, a university official defended the "free exchange of ideas." A few days later, the program was canceled.

How can academics talk about "critical thinking" while turning residence halls into reeducation camps? Well, they meant well. Everyone agrees they meant well. If only academics were capable of thinking critically about their own assumptions.

Thanks to FIRE's links to ResLife

Re:UDel's "ThoughtReform" a better fit for YRO

[Anonymous Coward]

All this just because they did not admit you little Timmy? Oh, now don't just crawl into the corner and suck your thumb AGAIN... Uhhh, kids.

Not all children are equal

[jihadist]

Stop making smart children do dumb things because dumb children always do dumb things. Let nature sort it out. Yes, dumb children will die, but you don't want or need more dumb adults, do you?

Paths and Good Intentions

[headkase]

There are many good reasons for this and many equally good against. Sidestepping the whole issue all I have to say is that it sends a chill down my spine for a very simple reason: Its a step towards totalitarianism. Each little step may be small but theres a lot of future ahead to make up for that.

A really good idea!

[ppanon]

Sociopaths who want to go on killing sprees in schools shouldn't have to search in each classroom to find people to kill! We should have RFIDs attached to all the students so that the psychos can carry a detector along with lots of guns and can skip the empty classrooms to concentrate on those with the most kids. They can also make sure they don't miss anyone hiding in a closet. Heck, even regular bullies could benefit and use it to find out which entrance Johnny Victim is trying to use, thus making sure he doesn't sneak through with his lunch money intact.

These are presumably passive RFIDs so that they can last a long time without needing batteries changed, right? That way child predators can passively scan the school to find out the carrier frequency used and then put matching activator/detector devices in alleys or wooded parks so that they can know from afar when a child is walking home late at night and they can snatch it with less fear of being observed in the act or while lying in wait.

Gotta love how modern technology empowers people.
</sarcasm&irony>

Hitler-Jugend

[Anonymous Coward]

Heil Hitler.

Bloody swots!

[PHAEDRU5]

'nuff said.

Chain gangs

[flyingfsck]

Why don't they just chain the children up? That is much simpler and far more effective. http://www.unesco.org/courier/2001_06/uk/droits.htm http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/yearoftheslave.html http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/children_in_chains.pdf

uniform

[wikinerd]

So, by embedding it into the school uniform they make it part of the dress code... Whose idea is it that students should wear uniforms in the first place? I can't see any logic in this idea in a free society, although I can see that it is useful in a McDonaldised society for making children feel that behaving like robots is normal.

Re:uniform

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd have to disagree and say school uniform is a good thing. At least where I was at school, it meant that there were no arguments with the parents because I just had to have the expensive trainers that X was wearing. And also bullying was reduced and extra friendships made because the uniform was a great leveller of class - I'd be surprised how a lot of people I was friends with at school were very different outside when we'd meet up to play etc.

Note: I still think embedding RFID in the uniform is a stupid idea...

Re:uniform

[Eivind]

Dunno. Nobody wears a school-uniform here in Norway. But there's a few (imho weak, but they're there) arguments in favour of school-uniforms.

Chief among them is that it is hypothesized that when everyone wears the same clothes, this source of inequality and mob-pressure to have the coolest clothes etc diminishes, so theorethically that'd be an advantage say to poorer children.

In practice it doesn't work that way, because children aren't dumb. Sure the -clothes- may be equal, but the poor child still has the suckiest bike, the least toys, etc etc etc. Children notice in a million ways, trying to /hide/ the differences is fruitless. Making the actual differences smaller would work, as would working to increase acceptance and tolerance for differentness, though.

Re:uniform

[nagora]

I can't see any logic in this idea in a free society, although I can see that it is useful in a McDonaldised society for making children feel that behaving like robots is normal.

School uniforms are common over here and in fact combat the McDonaldised society. There is nothing better for the people who want all our kids to grow up slaves to logos and brands than sticking them in amongst a peer group of hundreds where they will be judged on how much Niké shit they can buy. A few years of that and they'll be buying whatever the marketing droids shove at them long after they leave school.

There are negatives to uniforms, but that isn't one of them.

TWW

How To Retain Your Privacy!

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of us in the know RFID poses many ethical conundrums... Basically it's a device that tracks you no matter where you go (including out of school).
No right minded adult would allow their children to be tracked by anyone with an RFID scanner (paedophiles included) by quite a reasonable distance too.

Thankfully there is a quick and easy way to take back control of your privacy... and that is with the use of a microwave... Yes, that is right... Microwave your clothes for 10 seconds or so and the RFID chips will explode, rendering all their hard spent cash on placing them there useless.
*NOTE: This will likely leave a small burn mark in your clothes, but hey, at least your untraceable now*

HEY! TEACHER! Leave them kids alone!

[Bushido Hacks]

Yes, this post is redundant. But it's better than being another brick in the wall.

RFID in schools but not in prisons?

[tftp]

Isn't it amazing that convicted criminals have more freedom inside their prison walls than the innocent children have within their school walls?

Re:RFID in schools but not in prisons?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it amazing that convicted criminals have more freedom inside their prison walls than the innocent children have within their school walls?

Ask the children if they would want to switch.

If you consider a dress code, compulsory attendance during part of the day and some limited forms of surveillance (too much surveillance, I grant you) as preferrable to being put behind bars and having your every move regulated and monitored, you and I have entirely different views on what freedom means. You will also be unpleasantly surprised once you grow up and join the workforce.

Besides, one thing has nothing to do with the other and, furthermore, the convicted criminals are adults and have certain inalienable rights we normally do not afford to children in the first place.

Regionalisms

[Anonymous Coward]

When I lived in the western US, we called it "Sloughing" (I think that's how it's spelled, though it's pronounced sluffing). Once I moved out east (Pennsylvania) they had no idea what the term meant, and I learned to just call it "skipping class."

School security

[andersh]

"..and that the system can be set up to limit access to doors for certain people at certain times, including shutting the main doors of a school to pupils during classtime."

I think that must be one of the best arguments for this kind of thing. Or at least for the United States of America where this kind of thing happens! FYI killing sprees in schools is not an issue in Europe.

As for the school bullies, you really think they won't find Johnny Victim without it? And child predators hardly need the RFID to identify school children. Just to point out the obvious, school age children don't walk home at night in their school uniforms. They change as quickly as they can because they want to wear more fashionable clothes and because they don't want to wear down their expensive uniforms.

Re:School security

[ppanon]

"..and that the system can be set up to limit access to doors for certain people at certain times, including shutting the main doors of a school to pupils during classtime."
I think that must be one of the best arguments for this kind of thing. Or at least for the United States of America where this kind of thing happens! FYI killing sprees in schools is not an issue in Europe.

Nor for the most part in Canada (with the borderline exception of Marc Lepine, who was an adult ex-student). In both cases, you have sensible gun laws that limit the number of guns easily available to kids and lunatics.

As for the school bullies, you really think they won't find Johnny Victim without it?

Well that wasn't totally serious since a bully isn't as likely to have the forethought or resources to arrange access to the proper equipment. I might say drug dealers who attract police attention if they hang around schools, but it's probably easier for them to get some junkies to help them out in exchange for a hit. Electronics don't squeal if they're caught though.

And child predators hardly need the RFID to identify school children. Just to point out the obvious, school age children don't walk home at night in their school uniforms. They change as quickly as they can because they want to wear more fashionable clothes and because they don't want to wear down their expensive uniforms.

Well, I've seen kids take the bus home in their catholic school uniforms around here. And you don't have to go too far north so that the sun sets pretty early in the winter months. It only takes a one hour, after-school, extra-curricular activity or detention for the same students to be going home in the dark. And yeah, child predators don't need RFID to find kids, but the ones that figure it out will be a lot harder to catch.

Re:School security

[ppanon]

FYI killing sprees in schools is not an issue in Europe.

Mayhaps we spoke too soon. I would say it still happens a lot more frequently in the US.

Re:School security

[athdemo]

There was a big one in Germany not too long ago either. It's not like shootings happen all the time in the U.S., that's why everyone gets so riled up about them. Maybe they occur more often here, but I wouldn't say it's a significant difference.

Re:School security

[ppanon]

Something to keep in mind is that (as the article I linked to mentions) the Finns are the country with the third highest per-capita gun ownership. Now part of the reason why shootings happen more in the US than in Germany is the relative population size. However it should be pretty obvious that gun availability in general, and to students in particular, is a huge factor in the overall risk.

China doesn't seem to have the same problems. While it's possible Chinese shootings could have occurred and been hushed up to avoid loss of face for responsible officials, I think some word or rumours would still have gotten out. It's hard to hush up something like that when there are so many witnesses.

On the other hand, I'm surprised India's class system hasn't lead to more shootings, but I guess they probably effectively still have class segregated schools. Also, potential troublesome lower class citizens with grudges deemed too dangerous due to access to weapons probably just have accidents or deadly muggings happen to them. For all of Ghandi's barb that Western civilization would be a good idea, life as an untouchable in India was pretty cheap as recently as the 80's. While that may have improved in some big cities, I doubt it's improved as much in rural areas.

Two words

[PHAEDRU5]

"Mischief managed."

It's only a question now

[Seto89]

It's only a question now till they start putting one under your skin.
But fear not! You can always take it out!

Pedobear

[Merls the Sneaky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hriJeTXxzM Pedobear approves of this technology. Seriously my kids will have any and all tracking devices disabled. The school administration can feel free to Kiss my ass while I accuse them publicly of being kiddie fiddlers.

Worryingly...

[threaded]

Worryingly no one in the chain of decision making about this project stood up and said that this is so wrong they refuse to have anything to do with it.

It is after all Hungerhill school in Edenthorpe and something needs to be done, but this is just so wrong.

This was first reported about a month ago

[simong]

Nice to see that ./ has its finger on the pulse.

It was/is a classroom project: Hungerford is a technology oriented school. All the kids involved were so voluntarily. I'm sure there are lizards in the local and national education departments who are thinking 'hmmm...' about this but it's not any kind of policy.

Safety?

[adnonsense]

the system can be set up to limit access to doors for certain people at certain times, including shutting the main doors of a school to pupils during classtime.

Let's just hope the various systems involve are intelligent enough to deal with unforseeable situations such as fires or gun-toting amok-runners.

Pink Floyd?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if they agreed on that name in partial tribute to Pink Floyd?

Okie dokie

[Kamineko]

Let's have some methods for detecting and destroying RFID gizmos.

And when that fails...

[master_p]

RFID chips in uniforms are not particularly difficult to use for illegal activities. You can leave your uniform at a particular place, then use another one (that you bought yourself) to do whatever you want...or you can switch uniform's of kids to incriminate them.

If this measure is extended to the rest of society, the problems will be huge.

RFID on clothes is destined to fail. What will the governments of the world demand then? I know, and it's scary:

IMPLANTS.

It's unavoidable...

Just another brick in the wall

[Albinoman]

I would have a hard time believing it wasn't intended to pay homage to "Another Brick in the Wall", since the songs are pretty much about the schools trying make kids conform to a mold. I would say that constantly tracking them would definitely be another brick in the wall. Strangely, I'm actually listening to the album right now.

Unaware?

[Stooshie]

... Hungerhill chair of governors, Moira Bates, said she was unaware of the project and was not prepared to comment until she had had a meeting at the school ...

WTF!? Surely the school governors passed this trial before it happened?

We're thinking of doing this at work

[HomeLights]

If they know about the RFID tags then fine, they know what they are getting. If it's a secret from the kids & parents, that is a problem. At my workplace, we're looking into RFID for PC use - you can walk up to your PC and it will log you in and when you walk away, log you out.

Bizarre.

[MythMoth]

I don't understand why so many people are frothing at the mouth about this. Juveniles do not have the same rights as adults. A school wanting to track pupils to help prevent truancy does not automatically lead to 1984 surveillance in every home.

The people who complain that it won't work are, in my opinion, over-rating the cooperative intelligence of schoolkids, but even if they're right that doesn't mean it can't be trialled.

Re:Bizarre.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is SheepDot, you're not allowed to hold that kind of opinion here. Get out.

Re:these will only be effective if they are implan

[Anonymous Coward]

Idiocracy? UNSCANNABLE !!!

My company already does this

[LordSnooty]

They make me carry round a card which uses RFID to unlock doors of my building. Oh the humanity, now they know at the flick of a switch whether I'm in the building or not.

And Schneier's point is moot, as the school will soon notice a discrepancy between the apparent presence of said student who lent his shirt to his colleague, and the teacher's testimony with their own eyes.

Re:My company already does this

[internewt]

No, your employer knows when the RFID chip is in the building....

Roll Call?

[OgreChow]

Is doing a roll call so difficult? Most of my teachers tended to know who I was, and would mark me absent if I wasn't there. Is this a crazy concept?

They'll only stop when....

[Fuzzypig]

...they can tag us at birth.

I distinctly remember the 80's TV series Tripods, where humans where "tagged" by having a giant barcode tattooed on their head ( scared me even at the age of 10 ), that way the Tripod masters could locate and identify the humans.

Re:They'll only stop when....

[hsqueak]

It wasn't a barcode, it was a metal cap that allowed the Tripods to command the humans and required the humans to obey. Generally the Tripods had no concept of "individual" humans.

Consolation Prize

[The MAZZTer]

At least the tech/nerdy kids will get a new toy to play with. I mean I'm sure they'll figure out in short order how to manipulate the data on the chip. If it's properly stored it'll be just an encrypted ID number reference to a database somewhere else. But given some of the security blunders you hear about RFID chips we'll probably see all the data stored on plaintext.

Then a student can easily change these parameters after school. When the school catches it, he just claims to not know anything about it, and the school finds it more likely the initial data was typoed or mixed up with someone else's.

Where it really gets fun is where the kid takes a RFID reader with him to school... if the RFID chip has sensitive data on it (SS num, grades?) it might reveal the downside of insecure RFID to some of the parents. And then of course if the student can hide an RFID writer and discretely use it it becomes even better! Think ten copies of a student running around without realizing it. Not ten copies of the tech kid of course, he's too smart to be caught that way.

Linky!

[Nicolay77]

http://www.engadget.com/2007/09/09/rfid-implants-linked-to-cancer-in-lab-tests/

There, for you.

Re:Linky!

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Right... The article you linked to says that the implant was linked to the cancer, not the RFID chip.

Re:Linky!

[Nicolay77]

Now we need a study to test if the materials used in the implant or the RF originating so close of the cells is the responsible for the cancer.

Any volunteers? I for one will say not.

Remember the recent study that linked brain cancer with cell phones, after ten years of use of the device, precisely in the side of the brain that is closer to the phone in use. No implant material in that case.

Would you volunteer?

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

draconian deterrence of tempering with technology

[pikine]

Using RFID for surveillance purpose... I think this is an opportunity for early-in-life training for the smart young adults on how to evade surveillance. As someone points out, RFID makes skipping classes ever easier: just ask a friend to bring your school uniform (or cut off the RFID from your clothes), and you don't have to be physically present. You can become invisible by dislodging your own RFID tag. You can do a lot of pranks using programmable RFID tags. You can steal a teacher's RFID code (without the teacher even noticing it) and then replay the code in order to gain access to teacher's office. You can blackmail somebody's lunch money by threatening to make his RFID "enter" a girl's locker room. This is all just to exploit the unenforceable assumption that RFID is physically associated with the person it represents.

When I was in high school, the magnetic strip on the student ID card was only used to check out books from the library (of course the ID has to match the bearer). They were never used to take attendance. RFID is better than magnetic strip in the sense that RFID avoids wear, so you don't need to replace your ID if you used it often. Using RFID for anything more is going to make school administration a nightmare. RFID is not meant to conduct surveillance or provide access control.

What I have problems with is how they use technology for unintended purpose (or for a false promise), and then have to make up draconian rules to deter tempering with technology. The deterrence for tempering with technology is devastating to the future of these young adults. The should have never used broken technology in the first place.

Looks like...

[Anonymous Coward]

George Orwell was only off by a few decades.

Already here in USA

[olli3]

We've got trials both here and Canada where we track kids as they get on & off school buses( which are being tracked by GPS units in real time, too). All the above noted student shenanigans with swapping cards, etc., will of course happen. Then there's lost cards, at $2-3 a pop, cost of the first issue of cards, card readers, and the fact that this is very hard to set up and keep operational. School boards don't necessarily excel at cost-benefit analysis, and are susceptible to flashy new technology that may solve problems we don't have yet. We can tell you at any point on a bus' route, when a terrorist hijacks the bus, exactly who's still on it, and how to contact their parents. This will be enormously welcome to those few parents who are able to find that their kid missed the bus or got off at the wrong stop and thus isn't one of the kidnapped ones, but it doesn't do much else in that scenario. We can email parents if a kid gets off at the wrong stop, or gives his card to someone who does, or doesn't get on in the morning. Districts are already asking us to include live video feeds from bus cameras into our GPS data feeds. Someone's going to leapfrog all this and write an app that tracks them by cell phones.

change

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously a touchy issue from the # of replies.
It's true this is a test programme for both technology and the reactions.
Yes it is totalitarian by nature and it's right to be afraid. History tells of few benevolent dictators.

So why such impotent reaction?

The most distrubing quote from TFA

[Anonymous Coward]

"We believe the system will work equally well in corporate and commercial scenarios and we're now seeking backing to help us attack a huge potential market, including the £300m annual school clothing spend."

I solemnly swear that I am up to no good

[phaunt]

"To keep track of students' whereabouts" -- is anyone else reminded of the Marauder's Map from Harry Potter?

No, it's about DIStrust

[Jon Kay]

... You could just as easily say that by tracking kids, we're treating them like mature adults with significant responsibilites and in whom we have placed great trust. How's that for a radical concept?

Tell you what - why don't you try that line out on a teenager and watch his face bob and veil with distrust.

And he'll be right, too. We call roll because we DISTRUST kids. We track police because history's shown that police often abuse the great powers given them. We track nuclear power employees because, well, we don't trust them, as they're just human, and we need the tape to understand and repair mistakes.

But, you know, RFID can never outperform a teacher. The older kids are, the more careful and tasteful teachers tend to be about taking roll, because those kids are of the age where they need to understand that school's for their benefit and come on their own responsibility. That won't happen if they're rebelling, which is alot likelier with RFID, as there's no stage of trust.

Here lies LIES?

[Rockin'Robert]

Here lies Reilly's RFID, buried today.
Led the life of Reilly, whilst Reilly was away.
RR

Re:oops...Just Aweful Being treated as Gennipegs

[Xman73x]

The Government should mind there own business The RFID Chip is the Mark of the beast!..You don't put Micro chips on Children or be it anybody!..I don't get it are they trying to treat us Humans as Animals? So they can track us down and treat us as Slaves?...

Re:oops...666?.Probabaly.sad the way the world is

[Xman73x]

I find this quite disturbing. Forcing Children to wear a tracking device on there clothes?.And you people should read about the RFID Chip.That Micro Chip is going to be used in 2008-2010 for tracking everyone of us no matter where we at.That is government control I think you people should read Romans and Revelations In the Bible it talks about One World Government.Its all coming very quick Heres a scary segment by 2008 May 12th all American's will be forced to get the RFID chip under there skin Forehead or your Palm..That is the Mark Of The Beast!..Better yet watch Left Behind.I hope you are not one of them that is Left Behind-May God Spare you from the Pit Of Hell!. Amen.

Cultures, Virii and Copycats

[andersh]

Sorry for the late reply. I don't think we spoke too soon. After all there have been school shootings in Europe, but I would call them very, very rare.

And the more interesting clue is that they were "inspired" by their American cousins. I'm not blaming the US in anyway. This is simply a case of a dangerous meme virus spreading all over the world. And just like in ordinary murder cases the copycats come out of the woodwork when it hits the press. That's why police don't want to tell everything to the press.

Gun culture is probably quite important to how and if these shootings can occur again. Finland has a solid gun culture rooted in national defense and a history of Russian aggression. And in my own country, Norway, we have if possible even more guns per capita (1:1). And we let our Home Guard men keep their AG-3 rifles at home. These guns have been used by members of the Guard to kill their wives and such. The usual reasons for homicide. Acquiring a gun outside of the armed forces is hard unless you're a member of a gun club. And illegal guns are only used by criminals. The police here still don't carry guns. As of yet we have not had any schools shootings. It could however change very soon now that a fellow Nordic person has done this.

We can't overlook the importance of securing our schools against madmen and murderers. However that's exactly why I think that RFID technologies are useful and should be developed for this purpose. Not that they will solve the problem. Mental health services and early detection have to be main weapons against this kind of thing. But being able to close our schools to keep unwanted elements outside is not a bad thing.