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No Right to Privacy When Your Computer Is Repaired
Billosaur writes "ZDNet's Police Blotter bring us the interesting story of a Pennsylvania man who brought his computer into Circuit City to have a DVD burner installed on his computer and wound up being arrested for having child pornography on his hard drive. Circuit City employees discovered the child pornography while perusing Kenneth Sodomsky's hard drive for files to test the burner, then proceeded to call the police, who arrested Sodomsky and confiscated the computer. Sodomsky's lawyer argued in court that the Circuit City techs had no right to go rifling through the hard drive, and the trial court agreed, but prosecutors appealed and the appeals court overturned the lower court's decision, based on the fact that Sodomsky had consented to the installation of the DVD drive."
When the perp has a name like "Sodomsky", I really gotta wonder if this is for real...
Cheers,
"What in the name of Fats Waller is that?"
"A four-foot prune."
Ultimately it doesn't matter whether you have a right to privacy or not. It's not a right you can rely on. Expect the monkeys to paw through your private photos & videos regardless of where you get your PC repaired.
The answer is routine encryption, but let's face it - if you need help installing a DVD drive, you're unlikely to have any idea what encryption even is....
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
That's like taking your car to get it repaired and being pissed off when you get arrested because the mechanic notices the 5 kilos of coke in your back seat. I mean, come on. The guy is an idiot and a criminal and he should go to prison.
You wanna break the law and not get caught? Use some brain cells. Sorry, if I take my computer to get it repaired (and I have), I yank the hard drives. ALWAYS. I have no expectation of privacy when I drop my computer off with a tech. I do it largely because I have client data on my computer and I would be liable if I took it in for repairs and someone stole the data. It's just common sense, and if a criminal can't amass enough common sense to do the same, well, they deserve to be arrested, tried, and convicted.
I was running a consulting company in Halifax just under a year ago, and a soldider from the armed forces had contacted me to fix his hard drive. While my tech was working on it, he discovered hundreds of gigabytes of porn, including many shots of young (pre-puberty) girls. The police had to get a search warrant for my office in order to legally seize the computer. The police did ask how we came across the images, because that was the most obvious way the case might have been thrown out. I never heard anything about the case again.
It not like the employees installed a keylogger or monitoring software and discovered it, it was on his machine when they were asked to do work on it.
Its like crying privacy rights if I ask a plumber to come fix my kitchen sink, I take off to run errands, and when I get back I am arrested for having murdered victims in my bedroom. Did the plumber violate my privacy and thus charges be thrown out?
Someone with legal knowledge please clear this up.
AFAIK, when you turn information into your lawyer, it's protected by "client-attorney priviledge". Your attorney can know that you murdered somebody, and is under no obligation to tell anybody. (In fact, he/she could be sanctioned or disbarred if they DID tell anybody)
So, could you offer a bonded "secure" computer repair service through attorneys?
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Yeah. What the fuck kind of name is "Kenneth"???
Ok, I'm guessing that the staff at the store were not police officers, so I find it hard to see how them doing something wrong would invalidate evidence gathered by the police, provided that the police did everything right. Now IANAL but it would appear to me that it basically boils down to what the police did after receiving the tip, or does US law actually say the police can't act on tips from the public if the public only knows what they know because of illegal actions? I.e, if I a crook breaks in to somebody's home to steal something, then finds a large quantity of drugs, I'd expect that the police would need a warrant to search the house, but surely the mere fact that the crook tipped them of doesn't mean they can't investigate? Thus I'm guessing that the real issue here is weather the police would have needed a warrant to have a look at the computer while it was in repair. What is precedence on that? Does the police need a warrant to search your car while it is being repaired, or can the mechanic just let them have a look around if they want to ?
"Circuit City employees discovered the child pornography while perusing Kenneth Sodomsky's hard drive for files to test the burner"
That's right your Honor, we were just looking for some jpegs and avis to test the burner with.
The ones that have flesh-colored icons work are best for testing burners.
-The Car Analogy (obligatory): take to mechanic for repair, leave illegal material in an unlocked glovebox. Fuses are in the glovebox, mechanic finds illegal material. Arrested, trail court dismisses on evidentiary grounds, prosecution appeal currently pending. Al Sharpton somehow becomes involved in media coverage.
-The Kitchen Appliance Analogy: take mini fridge in for repair. Leave severed hand of (former) roommate in freezer. Hand is found when test of ice cube tray attempted. Convicted to 30 year sentence, paroled in 9 years. Begin anew with career as tech security consultant.
-The Post Office Analogy: Take large, heavy package to post office. Deliver using media mail rate, the cheapest shipping option. Miss sign claiming that any media mail package is subject to inspection by any PO employee. Box is lined with child pornography. Arrested, sentenced in federal court, killed in prison after 2 years.
-The 19th Century Tech Analogy: take daguerreotype plates in for annual silver halide tune up and focus lens coal-cloth polishing. Leave illegal woodcuts of "ladies of the night" wearing bloomers and baring arms and shoulders(!) underneath stack of plates. Illegal woodcuts & etchings located when technician reaches bottom of stack. Immediately jailed, lynched by angry torch-bearing mob by evening. Grave marker doubles consonants and adds "e"s to the ends of first and last names.
I don't know about anyone else, but 'poking around for files' is pretty damn intrusive. Just burn a couple of files on the desktop to the CD rom.
I hate child porn as much as anyone else, but this stinks of people looking for personal details on their clients that are none of their business. This shady shit has to stop.
The constitutional Right To Privacy, to the extent that it exists at all, applies only to govenment agencies.
The defendant might try bringing a civil action.
But no matter hiw you frame the issues, there is only a snowball's chance in hell that a jury will punish Circuit City for reporting a crime it discovered in the ordinary course of business.
One huge difference:
The people at the photo development place can be very sure that a person under 18 was molested by the person who brought in the roll of film.
The person with under-18 porn on their computer might never have molested a minor
Thus I think that child porn should only be considered as evidence for someone molesting a child, but not a crime in its own right, as that makes it very easy to frame someone just by emailing them some pictures. Or what if the tech in this case planted the pictures on the hard drive? And then if you make having artifically generated pictures or text stories that depict people under 18 having sex illegal, that is just crazy, as no kids were ever harmed there. What about someone under 18 taking a picture of themselves?
Of course, if you like the idea of thought police, where you can be arrested for creating something from your imagination that is evil, then where does it stop?
If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
If I had been the guy's lawyer, the first thing I would have argued is that since the evidence was not uncovered by a sworn police officer, it could have been planted. What if this guy was a rude on the clerk, who was a vindictive bastard and decided to frame him? Or maybe a jolly clerk may have decided to pull a prank that went out of control when someone in the shop contacted the police ("hey Jimbo! this guy's name is Sodomsky, guess what I found on his drive!").
Yes, the courts could have checked the last-modified filestat, but that can be tampered too.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
No-one is arguing that child porn should be protected (although elsewhere some *would* argue, that only producing it should be an offense).
What's at issue is that next time a repair guy goes through your files and sees "...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it..." and is going to report *that* too.
Next thing you know, you'll have your ass hauled from workplace to the county jail. Apologies will be slow in coming, and your work buddies may not be joining you at lunch for a while.
WHat's also at issue is that submitting a computer for repairs does not give the service people a blank check to read my email or browse through my vacation pictures. I fix my own machine, but I don't fix my car myself, and I expect the technician not to rummage through stuff I may have left in the boot, looking for thrills.
"Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
Quite directly and sensibly. As the head of the department, I'd have the guy who reported it fired. No, not because I want to protect a pedophile. But he simply has no business in a customer's personal files. Yes, in this case breaking into the privacy of the person helped discovering another crime. Yes, that's "another". Not "a", not even "a more serious".
I happen to get a lot of client PCs on my desk, for similar matters. We do forensics for various high profile customers who want to follow the trail when a trojan hijacks their machine and they want to have proof how it happened. Which also means we got quite a few certs from various places, private and governmental, that allow our findings to be used as evidence in a trial. Looking through a customer's personal files (or any files not related to the problem outlined in very fine detail) is simply a no-go. No matter what.
Yes, that means that I would have to let a pedophile get off the hook. By the contract between my company and the customer, and (as odd as this may sound), even by law. I must not look at those files. Having certain customers from certain companies that deal with certain topics plays a role here, but that's not the point.
Should I accidently look at a file that does not belong to the case at hand (for example, when looking for trojan screenshots and I happen to run across a porn pic that happens to be in the same location a certain trojan would put its pics, or when undeleting files and perusing the findings), I have to ignore it. I never saw it. For all I know, it does not exist.
Now, the kid who discovered that pedophile pics might consider himself being in the right. IMO, he's not. He broke the primary law of business: Don't break your contract with your customer. Don't invade your customer's (or anyone's) privacy.
Yes, I consider an invasion into privacy a bigger crime than collecting kiddy porn. In other words, our politicians are lower than pedos in my books.
We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
The kind of "Freedom" you guys enjoy in the USA has been earned. You had a great consitution and proper personal freedoms but you let various people scare you into shredding that constitution and those freedoms.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
Or better yet ... don't download child porn.
The above raises a good point -- store your data in a manner that's not easily accessed.
But, this case raises TWO different questions that are getting confused.
1 -- Did the service technician violate the privacy of the computer owner by looking at files on the hard drive that might not have been required to perform the repair work? This is a question of civil law, and possibly of the contract between the user and technician.
2 -- Can the police use the evidence found by the technician to prosecute the computer owner? This is a question of constitutional law and criminal procedure.
The answers to 1 and 2 are not necessarily linked.
The constitution provides protection against GOVERNMENT searches of your property. The government can't, without a warrant or an emergency, take your computer away and look through your files. Nor can the government pay a repairman to do what the government can't do directly--for example, if the government paid repairmen to snoop through computer.
But, the constitution doesn't say anything about what OTHER people can do. If the repairman did snoop beyond the limits of his authorization then the computer owner might be able to sue the repairman. But, just because the repairman did a bad thing doesn't mean that the protections in the constitution against government invasion are automatically triggered. Take a different example -- a burglar breaks into a home, steals a lot of stuff, and also sees child porn on the way out the door. If the burglar gives an anonymous tip to the police (or bargains for a lighter sentence in exchange for testimony) then the evidence can probably still be used, even though the burglar had no right whatsoever to be in your house. In fact, it was CRIMINAL for the burglar to be inside your house at the time he saw the child porn, but it's still probably fair game in a prosecution.
The key difference is whether the STATE has violated your right to privacy. You can't bargain with the state to set a higher or lower expectation of privacy; we have a Constitution that sets a minimum floor of privacy for everyone. But, you can negotiate with a computer repair service--if one service offers "no privacy-we'll read all your files" and the other say "complete privacy, for a little bit more money" then you get to pick which one you like, and to sue the "complete privacy" company if they break their word.
Disclaimer: Before you do something dumb, speak with YOUR attorney. I am not an attorney and the law often turns on what seem like very small differences in facts; your situation is probably different and will require personalized advice.
If I had mod points, I'd mod you insightful. It amazes me that people don't think that they'll get reported for that.
Gary Glitter got busted for that in a similar manner quite a while back. Realistically, if you hand your computer in for repair they may very well have to look at the files to figure out what's going on. Especially if they need to log in and they're on the desktop.
It does surprise me that people don't realize that computer techs have to report that sort of thing to the authorities when they find out.
"There's at least an argument that such a law would be unconstitutional as it would make computer repair technicians into agents of the state. It's one thing if they act voluntarily to report suspicious files (like here), it's another if there's a criminal penalty for failing to do so. I'm curious and will read up on it. Thanks for the tip."
It's been the case for a while that hosting providers must, by law, report child pornography when they find it. Been there, done that, got the ncmec.org login. I don't understand why extending this to repair technicians would bring up any new constitutional issues that don't already exist. Might be one of those legal elephants in the room that nobody -- not even the ACLU -- wants to touch, as it's political suicide... would you want to be the one to go to court to defend hosting providers' rights to protect kiddy porn collectors?
Sitting in my day care, the art is decopainted.
How about telling the tech to supply his own data for burning? Even if there is material on the HD that's legal, how can the tech assert he has the right to make a copy of it? E.g. if someone made movie on his PC, had to send it in for repairs and the tech makes a copy of that movie, isn't the tech liable for copyright infringement?
Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF215-Kitty_Photographer.jpg
The sad thing, this has happened. Parents in the UK have been arrested for pretty much exactly this. From what I can see, no one seriously thinks they were abusing their children - they just took a few admittedly tasteless pictures of them.
E.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elton_John Controversy struck in late September of 2007 when police confiscated a picture taken by a well known photographer by the name of Nan Goldin that featured two naked prepubescent girls. The concern surrounding the picture was the "provocative" position they were standing in. The picture was one of 4,000 pictures in John's collection. On October 27, 2007, the charges were dropped due to lack of evidence. I actually think that pictures should be legal in themselves. If they show someone committing a crime, they could be used as evidence to prosecute that person but would not become illegal in themselves. Making pictures illegal when they don't depict any criminal activity is an absurd overreaction.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
The crime of allowing your computer to keep a local digital copy of a file that someone has deemed "illegal"? Was this guy generating the CP or was he just saving photos that caught his sick fancy? Was he paying for a subscription to access areas where he could get these photos and therefore financially rewarding and encouraging another to assault a child or did he stumble accross them on *chan?
Except for the fact that he isn't arguing the point, what *proof* do we have that the tech themselves didn't plant the CP? If I had it in for someone, that'd be a pretty good start. All you have to do is mention CP and the witch hunt begins.
I know I'm going to get flamed into oblivion for this (not to mention accused of being a pedophile, homophobe and everything else in the book), but, if we take it as proven that homosexuality (being sexually aroused by your own gender) is genetic (or at least something you're born with) and therefor an "abnormality" and at best a "normal variant in human sexual preference" how is pedophilia, necrophilia, and bestiality different? Are we saying it's a choice of "lifestyle" and not something you're born with? How do we prove that?
In many countries of the world it is still illegal to be gay. If someone is born with the abnormality of being attracted to "those below the [arbitrary] age limit", and goes through life never once molesting a child, but only collects images that titillate their particular twisted interests, should they be branded a pariah and be sent to prison for years and years?
"But", you say, "seeing those pictures will encourage them to rape a child!". Hmmm... Does that mean that seeing pictures of naked men will force my gay coworker to rape me?. If I download rape photos, will I be driven to rape, should I be charged with the rapes in the photos? It's like the whole "violent games" argument all over again. Maybe this is some sort of release valve for some people.
Don't get me wrong. I think the exploitation of children is wrong, but I also think that the irrational fear and associated draconian laws are so ridiculous that we can't even hold a rational discussion on the matter any more. I mean, really, a 14 year old girl takes a picture of herself naked in the mirror with her cell-phone and she is convicted of creating and possessing child pornography. A 13 year old girl has sex with her 12 year old BF and is charged as a sexual predator and the victim? WFT?!
Something in me says that the same people who make the most noise in government about pedophilia are the ones that are probably hiding something in themselves, sorta like those politicians that bash gays so bad then get caught soliciting strange men.
C'mon people! If pedophilia is a "genetic disease" we should be working for a cure. If it is a sociopathic "choice" then we should be allowing those "suffering" from it to get treatment, not cart them off to jail.
And if someone assaults a child, charge them with the assault and lock them up. Rape is rape. Kidnapping is kidnapping. Child abuse is child abuse. There are already laws for that. Use them. But destroying someone's life because some pictures were found of a child without proper clothing on is ridiculous. Where I grew up it was normal for a girl to be married off and start having children as soon as she started menstruating. That often made her 12 or 13 years old. That was life. That's the way it had been for untold generations. Suddenly, there's something terrible about those people. My grandmother was married at 14. I guess my grandfather was a sick bastard. Funny, he never struck me that way. They were married for almost 70 years.
Well, I've got my flame-proof panties on and karma to burn. Flame on!
"terrorism" and "pedophilia" are the root passwords to the Constitution